Speaker A
Maybe a narcissistic relationship is just basically like having a relationship with a podcast. In the past few months, for a variety of reasons, I've had to spend quite a bit more time with more narcissistic folks than usual.
Dr. Ramani explains why narcissists struggle with real conversations, highlighting their self-centered communication and lack of genuine interest in others.
Key Takeaways
- Narcissists do not engage in genuine conversations; they primarily talk about themselves.
- They lack empathy and interest in others’ feelings or experiences.
- Conversations with narcissists are often one-sided and emotionally draining.
- Narcissistic communication serves to dominate and control rather than connect.
- Recognizing these patterns can help individuals set boundaries and protect their emotional well-being.
Summary
- Narcissistic relationships often feel one-sided, like talking to a podcast rather than having a real conversation.
- Despite seeming socially skilled, narcissists rarely engage in true back-and-forth dialogue or show interest in others.
- Conversations with narcissists focus on their needs, observations, and complaints, with little to no follow-up on others' experiences.
- Narcissists treat others like chatbots, asking questions only to redirect the conversation back to themselves.
- Their commentary is often negative, filled with grievances about mundane topics without genuine engagement.
- Attempts to share personal experiences or feelings are usually ignored or dismissed.
- Narcissistic conversations lack empathy and mutual exchange, leading to feelings of frustration and emotional depletion.
- The dynamic often involves narcissists dominating and controlling the interaction rather than connecting.
- This one-sidedness can cause those involved to feel something is wrong with them or that the relationship is soul-sapping.
- Dr. Ramani illustrates these points with personal anecdotes and observations from recent interactions.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction: Narcissistic Relationships as One-Sided
- 00:59Narcissists Lack Real Conversations
- 01:52Contrast with Genuine Conversations
- 02:54Narcissists’ Self-Focused Talk
- 03:31Lack of Empathy and Follow-Up
- 04:29Experimenting with Narcissistic Interactions
- 05:35Narcissists’ Negative Observations
- 06:46Emotional Impact and Final Thoughts
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
I sincerely hope they are not watching this, but if they are, look inward. Some are people I know.
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Some were strangers. If I have to go through these interactions, I'm not going to let the moment pass. So, I figured I may as well pay attention and learn more, right? Let the suffering have a point.
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I noticed something, and maybe because I'm doing so much of it all at once, I'm surprised I didn't notice it as viscerally as before. It's one thing to study it, see it in patients. It's quite a bit different to really be actively
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living it, and some of you may be thinking, I'm going to—Some of you may be thinking that I'm late to the party of recognizing this.
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What I've noticed is that for how much we think they're socially skilled, narcissistic people don't really have conversations.
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I learned this pointedly because I recently went very quickly from talking to a very narcissistic person to a sweet and lovely and interesting person very quickly one day, one conversation to the next.
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With the sweet, lovely, interesting person, I would say something. They would respond to the thing I said.
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Maybe ask a follow-up question. Be interested in it. React to it. Sometimes it was relevant to something that was happening in their life.
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But the thing I brought up linked into what they were saying, right? So, I knew they heard me. Okay? And then when they would bring up something, same thing, normal. The conversation flowed. We would laugh. They would listen. I would
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listen. They would talk. I would talk. I learned about them. They learned about me. And at the end of the experience, I'd say it was gratifying. It was nice. It filled my soul. It was like eating a satisfying meal.
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This happened literally on the tails of having had conversation with a narcissistic person. They were talking about something—things that they needed, things that they wanted, something they were interested in, and then making some random, typically foolish, observations
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or asking a question. I would answer their question. Then I'd share about myself. Maybe I'd share something—I think I shared something relevant about myself and while answering their question. The two things were related.
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Once I brought myself into it, they looked at me and either didn't respond or they brought it right back to themselves.
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They talk. These narcissistic people, they talk. They talk about what's on the TV. They talk about what they're working on. They talk about a problem they're having.
Speaker A
They talk about the change in the trash delivery days. They talk about the annoying neighbor.
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They may even ask a question, which I would answer. But basically, I realized I was a chatbot.
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Once they got the answer, I don't say thank you to the chatbot. Do you? I mean, sometimes I actually do say thank you to the chatbot. But there was no thank you.
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There was no attempt to see how I was doing or what I was doing or ask me about me. Do you ask the chatbot how they're doing? Probably not.
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Nothing. Just—Not even—Not even a little. Sometimes in the series of conversations I had with this person, I'd raise something.
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I'd say, "Whoof. Tough day. I didn't know the traffic would be so bad through the center of town. I barely got to the store before it closed." There was—and I was getting something for the person—there was no sense of
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like, "Wow. Tell me about that." Like, "How strange." Or, "I'm so glad you're able to get to the store in time." Instead, what I got was a long discourse about the timing of the red light in the middle of the town
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and that other people drive too slow and that no one should do errands at that time of day and that they always do their errands in the morning.
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But nothing else. No sense of my experience. That I just got in there and that I even showed up a little bit war-weary with the product from the store.
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I didn't need to be in the room for this. Because all of this hyper narcissism time in my life has happened in a brief period of time. Like I said, it's been like a bit of an experiment.
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I would be curious, like, would this ever come around in a meaningful way to the other person or people in the conversation? And I realized actually not really.
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Give you another example. I travel a lot, okay? So, for example, in one case in one of these many narcissistic conversations I've been having, I shared something about a hotel I stayed in. Again, no follow-up. No interest, but either they would
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bring the conversation back to an unrelated topic but that was relevant to them, or they would start talking about all the hotels they stay in or they shared something about they saw on YouTube about hotels and that they feel like a hotel expert.
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They are not a hotel expert. Then when I really paid attention because again it was an experiment, so I was trying different things to see how it all worked, I offered up nothing.
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Nothing. I realized that for this person I was either a—people actually, I was either a chatbot. They would ask questions relevant to—they themselves. They wouldn't ask me about my day or anything like that.
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And anything else that they said was never a question but it was a statement that they were making about the world.
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Think of what a conversation is. There's a lot of built-in question but they're making a statement. The game is on too late.
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Europe has better health care. I am using oak instead of maple. The mangoes are better from that store.
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What are you supposed to do with that? Okay. There was no back and forth. It was either their one-sided commentary about whatever banal thing was on their mind or I was a chatbot.
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And even when I did ask them a question, there would be very little follow-up.
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Right? Sometimes I needed the answer to the question to go on to do something.
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Some of these folks are people I've known for a long time. So, this was not like the awkward get-to-know-you phase with someone new.
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But one thing that kept coming back to is that there was a tendency of the narcissistic people to make observations about the world.
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They sort of yammer on about their observations of the world. And usually their observations of the world are pretty sour. They're kind of like malcontented grievances. It's not like, "Wow, isn't it just a beautiful day today?" No, it's like it's things like
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"Can you believe how they—how they have people lining up to get on this flight?
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Can you believe how people just take too long to give their order at the counter?
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I can't believe the town let them plant that ugly tree. This restaurant has gone downhill.
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That guy is a jerk. Are your pens in this cup clean? The self-checkout takes too long." It's like observe, observe, observe. Talk, talk, talk. And you realize that any form of a relationship with these folks really kind of devolves into a long
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hellish Seinfeld episode. What can you say to that? Yeah, can't believe it. Yeah, ugly tree. Yeah, the food sucks.
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Because if you were to push back and say, "I don't know. The airplane people seem to be boarding group by group. It seems like a good system," or "It's going to take as long as it takes to get the
Speaker A
food order in," then you're going to become their new target. So, we end up having to do a lot of either just listening to their ridiculous commentary just to avoid going too far down the rabbit hole with them.
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This actually just happened to me yesterday. I was in a doctor's office. Um, and I was bored. I had a long wait. So, I put my timer on my watch and I was timing it. This one woman came in and
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she was rude to the receptionist right away. In a 3-minute period, one woman managed to complain about the pens in the cup, the line, the chairs in the waiting room, that her husband wouldn't bring her coffee up from the car, that
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nobody ever listens to her, and that she shouldn't have to wait. 3 minutes, she managed to get all t
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My heart ached for the people in her life. There were no conversations being had.
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It was just commands, demands, and one-sided questions. But, over time the one-sidedness of all of this struck me.
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The same way I can't talk to the people on my TV. I mean, I can and I sometimes do, but I know they're not going to answer me.
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It's the same thing here. Except, I don't expect the people on the TV to respond to me.
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And as I kept having these conversations, I mean, I was in I'm in a terrible situation. So, I'm like, let me just keep testing it and it keeps happening.
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I have to say, in these past few months, I've even met some new narcissistic people. The pattern stuck.
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They would say things, but they really were not waiting for answers. I was like someone to talk at.
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And they nor did they have really have much interest in the other people or person in the conversation. And this is yet another reason why people in narcissistic relationships feel like they are slowly losing their minds.
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It looks to the world like we're in a relationship. We are, after all, sitting with someone and talking to them, or so it seems, but the other person's actually not listening to us.
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They're not asking follow-up questions. They don't care. But they're always bringing it back to them, giving their theories, yammering on about nothing.
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It's as though it's to hear the sound of their own voice. And even if it is a group of people, and let's say they're in a group of narcissistic persons in a group of people and they really aren't interested
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in what is being talked about. They don't care about the topic. Maybe they can't offer anything.
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They will either leave or say something irrelevant to turn it back to themselves. The lack of attunement, the lack of engagement, the lack of interest, the lack of reciprocity, over time, it really leaves you feeling crazy in one
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of these relationships. Like you're in some form of cosplay. You're at a table with a person and both of your mouths are moving, but it's not a conversation and yet other people think it is. At the end of the day, it's a [ __ ]
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soliloquy. There's no other way to view it. And it is tricky because again, we get back to that vacillation of the narcissistic relationship, right? And you'll think, "Yep, this is a pattern. They talk and either you listen and you nod your head
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politely or you be a chatbot." And then sometimes there may be what feels like a conversation.
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And remember, the biggest error we make in these relationships, it's pronounced for people who are trauma bonded, but anyone in these relationships, we make the mistake of using the one normal thing that happens to erase the 100 times
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before that it wasn't like this. Be wary of doing that because then you start blaming yourself.
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Sometimes, especially in more mild to moderate narcissistic relationships, we wonder, "Am I being too fussy? Am I expecting too much in this relationship?" There may be enough in the relationship that isn't, if you will, completely terrible. But if you really stop and pay
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attention, you will recognize that at least when it comes to communication, they're either talking at you, asking you something, and just expecting a simple answer, or bringing conversation back to themselves. It doesn't really come back to you in a meaningful way.
Speaker A
There is little curiosity unless it is to gaslight or diminish. Things like, "Oh, you don't know what you're talking about." Or, "Only a fool would stay in that hotel. How much did you pay?" Interaction, by definition, interaction is back and forth, or reciprocal.
Speaker A
But for the narcissistic person, it only becomes back and forth if there's an opportunity to dominate and control.
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Again, for example, we see gaslighting. So, here's the example. You say, "Why did you tell me that we were going to be home for dinner?" Them, they said, "I never said I was going to be home for dinner." You say,
Speaker A
"Yes, you did. I texted you twice, and I even got the takeout you like you told me to." Them, they they say, "You hear what you want. I never said that. You always make it about yourself." You say,
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"You're kidding me, right? Here, here's the text." Them, they say, "You're such a weirdo. What do you do, stalk my texts so you can wave your stupid phone in my face? Maybe if you did something, you wouldn't make stalking me your full-time
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job." I guess Okay, so that's the conversation. One could say, "Well, that's a back and forth." But is it? Because that's when it is a back and forth in a narcissistic relationship, it can feel quite toxic.
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To not be attuned to or to be abused in a conversation that we think is a conversation over time leaves us feeling like there is something wrong with us.
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But once you get the patterns and you see it, you really start to say that most narcissistic relationships feel like having to listen to a boring, random, poorly produced podcast.
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In some cases, it's an abusive podcast. But to to realize that what I am saying or offering or asking has little bearing on this conversation and this sensation is isolating and it's alienating and it's angering and it's unsettling.
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And many of us miss it. We may think, "Oh, I am going to practice being a good listener." That's right. You know, everyone's supposed to be a good listener. And listen, I'm all for being a good listener.
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But you can't just have it always be a one-way street of listening unless you're a therapist or in a service profession, but even people in those service professions, they need back and forth in real life.
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For it to always be one way in your real life, it's soul-sapping. I was at a work event a little while ago and my narcissistic spidey senses were running high about someone, very high.
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A group of them were talking. I wasn't part of the group. I was doing something. I was doing some work on my computer.
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But I could hear their conversation and you know me, I'm always wanting to learn stuff. So I sat back. I was curious to see how this would go down. Everyone was in a big hotel lobby. I knew some of the
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folks in the group, so I kind of turned my back so they didn't see me.
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The narcissistic person who I suspected was this way, it was conversation was going on for a while, but very masterfully they always back brought it back to themselves.
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Remember at one point, one gal in the group said, "Oh, I just read such a great book by such and such person on this very topic.
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And then the narcissistic person then hijacked again and said, "Ah, yes." And then went on and on and on and on about their take on the topic.
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Never reflected on the book or the take of that other book or anything like that. Not one person was brought into the conversation. The one narcissistic person was holding court. And everyone else just had to sit there.
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The fawn response would dictate that they would just sit there. I mean, to step away from it, from the group, that brings up other fear. So, it doesn't matter if it's one-on-one or if it's a narcissist with a group. Now, some of
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you may be saying, "I don't know, Dr. Ramani. During the early part of the relationship, they were listening. They seemed to be hanging on my every word." You also have to be careful whether or not those are dynamics like mirroring or
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even them trying to get data and information about you. But how long did that hanging on your every word phase last?
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Others of you may say, "No, no, Dr. Ramani. They hang on their bosses' every word in responding. They're on top of those messages." Well, that's where narcissism can be quite tactical. And it can also be quite frustrating because
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it's not that the narcissistic person lacks the capacity to have a reciprocal conversation. But once you are deemed to be not valuable enough, well, then the podcast you're listening to stops being interactive really quickly. And that's most of their
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relationships. But if you can think of it that way, that I am in a relationship with or was raised by or friends with what is in essence a boring podcast that thinks I'm a chatbot, it can actually help you with realistic
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expectations. And also undo that sense that you're the one losing your mind. But most importantly, to remind you to seek out other spaces where the conversation goes both ways.
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Unless you really want to listen to their random, angry ramblings. Personally, I don't recommend it.
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Thanks again.
Topics:narcissismnarcissistic personality disordercommunicationrelationshipsempathyDr. Ramanitoxic relationshipsconversation dynamicsemotional healthboundaries
