Ben Cohen of Ben & Jerry’s on How Ice Cream Meets Activ… — Transcript

All right, good afternoon, Ben. It is wonderful to have you with me here today on Word on the Street Live as we are inviting folks to join us in our live stream. Ben Cohen, one of the founders of Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream. And to mark the occasion, I was really excited that my team brought a pint of chocolate fudge brownie.

Oh, that's a good one. You're lucky my team didn't bring me any. Do you have a favorite?

Are you allowed to have a favorite? Is it like—

Sure. I'm allowed to do whatever I feel like doing sometimes. Well, I really like Chubby Hubby. That's chocolate-covered peanut butter-filled pretzels in vanilla malt ice cream with a peanut butter ripple. I like coffee toffee crunch, coffee buzz buzz buzz, and you know, I've been doing vanilla ice cream on Wheat Thins, which I think is a little open-face sandwich, which is quite enjoyable. You know, you have the smooth richness of the ice cream and the slightly salty crunch of the Wheat Thin. I recommend it.

Excellent. Excellent. Well, I love getting this firsthand knowledge. It is a multi-decade obsession of mine to try to get through as many of your flavors as possible. So, [laughter] it's wonderful to hear what your favorites are. And this is wonderful for me here on Word on the Street Live to have a slight break from our usual flow of Washington DC policy wonks and politicos. And we're exploring this week a different realm of activism, which is the realm of corporate responsibility, and having a leader in this space, Ben Cohen, a founder of Ben & Jerry's, with us.

I'm also really excited because it brings me back then to my pre-J Street days when I was working for Fenton Communications, and I know we had a number of projects you were doing with you and the company and David, and you know, you've been so engaged in the anti-war space and in the social justice space and the idea of corporate engagement and corporate responsibility. So this is a real throwback for me. Elon Goldenberg is my usual partner. He is not with us this week. He is off with his family on vacation. He and I will be back next week when we are going to be going live at some point after the BB Netanyahu-Donald Trump meeting. So folks should look for a notice in your email either later on Monday or at some point on Tuesday.

We are not going to do a Wednesday evening pre-New Year's Eve Word on the Street Live at our usual time, Wednesday, 4:00 p.m. Eastern. We'll come back the following week and then we will stay on schedule for the rest of the week. One final plug before we get into our conversation with Ben is I wanted to make sure that folks had seen a piece that I wrote this weekend on the ongoing de facto annexation of the West Bank that was highlighted. It was highlighted in the New York Times in a wonderful visual piece that they did this weekend, but it was also on Israel's national broadcaster Channel 1 with a documentary for about an hour which now has English subtitles. And I circulated that piece this Sunday.

I really would ask everybody who is watching this, whether you're watching it live or watching it later on one of the other platforms, please do read that piece, watch the documentary, and then share it with people because it is absolutely impossible to ignore when you see it what is going on in the West Bank. And we're going to come back to that with you, Ben, because I really think the reason why you and I are having this conversation today starts with the decision that you all made in 2021 to not allow your product—or it was not your decision. In fact, let's unwrap that.

You know, the idea was that a socially responsible ice cream should not be sold in West Bank settlements. And that seems like a pretty straightforward idea. But why don't you take us a little bit back in time to the sort of origin story of how it ended up that Ben and Jerry's is unable to make a decision about where its product is sold and what the relationship is to Unilever. And I think the sale was in 2000 of Ben and Jerry's to Unilever.

Ben Cohen, founder of Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, is with us here today on Word on the Street Live to talk to us a little bit about his company, its interaction with Israel, the settlement issue, the question of settlement boycott. And Ben, take it away from here and tell us a little bit about the origin story.

Sure. Ben and Jerry's started in 1978. It was a little homemade ice cream parlor in an old gas station. Jerry and I didn't really expect it to become anything more than that. And you know, it was really good ice cream. And the company had a very strong social conscience and it took stands, took actions on a bunch of different social and political issues. And between the great ice cream and people feeling like finally here's a company that cares about something more than just maximizing profits, the company grew hugely.

It was a publicly held company eventually. First, we just sold stock to Vermonters, our neighbors, but then it became listed on NASDAQ. Eventually, in the year 2000, Unilever wanted to buy the company and they made an offer for the stock that was much higher than the stock was trading at. According to SEC rules, the company had to be sold to them.

That was something I tried to avoid but couldn't. In the process of negotiating that sale, Jerry and I were able to require that there was a very unusual form of governance. It established an independent board of directors for Ben and Jerry's that had responsibility for the social mission, for the quality of the product, for how the product is marketed, and the use of the trademark.

I was concerned that despite what it said on paper, the social mission was going to die. But happily, the social mission lived and thrived for a long time. Around 2019 or so, both the company, that is the management of the company, and the independent board of Ben and Jerry's started being concerned that selling our ice cream, allowing our ice cream to be sold in the occupied territories in the West Bank, especially since the occupation was illegal and Palestinians were being mistreated, we felt like we shouldn't be selling the ice cream there. We shouldn't be supporting that.

The company spent a lot of time, years, researching it and visiting Palestine and Israel and talking with people on all sides. Eventually, Unilever, Ben & Jerry's, and the independent board all decided yes, we should pull out of the West Bank, and we did that and announced that. The government of Israel was somewhat pissed off and they came—you know, what I'm told is that the head of Israel got in touch with the head of Unilever and said, you know, you've got a lot of businesses here in Israel besides Ben and Jerry's, and if you don't somehow find a way to keep this ice cream in the West Bank, we're going to throw all of your business out of Israel.

So Unilever unilaterally at that time decided that they were going to sell the rights to Ben & Jerry's to an Israeli businessman who would then distribute the ice cream into the West Bank with the packaging written in Hebrew. And that's what happened. That was something that was not allowed under the terms of the acquisition agreement. A decision to do that—

And I really would ask everybody who is watching this uh whether you're watching it live or watching it later on one of the other platforms, please do uh read that piece, watch the documentary, and then share it with people because it is

absolutely impossible to ignore when you see it uh what is going on on the West Bank. And we're going to come back to that uh with you, Ben. Uh because I really think the the reason why you and

I are having this conversation today starts with uh the decision that you all made in uh in 2021 uh to not allow your product or it was not your decision uh you know, in fact, let's unwrap that. Uh

you know, the the idea was that a socially responsible ice cream uh should not be sold in West Bank settlements.

And that seems like a pretty straightforward idea. Um, but why don't you uh uh take us a little bit back in time uh to uh the sort of origin story of how it ended up that Ben and Jerry's

is unable to make a decision about where its product is sold and what the relationship is to uh to Unilver and I think the sale was 2000 uh of Ben and Jerry's to Unilver.

Ben Cohen, founder of Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, is with us here today on Word on the Street Live to talk to us a little bit about his company, uh, its interaction with, uh, Israel, the the settlement issue, the question of

settlement boycott. And Ben, take it away from here and and tell us a little bit about the origin story.

Uh, sure. Um, you know, Ben and Jerry's uh, started in 1978. It was uh a little homemade ice cream parlor in an old gas station. Uh Jerry and I didn't really expect it to become anything more than that. And you know, it was really good

ice cream. Uh and and and the c and the company uh had had a very strong social conscious and uh it took stands. that took actions on on a bunch of different social and and political issues. And between the great ice cream and people

feeling like finally here's a here's a company that that cares about something more than than just maximizing profits.

the company grew uh hugely and uh and it be it was a publicly held company uh eventually uh first we just sold stock to verminers our neighbors um but then it became listed on NASDAQ and uh and eventually uh in the year 2000

Unilver uh wanted to buy the company and uh they made an offer for the stock that was much higher than the stock was trading at and according to SEC rules uh the company you know had had to get

sold to them. um you know that was uh something I tried to avoid but couldn't and but in the process of negotiating that uh that sale we were Jerry and I were were able to uh require that uh that there was a very unusual form of

of governance uh and it established an independent board of directors for Ben and Jerry's that had responsibility for uh the social mission uh for the quality of the product uh for how the product is marketed and um [snorts]

and the use of the trademark and uh you know I I was concerned that you know despite what it said on paper that uh you know that the social mission was going to die. But uh you know happily

the social mission uh lived and thrived uh for a long time and and then uh you know I think around 2019 or so the both the company you know that is the management of the company and the independent board

uh of Ben and Jerry's started being concerned that uh selling our ice cream, allowing our ice cream to be sold in the occupied territories in the West Bank uh especially, you know, since the occupation was illegal and uh

Palestinians were being uh mistreated. We felt like we shouldn't be selling the ice cream there. We shouldn't be supporting that. And um we the company spent a lot of time years uh researching it and visiting uh Palestine and Israel and talking with

people on all sides and eventually Unilver and Ben & Jerry's and the independent board all decided yes we should pull out of the West Bank and we did that and announced that and uh the government of Israel uh was some pissed off and uh they uh

they came you you know the what I'm told is that the head of Israel got in touch with the head of Unilver and said uh you know you've got a lot of businesses here in Israel besides Ben and Jerry's and if

you don't somehow find a way to keep this ice cream in the West Bank uh we're going to throw throw all of your business out of Israel. And uh so Unilver uh unilaterally at that time decided that well they were going to

sell the rights to Ben & Jerry's to an Israeli businessman uh who would then distribute the ice cream into the West Bank.

uh with the packaging written in Hebrew and um and that's what happened and uh that was uh you know that that was that was something that was not allowed under the terms of the acquisition agreement. uh a decision to to do that uh rested in the

hands of the independent board of directors and after a lot of attempts at negotiating and figuring out a a way to resolve the problem, uh the independent board ended up suing Unilver, which you know was a pretty unusual thing to have

happen. And uh that really um you know eventually there was an out of court settlement.

Uh the settlement was violated by by Unilver. The the board sued him again and uh that's currently in you know in the courts. Um but what happened after 2021 after that conflict uh is that unilver changed the way they uh related to Ben &

Jerry's and and it used to be that uh you know Ben & Jerry's would take whatever stands it felt was important to take based on their values. uh and and that would be okay. But but Unilver after 2021 started

uh started refusing to allow Ben & Jerry's to take public stands on issues that it saw as as controversial.

Um and uh and that and that's continued. Um, and it's it seems like uh Unilver and now Magnum, the company that they spun off their ice cream business to, uh, has become somewhat trumpified. And, uh, you know, if the comp if Ben &

Jerry's tries to take a stand on an issue that Trump wouldn't agree with, uh, it's disallowed by, uh, by Magnum now. and uh you know employees are threatened with being fired if you know if they if they put out a post like that. So

So just a a quick point of clarification that I think will be interesting for the folks that are watching. The decision that you all wanted to make in 2019 and that the independent board wanted to make was not to stop selling ice cream

in Israel. The the this was not a boycott of Israel. This was saying that the product shouldn't be sold in illegal settlements on the West Bank. Is that correct?

Yeah, that's exactly correct. Thank you for clarifying that, Jeremy. Uh, you know, I I think that Israel is deathly afraid of uh being called an apartheid state and and having a boycott, devestment, and sanction movement.

uh launched against them by the international community in the same way that that was done in uh South Africa.

Uh so they so so you're correct that what Ben & Jerry's was doing was not boycotting Israel. It was not uh talking about people divesting or sanctioning Israel.

was just saying we didn't want our products sold in the occupied territories. However, it got fla it got conflated with the BDS movement and uh and Israel uh the government of Israel had lobbied in various state legislatures in the United States

uh to pass these antib laws uh and which where where states [snorts] passed laws saying that uh their state funds, the state treasury funds could not be invested in a company that was participating in boycots, dimensions, divestments or sanctions of

Israel. And although that's not what Benjur was doing, uh these companies I mean these states uh divested from uh Unilver stock and you know that that didn't sit real well with Unilver.

And I think that's just such an important point. you know, the the conflation of the territory that Israel has occupied since 1967 with the actual state of Israel within that line called the Green Line that that defined Israel from 48 to 67. Uh

that conflation is something that um it's in Israel's interest. uh this right-wing government of Israel would like the world to think that in fact it is in control of all the land uh from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean

Sea that this is all one uh contiguous body but in reality there is a very critical legal distinction uh that the territory where the settlements uh is is not recognized by anybody in the world as part of the state of Israel uh and in

fact the state of Israel itself has not annexed the territory thankfully legally. Uh and it is ruled by a military governor. Uh it is under the laws of occupation. Uh there is no uh when the Knesset passes a law for the

state of Israel, that law doesn't apply uh to the settlements. The law has to be taken by the governor general, a military general and made effective for the settlements. So there is a very clear distinction under Israeli law uh

between what happens on the West Bank and what happens in Israel proper. Yet in the court of public opinion, Israel does what you just said, which is it it pushes and it lobbies and it uh you know tries to to erase that distinction. We

call it differentiation. It's really important to J Street. Uh we support the idea of Israel. We're a group that is pro-Israel. uh we're anti-occupation and we think the Palestinian people have to have a state and they have to have it on

the West Bank which is the land on which the settlements are being built and that everything that happens there that makes life normal. For instance, selling ice cream uh you know in the settlements makes life normal uh just as if you were

living in Tel Aviv or inside any other Israeli city. And so this kind of differentiation to us is not a boycott.

Um, what it is is it's a recognition of what the actual reality is. So, we were very supportive of what you were trying to do and and trying to help make the case that this was not a full-on boycott

of the state of Israel. Thank you. Yeah, we can use all the help we can get.

Exactly. So now, you know, fast forward a bit, uh, and, um, you you have had this ongoing battle, um, to try to free Ben and Jerry's, right? in that is I wanted to give you a chance to tell

folks a little bit about the effort to regain independence and and uh what what can people do who are interested in supporting the effort of Ben and Jerry's to gain its freedom back uh from the larger corporate structures that are

denying your freedom of speech and political activism. Yeah. I mean, all we're trying to do, all we've been trying to do was to get Unilver and Magnum now to abide by the terms of this legally binding agreement.

Uh they refused to do so. Uh they've been attempting to dismantle uh this this independent board of directors that has all this power.

And uh Jerry and I came to the conclusion that uh under the current ownership uh there's no way that Ben and Jerry's will able will be able to remain the company that we've all come to to know that uh that Ben &

Jerry's will uh lose the the social values and the social activism uh that's been a hallmark of the company. Uh, you know, who knows what's going to happen with the the quality of the ice cream and uh and so so you know,

Unilver at one point uh oh about two years ago now decided that they want to sell off their entire ice cream division. Um [clears throat] you know they own about I think it's a hundred brands now around the world. uh you

know, two of the top ones, one of them is is Magnum. It's a chocolatecovered ice cream bar on a stick. And the other one is Ben & Jerry's. And uh what we said when Unilver announced that they wanted to sell off their whole

ice cream business was, "Well, why don't you just sell off Ben and Jerry's separate? We've got a group of socially aligned investors that support the social mission and would like to buy it.

and uh you know that would solve this conflict, that would solve this problem. But Unilver and Magnum refused to do that. And so, like I said, Jerry and I realized that the only that there was no way that the company was going to remain

uh you know that force for progressive social change that it that it's been under the current ownership and and so Jerry actually resigned because of that and I decided to stay and uh and start the free Ben and Jerry's campaign to um

to to kind of pressure uh Unilver and Magnum to try to help them to understand that it's in the in the financial interests of the of the Magnum Ice Cream Company to uh to sell off this this asset, this company that they don't

agree with. uh so that they can focus on the other brands that they that they own that don't have a social mission. Uh but you know what we say to them is let Ben and Jerry's be Ben and Jerry's. Let

Magnum and Unilver be Magnum and Unilver. That's fine. But don't turn Ben and Jerry's into just another piece of frozen mush like you know a lot of your other brands.

Well, it sounds like it would be a great uh you know, sader, you know, let let my ice cream go. Uh exactly. Exactly. I I was thinking of that uh last Passover and uh you know [laughter] uh God willing uh this year Ben and Juries

will be in the promised land. We will have been delivered from bondage. Exa Exactly. [laughter] So, I'll just encourage again all of our viewers and listeners uh to to please do visit freeben &jer.com uh and join the social media pressure

campaign here to free Ben & Jerry's and deliver them not just to our homes but to uh to the promised land. So, uh very very uh the the true land of milk and honey, frozen milk and honey. Cream.

Exactly. Cream and honey. [laughter] Um well tell me a little bit you know the the values this social mission of the company um and you contrasted it to the the Trump era where we see corporate uh titans and law firms and all sorts of

institutional powers uh essentially bending the knee uh to what it is that the Trump administration, the Trump team wants. Um, where do you see the movement for corporate responsibility uh heading in the 2020s and and beyond given the

way in which corporate America has uh so readily fallen in line and given into so much of the pressure that is coming from uh an assertive right-wing uh White House and administration? Is is there still a role for progressive social

entrepreneurs and and that voice within the corporate world? Yeah, you know, uh, after the the murder of George Floyd, all these large mainstream companies came out with these wonderful statements uh about uh, you know, ending discrimination and uh, proactively getting more focused on

diversifying their their workforce and their supplier base. and, you know, ended up making these commitments to, you know, banks were making commitments to make loans to to black people and uh, you know, and then and then Trump comes

into office saying DEI bad and they all just jettisoned all those programs, all those commitments uh, that they made.

So, I mean, I was really, really happy when they made those statements. I thought that, you know, corporate America is finally finding a conscience.

Uh, and I was in incredibly saddened when uh, it appeared that it was just they didn't they didn't really, you know, it was just kind of like a fad that they tacked on and then they just kind of let it go when the guy in the

Oval Office says he doesn't like it. Um you know I I our our democracy is being systematically uh destroyed. uh it's being turned into some kind of authoritarian kind of government and um where you know PE so as you said the you know you have all

these law firms and and corporations and uh politicians I mean everybody is just kind of as you said bending the knee that you know, wow. If the if the president says it, uh, we're just going to go right along with it. We're gonna we're

gonna contribute money to his crazy stuff. Uh, and I think that the reality is that business has become the most powerful force in our society. You know, it used to be religion.

Uh, then it used to be nation states and today it's business. I mean the government should be regulating business but it's the other way around. Business regulates government. Uh you know business controls our elections through campaign contributions.

It controls our legislation through lobbying. It controls our media and the news we see through ownership. So, I think BIS, if we're going to save our democracy, I think that business needs to stand up.

And uh certainly that's what I'm looking for a free Ben & Jerry's to do. And uh you know I I I was just talking with a guy who who runs uh you know a a kind of a center for

human rights at at at a business school and and you know this guy used to be in uh you know presidential administrations and and he's talking to you know the the heads of of of a bunch of these major

corporations And you know, behind closed doors, they're saying, uh, you know, this guy is crazy and, uh, you know, we got to do something about him. But in public, uh, you know, they they they don't want to, uh,

they they don't want to stick out. they they they don't want to be uh you know put themselves in risk of uh I don't know derision or whatever and you know I I I thought about how companies are

dealing with this and you know it's it's distressing to see them just just you know just uh what appeasing appeasing Trump And uh and and then I realized that, you know, most corporations uh they don't have a social mission. Uh

they don't have a a threepart mission where where you know the social mission is on an equal level with the financial mission. All they've got is a financial mission. That financial mission is to maximize short-term profits. So it looks good on

the quarterly reports and you know if that's the sole mission of your organization and the guy in the White House can make it hard for you to maximize profits if if you don't do what he says. Uh then

it's then it becomes a fairly easy decision. Uh yeah, I'm I'm I'm trying to maximize short-term profits. If I go against this guy, my short-term profits are in jeopardy. So, I'm going to do what he says.

So, we are here with uh Ben Cohen, the founder of Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream.

I'm enjoying a pint of chocolate fudge brownie while we are talking. And we are here on Word on the Street Live. Come to you every Wednesday at 4 PM. Please uh pass along the sign up to your friends

and subscribe to get our regular analyses of what's going on in Israel, what's going on in the Middle East, what's happening in American politics, what is happening in our democracy. All of this is related. J Streets at the the

front lines leading the fight for the Jewish and the democratic values that we believe in. And then I wanted to shift gears a little bit to the fact that you know you and Jerry are both Jewish and uh the values on which the company uh

was founded. You know it's a social justice mission uh and you are in a sense I mean I don't know if you view it this way but I I see the values that Ben and Jerry's puts into effect as being

very grounded in the Jewish values on which I was raised. I'm curious if that set of values and ideals, you know, comes to you through a connection to tradition and and is this something that you feel a connectivity to an identity

in the Jewish uh world at all or is it more just a political and democratic identity?

Uh I I think it certainly comes from uh my my early education as a Jew. Uh I I wasn't uh particularly religious. I mean, I did get bar mitzvah cuz you know, my parents made me. Uh and uh and

I did attend uh the Center Island Jewish School when I was in elementary school.

And this was, you know, a school that taught uh Jewish culture. um uh you know dances, songs, food and uh and and and it also taught uh you know the history of the Jews and uh you know a history of of oppression and uh being

scapegoats and you know certainly that made me very conscious and and sympathetic uh with other people that are being uh oppressed and and treated as scapegoats. uh you know today I I mean so I you know I've been very focused on

issues of racial justice and uh and and you know and and today uh the people that are being scapegoed are uh immigrants and so I'm I'm very sympathetic to the plight of immigrants uh you know who are mostly

people coming from countries that the US has uh has interfered with uh in terms of invasions, in terms of covert uh overthrows and coups uh in terms of economic uh policies.

Uh, so you know that the US kind of screwed up their countries and so they're they're trying to come to our country to to have a a shot at a decent life and you know I I'm I have no problem with uh

with immigrants and and but but but there is the issue that they're being treated as scapegoats just like the Jews were treated as scapegoats. I mean, they're not doing they're not making anybody's life problematic. I mean, they're what what's what's the problem?

[laughter] But it's it's good for the authoritarian leader to uh blame all the problems on some group and and that's what he's doing just as had been done to the Jews kind of throughout history. It it's interesting that there's this woman now. I forgot

what I forgot who what her name is, but she's the woman who's going around saying that, oh, we made a mistake in terms of Holocaust education. That really what we were trying to tell people was that you shouldn't commit

genocide on Jews. But they they they took it to mean you shouldn't commit genocide on anyone. and we we really screwed up. I mean, I I think that's crazy. I I it's amazing to me.

Yeah. I mean, that there are so many people who take the values that we have instilled in our young people where we have taught them that the essence of being Jewish is you don't treat other people the way

that we were treated. That's that's where we learned our morals, right, was because we were oppressed. And so we learned do not oppress, right? that is the heart of the uh you know Jewish ethos and our ethics and our morals. Uh

and we instill that in our kids and then our kids turn around and say but wait a minute what are you doing to the Palestinian people? You know what how is it possible that you you know the Jewish

people now have their state they have their independence they have their power. They're turning around and treating another people the way that we don't want to be treated ourselves. And then educators and leaders in our community say uhoh we did something

wrong. you know, somehow our kids our kids are turning against us. And I'm thinking to myself, well, actually, we did something right. Uh, you know, we really instilled these values, these wonderful values about standing up for immigrants and standing up for the

oppressed and standing up for those who don't have. And that's the best of Judaism. And if you're standing up to your parents and you're standing up to your rabbi and you're standing up to your community and to the state of of

Israel, of the Jewish people and saying you're not living up to the morals, that's the best thing we could ever have done is to create a generation that that says that. And so, you know, it just kills me as you said when they turn,

oops, we made a mistake. Never again only applied to us. You know, that's that we didn't mean to everybody else.

You know what? That is not the right message and it's certainly not the message that you and and Jerry, you know, pursue through your social mission and through the mission of of Ben and Jerry's where I think you're upholding

the the best of the Jewish people. Yeah. And and it's not just the Jewish religion or the Jewish upbringing. I mean, right, it's the Christian upbringing. I mean, it's the season. Peace on earth, goodwill to all. And uh you know when

you when you think about Jesus uh you know there used to be this phrase that was going around what would Jesus do? I mean he wouldn't be you know sending immigrants to uh El Salvador to the to the worst most hellish prison probably

in the world. Uh he would be welcoming them. I mean you had the Catholic bishops came out and made a statement that what we're the way the US is treating immigrants is un uncristlike.

And so I mean the religions both the Jewish religion and Jesus Christ I I think are on the same page. Let's let's not oppress people. Let's take care of people.

Let's be kind to people. Uh and uh and yet you know the the the religions the uh you know some of the what the the organizations the they they they kind of misunderstand I think what what was really meant by the essence of

of Judaism or the essence of Jesus Christ. Yeah. No, I think it becomes a very tribal instead of being grounded in the values, it becomes grounded in the tribe. Uh, and you end up just wanting to defend your people at all costs and

that becomes the institutional imperative of some of the organizations. And I think sometimes they refer to themselves as defense organizations, right? and the anybody who's criticizing we're seeing that play out frankly in some of the criticism of the mayor elect

of New York uh where you know he is uh very harshly critical of what's going on uh in Israel. Um c certainly he's the furthest thing from a Zionist than one could possibly be and I'd you know disagree with him very much on some of

his views. uh but to turn around and just immediately start going after him and everyone around him on on the grounds of being an anti-semite uh when most of the things that are being said and done are really just very harsh

criticism of what Israel is doing. It leans into that tribal uh side of identity and and loses the values and losses the the essence of the morals that that I think are the beauty of the community rather than the more tribal

and defensive nature. Yeah, I I think that's that's a good point that uh you know, not something that I usually think about that it's people are approaching it from a tribal point of view. You know, my tribe says

this, so I agree with it. The other tribe says that so I don't agree with it.

People need to start thinking for themselves and with their hearts, I think. And a little more universally, I mean, and again, it gets back to those values are universal values, right? and and uh you know we're all going to do better if

there is equality and freedom and justice for everyone. Uh and if we who are being attacked stand together with others who are being attacked, we have a much greater chance of beating the oppressor. Uh then if one starts

fighting with all the other oppressed groups over who's you know victimhood and who has suffered more and that is not a strategy for success, right? we have a larger fight which is we have this Trump MAGA anti-democratic autocratic ethnationalist racist

movement out there and whether you are an immigrant or you are a Muslim American or you are Jewish American or you're any form or flavor of American who doesn't like this you need to stand together and not fight with each other

because we have a much bigger problem than we have with each other with this larger autocratic ethnationalist uh view that is coming after all of us.

Yeah, I I think that's exactly right. So I wanted to uh bring us home with a final set of questions around um you know you have obviously had some real engagement now with the Israel Palestine issue through Ben & Jerry's over these

last few years but you have a larger campaign uh that you are very active on which relates a lot to the uh the militarization of our foreign policy and and in fact of our entire national budget and how much money we spend on

arms and weapons and where that could be going. Um, and I'd love for you to just tell folks a little bit about that campaign and hopefully it's something that people will check out and get involved in as well.

Sure. It's the It's the Up in Arms campaign, up inarms.life and uh it's pretty much a campaign about how, you know, the American dream is no longer accessible to people anymore. You can't afford a house, you can't afford

child care, you can't afford health care. And uh and the reason why it's not is that we're wasting now it's like 70% of the entire expendable income of our country on uh the department of war uh actual wars preparations for wars

cleaning up after wars trying to take care of all [snorts] the veterans that get horribly wounded. wounded in wars and the cost is just staggering. I mean, when I was getting into this at the beginning, the cost was uh under a

billion dollars a day, which was a shitload of money. Uh now it is over $2 billion a day. It's getting closer to three.

uh what you could do with that money if you were using it to help people as opposed to destroy people is you you know there's no end. You could solve every problem that we've got in terms of hunger at at home and around

the world in terms of healthc care preventable disease at home and around the world. you could fully fund uh our schools here in the US. Uh you know, and and you'd still have a whole lot left over, more than any

other country spends on their uh on their military. So, you know, the the problem is that people come to Congress or to their elected representative and they say, "Wow, we need money for our kids. We need money for food, money for our

schools, can't afford a house. And they say, "Oh, geez, I'm sorry. That's so bad. I really feel for you, but we just don't have any money." And that is a lie.

What they mean is we've decided to waste your money on paying weapons manufacturers to build weapons that are designed to kill literally hundreds of millions of people.

Uh it's just stupid. It's just an incredible waste. Uh it's immoral. It's irrational. and uh it's stealing money out of everybody's pockets.

So, there's a way to do something about it. Go to uparms.life. And uh you know one of the big misdirects that happens from the pro- military pro-defense spending forces is this concept that somehow we're wasting so much money on USID type programs on

foreign aid on you know the giveaways of medicine and health care to poor countries. So when Elon Musk comes with his chainsaw and Doge and they want to, you know, save the government money, what do they do? They go after the less

than 1% of the budget that we spend on diplomacy and e economic development and health assistance and all the rest of it. And they say that's where the waste is. Meanwhile, the 70% of the budget that's over here, you know, going into

the military-industrial complex is completely ignored. Uh and in fact, this administration is going to increase the spending there while they're zeroing out uh programs that are actually now costing the lives of people around the world because they're not getting the

food and the healthcare that they used to uh thanks to some of the programs that we used to run. So, our priorities are completely upside down. Standing up for this is another example of you living out your values and standing up

for what's right. And I'll just say on behalf of J Street that Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield, you guys represent the best uh of our values and the best of our people. And I say thank you not only

for the best ice cream in the world that I just eat all the time and love so much uh but also for doing what you do uh to make the world uh try to make the world a better place and to live up to the

values that you hold. So thank you for that. Well, thank you Jeremy. It's It's good to be in this together with you.

Absolutely. And and thanks to everybody who is uh joining us on Word on the Street Live. Uh please uh join us every week, usually Wednesdays 4 p.m. Eastern.

Please go out and uh buy some Ben & Jerry's and join the free Ben & Jerry's movement and uh check out upandarms.life and join us here at J Street as well. Uh I wish everybody a uh good uh holiday

week. End of Hanukkah just happened. We're coming up on Christmas, the New Year. So, happy holidays to everybody and their family and thank you again to Ben.

All right, take care.