Speaker A
My name is Michael Render. They call me Killer Mike. And this is Conversate. Conversate. I just want to conversate.
Killer Mike discusses activism, political engagement, and the Ben & Jerry’s controversy with Ben Cohen on Conversate ep.35.
Key Takeaways
- Activism requires focus on impactful issues rather than chasing every cause.
- Values-led businesses face unique challenges balancing ethics and corporate pressures.
- Community engagement and political education are crucial for sustainable change.
- Material possessions are less important than meaningful contributions and legacy.
- Collaboration between activists and business leaders can drive social progress.
Summary
- Killer Mike introduces the Conversate show and reflects on its growth and diverse guests.
- Discussion on personal values versus materialism, exemplified by Killer Mike's preference for cars over jewelry.
- Exploration of symbolic meanings behind cultural artifacts like the Winged Victory of Samothrace and snake imagery.
- Killer Mike shares his early activism experiences organizing youth forums in Atlanta with support from local leaders.
- He recounts the impact of political surveillance and threats, emphasizing focused activism on meaningful issues.
- The conversation covers the business challenges and ethical conflicts faced by Ben & Jerry’s, including recent controversies.
- Ben Cohen explains the difficulties of running a values-led company amid corporate pressures and social activism.
- Killer Mike and Ben Cohen discuss the importance of community-driven political platforms and responsible business practices.
- The dialogue touches on personal anecdotes, social justice, and the intersection of culture, politics, and commerce.
- The episode highlights the power of activism in shaping both local and global change through business and politics.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Conversate Show Overview
- 02:18Materialism and Personal Values
- 04:33Symbolism of Cultural Artifacts
- 07:23Early Activism and Youth Organizing in Atlanta
- 10:01Political Surveillance and Focused Activism
- 15:50Ben & Jerry’s Business and Ethical Challenges
- 18:30Values-Led Company and Social Activism
- 24:00Community Political Platforms and Social Change
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
I just want to conversate. I, I just want to conversate with you. I want to, I want to conversate.
Speaker A
Hey, welcome back to Conversate. I promise we did not plan this. So, this must mean we're finding a synergy. Did we plan these shirts?
Speaker A
No, we did. You wore your shirt, right? Yeah, I wore mine. Cut master the swift came in.
Speaker A
I don't need to talk to y'all. Definitely. You been on block. Definitely freestyle. And thanks to Ashley and Tamika 'cause you're going to be able to buy these soon. So in case you want a Conversate shirt and we might work out. Well, I
Speaker A
think we're going to take something off so you can put your name tag on to show you part of the Conversate community.
Speaker A
That's all right. Um, man, it's been a, it's been, I'm going to be gone for a while, so we, we making sure we have enough for people to see. But we've had some interesting guests. We've had an alien.
Speaker A
We've had someone explaining aliens. I can't, somebody who discovered that he was an alien.
Speaker A
We've had Divine Stevens, one of the architects of the Atlanta hip hop music scene. We've had Sharon or going to have Sharon, um, right, who provided the place for the architects to build, man.
Speaker A
Fair godmother ATL. Yes. Yeah. She cussed my ass out, put me out twice. But we, we turning into a real show. It's, it's good to be with y'all.
Speaker A
Oh man. Thank you. It's absolutely my pleasure, man. Especially being able to sit across from this distinguished gentleman. You know what I mean?
Speaker A
I appreciate that. I like your drug dealer frames, too, man. That [ __ ] is fine. Shout out to him.
Speaker A
Give us some more. Why you, let me ask you something. Why don't you, why aren't you into, well, I know you're in the old cars. You got beautiful old cars. But why aren't you into jewelry and [ __ ]?
Speaker A
Like those frames look amazing on you. Because you look like a Cleveland King. I'm about to tell you because like these some expensive glasses, right? Yeah, they are 2500 something like that maybe.
Speaker A
No, no, for me different price, but yeah, they're, they're, yeah, but I'm just saying like they're typically like they, they're so with 2500 I can go get me nice goddamn wheels or a box Chevy. I can't drive the jewelry. I can't ride in
Speaker A
it. But I can't like for real I don't give a [ __ ] about no jewelry.
Speaker A
I say it in a new rhyme. I say double G pieces, boxes. So what? Devil G increases, boxing pieces, whatever. All that [ __ ] all I do is see the people on the internet turning that [ __ ] in. They be bringing
Speaker A
that [ __ ] back. Hey man, I might be your biggest fan. I'm so glad y'all are friends. No, 'cause ain't nobody else going to talk to Big Boss man like that.
Speaker A
He, he can't even wear this [ __ ]. What do we, what is that even doing here?
Speaker A
With his neck hurting. He, listen, he tried to perform this [ __ ]. He do like one version of this [ __ ] to be like first of all this is not a spirit of ecstasy off a Rolls-Royce I don't care
Speaker A
what it is, our culture they got the education now he can educate it's a dead bird that's ask me he can't go no goddamn way it moving I get it I mean I don't you want me to get understand like
Speaker A
this is the winged victory of Samothus this was found after 2,000 years under water it was found it was restored and it hangs in the Louvre museum it is The detail on those wings. The detail.
Speaker A
[ __ ] ain't got no head. A got no face. Like no arms. Yeah. Are you gonna let me arms?
Speaker A
Arms. Are you, are you going to let me finish explaining what it is? It's like I'm like kid. I'll be playing.
Speaker A
You're smashing. It's like Michael J, man. Look, look, look, look, man. Look. Oh, here you go, man. Ain't that [ __ ]? It's heavy though. It's nice. Like like a little plumbing pipe or something.
Speaker A
It's heavy though. Nice little piece of steel there. Well, you saved this me for on air today. You fired me up.
Speaker A
No, I didn't. I'm just saying I just, you fired me up. I don't make no sense.
Speaker A
Yeah. I ain't going, I ain't going, I ain't going to play with you. Why don't you let him put Conversate on that?
Speaker A
You be mad as hell, right? Okay. What is that? What, what is it called?
Speaker A
Go ahead. Finish yourself. Finish yourself. Man, I needed this last so good, man. It's so healthy for I don't even want to talk about no.
Speaker A
No, I do like that chain though. Let's change something together. No, I do like the chain. Change the chain though. That, that's nice.
Speaker A
Appreciate you. Yeah, that thing healthy, too, boy. That's not that [ __ ] on your arm. Let me see what we got going on here.
Speaker A
Snake. That's the snake, ain't it? Representity. Represents eternity. Guard snake. Look, little rat snake. Anybody scared of snakes for real?
Speaker A
No, I'm not scared of snakes. No, I'm, I like snakes. I'm a, I'm a fan of snakes.
Speaker A
I'm a fan of snakes. Oh, we'll see next show. You know, I walk in with the [ __ ] bro. I'm my neck. That's so that's what I do. You see I, I buy real snake. You I ain't buy no snake that can't move,
Speaker A
man. Let me, um, let me, let me ask you how 'cause you, you, you I remember my friend calling me one time and he said, "Hey, man. You know, I know I laugh and joke and play a lot, but like as a friend and a brother
Speaker A
to you, I just want you to say, you know, watch how much you saying and what you're saying and win because I don't want them to kill my friend.
Speaker A
And oh yeah, as as funny as it was, 'cause Lord knows I [ __ ] laugh. I sat and I realized, oh [ __ ] my funny friend is very serious.
Speaker A
And, uh, that friend was Swift and he was like, Mike, you take such an active approach in political and social things that sometimes I get scared for my friend. And it was around the same time.
Speaker A
They went through your email. Yeah. Oh. Oh, yeah. It was trying to, it was right after Hillary I popped up in Hillary Clinton's email from her campaign manager saying, um, I guess Killer Mike didn't get the message. And
Speaker A
um, I, I understood then there's a message that has been sent. And in case you guys wonder the power of, of, of [ __ ] Hillary email, she just told the people she was testifying in front of, "Fuck
Speaker A
you. Hold me in contempt all you want. Godamn." I was like, she said, "You can hold me in contempt till the cows come home." Now, for those who don't speak white, that means [ __ ] go [ __ ]
Speaker A
yourself, I'm too powerful to be addressed. Not even. But it scared me enough. Scared me, too.
Speaker A
But it scared me enough that I didn't quit. I got quieter about frivolous things and louder about things that really [ __ ] mattered. So, I stopped being like a dog and chasing every issue that came by. And I started really
Speaker A
sticking to issues that could be world changing on a very local level or very macro level. And I've earned some friends over the course of the past 10 years of my life politically. But I've been doing this work since 35 years
Speaker A
since I was 15 years old. I was in a youth group, um, and we went to Andy Young's office. Andy Young's former mayor of Atlanta, second black mayor Atlanta. I knocked on Andy Young and I said, "We want to do a group of forums
Speaker A
for kids." Now, this was me. This was kids that were black gangster disciples. Gangster Disciples, kids that were, um, crips. All of us organized along with kids who were from the north side of Fulton. For those not from Atlanta, ask
Speaker A
your friends north side of Fulton's comparably better. Buckhead, north of that. And we all organized together because we wanted kids in Atlanta to have an opportunity to say, "Hey, this is what we feel is going on." We told
Speaker A
Andy, we want you to underwrite this. Andy said, I got 500 bucks for you and you can use all the, all the, um, you know, the town hall meeting places for free.
Speaker A
Shirley Franklin was within the city administration at that time. She would later become mayor, but she was strong, attentive. I love her to this day for that. Adults could come, but they couldn't talk. Only kids could talk. And
Speaker A
we wrote a company. We wrote some people. I wrote Ice Cube. Hey, would you? He sent back some merch and a shirt like, "I can't come little homies, but I want
Speaker A
"Although we can't give you grant money, we're going to send you guys a bunch of [ __ ] ice cream." And they sent a bunch of [ __ ] ice cream. And those kids not only came out, testified,
Speaker A
received other stuff from other companies and stuff, but they were most happy about Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream.
Speaker A
And they wrote an amazing letter to us that I wish I had kept that my mentor died and we don't know where it is, but just encouraging us to stay social advocates, to stay um to stay marching in the streets if possible. And I
Speaker A
thought these two old crazy white guys were amazing. And I've been blessed to have the opportunity to know and grow and befriend one of them. Both of them I've worked with. Jerry I worked with on the Sanders campaign. Ben I actually
Speaker A
smoke joke with and we talk [ __ ] about how we're going to change the world. I think he's an amazing human being.
Speaker A
Mhm. His name is Ben Cohen. He's going to be with us today. But what do you guys think about I'm going to introduce him in a minute, but what do you guys think about the work we do? Does it deserve
Speaker A
social advocacy or do we should we just shut the [ __ ] up and kind of mind our own business?
Speaker A
I think we definitely have to uh inject some information into society with this platform that could help us as a whole.
Speaker A
And I'm saying us no no color barriers but us as a whole. And I think that this platform, what we've created uh in conversate is uh giving a a peak into who you truly are. Not just in front of
Speaker A
the camera, but a lot of times what happens on this show is should be behind the camera.
Speaker A
I agree with you. But we we definitely are um we have to utilize all all of our experiences, our priceless experiences to educate people about how it is out here in the world cuz we've traveled the world for many decades now.
Speaker A
Well, we still don't want to talk too much though cuz I don't need nobody cutting my bra lines and [ __ ] And yeah, and going through my emails.
Speaker A
You got to realize the president, vice president going through a rapper's email. Come on, man.
Speaker A
Yeah, that was that was that was kind of let you know that we're a little bit more influential and powerful and and the the actual ability to plant a seed that could grow something that could be the the start of
Speaker A
the revolution. Dangerous. Yeah. And it it man, it'll [ __ ] around and take a song. And I know a lot of times people think um I remember I I did I said that in a record like man I you know I could I could be
Speaker A
and I remember it was hip hop DX fans came on you know just kind of [ __ ] it was the beginning of the troll and [ __ ] talking era and when I popped up in the Hillary
Speaker A
Clinton mail I said oh [ __ ] this is for real. So you know let me be very measured and purposeful in things I'm saying and not just you called me you was tripped out. You was kind of freaked out.
Speaker A
I was more freaked out cuz I was like you for real? I kept asking like you must as you 10 times but we got but the dope part of it is thank good old capitalism. We were able to use it um to sell a hell out of a
Speaker A
t-shirt I made a lot of money I bought old school. I want to um I want to introduce someone who I have an immense amount of respect and reverence for someone I would like to pattern my life at um after in terms of what he's been
Speaker A
able to do on a greater societal realm besides make a bunch of money selling good ice cream. Our guest today is Ben Cohen, co-founder of Ben & Jerry's, one of the most recognizable socially conscious brands in the world. For
Speaker A
decades, Ben and Jerry's has tied business to activism, taking bold positions on social justice, democracy, and human rights. Today, we have my friend Ben. And my friend Ben is fighting to restore the independent board that has historically protected
Speaker A
the company's social mission. He's here today to talk about corporate power. What happens when values clash with ownership and why the fight for independence matters. Ben Cohen, welcome to Conversate.
Speaker A
All right, my man, man. What's up, OG? Good to see you. How you doing, man?
Speaker A
All right. They going they going to think I just got a ganger of of just OG white guys with white hair, man, between you and old Bernie, man. Man, I've grown to be friends with you and I'm I thank I thank
Speaker A
God for it. I'm a lucky guy. Yeah, I've learned I've learned a lot. um from and by you.
Speaker A
I think we learn a lot from each other, man. Thank you. You told me a story once of you and I I think you were with Jerry.
Speaker A
You guys were on the beach smoking a joint maybe and got stopped by a cop.
Speaker A
Yeah. And the cop gave you grace. Uh well, he gave us grace after uh we got handcuffed and after they took us to the station. Yeah.
Speaker A
And after they strip searched us. Oh [ __ ] And uh and then they gave us a ticket for littering a lighted cigarette butt on the beach.
Speaker A
So they scared the [ __ ] out of you, but they gave you some, right? And and what I was saying about that story is that, you know, we were white kids from suburbia. And if we were black kids from the city,
Speaker A
we wouldn't have got off with no ticket for littering a lighted cigarette. Really? I appreciate you being that conscious and honest. They cops gave me grace, too. It was CALLED GRAMMY NIGHT.
Speaker A
HE KEPT ME. We don't have Grammy nut in the ice cream industry. We You um you and your friend later went on to start one of the most dominant businesses, brands in terms of creative if something people wanted. People love
Speaker A
dessert as you can tell. Me and Bear and Swift of all life. You're a shadow of your former self.
Speaker A
What are you working at? You're cutting down. I'm working it. I'm working. I'm not eating diet ice cream. I eat real [ __ ] ice cream. All right. But but I um if you guys wouldn't have gotten that
Speaker A
chance to start this company, that company wouldn't have been able to do things like organizations like Kids for Change, which I was a part of in Atlanta for Commission on Youth. The world would not have been ignited every time they
Speaker A
grabbed a scoop of cold ice cream to have a hot flash of I need to be doing something post this ice cream. What made you guys inject social caring or giving a damn in your business? It doesn't make sense from a
Speaker A
capitalistic standpoint. Well, I mean, it wasn't uh a capitalist move. Uh but uh what made us do it? Um you know, we wanted to be true to ourselves. Yeah.
Speaker A
Uh you know, we wanted to make the best ice cream we could. We wanted to make the kind of ice cream we wanted to eat.
Speaker A
Yeah. And we wanted to run a business the way we felt like regular old people walking on the street would like to see a business run.
Speaker A
Yes, sir. Uh, you know, a business that, you know, cared about the community, tried to repair harms in the community as opposed to exploiting the community.
Speaker A
Yes, sir. And uh you know the you know all all the all the all the advisors, the accountants, the lawyers told us we were crazy that it couldn't be done. And what we discovered was that it sells ice cream.
Speaker A
I I I couldn't I couldn't believe it that uh you know we didn't do we didn't do social justice to sell ice cream.
Speaker A
Yeah. But that's the way it turned out. You know what's crazy is you you you feel better about products you buy when they know when you know that some of it goes to things that I care about. I I
Speaker A
Andy tells a story of us knocking for that 500 bucks that the only 500 bucks he gave us. But he he often brags to people, you know, those kids ended up raising $100,000 for kids in the Eastern Horn of Africa to help fight starvation.
Speaker A
He was more proud of us for doing so much with what he knew was so little that he he's never stopped telling that story. And he'll tell you, you think Mike's an angel, the kid's a devil.
Speaker A
He'll, you know, but but he um but so anytime I buy Ben and Jerry's, um I know that some good happens in the world. But recently, I've had to stop buying Ben and Jerry's. Um because the company that
Speaker A
bought Ben and Jerry's is another company whose ice cream. I like ice cream. It was called Magnum.
Speaker A
That's right. And Magnum had these sexy little bars. They selling 7-Elevens. They're chocolate covered. You know, you pick it up to your wife like, "Hey, you want to have a Magnum night? I'm buying a Magnum." And you would you were a
Speaker A
badass. You're like [ __ ] Thun or somebody on Greece. And then you heard they were acquired by you guys. You guys cashed out beautiful things. That's You build businesses to sell. Unless you're like Walmart or Chick-fil-A, they're
Speaker A
never selling. But you we didn't we didn't build it to sell it. You didn't?
Speaker A
No. What made you sell it? We we built it to kept it keep it independent. No one wanted to run it cuz I know it became publicly held and it was an independent publicly held company and Unilver at the time offered so much
Speaker A
money for the stock. Got that the board was forced by SEC rules to sell it. But I fought I fought hard to keep it in.
Speaker A
You've been fight You even fought to keep it, but you ended up it ends up belonging to Magnum.
Speaker A
And then they wish to strip your board of all the socially conscious and aware people that wish to make sure this brand still affects the world.
Speaker A
And and you're not going to lie down. You're going to raise hell all the way to the end. And you got a friend in me to help. So I can use all the friends I can get on this one.
Speaker A
Well, that's what I want you on the show cuz I'm no longer having Magnum. I'm no longer even been at Jerry's. I'm back to damn near making it like my grandmother would make in her [ __ ] living room.
Speaker A
So talk to us. That's the best way. I want you to educate us on what we need to be doing to support you reacquiring Ben and Jerry's and and just what what do you feel compelled to talk about in
Speaker A
terms of what we can do as a people to unify and better the world?
Speaker A
Well, uh there's a website freeben &jerrys.com. Go visit it. free and send the send the letter.
Speaker A
Yes, sir. And uh there's a hashtag #free Ben &J. Okay. Uh so that's how to, you know, participate. That's how to, you know, send a letter. And uh what we've had is that people have been kind of bombing uh
Speaker A
Magnum social media. They were they were tagging Magnum saying free Ben and Jerry's, you know, what what the heck are you guys doing? And uh they did it so much that Magnum changed their settings so that you know if you tag
Speaker A
them, it doesn't show up on their social media anymore. Could you forgive me for for interrupting? love it when you explain could you explain what happened again in terms of you guys losing the company or having being forced to sell. Could you
Speaker A
explain that in more detail? Yeah. Uh you know originally uh you know Ben and Jerry's didn't take in venture capital. uh we wanted to spread the wealth amongst the people who had supported us from the very beginning which were our neighbors, people who
Speaker A
lived in Vermont. So we had a Vermont public stock offering, an instate public stock offering and uh one ever one out of every hundred Vermoners bought stock and uh and then after a while uh we had a need for more money and uh you know
Speaker A
some of those people who bought stock they wanted to have a market in the stock so that you know they said you know we really like owning the stock but you know we can't monetize it. And so we
Speaker A
went public on a national basis. We were listed on NASDAQ on the stock exchange and uh at you know and things were going well and uh and then we hired the wrong CEO and uh he saw a way to make a bunch of
Speaker A
money for himself by essentially selling the company and so he went to you know this huge conglomerate Unilver uh that owns you know I don't know 50 brands. I don't know how many brands and all the stuff, you know, they own Dove, they own Axe,
Speaker A
you you know, they uh and uh and so they offered so much money for the stock higher than what it was selling at. And the SEC has rules and they it says, you know, if if a company offers so much in
Speaker A
excess, you have no choice. But know that. Wow. What year did you guys start, Ben and Jerry?
Speaker A
78. We started as a homemade ice cream parlor in a uh in an old gas station in Vermont.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. How did you How did you and Jerry meet or whatever? How'd we meet?
Speaker A
Yeah. We met in seventh grade gym class. How about we were the two slowest, fattest kids in the class.
Speaker A
Perfect for making ice cream. Yeah. Right. Right. When it came time to start a business, the only thing we wanted to do was food. So my beatatric, my grandma would um she would make ice cream right there in the living room.
Speaker A
You get the what was it? Was it you get the like ice, you pour the salt on it.
Speaker A
Rocks off. Yeah. And just and just turn. She refused to even do the electric one. You know and and that ice cream always tasted better because a real heart and soul went into it. I saw her pour the vanilla. I saw
Speaker A
her pour. You guys really put heart and soul into the product and that kind of it it's counter to what you think.
Speaker A
You're supposed to be trying to make the most ice cream the quickest. You guys remained activists at heart or caring about the world and yet were able to scale. Was there ever conflict for you guys to say we we we're cuz what you
Speaker A
know some people think I'm just making all the money but when you start to employ people you start to become responsible outside of your own wants and need was was did that conflict enter as you guys were growing
Speaker A
uh you know in the in the early days of uh there there was there was this idea that when we did stuff that benefited the community that took away from using our resources to, you know, increase profits. And uh and eventually we
Speaker A
discovered that there's a lot of things you can do to increase profits that also help to improve the quality of life in the community. And we started being what we called a values-led company. So we would make decisions based on our values
Speaker A
in terms of what products we're going to come out with or how we're going to source them. And you know and then as the business grew larger and larger we realized that the most powerful tool that a business has is its voice. That
Speaker A
uh you know when business speaks uh you know the politicians listen, the media listens, the public listens. uh you know you have a platform in this town right here. There was some want to disrespect Dr. King in some
Speaker A
capacity. I think after winning the Nobel Peace Prize and Coca-Cola say all right we're out and the politicians were like but they they used to support Dr. And then they should at some point in this town the politicians at that time you know it was
Speaker A
a whitewash politician this is in the late60s they didn't want to honor or support him after I think the civil after the the um Nobel Peace Prize and the the the president or whoever was leading Coco at the time. Sorry. All
Speaker A
right. We're going to pack up and leave. And they were like hold the [ __ ] up.
Speaker A
What are you talking about? And it changed the attitude instantly in terms of how the city dealt with Dr. King. The city at that point was white dominated.
Speaker A
um it was white southern political figureheads, but the the head of that business understood that that world mission that Dr. King was on was far more important. And I can remember even in my time um a part tide running
Speaker A
rampant and college kids on the AU saying to Coca-Cola, we're going to protest and boycott and raise hell. And it was Coca-Cola and companies like Delta that I saw come out of Atlanta say we we got to put an end to apartheid. So
Speaker A
when you're saying when business speaks, politicians listen. It's really powerful. I I mean, and the problem is right now all these huge corporations are rolling over and cowtowing to who is destroying the best parts of America. I mean, in
Speaker A
terms of is it just him or is it the is it them? And and what I mean by this, it's it's easy to point at a king without an army.
Speaker A
He seems to have a pretty Oh, yeah. He's got a big army. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
So, what do we have to do on a political or business level to kind of him like this is if I find out Magnum owns whatever detergent I use, I'm already switching over. I'm just using True Detergent. True Detergent is a detergent
Speaker A
company owned by five old Muslim men here who create an amaz they've created an amazing product.
Speaker A
If you if you got the issues, they got hypoallergenic, they got templates, but they instead of arguing and fighting with gang or tide to see the world their way, they just created a product that they sell that people buy. A few years
Speaker A
ago, I mentioned them and people like Sarah Sar Sarah Silverman and other people help promote them, too. But that's one of the brands I like to see grow because if you're talking about a billion dollars, even if you capture 2%
Speaker A
of the market share, that's enough to change part of the world. Yeah. Where where you're at. And I think a lot of times we don't understand how important and a revolutionary thing business can be too. How do you infuse your values
Speaker A
into a business? Like how do you I mean you say you become a valuesled business, but how do you embed that in a for-profit business?
Speaker A
Well, you know, originally it was based on my values and Jerry's values. Got uh and then we realized as the company was getting larger that it needed to be about more than just my values and Jerry's values that the
Speaker A
company itself needed to embrace those values. So you designed a board that we needed to infuse them.
Speaker A
Okay. And so talk about the people who are at at threat now at being put off the board at Magnum cuz you showed me some amazing people the other day when we spoke. amazing people who who did an
Speaker A
incredible job who have fought for the values of the company uh so hard uh against the onslaught from you know Unilver and now Magnum.
Speaker A
Yes. And and Magnum responded by they're attempting to kick him off the board. Yeah.
Speaker A
Uh and these people are uh it's Anoratada Mattel. She's the chairwoman. Uh there's um we ain't got no name for everybody. We can we can we'll pull it we'll put them on the bottom.
Speaker A
But when you show me the people I was knocked off my feet floor because um coming out of the nonprofit space having worked in there as a teenager, you know how difficult and incredibly difficult it is to raise money as a
Speaker A
nonprofit. But to have a for-profit business and a for-profit board that still has an nonprofit ear, eye, and heart, it's you couldn't have convinced me it existed outside of Ben and Jerry's. And I feel if we let this wall
Speaker A
fall, that's all that that we don't have another Ben & Jerry's quickly on the horizon doing this. What what what um are you prepared to buy back from Unilver or Magnum or you do like what's the plan besides
Speaker A
Well, what we what we've done is we've assembled a group of investors that believe in the values of Ben and Jerry's and uh they're ready to to buy the company uh in order to preserve the values, but the problem is that the
Speaker A
Magnum Ice Cream Corporation is not willing to sell. So this whole free Ben and Jerry's campaign is designed to pressure them to help them see the light to understand that it's going to be better for their company. I mean they
Speaker A
own uh about a hundred different ice cream brands. Yeah. And you know one of the top three is Ben & Jerry's. So you know they they don't want to let it go because you know they just see dollar signs. But uh the
Speaker A
reality is that it's a distraction for them that they have no idea how to run a valuesled company. And uh and we've got all these people this, you know, this this army of supporters.
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Yeah. That are looking to pressure them and tell them, you know, we're not that crazy about your other brands. We, you know, we don't really want to buy Magnum.
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I got to Well, I stopped buying it once you told me what you told me. I haven't bought it. I a had no wild nights with the wife with a mang since. But I really like the valueled company.
Speaker A
Yeah, I really like that. That resonates with me and I think that the uh consumers of that product will be very empathetic to what you guys are going through and because it just makes sense. I definitely am not going to purchase any
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of that companies. We're going to find out what all companies they own and we'll we'll put the word out the best we can to um help your cause.
Speaker A
That'd be great. I'm a believer in a good boycott. Not that I think that boycott should last forever. Although I I do believe in finding products that are local that you can support, but this is a time where
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the technique of boycotting could be very effective. And I'll talk to my audience. If you damage um a company's reputation, that's going to damage their stocks for at least a quarter, couple quarters, even a year. And if we make a
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focused attempt and attack on a company to say, "Hey, Ben and Jerry's until you free Ben and Jerry's, we're not buying Magnum or Ben & Jerry's." Um, this man's phone may ring in the middle of the night like we gonna try and get the [ __ ]
Speaker A
rid of y'all cuz y'all [ __ ] up them whole trap money. You know what I mean?
Speaker A
Well, I just want to say that uh you know what's really most critical and important to to Jerry and myself are the employees at Ben and Jerry's and uh they've done an amazing job. They've put out great ice cream. They've done
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wonderful uh social uh justice work and uh you know so we have not been calling for people not to buy Ben & Jerry's cuz you know when when you don't buy Ben & Jerry's that that kind of puts their jobs kind of in
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jeopardy. So we need to keep buying. So don't I think we want to keep Ben and Jerry's.
Speaker A
Yeah. It's the other guy. It's the other guy rather than And we still ride with B&B. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cuz Ben and Jerry Ben and Jerry is the victim here. We want to help him.
Speaker A
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shopify.com/killermike. Go to shopify.com/killermike. That's shopify.com/killermike. Cha-ching. Man, I I love you, OG. like I I really I built a real friendship and kinship with you and I know that you don't selfishly just think about Ben and Jerry's and and unselfishly their
Speaker A
employees. You also have been working in the marijuana reform space for you even convinced me that that lower grade marijuana is better for old people and I should push it. I was like call it lower grade.
Speaker A
Well me I I'll say yeah it it was lower in THC is what I mean lower in THC. I smoke very strong marijuana. The marijuana I smoke is 28.
Speaker A
Yeah, I'm looking forward to that experience after the show. I got you, OG. I got you. Why is the Lord better?
Speaker A
Uh, you know, there's there's different components to uh cannabis and one of them is uh well, turppen. So there's a lot of different tarpen lemonine, pining, oamine, uh that have that determine what kind of effect, uh, you know, what kind of high it's going to
Speaker A
be. Wow, I heard that. You know, whether it's going to be sedating or energizing or, you know, more creative and spacey or more focused and it's the tarpen that determine that.
Speaker A
And uh you know for a a lot of times you know it's the blend of all these different components together. So it's the THC, it's the CBD, and now there's all these other CBN, there's CBG, and and you know, we track about six
Speaker A
different tarpen. And so it's the blend. And uh you know, a lot of people think that if you have uh too much THC, it overpowers the tarpen.
Speaker A
Well, we got that gas over here. And then and then and then and then there's just uh you know people you know it's kind of like somewhat the difference between doing shots and sipping a beer or sipping wine. Uh
Speaker A
so it takes you longer to get high. You get to have more toes. And uh and you know in terms of dosing you know you know they talk about one toke over the line you know I mean you know I'm I
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smoke and uh you know you're having a good time and you say well I'm just going to have another hit and I'm going to have even a better time. And if you're smoking that real high THC stuff that's gas
Speaker A
you're over the line. You smoking Randy Miller. So, but this this lower THC stuff, you'd smoke another toke and he's straight.
Speaker A
My mom my mom told me that she was like the um she said the stuff they would smoke out of Jamaica, the stuff they smoke out of Bahamas back in the day.
Speaker A
She said it it was a coast and she didn't like my marijuana. She said it hit you. She was like all the Rasta guys. I mean, they're smoking all day. It's low THC stuff that they're smoking all day.
Speaker A
I was wonder I was wondering how y'all I was wondering how y'all can smoke back to back.
Speaker A
Well, I can't anymore. I know. That's what I'm saying. So really So my stuff is for you, man. You're taking but but I grew up with so I have to get there quick.
Speaker A
So y'all used to really better. So really y'all used to be smoking kind of some [ __ ] Well really like we got to put it in perspective. No, I I was an addict and now I'm not an addict. I just want to
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lie like playing. You just told him, man. You just told him, man, y'all he can't wait till we finish this [ __ ] He got something in his sock.
Speaker A
He got on a pad that absorbs to his skin. Let me get back to this.
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He suddenly we do. Is there a petition that that that's going around? Yes, exactly. All right. Exactly. And we go and we go to freeben &jerry.com to sign up. Now, let me ask you, how was this board because you and Jerry are
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brilliant men. I've seen Jerry in action around the Sanders campaign. I've been on Zooms with you guys as we're talking about marijuana reform. The board was supposed to insulate and protect against these type of incidents. And now that
Speaker A
we've seen that the Achilles heel and that, what changes when you get it back?
Speaker A
Uh well the difference is that the owners are on board. They you know it's it's not it's not the independent social mission board against the owners.
Speaker A
It's the owners are on board with the social mission board. So we need to get the free Ben and Jerry shirts. We got to we got to come up.
Speaker A
Yeah. Well you go to the website you can get the free Ben and Jerry shirt. I should have brought you some free Ben and Jerry shirt instead of conversate [ __ ] So like do do you have any type of
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controlling interest or anything in the company? No. Damn. You can't see me no ice cream.
Speaker A
That's all you want. Be able to get you a few. Yeah. Tell tell goddamn what you want.
Speaker A
You want rum, don't you? [ __ ] rum flavor. I don't like chocolate. I like chocolate.
Speaker A
You want something with some alcohol in it? Some some of that low gradede weed in.
Speaker A
Look, I'm sitting here as we're sitting here and this is my second time. Hold on, sir. Okay.
Speaker A
This my second time meeting a good gentleman, right? And I'm really sitting here still like, do y'all know that the guy started Ben and Cherries?
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Yeah. Like, it's really absolutely amazing that I'm sitting across from you, a brand that has been here since the 70s7s.
Speaker A
And it came from your desire, your your brainchild, your thought to let's create this ice cream. And here we are, what 42, three years later.
Speaker A
They tell me 47 years. We call it even half a century. Even half a century later.
Speaker A
Talking to kids, adults. This is Yeah. Yeah. I'm amazed too, Bear. Like you, I'm amazed too. Like this is being look and and like we going to get [ __ ] up.
Speaker A
I'm amazed too. I smoke some weed. I mean, come on, man. Give me a to some ice cream.
Speaker A
Yeah, man. Well, some people say I did it backwards. that I should have started the pot business before the ice cream to generate the demand instead of the ice cream.
Speaker A
It all works business all together. It's in a cycle. You get you you eat ice cream, you want to sit around and get stoned.
Speaker A
Who come up with all them who come up with all those crazy flavors? You had to be You might have been high as [ __ ] Uh you know, at at the beginning I was like channeling flavors from the
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collective unconscious. I'm saying they were just kind of coming through me. Uh but you know now there's a whole bunch of people coming up with so still buy Ben and Jerry's sign the petition and let's free Ben raise some hell raise
Speaker A
some hell about you what what advice do you have for other young people that are starting their first of all starting a business is nuts anyway you got to be delusional to do it you got to be [ __ ] crazy but the for the few
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that do how how do they make sure they keep their their business missionoriented Is is it a matter of staying small long enough? Because a lot of people in a race to scale up and go big. It seems
Speaker A
that Ben and Jerry was very comfortable staying small until it was time to metriculate up. Like you I don't I don't know if you guys were still I mean it was the '9s when we I think we hit you
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guys in ' 89 90 maybe asking you for money. Um and you giving us a bunch of ice cream, but it wasn't the biggest most dominant but you guys were you they could tell you were coming.
Speaker A
Yeah. Why' you care? or or or or for what should people do who care that they don't drive themselves out of business while caring?
Speaker A
You know, I I think for a lot of people, as as you were starting to say, they they start a business and their idea is to build it up and and sell it.
Speaker A
Yes. And I don't that's not what I'm about. Yes, sir. Uh, I'm I'm about creating a business that has a set of social values and can be a force for progressive social change and working for justice legacy and and become a bigger and bigger voice
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and and you want to hold on to that. I mean I think that uh really the biggest problem in our society is the increasing concentration of wealth into fewer and fewer hands and that's why it was so you
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know difficult for me when I lost that battle and when Ben and Jerry's got sold originally in the year 2000 because I viewed Ben and Jerry's as uh kind of an anti-corporate corporation and when it gets bought bought by this huge
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conglomerate. It's just contributing to this concentration of wealth into fewer and fewer hands. So, I think the first thing is to decide that you're in it for the long haul. That it's not about building it up and then selling it to
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some valueless entity. Yeah. Um and you know the other thing that you got to do is uh you know you got to do something that you love and and in terms of money you can't take money from venture
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capitalists. Uh you know venture capitalists they're interested in one thing and it's maximizing their profits and they don't values they right they're not valuesled. I mean there's starting to be some uh they call them impact investors and there so there
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you know there are you know like we found these investors that are you know looking to help us purchase Ben & Jerry's right uh they've got the values it's it's starting but the typical you know venture capital or or private
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equity guy you know they're looking to make an investment and then get out in five to seven years uh through a sale.
Speaker A
And you know, I mean, that's the whole problem. That's the whole reason why I was opposed to the sale in the first place, that you have a business that has a set of values and then you sell it to
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an entity that doesn't have those same values and you lose them. Someone asked a question yesterday. We prep. Ashley's been doing a good job of prepping us for our interview so we're not just bullshitting around her and Tamika and um Ramsay. But someone said,
Speaker A
"Why don't you just start a new company called Jerry and B?" I'm sure you've heard that more times than you think.
Speaker A
I'm old, man. That took a lot of work when I was 26. You know, you know, right now in terms of the free Ben and Jerry's campaign, as a percentage of energy that I have, I'm putting out the same amount of energy
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that I was doing to start Ben and Jerry's when I was 26. But it's not the, you know, it's the same percentage, but in terms of the absolute amount of energy, it's a lot less cuz, you know, I
Speaker A
ain't got it anymore. I mean, I got some of it, but you know, you know, you know, a young 26y old I can't imagine. I was going to say I can't imagine being forced out. Your company being forced to
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be sold. The product still has your name on it. Yeah. Your name on it, but everyone else is benefiting from it as well as destroying. And it made me think about 112 actually because you you put so much work into
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creating it and then kind of be forced out of it. And I'm looking at it like I can't it almost takes the the breath. God damn.
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Yeah. The passion out of even how how can it don't even taste the same cuz you're not involved in it.
Speaker A
I know what you mean. I mean, when I lost that battle in the year 2000, uh, it was it was the lowest point in my life. Uh, you know, for about two years.
Speaker A
What's amazing though, you're saying it's the lowest point in your life. By the American standards, you got a bunch of money.
Speaker A
That's right. This should not have been You should have been bing with BMF in the club and you weren't. Why? Why did you still care?
Speaker A
I I do care. I I wasn't in it for the money. What can I say? That was not what I was looking for. I mean, you know, I was looking to make a living.
Speaker A
Yeah. But, uh, I I wasn't looking for for a, you know, a big payout. I mean, I I don't, you know, so uh, so, but that's the thing that this incredible independent board I I thought it was all over once once the company
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got sold in the year 2000. But this as part of that that sale, we were able to negotiate having this independent board that has legal authority over the social mission, over the quality of the ice cream, over the product specifications,
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over the trademark, over how it's marketed. I mean, it has a huge amount of power. And I think that's the reason why the current owner Magnum just decided, well, we're going to just strongarm it and, you know, we don't care what the law is.
Speaker A
We're just going to ignore that board. And so no Department of Justice or anything like that could, you know, it's in the courts. You know, they're they're battling it in the courts. Uh but, you know, it takes a
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long time. And thank God for that board, though. and and they and and the the fact of the matter is that the company is operating as if that board does not exist.
Speaker A
They're they're not seeking approval from the board for the things that they have to. They're not respect.
Speaker A
They're definitely dissing the board. I mean, you guys know about being dissed. This board is being dissed in a big way.
Speaker A
Rap battles. So, this is why public engagement right now is critical. Critical. in the next 30 to 90 days, what would some success look like?
Speaker A
Absolutely. Uh would be Magnum, the Magnum Corporation saying, "Okay, we're willing to talk with these uh investors about selling the company." Gotcha. So, that's what our 90-day mission is to as a public put the free Ben and Jerry's campaign so on front street that
Speaker A
they have to sit at the table with with with new investors that are more valuebased.
Speaker A
Exactly. I I mean, you know, I mean, the customers, the reality, if they use it, they have the biggest power of any ass target.
Speaker A
Uh, shouts out Jamal Bryant. Hell of a campaign you running, Reverend. We going to have to get Reverend down with the ice cream campaign. I'm going to call him.
Speaker A
That'd be great because again, I've seen what you've done in my pro-life personal in the community. There's no reason that I believe in solid worker solidarity.
Speaker A
And what I mean by it is every cause that I fight for is is not just for people that look like me. And your company did that. The people who you helped often times didn't look like you and Jerry weren't of the same ethnic
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background, religious background. You know, the company has been focused on people that have been marginalized, oppressed, discriminated against, and there's a lot more that look like you than like me.
Speaker A
But I'm I'm I'm definitely going to reach out as um as I've supported the reverend. I haven't I haven't been to Target in forever and I'm a toy car collector so it's hard not to go in there for your Hot Wheels and you know
Speaker A
but so but uh but he's done a hell of a job. So I'm my community needs to be more aware of this because your yeah your values company has had a righteous effect. I um I want I want to know like should all companies
Speaker A
um especially as people are building have boards that are that that look out for their values and interests in the way that you and Jerry designed to I think that would be a beautiful world.
Speaker A
I I yeah as far as I'm concerned yeah that that's that's what they ought to do. Well, the idea is that you care that that there's other people that are stakeholders aside from your investors and and the idea is to care about your
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employees, care about the the community that you're part of. Uh, you know, care about your your vendors, your suppliers. thinking locally even in terms of you know you you you guys wanted to make good ice cream and it sound sounds like almost
Speaker A
okay we're local we care about our employees but so there's an interest beyond turning a profit for investors there's the the investment is in when you have employees you have stable communities you have better schools you produce more educ people
Speaker A
yeah yeah but I mean even outside of our our local community uh you know it's a question of how do you source your ingredients.
Speaker A
Okay. So, you know, you can source your your coffee uh for your coffee flavors in a way that's exploits the the small farmers that are growing and harvesting the stuff or you can source it in a way that supports them.
Speaker A
Yeah. Uh you know, through co-ops and through fair traded products. Uh so you have continually made good choices.
Speaker A
Exactly. You have to you have to think about all the impacts that your that your business has.
Speaker A
What what advice if you were going back talking to 26 year old Ben would and Jerry would you give them in terms of protecting the mission long term because you guys from 78 to 2000's a hell of a you know that's
Speaker A
a that's a long run. Uh, you know, I I think things went really well uh until, like I say, we hired the wrong CEO.
Speaker A
I got you. I understand. Well, um, and I'll tell you something about CEOs that I've noticed is that the quality of the CEO was in inverse proportion to how much they got paid.
Speaker A
The guys that got paid the least were the best. I got you. I got you.
Speaker A
Cuz, you know, maybe because they weren't, you know, so so money oriented. You know, when we cash out and sell this show, I'm I'm going to I'm going to tell Swift that it just it just sound like a bunch of
Speaker A
greed, man. It's greedy. [ __ ] just greedy. That's it. You you Yeah, they are. Me and you talk about the border, too. And what what's your what are you looking at that like now? I mean the the um the border was a
Speaker A
concern. You went down, didn't you? Didn't you go down to the border at one point?
Speaker A
No, no, not someone went down. You talking about the Mexican border? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was I was wondering does that I thought you had some thoughts on that, but if you don't that's fine, but I thought there were
Speaker A
some thoughts in terms of immigration, the American landscape where seem to be at [ __ ] war now. What like you know I I don't get it. I I mean what I thought your generation was supposed to fix this [ __ ]
Speaker A
Every generation says that, you know, they say it's a Christian country. I mean, in our in our on our currency, you know, when there used to be paper currency, it said in God we trust. Yes.
Speaker A
And uh I thought you're supposed to welcome the stranger, feed the stranger, house the stranger.
Speaker A
Uh you know, what you do to the least of these, you do to me. Yeah.
Speaker A
I mean, Jesus was a great guy. I I mean, I love the guy. And uh but what passes for so-called Christianity today is ain't what Jesus, it's not about Jesus.
Speaker A
Jesus, when you read about him, he sounds like a socialist. Yes. Absolutely. It amazes me how many crazy ass Americans when I hear talking about him, he's like a he's like a um he's like a spirit of ecstasy. Ecstasy on an
Speaker A
American Rolls-Royce. like he's a he's an idol. He's a figurehead. He's not We don't live to the principles. Like our prisons wouldn't look like they looked if we were Christlike followers.
Speaker A
Absolutely. The last person he saved before he ascended was was a [ __ ] thief. A self-compressed thief right dying right there next to him like, "I'm [ __ ] up.
Speaker A
Can I ride with you?" And Jesus, come on, my [ __ ] You know, it's um it I don't even know if you can agree with that man.
Speaker A
Get the [ __ ] out of here. But I I just say it just because I I I do believe that all jokes aside that we do not attempt to truly live in a Christlike manner. And I wish we did.
Speaker A
You know, I really wish. Absolutely. You know, we supposed to take in the sick and shut and I don't have much else to say. I I'd like for you to reiterate where we need to go to sign the free Ben
Speaker A
& Jerry's. Where are we going? You go to freeben andjerry's.com. Yep. There's no apostrophe and it's spelled out.
Speaker A
Yep. And if we're going to continue to buy Ben and Jerry's because we want the employees, they work so hard um to make this brand what it is. You care about those folks. So, we're going to continue to buy Ben and Jerry's. But what we're
Speaker A
not going to buy is Magnum. I don't buy any Magnum unless it's a rubber. Young men buy Magnum.
Speaker A
Let me ask you a question. What's the What's the What's with the toys? What's with the toys? Well, this is the the Magnum Monster coming coming to kill the Ben & Jerry. the poor little Ben and Jerry's pint.
Speaker A
And this one, this one is, you know, Magnum saying, "Oh, yeah. I'm all hard.
Speaker A
I'm all hard. I really care." But you turn them around. So, last question and I'm out of here.
Speaker A
Can I get your autographs? Hey, if I can get your autograph. First time. I mean, it's the first time for everything.
Speaker A
Can I get Can I get ice cream out there? I'm I'm on the board of uh the marijuana company. Could you talk a little bit about that and and close us out?
Speaker A
Uh yes. Uh we've been trying so long to sell marijuana. I just don't think we're fit to do it.
Speaker A
I I I tell you this is the most awarded uh cannabis company that's never seen the light of day. And uh what I've got is a whole lot of empty packages because I had this idea that we were
Speaker A
going to be uh this low THC product that was going to be pre-rolls and it was going to be tarpine forward and it was going to be consistent, you know, because it's really hard to find consistent pot and
Speaker A
it's really hard to find consistent pot. It didn't it didn't uh we we ran into some problems trying to keep it consistent. Um but uh we did make headway. It it's now a nonprofit. I mean, it's always been a nonprofit, but
Speaker A
now it's a nonprofit and it's and it's and its purpose is to uh kind of support uh black cannabis entrepreneurs. And uh so we're we're get we're we're continuing to talk and we're continuing to make headway. And I I
Speaker A
actually believe that one of these days we're going to pull it off. V3 is actually going to be a product on your shelf. And not only are we going to have the low THC stuff for me and my
Speaker A
friends, but we're going to have the high THC stuff for you and your friends.
Speaker A
I I push for that one. I'm glad to see it. I It is. and Senator Nina Turner. For those who wondered where Nah's been, she's also on the board. She was here a few days ago. We didn't get to interview
Speaker A
her, but she in terms of the progressive movement beyond um Sanders, um I have grown to befriend you and Nina Turner in particular, and you guys are through and through progressives and so are you. And I what I want is to
Speaker A
bring together all these disperate progressive uh groups. You know, you know, there's like black progressive groups, there's white progressive groups, there's environmental people, there's people that are focused on education, there's people that are focused on uh uh what justice cash bail.
Speaker A
Yeah. Uh and but we're all about the same thing. Yes. And uh we got to cooperate and collaborate. The problem is that nobody's going to accomplish any of the things they're trying to do, including me, alone, unless we all come together. And and
Speaker A
that's what I'm hoping to do is to have a platform for not not a politician's platform, but the people's platform that this is what we believe in and we want to elect uh you know politicians that agree with these principles and we
Speaker A
there's a lot of us and if you want our votes come on board. Amen.
Speaker A
Amen. Ben Cohen, anything else to say? I don't know. Just that I love you, baby. And it's really good to be with you and and your your your people here.
Speaker A
Yeah. Hi, I'm Ben. Thank you guys, man, for joining us and Ben Cohen. Um, freeben andjerry's.com.
Speaker A
We're still buying Ben and Jerry's because we're supporting employees and the workers who work so hard to build such a socially significant and valued band. We're putting a pause on um on Magnum. Not that we got any hate toward
Speaker A
your flavors, but you ain't treating our people right. Love and respect. Thank you guys. Welcome next week to Conversate where we'll be doing some more controversial [ __ ] Sign the petition. Sign the petition.
Speaker A
Sign the petition. Let's eat some ice cream and get high. Yeah. All right. It's lunch time.
Speaker A
Yeah, it is. My name is Michael Ren. They call me Killer Mike. And this is Conversate.
Speaker A
Conversate. I just want to conversate. I just want to conversate. I I just want to conversate with you. I want to I want to convert conversation.
Speaker A
Conversation is not a real word, but I encourage questioning. I want to encourage thought. I want to conversate.
Speaker A
I want to have discussions with people that that I may not agree with or that I may not understand and try to gain perspective. I think we all should be doing that. We all should be in talk.
Speaker A
You know, we all should be in a constant state of talking cuz that's what precedes organizing and mobilizing and and revolutionizing and changing things.
Speaker A
I believe in the power of conversation. I believe in conversation. So, I'm here um to talk. I'm here to talk and I'm here to listen and learn and I'm here to I'm here to have people impress upon me
Speaker A
different ways and and thoughts and mentality. I believe in conversation. I believe in job talking and rapping, whatever you call it. I'm a rapper. I'm rapping. before rappers rapping over beats for money. I want to exchange some respect with one another, you know. So,
Speaker A
we going to conversate. We going to check it out. Yeah. Conversation Killer Mike. Hey y'all. Y'all got a question for my crew. You want to talk to me, Bear Swift, or anybody and ask them something, I want you to come check us
Speaker A
out at conversatewithkillermikegmail.com. Send your questions in, send your thoughts and concerns, and we're going to make sure we get them up online where it'll be discussed, talked about, and hey, we even might invite you on the show.
Topics:Killer MikeBen CohenBen and Jerry'sactivismsocial justicepolitical engagementvalues-led businessAtlanta hip hopcommunity organizingConversate
