“The nonduality retreat that made me walk away” – Rober… — Transcript

All right. So, Robert, first of all, thank you for being here on the Glorious Booth. And just for the audience to know, I met Robert when he joined one of my weekly peer support groups for people moving away from self-negating non-duality, recovering from harmful effects. And today, we'll be talking about Robert's journey with self-negating non-duality, especially the self-deconstruction teachings promoted on Angelo Dulo's Simply Always Awake YouTube channel. So, Robert went pretty deep, ended up attending one of the retreats, and had a profound moment of clarity, realizing that the path of self-abandonment wasn't actually what he truly wanted and had actually been dehumanizing and harmful in many ways. And we'll also explore his very poignant and, in my view, triumphant process of reclaiming the fullness of his humanity after this dehumanizing form of spirituality, rebuilding connections, friendship, family, and re-embracing and really rediscovering the preciousness of the self, the world of form, and relationships. And so I know it's both of our hope that our conversation will raise awareness and also bring validation and hope and courage, and I think even excitement for the future to anybody who's either feeling harmed by self-negating spirituality or simply questioning the value and health of its ideals and assumptions about reality and maybe feeling called to re-embrace themselves and rebuild relationships and connectivity and ultimately their full humanity. So I certainly hope it encourages people to see moving away from a self-negation path not as a failure or regression, but that it can be a positive step forward in your evolution and a step towards appreciating their lives in a whole new and more poignant way. So, I thought maybe a good place to dive in would be if you wanted to share maybe just a little bit about what did your life look like when you were just kind of discovering non-dual teachings? What was Robert's life looking like at that time?

Okay. Sure. Thanks, Jessica. Sure. That was amazing. Actually, that summary was wow. I'm glad you liked it.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a perfect encapsulation of this process, you know. So, my—I had a pretty normal life. Yeah, just your usual middle age, professional stress, business, you know, family, being a dad, husband, all that sort of stuff. Before I dove into this specific sort of thing, I had an invitation from old friends of mine to come join them in California for a get-together, and there was a psychedelic ceremony sort of thing that I had never, you know, I didn't know what it was. Never been in touch with any of that stuff, but these were good friends. So, I said, "Okay, what the heck? We'll go ahead and join and see what's that about." So, I went there and I had, you know, we had some mushrooms and, okay, some sort of tea in a guided ceremony and had the whole thing happen. And, you know, it was nice. It kind of opened up a few doors that I had never thought about exploring. And I guess their background in that particular ceremony was sort of Buddhist, Buddhist Buddhism sort of flare. And, you know, people were kind of relating their experience to or using Buddhist language, sort of interpretations for whatever sort of thing they experienced. Never been exposed to Buddhism or anything like that either. So all these things were new to me. So I went down that path for, you know, a couple of years on and off.

And so, I think that was the gateway for me that led to, I guess, the algorithm in YouTube and this sort of thing to start offering me things into, you know, non-duality and so on and so forth.

Got it. So, psychedelic exploration, being introduced to kind of some of the Eastern Enlightenment world.

Yeah, I think that tends to be a gateway for a lot of people. I did want to touch on one thing. I'm sure we'll get there either way, but at the time, I know that something that a lot of people listening might relate to is at that time, did you already have a family and kids and career?

Yeah. Yeah, I did. I did. So, I had all those things. This was barely just right before COVID and, you know, spanned that kind of COVID couple of years. So, yeah. Yeah, I'm 56. So, yeah, I was in my 50s already.

Okay. I had all that stuff going on. I did have, you know, early on in my life, I did have a pretty bad health situation that led to pretty bad depression and sort of that whole thing. And that led me to read Eckhart Tolle's Power of Now and all those kind of spirituality light sort of things, you know, and just kind of like, okay, here there, you know, there's—and that was my only previous experience with the concept of ego and that sort of thing.

Yeah. But it was very surface, you know, it was very light. I never really got into deep more than just using it as a nice thing to read and think about when you're in a bad mental place.

Yeah. Exactly. So the Eastern maybe paradigm of liberation from suffering.

Exactly. Depending on who it is or which kind of strand of teachings it is, some form of losing the sense of self or transcending the self.

Would you say?

Exactly. Got it. Exactly. So I had that seed that never really went anywhere, right? And then from that, you know, fast forward a bunch of years and then this experience with psychedelics and, you know, Buddhism and back to those sort of teachings, right?

Which I knew nothing about really. So, the mystery of both, you know, because the whole psychedelic thing is a mystery.

Sure. And that's one of the things that drew me in, I guess, is like, oh, okay, well wait, you know, it's like this huge unknown territory that's there for your exploration, right? So it kind of draws you in, same as the idea of, well, you know, the other shore, they just release from suffering and all that stuff, right? So to me, in my experience, in my mind at that time, they went together. They were both seeking sort of the same goal.

Mhm. So I, you know, psychedelics, I think I went through the same sort of process that I went through with non-duality, which at some point it just my system just went, "Okay, you know, this is enough. I cannot do this any longer. I'm saturated with it."

Yeah. So I totally dropped it and I was just kind of minding my own business and then, you know, I started seeing these things in my algorithm about different people talking about the end of suffering and release and that sort of thing. So yeah, that's how I got—

Okay. So you started, the algorithm tuned into the fact that you were exploring consciousness and that you had been, I guess, flirting with the Eastern sort of awakening paradigms and presented you with non-dual videos, and a lot of the messaging was like targeting suffering. Like, was it also about discovering truth and things like that, or was it all kind of like this is the ultimate way to end your suffering?

Well, yeah. They were, I guess, what drew me in mostly from YouTube, you know, there were a few very charismatic people talking like with authority, you know, like, this is actually real. Like, it's crazy that you don't know this because this is so obvious, you know. And so you start watching one video then another one, and so there's five people saying the same thing in sort of different ways and pointing to the same direction.

Yeah. And yeah.

right before COVID uh and you know, span that that kind of COVID couple of years. So, yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm 56. So, yeah, I was in my 50s already.

Okay. Um I had all that all that stuff going on. I did have, you know, early on in my life. I did um, you know, I had like a a pretty pretty bad health situation that led to pretty bad depression and

sort of that whole thing. And that led me to read Echerto's uh power of now and all those kind of like the spirituality light sort of things you know and just kind of like okay here there you know there's and and

that had that was my only um previous um experience with uh the concept of ego and that sort of thing.

Yeah. But it was it was very, you know, surface, you know, it was very light. I didn't I never really got into deep into more than than just using it as a like a like a nice thing to read and think

about um you know when you're you know in a bad mental place. Yeah. Exactly. So the eastern maybe paradigm of like liberation from suffering Exactly. be uh depending on who who it is or which kind of strand of teachings it is some form

of losing the sense of self or transcending the self or would you say exactly okay got it exactly so I had that seed that never really went anywhere right and then from that you know fast forward a bunch of years and then this this um

experience with psychedelics uh and you know Buddhism and back to to those sort of uh teachings, right?

Uh which I knew nothing about really. Uh so and so the the the mystery of both, you know, because the whole psychedelic thing is is is, you know, the whole thing is a mystery.

Sure. And and that's one of the things that that grows I guess drew me in is like oh okay well wait you know it's like this huge unknown territory that's there for your exploration right so so it kind of draws you in same as as

the you know the idea of well you know the other shore they just you know release from suffering and all that stuff right so they they yeah to me in my experience in my mind at that time they went

together. They were both seeking sort of the same goal. Mhm. So I, you know, psychedelics, I I I I think I went through the same sort of process that I went through with with non-duality, which at some point it just

my system just went, "Okay, you know, this is this is enough. I this is I I I cannot I can't do this any longer. I I you know I'm I'm saturated with it.

Yeah. So I totally dropped it and I was just you know kind of minding my own business and then you know I started seeing this things on my in the algorithm about you know different people talking about the the end of suffering and release and

and that sort of thing. So yeah that that's how I got Okay. So you started the algorithm tuned into the fact that you were exploring consciousness and that you had been uh I guess flirting with the eastern sort of

awakening paradigms and and presented you with non-dual videos and a lot of the messaging was like targeting suffering like was it also like about discovering truth and things like that or was like the all kind of like this is

the ultimate way to end your suffering or Well yeah the They were I guess what drew me in from mostly from YouTube, you know, there were a few very charismatic people, right?

Uh talking like with like authority, you know, like like they, you know, this is actually real. Like it's it's crazy that you don't you know how people don't know this because this is so obvious you know and and and and so

uh yeah you you start watching one video then another one and so you there's five people saying the same thing in sort of different ways and pointing to the same in the same direction.

Yeah. Um, and yeah, they basically, you know, I mean, they're dangling the the most precious carrot ever in front of you, which is, you know, okay, this was what solve all your problems. This is going to, you know, release you from your ego,

which is torturing you and and so on and so forth. And it's almost, how can you say no to that, you know?

Yeah. sort of like the magic this magic bullet that's sort of just on offer if you wanted and if you listen to the the teachers who claim to have already reached that state right oh yeah and you know at at at my age you know you

sort of see a lot uh and you have to actually suspend your common sense for a file in order to allow these things to pass through your initial filter. Right. So, so, so there's something there. Um, that, uh,

and I'll be totally honest, the, uh, the sort of us, you know, there's people out there who are waking up all the time. And then you know these these people are the you know sort of like um driving the peace you know that that's

going to it's going to um spread throughout the world and all all sort of thing kind of you know you're like man I want to be part of that right group right I like no I don't want to be

part of the other commoners you know who don't get it right right exactly so I That's a little bit of a little bit of a spice uh that that that makes the whole thing also it it helps you suspend that common sense because

it's also attractive in that way. It's like okay I want to be part of right what's like like what other solution is there other than through this magical uh thing that dissolves all suffering.

Yeah, I relate to that completely that there's that almost like messianic sort of vision of, you know, we're we're the ones to usher in the new earth or the new world. Exactly. Of course, that's comes in many different

forms and religions and cults and all sorts of things. And, you know, some of that's can be healthier than other parts, but this this one is uh uh particularly radical in in that it's tied to the disappearance of you

[laughter] um Exactly. and us, right? is it's the total the total destruction of the individual. Um, so I really relate to that being something that calls you and then it starts I feel like that sort of stage that you're describing is kind

of like the depending how you look at it but you're you're you're being um presented with these radical new ideas about your most basic foundational assumptions of reality and those are being questioned and there's something you know shocking about it but also

really exciting about it. And then that whole setting up that little bit of like the us versus them where I notice is when you start to kind of have that break with the rest of humanity in a way

that like there's us versus them. There's the the awakened or the awakening and then the sleep walkers who are trapped. They're trapped in in delusion suffering. And who like you said, who wants to be there? We want to

let's get get in on the prison break. Yeah. So yeah, you I know that you were heavily influenced by the Simply Always Awake channel. So was that sort of like the main one that really pulled you in that

you felt most connected to which was Yeah, actually. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's interesting because I you know that came in early in the in the algorithm and um you know I checked it out and I listen and then

some other ones came in and I I I gravitated more towards a few others initially like you know all the the typical lineup you know RERS Spyra um all these guys the super radical ones that I forget the names But, you know,

they basically don't say anything other than this doesn't exist, you don't exist, and everything else, you know, like there's no not even a dialogue.

It's just like incredibly not happening, crazy, whatever. Uh and um all sorts of characters. Uh there's this uh yeah, a few ladies. Uh I I I forget the names but you know maybe I had a I had a a mix

of or a playlist of probably six or seven speakers the with their own little you know specialty within nonuality but the core message was exactly the same. Uh and I I think when you hear the same script from various different sort of

personalities and uh it starts I think that's one of the things that kind of breaks your defense your your common sense defense because okay wait a minute I mean this person has you know 20,000 followers and this other person has you know all this and

and and and they seem so uh you know so real. So, so that that definitely started breaking down my defenses and um eventually I I started picking off um sort of kings in the armor of some of these

speakers like I like you know something here doesn't and so I I ended up I gravitated back to simply always awake.

Uh, and one of the things that that made me feel uh more uh I guess at ease was that that uh you know this person is a physician and and so so you know there's something about that that you kind of trust

inherently. you say, "Okay, you know, this is not somebody who uh just picked up this because they had nothing better to do in their life and they're just trying to make a a quick buck or something, you know, it's someone who

already has a career and it's a, you know, a health worker." And so there's a c there's like another tier of trust that that I didn't get with anyone else. I see. Yeah.

So, I think that definitely um was a a big draw for me. Got it. And what would if because I I kind of left the whole non-duality world um I think before that channel came onto the scene. So, and I haven't

gone to I'm aware because I hear about it a lot. I hear a lot of um that it's you know reached a lot of people and I get just a very consistent flow of people um reaching out sort of in in

crisis because of what they've been presented with there. But yeah, could you maybe give a little bit of a summary of like what what what is the core of the teachings just for anybody listening who might not know of sort of

like what was the goal that you were there for? What was Yeah. So the I guess the spiritual foundation of that channel is is Buddhism. So that's that's uh his background is is is Buddhism.

And uh you know and and before I I go I just want to say I think um Angelo is a like he truly uh believes that he's helping people and uh you know the other people in his sphere I think they truly believe

they're helping people but um anyways the so so and and it's It's very radical you know because it's basically um the the you know there are stages in this process that are very well defined.

Yeah. And and so he will teach you how to go through these different stages and the end goal is basically the you know there are several different types of realizations.

And so as you progress to this, the the end goal is basically what they call the non-dual realization, which is basically uh you don't exist.

Okay? And nothing uh you know, everything that you see is is really an illusion.

Okay. So it's as extreme as it gets kind of. Yeah, that's that's and so there's no you. And so the there's you know different um like folders or categories of uh you know let's say call them playlists.

Okay. And uh and so one playlist is like whenever you reach this whenever you you go through this this steps uh there's you know hundreds of videos on on non-dual realization.

Mhm. And uh so so if you're there in that channel, that's your goal, right?

Um and everything is pointing towards that. So it's a it's a and I think there's thousands of videos there. I mean, it's just like thousands of videos drilling down.

Um, how to how how is it that you're totally um like you're you're doing this life thing totally wrong, right? And ever and so society and your parents and and all these different things have uh you know made you wrong

and uh everything about who you think you are is just basically a lie or doesn't exist or you know that sort of thing. So so you slowly start to um sort of erase uh different aspects of of your

personality. And that is reinforced by you know the comments in the videos and then um you know meditations and and sort of all these these tools and practices and so so he brings in he interviews people who have been through the process you know

so you hear from people and other um teachers And so it's a big, you know, it's a it's a huge portfolio.

Yeah. It's very systematic. Yeah. Very a huge portfolio with very very uh you know all all sorts of um guidance uh through the process to get you here.

And so that's success for you know within that teaching success is you get to where it you know everything that you sense is is really just the one thing and uh that you're part of and then nothing else really

matters. Got it. So it's really also sort of like the um sort of seeing through the illusion of separateness I would imagine as part 100% that's pretty much just another packaging of what I also experience you know the

non-dual stuff and okay so it's really setting up this new sort of paradigm of reality and so it sounds like you know what I went through as well is that whole sort of like everything that you believe to be true

is actually kind of like one big hoax or one big kind of lie. It's all false and you need to see the truth. And so, you know, what I've come to understand about all of it, having been through it, um, is really

just that whole sort of like the tying together and the fusing of the realization of what's being told is the truth with salvation from suffering. So, like this is the truth that sets you free, right? that like um

that discovering and they might say abiding in the realization that there is no you world is an illusion is not only the ultimate truth that you're going to you're here to discover for yourself as is said but it's also the pinnacle of well-being and

the ultimate in sort of like evolution or of course because it's it's the supposedly the disappearance of suffering but so that those two are really tied together and I I it's It's as you you've said before it's like kind

of um you know that's such a powerful such a powerful calling you know the truth that's going to set you free in this case it comes with self eraser and so he's kind of leading you to that and

and presents himself as my understanding is and it's good that you said earlier what you said because I think that in approaching this conversation I think it's really important that you know when we talk about this channel and this

specific teacher it's in no way singling this one out [clears throat] because it's just one manifestation of thousands of these individuals and channels that are are saying the same thing. This one happens to be one that's quite high-profile, quite prominent, amass a

lot of following. So, something is is working really well there to get people. Yeah.

And because there's such an increasing volume of reports of people in crisis and mental health collapse and dysfunction from this specific channel that it's it's it feels important. the we can't really ignore it.

I agree. I agree. And I I I I truly believe that he that he wants to help people like this is not so and I think that's part of the appeal because he he comes across as very sincere and and honest in his you know

he really believes you know the Kool-Aid. I mean he really so it's not it's you know because they are out there you see a lot of people who you can tell they're just doing this because they want to feel important and

they want to have a following you know kind of narcissistic sort of thing you know there's plenty of of those out there u I think uh I think Angela really believes that that you know he's uh doing good and uh that's what makes

dangerous because um you know I you know I throughout my life I I I think I had a pretty good uh uh you know nose for for BS.

Uh and and and this you know broke through all my my defenses. I know what you mean.

Yeah. So, so there's some powerful stuff very powerful and and and in in in the messaging uh it's not only all the things that you mentioned just now, you know, the salvation the but it's it's like your your true self,

right? like you don't you you don't know who you really really are unless you and that is just like what you know.

Yes. Yes. And of course I mean we've all you know I'm as flawed as as the next guy and you know we all messed up you know so many times in our lives and we felt all these different emotional ups and

downs etc. So when you uh open the door to to that message and then they they just keep drilling that um uh true self sort of Mhm. uh thing then uh once that takes root in in you uh if

you have the sort of personality like I you know I have a very driven personality where if I decide to do something I mean there's no stopping me I'm just going to figure out a way but I'm gonna

you know I'm going to do my best you know if I have to wake up early or work for 20 hours a day, I'm just going to go for it because I want to reach whatever goal I set out,

you know? Right. So, I think if you have that sort of personality like like like like me and you're presented with this sort of setup, uh, then if once you get going, you're just going to, you know, swallow the whole

thing and keep going until you basically uh, harm yourself. So, sorry, go ahead. cut you off. I was to say maybe that's a good pivot way to what did you actually experience like what shifts did you have because you know I think we both talked

about the fact that it's not we're also not saying that there's no positive elements to any of the experiences that you have you can have profound experiences feelings of relief or people experience you know I I experienced profound peace and bliss and

a lot of those things at least mostly a lot of that in the But so at Mundy you could maybe you could talk about what was the actual impact that you started seeing as you were following these steps to the self

eraser project if you will. Sure. Yeah. So I I've always been like a a good student in the sense like I'm the student that all teachers want to have like you know you give me homework I'm going just gonna

I'm going to prepare for the next class and I'm just going to so I think I was like a good student to this process. So I I I I went I was very earnest and I did go through the the you know

the different shifts and uh realizations and and I did uh have a that that honeymoon period which was you know absolute bliss uh just blissing out um feeling just a spontaneously be crying at any moment during the day just because of the love

you feel you know it's just like wonderful wonderful uh connection uh so you know that all that stuff is is is real I mean it's true and I think that if uh you are able to kind of see this this this whole thing as a just

as a a one element you know to to consider in your life you know with not with it not taking over your whole experience but you know it then it's a it's an amazing it's a wonderful thing because it is one aspect

of you know that you can experience but that's all it is right it's just it's just one one way that you could perceive reality rather than necessarily this is the ultimate way.

Exactly. But then as you progress then you start pushing uh cuz you know they tell you okay you know once you have the the no self uh uh realization and and uh then you know time kind of collapses

and you sort of selfinduce all these things because because I had I went through okay yeah really okay time so I felt the confusion and you know and um and then you know objects really don't exist and then you you kind of

self-induse again and you yeah really you know it's just this thing and and of course the other and um so has you're you know sliding further into this you know world of seeking bliss all the time and And uh the the the really

nasty part which is whenever that bliss is not experienced then you're chiding your thoughts.

Yeah. Because there the there's this this this just just really horrible thing that's gets in between you and and the next carrot dangly. Right.

Yeah. So I was uh in a constant um fighting stance against every single thought that that went through and I was like like stop but you know just [snorts] so much energy spent in into this sort of uh and it's amazing that you can the

it's almost like like they they hack into your emotional operating system and and it's like a like a virus that that gets hacked in there and then it just starts unleashing by itself uh and because it it's categorizing every single thought as not

welcome. So you can imagine that conflict continuously and and the stress that that brings along you know and so you just basically as as you experience this is the um kind of two sides of the same coin sort

of thing where the more bliss you you experience the more uh detached from what's you know what's actually the reality of your relationships and your career or your other things that sustain your life. Mhm.

Uh so it's almost like a it's alo almost like a it's a very costly bliss.

Very expensive. Well said. Very very very expensive bliss. Uh and you're not real you don't you're not realizing that cost because that that emotional operating system has been completely whacked out of uh what it's supposed to be. So you're

actually cherishing the fact that you don't care about your financial situation anymore. That's a success, right?

That's a success, right? So, it's completely inverted inversion. Uh and uh you know you you really it's almost like uh there's a critical uh mass critical point in the process where uh the eraser of your personality is a

self- sustaining sort of feedback loop that's almost you're not consciously doing anything. It's just kind of perpetuating it uh because of these habits and things that that that you've been taught to you're sustaining right like a way of

exactly perceiving that's scrubbed of you in a way. Yeah. So almost as as your personality or relationships or anything like that kind of try to reach out and and grab you again. There's almost a an automatic response where it kind of just

pushes them out. Yeah. Uh so you're conditioned, you know, you're conditioned to self-destruct. I like basically what it is. I like that you say condition because I think there's a a strong illusion that it's all about deconditioning and destroying

conditioning, but what you don't see is that it's actually, you know, maybe you'd say it's often in a hidden way, even though when you look back on it, it feels obvious that you're being really conditioned and programming in a whole

new way of relating to things that's, you know, its own form of of conditioning. Um, when you what would you say was like I relate to everything you're saying. It reminds me of my process and since that you were you had

a family and you were married and you had a career. So, like what what changed there in the ways that you related to to family and to work? And were you able to just keep up the appearances of Robert

and kind of go through the motions even though you felt like it wasn't really real or did it start to be sort of like, oh, I can't do this anymore? Like, what was that like?

It was very conflictive. Uh it uh it wasn't one thing throughout it. It it it eb and flowed. Uh so there were moments where I felt incredibly close to people and uh but but it was a closeness that

is not helpful. It was a closeness. It was like a spiritual sort of more like a conceptual closeness, but it was a it wasn't a closeness that's helpful to the people you're in relationship with.

Interesting. you know so um it was a uh it's like your own children become as you know equally important as a flower or something like that.

Yeah. So everything is everything is like sort of quote unquote elevated to oneness and and so everything gets deluded into this sort of ethereal oneness sort of you know not two one whatever.

So the so well for for years you know when I was in the in the deep end of this thing I stopped caring about my my professional life you know and uh and I wasn't there uh in a

human you know real relationship sort of partner way uh you know No one likes to be preached about, you know, like being talked to uh from a spiritual sort of way. You know, people just want to be real.

Mhm. So, uh I guess you can easily come across as a petuluate [ __ ] who's just, you know, speaking all kinds of [ __ ] spiritual new age things and that's going to push people away and then you don't care because

you're, you know, in the enlightened sort of group of right uh people so you're awake whatever you know you're you're you're so much more advanced.

Oh yeah. And that's going to absolutely 100% cause stress in in in your relationships.

Yeah. So to me creativity would you know I've always been a very creative person u creativity was totally you know dead uh um you know the sense of agency like whatever you know things are just going to happen whatever happens happens

you know um the drive motivation Yeah, motivation was like, you know, I was happy just gardening, just tending my garden and just being one with the bees and the flowers and s that sort of thing.

Yeah. And everything else was kind of uh put on on hold and limbo. Yeah.

Uh so if you if you do that long enough, you're going to your life is going to is going to be upside down really fast.

And people are not, you know, people are going to uh stay away from you, right? Like it's going to have an impact on on other 100%. 100% you have family and 100% abilities in the world.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to just just uh make a caveat really quick. you know, I I you know, I'm not a psychologist.

I'm not a philosopher. I don't know much about religion or uh and I know that these psychological um conversations uh you know can have an impact on on on people. So I'm not qualified to like whatever I'm saying here is only based

on my experience. I don't know, you know, I don't know. I am so respectful and and almost fearful of giving people emotional or psychological sort of guidance because that's something that I feel is very individual.

Totally. And uh and you know, you don't know where people are at any any given point.

song like, you know, I I'm just a a regular guy uh who allowed his common sense to be tempted down and then regained it.

Yeah. And sort of, you know, that's the way I I I see it in myself. you know, I'm not um and I uh there are things from that experience like I um I was angry with myself for a while,

you know, after I came out of all that that that experience and that settled down and now I see. Okay. Yeah.

I uh I see that it was part of a necessary growth that I had to go through.

Yeah. And now it's made me what I am today, which is I think it's better.

That's amazing. Than before, you know, than before it all started because now you have, you know, this new perspective and this new experience. And so yeah, you you climbed that that that sort of mountain and and you know, you kind of

reached as high as you could go and you took a look and you say, "Okay, let's just come down, right?

Keep going." And you take with you that experience. So maybe maybe we'll head to I love your the way that you've you shared one time with me the experience that you had at the retreat. So, I don't know if that feels like the next natural

progression into like Yeah, sure. You kind of had this shift or if there's maybe more to say about the the ways that the um like that the because you've described, you know, some positive impacts and then also some not so

positive impacts. Maybe if you want to say anything like leading up to that retreat or what what was what called you to the retreat and then if you want to share what happened there because I basically I was going to ask you like

when did you start to notice that something wasn't quite right or that maybe this wasn't the be all end all for you or maybe it wasn't healthy or whatever like so however you want to approach that.

Yeah. So I think in the months leading to the retreat I started to have some doubts and you know there's a a lag time so it's a a few months I don't remember four five six months between when you sign up and when

the thing actually happens and uh I uh when I signed up um I was uh in a um sort of uh time when I I I had I had doubts. I I I started feeling uh my faith in the

process a little shaky. So out of and there's something that that Angelo always you know says is um you know you can you can drop this anytime you know but uh be careful because you know it's not a it's not a good thing you know so so

there's always very subtle kind of warnings about don't don't abandon this right it can it can be something that you don't want to go through and sort of that sort of thing. So, uh I guess my um motivation to sign up

was okay, this is really going to um take me all the way and kind of help me bypass all these doubts that I have about the process. I want to just like really okay this is because this is an intensive thing and I just

want to you know really get to that okay that that final sort of over the finish line kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I so I when I when as time like as the the date approached um I was actually I felt pretty numb like I didn't have um I guess I was sort of looking back I

was sort um ignoring or repressing or not wanting to deal with thinking too much about about it. I you know I said I told myself I just go just show up and see what what happens.

Right. So I went and um this was a month-long retreat. Oh, I didn't remember that part. It's long.

Yeah. So, I said, you know, I said, so I was like, I said, okay, I am going to commit and this is this is it, right? I'm going to not coming back from Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

And um one of the the first thing that uh when I arrived uh one night, one of the co- um teachers there uh sort of um greeted me and guided me to my to the room and so on.

I felt this super nervous uh sort of energy in that person like stressed out that it was completely opposite that the person that I had seen on videos and conversations and and that sort of thing. So I was okay well it's

weird. It's just a really weird thing. And then as the the days went on, uh I mean I was super um happy and and I had a lot of joy because it was a beautiful natural place and I love nature and

being out there. So I was just in awe like this is such a beautiful place.

Mhm. And I really I noticed really quickly that uh just the collective mood was very heavy and uh um you know there was no eye contact uh to be had uh no speaking as a rule, right?

As a rule. Yeah. Yeah, cuz really basically they wanted you to uh like focus 100% on um like realizing that you're you're not there and other people are not there. Basically just focus on your thoughts, your process and

get rid of whatever is happening uh you know up there and this is the first so you know when you are going through this process by yourself you sort of have a you imagine the other people that watch these videos or

you know comment on there that you just sort of think they're they're like you that in the sense that I mean like this this retreat it was a a mirror uh for myself that was very shocking because I I just sensed the the the the

mood you know very heavy people didn't smile everybody was kind of looking down and um Uh and then the the first session of Q&A where people came up and said whatever they wanted to say. That really shook me to my to the core

because the stories that that people were talking about there were just so um I mean so sad and deeply uh gosh I don't I don't even know how to describe it. just uh so much pain and confusion.

Yeah. But it wasn't a normal sort of like everyday sort of thing. It was like they were so deep in this labyrinth uh that they were just lost in in the maze, you know. They just, you know, it was

person after person after person just in in their own ways, but to me it was basically the same sort of common denominator. It's like somebody kind of guided you into the very depths of a cave and then they dropped you there and took

the the lantern with them and you're just trying to figure out. So well said, what the heck? And then the the you know the teachers there were just kept reinforcing like every time somebody says something like that well

you need to meditate more you need to kind of drill more and more and more into it and I was just almost like really you know uh so I guess by the time I I sat there I was already

sort of primed. Um, and I I I felt really really sad for a lot of the people who were there who this was their this was my first time with some of them and some of the the more more some of the more uh

uh distressed ones. you know, this was their 10th or their 12th. Uh, and and and they wore that as a as a badge of honor sort of thing, you know.

Um, and so I I basically started skipping Oh, wow. the the meditations and stuff like that and started just going out and walking around nature and things like that. I just felt like I I needed room to breathe

and you know during meal times and things like that I started just trying to make eye contact with people and um about the I I think it was the third night or it was before the the first week like

during that first week one night uh I couldn't fall asleep and so my mind was racing and um and there was a moment where my system just said stop this is as far as you go this is you have to stop now and then a

decision was made okay this is not this is not good. This is [clears throat] you know and it was um almost like the whole movie of this past few years just flashed before my eyes and then I saw through I saw through

everything. I just could see through everything and and I I and I I I my mind couldn't jive the fact that I was at this amazing beautiful um you know forest sort of thing and at the same time in this room with this

like what is this trying to achieve? This is not good. This is almost like a like a black hole in the middle of this beautiful thing, you know.

And at that moment, I knew, okay, I'm gone. Like I So I decided to stay a few more days, but I was checked out mentally.

So, I um started uh doing everything that you're not supposed to do. I started holding people people's hands and oh gosh, you know, smiling at people and making eye contact. And they were just loving it, you know, like they needed so much

that that sort of uh uh kind of human connection, normal human social sort of thing.

They're denying that your social nature was just like embedded in us, you know. like really I mean it's you know I don't know much about science but I think science has explained that if you isolate primates from their

you know other primates they they they die or they starve or they get disease and things like that I don't like it's natural this w being wired for connection yeah so when you yeah that that when you sever that when you when you

like my system couldn't take that. Yeah. So, yeah. So, that's that's that's when I and I just didn't want to, you know, cause a scene or anything like that. So, I went and I talked to the people. I said, "Listen, you know, I

think the map has, you know, done its work. I'm just going to lay the map here with you guys.

Yeah. I [clears throat] just want to walk the territory. I didn't want to look at the I want to look at your map any longer. I just want to just go out and do my own thing.

Uh and they were, you know, they were fine. Yeah. They say, you know, Angelo hadn't arrived there cuz he was going to come for the second week. And they say, all they said was, you know, wait because once Angelo comes, you know,

there's fireworks and everybody gets and and that made me think, wow. And really this is this is not a good thing. This is like the cult of personality where you know okay the the guru is going to come and make

everything but the guru had come 10 five times you know all these people had been they've been there 10 times and they're still lost.

Yeah. So there there were some big big crisis. I mean you see cases there. It was like it was like a case study in mental distress.

Yeah, it was very scary. Exactly what you mean. Exactly what you mean. Yeah. It's really an eyeopening moment that you had there.

Very much so. Yeah. Yeah. And what strikes me a lot in what you share is just that that sense that you know a lot of those people who are suffering so much just that tying it back to that that

whole sort of um teaching that's embedded that like this is the only way out for you and you know be careful not to do anything else now like this is it for you and so almost taking off the

table anything else and then also thinking about how I mean that in itself can be a trap because what if it isn't working and it's actually making you worse then you're sort of being held there or being um deinccentivized to or incentivized to

to to not try something else that that could be better for you and maybe even save some people's lives. But but just the way that um you know that sometimes uh those teachings are are not the solution and unfortunately I see it

being painted as this the only solution um where it can actually exacerbate a lot of those intense issues because what's happening is people are being so radically ungrounded and having their life their connection to humanity and reality severed and they're already in

those really kind of fragile states to then rip all the ground out from under you it can be really really dangerous and we see that happening with a lot of people that are reporting what's happening and I think I when I mentioned

it to you you didn't sound surprised that I've heard a lot of people saying that they're suicidal in in these stages or that they become suicidal people writing to me that you know they they have loved ones who did take their lives

once they kind of go really deep into these these sorts of teachings and and find themselves so ungrounded and disconnected and confused and or dissociated or whatever. [snorts] Yeah. And what's so dangerous is that they they have an answer to every you

know because it's it can do no wrong basically. Yeah. The way it's structured is basically it's infallible. Right.

Right. that. So, anything that you can bring up about they say, well, it's, you know, uh there's there's really no flaw in this, right?

Because, you know, nothing. Yeah, exactly. It's your your your your ego is, you know, and and so that drives people deeper and deeper into uh into that cave. Yeah.

And um the it's also the delivery is very um not only is you know scarmatic but it's also very empathic right. It's very subtle and it's very um it's very convincing.

So, so every time your um sort of your common sense tries to break through, there's always an answer that that that's totally uh possible from from that point of view.

Yep. So it makes it really hard to uh shake it off very and and yeah I the some of the um sort of uh things that people said there uh had so much despair into it that I would that I I'm not surprised people

get to the point where they just uh you know, want to want to end it because um if it if if it has reached deep enough into your emotional operating system, like you you're going to see no way out of that,

right? It can be like maddening and that like well can't go back to life or my family or my friends now because none of it's real and you know now I've seen through it but I'm also can't kill this

thing that's supposed to die or what have you that you mean you're really locking somebody into a quite a radical crisis that can seem like you know yeah why keep that's yeah that's the real real uh like actual true danger.

uh here is like maybe you know out of the thousands of people you know not everybody's going to but but as that number keeps growing you know if they get to 100,000 subscribers or so on you know the the

number that's trailing of people who are uh more susceptible to getting totally lost in there is also going to grow.

Sure. So, so, so you're going to have a big number of people. Yeah. In deep psychological despair and it doesn't always resolve itself in a positive way. Unfortunately, I think if you know, one of the things that like the stuff we're talking about

now really strikes me as because I, you know, I started learning about things that are like cult dynamics and authoritarianism is that this this sort of like dynamic of like a a closed system where the teachings are you can't you're not allowed to reflect

on the teachings or question them. And you because any questioning of them I I don't remember where I read this but I thought it was really well said was that like you can't question the only way that you

could really get out of it would be to reflect on it and question it but any questioning of it is positioned as a deficiency of you like it's all put back onto you as a a flaw in your thinking.

So, you know, even the tool of of rationality or or intellectual inquiry is is basically um delegitimized.

[clears throat] So yeah any questioning of it would just be more evidence that you're asleep or that you're lost in delusion or so, as you said yourself, you know, how maddening that that looping can become. But, you know, I don't it's one thing to say, you

know, this is a pathway for any of these teachers or communities. There's such a big difference between more of an open system that would say this is one way of experiencing reality that has been helpful for me. It reduced suffering and

has for some other people. It may be for you. You can try it. But total respect for those folks who decide they don't want this anymore because other ways of living are also valid and are also respectful. And you know what? Maybe

this really radically ungrounding thing is not for everyone. And that's okay too because other ways of living are also beautiful and good and you know again so I I see that's where you really get into the waters of kind of like the dogma and

the cultlike stuff and the things that get really into sort of like the the mental traps where you're really being told you know you can't leave or if you do your fear is really strongly manipulated that if I leave this I'm

betraying reality the truth I'm going to suffer forever rather than it being an open doorway you know or open to reflection or other perspectives but that is not that's not allowed there or yeah I mean they may they may suggest it

here and there but it's a very you know underhanded sort of thing where yeah but you know be careful uh that sort of thing right so um and it's it's like like I said you know at some point you get to a critical point where

it's that that that hack uh is um is self-fulfilling. Like if you if you do nothing, it's just going to it's just going to keep eroding your your your common sense and and who you are until until you know something's got to give.

Yeah. And you know because it cannot uh you can't really I don't see how you can of course they say you know there's there's lots of people who get there and you know they're fine and etc and so on and

so forth. Um, I don't think that's possible honestly. Like I don't know, you know, I'm not a psychologist, but I I don't I don't think you can sustain a like a dissociative sort of existence and and uh still be

functional uh in a meaningful way for a long time. I just don't see it.

Something's got to give. I mean, you're going to lose something. eventually. Sure. Yeah. And then there's the question of, you know, if you could live in that state forever, would that actually be the ideal that we maybe once

thought it was or that it Exactly. Exactly. So, you're it's just like it's like a a life like if if someone is, you know, unfortunate enough to get a you know, it's like a life sentence basically. It's like you're a

prisoner. Yeah. Uh and they've blocked all all the escape routes. So yeah, exactly. And and the the the thing is that once you've been there and then you sort of regain uh you know you start regaining your your

sense of agency and and your connections you know real connections with real people and so on so forth.

Um, what you discover is this that like it just seems more and more ridiculous like the whole premise.

I know. It just seems like so totally crazy and ridiculous. Yeah. And you're like guided. It's like really did I actually you know uh because you know they talk about you know the richness of um experiencing life without the

um the experiencer or the the self or whatever or the me and so on and so forth.

And once like having been through that and being here now like normally this is so much richer. I'm sorry Angelo. I'm sorry Robert and all of you.

You know I'm sure that you're all great people but you'll have to excuse me experiencing this as Robert. You know, the guy who was born my dad and mom and that who loves coffee and match and cats and dogs and has all

kinds of flaws. Uh like experiencing this through me and beautiful, wonderful, you know, [ __ ] up at times. Me is so much richer. I'm sorry. You're wrong.

You're wrong. No, this is way more rich. way more rich uh than anything you preach or say in your chats.

I came to that same conclusion because in one sense you know when I think of richness I think of multi-dimensionality and you know what was happening there was a stripping away of dimensions of my humanity that were no longer part of the

experience and there was a hyperfocus on you know a dimension of sensation or spaciousness or whatever. So that took on a richness, but in the overall view because it excluded so many dimensions ultimately for me that's you know by

itself is is kind of a definition of of losing richness if you're if you're losing access to multi-dimensionality.

So to bring it back in maybe keeping those other dimensions but bringing back in everything so they're all included then it's wow right like the richness of all of it to be there and so I I I really connect with you on that. So

maybe you could say a little bit more about what your journey's been like since you left the retreat. And it sounds like when you left that retreat, you left that whole path of self eraser behind. So what did it look like coming

back to to you and your life and ice cream as you imagine? A lot of ice.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so you know, I don't know. I I imagine like this is like somebody telling you, you know, okay, think of the the the treat that that that you love the most, you know, like say it's chocolate and it

because it's so good, etc. And and then they're feeding you chocolate three times a day continuously. Yeah, okay.

It's rich. It's wonderful. But, you know, maybe I want peanut butter or something, you know, more than one taste.

So, so yeah, I mean, it's is it's beautiful and rich and wonderful, but hey, there's more more than that, right?

So, uh [clears throat] is a it was a there was a absolute clear break away like okay this is no I'm never ever uh going back to this and uh Um it was confusing at the beginning.

Um and there was even though that like I was absolutely I saw through the whole thing uh all the way through.

I still had doubts cuz this was deep deep in there. I mean it was so so it was a process of you know again e and flow. It was some good times and and then doubts and then you know uh

some um sleepless nights of you know what's going to happen if like am I is this really what I need to do?

So, so that went on for a while, but didn't take long before the richness and the reconnection uh with with you know my personality and um you know that sense of agency of taking control back because you you

have to remember you give away your agency like you hand it over. Yeah. There's like there's no control of anything. You don't control anything because there's no you to control anything. That's a big I mean that's a huge thing

to change and it's it's huge to to give it away and it's huge to gain it back.

Yeah. Exactly. Right. So you when you gain that back, it's like what man like this is good.

This is good. Really good. Um so just the reacquainting or um exploring each of my relationships as me again and offering them me like the dad or the the husband or the friend or you know brother.

It just felt it's it was such a such a beauty to connect with another human being as you are that it's like it it like it made the whole non-dual thing so small and tiny and insignificant, you know?

It's like I just I don't need I don't need you. like like I don't need your your dogman, your blah blah blah and just like this is so rich right here, you know, like just um uh having likes and dislikes and opinions.

Embracing that. Yeah. And like being free to get pissed off, you know, and not second guess. Wait. Oh my god. I shouldn't you know this thought is so you know so not me and so on no of course I want to get this stuff you

know uh this you know or or or super happy or um so it's so I have that to be grateful for this this kind of rabbi hole that that swallowed me for a few years and because to me

being able to say me mine, you know, Robert, yes, this is here. I have memories. I have um I have uh good thoughts, bad thoughts, opinions, and they're all fine. And it's fine because whoever made this possible, whatever you want to

call it, universe, God, anything, anything you like. But like how silly is it to have this equipment, right?

and say, "Oh, you know, this I shouldn't use this." Like for the whatever many years I have with this equipment, I'm going to use it and I'm going to love it, you know, and it's here for a reason. And then

whatever comes next, we'll we'll figure it out. I don't know. We'll see, right? But how silly is it that that that we believe someone telling you that that none of this exists? Then why why are we here like this? Right? Why do we have

this this um this hormones and and this thing where you where you know you feel the skin of somebody else and it's just gives you this warmth and wonderful feeling of you know love and yeah relationship right like

why would be why would the big thing give you this and then say, "Oh, but it's not really real. It's just, you know, uh you know, this this whole thing that this this this ability of remembering things and

putting things into perspective and uh having uh lies and dislikes, you know, you're capable of all that, but don't use it really because you know Yeah. Because it's all just a curse or Yeah. Come on.

No, there sounds like you you came to a point of like um just seeing a lot of so much of the stuff that gets rejected on on those negation pathways as really as gifts and as the blessings along with

the curse. Like it it just feels so much like this embrace of the bittersweet of like no this isn't we don't need to escape all of this but that you kind of immersed yourself in it in a new way. And that's what I I think

is one of the most beautiful things that I've seen in this journey with people that have gone through a process of you know the whole dissolution path and losing their sense of self and reality to then coming back to it or it comes

back to you. you return to it and it's almost like reality comes back but like times 10 or times 100 like the preciousness is like turned up because it's like oh yeah oh my god to see the like the beauty and

the value in things in seeing things as real and as um as uh as a value and significant I think it's like this feeling of that it's significant that relationships are significant that 100% you know literature and everything

stories And you know uh just the uh the the capac like if you have people in your life one person two people whatever it is uh you know there's so much depth in in in that that if you if you offer like if you

know being there as a friend to somebody that that that that I I can't describe how wonderful and beautiful that can be.

Yeah. Or having someone who's offered their friendship to you is is I mean living life without that don't do it.

Don't go down that that you know that it's it it's um it's not worth it. Like if you're in the middle of that, uh my message to you is to uh take a break and explore your relationships and not not not only

what people can offer you, just what you can offer people. Like put yourself out there and uh listen as a true friend. And if somebody is uh you know angry at something or or frustrated, don't be a spiritual

being and just, you know, be there and and get frustrated with them and be human, you know, and listen to them in a in a human kind of way and offer because they're going to want you the whole package like like your friends,

not Jessica, the Jessica they know, like the Jessica who went through all the things you went through in childhood and, you know, early adulthood [clears throat] and all that stuff. And that's what people love about you.

That's what makes us relatable to others. Exactly. And that's what people want to uh that's what pe that's who people want to share moments with. They want to share moments with the Jessica that has been through all the things you've been

through. They don't want a sort of holier than thou generic sort of ethereal being just from the heavens that that you know uh it's like so if if you and I was willing to give that up.

Yeah. That's how deeply hacked uh my system was. So that's a real real real danger.

Yeah. What would you say to those folks who maybe feel and I I know we've talked about it before, but I think you have some really good insights here. It's like if it feels like, you know what, I

I I want to I don't want to be self-abandoning anymore, but I've you know, I've lived sort of my sense of self feels like it's died or it's gone, and I don't know how to be a person again because I've been living as if I'm

not a person for so long. How do how can I feel real again? You know, some people are really stuck in that. And I know it's not to say that, you know, whatever you share is the only advice for anybody,

but having been through it, like I know that you mentioned a lot of like really immersing yourself again in relationships and family and going to get ice cream a lot and stuff, but like what feel real again?

Yeah. Well, in what helped me is that I sort of um I I made a decision of uh kind of reclaiming the personality, my my personality and just like you can start small, right? Um and and and doing like deliberate

deliberate things like uh if before you liked you know watching or reading uh sci-fi movies or scary movies or you liked um is any anything that you denied yourself because it seemed so uh uh non-enlightened.

Yeah unspiritual you know, unspiritual. Just sort of, you know, make a little list, you know, on a piece of paper and just um you'll find that as you start um reclaiming those um habits and allowing yourself to feel

things without second-guessing. that will grow uh and grow and grow and you something inside will kind of click and feel like it's almost as if uh you know you stopped watering a plant and now you start watering again and you

know it'll start coming back into life and um yeah and you you it's like something was starving and you started nourishing it again and so it you will get a you will get feedback from that. So don't be afraid

to feed it and don't be afraid to get angry to feel emotions just you know it's fine man it's it's fine it's life is not monotone it's um so there's a lot to grab on to if you remember

um the things that you loved uh or actually or also the things that you dislike and you just anything that that uh that you deny before just welcome it. Just welcome it and and don't be afraid to be flawed.

Yeah, just don't be afraid to be flawed. Just it's fine. People will still love you because we're all flawed.

And um I the grace like people will surprise you in a good way if you if you open up to them.

Yeah. You'll be surprised uh how graceful and forgiving people are if you give them the chance. So if you go to people and say, "Man, I'm sorry I was absent. I was, you know, uh I'm sure many people welcome you back

and give you their support." And so so yeah, I'm really enjoying my relationships. Every one of them I'm like, and then my my businesses, you know, they they started going down. Now they're like thriving again.

you know, working on new projects and I'm excited and then everybody's pumped and uh uh I mean everything just kind of everything was sort of stalling and kind of declining.

Yeah. And now everything is just like you know all fired up and things are looking amazing and things are happening and projects are getting done and people are happy and uh all sort of things and um and it's all beautiful.

I'm celebrating celebrating that with you for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It feels a lot like um I don't know the metaphor of like a a garden or like a a flower or a plant or something blooming feels really like

kind of what you're pointing to. That's like yourself may have withered because those teachings are about either ripping up the flower of you or letting it wither and die. It sounds like what you're pointing to is what I've also

seen is that for some people it may have withered more than others, but it will you will bloom again and you can and your life can bloom again and it may take longer for some people than others, but it's a process of nurturing those

seeds of self again and watering them and and being patient too. I guess it's probably Yes, be patient. You'll get there.

You'll get there. I mean yeah there this this this this thing is very damaging and you know the whole psychological um realm is is very complex. So some people will have more um complex issues than others.

Yeah. Um, but that's that's why your work is so wonderful and you're such a wonderful human being that you offer support to all those people because you went through it. So, so uh see that's that's it's just it's just offering

yourself to people. Yeah. Who you know and and we'll we'll all be okay. So that's why groups like yours are so amazing because in moments of doubts you validated the common sense that was sort of trying to sprout through you know and

actually take root. So to me it was like actually really powerful. I'm so happy finding finding your your uh your work because you know that that's like a almost like you know when an aircraft is trying to take off there's a very

critical moment where you actually need the correct speed otherwise kind of sto yeah so yeah it's like escape velocity right yeah that makes sense that's what I I I I like about the the group that's that I do on Sundays that you've come to

sometimes is that it's, you know, so much of it is really, I think, just validation, you know, like I'm not the only one and, you know, I'm not, it's not a mistake to question and it's okay to rembrace the self and it's possible

to rebuild yourself from scratch. Um, yeah. And uh, yeah, just to know that, you know, that there's others that are doing it with you. And I think just having like um you know cuz so much of what you

share especially like from that retreat is like seeing people feeling like there's no exit. There's no there's no what do you call it? um is it the off-ramp if one wants it because some people don't want an off-ramp and it's

of course not everybody is going to come to the same conclusion that it wasn't for them but a lot of us do and we need an off-ramp and we need other people there who are celebrating that with us

as a positive step rather than like a don't come back you know and so um it feels it feels like a really beautiful way to do that is just to to be together with other people that have been through

it and are going through the challenges of of rebuilding themselves in their lives. And you've added a lot a lot to that. And I'm I'm so super grateful to you for for sharing all of it with like so much

vulnerability and rawness and beautiful beautiful descriptions as well. And I also just feel like such a I always feel this this soaring heart feeling of like when people kind of you know return to their humanity in this more vivid

precious way after after going through all of that. It just feels so such a testament to I don't know the resilience of the human spirit if you will.

Yeah. To go through that to come back even more more alive. So yeah, good point.

Yeah, for for those listening or watching to this you know you are beautiful but not that you non do all you the you real you with all you you know all your includes the individual you includes everything includes everything

that and this just don't yeah everything everything included I like that everything included is there anything else that feels meaningful or important for you to say or share that would make this feel more rounded out or no to thank you to

um you know I've will always be grateful for founding having found you oh and your work you and uh you make a difference so I I hope more people as do you my And