Matthew McCarthy of Ben and Jerry’s chats with #GaryVee… — Transcript

Every brand is trying to figure out its social mission in its depth. They've done some tactics, but it's not in their soul. You've the beneficiary of being the steward of a brand that has it in their DNA, their soul. How do you think about it? What are you seeing? What have you seen? What are some observations? Thanks for having me, and it's good seeing both of you guys. This is, I get, I get asked this a lot.

their soul how do you think about it what are you seeing what have you seen what are some observations uh thanks for having me and and it's good seeing both of you guys this is i get i get asked this a lot

Actually, and I think the first thing I'd say is it would be a big, big screw-up for anybody to say, "Well, businesses like Ben and Jerry's can do it because, you know, the two guys that started that business, they were hippies in Vermont and they can do that." That is a delegation and a disempowerment. And so what I'm trying to do these days is to actually show the stuff I'm getting wrong, particularly as a white dude of a lot of privilege who spent most of his life not understanding really the concept of white privilege, and trying to put our mistakes, my screw-ups out there to hopefully pull back the veil a bit. I don't think the world needs any more great stories or videos or cry-and-buy videos about how great any company is. I think we need to be doing this to be supporting each other, particularly if you're a white person running an organization and you're trying to figure out what the hell to do.

vermont and they can do that that is that is a delegation uh uh and a disempowerment and so what i'm trying to do these days is to actually show the stuff i'm getting wrong uh particularly as a white dude of a lot

Your authenticity doesn't come from what you say. It comes from the stuff you do, and our values drive what we do as people. It's very, it's kind of if A times B equals C, then A equals C.

great stories or videos or cry and buy videos about how great any company is i think we need to be doing this to be supporting each other particularly if you're a white person running an organization and you're trying to figure out what the hell to do

And so I really feel for, and sometimes angry when I see businesses going through the machinations about what should their agency help them do or what should—it's like, no, listen. I mean, listen. I mean, obviously Vayner's got a lot of clients, and during everyone came to me and like, "What do we tell our clients?" I'm like, you ask them what they believe. You know, I mean, like we're in the service business. We're, you know, to your point. Go ahead, Matt.

and so i i i really feel for and sometimes angry when i see businesses going through the machinations about what should their agency help them do or what should it's like no listen i mean listen i mean obviously vayner's got a lot of clients

No, I just, it sounds very simple. We're not taught to do this as business people, right? It's the business and there's the brand, and then maybe there's our product or our service, and then there's our heritage. The problem is that structural racism is in the heritage. It's everywhere. There's structural racism in Ben and Jerry's. It doesn't mean we're running around being vocal racists. The more I learn about the whole iceberg model, that you know, kind of over racism is the part above the water.

no i just uh it sounds very simple we're not taught to do this as business people right it's the business and there's the brand and then maybe there's our product or our service and then there's our heritage the problem is that structural racism is

Yeah, structural racism is the gigantic part underneath, and you just gotta ask yourself and do the due diligence. Why is it that way? And it's important that when people hear you, you know, this is what always happens.

yeah structure racism is the gigantic part underneath and you just gotta ask yourself and do the due diligence why is it that way and and it's important that when people hear you you know this is what always happens

When you make the statements you just made, a lot of people feel like it's casting judgment on them. They're literally on the other side of watching this video right now and saying, "I'm not racist." It's not about that. There's no confusion that the far majority of people are well-intent individuals. This is about—I always talk about it—this is not the cherry on top of the cupcake. It's the [expletive] batter that made the cupcake. And it's okay. And by the way, I have unlimited white friends that grew up in massive poverty and trailer parks and had no [expletive] privilege, by the way. We account like everybody's scenario is different. I have unlimited Black friends who grew up with all sorts of [expletive] money in the bank and BMWs at 13. Like, there's all sorts of things. Just acknowledging its truth without taking it personally.

confusion that the far majority of people are well intent individuals this is about i always talk about it this is not the cherry on top of the cupcake it's the [ __ ] batter that made the cupcake and it's and it's okay and by the way i

Yeah, that's the toughest thing. I mean, when the first—I had someone I was on a call with our franchises. We got hundreds of franchisees in our scoop shops, an incredible network. It's an incredible part of the Ben and Jerry's business that we, when we hire like 10,000 scoopers a year, we touch tens of millions of people through our scoop shops. It's a real, it's a big privilege to be part of an organization that was born as a scoop shop.

and bmw's at 13 like there's all sorts of things just acknowledging its truth without taking it personally yeah that's the toughest thing i mean when the first i had someone i was on a call with our franchises we got hundreds of

Well, it's a little pricey. You guys are premium. You know, I go in and get a little something for a whole lot of, but I appreciate it because it's quality, just like wine. So I don't judge it, but it's delicious.

real it's a big privilege to be part of an organization that was born as a school shop well it's a little pricey you guys are premium you know i go in and get a little something for a whole lot of but

Matt, some of my favorite tweets that I've seen out there recently are, "Yeah, this stuff's expensive, damn it," because here's what they do with that. And I'm like, yes, yeah, yeah. But I got to get this question: like defund the police, did you have to say it that way? Or dismantling a white supremacist culture, did you have to say it that way? Are you comfortable with that?

that and i'm like yes yeah yeah the uh but i got to get this question like defund the police did you have to say it that way or dismantling a white supremacist culture did you have to say it that way are you

Well, the answer is the first time I heard those terms, I was like, no. The first time someone said to me, "Man, we got a white supremacy culture here, in white supremacy structures," my initial reaction was exactly what you described. Whoa, whoa, I'm not a white supremacist. So white people—and I'm not saying I'm over it—I am not wagging the finger. I'll be the first one to say I don't know what I'm doing. Often, I have no idea what I'm doing. I got 30 years of business experience. I think I know business pretty well. Lots to learn there too.

described whoa whoa i'm not a white supremacist so white people and i'm not saying i'm over it i am not wagging the finger i'll be the first one to say i don't know what i'm doing often i have no idea what i'm doing i

You also know hair well.

uh it's not gonna happen brother it's not gonna happen uh but do you think i was that this last part of that sentence is just like if i wait until i think i'm ready i feel we can guarantee you i will have

You know hair well. I know you, Matthew. You take down that bun right now and everyone's gonna get fired up.

great phrase squander the opportunity i love that question for you is it how bad is it is it for for companies to fake like they're interested hygiene the the system is it better to be silent or is it better to fake authenticity and

Uh, it's not gonna happen, brother. It's not gonna happen.

obvious pricking questions um you know we we got a world of hyper transparency uh people don't believe that we have a crisis of trust in the world around us none of us are trusting the government or businesses or media or any of that stuff

But do you think—I was that last part of that sentence is just like, if I wait until I think I'm ready, I feel we can guarantee you I will have waited too long. I will have squandered the opportunity, the privilege that I have leading a business. And so to me, it's like if I wait till I feel I'm ready, I guarantee you that's doing it wrong.

and our business lives and it's much more comfortable to live in a world where there's this nice shroud around the business world we don't need to kind of pretend that we're humans at the same time but like wizard of oz man yes minds the man

Yeah, you said, Shane, that's a great phrase: squander the opportunity. I love that. Question for you: is it how bad is it for companies to fake like they're interested? Hygiene, the system. Is it better to be silent or is it better to fake authenticity and caring?

like death for a business and a brand pretend that's a faster debt so i guess i'd say that not putting your values out there you're dead you probably don't know it putting out there and faking it you're just

Oh, jeez. Oh, um, that was a good [expletive] question. Matt answered a [expletive] question. Don't blame Shane.

desert island like desert island it would be fish food it's just and i mean we also have peanut butter half baked out right now so we've got half baked one of our biggest flavors but we did a limited edition a few years

So no, I'm not Shane. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I, I, it's, maybe we should ask more obvious pricking questions. You know, we got a world of hyper-transparency. People don't believe that we have a crisis of trust in the world around us. None of us are trusting the government or businesses or media or any of that stuff.

about a corporate responsibility um do your c-level executives have that coming in do they learn that from being around you and being around the company how does how does that grow at the highest level um i'd say a couple things so

So, um, businesses have always acted by their values. It's called lobbying. Businesses have always done things. The issue at hand right here is that the stuff going on, the pandemics on pandemics, are piercing that fake veil between our humanity, our human lives, and our business lives. And it's much more comfortable to live in a world where there's this nice shroud around the business world. We don't need to kind of pretend that we're humans at the same time. But like Wizard of Oz, man, yes, minds the man behind the curtain. So businesses that don't put their values out there are simply lying. So to your question, if they're hiding them, they're lying or they're hiding them. So you can either put your head down in the foxhole, that's like death for a business and a brand, pretend that's a faster death. So I guess I'd say that not putting your values out there, you're dead. You probably don't know it. Putting out there and faking it, you're just prolonging the inevitable, which is the death of your brand.

started as a scooper over 30 years ago i've got other folks like uh dave rappaport who's our head of uh social mission he's been with the company for a couple years honorada chug who runs our business in europe she's been with us for about

Saying keep going without—what's your favorite flavor of Ben & Jerry's?

we respect the the longevity that they have within the business and how the newer folks can can bring some of that in we there is a saying in ben and jerry's that when you come to ben and jerry's

A little latter, the latter.

unilever you know there's a real hunger for people my colleagues people i've had about the privilege to work with who are trying to connect with their personal purpose and trying to all bring that into the stuff they're doing and that's not just

Um, man, um, it's tough. I'd say that Fish Food. Like my wife and I, if we look desert island, like desert island, it would be Fish Food. It's just—and I mean, we also have Peanut Butter Half Baked out right now. So we've got Half Baked, one of our biggest flavors, but we did a limited edition a few years ago called Peanut Butter Half Baked. That's out there now. It's, I don't know, those are two. I'd say like in the new Netflix flavor is also killing. So back now, back to the fastball. So you gave a really eloquent answer about corporate responsibility. Do your C-level executives have that coming in? Do?

that massively incongruous with the stuff i'm trying to do as a human and crises seem to speed this up right we see that all around like all of us go man am i doing this am i doing do i really want to keep

doing this right now so uh yeah that's that's that's a good question that's it that's a good question uh just to throw it around for a little bit more because we're obviously hitting yeah i don't want to let you go just yet

just really curious your take on tick tock i know this is a little fun question we've been serious now just how your brand has been thinking about that anything of that nature um i'm on tick tock almost every day uh okay you know

i actually love the platform as a person as a consumer there's something about the the the the summit about it i think is is very powerful uh period and i love it i find it super entertaining um uh and the second thing

i'd say as it leads to business i don't i don't know how we can best engage with with with with a platform like tick tock and do it in a way uh other than through fun right so ben

and jerry's we we try to create fun stuff you would take the topics like social mission social justice climate justice very seriously we try not to take ourselves too seriously we try to have fun and so i think that

you know as the team and again the team is a lot smarter than i am about how to how to do the marketing of ben and jerry's it's it would be around bringing that fun and that spirit and

and and keeping it light versus trying to you know shoehorn in some type of a a complex message like around juneteenth or defund the police investing communities we probably wouldn't use that for that matthew i love you it's always great to

see your face shane thank you matthew sorry you know gary brought me in to throw the fastballs today i'm sorry i'm sorry i had fastballs i had fastballs they're not basketballs for him he could hit him i'm i feel lucky you guys had me on

thank you shane and thank you gary i really appreciate it be well both of you