Blood on the Carpet: Ice Cream Wars [BBC, 1999] — Transcript

[Music] Dennis Hurley is in one of the meanest businesses on Earth. Welcome to the Jungle. It's the ice cream business. You know, on the outside, it's fun. It's ice cream. Everybody loves ice cream. It's sweet, it's kids, it's happiness. The reality of the business side of ice cream is it's one of the dirtiest businesses there is. His family created the Mighty Haanas, the biggest luxury ice cream in the world. His father Kevin ran the company. Haanas was a steamroller. It was just going and whatever was in its path, it took care of. When two hippie ice cream makers tried to take on the might of the empire, they were sucked into a David and Goliath battle for survival. I think what Haanas was trying to do was illegal, and the question was would a small company like Ben and Jerry be able to fight them? This is a war. This isn't about friendships. It's not about respect. You know, respect are the guys who ultimately win. [Music] The upstarts met at school 35 years ago in New York. Ben and I were not really in the mainstream of social activities in school. We were not cool kids. We were the nerdy kids. After school, they grew beards, moved into an apartment with their dog Malcolm, and got a succession of dead-end jobs. I think we were the only two of our friends that did not appear to be getting anywhere in the world, so to speak. So, I thought, well, maybe I could try starting my own business, and maybe I could do it with Jerry. United by a love of food, the hippies agreed the best conceivable business was one that involves a great deal of eating. The two big things that were happening in food at the time were homemade ice cream and bagels. We actually went to a used restaurant supply place and priced out equipment for making bagels, and it was $40,000, and we knew that was more money than we had, so we figured ice cream had to be cheaper. We picked ice cream. They sent off for a $5 correspondence course in ice cream making, then turned an abandoned petrol station in Burlington, Vermont, into the town's first homemade ice cream parlor. Ben and Jerry's was born. Ben and I were working there all the time, and people obviously figured out who we were, and I think people liked the ice cream, and they liked the idea that, you know, these were two regular guys opening up a little store, and they wanted to support what we were doing, so everybody came. The shop was a surprise hit and became the hangout of every fun-loving eccentric in town. It even had its own resident blues piano man, Don Rose. Jerry's was on the corner of St. Paul Street, off from Pine. Ben and Jerry's was on the corner of St. Paul Street, up from Pine. Oh, it was just the funkiest ice cream shop I ever been in, that's for sure. Ben and Jerry were just, you know, all smiles, and the ice cream was great. The people that worked there were great. You had the smell of the big kettle of hot fudge just smoldering away there behind the counter, and just the smells were just enough to put you in heaven. Ben and Jerry made every day one big party, and when the day was all done, I'm going to sing my scooper song. Yeah. The key was their unique ice cream. In a world of boring old chocolate, coffee, and vanilla, Ben and Jerry made weird flavors with lumps in nearly everything. They laid their hands on, wound up in the ice cream. Yes. Look at this. Oh, a giant salami didn't make it. Didn't make it. They were the original ice cream anarchists. This is good. United by an unwavering devotion to the chunk. That's a huge chunk. I mean, you know, you put that in your mouth, you know, in a teaspoon, and you know you got a significant percentage of the volume occupied by the teaspoon that is nut. And, you know, as opposed to, you know, this kind of [ __ ] you know, I mean, this is absurd. I mean, ice cream companies put this in ice cream and they call it peanut. No, you need a big mother peanut. How's that? That first spectacular summer, Burlington went chunk crazy. There was just one crucial flaw in their business. [Music] Plan. It's damn cold here in Burlington, Vermont, and sure enough, come the winter, nobody was buying our ice cream. We started selling to some local restaurants to try to survive, and then after we bought a truck, it was costing us more money to repair this old truck that we bought than we were making selling ice cream. That was a really rough time. Bankruptcy loomed. They managed to stay alive that winter by selling tubs of ice cream through local grocery stores, but to be a real commercial success, they'd have to start selling outside their home state. All we were thinking about was what we needed to do to keep things going. We had virtually no money. I became the salesperson for the company, and my task was to sell our ice cream to independent ice cream distributors in the neighboring states. Ben and Jerry were about to feel the chill of business reality. Lesson number one: big supermarket chains don't buy ice cream from hippies straight out of the back of pickup trucks. They use a handful of specialist distributors to get onto the shelves. Ben and Jerry would have to enlist the support of a middleman. Most distributors would view an untried product like theirs as a commercial gamble. If they couldn't be persuaded to see things differently, Ben and Jerry's dreams of expansion would just melt away. Top of their hit list was leading distributor Dennis Silva. One day I get to the yard, and there's this car out there, and the windows were all fogged up and iced up, and I say, geez, what's that car doing here? I come into my office, and later around that morning, Ben Cohen shows up, and he looked like he just gotten out of bed and slept in his clothes and so forth, and he sat in front of me, and I said, geez, Ben, how long you been here? He said, well, a little while. I was out in my car. I said, was that your car out there that was all frosted up? Yeah, that was my car. He says, I arrived here middle of the night, 4:00 in the morning, and it's the cheapest hotel I could find, so I just kind of went to sleep, and I woke up when I got real cold. I would drive there at night and get to the distributor's place and sleep in my car until my appointment the next morning. One middleman wouldn't be enough. They also needed to bag the other key New England distributor, Chuck Green. The way Ben walked in the door, when you look from a standpoint of who you'd buy ice cream from or a food product, Ben just didn't connote food. He connote that he ate a ton of food, but not that he could sell food successfully. He sat in my office, and after a few minutes, he got very comfortable and put his feet up on my desk, and he was wearing tennis sneakers. He said, do you have any coffee or anything like that? You know, I haven't eaten in about 8 or 10 hours, and Ben liked to eat, and we had, he consumed quite a bit in this little kitchen that we had, and he said, I'm not quite ready to see you yet. I'm going to eat a little bit. And even in our environment, Ben was calling the shots. Both Chuck and Dennis fell for Ben's charm and his chunks. Ben and Jerry's became the latest entrant into the so-called super premium ice cream category, a market dominated by one company with more than a 70% share of all super premium sales. The undisputed king of luxury ice cream was Haanas. [Music] Kevin Hurley was the president of Haanas. I had a woman tell me that it was better than sex with her husband. I had another woman tell me that she knew how Haanas came to the United States, that she had heard that Frank Sinatra brought it to the United States. Ian, you can argue with these people if you would. If you would say to them, look, let me tell you the real story, they wouldn't accept that Haanas was the brainchild of Kevin's father-in-law, Ruben Mattis. In 1959, he created an ice cream in his New York factory that sounded like it came from much further afield. Reuben always used to say, you want someone to notice, you take a salami and...

happiness the reality of the of the business side of ice cream is it's one of the dirtiest businesses there is his family created the Mighty hundas the biggest Luxury Ice Cream in the world his father Kevin ran the company haanas

was a steamroller it was just going and what was in its path it took care of when two hippie ey scream makers tried to take on the might of the Empire they were sucked into a David and Goliath

battle for survival I think what pandas was trying to do was illegal and the question was would a small company like Ben and Jerry be able to fight them this a war this isn't about friendships it's not about respect

you know respect are the guys who ultimately win [Music] the upstarts met at school 35 years ago in New York Ben and I were not really in the mainstream of social activities in school we were not cool kids we were the

nerdy kids after school they grew beards moved into an apartment with their dog Malcolm and got a succession of dead end jobs uh I think we were the only two of our friends that did not appear to be uh

getting anywhere in the world so to speak so uh I thought well maybe I could try starting my own business and maybe I could do it with Jerry United by a love of food the hippies agreed the best conceivable

business was one that involves a great deal of eating the two big things that were happening in food at the time were uh homemade ice cream and uh Bagels we actually went to a you used restaurant supply place and priced out equipment

for making bagels and it was $40,000 and we knew that was more money than we had so we figured ice cream had to be cheaper we picked ice cream they sent off for a $5 correspondence course in ice cream

making then turned an abandoned petrol station in Burlington Vermont into the town's first homemade ice cream parlor Ben and Jerry's was born Ben and I were working there all the time and people obviously fig figured out who we were

and I think people like the ice cream and they like the idea that you know these were two regular guys opening up a little store and uh they wanted to support what we were doing so everybody came the shop was a surprise hit and

became the hangout of every funloving eccentric in town it even had its own resident blues piano man Don Rose jer's was on the corner of St Paul Street of from Pine Ben and Jerry's was on the corner St Paul Street up from

Pine oh it was just the funkiest ice cream shop I ever been in that's for sure Ben and Jerry were just you know all smiles and the ice cream was great the people that worked there were great you had the smell of the big kettle of

hot fudge just smoldering away there behind the counter and just the smells were just enough to put you in heaven Ben and Jerry made every day one big party and when the day all done I'm going to sing my scoer

song yeah the key was their unique ice cream in a world of boring old chocolate coffee and vanilla Ben and Jerry made weird flavors with lumps in nearly everything they laid their hands on wound up in the ice cream yes

look at this oh a giant salami didn't make it didn't make it they were the original ice cream anarchists this is good United by an unwavering Devotion to the chunk that's a huge chunk I mean you know you put that in uh in your mouth

you know in a in a teaspoon and you know you got a significant percentage of the volume occupied by the teaspoon that uh that is nut and um you know as opposed to you know this kind of [ __ ] you know I mean this is absurd

I mean ice cream companies put this in ice cream and they call it pean no you need a big mother pean how's that that first spectacular summer Burlington went chunk crazy there was just one one crucial floor in their

business [Music] plan it's uh damn cold here in uh Burlington Vermont and uh sure enough come the winter nobody was buying our ice cream we started selling to some local restaurants to try to survive and then uh after we bought a

truck uh it was costing us more money to repair this old truck that we bought than we were making selling ice cream that was a really rough time bankruptcy loomed they managed to stay alive that Winter by selling tubs of ice cream

through local grocery stores but to be a real Commercial Success they'd have to start selling outside their home state all we were thinking about was uh what we needed to do to keep things going we had virtually no money

uh I I became the salesperson for the the company uh and uh my task was to uh sell our ice cream to Independent ice cream distributors uh in the neighboring [Music] states Ben and Jerry were about to feel

the chill of business reality lesson number one big Supermarket chains don't buy ice cream from hippies straight out of the back of pickup trucks they use a handful of specialist distributors to get onto the shelves Ben and Jerry would

have to enlist the support of a middleman most Distributors would view an untried product like theirs as a commercial gamble if they couldn't be persuaded to see things differently Ben and Jerry's dreams of expansion would just melt away top of their Hit List was leading

distributor Dennis [Music] Silva one day I get to the yard and there's this car out there and the the windows were all fogged up and iced up and I say geez what's that car doing here I come into my office and later

around that morning Ben Cohen shows up and he looked like he just uh gotten out of bed and slept in his clothes and so forth and he sat in front of me and I said geez Ben how long you been here he

said well a little while I was out in my car I said was that your car out there that was all frosted up yeah that that was my car he says uh I arrived here middle of the night 4:00 in the morning

and uh it's the cheapest hotel I could find so uh I just kind of went to sleep and uh I woke woke up when I got real cold I would drive there at night and uh get to the distributor's place and sleep

in my car until uh until the you know until my appointment the next morning one middleman wouldn't be enough they also needed to bag the other key New England distributor Chuck green the way Ben walked in the door when you look

from a standpoint of Who You'd buy ice cream from or a food product Ben just didn't canote food it canote that he he ate a ton of food but not that he could sell food successfully he sat in my

office and after a few minutes he got very comfortable and put his feet up on my desk and uh he was wearing tennis sneakers he said uh do you have any coffee or anything like that you know I

haven't eaten in in about 8 or 10 hours and Ben you know uh likeed to eat and uh we had uh he he consumed quite a bit in this little kitchen that we had and he said I'm not quite ready to see you yet

I'm I'm going to eat a little bit and even in our enironment Ben was calling the shots book Chuck and Dennis fell for Ben's charm and his chunks Ben and Jerry's became the latest entrance into the so-called super premium ice cream

category a market dominated by one company with more than a 70% share of all super premium sales the Undisputed king of Luxury Ice Cream was haand us [Music] Kevin Hurley was the president of hundas I had a woman tell me that it was better

than sex with her husband I had another woman tell me that she knew how haanas came to the United States that she had heard that Frank Sinatra brought it to the United States Ian you can argue with these people if you would if you would

say to them look let me tell you the the real story they wouldn't accept that hundas was the brainchild of Kevin's father in-law Ruben Mattis in 1959 he created an ice cream in his New York Factory that sounded like it came

from much further a field Reuben always used to say you want someone to notice you take a salami and put it under your arm you know that was one of his remarks be different he always liked the Danes he

loved the Danish people you know he says and I'm going to give it I'm going to put the Danish flag on there you know something foreign he says if I put something foreign in the ice cream cabinet and people will look at it

they'll say what's that and he did by 1984 hundas had become a subsidiary of Pillsbury a gigantic food conglomerate that owned a slate of successful companies including Green Giant and Burger King Pillsbury at the time was a $4

billion company that's big we didn't really talk about billions in those days by comparison Ben and Jerry were a tiny blip but they were now growing outside Vermont and were planning on moving to a new much larger Factory then out of the blue their

Distributors received a fateful phone call hagendaz gave me a call and somewhere in 1984 spring of 84 and suggested at that time that uh it was time for me to make a decision as to which product line I was going to carry

do you want to carry hogendas or do you want to carry Ben and& Jerry's we said it's user them exactly right we said it's us or them mhm we felt we needed a commitment from the distributor we were just stunned at

this uh comment coming from hagendaz this huge company where we were selling trailer loads of ice cream versus this minuscule amount of Ben and& Jerry's we were selling that they had made a you know they had drawn the Line

in the Sand and said you're going to have to make a decision when someone says to you you have to make a decision you have two children which one do you decide on um do you want the one that

was born first or you want the baby the one was born second or how do you make that decision you love them both equally um some people can't relate to that is because it's a business and you say well

how do you love two ice cream product lines um it's no different it's the oxygen that we breathe as far as the company goes they were both oxygen lines coming into our company and somebody you have to snip one tie one off so you have

to learn to breathe with one lung we didn't say to the distributor you can't carry Ben and& Jerry's we said to the distributor look you know what what you're doing is you're you're you're asking us to uh we're asking you to make

a choice you can carry Ben and& Jerry's we don't have any problem with that we'll we'll restructure our distribution system if need be if you want to carry Ben and Jerry that's up to you but you can't carry both Brands it was not their

distribution Network it was an independent distribution network of uh independently owned companies that were delivering many brands of ice cream and for some reason hogendas felt like it was their Distributors as opposed to these Independent Business people if

they were going to say that if a distributor carries hogendas they can't carry Ben and jurries essentially there was no Distributors that we could sell to to get our ice cream to retail stores and so we'd be out of business hug and dust

demanded that Chuck and Dennis sign a legal agreement promising they'd stop selling Ben and Jerry's after working so hard to grow their business the hippies knew they were on the brink of losing it all in desperation they arranged a

secret crisis meeting with their Distributors at Boston's Logan airport we met discussed for probably a couple hours uh what if what if we don't do this what if we don't do that and how could we uh fight off someone with the

large number of uh resources and the funds that they have versus Ben and Jerry's which is a relatively small company didn't have any marketing funds certainly didn't have any attorney fees or or shall I say funds put aside to

battle something like this they had to find a way of raising enough money to mount a legal challenge it was Ben Who provided the inspiration Ben said I've got an idea he said I charge you X for ice cream how

about Ben would think and think and said how about if I had a dollar every pint I sell you every sleeve of pints I'd sell you and we all looked at each other and said oh here he goes again CU he always

had a different way of looking at things and he said this way for you buy more ice cream we keep putting this into a fund for a legal battle and he said I'll pay you back when we win for the legal battle they needed a

lawyer they chose one because his shoes were falling apart it is true I often have holes in my shoes I actually have a hole in my shoe today I saw you think I'd have fixed it by now but it must be

a different pair ho fugay had built his career defending large corporations but when Ben and Jerry approached him the urge to switch Allegiance was irresistible it was really a David and Goliath story we were the small guy just

asking for a fair crack at the consumer how's first move was to write a stinging letter to Pillsbury announcing his determination to defend Ben and Jerry vigorously in court it would be wish thinking on the part of your

subsidiaries officers that's hogendas to imagine that it can bully Ben and& Jerry's stifle its growth and cause it to roll over Ben and jurys is a classic entrepreneurial success and its owners are aggressive they like the taste of

success and they will fight for it hogendas will have to learn to compete on the merits in the marketplace that is the American way and that is what competition is all about I think that's summarized our our position pretty

well Ben and Jerry's you know these two country boys from gont were now going to sue us uh because they wanted the right to use our distribution system to get their products to stores uh because they didn't want to take the time and the

trouble and the effort the expense to go out and develop a distribution system on their own so so they suit us odds were that we were going to lose you know they were much bigger than us the odds were that they were going to

beat us I mean usually that's what happens when a big company starts beating up on a little company big company wins pillsbury's crack in-house legal department boasted 17 lawyers the 17th name on the list was assigned to the

task of disposing of hoe and the hippies our list as is uh as is the way with with law firms or law departments listed all of our attorneys alphabetically I believe starting with Carter and ending with wager they

certainly could have asked to speak with Betsy Carter that would have been fine with me Pillsbury showed no sign of being rattled and [ __ ] notified their Distributors they had 6 weeks to get Ben and Jerry's ice cream off their trucks

Ben and Jerry knew they'd have to take matters into their own hands we made a decision that uh if we were if we were going to go down we were at least going to let uh as many people as we knew as

we could know what was going on uh know that uh you know the reason why you can't find Ben and Jerry's on the Shelf is because this this big Corporation is trying to prevent you the consumer from having a choice about what kind of ice

cream you want to buy we want wanted to make Pillsbury the target not hogendas uh Pillsbury being the parent company and we felt like if uh if it was just perceived as as Ben and jer's versus hogendas it was going

to be seen as just one ice cream company battling another one but we wanted to you know demonstrate that it was this little uh local ice cream company fighting this big uh corporate conglomerate they took it right to the

top they targeted the most powerful man within the giant Pillsbury Corporation distinguishing features a fixed grin a playful Giggle and a body made of flour yeast and water his name the Pillsbury Doughboy the Doughboy is the company presidents and chairman have come and

gone but the Doughboy has remained constant we just wanted to give it a black eye we we wanted to uh paint it as uh kind of an evil little creature proud symbol of the company since the mid-60s the Doughboy looked

like he'd never hurt a fly Ben and Jerry set out to portray him as the criminal mastermind behind a conspiracy to drive their business into the ground the American people love the underdog uh we knew that we were the

underdog there's no doubt about it and we decided to play that for all it was worth they made sure their battlecry was heard everywhere t-shirts badges even the backs of buses demanded to know what's the Doughboy afraid of they set

up a doughboy telephone Hotline in return for a campaign contribution of $1 callers received a bumper sticker and a letter of protest pre- addressed to the chairman of Pillsbury They promoted a boycott of all Pillsbury product which for them meant a self-sacrificing

denial of their beloved Burger King and just in case Pillsbury tried to turn a blind eye Jerry launched a one-man picket outside their Global corporate headquarters in Minneapolis we didn't really know a thing about PR uh we were just trying to

survive uh we were just doing whatever came into our heads uh whatever we could do to let the public know what was going on the campaign was a public relations Master stroke Pillsbury was stunned oh I don't I don't think they

were happy to see the Doughboy getting bashed I think uh you know that's uh you know the Doughboy is sacred the Doughboy had never been under attack in that fashion uh before in his career the hippies were even attracting support

from some unusual quarters Ben obtained a photocopy of a letter sent to one of pillsbury's board of directors it was signed Charles Pillsbury uh and we you know realized that you know this was pillsbury's kid and he said uh you know I'm very

disappointed at the actions of the company against this small Vermont company and uh I look forward to discussing it with you Dad when uh when I see you for Christmas dinner that drove home to management uh how this whole ordeal

could get twisted around in the mind of the public we had really struck a vital cord when we combined the lawsuit with what's the Doughboy afraid of campaign attacking the Pillsbury Doughboy that was like a that was like going after

godmother and apple pie P look look the Doughboy himself was never was never afraid of anything what went wrong is that the publicity became bigger than the dispute itself the dispute was between Ben and Jerry's and hogendas those are the

competitors the personalization of the dispute on the back or on the stomach of the Doughboy was uh what Pillsbury was was very concerned about the Doughboy had nowhere to hide with Pillsbury reeling under the public relations battering hoe decided to pounce I called

Dick and I said we're going to go into court on Friday July 5 and make a motion for a temporary restraining order and we're going to get it I said it would be better for you if you signed a

stipulation that gave us the same relief but contained a sentence that said Pillsbury neither did not admit any wrongdoing because if we get a court order that will be item one in our press release that we will put out to the

public the Doughboy campaign uh was constantly being broadcast and receiving additional publicity it seemed to make sense to us to get that dispute behind us quickly if you're a corporate uh situation you make decisions defensively many times you make decisions not

because of the circumstance but because for the corporation it's the right decision to make at that particular time you don't always make the business decision for the business reason you make it for the for the company for the

good of the company Kevin Hurley signed an outof Court settlement with Ben and Jerry's in doing so he agreed not to coers any distributor to drop Ben and Jerry's ice cream David had slain G iath to celebrate Ben and Jerry ended

their boycott of Burger King by buying their entire stuff a Whopper Victory tasted sweet ah to sink your teeth into a nice warm soft fluffy roll and then enter the layer of mayonnaise you know the uh how do you

what do you what what is that mayonnaise like it's like slimy slimy slimy the and then finally the climax of The Burger the the burger chew you know I'm telling you you know you don't appreciate a Whopper until

you've been Whopper deprived [Laughter] it was a relief to win it was it was not like uh oh we've conquered the world it was like uh oh we're going to be able to stay in business and get our ice cream on the

shelves it was uh oh it was a relief as consumers sort out the ice cream behind the headlines sales of Ben and Jerry's rocketed by 1992 they were turning over more than $130 million and had become a ser ious rival to hundas

the Doughboy had helped turn them into an ice cream superpower I mean no one had ever heard of Ben and Jerry's before and no one would have heard for Ben and Jerry's for years and years so from a uh a business

point of view it moved us forward so much more even though that had never been our intent to begin with Pillsbury i' I'd like to thank you for all the help that you gave us by uh trying to

defeat us and put us out of business having you guys pick on us ended up to be the best thing that ever could have happened uh in terms of getting our ice cream on the map you know it's nice to nice to be

there on the Shelf with you thanks but Kevin Hurley was no longer in charge of ha andas by now the ice cream Kingpin had resigned grown a ponytail and started his own business alongside wife Doris and mother-in-law Rose he

created mattis's lowfat America's newest ice cream company it's tough to be uh Goliath and then become David I think it's a lot easier to be go the other way around if you're David and you become Goliath you feel good but if you're once Goliath and

you become David it's a lot tougher fronting the business is Kevin's son Dennis together they're still locking horns with Ben and Jerry only this time the tables have turned I think Ben and Jerry is the establishment now I guess would be the

best way to describe it you know they're not the small entrepreneur we're the small entrepreneur Dennis is the man Dennis is the point man for madis he's running the business dayto day on the street we've given him the Killer Instinct and he's

got the goals I mean you know he's got a Heritage behind him of success [Music] like Ben and Jerry before him Dennis's dreams of expansion have met with a chilly reception from the big ice cream companies when we first started out I

don't think anyone cared if we lived or died but as we began to push our way into these supermarkets the competition began to throw up every obstacle they could think of on the street at the headquarters level of these chains and

ultimately it isn't going to matter we just keep uh banging away despite their millionaire status Ben and Jerry clung to their hippie roots and were celebrated as ethics driven business Visionaries in 1993 they riged in $140 million and chose Great Britain as their

first International Conquest the guided tour of their production line became the single biggest tourist attraction in the state of Vermont containers and the ice cream that we can't use we'll save that up until the end of the day then we ship

that off to hog and Doss and that's what they sell for their ice cream although no longer in the same league as Ben and Jerry's mattis's were ready to expand their tiny Empire now they needed the support of the big

Distributors to go Nationwide but two familiar adversaries made sure they were in for a nasty surprise when we started Distributing m one of the first customers that we got was Southland corporation which operates 7-Eleven stores nationally in the United

States it was the first customer I said the first customers we got Southland said that you know we want you in all our stores nationally but you need to use existing Distributors so we went to visit the dry Distributors at

their corporate headquarters in California and we had I mean we knew the people there we had a long relationship with them and uh they told us that they had an agreement with Ben and Jared and in that distrib that distribution

agreement with Ben and Jerry's which was their right to distribute Ben and& Jerry's Ben and& Jerry's had a clause which protected which Protected Their right to tell dryers what kind of products they could carry Ben and Jerry's would make the

determination as to what was a competing brand right Ben Cherry said no you can't carry their brand they're a competing brand they used exactly the same argument that we used against Ben and Jerry's 10 years earlier that Ben and

Jerry's found distasteful and red to sue us over they used exactly the same argument they said we need the full and undivided attention of the distributors in order to support our when I called Jerry that was the argument he gave me

he gave me the argument that they they needed the full undivided attention of their distributor dryers and that uh Mattis in his opinion was a competitive product which it wasn't because it was the only lowfat product on the market at

the time we had a customer that wanted the product dryers told us they were willing to distribute the product and I said to Jerry hey Jerry you remember back about uh 12 years ago when you were standing in front of the Pillsbury

building with signs saying what's the Doughboy afraid of well tell me Jerry what's Ben and Jerry afraid of what's Ben and Jerry afraid of now it was Ben and Jerry's turn to deal with upstarts trying to take a chunk of their

business they specifically Target their product after hogendas which is you know certainly a competitor of ours and I think it's a little difficult to say for them that they compete with hogendas but not Ben in Jerry's it's that why is it good now

but it was it wasn't good I mean it's like so self- serving it works both ways for them the same argument works both ways when the little guy becomes the big guy you know you know does everything change does everything change yes the

problem in the hogendas situation with us was that hogendas had tied up all the major distributors and said that you know you can't carry any other competitive ice creams that would prevent any competitive ice cream from getting it distribution with us

we've picked one distributor and we've said you know we have an exclusive relationship with each other but there's lots of other options that are available uh to other ice cream companies mates know they're in for a long hard

fight but they say they're here to stay and they've no intention of letting two millionaire hippies get the better of them this is a rough and tumble business and uh you know you can't sit around and pout about this stuff you better do

something about it so you know if Ben and Jerry's felt that they were uh weren't given a fair shake they certainly did something about it and uh and they've built a very successful ice cream business for themselves and and in

our own way we hope hope to build another successful ice cream business in Madison's and uh you know we'll deal with whatever deck we're dealt the facts with us is that we are not the bad guys I mean certainly our

company is bigger than it used to be and our brand is better known than it used to be but we're not actively trying to keep competitors off the shelves I mean we're not actively trying to help competitors get on the shelves but uh

we're not trying to keep them off either if you're listening Jerry you know why stop us we're going to be there someday anyway why not just let us in you know at least you know they got rid of us once here we are again we're

like Freddy you know they can't kill us I'm not never ever ever going to let somebody else put me out of business so we are going to fight the fight buy the trucks run run the business keep the

product on the Shelf without respect the Ben and& Jerry's hoganas or anybody else [Music] [Music]