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[music] Welcome [music] to Say More from Boston Globe Opinion. I'm Shirley Le Young. This is a special episode of the podcast because we recorded [music] it live at Globe Summit at the House of Blues in Boston.
Ben Cohen discusses Ben & Jerry's activism, corporate values, and the Free Ben & Jerry's campaign in a live Boston Globe podcast.
Key Takeaways
- Ben & Jerry's pioneered corporate activism long before it was mainstream.
- The company’s social mission remains central despite ownership changes.
- Business can be a powerful force for social good when led by strong values.
- Ben Cohen advocates for businesses to take responsibility for societal impact.
- The Free Ben & Jerry's campaign seeks to restore the company’s activist independence.
Summary
- Ben Cohen, co-founder of Ben & Jerry's, shares the company's origins and its unique blend of business and activism.
- The company was started in an old gas station in Burlington, Vermont, and became known for cheeky flavors and progressive values.
- Ben & Jerry's was sold to Unilever in 2000, with an unusual agreement to maintain an independent board to uphold its social mission.
- Over time, Unilever restricted Ben & Jerry's ability to speak out on social issues, leading to lawsuits and the Free Ben & Jerry's campaign.
- Ben Cohen explains the importance of businesses taking social responsibility beyond profit, emphasizing values-led business philosophy.
- The company has historically taken strong stances on social justice, including statements against white supremacy and support for marriage equality.
- Ben Cohen reflects on the challenges and risks of corporate activism, including potential customer alienation.
- The podcast highlights Ben & Jerry's role in proving that businesses can pursue social justice and profitability simultaneously.
- Ben Cohen discusses the broader influence of business on society and politics, advocating for corporate accountability.
- The episode was recorded live at the Boston Globe Summit and produced by Boston Globe Opinion.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Live Recording at Boston Globe Summit
- 01:16Ben & Jerry's Origins and Social Activism
- 02:24Corporate Activism and Arrests for Social Causes
- 03:59Ben's Reflection on Company Values and Social Statements
- 05:06Sale to Unilever and Independent Board Setup
- 06:17Conflict with Unilever and Free Ben & Jerry's Campaign
- 07:36Business Power and Social Responsibility
- 09:47Values-Led Business Philosophy and Mission Statement
- 11:26Closing Remarks and Production Credits
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
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Summit is one of my favorite events of the [music] year. It's a chance for the Globe to bring our journalism to life on a big stage. [music] And we get some great guests, too.
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Well, this year I got to interview a New England icon, Ben Cohen. If you don't recognize his name, you will recognize his work. You may even have a sweet spot for it. Is your spoon ready? Of course, I'm talking about Ben and Jerry's ice
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cream. I invited Ben on stage to talk about what makes him so special, his activism.
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Ben. Wow, you've got a fan base already. All righty. So far so good. So, this is going to be a real treat for anyone who's enjoyed a pint, enjoyed a pint of Ben & Jerry's. And you simply, you just say, "I don't need a bowl. Just
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give me a spoon." Right? Is that how most people enjoy Ben & Jerry's? Yeah, very much. Uh, single service pint portion. So, Ben, we have not, uh, we only just met in person today. We've talked by Zoom. So, this is really great that
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you made the trip from Vermont to be with us, uh, here today. So, I just want to remind people about, um, your company's very humble origins. Uh, Ben and Jerry started in an old gas station in Burlington, Vermont four decades ago.
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Um, and now it's this global dessert force known for its cheeky flavors like Chunky Monkey and Cherry Garcia. Um, but this company you started with Jerry Greenfield. Um, I think you guys met in the seventh grade, right?
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That's right. How—wait, remind people how you guys met in the seventh grade. Well, we were the two slowest, fattest kids in gym class.
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And, um, and one of the things that's made Ben and Jerry so special all these years, I mean, the really secret ingredient has been corporate activism.
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And you and Jerry took on social causes long before it was popular for companies to do so. And I mean, you took this stuff very seriously. I mean, you guys were arrested at least three times, maybe four, right? Yeah.
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Um, and for protesting various causes. Um, among them keeping big money out of politics, um, ending US support for Israel's war in Gaza.
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So what's the relationship between Ben the businessman and Ben the activist? Ah, that's a good question. Uh, you know, Jerry and I started the business, uh, and it was based on our values which were essentially progressive values, what kind of
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used to be American values of justice, equality, and, um, and then as the business got larger we realized that, uh, it couldn't really [clears throat] just be about the values of Jerry and myself, that the company needed to own the values and, and we, you
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know, spent quite a while trying to infuse the values into the company and we, we had no idea whether we were going to be successful. It was a difficult thing to do. And, um, what's been wonderful for me, uh, now that I'm, I'm out
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of the company is that I'll see the company do certain things and what they did was beautiful.
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I mean, the example that sticks in my mind is, uh, after the murder of George Floyd, Ben & Jerry's came out with the statement that we must dismantle white supremacy. And it was a powerful, powerful statement. I had absolutely
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nothing to do with it. And it was beautiful to see that the company had, you know, held those values inside of itself. So I, you, you are technically still an employee of Ben.
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I am. I am a, a paid employee. My title is co-founder. Uh, I don't have any authority and I don't have any responsibility.
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So [laughter] but, but I, it's a complex backstory and this is why you see Ben and Jerry's back in the news. Um, so what happened is that I'm going to give audience the cliff notes version. Um, so Ben and Jerry's, um, was
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sold, uh, in 2000, uh, to this consumer products giant Unilever. They, they make a lot of different products. Pro products like Dove, right, is among them. A lot of different products.
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Lipton, Wishbone, Almonds. Yeah. Um, and you were actually against the sale, but because of shareholder dynamics, you ended up selling. You and Jerry ended up selling. And, but what was really unusual, I didn't really believe it, um, when I first started to read this,
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uh, but they engineered this very unusual sale, built into the agreement, um, they set up an independent board and that would continue to shape the social mission. So long after Ben and Jerry were out of the day-to-day operation of
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Ben and Jerry's, this company would still to speak out on social, um, issues and, and it was great for two decades. Right.
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That's right. Really great. Um, and then Unilever stopped, they stopped letting the company speak out on social issues and Ben and Jerry's could not criticize the Trump administration or even publicly celebrate Black History Month this year, right? Is that what happened?
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Yeah. And, and then there was a lawsuit. Your independent board sued, uh, Unilever. Um, and then this year you've launched something called Free Ben and Jerry's, right? Campaign and you're trying to convince Unilever and this ice cream holding company called Magnum to, to sell
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the company to someone who's more socially responsible. Now, what I don't quite get is that when you sold Ben and Jerry's long ago, I mean, you made a lot of money. You, you are a very
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rich man, probably more money than you ever thought you would make selling ice cream, right? So why can't you just take that money and from the original sale and just spend it on, and just spend it on worthy causes? I mean, why do you
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need Ben and Jerry's the company to do good work? You know, I think that, uh, business has now become the most powerful force in our societies.
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You know, it's, it's business that determines who gets elected by, uh, political donations. It's business that determines what laws get passed through lobbying. Uh, it's business that determines the news that you see through ownership of the media. And, uh, all of
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that power, all of that, all of that is done in the narrow self-interest of business, usually without a concern for the impact on the community as a whole.
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You know, most people define a business as an entity that produces a product or provides a service.
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At Ben & Jerry's, Jerry and I started to define it differently and we said that business is a combination of organized human energy plus money which equals power.
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And so you have business that's now the most powerful force in our society. And, uh, business therefore needs to take responsibility for the quality of life in our society. Um, and that's, that's really the point that what Ben & Jerry's proved is that it's
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possible to, for a business to work to improve the quality of life for people, work to address injustices and to make money at the same time.
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Uh, you know, that goes counter to, you know, the business theory that had been taught in, uh, our colleges and universities.
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So Ben, when you and Jerry started Ben and Jerry's long ago, I mean, did you, did you predict that this might happen? I mean, did you know that business would be such a powerful force or you just guessed right?
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We, we had no idea what we were doing. We, we had no idea what was going to happen.
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We had no plans to be anything more than one homemade ice cream parlor, uh, in an old gas station.
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And so I mean, so why, um, I mean, talk about, I mean, weren't you ever worried that you would offend a customer or offend consumers by taking a stand on an issue? [gasps] You know what, what we say at Ben and
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Jerry is that we describe Ben and Jerry's business philosophy as being values-led. Uh, that's actually a term that Anita Roddick from the Body Shop coined and, uh, it's the idea that the values, the social values lead what the company does. And
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uh, our company has a three-part mission statement. It has a, a social mission, it has a product mission, and it has a financial mission. And all of those three missions are equal and interrelated.
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And so, um, based on the values, we take whatever stands are dictated. So, uh,
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to take that stand. So, yeah, that that goes with the territory. We understand that not everybody's going to agree with us. uh you know, maybe some are going to buy less ice cream or not buy it at all,
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but others are going to buy more ice cream or become new customers. And you know what we've what's been demonstrated over the 47 years that we've been in business is that as the company takes more social stands, stands that are
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controversial, we end up selling more ice cream. I mean, the reality is that a business doesn't need a 100% of the population to buy their stuff. I mean, Ben and Jerry's might have 5% of the population buying our stuff. And so,
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it's it's it's okay. It works. So, you mentioned earlier you were very proud of this moment back when Unilver was letting Ben & Jerry's, you know, really do whatever it wants with social values. Um, stayed true to its values.
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So after the murder of George George Floyd in 2020, we saw a big shift in corporate messaging um in corporate America, I mean there was this huge push to reckon with racial justice and formulate diversity campaigns in the
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business world and there were lots of statements and there were a lot of big checks written to to kind of further DEI. And so what went through your mind when you saw all these companies suddenly taking social responsibility
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seriously? I was overjoyed. I thought this was amazing. Finally, companies started to have values to to care about social issues and to use their incredible power to overcome uh you know the deficiencies in our society as a result of you know
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discrimination, ongoing oppression of of people. that's been going on for hundreds of years. And uh so it was beautiful to see that and I I applauded it.
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But now things are different. Yeah. Now things are different. So now uh you know a guy comes into the White House says DEI is bad and you know without a peep all these companies just kind of throw out all those DEI programs
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that they they had put in place uh all those commitments to racial justice all those commitments to diversifying their supply chains to diversifying their employees. employees and um you know and so I was uh you know pretty disappointed and then you know I thought
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about it for a while and and realized that if your company is not valuesled if if if your mission as as a business is not to actualize a set of values if your only mission as a business is to
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maximize short-term profits. It's a pretty easy decision to make. Uh you're doing something. The guy with all the power in the White House says don't do it. Uh so you don't do it cuz you think you'll make more money if you
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throw out uh DEI. And you know, it became clear that it was what? It was just a it was just a fad. they I guess they didn't deeply support it. Uh you know I think they were responding to
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public demand. So do you feel jaded about corporate activism now that you see how companies are showing their true colors?
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Uh I think there's more and more small businesses that are starting up that are valuesled.
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Uh there's a company Lush Cosmetics that's that's a pretty sizable company, international company that's very much an activist company. Uh and you know at the beginning when this movement started I mean of course there's Patagonia which was in there at the beginning
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uh at the beginning when this movement started there was real question of was it possible? Could it possibly be done?
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And now these companies have proved that it can be done. And you can be a business that has deep social values.
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You can act on those values. You can build the strongest possible relationship with your customers.
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Uh that can be had a relationship based on shared values. That's that's deep. uh a lot deeper than a relationship that's based on well we we came up with the funny ad or you know we came up with
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some emotional ad that that pulls at your heartstrings but that stuff is is ephemeral. It's it's not deep. It it passes.
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So what would you say to corporate leaders who are on the fence about speaking out?
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I'd say he well I mean he who is silent consents. I mean in situations of injustice you cannot be neutral. Uh as as Desmond Tutu said if an elephant is standing on the tail of a mouse and you claim to be
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neutral the mouse will not much appreciate your neutrality. I I mean, you're confronted with situations of injustice. You can you have three choices. You can ignore it, you can complain about it, or you can do something about it. and
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businesses now that are just cowttowing and bending their knee to the authoritarian shift in our country are uh are are are just complicit and uh they are they're not neutral.
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they are helping the authoritarian um direction that we're we're heading in. You you have to stand up and speak out.
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So, what makes your activism memorable is that you literally use ice cream to promote your causes. Um, you had the world's largest baked Alaska on the front lawn of the US capital to fight against oil drilling in Alaska. Uh, you
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released a bunch of flavors in support of marriage equality such as Hubby Hubby. Do you remember this? And Apple Ever After. And recently on your Instagram, um, you discussed creating a watermelon sorbet to support Palestinian human rights. So why ice cream activism?
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I mean why do you think this product has so much power? You know one of the beautiful things about ice cream is that people love it.
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Uh you know it has a very very special place in people's uh psyches uh you know birthday parties celebrations ice cream's always a part of it. Uh, ice cream's the only food that you eat while it's still frozen.
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Uh, it melts in your mouth. I mean, so so people have these positive associations with it. And because of that, we can use ice cream to talk about serious issues, but in in a way that's not that's that's not always serious. in a
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way that's approachable. Uh, and um, I don't know. Does that answer your question? It it does. But I say, when did you realize that? When did you realize that ice cream holds a lot of power beyond, you know, making people happy? I know my
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kids love ice cream. I mean, if they had their last meal, I know it'd be ice cream. [laughter] When did I realize that ice cream is powerful? Uh, I guess when we when we got into the the ice cream business and
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and you know saw how much uh people loved it, but the the combining it combining ice cream with uh social action and uh standing up for human rights and justice uh you know that kind of evolved over time. I it's I I
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remember uh you know a campaign that we had to sh which was about shifting money out of nuclear weapons and putting it into education and we we used stacks of ice cream scoops to to kind of illustrate what was going on and it's a
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it's a good way to learn about it. So, when we last talked for uh my column um about your fight with Unilever, um you told me that if you were to invent a flavor to describe your current mood, it
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would be all fudged up. Do you remember this? I I do. So, describe this flavor to me. What What exactly is all fudged up?
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[laughter] Well, you want the the ice cream flavor or you want what's actually fudged up?
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Well, both. [laughter] Well, you know, it would obviously have a bunch of hot fudge, which would be cold once it's in the pint. And it's, you know, when hot fudge gets cold, it's kind of chewy. It's kind of It's kind of
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an interesting texture. And of course, it would be really, really thick, really, really thick veins of hot fudge, and there'd be hot fudge on the on the top, cold hot fudge. Um, but what's what's fudged up right now about uh
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what's going on with Ben and Juries is that uh Unilver Magnum are not abiding by this legally binding uh document the the acquisition agreement that that set up this independent board that has this authority legal authority over over the
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social mission and they're overriding it. So there's an opportunity now to uh get the company owned by social investors that really support the mission [clears throat] and uh we need to we need to make our best shot to to
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make that happen. If I had to describe my mood right now sitting on stage at the House of Blues with you coming all the way from Vermont, I would say I'm feeling cherry grateful.
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Oo, very nice. Very nice. I'm cherry grateful for your time. Was that good? No.
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How about How about thanks a latte? Would that be What about that one? Is that better going up?
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No. This is this is why you're in the ice cream business and and I'm not. I'm going to have to stick with journalism instead. Well, Ben, we're truly grateful for you being here for the live recording of Say More at Globe Summit.
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Uh Ben Cohen is the co-founder of Ben and Jerry's. Thanks for being here. Nora, great to be here. Thank you.
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Say more is a production of the Boston Globe. Today's live episode was produced by Anna Kmer. Our engineer is UR Amid.
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Special thanks to the Globe Events team. If you like the show, please follow us and leave us a review. You can email us at [email protected].
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I'm Shirley Lang. Thanks for [music] listening. [music]
Topics:Ben CohenBen & Jerry'scorporate activismsocial missionUnileverFree Ben and Jerry'sbusiness valuesBoston Globe Opinionice cream activismprogressive business
