Ep 93 Purpose in Action: Hilary McAllister on Climate J… — Transcript

Welcome to the For Love and Money podcast, the show where business and social purpose meet to inspire a movement for positive change. Here's your host, Carolyn Butler Madden. Before we start, I want to acknowledge that this conversation was recorded on Guy Migel and Garagle country and to pay my respects to elders past and present. Today's episode is a powerful exploration of what it really means to align your work with your values and what becomes possible when a business is brave enough to take a stand. My guest is Hillary Mallister, activism manager at Ben & Jerry's Australia. Now, most people know Ben and Jerry's for its ice cream. Fewer know that the business was founded by two hippies with a deep belief that business could and should be a force for progressive social change. And even fewer understand what it looks like day to day to lead activism from inside a global brand. Hillary's path to this role has been anything but linear. She began her career in events, followed her growing concern for climate and the environment into grassroots activism, and she went on to co-found a not-for-profit called Four Wild Places, all before stepping into her current role at Ben & Jerry's. In our conversation, Hillary shares what drew her into activism, how serendipity and shared values shaped her career, and why aligning your work with what you care about isn't always easy, but is always worth it. We explore Ben & Jerry's long-standing commitment to social justice, why climate justice is the focus of their work here in Australia, and how the brand partners with grassroots campaigners to create real-world change, not just awareness. Hillary also takes us behind the scenes of one of their most successful Australian campaigns, the thinking behind their brand voice, and how they navigate criticism while staying true to their values. And we go deeper into the idea of mission lock, what it means, why it matters, and why Ben & Jerry's continues to stand as a rare example of a business that has protected its social mission, even within a complex corporate structure. At its heart, this is a conversation about love in business: love for the planet, love for community, and love expressed not through words, but through action. I hope it leaves you feeling informed, inspired, and perhaps a little more courageous about the role you and the organizations you're part of can play in shaping a better future. Let's get into it. Hillary, welcome to the For Love and Money podcast. Thank you so much for having me, Carolyn. It's great to be here. Wonderful. Our signature question is, is there a role for love in business? What do you think? Well, I guess it depends on how you define business. If business is creating a society in which everyone can live out their fullest potential on a healthy, thriving planet, I think absolutely, you know, that is our life's purpose. But if you think of business as making money, well, I think sadly there's a lot of love lacking from that side of business. And honestly, I think it could do with a lot more love to turn it all around. Absolutely. I love that you answered it depends how you define business because a lot of people answer it depends how you define love. So, I love that perspective that you've got the focus on business, which is brilliant. So, who is... Yeah. Hillary, you've built a career. I was looking at your background. You've built a career at the intersection of advocacy, activism, politics, and purpose-led brands. Looking back, can you share with our listeners the key moments or experiences that led you to where you are today? Yeah, it's an interesting exercise. I guess when I started the role with Ben and Jerry's earlier this year, I kind of was like, how did I even get here? Like the fact that there's a role that's got the title of activism manager is wild in itself, let alone me being the right person to do that job. And I guess I'm somewhat new to this world. I guess since about 2020, I was one of those co, you know, people who was forced to take a bit of a look at my life and reassess things pretty severely. But I think the more I think about it, it definitely goes back to my childhood growing up on our family farm in northwestern Victoria, very much amongst nature and at the mercy of the elements with my dad being a farmer and being very reliant on the climate and the weather. So, I think it's definitely always been ingrained in me from camping holidays to witnessing the millennium drought and the impacts that climate has on people's livelihoods and their well-being. And we didn't really call it this at the time, but mental health as well. But then I guess like many people, I went to school and university and had a lovely time and pursued the creative arts, which I really loved, and worked in the event industry for quite a while. But I guess as I got towards my later 20s, I started to feel a bit uneasy about the work that I was doing, and I guess climate was becoming more of a commonplace topic. We had the Adani—that was my first protest to stop Adani—and I guess that started to reignite in me some of those values around caring for nature and making sure that we have a healthy planet to live on. So when COVID happened and put a swift end to my events event design career, it was, I guess, an open opportunity to find work or ways of living that allowed me to live in line with my values. And I guess I had a lot less. I moved out of Melbourne. I was living with my parents. So money became not as important because I didn't need a lot of it. So, it, I guess, allowed me to pursue things that were more for the love than for the money. And I guess I've kind of been doing that ever since in terms of getting good at living with less. So, that way I have more freedom to choose work, whether it be paid or unpaid, that really fulfills me. And I've just been lucky that I don't necessarily believe in fate, but I do believe in, I guess, karma to a degree. And you know that if you put hard work in, if it is unpaid, eventually that will come back in some positive way. And I ran for the Greens, and when someone got elected, it meant I could get a job working in politics, which was such a fantastic opportunity. And then, you know, from there it was the next kind of stepping stone was when this job with Ben & Jerry's came up. And in some ways, you look back and think, wow, I've been crafting my CV for this one role that I didn't even know existed. So yeah, there's definitely a bit of timing and luck, but also a lot of hard work in there. What is that the expression that success is where hard work meets good luck or something? Hard work meets luck or something like that. Yeah, exactly. And I think that I don't know, a bit of faith as well in knowing that if you're doing good with good people, that they'll look out for you and good opportunities will arise. And I see that happening a lot because, you know, I feel like people want to support others who want to do good for the world as well. So it definitely works both ways. You have the dream job of so many people I know. [Laughter] So, COVID was the catalyst that ended your events career, but I'm sure there are many skills that you've brought from that career into what you're doing now. How did you actually come across—how did this job come onto your radar? Because I know there'll be many listeners who are like, but how? How? Yeah. Well, that's the funny thing as well, is that sometimes these things arise in your life when you're not even looking. And that was definitely the case with me. So back in 2020, I was one of the co-founders of a non-for-profit called Four Wild Places. We essentially are a bunch of trail runners who want to see the places that we love to explore protected. And it all started down in Luchra to Tasmania at a Bob Brown F...

Migel and Garagle country and to pay my respects to elders past and present. Today's episode is a powerful exploration of what it really means to align your work with your values and what becomes possible when a business is

brave enough to take a stand. My guest is Hillary Mallister, activism manager at Ben & Jerry's Australia. Now, most people know Ben and Jerry's for its ice cream. Fewer know that the business was founded by two hippies with a deep

belief that business could and should be a force for progressive social change. and even fewer understand what it looks like daytoday to lead activism from inside a global brand. Hillary's path to this role has been anything but linear.

She began her career in events followed her growing concern for climate and the environment into grassroots activism and she went on to co-found a not for profofit called Four Wild Places. all before stepping into her current role at

Ben & Jerry's. In our conversation, Hillary shares what drew her into activism, how serendipity and shared values shaped her career, and why aligning your work with what you care about isn't always easy, but is always worth it.

We explore Ben & Jerry's long-standing commitment to social justice, why climate justice is the focus of their work here in Australia, and how the brand partners with grassroots campaigners to create real world change, not just awareness.

Hillary also takes us behind the scenes of one of their most successful Australian campaigns, the thinking behind their brand voice and how they navigate criticism while staying true to their values.

And we go deeper into the idea of mission lock. What it means, why it matters, and why Ben & Jerry's continues to stand as a rare example of a business that has protected its social mission, even within a complex corporate

structure. At its heart, this is a conversation about love in business. Love for the planet, love for community, and love expressed not through words, but through action.

I hope it leaves you feeling informed, inspired, and perhaps a little more courageous about the role you and the organizations you're part of can play in shaping a better future. Let's get into it.

Hillary, welcome to the For Love and Money podcast. Thank you so much for having me, Caroline. It's great to be here.

Wonderful. Our signature question is, is there a role for love in business? What do you think?

Well, I guess it depends on how you define business. If if business is creating a society in which everyone can live out their fullest potential on a healthy, thriving planet, I think absolutely, you know, that is is our life's purpose.

But if you think of business of making money, well, I think sadly there's a lot of love lacking from that side of business. And honestly, I think it could do with a lot more love to to turn it

all around. Absolutely. I love that you answered it depends how you define business because a lot of people answer it depends how you define love. So, I love that perspective that you've got the the focus on business, which is

brilliant. So, who is Yeah. Hillary, you've built a career. I was looking at your background. You've built a career at the intersection of advocacy activism politics and purpose-led brands. Looking back, can you share with our listeners the key

moments or experiences that led you to where you are today? Yeah, it's an interesting exercise. I guess when I started the role with Ben and Jerry's earlier this year, I kind of was like, how did I even get here? like

the fact that there's a role that's got the title of activism manager is is wild in itself, let alone me being the right person to do that job. And I guess I'm somewhat new to this this world. I guess

since about 2020, I was one of those co, you know, people who was forced to take a bit of a a look at my life and and reassess things pretty severely. But I think the more I think about it, it

definitely goes back to my childhood growing up on our our family farm in northwestern Victoria, very much very much amongst nature and at the mercy of the elements with my dad being a farmer and being very reliant on on the climate

and the weather. So, I think it's definitely always been ingrained in me from camping holidays to witnessing the millennium drought and the impacts that climate has on on people's livelihoods and their well-being. And we didn't really call it this at the time, but

mental health as well. But then I guess like many people, I went to school and university and had a lovely time and pursued the creative arts where I really which I really loved and worked in the event industry for quite a while. But I

guess as I got towards my later 20s, I started to feel a bit uneasy about the work that I was doing and I guess climate was becoming more of a a commonplace topic. We had the Adani that was my first protest to stop Adani and I

guess that started to reignite in me some of those values around caring for for nature and making sure that we have a healthy planet to live on. So when co happened and put a swift end to my events event design career, it was I

guess an open opportunity to to find work or ways of ways of living that allowed me to live in line with my values and and I guess I had a lot less.

I moved out of Melbourne. I was living with my parents. So money became not as important because I didn't need a lot of it. So, it I guess allowed me to pursue things that were more for the love than

for the money. And I guess I've kind of been doing that ever since in terms of getting good at living with less. So, that way I have more freedom to choose work, whether it be paid or unpaid, that

really fulfills fulfills me. And I've just been lucky that I I don't necessarily believe in fate, but I do believe in I guess karma to a degree.

And you know that if you put hard work in, if it is unpaid, eventually that will come back in some positive way. And I ran for the Greens and that when someone got elected, it meant I could get a job working in politics, which was

such a fantastic opportunity. And and then, you know, from there it was the next kind of stepping stone was when this job with Ben & Jerry's came up. And in some ways, you look back and think, wow, I've been crafting my CV for this

one role that I didn't even know existed. So yeah, there's definitely a bit of timing and luck and but also a lot of hard work in there.

What what is that the expression that success is where hard work means uh meets good luck or something? Hard work meets luck or something like that.

Yeah, exactly. And I think that I don't know a bit of faith as well in knowing that if you're if you're doing good with good people that they'll, you know, look out for you and good opportunities will arise. And I see that happening

happening a lot because, you know, I feel like people want to support others who who want to do good for the world as well. So it definitely works both ways.

You have the dream job of so many people I know. [laughter] So, so co was the catalyst that you know ended your events career but I'm sure there are many skills that you've brought from that career into what you're doing now.

How how did you actually come across? How how did this job come onto your radar? Because I know there'll be many listeners who are like but how how Yeah. Well, that's the funny thing as well is that sometimes these things

arise in your life when you're not even when you're not even looking. And that was definitely the case with me. So back in 2020, I was one of the co-founders of a nonforprofit called For Wild Places.

We essentially a bunch of trail runners who want to see the places that we love to explore protected. And it all started down in Luchra to Tasmania at a Bob Brown Foundation event called to kind of trail in March of 2020 when I'd recently

been laid off and I guess discovered this community of like-minded outdoors people who wanted to see places like Takina protected and we left there basically flew into Melbourne and it was all locked down from then on. So it was

the timing was incredible because there was lots of us who were at a bit of a loose end in terms of we couldn't do anything. We weren't going into an office. We all had a lot of time and I

guess For Wild Places became our outlet to to maintain a sense of purpose during a very tumultuous time. And I'm still very involved in For Wild Places. I'm still the CEO there and one of the the remaining co-founders. And I reached out

to Ben and Jerry's because they had been involved in a campaign that we're very involved in and said, "Hey, I see you've taken an interest in this campaign in the Piliga Forest uh to stop the Narri Colam Gas Project. Would you be

interested in, you know, being a part of it with us?" And I got a reply from my now boss saying, "Well, actually, our activism manager has just left and we're looking to fill the role. So, you know, we'll let you know when someone will be

in touch. And I was like, hm, tell me more. [laughter] So, yeah, it's one of those things you don't It was advertised on seek, but I wasn't I wasn't looking. Usually, you know, I don't go looking for jobs on

seek if ever. But there you go. I wouldn't have found out about it if I wasn't already doing the work. So, it's one of, like I said, one of those serendipitous things that you look back and think it was just right place, right

time. 100%. and doing what you love, you know, being driven by what you care about and doing what you do through for Wild Places. I met your co-founder the other day at at a dinner event we ran and the

other piece of coincidence there was one of our other guests, Saxon Wright, who's been a guest on this podcast. He is co-founder of Pablo and Rusty's, but he was founder, co-founder, and CEO of Husky. Apparently he sponsored one of

your events and ran in it as well. So good people find each other, right?

Exactly. Exact. It's just amazing. And that's what I love about all of the roles I've had in this kind of purpose-led space is, you know, they're they're working relationships, but they're so much more. So, and that they they go a whole lot deeper than a

business relationship ever would because it's grounded in purpose and passion and you know that you're all fighting for the same towards the same outcome. So even though you might meet someone in passing, you know instantly that you've got a very deep rooted connection which

yeah is just worth its weight in gold. It's shared narrative and I think um there's nothing that expresses it better than Seth Goden's concept of people like us. You know, people like us believe things like this and it's that identity,

that shared narrative which is so so powerful and the energy behind collective movements of positive change. So yes, we're seeing that that we're seeing that play out. So, Hillary, Ben and Jerry's. So, for someone who everyone will know of Ben and Jerry's,

but for someone who perhaps just knows them for ice cream, can you explain a little bit about who Ben and Jerry's is and what they stand for?

Yeah. So, Ben & Jerry's is obviously most known for its delicious jam-packed ice cream with all of the funky funky flavors. But it's interesting. There's a great book called Double Dipped, which was written by Ben Cohen and Jerry

Greenfeld, the the co-founders of Ben and Jerry's, which is, I guess, their their startup guide. And reading it is just absolutely full of so many amazing facts that just show how they were just two two self-confessed hippies who

wanted to start a business together. And they were going to do bagels, but the equipment was too expensive, so they landed on ice cream. And essentially they just wanted to have a product so they could share progressive messaging

and social change within their community through you know through storytelling through through a product and they've always bought their own flavor to it.

Like every year after the first year of being in business they had free cone day where they gave everyone free ice creams and that still exists today when you know it was 1976. So, I'm terrible at math, but however many years that is,

old friend. Yeah, exactly. And for them, it was just they were just so grateful to the Vermont community for supporting them and helping them keep, you know, the doors open for that first year that it was a genuine gift of appreciation. And

the the little morsel that I love that was if you were visibly pregnant, you got two scoops, but everyone only got one. So it just speaks to their, you know, they've always been progressive just fantastic people who have bought

the fun and irreverence of the brand into everything they do. And you know, they've always said that we're an activist brand that just happens to make ice cream. And I think that it's very ingrained within the brand in the

States, but not so much in Australia. And I really see that as part of my role is to make sure that people, you know, love our ice cream, but they're also aware that by eating our delicious ice cream, they're helping power our

campaigns to get climate justice in Australia and to start to, you know, there's lots of work to do here. There's also lots of work in other markets around the world. We have six activism managers in Europe, America, and

Australia. and we're all working on big big issues in a space where business often is too scared to to really speak up as well.

Yeah. So six around the world including you. Yeah. Exactly. So, it's a very small group, but it's a very hardworking group. And it's fantastic to spend time with them and to throw ideas back and forth. And in some ways, I guess in

Australia, some of our problems aren't as nasty as, you know, what's going on in the States, in the EU at the moment.

But at the same time, it's really nice to feel part of a a global movement as well. And I guess utilizing the resources of a global team to in a market like Australia is just so beneficial as well.

Absolutely. So I saw you speak recently at the annual gathering for BC Corp certified businesses uh the assembly retreat and um the session that you were on you were on a panel session and it was about collective action

not being optional. I think do businesses have a moral obligation to act. So clearly the answer for you was yes given I mean your your role speaks to that but you mentioned that different global regions focus on different issues

like you said gas in Australia criminal justice reform in the US refugees in Europe.

Yeah. How do you determine which issues matter most in the Australian context? Yeah. So, broadly speaking, the general themes in each of our major markets, yeah, it's social justice in the US, refugee justice in the EU, and then

climate justice here in Australia. And I'm not sure when those were set in, but for better or for worse, they've remained incredibly relevant to each of those areas. And I think that we definitely color outside the lines, you

know, when we choose to. But I guess it's one of those things where there's so many issues. And I think the same goes as an individual. Like there's so many things to care about that caring about everything is just going to tie

you in a knot and you'll just end up in the fetal position on the ground thinking, you know, there's just too much to do. So like with me as an individual, I've choose to pursue climate environmental justice as my, you

know, my path. And I am very grateful to everyone who's fighting the other crises that that exist in Australia and globally. But having that broad I guess view in Australia in terms of climate justice that is a very large umbrella

and we are you know I guess not selective but it is I think anything can come down to climate justice is the the the long or the short of it in terms of what we choose to spend our time on. So

it is find it very hard to say no sometimes when someone comes up with a great idea or a campaign but unfortunately there's only so much budget in the you know in each year and so many resources but try to make sure

that what we're doing is is partnerled and I think that's what we really pride ourselves on at Ben & Jerry's is it's not about us it's not about the brand we invest in activism because it's part of our DNA not because it's seen in as

corporate responsibility or you know it's just what we've always done so in a really lucky position to to do it and yes we want to see results but those results aren't KPIs or that kind of thing it's like we want to see numbers

of signatures we want to see environmental change we want to see progressive change and we also know that that's not a linear journey so it can be very hard to track your impact sometimes and occasionally you get a win and

you've got to take the time to to celebrate that and acknowledge that, but there's also a lot of other things on the backlog that that need our attention all the time.

Yeah, I'm sure there are. And but but I think what what really stands out with Ben and Jerry's is this whole idea of business can be such a powerful vehicle for for for change for positive impact.

And it's just it's not understood. It's not leveraged. It's not tapped into. I mean, more and more businesses are doing it, but but that that is the reason for being for Ben and Jerry. So, it's such an interesting case study. I'd love if

you could share with us an example of one of the campaigns you've run in Australia.

Yeah. So this year's been, I guess, somewhat more quiet since I've been behind the reigns, but our previous activism manager, Steph, one of the larger ones was around gas, like you said, an offshore gas project that was proposed down in Victoria or between

Victoria and Tasmania. And interestingly, I was aware of Ben and Jerry's work on this cuz I was working on it from the Greens in Victoria's side. So, you know, it's one of those things as well. It's many cuts is what

it takes to actually get cut through on these things. So Ben and Jerry's work with Surf Rider Foundation, which is a a global movement, but has a very large presence in Australia to create a documentary called say called Southern

Blast, which was a very evocative, beautiful, but also I guess startling truth of what is seismic blasting cuz offshore gas is out of sight and out of mind. And seismic blasting particularly is happens in the oceans. So we don't we

don't see it just a little ship on the on the surface and all of this stuff is happening underneath the waves. So it was I guess a way to becomes a resource that people can can share and see and

understand the problem because that's you know the first job of any campaign is to to identify the issue and make sure that people are you know feel feel empowered to take action because they understand what the problem is but then

what the solutions are as well. and they organized a bunch of screenings all along the east coast from Luchraita up to Sydney and showed this movie and had discussions around you know how to take action and also had a lot of other

groups that are like-minded come along and have a stall. So it's you know it's kind of like pick your flavor of ice cream but pick your flavor of activism.

Is it Parrots for Climate or is it, you know, the local energy renewables group or or is it Surf Rider? You know, there's lots of different activism takes lots of different forms and we need all of them to make this change. So, that

culminated in a huge paddle out which I attended, you know, but by the time un sadly by the time I got to the Ben and Jerry's ice cream, they were all sold out. So, you know, they're it's a

popular You had to paddle out. You've got to get quick. [laughter] Yeah, but that got a lot of media and maybe four or five months later, TGS, who was the proponent that wanted to do the world's largest size blasting

project, sent out a email consisting of about four sentences, which to the TLDDR version is, "This is too much effort. We give up. See you. See you later." [laughter] Success.

And it was just incredible. And you know, it's one of those things that you never know what ticked it over the edge, but you know that it was a culmination of all of the campaigning from from Surf Rider and all the other ocean-based

organizations to really get it over the line. And and I think what I'm excited about bringing to Ben and Jerry is is that we our product is fun and so much this within the environment and climate movement, it can be just really hard

work. It's never ending. It's unrelenting. Like I said, the wins are often few and far between, but we sell a really fun, delicious product that appeals to all demographics. So, how can we utilize that to, you know, basically throw a

better party than the people trying to destroy the world? Like, we we really want to Yeah. bring that irreverence and fun that Ben and Jerry have had since day dot to the work we're doing in Australia because yeah it's important

work but it also can't it also has to be fun at the same time.

I love that and I love that you know you you see the role of the brand as not being the hero but educating and empowering your customers to actually take action. How how do like how do you turn fans of ice cream into activists

and advocates for for impact? That's a great question and that's something that we're constantly working on and we have a a pathway that we call always on activism. So we utilize our social channels to I guess drip feed

information to people who follow us. We like to call them our fans. So that way, you know, we're not just popping up every 3 to 6 months with a campaign, but we're always in their feeds bringing them, I guess, like you said, our focus

is on is on gas and eroding the social license of gas. And there's lots of different ways, different approaches we can take to do that. So, it's storytelling, sharing information in a very digestible and approachable way that tries to, like I said earlier, like

empower empower people with information so that way they can feel like they understand it and hopefully spark a conversation with with someone in their life to say, "Oh, did you did you see this post from Ben and Jerry's? Like,

can you believe that Santos and Woodside don't pay any tax?" Like, that's that's ridiculous.

And rather than it just being something we do on a, you know, like I said, a campaign basis. And it's interesting, you know, you always get people who like to chime in in the comments and tell you to to stick to making ice cream and that

climate change isn't real and all of that, but you just ignore ignore the noise and and keep steady and just hope that yeah, we obviously look at, you know, the metrics and that kind of thing, but that's the beauty of this

being ingrained in the work we do. It's not like, oh, this content's underperforming, we're going to can it.

It's like, no, we're here for the long game. like we need to maintain this conversation with our fans, you know, 52 weeks of the year because the problem's not going away and neither can our attention to it. So, yeah, it's

something that, you know, it's not a perfect solution, but it's it's something we're trying and it's something we're constantly reflecting on and and changing and trying to to meet people where they're at and to make it feel like an inclusive movement rather

than something that is, you know, unattainable or inaccessible, like, you know, like I said, there's lots of different flavors wherever it comes. and we're just trying to offer a certain flavor that might appeal to some.

Before we dive back in, a quick word from me. If you're enjoying this conversation, you might want to know that I work with leaders and organizations on how purpose becomes a powerful driver of trust, performance, and resilience. I speak at leadership

conferences and company events about how purpose shows up where it matters most, in leadership, in culture, and in strategy. helping organizations grow with clarity and confidence in a changing world. You can find out more at my website carolinebutlamaden.com.

Now back to the episode. Do you think the fact that the brand is, you know, irreverent and playful? I I just wonder if that gives you latitude to play in this area or or to to engage people more than a straight 180 brand

might be able to do. I think so. I think we try to make it that way because it is like you said if your your brand or organization might be a bit more not necessarily conservative in the conservative sense but in terms

of what you say and how you say it. We're lucky in that we love a we love a good pun and you know making up words that sound like a bed and Jerry's flavor or whatever it might be. And I think

that's, you know, I think comedy and not taking yourself too seriously, especially in Australia, is a really uh admired trait, whether you're at an individual level or a brand level. So, I think it's yeah, not taking yourself too

seriously is important. And I think that there's room for both. Like, we've partnered with the climate council on some things because, you know, their demographic is very different to what ours is at Ben & Jerry's. But the things

that they put out such high quality researched communications that we want to kind of translate that to a a our younger ice cream eating demographic and vice versa. So it's like I said, there's not a wrong or a right way, but there's

just lots of different people and we need to say things in a lot of different ways to meet people wherever they are.

That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. I think I remember you saying at the BC Corp event on the panel that where you get where you get your on social media people criticizing you or bashing you that your policy is not to

respond, you allow your fans to respond on your behalf. Is is that is that right?

Yeah, precisely. So, which is makes everyone's life a lot easier, I think. I I don't know. I'm a bit of a sucker for punishment sometimes. I like to go on some of our Facebook posts and just look through the comments and and I'm very

grateful that it's not up to us to respond. I know that there's particular laws in Australia that obviously, you know, require you to make sure that it's a it's a safe place and there's a level of not respect, but you know, safety

there. So, I guess we do do that to a degree, but we're lucky in that we've when we have fans, we have like super fans who are all all in when it comes to the brand and our activism and what we

stand for. So, like you said, they do our work for us in a fantastic genuine way that means that, you know, we don't engage. And I do see sometimes, you know, other brands engaging in a way that is in some cases hilarious, but at

the same time, it's I feel like it's a slippery slope when it comes to the comment section on on any social media platform. And we're very lucky that yeah, we can just leave it up to up to our fans to

to pitch in. And at the end of the day, the work that we're doing, we believe in it. And a lot of other people do too.

And no matter what you do, there's always going to be people who disagree. So, you know, once again, like Seth go to think of Seth Goden, like you can't please everyone. So, who are the people who are your true fans and making sure

that you're aligning to to them and then just shutting out the rest of the noise because otherwise you'll be careering all over the place with with no northstar and no one will know what you stand for anymore. That is such a strong

position to be in and I think every brand manager's dream to be able to be in that position that you're living it which is amazing. Now again at at B Corpse Assembly you mentioned that you were preparing for COP 31 being hosted

in Australia. This was what about six two months ago I think it was and it's now been agreed that Turkey will host it with Australia's Chris Bowen leading the negotiation. So what what does that now mean for the work that you were planning

that was in development? Yeah. So we were I guess very much waiting on our partners to you know like everyone to just to see what was happening and then I guess back them in and support the work that they wanted to

do in the leadup to COP 31. So in some ways that hasn't changed. Different organizations will get involved to different degrees. I think with Chris Bowen as the president, there is a real opportunity for Australia to play a

considerable role and I think the pressure needs to be maintained and probably ramped up a bit in terms of, you know, what outcomes we want for our First Nations people and our Pacific neighbors. But I think it has left a bit

of a, you know, a copsized hole in our back end of 2026. So, we are checking in with our partners to see how they're how they're feeling. There is a lot of disappointment within the movement, which is very understandable, and we're

definitely feeling it as well in terms of the potential that was there. But I think the fire in the belly is still very much there, and if anything, it's it's stronger than ever because we've missed an opportunity. So, how do we

make up that ground in other ways? And yeah, so it's checking in, it's having conversations, it's seeing what other pathways can we take, where are our resources the most useful and the most effective and trying to I guess

stay positive as well in terms of Australia's targets and contributions and commitments and that sort of thing.

So I think if anything for me personally, it's been like, okay, that was a missed opportunity. How do we redirect? And that's one thing I love about the climate environment movement.

They're dealt a lot of blows, but very resilient and always committed to to the task at hand and not being like, "Oh, well, that's gone. We give up now and we'll take our picnic and go home." It's yeah, the the fight never ends.

You can't you can't give up, can you? Not with something so important. And yet there are so many setbacks. The resilience is incredible of the people who are directly fighting for this.

I want to talk a little bit about partnerships. You mentioned Surf Rider and and you said, you know, you get a lot of approaches, but what makes a what do you look for in a partnership?

Yeah. So, I guess we've got we've had the the groups that we work with in the past and that is pretty broad. Like I said, Surf Rider Foundation, 350.org, or seed mob, climate council. They're just off a few off the top of my head, but we

I guess look for and I said this at assembly, like we we look to work in areas where we've earned the right to speak. And I guess that also goes to, you know, trying to stay on on task in

terms of what our direction is and not straying too far out of the lines. For example, we, you know, were involved in the yes campaign because that was obviously something that we believe was very important even though, you know,

and it is fundamental to climate justice as well. But at the same time for partnerships, yeah, it's honestly we're open to well, I'm open to anything and everything that kind of falls under under that umbrella.

And but at the same time it is a can be difficult because we support in different ways but also it still requires the partner to do a lot of the heavy lifting like it is still their campaign and you know coming from the

nonforprofit side myself like that in itself that need for resources can be difficult as well. So, it's also trying to find partners who are who are in a position to take on something that, you know, might be a the biggest campaign

that they've worked on, for example, in terms of scale, but have the the resources to to see that through and to make it as good as it can be because yes, we we support, but you know, there's a lot of work that goes into

these campaigns on the on the edges as well. So, I guess it's trying to find that balance between supporting smaller and medium-sized organizations and larger ones as well, but I guess trying to use our resources as effectively as possible and

making sure there's a real clear call to action that is, I guess, tangible to our fans because, you know, we also have about 25 scoop shops across Australia.

there are, you know, ice cream stores and we try and involve them in our campaigns, which is really powerful, but also, you know, it's kind of in a transaction when you're purchasing an ice cream, the the scooper might have 10

seconds to ask them if they'd like to sign a petition. And how do you, you know, summarize a a huge campaign into a would you like fries with that equivalent can be really difficult, but it's also really valuable because a lot

of these problems that we face are big and hairy and juicy, but how do we summarize it into its purest form so we can communicate it in a, you know, transactional conversation over an ice cream counter? And I guess we're looking

for for partners and campaigns that our franchises and our stores can get behind as well because yes, we are a you know, we're a global company, but all of our franchises are small businesses that are that are locally owned. So we want to

make sure that you know they not necessarily feel comfortable but you know we all need to feel uncomfortable to get progressive change but that we make it tangible so that way we can have cut through all the way from from our

socials and paid media all the way through to a conversation at a scoop store.

Yeah, thank you for that. So Ben and Jerry's is famous for something quite rare in a big corporate business, which is a mission lock, which obviously those who understand what it means to be BC Corp certified would know that that's

part of becoming certified. So for Ben and Jerry's it meant that when Unilver acquired the business what was it 20 years ago or something like that the founders negotiated an independent governance structure that legally protected Ben and Jerry's social mission

even under corporate ownership and it's one of the strongest examples of mission protection in the world I think so recently there's been a bit of discussion about co-founder Ben Cohen stepping away from the independent board at the same time as Uni Unilver is

considering selling its ice cream division. I'd love you to speak to, you know, the questions that come out of that. What does it mean for the brand?

How is Ben and Jerry's, you know, thinking about protecting the integrity of its social mission as it goes through this period?

Yeah. So it has been a I've seem to have come at just the right time for everything to you know go into an immense period of change. But so basically like you said, Ben and Jerry sold Ben and Jerry's to Uni Lever in I

think it was like 2000 and yes they created an independent board of directors which is the Ben & Jerry's board of directors who it's a one of the there's a fantastic podcast called Business Wars between Nestle and Uni

Liber which I highly recommend for anyone who wants to understand the the nuts and bolts of it. I listened to it just after I just before I started and I was like, "Wow, I don't understand big business, but this is just like this needs to be a

movie type type plot line." But in the more recent years, Uni Lever made the decision to basically carve off all of its ice cream brands and create a new company. So, it hasn't been sold, but now we are owned by the Magnum Ice Cream

Company with Magnum being, I guess, amongst all of our ice cream brands, one of the largest, hence why it gets naming rights. But so this has been I guess in the in the pipeline for a little while, but it has understandably caused some

some ripples because Ben and Jerry sold Ben and Jerry's to Uni Lever and now the business that they sold has you know moved across to a completely new entity and and with that is a lot of question marks but as part of that basically the

the sale agreement in terms of the independent board has all is all remains in case. And just to clarify, Ben and Jerry aren't on the independent board of directors. They I guess were employees of Ben and Jerry's and you know, it was

up to them how much they wanted to be involved on an individual level and that sort of thing. But the the board of directors sit separately. And yeah, earlier this year, unfortunately, Jerry made the decision to to step away from

the company. I guess he was a was an employee. who was a familiar face at our head office in Vermont and obviously incredibly well-loved amongst the team.

But it was very I guess sad to see Jerry go because he is obviously such a legacy to the brand and in some ways it's it hasn't changed how we operate here in Australia. Some of these things have

made it through the news here. Obviously, it's a lot louder in the States because Ben and Jerry's is such a cultural icon. And Ben hasn't hasn't stepped away, but he is beating his own drum in terms of what he

thinks should happen with Ben and Jerry's, which, you know, Ben's an activist at heart, of course, is that's in his nature, so he can't not, you know, stand for something. But for us and for me, I guess on an individual

level, it's after reading the book Double Scoop, it they're just such icons who reinvented the way business operated back in 1976, you know, kind of before it was cool, before BC Corp and all these other, you know, ESG kind of

trendy things. Like they've always done business differently and it's it's incredibly sad to lose them, but also they've had such a good innings. they've dedicated their life to this work. And if anything, I just see it as, you know,

people always need to step away and enjoy, you know, their life and have some time to to do the things that they've always wanted to do and pass the responsibility on to the next generation. And I definitely feel that

we don't want to they've got us this far. I want to maintain their legacy and make sure that we keep fighting the good fight like they have for, you know, the past few decades. So it's it's a it's a

moment of change but at the same time with change comes opportunity and yeah it's going to be as of you know next year will be the standalone Magnum ice cream company and who knows what that will bring but at the same time Ben and

Jerry's is underpinned by that sale agreement and our independent board who yeah have a lot of you know who who are just such I guess staunch upholders of the Ben & Jerry's legacy and our social mission. And it's interesting, you know,

when I said I got this role and people like, oh, you've you've sold out and you go into the corporate world and all of this and I was like to some degree, yes, but at the same time, like you said,

it's such a unique position and I think that more business needs to be like Ben and Jerry's. And if and how did Ben and Jerry's set a example of how it can be done within, you know, the modern

corporate structure. It'd be nice to be independently owned, you know, or owned by the world or whoever owns Patagonia these days, but that's a very unique business model. So, how can you operate within the parameters of, you know, the

modern corporate capitalist system? It's not easy, but I feel like yeah, more people and more brands, businesses push against that mold and try and like Borb is doing redefine the way we do business. 100%. And I think that that

you know being told that you're selling out by going to corporate I think that's quite a traditional view because surely we need the power of business to get back to the roots of what business was there to do in the first place which

is to create value real value for society and that's exactly what Ben and Jerry's are doing in a very very distinctive way. Yeah, definitely.

So, Hillary, I'd love to bring it back to you, Hillary, the activist, and ask you to, you know, fast forward, let's say, over the next 5 years, 2030, whether you're working at Ben & Jerry's or whatever it may be. what you know

clearly your focus is now you know around climate action efforts for systemic change what what what would your dream be what might the world look like in Hillary's idealistic dream in 2030 well I guess the optimist in me would

like to think that we've we've solved all the problems we've taken the action we need to take and we're there's still a lot more to do but we've I Guess we're we're on the way. We're we're decarbonizing. We've we're phased or

phasing out fossil fuels and we've started repairing the planet instead of just extracting from it. But I'm also try and be optimistic. I'm a stubborn optimist, but at the same time, I think the reality will be will be quite

different. And I think that this this work will be more important than ever in terms of the decade of action. And if we miss our chance this decade, you know, it's we're just going to be working with even more

disaster and whatnot, you know, looking into the 2030s. But I think for me, it's it's also try to find that balance. I'm a huge fan of Bob Brown and I love how he encourages us to to live and play and

laugh and love and not just, you know, we need to we need to fight for a better future, but at the same time, we can't put our life on hold while we do that because this is a, you know, this is

we're in it for the long haul. And I look to people like Bob Brown and the late Jane Goodall and Sir David Atenburgh and just think, I want to be doing this my whole life.

So that means you know taking it easy in terms of not completely burning yourself out and going hell for leather and you know and choosing to walk away because it's just unsustainable. So I hope that in 5 years my life looks somewhat

similar in terms of finding con constantly trying to find that balance between you know work and life and travel and exploration and spending time in nature and spending time with friends and family and living but also fighting and maintaining the work and I think

it's about building community and belonging as well because to your point earlier like it is those kind of grassroots roots, you know, in-person smaller conversations and things that really shift the dial in a meaningful way. So, who knows what I'll be doing. I would

love to be full-time at For Wild Places at some point. At the moment, we're we're very far from that. So, 5 years, it might take a few more few more years for that to be a possibility. But I

really enjoy I guess doing this work. And I guess the the beauty of for Wild Places is that there's so much freedom that comes with that in terms of we are a small nimble organization that allows us to to jump on things and to bring new

people into the tent, but also we've got huge plans at Ben and Jerry's in terms of the work we're doing in Australia and abroad. So I also don't want to miss out on that. So it's Yeah, if we could find a bit more

time, you know, in the day to fit all this in. Carolina, it would be lovely.

But yeah, I think part of me, it's a bit like cop. Part of me hopes that things are better, but realistically, I think that things will be the same, if not worse, in terms of our our outlook for

the future and the the world that our next generations are going to inherit. So, yeah, I see it as a long slog. So, I don't want to burn myself out. I want to take time to enjoy it along the way, but

also, yeah, keep keep shifting that needle forward. And that's that's a realistic view as opposed to an idealistic one. But I'd also say [clears throat] it's there is a domino effect, isn't there? And sometimes you can just get to a certain point where

suddenly that change happens. And I, you know, I I know we've been hoping to get there for a long time and there's been push back, but part of part of what I love about hosting this podcast is talking to people like you and seeing,

you know, leaders and businesses who are rolling up their sleeves and doing things, you know, on climate action. I don't know if you've heard of Paloma's salon. Do you know Paloma Garcia? No. So she she and I'll link in the show notes

to this, but um she was a guest maybe last year sometime and she runs a hair salon. She's a climate activist and one she went to an event started learning about what was happening and decided that you know she couldn't walk past it.

And so she started by training getting a a climate action expert in to train her hairdressers. She now trains other hairdressers to speak to their clients about what actions they can take. And as she said, you don't speak to every

client, you know, you she actually trains them on, you know, to who to identify who would be open to it. So it's like things like that that you can see people who do who choose love not necessarily over money

but right alongside it and um the more we have that in business the more likely we will start to see more positivity. So so thank you. Thank you so much for the work that you're doing. It's so it's

it's so heartening to you know hear how you as an activist who had really started going down the track of politics is sees the opportunity for business and the vehicle it can provide for creating this sort of impact and

most importantly for choosing love of planet and people over love of money. [gasps] Obviously, money is a part of how we live, but but I think it's really inspiring to hear what you said at the beginning of this. So, I would love to

ask you, Hillary, to close out the show for with any final words that you have and also to add to that for listeners who care about climate action as much as you do, what is one simple action that

they can take today? Yeah. Well, I'm guessing this episode will be coming out before the end of the year or next year.

Possibly just at the end of the year. Okay, great. Well, I guess as we head Well, we've just started. We're in summer now. It's a time of year where for better or for worse, the the realities of climate change are very

apparent from heat waves to to flooding to, you know, the inevitable bush fires that we will have. So, I think that it's also a time when we often catch up with family or friends or people we might not

have seen in a while or people we see all the time. And I think that I just encourage people to have those conversations in whatever way feels comfortable to you to I guess not be necessarily alarmist about it, but just

the more that we can interweave what is happening in the world with the opportunity we have to do something about it is so important. And you know, we love talking about the weather. We love, you know, having these

conversations and often I feel like a bit of a broken record cuz it's like, "Oh, it's so hot today. Yeah, it fills me with anxiety because I think, oh, it's perfect conditions for a bushfire." You know, I go off on a tangent, but how

can you have that in your own way that I guess puts you out there as a as someone who cares and as an ally? Because there might be others who think, I feel the same way. what can we do about it? And I

have a back in my early days, I had a friend who was my climate action buddy and we'd go along to things together and be curious together. So, I think it's being open to well, first of all, knowing that you're not alone in feeling

these feelings, but finding people around you, whether it be at Nippers or in your book club or your workplace or your family, who are likeminded, and then going on that journey together to take action because, like I said, we

need to have fun at the same time. And we have fun when we're spending time with people we love. So, how do we combine those two things to interweave this into our everyday life? like the amazing Paloma in her hair salons.

That's just so fantastic. So, yeah, the more the more we can talk about this and normalize it, the better. And I feel like we're we're definitely on our way there. And this time of year, it's it's at the forefront of all of our lives.

So, making the most of that opportunity to yeah, like I said, keep the connection between what we're seeing and experience and climate change at the forefront of our mind.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the For Love and Money podcast. If you'd like to take a deeper dive into the purpose movement, visit us at the causeffect.com.au.

And remember, doing good is good for business. So if you're not doing good, then what are you doing?