Breaking Free: Addiction, Identity & the Path to Spiritual Awakening with Eshwar Segobind

We find comfort in the known. We explain things to ourselves because we feel comfortable in knowing the explanation.

But we don't know the thing. And in order to know the thing, we have to give up the explanation and really just relax the explanation and see what's really there.

And, um, language can definitely tell us when we're trying to explain this aspect of it.

Hello and welcome to the channel. Today I have a really special guest, my good friend Eshwar, who grew up in the Caribbean, has gone through a few struggles in his life, including addiction, and ultimately found his way to a profound awakening.

We're going to talk about what it's really like to go through the darkness and come out transformed, not in some abstract way, but in real lived experience. So, if you're someone who's struggling, feeling stuck, or just looking for deeper meaning, this

conversation is for you. Eshwar, thank you so much for being here, man.

Thank you for having me. You have a big story to share because I've heard pieces of it before.

Let's start at the beginning. What was life like growing up?

Oh, Eric, thank you for having me.

As a wee little laddie, um, you know, life was peachy and hunky-dory. What were you doing growing up on the Emerald Isle of Ireland?

Yes, with, yeah, jewels and the streets paved with gold and whatnot.

You're black Irish, right? Is that what you told me?

I think so, yes. You did grow up on an island, though, didn't you? Or was it—Is it not an island?

I did. I grew up in Guyana. It's actually considered part of South America, but it's a group of islands, so it's not directly attached to South America, so it's considered part of the Caribbean islands as well.

So, um, yeah, I mean, I came to the States when I was nine, and, you know, there's some pretty heavy stuff that happened between nine and when I could remember, you know, what life is like. And some

pretty dark stuff, you know, sexual abuse stuff when I was a kid. Um, and those things kind of carried over, but life in general in that part of the world, it's considered a third world country,

but growing up, we didn't really think about it that way, you know, it was normal to get up and go with my dad to the pastures and milk the cows, and, you know, you have fresh, fresh cow

milk, you know, we had our own little garden, um, where we lived, and my dad was a rice farmer, and we went to school. So, it was, to me, that seemed pretty, pretty normal. I think the heavy

stuff that happened with me as a kid, um, they got blocked out by that kid at that time. It wasn't till, you know, these things manifest differently as we get a little older.

Mine's, you know, went in the way of addiction and some other things that kind of forces you to stop and then look at all of this stuff.

But childhood itself was pretty, pretty normal. I mean, we had fun. I have an older brother and a younger sister, and, you know, at nine is when we left and we came here to the States, and coming from a

tropical, tropical island and then we came to the States in December of 1990. That's a big, that's a big change, so. Yeah, what was that like? Where in the States did you come, and what did that bring? I would imagine

it brought some new struggles along with it.

Yeah, well, we came to New York, and, uh, we stayed with my grandfather, and it was, you know, a couple of different families that came up. My grandfather's, you know, they had a

large, a large family, lots of kids. So, at the time when everyone came to the States, we all stayed in the same house in Brooklyn. And, you know, everybody kind of stayed there for a

little bit. It was like base camp until everybody got themselves situated and moved out, but, um, I think the climate was like the biggest thing.

Um, and in the, you know, in the islands, you're allowed to—I mean, we roamed around and did all kinds of crazy stuff.

You go pick fruits and, you know, you go fishing and stuff, and then here you come in December to this place, and you're just indoors, and it's cold.

Yeah. You can't do anything else, so. That was a bit of an adjustment.

Yeah, no, no, just like climbing up any old mango tree and getting a snack. No.

No. Not at all. That was one of my favorite things about living in Costa Rica. It's just there were just mangoes everywhere. It's like, "Oh, I'm hungry. I think I'll just grab coconut trees, all kinds of fruits, mangoes,

cherries, cashews, um, just all kinds of stuff. And almost everybody had a garden, so you can walk from like one house to another house, a neighbor's house, and get something to eat, so. Yeah.

So, at what point after you got to the States did things start to shift for you and become more difficult?

Um, when I started going to high school. Um, me kind of growing up was a little—I would say the way to think about it was there wasn't very much conscious attention and like intent awareness of what was

going on. It was more like just going through the motions of going to school, coming back home, doing chores, that type of stuff.

When I went into high school, that's when I started to get a little bit more freedom.

And my dad wasn't around for a little while, and I was staying with my aunt and my uncle.

And, you know, I would stay out late with my friends and stuff, drinking, and at that time smoking weed, and just doing all kinds of crazy stuff. But that's when I think when I started to drink, that's when the childhood trauma

stuff started to surface. And I didn't recognize it at the time for what it was. Um, I just kind of wanted to be away from it because I didn't know how to deal with it, and I didn't know exactly

what it was. So, I did—I kept on, you know, I kept on drinking. It didn't get bad right away.

The things really got bad—when it really got bad was, I think, right before I had gotten married, and I was in my late, my late 20s. That's when things were like I would drink, get drunk, and

do some pretty, pretty gnarly stuff, and then I wanted to stop, but I couldn't stop.

And that took me to some pretty, pretty dark places. I think there were a few times I tried to take my own life.

Wow. There were times when I was like I was sitting in the basement on a toilet with a gun to my head, like quite a few times, drunk. And I don't know why I never pulled the trigger, but

it was—I mean, I wanted to stop. I just didn't know how to stop. And things were getting more and more dark, more and more violent. My actions were becoming that way towards others.

And it was always lashing out against people that I loved. And it carried over to when I got married, and afterwards when I had kids, you know, I would get pretty loud and obnoxious, and I remember one time it was—I could see

it—I scared my daughter at the time. I think she was, she was like 2 years old.

But it wasn't enough for me to like get a jolt to my system to really do something about it.

But there was a particular instance that occurred, and the gist of it was my wife looked at me, she said, um, I never thought that you could hurt our kids, but after last night, there's no doubt in my mind that you

would. And she's like, "You need to do something." And I don't remember—I don't know what she was talking about.

And as the day progressed, it started to come to me what really went on.

Um, but things could have gotten really bad, but they didn't. So, I made a phone call. I made a phone call to get into treatment, and I'm guessing they hear that stuff a lot because when I called, I told them,

you know, I believe I called like a Thursday, and they said they had a bed, um, and I said, "Well, I'll be there Monday."

And they were like, "Nah, you're full of crap." I was like, "Well, I was like, listen, man, I have a pretty big work project I need to complete and then I'll be there Monday."

Um, and it was true.

So, let's see what happens. It was like the first time I was in in a space that I had no idea what was going to what was going to occur. You know, prior to that, I'm an electrician and you know, a lot

of stuff I know, you know, that's those are skills that I have and I use those skills to to create solutions for problems. And there is only a set amount of ways something can break when it comes to

electrical, it's an outlet. And I know all the ways it's going to break, so I know everything I need to do to troubleshoot and to fix that. When it came with me in that space, I didn't know anything. So, it was like

that was to me like the moment of surrender. And that was like for me that was the unknown there because I did I there was no way to me to even cast out a projection of what it would

look like for me to be in that place. What was that moment like? It was like coming up to a wall and not knowing what was on the other side.

And the only thing that I could do was to be willing. That was it. It wasn't even to be willing to go through the wall, go under the wall, go over a wall to go see what's on the

other side. I just have to be willing. That that's all that was required. That's the way it came to me. It was like, you just need to be willing. And it was like, I was like, it was like complete acceptance of

whatever it is that was going to come. And I have I had no image in my mind of what that would even look like, whatever it was that was going to come.

I had no idea what that would look like. Without any I just didn't know.

So. Was was it gradual or kind of all at once? No, that was uh in that moment that was that was like all at once. That was just like boom.

And for me, that primed the I would say the speed in which this occurred.

From from that space into the the full-blown um dissolution of self and identity because I was just so ready to see whatever it was that was going to come and I was fully open to whatever that was going to look like

without me having any expectations. And I did I didn't have any impositions either and I didn't know anything about it.

And as I started to go through go through this process, then it was like everything was just being revealed. It was like, you know, when they say you're the block to yourself, it's it's true.

We like we can block ourselves with our ideas that we have of what we think this is based on what we we have collected from others of what this is supposed to look like and we go chasing what this is

supposed to look like instead of seeing what's actually happening. So, when you talk about seeing what's actually happening, kind of what was your first glimpse of awakening and could you kind of lead me through what it was like to

to kind of be having these two things happening at the same time, this kind of like was this spiritual awakening coming alongside this you know, uh move out of being in such a dark place from addiction and and everything that

you've been going through? The the biggest shift early on for me was um this anger management therapy thing that we were doing. And the the anger management therapist I was going through or or was teaching us about it. Um a lot

of it was like one-on-one sessions. But I I really didn't give him the the time of day until I understood that he was a musician and he went through the addiction process itself. So, and it was interesting. It was once I could

relate to him on an experiential level, saying that, you know, he's not talking to me based on what he learned in a book, it's from his direct experience of what this thing actually looks like.

Um then I started to feel more relaxed and started to open up to him. And the this thing of resentment and anger uh was something that always came up with me.

And when I started to to see that the resentment itself was something that I was creating, it just kind of dawned on me to just let it go. But there wasn't anything that I could do to let it go. I just

needed to see that my my resentments were my undoing. So, an example of that would be um like my my father-in-law.

He he did something that I didn't quite quite like. But instead of having a discussion and a conversation with him, I had this story inside of my head of, well, he wronged me.

He he didn't take the time to even consider how I felt. Well, how was he going to know that if I didn't take the time to to have a discussion with him in a conversation.

But I ran with the story inside of my mind and then every time I would see him, I would have this adverse reaction to him. And meanwhile, he has no idea what's going on, but I'm all, you know, moody and pissy and up inside

my head and in my feelings about something that the guy is completely unaware of.

Yeah. And then I when I saw that, well, I'm making up this story and then I'm having this reaction based on the story.

And then I'm I'm superimposing that reaction on a person that has no idea what's going on.

Yeah. That's when the letting go happened. Once I saw that that's what I was doing, just it just dropped and I was like, it felt like the entire the weight of the universe was like lifted off of my

shoulders. Like that's how much I imposed that that heaviness on myself. Once that lifted, like the spiritual stuff or what would we refer to as spirituality or the journey itself, just blew right open and took right off.

And the the ego was held up or I held my ego um I propped it up on the justification of anger and resentment. Like it fed off of that. It felt powerful from it because it was justified to be right in the way

that it's feeling and then it's reinforcing that feeling with with this anger and then just directing it at any and everything.

And Yeah. it's just that was the ruling the ruling thing in my life. So, when the structure of that was seen through, it was like, well, well if if that's the thing that I'm taking to have all of this meaning,

which is like my own imagination and my own creation, what else is really out there?

Ooh. And that's when the curiosity of all of this kind of came rushing in and all the you know, the practices of um of AA is all to see through the the concept of self.

You know, it's their steps and they're all steps to break the idea that we have that we create the sense of self with. At least that's the way it worked for me.

But it started to go deeper for me cuz once I started to see through the concepts of myself, I was like, well they talk about this thing called defects of character and I was like, well why do I want to fix this character?

If if they're defects and it's of a character and this character is something that's made up, why not go to the root of it?

And you know, that's that's an intuition that came to go to the root of identity itself.

Mhm. So Yeah, it's funny cuz really people use that word character as if it means like uh ethicalness or you know, like the it's you either have good character or bad character.

And thinking of it as a character instead of my character is a big shift in the way it's perceived, right?

Yeah. So going back to that um anger you were talking about and the example with your father-in-law.

I think that's something that a lot of us struggle with or have struggled with.

What would you say to somebody who heard what you said and said oh, yeah, that's me.

But I still feel it. Well the first thing for me was to accept that I felt anger.

That's one. The second thing was the reason Well the reason why I feel angry is because I like it.

Because there's a sense of of power and entitlement that's there. And it's to accept that you like feeling angry.

You For me, I can see through something if I was putting it at a distance from me and saying that it isn't me.

You know what I mean? Like how am I going to to try and address something that I won't even acknowledge that's me?

And the anger was me. But that was it. So in part, it was like not accepting that aspect of myself but wanting to fix it by denying that it isn't a thing.

It doesn't really work. So when it clicked in my mind that well, I get angry because I like being angry.

Well, why do I like being angry? Because it creates a false sense of power and justification.

All right. Well how do I begin to address this now? Well, I can sit and think about all the times I was angry and try to rectify there.

Seems like a a logical thing to do. But for me, it was in the times I was becoming angry.

So I was at Home Depot and something I was trying to return was a a tool or something and they just wouldn't have it. So I felt like it was unjustified and I felt the anger started to come up like I wanted to lash out at

And as it was coming up, that was the time to acknowledge, pause, take a step back and actively see my anger.

It wasn't after I was done yelling at the lady, then going my truck and be like, I shouldn't have done that. It isn't For me, it wasn't it's not done there. It's done in the moment. So it requires

for me, it required a a good bit of uh effort to recognize it. So understanding how the resentments was formed that's one thing. Well, great. What do you do with that information? Does it application to it?

And for me, I had to apply it in my daily life. So it was in in all the things that And there's a lot. There's a lot of stuff that would set me off and it was but they were all opportunities for me

to use that tool. To the point where it comes, it's accepted. If something is done out of a haste, it's immediately corrected. But the way it was I would say 10 years ago versus now, I would say there's a

99% reduction in that reactiveness with anger because it was it's something that comes and it just whisks you away. It's like all your conscious awareness and attention just goes right out the window. It just blinds you. And for me,

it was all it always felt like a like a wave. So And and I I love what you said about the the difference between being with it right then in that moment versus going back to your truck and that cuz I think

we're all also familiar with the moment of beating ourselves up for what we felt and then said and then did.

And it's really different thing to be with it in that moment rather than to just think, oh, I you know, damn, I did it again. Oh.

Um which doesn't ever feel like it's moving toward changing it. It's almost like that cycle. It's like of self it's like a cycle of self-abuse.

Mhm. I'm going to do this thing that that like in a sense abuses me and then apologize to myself for it later.

Yeah. Now we when we start at least for me, when when this started to work out, it was well, I don't have an excuse for this anymore. It I can't claim, well, I don't know or I don't have the the means

to see or um it happened and there is no way or there's no self-correcting measure that's in place.

So there is no more ignoring it. So it's either something is done about it or there there isn't anything that's done.

There is no progress to be made. And I know when we talk about spiritual journeys and all of that stuff but you know, on a pathless path and no progress can be made. You're it and all of that stuff. Great. Then why do we do

all the things that we do and we we beat ourselves up over it because we really don't understand ourselves. We don't understand what's really happening. We're not seeing things clearly for exactly what it is.

It's not to say you become this emotionless, you know, blob that just moves through life. If anything, you become fully engaged because there's a level of understanding when you see it in others that if everyone everyone has the same the same

capacities, the the same ability to feel pain, fear, anger. And I had the ability and I was fortunate that all the circumstances led to me to be able to see that within myself then I can have compassion when I recognize it

in others because I know what it is. I know what it takes to go through it.

And not necessarily overcome it but how much it required for me to to see that all those things needed to be accepted.

So when I see the struggles in others against it, it's like Okay. There isn't a whole lot of judging that goes on.

When you when you talk about compassion, um one thing I I I noticed in my own journey and I've seen it in others, too, is that uh that self-compassion seems to be really difficult, especially in those moments when we're used to judging ourselves.

Um do you have anything that's How is that shown up in your life? Um initially when I was looking at um meditation.

Like when we we first started to get into it, it required this you do like meta meditation, which is love and kindness. So you put love and kindness out into the world. Well, well, how do you do that if you don't

put it through yourself first. So it's love and kindness towards yourself and then out into the world.

When I was now going through the AA process and doing all my step work, it required that. And it was a difficult thing to do because it was like, well, I've never done that before. What what does that even look like to even

to even love myself? You know, and then you know, there's stages to this stuff. So it was it was a bit of a challenge and it to me, it was just like it was one of those things where

I had just had to do it. And then when I started to do it, the my entire perception, felt experience about love and kindness shifted.

And it it started to change my perception. When it changed my perception, it literally changes the way that I saw the world itself.

And I was like Yeah. That's how powerful it is. And it's a turn within ourselves to love ourselves even when we don't want to. And it automatically turns around and it just flows out from us.

That's beautiful. Yeah, that's really good. That's really good way of putting it. How So now you're you're you're starting to find compassion for yourself, you're finding compassion for others.

What was this process of letting go of identity like for you? Was it like a a flash and it was gone and or was there Can you talk a little bit about that?

Well, letting go of identity came in me a couple of different forms. It's Everything starts for me in day-to-day life. That's That's where That's Because for me, that's where it makes the most sense or at least it has

to make the most sense. It's not like uh you know, I'm going to sit and think about it and then metaphysically it it all appears. That's not That's not how It required work for me.

So, when this idea came up about um deconstructing self it was when we were doing the character work, character defect stuff. And there were the things that became apparent or clear was all these different identity structures that I had. So,

as I was doing step work, it was about the drunk. It was about the guy that that was drinking and caused all of this havoc and he's seeking all of this uh this help and then he's got to do all of

these amends. And all of those things did occur. But something that that kind of dawned on me was well, that's one aspect of me.

What other aspects are there? So, when the the next thing that came, it was when I was hanging out with my friends, they always they would call me Loax.

And as as that was said, it was like well, that's how I am with my friends. Like I just I acted completely different.

You know, I was loud and you know, obnoxious and out drinking and hanging out and doing all of that stuff.

And then it was like, well, what is it when you're a a son? So, the way I was acting with my friends and all of those ideas that I had about you know, this personality that was out there

um was completely different when I am with my mom. Then it was like, well, what is it to be a husband?

And then a dad. And the minute I saw that, it just started rolling with everything.

Well, a friend. Well, what does it mean to be me? And things just got silent for a second.

I had all these ideas about all of these different roles that I played cuz they all had governing principles, ways that that I act and I behave.

Well, none of those are me. Because I just started seeing them as just, you know, aspects, they're just identities.

Personalities. And that's when I was left well, there was no answer. I didn't know what that was.

And that's when things really I would say really took off because I couldn't accept a concept or the a thought to give me an explanation of what I thought myself to be.

So, within my mind, I made it was like I Okay, I'm not accepting a thought because that's just another personality that'll be created.

So, what is it that I could take that I find myself in? I couldn't find it in anything external outside of concepts.

So, I started to go back in my memory. Um and I was laying I was laying on my bed, you know, and at this time I I think I was I was home maybe for a week or so

or maybe I just came out from the recovery house and I was staying back at a house in Philadelphia.

And you know, at this time I read some stuff with uh Ramana Maharshi, Eckhart Tolle, uh Nisargadatta Alan Watts, you know, the um then some of the the Buddhist teachings, Theravada and all of that stuff.

When I lay there in the bed, I was like, I don't know what any of these people are talking about.

I said You know, I was like, they I just don't know. I don't know what they're saying. I don't know what they're experiencing and what they're describing is what they went through.

It's not you know, it's not my experience. I don't know what it is. So, I was like, all right, if I'm going to look at this, what is it that I have? So, I have my faculties, my sense perceptions and this

idea that I have of me. Well, all right, I'm not going to accept that idea. Like I said, laying in the bed, I was like, all right.

What what's what's it all about? I just started going back in my memories. I was like, all right, this is me now. Another came up. I was like, 24.

That's when I first came to Philadelphia. Another memory came up. I was like, 14 years old when I started high school.

Another one came up. I was nine when I came into this country. And one came up when I was like four or five when I was back on the island.

I was getting beat to spell the word truth. I was like, me. The memory wasn't like super important.

But the time frame was. I was like, well, I'm four or five. What was there before that?

And this image of this the younger version of me at four years old at that time came up.

Like in front of my face. Just like this. And it was you know, it was my four-year-old face.

And the face just turned away from me. And the back was just hollow, empty. It was the entire It was like the entirety of experience, the entire cosmos.

And in an instant, it it felt like a rubber band is being pulled pulled pulled pulled pulled pulled pulled and stretched. I'm like, what's that? What was there before this?

Before this I was like, they pulled as as far as it could go. It was like my mind pushing against the wall.

And then something cut the rubber band. And the entire thing unraveled. Everything. I mean, the entire physical manifestation um the put-togetherness of experience just And then it started to coalesce. And as it was coalescing, it was showing exactly how

this entire thing was formed. The identity itself. There's something that just cannot be spoken about.

Then there's a sense then a sense of then a sense of me. And the entire manifestation.

Wow. That's a great story. Um What So, there was sort of from from your story, it's like there was sort of a It almost sounds like a relaxed desperation.

Uh and a deep curiosity that brought you to that moment. How would you describe it?

What was going on for you that got that that got you there? I wanted to know but I didn't know what I wanted to know.

I wanted to find out but I didn't know what I was looking for. I didn't know what I wanted to find.

Um even though I heard a little bit about what this is supposed to be and it's supposed to look like, I had to I rejected all of that because those were other people's experiences. And that's what they're talking about.

They're only speaking about what this was what it was like for them. And within myself, I just knew that well, if I go chasing that, I'm chasing their experience.

I'm not looking at what's what's really here. And it was really just kind of going into this completely completely blinded.

And the thing that pushed against the unknown is the known. And the known was everything that I collected to be myself.

And when my mind pushed up against something that's prior to it, it had no choice but to to give up.

And when it did, then you know, it's interesting because this is where all of the words will fail because this is dualistic way that our language is.

Like Okay, there was a me there that went and unraveled all of this. And it isn't that.

It's just the the error of perception that we carry with ourselves, we impose the entire manifestation as being a certain way.

Yeah. And it's not until we're ready to at least give up the entire unknown. I'm sorry, to give up the entire known then the unknown becomes available.

And the coming back to all of this cuz that that was a pretty um I mean, that was interesting what happened after that. And it shifted everything. Everything changed.

Um and then it comes around full circle and it shows that nothing changed because this is the unknown. It wasn't anywhere else.

It was that dramatic because it was the first time it was experienced and outside of that there was no conception of anything that was that was known because we we find comfort in the known. We we explain things to ourselves because we feel

comfortable in knowing the explanation. But we don't know the thing. And in order to know the thing, we have to give up the explanation and really just relax the explanation, see what's really there.

Yeah. And um language can definitely fail us when we're trying to explain this aspect of it. That's why it's always said it's a it's an experiential thing.

The Buddha always talks about the wise for themselves each will experience this for themselves.

You know, it's not to be believed and create conceptually this idea of something else to go and look for, but really go and find it, see it, experience it.

And then it makes sense. Well, and of course that's the whole hero's journey, right? You're going into what's actually happening. And and instead of just telling the story in our mind of what's happening.

Um And and this is, you know, that whole you're you're not your story thing that um a lot of people sort of say as a way of like giving people a sense of a a way out of that

mind-identified sense of self. But in another sense, going deeply into the actuality, the real unfolding of the story is its own pathless path because you can only ever see the step right in front of you. You don't get to know where it's all going.

Yeah, it was one one second. I just want to something um seemed like it's happening with your camera. I think you like maybe this trip into the the unmanifest has uh set you the and um and my fridge

actually started running, too. I'm just going to unplug that real quick. When your studio is also your kitchen.

This this uh Insta360 camera it has this um feature where it reads it reads your hand movements and your hand movements activate different features. So, whenever I threw my hands up it activated the auto tracking feature.

Yeah, right right right. Okay, yeah. Cuz for a while there while you were talking it was like down this way and I was like, "Hello." The message is received.

This universe is like, He's affecting time and space. Oh my god. You know, at first I thought, "Well, maybe I'll just cut this part out." But no, I'm definitely leaving this.

Um So, now everything's blown apart. What you've you've gone to rehab. What Talk a little bit about what the unfolding of this new life was like, is like.

Well, Listen, the thing that happened immediately um after like after this all coalesced back it was this entire thing isn't it isn't it's completely fabricated.

This entire experience is it isn't real. And well, how do you for me it was like, well I how do you rectify what's been going on here?

So, it's like all right, there's there's some things definitely that needed to like the insides all the insides needed to be matured. And the the projection outwards of a experienced life as this person that's here interacting with all of this stuff

that's the thing that isn't. Um and what I experienced in that experience was um the entire mind just pausing for a second.

And once it paused experience was experiencing experience. It's the it's the simplest way I can put it.

Um and then it still coalesced back into this uh guy that's here that's kind of seemed like it's doing stuff. But there was still more stuff to to kind of learn, but the the thing that dropped away was

this need to get and gain things in life. This anything that would prop up an identity structure or ego structure fell away.

So, the the need that I felt for success and money went. Um I had something like 1,500, 1,600 friends on Facebook and that was a ego proper thing. Oh, the more friends I have you know, I didn't know any of these

people. They didn't know anything about me. You know what I mean? So, all of that just got got deleted. Um You know, it was like the things that we prop up self and identity and ego would just started to fall away naturally.

Drinking and hanging out with friends and you know, all of those things just just dropped. And the things that really revealed themselves were the things that I genuinely um the core things that identity was propped up with, which was

uh family and my kids. So, those were the things that I started to to focus on and um put time and energy into.

Just because I saw through this stuff um doesn't mean that you know, they did.

And I can say, well, I'll I'll just leave all none of this makes and none of this matters anymore and I could just be out there, but that would kind of create more harm towards the the ones that depend on me,

like my family. So, I went on to do the same things I was doing with work just a lot lighter.

You know, there wasn't there wasn't this hold on to any of this stuff. Uh the next thing that was that was a pretty big shift was this idea of time.

Of uh past and future. Nothing ever gets created from a past that's going to give you future. There's only now. There's only what's occurring right here.

A past can only be created from this moment and a future can only be projected from this moment.

So, it was like all these stories that I used to tell about myself about all these things that happened they, you know, 99% of them just lost meaning and fell away. And all of the future projections though just they just

don't happen anymore. Yeah, you can make plans about what you may want to do, but there's all, you know, you're not holding on to the outcome of those plans. If they happen, they happen. If they don't, they don't. It is what it is.

Yeah. Kind of deal. It's not that I don't care, it's I don't care to hold on to it. I don't care for it to to really be a thing. Yes, there is importance to some things, but um This is a This is a good point. There's

it's kind of like the the difference between um going, "Well, nothing's real. I'm not real. You're not real. So, you know, whatever." versus the the How do you put it? The the knowing the felt sense almost of what that the insight of

it. Uh that there is a How would you put it? The the the difference between that what there is nothing and no one and nowhere and um versus what the actual experience is. For somebody who's kind of hears this and

goes I I don't get that. Like I okay, I could maybe just say and we you do. You see people just say it, you know, like, "Oh, I read it in a book somewhere. So, I'm going to say that now and then that's

that." It's it's like it's like throwing out the baby with the bathwater because there's a there's a lack of maturing of the insights because it the this entire thing is is the delusion of the individual themselves. So, the individual dials

back and dives into their own delusion and tries to see it as as what it is.

Um and that's where the understanding comes to Uh and it isn't something to to throw and cast back out and then everyone else. Okay, the mind expands into the expansive awareness of your self experience right now. So everything that

one can experience would be a projection of let's say their own mind. Great. So the individuals that you come in contact with you're creating this idea of them. They're never the actual person.

But it's not saying the other person doesn't exist. It's your idea of them. It's your idea that you're creating of them. And that's how we kind of go about in this world and we all share in that and interact with it and we all

intertwine and interconnect to the point that we don't recognize that anymore. That's that's really no way of putting it.

We get a chance to see it. Um and if the the insights aren't matured, then there's this uh there's a judgment that occurs that you're seeing incorrectly or you don't matter.

It isn't that. It's always directed back at the one that's casting out. Um so we we remain in a position of always open and seen without really judging.

Because any judgment we're going to make would be a judgment against our own projection outwards. So it's a judgment that we're making towards ourselves.

Is there anything uh that that you feel helped in maturing insight? Um listen, not take a position on any of the the experiences that occurred because they were experiences.

You know, if I was going to take a position say on the experience of no mind or when mind blown apart, then I would be seeking that experience and looking to replicate it.

But the reality of what what's happening I'm looking to replicate an idea of something that already happened. So I'm looking to replicate an idea.

So the mind is good at generating things that that it knows. But when it gets blown apart, it's like, well stay in that open position.

And that's that's a little bit more difficult to do because we want to run to comfortability, which is an explanation of what those those experiences were like.

So it's it's a difficult thing to just shut up. Well, and you you've also I know in my own case you've got this seeker who now uh uh has this moment of like, oh wow, something definitely changed. Mhm. And

in that moment there's this this insight and there can be bliss and all kinds of experiences.

Um but then afterward there's there still is like life. You're still the actual person who was the seeker.

Yet something has changed, but the mind isn't like gone. It's it kind of wants to come back and do its thing and be like, oh wait, we got something. We got we we we found the thing we were looking

for. Mhm. You know? Um and that I think that that can be you know, it can things get things can kind of start to feel worse before they feel better uh for lack of a better way of putting it.

Yeah. For me it was always the thing that dawned always was never to accept um any experience because didn't matter how how great and grand it was or how mundane it is. Um they're all from for me the way I saw them was just

they're all delusions. So to just chill out, relax, and relax into this. Um it's always available and always accessible. And any step towards chasing and seeking an experience is a movement into into like a former delusion. It's a

movement into this mind thing that will generate all these experiences and it's been the my experience speaking from that, you know, that it it can generate all kinds of stuff. All types of dimensions. You can, you know, sit in meditations and

all kinds of stuff can can occur. Um but those things when they happen it's not to discourage anybody from going through that. They do open the mind the stagnant thing of, you know, I'm this person that experiencing this

life as I'm going to work and doing this and this this you know, monotonous kind of thing. It it blows those ideas apart when the mind becomes expansive and it's not limited by just this one subjective type of reality that

I've known for you know, 30 something years, but it has a capacity to do so much more. Well, what do you do with that? Do you go and you you explore infinitely? You can.

For me it was enough. You know, it was like I don't need all of that.

That's that's like um you know, there's a stepping back and a relaxing into this where there is no wanting to really know anything but everything is perfectly perfect on unfolding in its infinite perfection.

Um and the the relaxing into it is the relaxing of the sense of division and separation.

And that's when you know, this is like an effortless thing. So it wasn't like effort required to go into it. It's actually a relaxing of all of these processes that we've had this identity the ego. So the anatman no self isn't

you know, there isn't a self. It's what what is when we start to crack open this concept that we have of self.

What happens when when that relaxes, what remains is what we discover and that's what there isn't much that can be said about it.

Yeah. And it's it's different for everyone. It could be the same. I don't know, but um everybody have their own set of circumstances and collection of ideas and thoughts and experiences that lead them to this space. So generally it uses

that to show you through yourself. So it's unique in that way. And not the quote the Buddha or or any, you know, any of that stuff. Not that I know what he says, but you know, for every every sentient being that it's that's

here on this planet, um the path is unique to each one of them. So it's wise for each one of them to see for themselves or not. Mhm.

You know, what one of the things I've learned from you over our friendship is to be where you are.

You know, what what what's this? What's what's this right now? Um and not and not be afraid to go into that. So if in this moment there's the perception or the experience of something to just to to look at that. What is

this? What is this? You know, does it feel like demons? Just having an awakening isn't going to mean that all of a sudden you might not still be in an abusive situation in your life and that there there may be

situational things that need to change uh and that you are going to have to you know, make a decision about in life.

And but that isn't different. But this this that that's where the difference I think between in my own life anyway between the sense of knowing versus like looking to a doctrine or a dogma or knowledge, insight maybe versus

knowledge is that it's so well, it doesn't matter if you know, I'm being abused because there is no me and there is no them.

You could really like you know, that that that can go to a very dark weird place. Mhm. Versus going, okay, experience right now seems to be this. Yeah. What is this?

And bringing that curiosity to What So in your as your own awakening has unfolded um what what does like spirituality and absolute versus relative and all that stuff kind of mean to you now?

It's it's one in the same. The the unknown is right in front of our face. It's what thoughts, ideas, and concepts have always been been explaining.

But we took the explanation to mean the thing that's being explained instead of putting away the explanation see and experience. So that's that's the the entire the entire process. Well, it's it isn't spiritual anymore and that's when we can say that

it becomes spiritual. Mountains become mountains, rivers become rivers. Um you know, it's we we just start to see life as life is instead of life as we interpret it.

So this this heaviness of living kind of it just kind of relaxes. It doesn't mean that heavy things don't happen you know through this the the spirituality process or awakening process or whatever you want to call it. You know, my nephew passed

and you know, he's 7 years old. He died from cancer in 11 days stage one to stage four and 11 days he passed.

So there's what how do you deal with that? You know what I mean? So it's It was sitting and feeling it.

fully for for what it is and experiencing exactly what was happening. Whatever the emotions were that came they came.

But nothing was really held on to. You know, so I dealt with my my grandfather passing away and and all of that stuff. So life still happens and things still you know, continue on but what I sit and wallow and and you know,

sad for many many many many months and years. You know, things happen they occur they shift it's not the mind doesn't hold on to those things anymore.

If you could go back to your younger self at your lowest point and whisper one thing is there one thing you would whisper to that self?

I wouldn't say anything. You wouldn't say anything. Mhm. Because this was the the outcome and the combination of all of those experiences up until the point that I realized that this is all that there is.

This now this present. So it wasn't that those culminated into it but if I said anything at that point to me it could shift the possibility that this would have been the outcome.

Do I know that? I don't know but I wouldn't change a single thing. Yeah.

Yeah. Um for somebody else maybe who's in a dark place right now and and watching this.

Um what would you what would you say is the the simplest thing to do um to uh to start moving if somebody feels stuck.

This is to be okay with that. You know, it's okay to be stuck. Um it's also okay to to relax. It's okay to step away from it for for a little bit.

Then I there are things that are causing any kind of pain and harm. It's okay to It's okay to move away from it.

Uh when it comes to the spiritual path or looking searching and seeking it's it's in the times that we say all right, I'm going to put this down for a little bit.

That the the most gains are are ever seen is our willingness to just kind of set it all aside. Because when we set it all aside and we turn around it's a light that we see.

And all the practices only ever show you like it only ever shows you this.

It only ever shows you what's occurring. Stop and smell the roses. Go outside for a while. Look around.

Immerse yourself in experience. You know, when we're facing heaviness in life as well it's okay to it's okay to talk to other people.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh Angela and I were talking about this the other day about how often this can seem like such a solitary pursuit. You know, I'm trying to find out who I am. Mhm. And that that we forget that everyone

goes through this in one way or another and that we we are humans and we're social animals and part of who we are is that shared experience and community and being able to um yeah, to be there for each other and

have people be there for us. Yeah. The work the work has to be done by the individual.

But you don't need to walk the path alone. There's a lot of people that can offer guidance because they've they've gone through it. But they can point you're the one that looks and sees.

So you know, it's it's interesting and and I think why it worked so well was I used to think that that I was alone like I was the only one that was facing this.

I was the only one that why am I this way? And when when things like really changed in AA was when my sponsor was like sharing his story and the things he were talking about things that he did were the same exact

things that that I did. I was like [ __ ] he's just like me.

And just that that commonality and the shared experience of that suffering and addiction that'll that'll lay the groundwork for me to actually do the step work and walk the steps.

May he guided me but he couldn't make me do my step work. He couldn't make me walk the steps. That's something that I needed to do. But he also did it from a distance too. If he saw me waver and and fall he'll you know

show a good word. But sometimes it takes somebody who have gone through it to say well they can look and see and they're like all right, I'll I'll let him kind of falter. He'll he'll stumble and he'll find his way or you know, they

know when you have enough and they come and they help you up. And I was fortunate for for him.

Um that's beautiful. Yeah. Well thank you man. That that was uh that was great. I I learned a lot today and we've had conversations like this before. Um this this was really really something. I want to thank you for for just sharing

your experience for sharing everything you've been through. I know there are a lot of other people that will get something out of this.

If people want to get in touch with you or find out more about you what where's a good place for them to do that?

Um most anyone can jump on the website. It's uh sensewithoutmind.com and then the YouTube channel sense without mind.

Uh I usually I vigorously respond to all the millions of people who follow me and comment on my videos. I don't but I do try to respond to people right away and on the website it has my email and

stuff. So if anyone want to reach out they can. And yeah, that's that's pretty much it.

I'm pretty straightforward. I do I I do let people know that um I still work. I'm electrician. So this isn't like I'm not in the the glamorous uh the glamorous world of spirituality and Even though you have a guru beard you

have not taken up the guru vocation. No, this this is this is to keep me warm in the winters over here.

I hear you man. I hear you. Yeah, I don't my daughter is like hey you're going to shave your I was like no, it's still cold. It's too cold to shave.

Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, sensewithoutmind.com and the YouTube channel. I'm trying now to get back into posting and stuff. So I try to do at least a video a week. So Okay, cool cool. I will put links down below.

And if you're watching this video and it resonated with you feel free to drop drop a comment subscribe. Let me know what stood out to you the most. Um and if you know somebody who could benefit from this feel free to share it

with them. As for us thank you so much man. This was just this was just so great. I look forward to to speaking with you again and uh yeah. Yeah, thanks for being such a good friend.