Speaker A
So
Grace Andrews shares her journey working with Steven Bartlett on Diary of a CEO, revealing persistence, hard work, and mindset behind its success.
Key Takeaways
- Persistence and aggressive follow-up can open doors even when not actively job hunting.
- Visualizing success and committing fully to goals can drive career breakthroughs.
- Hard work and obsessing over details compound over time to create standout success.
- Building a successful brand or show requires long-term dedication and often unseen effort.
- Success in new fields can be achieved without prior experience by learning and working harder than others.
Summary
- Grace Andrews was the third hire for Steven Bartlett's Diary of a CEO and worked there for nearly five years.
- She transitioned from journalism to social media and aggressively pursued the social media manager role through persistence and personal branding.
- Diary of a CEO was always envisioned as the biggest show in the world, not just a podcast.
- The team obsessed over details and worked harder than anyone else, dedicating years to build the show's success.
- Early growth was slow with a small concentrated audience before scaling to one of the biggest podcasts globally.
- Success was driven by consistent effort, visualization, and a mindset focused on compounding progress.
- The team had no prior podcasting or media experience but learned and adapted through hard work.
- Grace emphasizes the importance of persistence, standing out, and putting in more reps than others.
- Replicating Diary of a CEO’s success is difficult without a dedicated full-time team and similar commitment.
- The story highlights the unseen groundwork behind popular brands and the value of sacrificing other life areas for career goals.
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
Welcome
Speaker B
terrifyingly big photo of my face that I can see
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in
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my periphery
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And I'll let you know it's here for the whole chat
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Yeah
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We'll just keep looking that way
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We'll keep looking that way
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Grace, welcome to Business Mastery Live
Speaker B
Thank you so much, thank you for having me
Speaker A
I want to start with the thing that obviously most people will know you for, which is Diary of a CEO, working with Steven Bartlett
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You were, I believe, was it the third hire of of Diary of a CEO
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and you were there for nearly five years, is that right?
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Done some good research
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Oh yeah
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Yeah
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I was
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um
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so
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I
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joined
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when
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so
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people
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it's
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funny
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because
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people
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uh knew Steven Bartlett back in 2020
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either if you lived in Manchester or if you worked in social media
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I was the latter
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I've born and bred in London
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but I worked in social media
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so I'd come across this guy called Steven on LinkedIn a few times
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Um
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I was progressing in sort of my freelance career
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I actually studied journalism but
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we don't need to go back into all of that
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Um I found journalism very depressing
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so I moved into social media
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Um
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and I saw this post go up on LinkedIn
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and it was Steven Bartlett on LinkedIn and he was like
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looking for a social media manager for my own brand
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And I've sat there thinking
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I wasn't in the market for a job
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I was loving freelancing
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I had these amazing clients
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I was just like finally felt like I was thriving in my career
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and then I saw this post and I was like
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if I'm going to learn from anyone in this space, it's probably going to be this guy
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So I didn't go too much about him but I just dropped the application in the same way everyone else did
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And um yeah, two weeks later I was
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let all my clients go
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was in the office
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was being told about this new podcast he wanted to start called The Diary of a CEO
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Um and yeah, it was just me the producer Jack
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who's still there, executive director and Steve
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Do you know why you picked you?
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Um
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I
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I don't know the reason
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he didn't firstly he didn't directly hire me
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he's very much was like his manager was sort of hiring at the time
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And um I was extremely, extremely persistent
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Once I had my eye set on that, I couldn't think about anything else
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I'm someone who's like an all or nothing kind of person
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And I had already sort of visualized having that role
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I that was my role
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that was my job
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that was my next job title
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So I had already mentally
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almost got the job
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I I think there's a lot about visualization now
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and manifestation and that sort of world which there's
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probably speaks a lot, you know, a lot of truth to my situation
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but I didn't know about that back then
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I was just writing in my journal like saying
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well when I you know I am now the social media manager for Steven Bartlett
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you know I hadn't even had my first interview
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but I was like so mentally there
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and so the I guess the visualization turned into action
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where I found everyone who was possibly close to Steven Bartlett
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I messaged them on LinkedIn
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I messaged them again on LinkedIn
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I found them on Instagram
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I was so annoyingly persistent
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that they kind of
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one couldn't ignore me
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And um
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I I also I guess in some ways made their job easier
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because I'd been building or as now known as a personal brand
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back then was very much just my my portfolio to attract freelance clients
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So I had a lot of evidence built up in my favor
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So I didn't need to do too much persuasion because
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they kind of could look at my Instagram and go, oh, she knows social media
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She talks about it, she educates about it
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because I was using that as my lead magnet to generate freelance clients
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So I think there's two parts of that why I was hired
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is one I was aggressively persistent
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and it's something I talk about when I I speak with a lot of university students
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and grads and like that sort of world
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and I say like that one email is going to get lost in the thousands
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like send 10 emails
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but go above and beyond, do something different, turn up, send something
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like just do something to stand out
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And so I always understood that principle and then I guess the other part of it was
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I I had the digital evidence sitting there
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So I didn't really have to do too much selling
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it already had done the selling for me
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you know, through I guess what is my personal brand now
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There's so much we could all learn from that
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And
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I mean that that persistence because I think a lot of people feel like they fear being annoying or whatever
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So I think there's a lot that can inspire us there
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So Diary of a CEO has now gone on to be one of the biggest podcasts in the world
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The second
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The second biggest
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And you were literally there from pretty much the beginning
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What can you share with the audience today about why, because so many people have podcasts
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Like what is it that you did differently that helped that become the brand that it is today?
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For us it was never a podcast, for us it was always going to be the biggest show in the world
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And I think to my point as I was kind of speaking to earlier
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I in the same way I knew that that role was going to be mine
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we never had a shadow of doubt in our mind that this show, which we always treated as a show
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which I can get on to
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was was always going to be the biggest because we were going to obsess over it more than any other team in the world could ever
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We were going to sweat the smallest of details to the point where other people would look at us and think we were completely insane
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And I think that's something you can take in any industry, in anywhere you work
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If if you are going to put in more reps than anyone else
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the compounding effect of that is probably that you're going to come out near the top as long as you don't quit
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You know
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because what actually happens isn't that people are more talented
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or people just have that like spark or whatever
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it's actually that they just put in the reps more and more and more than anybody else
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But no one sees that, right
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So like everyone looks at the Diary of a CEO now and they see it's this big show
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They want to replicate the trailers
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They want to have the success and the the scale and the achievements that they've they've now had
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But they don't see those sort of first three years, or first two years where barely anyone was listening
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Like really, truly barely anyone was listening
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Ross was
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That over
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He was
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That that was our concentrated audience
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Yeah
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Manchester and worked in the world was our sweet spot
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Um and it's funny because I think it's that classic iceberg model, isn't it
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where everyone sees that tip and they want to replicate the tip and they're obsessed with replicating the tip
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I mean it's amazing since I've left how many people are like, can you come and do what you did at the Diary of a CEO
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and copy and paste it onto ours
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I was like, unfortunately it's never going to work like that
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because we had those two years of about also a full-time team at that point of about seven of us
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working just on this one show
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So you know that scale again, it's very hard to replicate
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when I go and work with podcasts who only have the host and maybe a freelance producer
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it's a very different setup
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And I we we just worked harder than anybody else
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We said like we will become the number one show in the world
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and to do that, we worked, you know, we had breakfast, lunch and dinner together every day for two years
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Most of everything else in my life was sacrificed
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in order to get to the show to number one
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So it was never, I guess, a surprise to us when we would hit these milestones
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and everyone would like go crazy externally and we were like, yeah, we we kind of know
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that's where we're heading
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It's inevitable for us
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that that success was coming
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But it's founded on a load of sort of first principles which
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I guess we can maybe get into
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I've you've probably had people talk about the 1% mindset
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or this like compounding success or sweating the small stuff
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Like we
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none of us had also for context, none of us had ever worked in podcasting before
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None of us had really ever worked in media
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So it's not like we were taking sort of shared knowledge, we were just applying first principles
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of how to gain people's attention through this new medium of this new podcast which was exploding
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And so
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things like
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filming the thing
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for us was so obvious
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Of course you would film the podcast because how on earth are you ever going to get in front of people who are consuming video content every day
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if you don't get into their feeds
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So for us it it was things like that where, you know, people now in 2025
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are still like, oh, maybe we should film our podcast
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It's like for us that was so
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it was so inevitable because we just based ourselves on
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based our thinking on first principles which was views equals filming
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And it, you know, when you get down to the basics, it sounds so simple
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but so many people I guess overlook the the first principles
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in order to do what they think is right
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because everyone said podcast is an audio first platform
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You've got to just make it audio, audio, audio
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And we were like, no one's like discovering audio
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Everyone's discovering video every day
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So we're going to transfer that into the formats that people are consuming
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So I guess it was that sort of thinking
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that allowed us to sort of stay ahead
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What was the cost you spoke there about sacrifice
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And I know a lot of business owners struggle internally to know
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you know
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I think you use the word that obsess
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Yeah
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Like they have these goals and dreams, they want to be the number one, they want to be the best
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but they're worried then about the sacrifice
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and we hear a lot about work life balance
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What was the reality for you
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and what would you say if people are unsure how hard to work or how obsessed
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What would you your advice be
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based on your experience
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I've had the incredible honor, privilege of working alongside people like Steven himself
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but also all the CEOs we brought onto the podcast and I've worked alongside sort of CEOs
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and Spotify and all these incredible successful people, Richard Branson, blah, blah, blah
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And um there's not one of them who would ever, ever, ever tell you work life balance is a real thing
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It's it's simply not
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If you want to be one of those people
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and I'll make it really clear
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You can absolutely have work life balance if you want to continue living a balanced life
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If you want to become the top 1%, the best in the world at what you do
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there is not one person, I promise you no matter what any guru or course person is going to sell you
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at the very top who is living a work life balanced kind of scenario
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It just doesn't exist
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And I've seen it, I've seen it with
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people who have all different, you know, all different stages of their life
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uh much older, much younger, but they're all the absolute top 1% at what they do
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and all of them will bat away this idea of work life balance because to get there
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to become the 1%, you must, must, must sacrifice
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And I always say that like we live our life in these different chapters and these different phases
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and each chapter comes with like different levels of sacrifice
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You know, I was in a very privileged position where I had no responsibilities
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really, like I was the only responsibility I had in my life was myself
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And so I could be extremely selfish in my behaviors and go all in
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and be completely obsessed and all consumed by my work
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And I saw, you know, people at different stages of their lives who had to sort of retract a little bit and then give back a little bit
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and I think it's a constant give and take
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and rather than thinking about work life balance, which I've always found incredibly jarring because it suggests that work is one thing
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and the entire rest of your life is another thing and that you have to weigh them up against each other
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For me, work is one element of my life rather than weighing them up against each other
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I also have relationships, I also have family, I also have hobbies and things that bring me joy
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And for me it's a case of looking at all of those different buckets within my life and looking at how I'm spreading and filling those buckets at any one time
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And if I feel really out of kilter at any one point, I'm going, okay
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which bucket needs topping up right now, you know
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It's a case of looking at it more holistically
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and really going, okay, I've really for the last few years, and which is the truth
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you know, been very selfish in my relationships
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And so since leaving the Diary of a CEO, I've absolutely prioritized that area
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I prioritized that space because I was neglecting it for a long time
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And I do think it comes to a point where you have to, you know, where the life tells you in one way or another
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it will trip you up somehow and go, you need to reset your buckets
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Like I do believe that's the case
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I love what you said because I I speak a lot about it being seasons
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and I think it's knowing, having the self-awareness to know what season am I in right now
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I also spoke to Dr. Arie that I know was a guest who was on Diary of a CEO
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and I always remember him saying, we don't have to call it sacrifice, it's just a choice
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Like understanding every choice you make has an upside and a downside and as long as you're clear and comfortable with that
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You don't have to call it sacrifice
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because it comes with that connotation, oh, I'm saying yes to this, but I'm saying no to my friends
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Well, no, you're just choosing this, you're saying yes to this and then there will also be opportunities to say yes to friends
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maybe in another season and things like that
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And I think that can be useful when you're weighing it up in your mind
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So all those years and that that, you know, real intense workload working closely with Steven, the team, the guests that you brought on and so on
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I know this must be like hard question to answer
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but is there one like key lesson or something that you took from that that's now a real guiding force as you move forward
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Like one of the main things that stands out
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Can I be annoying and say two
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We'd love you to
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Like you say 10, we just want to get as much as we can, Grace
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Okay, there's there's three principles that I would say are the things that I've really
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when I look at what I've taken from my time there that I'm now using every single day in everything I'm doing
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So for context, I've left with like not really a clear, I guess, route or path of exactly where I want to go
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I've given myself this grace period to sort of figure it out
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Um
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and but there are principles that I've sort of extracted and taken
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The first one being failure is feedback
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So for us, failure at Diary of a CEO was probably one of the most critical principles that allowed us to stay as far ahead of the competition as we did
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We were so willing and in fact eager to fail as often as we possibly could
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And I know a lot of companies and organizations say that
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They're like, we like failure
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and then behind the scenes they're like, if they fail, they're getting fired
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You know
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For us it was like failure was actually genuinely within our infrastructure encouraged
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to the point where we had, they have, we had a head of failure
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and her entire job was to orchestrate as many experiments as possible to encourage the learning as quickly as we possibly could
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Because our theory was we're going to have to fail to find the right thing
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If we can fail as quickly as possible, we're going to get to the answer before anyone else does
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So failure for us was celebrated, we were incentivized to fail
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And I think that mindset is so rare
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I think people, and I've seen it now since I've left, I've worked in sort of different organizations
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whether workshop and consultancy or whatever
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and they're like, yeah, yeah, we encourage failure
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And then it's like, well, how are you incentivizing it
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What's the support system so people feel actually encouraged to fail or safe to fail
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An environment where they actually feel like if they fail, the world's not going to, you know, burn in front of them
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and they're not going to lose their jobs
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So for us, we were just looking every single day for the opportunity to experiment and try something
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And it did not matter if that experiment resulted in success or failure
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because for us it was just one step closer to the right answer
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So we we celebrated the input rather than the output
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which I think is a a mindset I play with every single day
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I have zero fear, zero fear about failure
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because for me it's either a learning or a success
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And I think that is fundamentally one of the best lessons I could have ever learned
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The second one is this idea of 1% which I spoke to earlier
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The 1% mindset is
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I'm sure you've all come across it in different schools, different things to different people
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different people write about it in different ways
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Essentially the idea that every single day you're looking at edging 1% closer to your goal
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So rather than trying to do 100% overnight, it's what's the one thing I can do tomorrow
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that's going to edge me closer to my goal
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Because ultimately if you look back in a year
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you've moved X number of percentage along the along the way
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and it's not as scary or it's not as daunting
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It's like what's the what's the one little thing that I can change or alter or control today
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that's going to edge me closer to my end goal
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And I guess that leads into the third principle which is like sweat the small stuff
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Most people will tell you not to
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Most people say don't bother, don't sweat the small stuff
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don't worry about it, just go, you know, go big
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just like forget about it, it's fine, it will all figure itself out
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We were obsessed, like you would absolutely think we were insane
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if I were to go into all the little things we obsessed over
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We sweat the small stuff more than anybody else
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Like the temperature in the room
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The temperature in the room
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The music that the guests
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We would research the music that the guest would be most comfortable and relaxed to
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that they used when they wanted to calm down or relax
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and we'd play that when they entered the room
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so that they were in the mindset to share more information
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to feel comfortable more quickly
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so we didn't have to do too much warm up
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How did you see
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We had a whole research department
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I tried to find it for you
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I was like
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I'll forget it already
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I keep some some things close to my chest
Speaker A
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Speaker A
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Speaker A
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Speaker A
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Speaker A
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Speaker B
I think, you know, we had a whole research department
Speaker B
and they were phenomenal, they do research calls in the same way you would if you were going on a Piers Morgan interview
Speaker B
You know, they would interview the mom, the dad, the sister, the girlfriend, the brother, they would do all these research calls before they'd find out all of the information that the person would sit in the chair and be like, how did you find that out about me
Speaker B
Like almost a bit terrified
Speaker B
Um and you know, Steve would present them with photos and it it just created this
Speaker B
depth of conversation that nobody could compete with
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But we did so, you know, we created
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we had this whole vehicle made with Mercedes that was the Diary of a CEO vehicle
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that we would pick up our guests in
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very specifically so the experience started
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we were controlling all of the sort of different environmental factors from the minute they were picked up wherever they were picked up from
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And there were messages in there, there were gifts in there, you know, we we controlled as much as we possibly could
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from the minute they were in our in our care to the minute they left
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And I mean, we controlled the CO2 levels in the room
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Like I you would think we were crazy
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Like you would think we were crazy
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But that's how you get your guests to cry, right
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That's what you
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This is we've found the secret now
Speaker A
how they break the toughest people
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But I mean people would look at what you were doing there, Grace, and they'd be like, that's the dream
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Like what an amazing life, job and and position you're in
Speaker A
I imagine then coming into the decision to leave is quite a big decision
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How did you come to that decision
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It's very hard spending every single day around incredible, creative entrepreneurs
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who are building the most incredible, exciting tech, service
Speaker B
consumer product and not get the edge to want to do it yourself
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I I remember I was in a taxi a few years ago and getting got chatting with him
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and they would always, oh, you work for the Diary of a CEO
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you'd have a good conversation
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And um he was like, well, surely you're going to go and do your own thing
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And I was like, what do you mean, of course I'm not going to, like I'm where would I possibly go
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This is the best place in the entire world
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How could I go and ever leave and do it
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I have I don't want to be an entrepreneur
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I've seen how hard it is, I'm not interested in that
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I want to be behind the scenes, I want to be part of the team
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And then something's and then that switch happens and you go, oh, actually I do think I want to be the guy who the girl who builds something
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and I do want to create something for myself
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And I thought I've been blessed with this crazy opportunity where I've been able to absorb
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either via osmosis or via learning or whatever it was
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insight, knowledge, wisdom, experience that, you know, most people pay a lot of money to be exposed to
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And I thought it'd be a real shame if I didn't sort of act on that
Speaker B
At the same time, I'd been encouraged within work directly by Steve to build my personal brand
Speaker B
Um and essentially what happened is my
Speaker B
I I mean my last week at work, I did I we work in the office five days a week
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I was in every single day but I also delivered four talks in person that week
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So I was doing two jobs, I was doing I was living two lives
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and I I saw this opportunity where the speaking, the content, the creative, the personal brand had given me this
Speaker B
this opportunity to go and have this grace period and this grace, pardon the pun, to figure it out
Speaker B
And um
Speaker B
I was also quite I had we had really honest conversations at work
Speaker B
which I'm very grateful for
Speaker B
and they said like, I think it's I think you've got to go for it
Speaker B
Like you've got to go and seize this opportunity
Speaker B
And they're like, we'll always be here
Speaker B
I'm very much still involved, like you can't once you're part of that cult
Speaker B
you can't you can't get away
Speaker B
Um
Speaker B
but it was I think it's a really interesting time for like employee brands, personal brands
Speaker B
Um and I think I almost am a case study for what we're starting to see happen within businesses
Speaker B
now where employee brands are encouraged to be built
Speaker B
but the the downside to that is the likelihood is they're, you know, if they're only good at it
Speaker B
their brand will get so big that they will probably leave
Speaker B
But the reality is is your A players, your best people are probably going to leave anyway
Speaker B
So you might as well get them on board and allow them to become an ambassador for your brand during that time that you do have them
Speaker B
So it's it's a really interesting time
Speaker A
Let's talk about being a creator entrepreneur and this kind of space that you're now operating in
Speaker A
People are not sure what that actually is
Speaker A
Do you want to just tell people what that is and kind of what the main things are that you're doing now
Speaker B
Yeah
Speaker B
So
Speaker B
um
Speaker B
I guess this term creator entrepreneur is quite new because
Speaker B
what we've seen for the last 10 years within the creator economy is this emergence of the influencer
Speaker B
And the influencer was someone who shared content in exchange for uh monetization, right
Speaker B
So they would share links, brand deals, affiliate
Speaker B
all of that sort of thing
Speaker B
Very transactional
Speaker B
They'd be used essentially to reach the audience that they'd created through their content
Speaker B
And that was how they monetized
Speaker B
So this this influencer blew up and everybody sort of left their jobs to become an influencer
Speaker B
And it's now there was a stat that came out with the IAB this week last week that one in three people in the UK are now consider themselves like a creator or an influencer
Speaker B
which is just this huge crazy phenomenon
Speaker B
And what we've seen in that sort of industry in that space is
Speaker B
people become very tired of being influenced
Speaker B
So the demand for influencers in this it's just not the same as what it used to be
Speaker B
So whether you've built an audience of 100,000, a million, 10 million, the saturation within that space
Speaker B
and the fatigue audience are feeling towards influencers mean that they're
Speaker B
the demand is shifting
Speaker B
And what we're seeing in this shift is the emergence of the creator entrepreneur
Speaker B
So what's the difference between an influencer and a creator entrepreneur
Speaker B
An influencer, as I said, is very transactional
Speaker B
So it's a case of, hi, we would like you to sell X number of products, can you post two pieces of content
Speaker B
Yes, deal done
Speaker B
It's very superficial, it's very transactional
Speaker B
and it serves a means to an end
Speaker B
So the content is designed to sale to sell or to convert something
Speaker B
The idea of a creator entrepreneur is that
Speaker B
yes, they might still
Speaker B
sorry
Speaker B
they might still work with brand partners
Speaker B
but it's in a completely different capacity
Speaker B
So we're seeing the likes of Alex Earl having, which is who's one of the biggest creators in one of the biggest influencers or creators in the US
Speaker B
one of the biggest people on TikTok, um being given equity within Poppy
Speaker B
which then went on to sell for two billion to Pepsi last year
Speaker B
We're seeing Anna Archer, who's a running influencer from London, being given equity in Runner, the app
Speaker B
which then went on to be acquired by Strava this year
Speaker B
And it's it's much more about embedding the creators into long-term brand partnerships
Speaker B
where they have equity and real stakes within a business because the business actually understands that that influence can push the needle
Speaker B
far greater or move the needle far more than a transactional link in their stories or a sale
Speaker B
They actually have the power to influence at scale the ultimate sale price of the business
Speaker B
if you bring them on board, bring them behind the scenes and allow them to uh dictate and communicate how how the brand dictates itself on social media, for example
Speaker B
So
Speaker B
we're seeing a massive shift of how influencer marketing is working
Speaker B
And in that same way, these influencers who previously were getting all these brand deals through when it was, you know, the heyday of influencer marketing
Speaker B
are also realizing that they've built an audience that they can monetize themselves without needing the third party of a brand or a business
Speaker B
So they're going, okay, I've built this audience who are very engaged with me
Speaker B
and they're very interested in me
Speaker B
What can I build as a product or a business myself that I can sell directly to my audience
Speaker B
that doesn't need to be sponsored by a third party
Speaker B
They have control back
Speaker B
So that's the difference between I guess an influencer and a creator entrepreneur
Speaker B
A creator entrepreneur is someone who is building audience first or they have built audience first and they're creating product second to sell to the audience they've created
Speaker B
It's why we're seeing this absolute boom in creator led businesses and celebrity led brands
Speaker B
because what they've done for the last few years or what they're doing is building an incredibly dedicated, high trust, high loyalty, engaged audience
Speaker B
and then now figuring what the product fit is going to be to sell to them
Speaker B
So previously we would have seen businesses be built that it would be product first, audience second
Speaker B
I'm building audience first, whilst I figure out what the product is
Speaker B
I'm going to sell to my audience
Speaker B
So I'm building audience on Instagram, LinkedIn and more recently YouTube
Speaker B
which I absolutely am obsessed with
Speaker B
And for me it's build the audience first and let the product follow
Speaker A
Why have you chosen to go down the YouTube route
Speaker A
I know you've recently started a vlog and it's like every single week
Speaker A
And they're quite long, right
Speaker A
They're like 40 odd minutes
Speaker A
an hour long
Speaker B
My poor editor
Speaker A
So it's a lot
Speaker B
Yeah
Speaker A
right
Speaker A
So why are you choosing to invest in YouTube
Speaker A
And again, what's some of the tips you'd give us
Speaker B
Yeah
Speaker B
I guess, so look, I have a slight bias
Speaker B
because we built the Diary of a CEO up on YouTube
Speaker B
It was our primary platform
Speaker B
And we did that for two reasons
Speaker B
One, in the podcasting world, YouTube has discoverability, right
Speaker B
So within podcasting until very recently, none of the platforms have been set up for discoverability
Speaker B
So if you're a new podcast
Speaker B
and you've set yourself up on the audio apps
Speaker B
there's very little chance that you're going to be seen unless someone in your WhatsApp group sends you the link to it
Speaker B
There's very little discoverability
Speaker B
Whereas on YouTube, the algorithm will put your content in front of new people in the same way as the other social media apps do
Speaker B
So that's why it was always a priority for us
Speaker B
The second reason it was because of the data it provides
Speaker B
There is no other platform, there's no other platform that provides the amount of data YouTube does
Speaker B
You get pages and pages and pages of insights and analytics and demographics and data
Speaker B
And data is power, right
Speaker B
The more information you have, the more personalized the experience can be for the audience
Speaker B
And so we were completely obsessed with gathering as much data as we possibly could
Speaker B
And so for us, that's why YouTube was always the priority in the early days
Speaker B
What we didn't quite realize
Speaker B
was the value of a subscriber on YouTube versus the value of a follower on another social media app
Speaker B
like a short form social media app
Speaker B
And so if you think about it
Speaker B
if someone hits subscribe on your YouTube, they may have watched 10, 20 minutes of your content
Speaker B
If someone hits follow on Instagram, they may have watched three seconds
Speaker B
So they've already spent 10 to 20 minutes with you
Speaker B
which you may never get from a follower on a short form social media app
Speaker B
So the intensity, the loyalty, the engagement that comes from just one subscriber on YouTube
Speaker B
I think, and this is just my sort of analysis from from building it myself recently
Speaker B
I think it's worth about 1,000 subscribers or followers on another platform
Speaker B
The value and I I've been totally blown away
Speaker B
and it's actually made me, yes, I completely understand what we built with the Diary of a CEO
Speaker B
We built it up to 12 million before I left
Speaker B
And I mean, the way they would convert when we would bring anything to like a real life tour around
Speaker B
or a product, we couldn't keep anything on the shelves for more than five minutes
Speaker B
The the loyalty was just incredible
Speaker B
So I did see that there
Speaker B
and you know when they turn
Speaker B
when they turned up to events, it was it was so powerful
Speaker B
and it was so moving
Speaker B
and it was so the parasocial relationship was very, very strong
Speaker B
But when I've what I've experienced for myself is is the same
Speaker B
and I think that's what's really surprised me because
Speaker B
it took a really long time for us to build up that 12 million, but I've only I've been going for a few weeks
Speaker B
and I'm I don't know, it was 7,000 subscribers on YouTube
Speaker B
And the the intensity of a subscriber on YouTube, I've already already seen to be worth so much more
Speaker B
than the audience I build up on Instagram
Speaker B
So for me now it's about going all in and it's actually made me completely reframe
Speaker B
how I approach the platform with uh brands I consult for
Speaker B
And for me it's like, yeah, you may only have a much smaller audience on YouTube
Speaker B
but if they click subscribe, they are in
Speaker B
They're your bottom of funnel clients, bottom of funnel customers
Speaker B
And I would be looking at creating a series for every brand I work with going forward on YouTube
Speaker B
because I think one, the feedback you get, the data is phenomenal
Speaker B
But imagine like I so I put this vlog up
Speaker B
I've made myself accountable for 52 weeks
Speaker B
I'm putting a vlog up every Friday
Speaker B
Um I have never in my life, and I've been going for five years on my own personal social channels
Speaker B
had people message me going at 8:01 on Friday
Speaker B
Where's the vlog, where's the vlog, where's the vlog
Speaker B
And I'm like, whoa, guys
Speaker B
two secs
Speaker A
Like it's just uploaded
Speaker B
It's gone
Speaker A
now
Speaker B
It's gone
Speaker B
Flash in the pan
Speaker B
These things always happen
Speaker B
Um and for the just on that note, like I would say if you're a brand owner, you don't always have to jump on every single trend that comes your way
Speaker B
Like please don't
Speaker B
Please, it's people see straight through it
Speaker B
And really you should only be leaning into trends if they feel very aligned with the with your audience and where you want to go
Speaker A
make sure you make it key, isn't it
Speaker A
If you're just jumping on everything, people you lose trust, right
Speaker B
And I think
Speaker B
so yeah, so with Instagram, for example, right now, what we're seeing is like a follower count matters less than ever before
Speaker B
So the probably the last metric you should be measuring as a as a means of a KPI or success is your follower account
Speaker B
Because
Speaker B
what we're seeing with the likes of for you pages on TikTok or your explore page on Instagram
Speaker B
where most people are spending their time
Speaker B
it's not dictated by follower account
Speaker B
So it actually doesn't matter if you've got zero followers or a million followers
Speaker B
you can go viral tomorrow
Speaker B
So follower account has become less meaningful than ever before
Speaker B
It's why influencers are also sort of dying on this hill
Speaker B
in some to some degree
Speaker B
not the not the market
Speaker B
not the whole industry for sure
Speaker B
but the the way we've worked with influencers in the past because a follower account did used to dictate
Speaker B
the potential ROI of the campaign
Speaker B
Whereas now, a follower account is almost futile
Speaker B
So I would say when it comes to Instagram
Speaker B
yes, there are going to be waves of algorithm changes
Speaker B
and we're definitely going through one now
Speaker B
where engagement is at an all-time low
Speaker B
You've got to get super, super clear on why you're what you're doing on that platform
Speaker B
and who you're trying to speak to
Speaker B
And then set your KPIs and measurements of success up via that goal
Speaker B
Because ultimately, if you're trying to convert, I don't know
Speaker B
three new clients a month or whatever it is
Speaker B
three new clients a quarter
Speaker B
you need three people
Speaker B
You don't need 500,000 people viewing a reels
Speaker B
You don't need 400,000 people following you
Speaker B
You need to reach those right three people
Speaker B
So I would be obsessing over how to get in front of that audience
Speaker B
And it's also worth saying like Instagram might not be your best platform to do that
Speaker B
Instagram is one of many free social media marketing tools that we can take advantage of
Speaker B
There are still, do you know the the number one still most used social media app
Speaker B
Facebook
Speaker B
So we're very quick to sort of jump on the platforms that everyone says we need to be on
Speaker B
We need to be on TikTok, we need to be on Instagram
Speaker B
All this new platforms emerging, we need to be the first people on there
Speaker B
Please be dictated by your audience
Speaker B
not by like your desires for where you want to show up
Speaker B
And your goals
Speaker B
So I'm I'm very aware that lots of people I'm working with, they're all really struggling with engagement right now
Speaker B
And yes, I could give you a formula for like a viral reel
Speaker B
It's not going to serve you
Speaker B
because the reality is virality is going to bring a load of eyeballs in
Speaker B
and probably none of them are going to be relevant for your end goal
Speaker B
which is a conversion to a paying consumer
Speaker B
So I think it's really important that we just get really clear on what we're trying to achieve on this platform
Speaker B
as a marketing tool
Speaker B
Let's remember
Speaker B
We always drop the marketing part of social media
Speaker B
We're like, oh, we're on social media
Speaker B
It's social media marketing
Speaker B
It is a marketing platform whether we like it or not
Speaker B
we're being sold to the minute we go on these apps
Speaker B
So you've got to get really clear on who you're marketing to and why you're marketing to them
Speaker B
and set up your, please set up your metrics of measurement based on that
Speaker B
Because anything like a follower or a like, they're just vanity metrics
Speaker B
They're just serving the ego
Speaker B
They're not serving the business
Speaker B
I can assure you
Speaker A
Why have you chosen to go down the YouTube route
Speaker A
I know you've recently started a vlog and it's like every single week
Speaker A
And they're quite long, right
Speaker A
They're like 40 odd minutes
Speaker A
an hour long
Speaker B
My poor editor
Speaker A
So it's a lot
Speaker B
Yeah
Speaker A
right
Speaker A
So why are you choosing to invest in YouTube
Speaker A
And again, what's some of the tips you'd give us
Speaker B
Yeah
Speaker B
I guess, so look, I have a slight bias
Speaker B
because we built the Diary of a CEO up on YouTube
Speaker B
It was our primary platform
Speaker B
And we did that for two reasons
Speaker B
One, in the podcasting world, YouTube has discoverability, right
Speaker B
So within podcasting until very recently, none of the platforms have been set up for discoverability
Speaker B
So if you're a new podcast
Speaker B
and you've set yourself up on the audio apps
Speaker B
there's very little chance that you're going to be seen unless someone in your WhatsApp group sends you the link to it
Speaker B
There's very little discoverability
Speaker B
Whereas on YouTube, the algorithm will put your content in front of new people in the same way as the other social media apps do
Speaker B
So that's why it was always a priority for us
Speaker B
The second reason it was because of the data it provides
Speaker B
There is no other platform, there's no other platform that provides the amount of data YouTube does
Speaker B
You get pages and pages and pages of insights and analytics and demographics and data
Speaker B
And data is power, right
Speaker B
The more information you have, the more personalized the experience can be for the audience
Speaker B
And so we were completely obsessed with gathering as much data as we possibly could
Speaker B
And so for us, that's why YouTube was always the priority in the early days
Speaker B
What we didn't quite realize
Speaker B
was the value of a subscriber on YouTube versus the value of a follower on another social media app
Speaker B
like a short form social media app
Speaker B
And so if you think about it
Speaker B
if someone hits subscribe on your YouTube, they may have watched 10, 20 minutes of your content
Speaker B
If someone hits follow on Instagram, they may have watched three seconds
Speaker B
So they've already spent 10 to 20 minutes with you
Speaker B
which you may never get from a follower on a short form social media app
Speaker B
So the intensity, the loyalty, the engagement that comes from just one subscriber on YouTube
Speaker B
I think, and this is just my sort of analysis from from building it myself recently
Speaker B
I think it's worth about 1,000 subscribers or followers on another platform
Speaker B
The value
Speaker B
and I I've been totally blown away
Speaker B
and it's actually made me, yes, I completely understand what we built with the Diary of a CEO
Speaker B
We built it up to 12 million before I left
Speaker B
And I mean, the way they would convert when we would bring anything to like a real life tour around
Speaker B
or a product, we couldn't keep anything on the shelves for more than five minutes
Speaker B
The loyalty was just incredible
Speaker B
So I did see that there
Speaker B
and you know when they turn
Speaker B
when they turned up to events, it was it was so powerful
Speaker B
and it was so moving
Speaker B
and it was so the parasocial relationship was very, very strong
Speaker B
But what I've what I've experienced for myself is is the same
Speaker B
and I think that's what's really surprised me because
Speaker B
it took a really long time for us to build up that 12 million, but I've only I've been going for a few weeks
Speaker B
and I'm I don't know, it was 7,000 subscribers on YouTube
Speaker B
And the the intensity of a subscriber on YouTube, I've already already seen to be worth so much more
Speaker B
than the audience I build up on Instagram
Speaker B
So for me now it's about going all in and it's actually made me completely reframe
Speaker B
how I approach the platform with uh brands I consult for
Speaker B
And for me it's like, yeah, you may only have a much smaller audience on YouTube
Speaker B
but if they click subscribe, they are in
Speaker B
They're your bottom of funnel clients, bottom of funnel customers
Speaker B
And I would be looking at creating a series for every brand I work with going forward on YouTube
Speaker B
because I think one, the feedback you get, the data is phenomenal
Speaker B
But imagine like I so I put this vlog up
Speaker B
I've made myself accountable for 52 weeks
Speaker B
I'm putting a vlog up every Friday
Speaker B
I have never in my life, and I've been going for five years on my own personal social channels
Speaker B
had people message me going at 8:01 on Friday
Speaker B
Where's the vlog, where's the vlog, where's the vlog
Speaker B
And I'm like, whoa, guys
Speaker B
two secs
Speaker A
Like it's just uploaded
Speaker B
It's gone
Speaker A
now
Speaker B
It's gone
Speaker B
Flash in the pan
Speaker B
These things always happen
Speaker B
Um and for the just on that note, like I would say if you're a brand owner, you don't always have to jump on every single trend that comes your way
Speaker B
Like please don't
Speaker B
Please, it's people see straight through it
Speaker B
And really you should only be leaning into trends if they feel very aligned with the with your audience and where you want to go
Speaker A
make sure you make it key, isn't it
Speaker A
If you're just jumping on everything, people you lose trust, right
Speaker B
And I think
Speaker B
so yeah, so with Instagram, for example, right now, what we're seeing is like a follower count matters less than ever before
Speaker B
So the probably the last metric you should be measuring as a as a means of a KPI or success is your follower account
Speaker B
Because
Speaker B
what we're seeing with the likes of for you pages on TikTok or your explore page on Instagram
Speaker B
where most people are spending their time
Speaker B
it's not dictated by follower account
Speaker B
So it actually doesn't matter if you've got zero followers or a million followers
Speaker B
you can go viral tomorrow
Speaker B
So follower account has become less meaningful than ever before
Speaker B
It's why influencers are also sort of dying on this hill
Speaker B
in some to some degree
Speaker B
not the not the market
Speaker B
not the whole industry for sure
Speaker B
but the the way we've worked with influencers in the past because a follower account did used to dictate
Speaker B
the potential ROI of the campaign
Speaker B
Whereas now, a follower account is almost futile
Speaker B
So I would say when it comes to Instagram
Speaker B
yes, there are going to be waves of algorithm changes
Speaker B
and we're definitely going through one now
Speaker B
where engagement is at an all-time low
Speaker B
You've got to get super, super clear on why you're what you're doing on that platform
Speaker B
and who you're trying to speak to
Speaker B
And then set your KPIs and measurements of success up via that goal
Speaker B
Because ultimately
Speaker B
if you're trying to convert, I don't know, three new clients a month or whatever it is
Speaker B
three new clients a quarter
Speaker B
you need three people
Speaker B
You don't need 500,000 people viewing a reels
Speaker B
You don't need 400,000 people following you
Speaker B
You need to reach those right three people
Speaker B
So I would be obsessing over how to get in front of that audience
Speaker B
And it's also worth saying like Instagram might not be your best platform to do that
Speaker B
Instagram is one of many free social media marketing tools that we can take advantage of
Speaker B
There are still, do you know the the number one still most used social media app
Speaker B
Facebook
Speaker B
So we're very quick to sort of jump on the platforms that everyone says we need to be on
Speaker B
We need to be on TikTok, we need to be on Instagram
Speaker B
All this new platforms emerging, we need to be the first people on there
Speaker B
Please be dictated by your audience
Speaker B
not by like your desires for where you want to show up
Speaker B
And your goals
Speaker B
So I'm I'm very aware that lots of people I'm working with, they're all really struggling with engagement right now
Speaker B
And yes, I could give you a formula for like a viral reel
Speaker B
It's not going to serve you
Speaker B
because the reality is virality is going to bring a load of eyeballs in
Speaker B
and probably none of them are going to be relevant for your end goal
Speaker B
which is a conversion to a paying consumer
Speaker B
So I think it's really important that we just get really clear on what we're trying to achieve on this platform
Speaker B
as a marketing tool
Speaker B
Let's remember
Speaker B
We always drop the marketing part of social media
Speaker B
We're like, oh, we're on social media
Speaker B
It's social media marketing
Speaker B
It is a marketing platform
Speaker B
whether we like it or not, we're being sold to the minute we go on these apps
Speaker B
So you've got to get really clear on who you're marketing to and why you're marketing to them
Speaker B
and set up your, please set up your metrics of measurement based on that
Speaker B
Because anything like a follower or a like, they're just vanity metrics
Speaker B
They're just serving the ego
Speaker B
They're not serving the business
Speaker B
I can assure you
Speaker A
What's next for you
Speaker A
And do you have a strategy
Speaker A
Is it just audience growth and C
Speaker A
or is there a long-term vision and strategy
Speaker B
Um
Speaker B
speaking to a strategist
Speaker B
Um
Speaker B
I
Speaker B
a little bit of both
Speaker B
I think I'm very
Speaker B
I think there's a lot of things that have come my way in recent years that if I hadn't been open at the right just open to opportunity
Speaker B
they wouldn't have landed in my lap
Speaker B
And if I try to be strategic and plan too much
Speaker B
I wouldn't have been so open to the opportunities that presented themselves to me
Speaker B
I do think I'm now in a stage where obviously when you go out by yourself, you've you've got to make sure there's there's
Speaker B
uh there's opportunity and invest, you know, all the things coming in at the right time
Speaker B
and cash flow and all of that sort of thing
Speaker B
So I have to get a bit more strategic
Speaker B
So I'm thinking about
Speaker B
um
Speaker B
I'm thinking more a bit about it holistically though
Speaker B
I'm thinking about like who do I want to be known for
Speaker B
When I leave a room, how do I want to make people feel
Speaker B
Um what's the three things I want people to think about when they think of me
Speaker B
Um and then how can I build product around that sort of emotion and feeling and connection that I'm building with my audience
Speaker B
So I would say there's definitely elements of like strategic, holistic thinking, bigger picture thinking
Speaker B
will I also post something that comes to me like that and I feel very emotional
Speaker B
uh you know, connected to the topic
Speaker B
or I feel very emotionally charged about something
Speaker B
Absolutely
Speaker B
And I think that's
Speaker B
Um
Speaker B
I think you've got to always have room for that, you know
Speaker B
That sort of reactive um
Speaker B
moment or being willing to sort of pivot or change direction when something comes your way
Speaker B
But um
Speaker B
yeah, I'm just sort of sitting in this time
Speaker B
where I'm doing a lot of this sort of thing
Speaker B
I'm creating a lot of content
Speaker B
I'm doing a sort of exploring a little bit of workshop and consultancy
Speaker B
uh working with different types of people
Speaker B
so that probably by this time next year, I'll be like, yeah, this is who I am, this is what I want to do
Speaker B
But I'm allowing myself this time to explore because
Speaker B
I spent the last sort of five years following my calendar every single day
Speaker B
minute by minute, hour by hour
Speaker B
and being dictated by lots of other people
Speaker B
And so now I'm just sort of sitting in this moment, allowing my gut to do a little bit of the talking as well
Speaker B
thinking
Speaker B
and um
Speaker B
yeah, just really enjoying it
Speaker A
And I find that that's where a lot of the magic comes sometimes
Speaker A
where you pause and you actually have that space to explore
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to try stuff
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And I'm very excited, I feel like you join us at an interesting moment
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It'll be it'll be exciting to see where you are a year from now
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Grace, thank you so much
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I want to give a few moments to if anyone wants to ask a few quick fire questions
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Get get yourselves ready if you've got a question
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Um the final question that I always ask guests on my podcast is
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Grace, what is your personal definition of success
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Um
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finishing the day and feeling finishing every day or any day
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and feeling that sense of fullness and fulfillment
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whether it's with work, family, health, whatever it is
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It's like feeling that sense of fullness
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Um where you finish the day and you're like, yeah
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I did everything I could to to feel that sense of fulfillment, of fullness today
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Um
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I think that's what success feels like to me
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Give it for Grace, everyone
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Right
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Hands in the air
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Anyone got a quick fire question
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We've literally got a couple of minutes if anyone wants to ask
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Right
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Helen, it's up to you
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You've been bloody mic
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Right
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Here we go
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I've got to be
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doing everything
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Am I on, Darren
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Am I
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Turn me on, Darren
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Right
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Here we go
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I'm just going to say, um, we'll come back in a year and tell us how you get on
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Yeah
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if you have me
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Just watch her vlog
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She'll tell you
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Anyone else
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Any quick questions
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Ross, come on
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This is your moment, man
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All I was going to say, Grace, is, um, you said that
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and I completely agree with you
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everyone that you saw who was a CEO who had like achieved really, really big stuff had had found there was no balance
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in terms of like they just gone all in on on on that thing
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and they'd made sacrifice
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Is there any other
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was was there like any other universal attributes you you just felt across the board these people had
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Um
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what's a nice way to put it
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Um like psychotic obsession
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Right
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Like obsession to the point where I don't think they think about anything else
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at any minute of any hour of any day
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Um
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I that there's someone who writes on Instagram about it
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and they capture it really nicely
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I can't remember the name right now
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And um
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it's that sort of granular like that just live and breathe and sweat and dream about the thing they're building and the thing they're working on
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Um I also think the other thing would probably be that the most successful people were all able to separate their ego from from what they were achieving
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I think there was a middle, a middle group of people
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who had maybe not achieved the great heights of success of your Richard Branson's, your like Whitney Wolf herds, your Amy grades
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your those sort of people
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Um and they weren't able to separate their ego from what they were doing
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which chained them down to wherever they were
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and they couldn't break through that ceiling
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Whereas I think when you're able to remove your ego, you become less romantic about outcomes
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and it becomes much more dictated by numbers and people
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and and the reality of the situation
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And the best entrepreneurs across the board, whether they were I worked at the privilege of working with all of the um
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brands that Steve invested in for Dragons Den
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So some really early stage entrepreneurs and some sort of more middle stage entrepreneurs
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And um as soon as they could stop being romantic about their idea or romantic about the outcome
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and your ego is involved
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it's like you've got blinkers on and know what you can't hear anything else
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anyone's saying or any advice
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you don't take anything in
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And you think you're the best at everything
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and you think no one could do it like you can
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And then when you drop that, it actually just becomes about
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how can we make the best thing possible here
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And that might be 50 iterations on from what you've currently got
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But you're willing to experiment, test and like be fed the listen to the results that come in
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So I would say like unwavering obsession
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and then at the same time losing, removing your ego from whatever you're creating
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I think they were like the most common traits
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Amazing
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Well, I'll have to leave it there
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Can we give a massive round of applause for Grace
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Thank you
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Grace Andrews, everybody
Topics:Grace AndrewsSteven BartlettDiary of a CEOpodcast successsocial media managerpersonal brandingpersistencebusiness masterycontent creationcareer growth
