Francesca Stavrakopoulou | The Weekly [EXTENDED INTERVI… — Transcript

We cannot possibly understand Western culture and the history of Western culture without the Bible. Professor Franchesca Stavrapo is the head of Theology and Religion at the University of Exeter in the UK. She's a renowned biblical scholar who's devoted her life to looking for the historical evidence of one of the world's most important books. But I'm not a fundamentalist who takes every word of the Bible as fact. I think the truth is much more interesting. Would you please welcome Francesca.

to looking for the historical evidence of one of the world's most important books but I'm not a fundamentalist who takes every word of the Bible as fact I think the truth is much more interesting would you please welcome Francesa

Franchesca Seapo, I can't believe I stumbled on Francesca. What are the odds of that? Um, so we're going to, we're just going to talk about the Bible, and I want to learn more about it. First off, who wrote it and when?

when some people think that Moses wrote it which he didn't because Moses didn't exist so then you have to think well who did write it and it's basically a collection of different um authors from centuries and centuries so probably with

Some people think that Moses wrote it, which he didn't because Moses didn't exist. So then you have to think, well, who did write it? And it's basically a collection of different authors from centuries and centuries. So probably with the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament, you're talking about at least 500 years in the making. With the New Testament, you're talking about probably 150 to 200 years in the making. But basically, it was all written by men with daddy issues.

issues so so here's the thing there are people right now writing complaint letters just on the first answer to the first question right so I'm wondering why is taking a historical approach to the Bible so controversial it's controversial because when you do take a

So, here's the thing. There are people right now writing complaint letters just on the first answer to the first question, right? So I'm wondering, why is taking a historical approach to the Bible so controversial?

a big fish obviously no he wasn't swallowed by a big fish was there an exodus from Egypt no there wasn't an exodus so once you start doing that then you have to start doubting The credibility of all the other claims that

It's controversial because when you do take a historical approach, so look at the archaeological evidence for events or people described in the Bible, it's very hard to find corroborating evidence to support the biblical claims about the past. So once you start saying, did this actually happen or not? So was Jonah swallowed by a big fish? Obviously, no, he wasn't swallowed by a big fish. Was there an exodus from Egypt? No, there wasn't an exodus. So once you start doing that, then you have to start doubting the credibility of all the other claims that the Bible makes. And that's why people get annoyed because for some reason, people like to think that the Bible's true, right? People like, people like pets like to think that the Bible is true. They really—

thing one of the first things you said was Moses wasn't real yeah right now we've just had pesak the celebration of freedom of the Jews yeah led by Moses to Freedom yeah and you're saying he wasn't real no he probably wasn't so there's a

Well, get back. The first thing, one of the first things you said was Moses wasn't real.

of the water so when he was a baby and kind of set into the basket of reads but actually so so far story checks out so far it checks out except that Moses himself he's there there's no evidence

Yeah.

magician so you know he's like woo look at this star yeah we we all like a good magician but some people want to believe it's more than that how do you know like when you say none of that was real it

Right now, we've just had Pesach, the celebration of freedom of the Jews.

part of the world at that time that kind of stuff you lied to me CES be de but yeah that kind of detail tells you that these texts are written many centuries after the events that they're describing and then you can see the

Yeah.

and hundreds of years before that right does that make sense yeah it does it makes it makes perfect sense but you love the Bible yeah yeah I do why like if you if you if you like go well that's

Led by Moses to freedom.

traveling and you get to to read all about these different sorts of myths and legends like you know one of the most important myths in in the Old Testament Hebrew Bible is the idea that God had to fight a massive Sea Dragon to create the

Yeah.

it like what's so one of the hints is um on the such and such a day when God was making the world he made the great sea monsters and the word that they don't actually do that in the Bible but the

And you're saying he wasn't real?

in the Book of Job And in the Psalms so it's all there it's just that everyone kind of privileges the beginning of of the book because most people get bored by the time they get to like Leviticus and they don't bother reading there's

No, he probably wasn't. So there's a lot about him that's really interesting. So in his tradition, the traditions that are told about him, Moses is an Egyptian name. The Hebrew Bible writers kind of say the name is derived from a Hebrew verb meaning to draw out of the water. So when he was a baby and kind of set into the basket of reeds.

thing you know particular mil is it still plagues us today um so I've been to Jerusalem the old city of Jerusalem and it's amazing when the places mentioned in the Bible are in front of you like I ofs and the that these are

But actually, so far, the story checks out.

massive role in our lives right from when we're kids that somehow to be in these places I I think you can't but help just feel engaged and and excited and curious and to go somewhere like Jerusalem where obviously the Bible

So far, it checks out except that Moses himself, there's no evidence for him being a historical figure. Like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, all of that is all made up. But he's drawn on different sorts of religious figures that probably were around very broadly in the culture. So he's like a bit of a magician. So, you know, he's like, woo, look at this star.

time you can't but help feel impacted by that now you've already pointed out a few things that weren't real in the Bible what what was real like I believe the the Garden of Eden you believe was a real place well I believe it's based on

Yeah, we all like a good magician, but some people want to believe it's more than that. How do you know, like, when you say none of that was real, it was all made up, how do you know?

like the dwelling place of the god and like humans God wants a nice house and he wants a nice garden and it's the meeting place between the Heavenly realm and the Earthly realm and so it was filled with trees and it had like it was

Because dating the texts, you can see in terms of the Hebrew words that are used, in terms of some of the details like references to camels, there were no camels in that part of the world at that time. That kind of stuff.

in a very privileged position like like that with God he messes up he gets expelled from the garden so he's like thrown out of the temple and that's when the temple historically is destroyed and the Kings of Israel no longer exist so

You lied to me, CESBDE.

Paul just all of Paul yes that's like taking Paul out of the Beatles he was pretty important no because because Paul wrote Paul wrote a huge amount of the New Testament he was by and large the founder of the church he is the founder

But yeah, that kind of detail tells you that these texts are written many centuries after the events that they're describing. And then you can see the ideology. Well, why are they telling the story about escape from slavery and oppression and movement into a promised land? It's because the writers themselves were in their own kind of slavery and oppression, but in Babylon in the 6th century BC, not in Egypt hundreds and hundreds of years before that.

Corinthians ever write back you know we don't know if they did maybe maybe but he's so down on Humanity he's just really kind of like oh you humans you're so bad you're so sinful and it's like oh come on there we're not

Right, does that make sense?

oh I love you but it's not like that at all the god of the New Testament he's gone he's like not interested at all in humanity like he's not really present in the New Testament it's all about Jesus

Yeah, it does. It makes perfect sense.

and then it becomes people saying oh you just missed him God was here and he said this and and then by the end of it it's like I know a guy who spoke to a dude who saw exactly and to be honest you

But you love the Bible.

Jewish man you know like John the Baptist was probably sort of Jesus's initial teacher and like Jesus kind of then needs this Breakaway movement you know it's it's kind of like you know some pop group like the Beatles like

Yeah.

Yoko kind is extraordinary but here's the thing okay like you're an atheist yeah but you're passionate about the Bible yeah but you can understand that people could be quite angry at all of the things that you you're saying right

Why? Like, if you, if you, if you like go, well, that's not real, that's not real, he's not a guy.

is still harder than being an atheist because just because I'm an atheist because people can't say to me because most people in my field most academics are Christian or Jewish so I say to them I haven't got the same emotional

Yeah.

they come from and how kind of representative should this be how important should these texts be the Bible is a cultural icon whether we like it or not whether we believe in it or not so that's why it's important to

Yeah, why do you love it so much?

believe in a soul and I don't believe in hell and I don't believe do you ever worry that you might hurt people by saying what you think is the factual truth about the Bible no cuz I I don't think I'm not like some kind

Because it's like the most amazing collection of ancient literature. It's like, it's like reading, it's like going into a time capsule. It's like time traveling, and you get to read all about these different sorts of myths and legends. Like, you know, one of the most important myths in the Old Testament Hebrew Bible is the idea that God had to fight a massive sea dragon to create the world.

that they're stupid I don't think that people that have faith or belief are stupid at all that's their choice and I recognize that there are a lots of different ways of being in the world so at the same time so I try and be polite

Now, you don't get that in Genesis. You get hints of it in Genesis, but you do get it—

respect other people because I'm a human being and I I like people um you believe what you want to believe that's completely fine but your Bible belongs to me as well you know it belongs to all of us it's like had this huge impact

Hang on, what are the hints?

wrong uh well our gender politics for a start um is completely biblically based the idea that there are just two genders that they are made by God and in the image of God that equally that idea has massively damaged the environment

The hints?

animals so you know those are just two examples sexis ISM patriarchy and environmental damage that that the Bible's responsible for can I just ask you to fact chick something for me very quickly okay because I okay I have this

No, like, I'm just curious. Like, it's like—

car so okay well I think that raises an obvious question about the elephants [Laughter] um so so it's two elephants there we go 2 by two um we we have two Rhino a bit more textbook uh 2 by two and this is

Yeah, I on the agre—

bit sketchy on animal husbandry either he was sketchy or he didn't really get the right instructions from God i' I'd be more inclined to blame God God was very busy he's got I'm busy making a flood grabed some Lions I

Like, what was it like? What's so—

much oh