Ben & Jerry’s CEO Matthew McCarthy:Why Being at Peace W… — Transcript

[Music] Hi friends, welcome back to With Great People, the podcast for high performance teams. I'm Richard Kasparovski. Our special guest today is Matthew McCarthy. Now, this is a really special episode for me because Matthew is an old friend, a very dear friend, a friend from high school days. He's currently the CEO of Ben & Jerry's, and you know, here's how I know him best. So I know Matthew best as the former lead singer of a relatively obscure and definitely very underrated rock band from the late 1980s. To support this podcast, visit my website kasparovski.com. Matthew, hello. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for having me. It's a super huge treat to see you again. Thanks, man. Together, it really is. It's definitely a treat for me. I just did the non-standard Matthew McCarthy interview. They sent me the official, the non-standard Matthew McCarthy introduction. They sent me the standard introduction that I was supposed to read. I didn't do it. Good thing I don't work for Ben & Jerry's. They would fire me. Is there anything you want to add on to that intro? Probably not much. I think I'm going to scrap what I have and like re-adopt yours, even if I'm doing some big high conference. I think I may say, read this. Is this really? Yeah, I read that. That's way cooler. I know I've got much. I, um, no, I work for Ben & Jerry's. I've been with Ben & Jerry's for about two and a half years, and I've been with the parent company Unilever for about 23 or so years, and, um, yeah. Yeah, that's, uh, okay. And I gotta say this, this isn't in, you know, people know I have this script that I read off of. I just held it up to the camera for people who are listening to the audio-only podcast. When you first started working for Unilever, I was like, big company, boring, I'm not interested in that at all. But Ben & Jerry's, that's cool. Did, was this like, I don't know, you know, I've been following you over the years. You've definitely been having fun in big corp land. How did you end up at Ben & Jerry's? I actually am not fully sure of that. You know, you know, I mean, I mean that, uh, honestly is, I actually started my career working with my dad in the family business. He worked in business, and then he didn't want to do it anymore, and he bought a small, very small printing firm in Massachusetts. And so I was a team at that time, and so my summers and like then into college breaks and stuff like that, I worked with him, and that's like, that's actually where I finally had a little bit of structure, uh, because as an undergraduate at UMass Amherst, I really didn't know what I wanted to do. You know, I studied political science and French and Western European studies and a bunch of other stuff, so I was a little somewhat directionless. And I remember having a lot of envy for folks that seemed to have their acts together, they knew what they wanted to do, and all of a sudden I was like, all right, whatever. And when I worked with my dad, it provided a little bit of structure, and in a small business you do everything. You're the bottle washer, you know, you get the mail, and you're, you know, delivering orders and whatnot, and the customer side, uh, I really, really liked. So that's probably my first taste of kind of marketing. I'd always had summer jobs when I was a kid, paper route, actually scooping ice cream was one of my jobs when I was a teenager, believe it or not, and I actually, the customer interaction was something I thrived on. And that just over time led me more in the marketing direction. And so to then fast forward without working with all the details to be to go off, get a master's degree and work in brand, you know, brand management, to me that was a special and a big leap for me. So to go to a company like Unilever, actually at the time it was Best Foods, it was Best Foods, and then Best Foods got acquired by Unilever about 20, actually about 22, 23 years ago. And, uh, so, uh, yeah, there's a lot of stuff about business that can be a little boring, uh, can be fluffy, and I remember early on I never really felt that I fit in because I didn't go to Ivy League schools. I, uh, and a lot of people management, brain management had. And so you'd sit around the lunch table like, oh, where'd you go to school and where are you? And I'm like, wow. And interestingly, and kind of oddly, is that the more I, as my career progressed, the more I relaxed and tried to bring more of myself to the work, which includes fun and laughing. I knew, you know, you and I have always been, you know, jokesters. The better the work got. And so the older I got, the more I looked back and said, gosh, maybe people told me that, but I didn't listen, uh, that the idea that, you know, work doesn't need to be, uh, stuffy and difficult. There are, you know, as all with all organizations, whether they're business or not, they've got their difficult sides or stuffy sides, and that's humans working together also create that in kind of group settings and team dynamics and whatnot. But, uh, the more fun I have, the better my business results have become. Cool, cool. And I love that. And you just said something about team settings and groups. This is the podcast about teams. So what is the best team you've ever been part of in your life? Before we, before we did the, uh, the intro, welcome to the podcast, we were talking about different things, musical groups and stuff like this. When I say team, what I mean is any group of two or more people who have a shared call, right? So that could be, you know, in my case sometimes it's me and my wife, or it's you, you and your work team, or you in a music group, or even any group of two or more people aligned with a common goal. What's your best team that you've been a member of? Oh man, that is a very difficult question. And as you were talking there, you gave me a couple of seconds head start to get the gears clunking around my head. I'll steer clear of my wife references because I could come back to that and talk to that a lot, and I don't want to talk about that as a way to say, well, if you don't talk about your wife, you know, but, uh, let's just call that a given because I'm a very lucky guy, uh, to my wife. You know, my knee-jerk reaction was to talk about businessy stuff, but when I, the way you just explained it shifted it to me to more play music with other people. Um, there's not one in particular. It's there's almost a zone that you get in, uh, when you're playing with people you like, people you trust, and you're actually just jamming away. Um, it's hard to just, it's hard to describe people who don't play music. Maybe they do something else in their life where they kind of get into a shared zone that's a bit beyond the normal language because you're playing music together. And I'm not a great musician, uh, and the people I play with, many of them are more talented than I am. That's not the point. Um, I'm a big fan of an adage to the friend Tony once, well, just make it your own, you know? So sometimes if you try to play a song and I want to sound just like whoever wrote it, and once it's in play, just make it your own, Matthew. And so when you can play, for me, when I can play music with other people that I trust and I feel that I can just be myself, not only do I enjoy it, but in a weird cosmic way, I think we then send out a signal to the other people that yes, it's an invitation for you to be more like yourself. So from the Greek man session is one where there's the unspoken kind of mojo of trust isn't a thing. It's more of a continuum. Trust isn't a thing. It's almost like a field, like a magnetic field of trust, and each of the players is contributing to it. Um, and there's a special moment. It doesn't even sometimes we record it and you listen to it, it sounds pretty crappy in hindsight. That didn't matter at all because the memory of kind of being in the moment with other people and the, I suppose the, uh, the other adage you and I were chatting about was the notion of taking the solo, and I used this analogy a lot in my business work, my teamwork with my gang.

friend from high school days he's currently the ceo of ben jerry's and you know here's how i know him best so i know matthew best as the former lead singer of a relatively obscure and definitely very underrated rock band from the late

1980s to support this podcast visit my website kasparovsky.com matthew hello thank you so much for being here today thank you for having me it's a super huge treat to see you again thanks man together it really is it's

definitely a treat for me i just did the non-standard matthew mccarthy interview they sent me the official uh the non-standard matthew mccarthy introduction they sent me the standard introduction that i was supposed to read i didn't do it good thing i don't work

for ben and jerry's they would fire me is there anything you want to add on to that intro probably not much i think i think i'm going to scrap what i have and like re-adopt yours even if i'm

doing some big high conference i think i may say read this is this really yeah i read that uh that's way cooler i know i've got much i um no i work for ben and jerry's i've been with

ben jerry's for about two and a half years and i've been with the parent company unilever for about 23 or so years and um yeah yeah that's uh okay and i gotta say this this isn't in you know people know i have this script

that i that i read off of um i just held it up to the camera for people who are listening to the audio only podcast when you first started working for unilever i was like big company boring i'm not interested in

that at all but ben and jerry's that's cool did was this like i don't know you know i've been following you over the years you've definitely been been having fun in in big corp land is how did you end up at ben jerry's

uh i actually am not fully sure of that uh you know you know i mean i mean that uh honestly is i actually started my career working with my dad in the family business he worked in business and then he didn't want to do

it anymore and he bought a small very small printing firm in massachusetts and so i was a team at that time and so my summers and like then into college breaks and stuff like that i work with him and that's like that's actually

where i finally had a little bit of structure uh because as an undergraduate at umass amherst i i really didn't know what i wanted to do you know i studied political science and french and western european studies and

a bunch of other stuff so i was a little somewhat directionless and i remember having a lot of envy for folks that seemed to have their acts together they knew what they wanted to do and all of a sudden i was like all

right whatever and when i work with my dad it provided a little bit of structure and in a small business you do everything you you're the bottle washer you know you get the mail and you're you know delivering orders and whatnot

and the the customer side uh i really really liked uh so that's probably my first taste of kind of marketing i'd always had summer jobs when i was a kid paper route actually scooping ice cream was one of

my jobs when i was a teenager believe it or not and i i actually the customer interaction was something i um thrived on and that just over time led me more in the marketing direction and so to then

fast forward without working with all the details to to uh be to go off get a master's degree and work in brand you know brand management to me that was a a special and a big leap for for me so to go to a company like

unilever actually the at the time it was best foods it was best best foods and then best foods got acquired by by unilever about 20 actually about 20 22 23 years ago and uh so uh yeah there's a lot of stuff

about business that can be a little boring uh can be fluffy and i remember early on i never really felt that i fit in because i didn't go to ivy league schools i uh and a lot of people management brain

management had and so you'd sit around the launch table like oh where'd you go to school and where are you and i'm like wow and interestingly i and kind of oddly is that the more i as my career progressed the more

um i relaxed and tried to bring more of myself to the work which includes fun and laughing i knew you know you and i have always been you know jokesters the better the work got and so the older i got the more i looked

back and said gosh i maybe people told me that but i didn't listen uh that the idea that you know work doesn't need to be uh stuffy and difficult there are you know as all with all organizations whether they're business or not they've

got their difficult sides or stuffy sides and that's humans working together also create that in in kind of in in group settings and team dynamics and whatnot but uh the more fun i have the better my business results have become

cool cool and i love that and you just said something about team settings and groups this is the podcast about teams uh so what is the best team you've ever been part of in your life before we before we did the

uh the intro welcome to the podcast we were talking about different things musical groups and stuff like this when i say team what i mean is any group of two or more people who have a shared call right so that could be you know in my

case sometimes it's me and my wife or it's you you and your a work team or you in a music group or even any group of two or more people aligned with a common goal what's your best team that you've been a member of

oh man that is a very difficult question and and as you were talking there you gave me a couple of seconds head start to get the gears clunking around my head i'll steer clear of my wife references because i could come

back to that and talk to that a lot and i i don't want to talk about that as a way to say well if you don't talk about your wife you know but uh let's just call that a given

because i'm a very lucky guy uh to to my wife you know my knee-jerk reaction was to talk about businessy stuff but when i the way you just explained it shifted it to me to more play music with

other people um there's not one in particular it's there's almost a zone that you get in uh when you're playing with people you like people you trust and you're actually just jamming away um it's hard to just it's hard to

describe people who don't play music maybe they do something else in their life where they kind of get into a shared zone that's a bit beyond the normal language because you're playing music together and and i'm not a great musician uh and

the people i play with many of them are are more talented than i am that's not the point um i'm a big fan of an adage to the friend tony once well just make it your own you know so

sometimes if you try to play a song and i want to sound just like whoever wrote it and once it's in play just make it your own matthew and so when you can play for me when i can play music with other people that i

trust and i feel that i can just be myself not only do i enjoy it war but in a weird cosmic way i think we then send out a signal to the other people that yes it's an invitation for you to be more

like yourself so from the greek man session is one where there's the unspoken kind of mojo of trust isn't a thing it's more of a continuum trust isn't a thing it's almost like a field like a magnetic field of trust

and each of the players is contributing to it um and there's a special moment it doesn't even sometimes we record it and you listen to it it sounds pretty crappy in hindsight that didn't matter at all because the

memory of kind of being in the moment with other people and the i suppose the uh the other adage you and i were chatting about was the notion of taking the solo and i used this analogy a lot in

my business work my teamwork with my gang is that um businesses what we do is is often like making music together some parts are difficult you have to practice you have to work on your craft before you get into the team setting you gotta

the person who doesn't practice the song you we all know you know that right away that's the one person it goes up immediately that's kind of the same amazing teams in business everybody has to kind of show up prepared

um and with an energy and a desire to to create a goal to move towards a goal and the idea of a solo is that the the statement about a soloist taking a solo is completely wrong no soloist

takes a soft the other bandmates give them the space to have one and then support them through especially when that's almost maybe going to try some things that they've never done before you actually need the rest of the band

to actually support them not back away we all know the edge when someone like does a stage dive and in the audience they either go and catch that person where someone does a stage dive and everyone moves away that's not

a trusting teamwork so long answer to your short question did you know that when i was 20 years old i i i was a big aficionado i was a that was a master stage diver except for that one day when nobody caught me

and i actually broke my hand ouch oh boy oh i met somebody at a tech conference once and this guy was like hey you look familiar were you the guy at that show the other night who was doing this yeah

yeah i moved back i made sure i didn't try to catch you all right one of these one of these if you can think of a particular one of these music groups that you've been uh that you've been with

if you could all that stuff you were just talking about if you could summarize all of that sensation of being in one of those music groups one of those best teams uh into one word is there is there a one

word that you could use to describe that [Music] the what does it feel like within you it's definitely a feeling of peace uh in the in the peace suggests relaxation it isn't usually when i'm playing with friends and then particularly to

answer you as you prompted me with a question there's a group of guys i play with and we play some very loud rock 70s type of glam rock and punkish type of stuff and so it's not a it's not a it's not a

it's not a calm piece but knowing that you're with people where you can be yourself i find it incredibly peaceful it's a high energy piece but it's definitely a kind of an equilibrium uh without unnecessary stress nice and uh and some more about that

uh these these music groups that you that you play with um how do you we've been talking about peace we've been talking about like giving space giving a solo this trust trust is a continuum that is not a

specific thing how do you know subjectively or objectively that these are great teams or maybe we can just generalize and say great great experiences with other people what is it subjectively that lets you know this is this is great

yeah um so if i come into a group uh one of the things that uh that i have found that signals to me that that this is a team that's working well together is there's a couple of hallmarks now

that you're asking one of them is they um they appear to listen to each other really they're not cutting each other off and i'm looking guilty of cutting people off incentives i've really had to work on that over my career

with other men and of course with with with women as as as we often guys do but listening and if people aren't listening it's almost like press to stop but you people aren't even listening to each other what's going on here so listening

is is one and at the same time challenging being honest because i think people i i you have to be able to be honest and that includes disagreeing with people and so if someone says no no the song goes like this it's not a dude

totally doesn't go like that without making it personal right so the minute people make stuff personal it suggests to me that that the the that that not only are people not listening but they're not actually willing to challenge each other in order

to create something better together you know sometimes really and i've been guilty of this more often when i was when i was younger but still these days like you know i want to be right i've got an idea about what we should do here well

that's that's solo playing that's that's that's playing by yourself if you want to play with other people and you want to respect them and you want them to feel valued then you can't make your idea or your your will

superior uh to others that doesn't mean you don't challenge each other you know people being nice to each other is not the hallmark of a great team right who can be nice to each other and then feel like they

actually couldn't speak the truth um there can be kind of a lack of trust there because everyone's just trying to be nice when the reality is sometimes you gotta talk about difficult things so those are probably two two things that i look for or that jump

out to me when i come in in into a team and then the other one is having fun you know if and that's maybe maybe an overused kind of way of talking about it but if people are not

i am a firm believer that we humans do our best work when we're happy it doesn't mean we can't be struggling and having difficulty but i believe to my core that we humans are do we do our best work when we're moving

towards carrots not away from sticks yeah i am totally with you on this and what about objectively like if somebody from outside the group were watching or listening or you know using their senses what would be some objective evidence

that this was a great team um progress progress what does progress look like um i've i've i've i've worked with teams and i'm sure i've been guilty of been more interested in being right and debate so i could come into objectively you see

a team and they're spending a lot of time debating it may be very intelligent debate it may be rigorous debate it may be um well thought through debate this isn't a debate club unless you're in a debate club that's not what life is

really that's not what a lot of things we do in life if the team is not moving the ball forward i actually don't really care what they're doing and you know again if it's just a book discussion group and the

the goal is to discuss or to debate that's fine but if you're in a team that's designed to do something output results and progress particularly consistent progress you know anybody can have a really great play where they get

the ball really far far down the field but the team that's able to move the ball six yards six yards six yards six yards six yards that's a winning team that's no matter what the competition tries to shift and change

the team that can constantly move the ball down the field that to me so output you know it's like i joke you don't measure how great the ice cream is by what goes into the pint you measure it by how

great it tastes when you stick your spoon in and you put it all right so you know is it some people like fine art let's talk about the ingredients or let's talk about you know let's talk about the

ingredients going into the pint you really measure what comes out of the oven that's really what the good stuff is this is so great and in my world working with a lot of tech companies it's like engineers endlessly debating the best

algorithm or the right tools to use and the right programming language but all that really matters is you can get stuff done deliver it to people and they love it right yeah yes building software is just like building

ice cream it turns out ah i do not doubt this or making music right we're making music uh what are when when you think about some of these music groups that you're part of or any any of the the best teams you've

been on what are what are three concrete behaviors that uh that that somebody could notice like three very concrete things that people do in these groups they talk about and ideally agree on what they're trying to do together

what does success look like here and even if it's a jam together the success is we just want to have a good time fine but if two of the people think success is writing a new song and getting it recorded in that session

and the other two are like man i just brought a 12 pack of beer we're sure to have a good time you're gonna have a problem right so people that i did i didn't notice the importance and actually then make it clear what are

we trying to accomplish here um i know that sounds super basic but i've seen lots of groups i've been part of groups that they're going in circles and it's not because they're bad people or they're not talented they actually don't have a

shared sense of what the what success looks like so the first thing is goal setting and sharing in that and i see so many people debate what they're trying to accomplish that's like you know says my dad would always

say you can run around on the dock all you want you know folding the sails and rolling up the the ropes and putting them in a perfect order unless you put get on the boat push away from the dock you're not sailing

right so you kind of have to have an objective of what you're trying to do or else you just kind of go around circles that's that's one object you think you ask for three sure i'll take three you're not say three did i just make

that yeah i said three i'll take what you got that's a really good one make it up as i go dude that's a really good one they had a shared the second one is they ask questions ask questions you know questions unlock

the power of the mind questions unlock the power of each other's minds um you know inquiry uh there's very great very few great things in life don't start with a question yeah all right and and so people people

and and i am super guilty of this you know when you sometimes you go to a a team building workshop or whatnot and they put you into groups and they give you a puzzle to solve and like okay we're gonna give you like five

yeah uh uh uh straws uh a piece a a a piece of cloth uh yes and good luck you know and uh and immediately uh sometimes people just try to rush to the solution uh and that that's i think it's human

nature particularly people that's good that have a high drive for success or accomplishment but asking questions not only triggers um the mind to to to wonder a bit and to say ah what what could we do here um it also

is it shows generosity questions says you actually care what other people think and and i find that that often that's kind of one of the the lesser discussed benefits is that i'm i would if i ask you a question i think i'm

showing you a bit more respect and that i actually care what you think then if i just say great let's start i have an idea let's do this and uh third one i don't know maybe conflict people seeing how people

resolve a difference so if one person says that two people want to do it this way and two people want to do it that way you can almost kind of sit back and go how are they gonna who's gonna win here

because it's kind of human nature to want to win that's kind of you want your idea to be the one that gets picked or the one that gets selected and particularly if groups are divided do they resolve it or do they

collapse do they they literally run into an impasse that they themselves have created or do they say well in order to do number one which is the shared goal what we're going to have to make a decision here those are

three behaviors the thing about asking questions i'm because we started by talking about music i'm curious about this is there is there a musical way to ask questions that doesn't involve using speech you mean when you're jamming yeah when you're actually doing the

music versus like talking about it before you do the music oh man that is a good question i don't know and i'm not going to pretend to know but the thought that jumped into my head as you were

as you were asking it was the in the divisive call and response in music right and sometimes you don't have to say hey everybody repeat after me sometimes i've seen this we want to watch a band and then the singer just

goes hey oh yeah is and so there's so did you say something and it was at that moment that the podcast was completely out there now i don't know how we do call and response in a team a team a team environment i guess maybe

through questions like oh hey what do you think what do you think but there is something to be said for you know i'm thinking about like kind of a mother duck and all their ducklings and the mother duck kind of jumps into

the water and all these things are kind of gathered around the edge of the you know that maybe a little like a ledge that goes into a water area and they're all not sure what to do but mother can can only encourage like

okay we're right come on get going and then one duck jumps in and the next thing you know they all start jumping in and i think uh sometimes you don't have to be what you would define in your head as a

natural leader or always the leader very often people are looking for someone to lead and it doesn't have to be the same person every time in fact it kind of gets boring if the same person takes that first plunge on every project

on every part of your organization in fact very often i've underestimated other people were kind of hoping that somebody would take the leap and when i was that person particularly i lacked the confidence and i was like who's going to lead first here

and i said well i'm just gonna go for it uh usually i was self-conscious i wasn't sure if i was gonna fall on my face whatever it was and then all of a sudden people jumped in behind me and like oh

i'm glad you jumped in and i didn't think about that because i think i was too absorbed in my own either self-consciousness or do i have the skills to make this jump or what if i fall in my face and so in a

weird way i was kind of absorbed often and often in my life absorbed by my own narrative in my head about whether or not i should leap and then once i left i completely was clueless that a lot of other people left after me just

because they saw me leave and i you know and i'm not always the person who leaps first and so i would encourage i'd encourage people to think about you never know who's watching you and hoping that you'll be

the one that leaps and if you go they'll go behind you they'll never tell you that they won't usually in group settings and so sometimes just being the one that leaps in oh that's so interesting encourages other people to do the same

yeah nobody ever says go ahead if if you leave first i'll um i'll i'll probably follow right behind if they do we get a little nervous don't we yeah this sounds artificial like no now i don't believe you you know

something i don't and it's down in the water yeah go ahead you go first how about some advice for listeners uh to to to reproduce some of the success in great teams that we've been talking about today i uh you know this particular this past

year uh with the you know the pain and the suffering of the coven virus everywhere around the world i'm i'm very fortunate to be part of a a business that we were in in many countries around the world and so

i've had the opportunity to to work with lots of different people on my team at the same time to see just the the level of kind of uh crisis and pain and suffering that's come because of the covid

um pandemic and um uh there are there are gifts within even a crisis you just got to go looking for them um because they're not right out there they're usually the difficult things the painful things are the ones that are

confronting us uh hour-and-a-hour or day-to-day in a in a pandemic like we've been seeing and that none of us have experienced in our lifetimes one of the things that's become really really clear to me um through last year

kind of almost starting at this moment a year ago was the power of compassion and the compassion uh truly is the business imperative if you had asked me if you had kind of said that lying to me a year or a few years ago i would

probably think you were describing a poster outside of the human resources department or one of those you know teamwork yeah and some happy people jumping or whatnot but what i have found is that compassion truly is a business imperative

if people are taking care of themselves if they're not taking care of each other if they're not looking after their family and the stuff that matters most i mean you know you you and i are in each other's homes right now to a

certain degree and i think the pandemic has somewhat sliced a hole between that that false veil between our work lives and our live lives and so the idea of compassion you know if people are taking care of themselves

they're not taking care of their families their loved ones their communities um then forget about the ice cream and now that sounds almost basic to say but that's not often how business operates it's like well we got to make ice cream

we got to do whatever we got to do and the reality is no no we don't and we don't what we have to do is we have to take care of people make sure that they have what they need to to to be safe to be

healthy to thrive um and so if you would ask me that i think this idea of compassion is a business imperative and also um while the compassion side may may sound kind of touchy feely or be kind of a soft skill type of a thing

um it takes vigilance to bring compassion so particularly in crisis so when you think about um needing to do the right things and take decisions quickly in a crisis situation particularly when it relates to people's lives and their

safety and their health like keeping your place of work safe sending people home following the right protocol from the world health organization of cdc that has been constantly evolving over the past year it requires vigilance and so never

before in my life did i learn that i see or experience or learn the importance of of of of compassion at the same time as vigilance this need this need vigilant vigilant to protect your people vigilant to protect your teammates vigil

to protect your business uh because because uh people's livelihoods uh also matter they don't matter as much as lives we talk about many many that consultants maybe analysts maybe people have studied kind of um of the organizations thriving or failing to

thrive through the pandemic talk about lives and livelihoods that lies that's the number one focus and then after that livelihoods because if people don't know how they're going to pay their rent if people don't know how they're going to

make sure that their heat is on make sure that um can have food livelihood does matter and your job or your career or your vocation is one part of that and so that connection of kind of compassion is

a business imperative and the need for vigilance to really fight very hard uh and to be working very hard to to um [Music] to take decisive action um i used to think those were kind of inversely related you know this idea of

vulnerability and vigilance you know people need to show that they're vulnerable it's okay it's okay to to cry it's okay to feel stressed it's there's a lot of conversation there has been there needs to be more of it

around psychological health mental well-being um people are struggling they're struggling badly so this idea of vulnerability is part of compassion and being vigilant being vigilant to say no we're not going to do it that way no we're not going to

open the office no you're not going to work no we will not open if we don't have the proper protective equipment whatever it might be even though there may be other pressures like what about this what do we tell our customers or whatnot

sometimes you just have to try to make things black and white particularly through a crisis so you can try to do what you think is right is there anything else you'd like to add anything anything else interesting you're working

on it any music anything at all yeah yeah yeah maybe one thing uh ben and jerry's one of the things i've been learning a lot about is um are are all the things that benadryl has been fighting for for over four decades

topics issues around social justice and climate justice and to be honest with you i spent most of my life really not understanding this type of stuff and i gradually became much more interested in my career and i think that's the reason why i

ended up at ben and jerry's to kind of answer your earlier questions that hindsight things are clear to me why i'm here because just selling stuff um you know a number of years ago just wasn't turning me on as much and i

found that i wanted to use the stuff i was doing every day to try to do more good without overstating it through the business and then the businesses and the brands that have been part of the unilever and ben and

jares gives gives the team gives me a tremendous opportunity tremendous privilege to learn about topics such as white supremacy culture uh white male privilege systemic racism um the the very nature of trying to make ben and jerry's an anti-racist

company and um as a very white business that was founded in the second white state and still is very white today uh you know being white is not bad um and i don't feel any shame about being a white

guy the only shame i think i should feel is that if i fail to recognize the privilege that i have in this in this society and doing something to to confront um those systemic things that give me advantage

and that activate and persistently disadvantage other people particularly black people indigenous other people of color um and i'm again i'm no expert in these topics but i'm learning kind of day by day and the teamwork is also central here as

well you know the old adage that um you know many shovels make many hands make light work and many shovels are required to move them out it's just the challenges that we're facing around us whether they're related to racial equity

lgbtq rights refugees climate uh issues these are things that we have ben and jerry's have been working on for for many years only through teamwork can we hope to have any progress um i'm just one person i happen to have

a kind of a fancy title but i'm just one person and there's this mythology about kind of hierarchy you know the reality i found is that the higher you go the less you know and that becomes poorer every day with

the pace of the world and business moving quickly so there's a bit there's a bit of a democratizing force where um people at the top of organizations are often the least qualified to help the organization kind of move more transform and this is

also true for issues around social climate justice we can only do these things by doing them together so this nature of collaboration within teams is also is it is important but the kind of change that we need to have in the

world to tackle these big big systemic problems we're going to have to work more together so i checked with the skill set of teamwork and has never been more important i've learned that you can't be neutral on a moving train

and uh and this idea that you're either part of the solution you're part of the problem and that when you declare that you want to be neutral you're actually declaring that you're okay with the status quo including if the status quo oppresses

people or it's bad for the environment and tonight and i have to confess for a lot of my life i was someone that just said well i just want to stay neutral on this i'm not going to get involved the

reality is you you that you're basically making a strong declaration that you're perfectly comfortable that white people should have what they have and black people shouldn't that the environment should be polluted and you're okay with that and so um

i would encourage people to to find a way to do something particularly through their vocation through their work that not only does the day stuff but actually is having an active positive impact that's something that you care about it doesn't actually matter

exactly what it is we do certain things with ben jerry's yeah uh but but but really you you can do both you can do your work you can do your vocation you can do your business assuming that it isn't already part of

solving a climate or a social injustice but you can do those things and that often can create even stronger teamwork because people ben ben ben cohen uh one of our co-founders of ben and jerry's is famous for saying

you know the strongest bonds you can form with your your fans or your consumers are over shared values and your shared values are not things you just talk about the things that you're willing to take action on all right that is so well said thank you

for all of that and if if if listeners and viewers want to want to learn more learn more about you learn more about ben jerry's and and and the the mission that goes beyond ice cream the mission that goes beyond making music

with friends and acquaintances uh is there a website is there some way they can get in touch or learn more yeah sure you can just go to our benches put in your browser ben jerry's dot com and and you'll go to our website

you can learn about not on our ice cream but all the things that we're doing um you can follow us on twitter you can follow us on instagram um we don't we don't hide the stuff that we're trying to do

um and uh we certainly welcome folks to engage with us or give us criticism i'm all about constructive criticism i got people telling me they don't like stuff we're doing every day that's perfectly fine too but thankfully we get

we have more fans that are supporting the work we're doing yeah just go to our website that's probably the easiest way to get info awesome thank you so much matt matthew this has been a a really great pleasure i i've we

haven't talked in in quite a while and it's been awesome catching up i really appreciate your time today thank you so much thank you for having me this has been the feeling is nothing short of mutual and listeners and viewers remember to

support this podcast visit my website kasparovsky.com [Music] you