Annie Jacobsen – The Government’s Classified Plan for B… — Transcript

I just love doing podcasts so much. It just gives somebody like me an opportunity to have a conversation. I mean, in the old days, you had to go on like a news program and talk for four minutes in between a commercial break.

They gave you four minutes, right? [laughter] That's generous. Yeah. Yeah. Podcasts have reach. Okay.

They gave you four minutes, right? [laughter] That's generous. Yeah. Yeah. Podcasts have reach. Okay.

ski in ski out. Couldn't be in more in the middle of nowhere in the Dolomite Mountains. [gasps] There with the whole family go to settle the bill with the night manager at the end of the thing. and he says to me, "I

Good story. Sean Ryan story. I'm in, uh, about podcast having reach. I'm an avid skier. I'm in the Italian Alps in February a few months ago. Okay. Skiing little hut like a, like a hotel that you ski in, ski out. Couldn't be more in the middle of nowhere in the Dolomite Mountains. [gasps] There with the whole family, go to settle the bill with the night manager at the end of the thing, and he says to me, "I have to say I really enjoyed seeing you on the Shawn Ryan Show podcast in the Italian Alps as God is my witness and my husband who was standing there, right?"

he said, "I'm a fan of the show and now I read your books." That's awesome. That's awesome.

And I said, "You're kidding." And he said, "No." And he said, "I'm a fan of the show and now I read your books." That's awesome. That's awesome.

at a small hotel in the mountains in in Italy would necessarily have in common with you or I and then you have that that is cool desire to communicate desire for information you know listening to a good podcast so congratulations to you

In the middle of the Italian Dolomite Mountains. I bet it's beautiful up there. It's gorgeous. But that's reach for you, and it's incredible to think about how much we are alike instead of, I mean, what really would you think the night manager at a small hotel in the mountains in Italy would necessarily have in common with you or I? And then you have that, that is cool desire to communicate, desire for information, you know, listening to a good podcast. So congratulations to you.

Awesome to have you back. I love talking to you. A I love talking to you.

I appreciate that. Well, it's good to have you back, Annie. Thank you. It's great to be here.

You've written best-selling books including Area 51, Operation Paperclip, The Pentagon's Brain, Surprise Kill, Vanish, Nuclear War: A Scenario, and your newest release, Biological Warfare: A Scenario. Everyone loved your last appearance on the show, so we'd love to have you back. And um I got to say,

Awesome to have you back. I love talking to you. I love talking to you.

mean, I don't think anything's going to happen. You mean is the war in Iran ratcheting up the threat of nuclear war, per se? I mean, you know, it's such a rabbit hole of a of a topic that war um I don't

So, let me give you an introduction here for anybody that missed the first episode. Annie Jacobson, you're a Pulitzer Prize finalist, investigative journalist, and New York Times best-selling author who spent your career uncovering some of the most secretive aspects of the US government.

is what if a nuclear war happens because you know Iran has almost had a bomb for a very long time. So it does seem to me like an easy I don't want to use the word excuse but I'm going to use the word excuse

You've written best-selling books including Area 51, Operation Paperclip, The Pentagon's Brain, Surprise Kill, Vanish, Nuclear War: A Scenario, and your newest release, Biological Warfare: A Scenario. Everyone loved your last appearance on the show, so we'd love to have you back. And, um, I got to say,

Which tick thing? There's which tick thing? The meat the alpha gall. I mean, we've got people trying to force us to eat fake meat, artificial meat, buying up all our farmland, then genetically altering insects, ticks. Now we have this alpha gall

Annie, I think your timelines are a little reversed here with the previous book, Nuclear War, and the new [laughter] Biological Warfare. But, um, what do you think about all this stuff going on, you know? I mean, in Iran, the nuclear—

I think that anything talking about bio is like circling around what could eventually be the drain unless something isn't done. So in a bizarre way bringing from where I sit who just loves information, loves sharing information, loves having conversations about not

I mean, I don't think anything's going to happen. You mean, is the war in Iran ratcheting up the threat of nuclear war, per se? I mean, you know, it's such a rabbit hole of a topic that war, um, I don't—

What is that one? I don't even heard of that. It just happened yesterday. And Legionaire's disease.

because Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapon, and because the alleged premise of that war is to keep Iran from having a nuclear weapon, it exists in a little bit of a different lane that I then I am really interested in reporting on, which

You know, local. And then the real question is it going to become a pandemic? Um, so I think that any of these subjects that bring it to people's attention, there's an Ebola epidemic going on right now in Africa. There was

is what if a nuclear war happens because, you know, Iran has almost had a bomb for a very long time. So it does seem to me like an easy—I don't want to use the word excuse, but I'm going to use the word excuse,

modified pathogen is than kind of either be terrified by it or uh politicize it because everybody is going to lose if there's a biological incident. Mhm. Mhm.

you know. Yeah. Well, I think, uh, you know, there is something that I wanted to, uh, relate to here. I mean, are you aware of the tick thing?

attack. It can also be an incident. So a lab leak, this sounds familiar. a very very high threat level situation for everybody. So again, it's like information, not panic. Pressure pressure to learn more.

Which tick thing? There's which tick thing? The meat, the alpha gall. I mean, we've got people trying to force us to eat fake meat, artificial meat, buying up all our farmland, then genetically altering insects, ticks. Now we have this alpha gall

blast zone. But I mean, one of the biggest takeaways that readers came back at me with after reading nuclear war as an area was, I just want to die in the immediate blast because, you know, it's like that Nikita

disaster going on right now. I don't know how many people have it, but what do you think of that?

this book is actually a little bit more frightening which is that so in nuclear war I take readers from nuclear launch to nuclear winter in 72 minutes. 72 minutes not days, minutes. That's how fast it could happen. According to

I think that anything talking about bio is like circling around what could eventually be the drain unless something isn't done. So in a bizarre way, bringing from where I sit, who just loves information, loves sharing information, loves having conversations about not

anarchy, insurrection. A common phrase I came across when looking at declassified documents was fear of infection will send America spiraling into anarchy and insurrection.

right, not wrong, uncertainty being a huge principle. I think whether it's the Legionnaire's disease that just broke out in New York City right now or the ticks you're talking about.

Do you prepare for this kind of stuff? I mean, you know, what does your house look like?

What is that one? I don't even heard of that. It just happened yesterday. And Legionnaire's disease.

but it is really helpful to know what you're up against. It's very helpful to know. Um I mean you want me to give you like the three basic ideas of of of bio to understand?

What is that? Like a small, you know, these are all pathogens that suddenly make their way into a small population. That is called an outbreak. And then the real question is, is it going to become an epidemic?

because if you try if you're like too knowledgeable on a subject sometimes you lose your audience. So, and we all lived through the COVID pandemic. So, whenever you're talking about a biological incident, three things.

You know, local. And then the real question is, is it going to become a pandemic? Um, so I think that any of these subjects that bring it to people's attention, there's an Ebola epidemic going on right now in Africa. There was

Okay. Third thing is, is there something I can take that will heal me? That's called medical countermeasure.

a Honda virus scare on that cruise ship in May. These things surface. People talk about them. They learn a little bit. To my eye, it's just so much more helpful to kind of learn basics about bio and what a bio, a genetically

of that, you the fear like for example your tick situation. A tick is called a vectorbor disease. So it has to bite you for you to be infected.

modified pathogen is than kind of either be terrified by it or, uh, politicize it because everybody is going to lose if there's a biological incident. Mhm. Mhm.

airborne pathogen because that is what all of government fears it's unstoppable the weapon essentially becomes the human l the weapons delivery system becomes the human lungs and you know and another really interesting thing to me learning about all this was that the uncertainty idea

And interestingly, because of course I write about war and weapons, you know, biological war is one of the only threats in the defense department world of sort of nomenclature and monographs and protocols that doesn't have to be an

in charge internationally were sending out tweets that said COVID not airborne OT in big letters I reprint one of their tweets in the book nice COVID not airborne it was airborne was airborne. And instead of admitting they were wrong or even out of the gate

attack. It can also be an incident. So a lab leak, this sounds familiar. A very, very high threat level situation for everybody. So again, it's like information, not panic. Pressure, pressure to learn more.

mind. I mean, we'll get into the book here in just a second, but if you if you looked at ancestry.com or like any of these, you know, these uh um my mind's going blank here, biometrics, you know, companies. And I mean, and who owns

I mean, they just—What would you rather go through? A nuclear war scenario or a biological pathogen that—Okay, first, because that could be—that could be a long, slow, painful death. I mean, so I guess so could nuclear war if you weren't in the

Absolutely. I mean individual targets are a whole other dirty game and historically that that has been going on for a very long time. The Soviets had huge assassination programs specifically, you know, creating like like bio poisons. Poisoning is like one of the

blast zone. But I mean, one of the biggest takeaways that readers came back at me with after reading Nuclear War as an area was, I just want to die in the immediate blast because, you know, it's like that Nikita

in Kosovo I believe and he Katab was his last name. Interesting. And he like opened up a letter or and and somehow licked it or closed the letter and that there was poison on it and he died. So there are these very

Khrushchev quote, the survivors would envy the dead. In many ways, bio has that same component, probably because of what you said, that you just think of having this like long, slow, painful death. But the reality I learned when researching and reporting

more complex and threatening because now you're talking about multiple agencies and stove piping. But you have um you know you have airborne pathogens that can be gen or rather you have pathogens that can be genetically modified to your point

this book is actually a little bit more frightening, which is that, so in nuclear war, I take readers from nuclear launch to nuclear winter in 72 minutes. 72 minutes, not days, minutes. That's how fast it could happen. According to

Viruses and bacteria are both pathogens. Germs are everywhere. We have germs in our stomachs. Germs are not necessarily bad.

Stratcom, in biological war, I take the readers from outbreak to anarchy in six days because anarchy and insurrection is the real threat. And that was shocking to learn again from the defense department. And you're talking about in the homeland,

Plague, which I use as the pathogen in my book, that scenario. Plague is a bacteria.

anarchy, insurrection. A common phrase I came across when looking at declassified documents was fear of infection will send America spiraling into anarchy and insurrection.

Now with genetic modification you can tweak the plague pathogen which is called urinia pestus so that it is immune to the antibiotics.

Fear of infection. There's just something so visceral about this idea of being infected.

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Do you prepare for this kind of stuff? I mean, you know, what does your house look like?

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but it is really helpful to know what you're up against. It's very helpful to know. Um, I mean, you want me to give you like the three basic ideas of bio to understand?

easier to get it released. I mean, I don't I don't I'm not a scientist or anything, but you know, you see um you know, all the things that are being created right now.

Yeah. Okay. Because like sometimes the—I write for like everybody. Like just give it to me so I can understand it. That's the questions I ask the smartest people in the room, and it's what I try to convey

They're big. They're making bioluminescent plants that can [clears throat] glow whatever color they want, which is uh amazing. You know, some of the use. I mean, he was saying, you know, you could put these things around put these plants

because if you try, if you're like too knowledgeable on a subject, sometimes you lose your audience. So, and we all lived through the COVID pandemic. So, whenever you're talking about a biological incident, three things.

because it was so early on. But I mean, it's it like something you would see in that movie, The Avatar.

How might I get it? How—that's transmissibility. How might I get it? How deadly is it? Okay. COVID 1% death rate. One out of 100 people died. Flu, .1%.

at the heart of all of this debate, discussion, science moving forward, which is dual use. So yes, if you're able to create plants that can detect radiation leakage, that's another form of an intelligence vehicle like what's called Mazin, you

Okay. Third thing is, is there something I can take?

would be the plants and that would be terrific for us because it's a way of you know understanding what an adversary is up to in the biomed world. The reason you have genetic modification the reason this all began and by the way it was kind of

discovered invented in 1971 in a lab in California at Stanford. um genetic modification. So the idea of those scientists, they certainly weren't weapons engineers. They were like, we're going to be able to create incredible medical counter measures in the same way

that penicellin itself was a medical counter measure and stopped infection. You know, so many soldiers died in World War II because of wound infection.

Penicellin comes along. Fantastic. you've taken, you've knocked out all of so many bacteria deaths.

So that's the idea if you're, you know, a doctor, if you're trying to do good in the world or trying to kind of keep the world in balance. But the other side of dual use is weaponizing something. And

one of the original sort of components I saw after I wrote nuclear war and I was like, am I really going to touch bio? And I had had many sources saying to me, Annie, you've got to write about it because it's more

threatening. There's a threat spectrum diagram that I found an unclassified version of it in looking through the defense department documents and it shows all the weapons of mass destructions on a scale. And of course, nuclear weapons are at the worst end of

because they are the most destructive. But boweapons are considered by the defense department the greatest overall threat.

Really greatest overall threat. That is shocking. That needs to be discussed. Yeah. And it's because the bar for entry is so low. You know, think about what think about we've had nuclear technology for 80 years now. Weapons technology. There's an incredibly low

bar for I mean a high bar for entry. You can't just make a nuclear bomb in your basement.

Boweapons people will now tell you that like a high school student with limited biology can essentially do some genetic tweaks to create this kind of thing. So the accident absolutely that is that sounds alarmist. It's true. That is like worthy

of a discussion in and of itself. That's basically everybody. Everybody. Yeah. High school students compete in sort of science courses doing genetic tweaks.

I had no idea. High school's come along [laughter] way since I was I was dissecting frogs. You know, we're not doing genetic modifications.

[laughter] Wow. Wow. So, where do we start today? Where do you want to start?

Where do you want to start? What was your inspiration? Your original inspiration. Yeah. Oh god, what a funny word, right? I mean, inspiration for writing a book about the end of the world, you know, um the the fact that uh biological war is

considered a near extin potentially a near extinction level event. That's the nomenclature. a near ele um and I but I think you know inspiration I am a storyteller I am really interested in telling a dramatic narrative I want people to read what I

write and it's not necessarily meant to terrify them but [clears throat] maybe to put pressure on you know government people um but the most shocking part about it for me was that there are plans in place like nuclear war. There are plans in

place for this kind of a near extinction level event [gasps] which I you know spoiler alert on the end of this book where I take the readers through you know outbreak to anarchy in six days.

What happens after anarchy is an actual government plan called devolution. Devolution pronounced two different ways depending on who's saying it. evolution with a D in front of it. It's exactly like you would think. Wait, what?

Evolution moving forward. Devolution is going back. So, it's a government plan. The name Devolution is unclassified. The program is classified.

I had the man who wrote signed off on the last version of it take me right up Obama's FEMA director Craig Fugate. Take take me, you readers, right up to the edge of what can legally be known. that

this program exists so that after anarchy and insurrection happens, which will we can get into why a essentially secret government disappears off into a bunch of bunkers called hot sites, warm sites, and cold sites to hunker down so that they can rebuild

the government once everybody dies. Real real program. I saw that. So who a lot of questions here. So who who determines who this who who who this is?

It is a pre-chosen pre-desated list of people. Now that list is classified. Who is on that list is classified. How that list is determined is classified. But I'm glad we're talking about this because let's speculate because that's all we

can do here. I would guess it certainly changes by administration, right? In other words, the current president is not going to have a bunch of former president Biden's designates go off and run the government. So then you really think about it like wow

imagine being in that room um deciding okay who are essentially there's kind of like a mirror image person of every highranking official because you have to assume okay pus could get the airborne bacteria in his lungs and die so who's

going to be the devolution pus the national security adviser the sect deaf right so all of these individuals And by the way, it's not just defense department. It's health officials. It's, you know, Supreme Court justices. It's the government has to

run. So then I mean you have the eyebrow raising side that I had which is wow that's a lot of plan. If there's that much planning that goes into catastrophe, why don't we have more public awareness about how to not have

this happen? We'll get into that discussion. It's called de dee evvolution. Devolution. Devolution. Devolution.

And we don't know how often I mean is there there's a lot of conspiracies on who really runs the government. They're running wild right now. They ran wild in the last administration as well. I mean on probably every administration that

comes uh there'll be this question. You think there's a possibility that maybe uh they don't get picked?

Maybe they're the ones that are running everything. You mean the actual devolution is already in effect and taking care of things? I that I don't know. It's certainly it's certainly an interesting thought experiment, you know. Um, I mean, I also think conspiracy theory is

such a bad term. I think it should be changed to speculative narrative. I love that because I mean, for example, when COVID happened on top of the WHO and the CDC saying CO not airborne when it was airborne. So, they got the most basic,

most important, most critical fact wrong. And by the way, they've never admitted it. they've just they just quietly changed the idea that CO was airborne about a year later.

So, and there's that and then there was the lab leak component of things which separate from what you think about that um is a real possibility. Okay. And yet, when that was first reported, it was actually called a conspiracy theory by

major news outlets. And we know it wasn't a conspiracy theory. So why not change that verbiage to speculative narrative? It just takes everybody way down off the ledge. You can even say, you know, if you talking about, you can

say it's a wildly speculative narrative. But to call something a conspiracy theory, I think is such self-righteous indignation and so potentially dangerous because once you say that, you have a really tough time walking it back and admitting you're wrong.

And that the CIA created that term. Correct. Uh conspiracy theory, didn't they? I don't I don't know that. I have heard many different things. I think I would.

Or is that a speculative narrative? [laughter] Good. Look at that. Change the change the change the thinking and the way people talk right here and now on the Shan Ryan Show podcast. But you know what I mean? It gives room for being

wrong. There's something really really character building about being able to keep yourself open to I might be wrong about this. And I don't know why it has disappeared from the government.

I just really don't know. I mean, there's a famous JFK quote after the Bay of Pigs, which is a failure. Okay? And JFK said something like, you know, I'm paraphrasing, like success has a thousand fathers, failure is an orphan.

And he was admitting his mistake in the Bay of Pigs. the CIA paramilitary attempt at invading Cuba that failed, you know, drastically.

He was admitting defeat. He was admitting being wrong. And I think that's profoundly important.

It's part of all of our personal lives, certainly mine. I mean, right. You got to be able to with your kids.

I I do it all the time publicly. I've had to do it two or three times this year, unfortunately. But, you know, I think I think you know, it's it's it's that's why we're in the big distrust era of the government and all

of our institutions and pretty much everything right now is because nobody has been able to admit wrong. And you know the funny thing is is you know it it it instantaneously reestablishes your credibility and even lifts it more

because people realize oh this person actually has a moral compass. Yes. This person actually lives by a set of values.

Yes. And is you can't say for anybody in government because they never do. They're they're they're too proud. There's too much pride.

Pride goeth before the fall. I mean, I just think about pride is ego. Um, which or the unhealthy part of ego. Maybe the healthy part of ego is uncertainty. You know, being able to say like, you know, I don't know, but I think it's this. Um,

I still cannot I could not get a straight I'm always trying to get a straight answer from government officials on these certain questions like that like asking the CDC why have you never admitted you were wrong about you know co not airborne and they won't

they won't go there um so people mistrust you've asked them I always ask what do they say do they just I mean usually you get ignored on those questions right they I mean it's why I spend spend so much of my time

interviewing former SEC staff, you know, former Stratcom commander, former FEMA chief, because once they are out of government, they're really out of the cat bird seat, which is kind of fair that when you are in a government position, you have to tow the party

line. You can't really answer a straight question without going to 10 press officers and finding out what you're supposed to say.

And maybe that, you know, is understandable in some component, but it also should change because people, I think, are advancing way beyond that in their own personal lives. You know, just the ability to get information on your fingertips is just so much faster now

than it ever was that the government needs to adapt to that. You know, we'll get back to you an answer on that. And then six weeks later, they're giving you the answer and the question has already changed.

What about what else about this devolution? I mean, it was Was it Was that a surprise to you?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've heard that term referenced, but it's always it's it's referenced without any information attached to it because it's the only thing that's declassified. I was really kind of stunned that Craig Fugate was able to really share with me what he did

because he signed off on the 2016 version of it, the last day of the Obama administration and that is the set of protocols from which all updates are made. So the system hasn't changed. the names on the list might um but you know

there are other really really interesting details I learned like okay again spoiler alert right um the president gets moved in the event of a major biological catastrophe where people are there is a pathogen that has a case fatality rate of 100% I

told you co had 1% plague, not bubonic plague, but pneumonic plague, which is pneumonic pneumonia. So in the lungs, when plague goes into the lungs, not bubonic plague, if you get bitten by a tick, you get bubonic plague. Your lymph nodes swell

up and it, you know, [clears throat] it sort of takes over parts of the body, your lymph system. Pneumonic plague in the lungs, 100% case fatality rate. 100% 100%.

You get it, you die. Unless you take antibiotics, you have to take antibiotics within 24 hours. Within 24 hours. By the way, I have one of my major sources on the book is one of the world's experts on bubonic

plague, pneumonic plague, Dr. Henry Hine. He was at US Samrred, which is at Fort Dietrich, um, studying this for a very long time until he left. Now he works privately.

So all of this information is like fully sourced. But the big fear I'm going looping back to the president here.

Big fear of Defense Department, CDC, HHS. All of these organizations would be involved in a bioevent.

Something a pathogen is released either a lab leak or an attack. It's airborne and it has a case fatality rate of 100%.

Okay. Then I said the medical counter measures. How are we going to stop it?

Well, what if it has been genetically modified to defeat antibiotics? Again, sounds like Annie's talking science fiction. There are plans in place because this is what is feared.

I'm sure there are. In this event, the president, I learned this is like, you know, sometimes you get information and you go, I got to reverse engineer my book from that because this is just too dramatic. The president does not get moved to a big

bunker like Raven Rock or Mount Weather. Any of these command centers we can talk about if you want more details. He gets moved to like what's called a cold site, like really far away by himself.

It's such a crazy visual to think about the president of the United States with a gas mask by himself in a room, his military aid with the nuclear football out the door, outside the door, and a couple secret service agents

watching the building. For how long? I mean, that to me sounds like science fiction.

Mhm. to realize it's science fact is like I got to know about this and that's how I work as a reporter like okay so how how does that happen I mean who who are there you know that's the end of democracy

yeah I'd like to go back a little bit and talk about maybe the biological arms race before we get to this but I mean arise I mean who who Who do they think they're going to even govern? You know, I mean,

the trillionaires that are building the billionaires and and trillionaire that are building bunkers in Hawaii, what are they going to do? Come out of your bunker and do what? Like, what are you going to govern Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg? I don't think so.

They're not being governed right now. And you got to think of the skills you have to have to survive in that kind of a world. Okay, so biological armsways.

Here's an interesting fact. Biological war is illegal. Biological weapons are illegal. Nuclear weapons are not illegal.

Crazy thought. Okay. Okay. There's only a certain amount of countries that have them and they're making sure no one else gets them, hence Iran.

But nuclear weapons are not illegal to those who hold them. Mhm. Biological weapons. All biological weapons are illegal. They were made illegal by a treaty called the biological weapons convention. The BWC is the treaty in 1972.

Before that, the United States had a massive arsenal of nuclear of biological weapons, which is just crazy to think about. That's cold war paranoia for you.

We had them. Russia had them. China was building them. North Korea. So they became illegal. President Nixon decided they're repugnant to the conscience of mankind. That's what he said. Okay. And makes them illegal. Illegal. Everyone s we destroyed our biological weapons. It

took 219 weeks to destroy them, by the way. [snorts] So everybody says we're going to destroy our weapons, biological weapons. Everybody signs the treaty. Not for another 20 years would the United States learn from Soviet defector scientists that the Russians

went like this. Oh yeah, here we signed that treaty. And then they began to build a colossal biological weapons program. They called it their Manhattan Project.

And the idea, which is so spooky, is that they wanted to kill all the people in America and the West and leave the infrastructure intact. Those were their words.

Interesting. Smart and interesting and evil. I mean, you know, we were talking about ancestry.com, 23 andMe.

Yeah. Who knows what else is out there that people are using, but I mean, would you say an arsenal of biological? How many how many bio how many different types of biological weapons do you need? Is did can they I mean I'm sure they can I

mean can they can they in you know by by sucking that DNA out or LabCore you know the biggest blood diagnostics company in the world.

I mean can they get that information hack that information or just sell it? I mean, I think 23 and me and Ancestry and probably all the other ones have sold all the data most multiple times [clears throat] allegedly.

But uh is it possible to create a biological weapon that would only target American DNA, Canadian DNA, North American DNA, Latino DNA, black DNA, uh yeah, any race there is. And that, by the way, this is not something I get into in the book. It

was a little too uh speculative narrative for me to really go down. Okay, but let me tell you who to that was confirmed. I asked that exact question to Admiral Brett Dar and he was the assistant secretary of health and

human services at the White House during CO. Okay. He's also a medical doctor. He ran DARPA's bioscience office. He's an incredible human being. He's like a he's a character in the book for sure. I mean, he's really a remarkable person,

you know, grew up in a small town in Texas, first guy in his town to go to Harvard. Um, you know, fully dedicated to service his whole life. He I asked him that question and he said to to me

after a bit of a pause, yes. And there are suspicions that China is doing that.

So, the suspicions part of it is where I make a distinction for Annie as a journalist. I'm going to work my scenario from what is known, what is on the record and what has been confirmed by people on the other side

because then I can never be accused of like fearmong like if I were to go down that lane perhaps people would say well you're fear-mongering because it's speculative because you don't know for sure right now when you have someone like Admiral

Gerard saying it's speculative the subtext in that you and I can infer what that means.

I don't think someone like that is going to say something like that to me off the cuff without a little more fear, shall we say, than speculation.

So, there's speculative rumors that China is creating this or has created it. Yes. And there's also never been so happy to have Asian blood.

[laughter] Yes. Really? How is that? How? You got to tell me that. How is that? because I'm part Japanese.

Wow. Yeah, I'm good. I never knew that. Mom or dad? Dad. Dad. Interesting. Um, okay. So, you got the DNA immunity perhaps. If that's the case, hopefully.

Um, there's a very interesting paper for anyone who's interested in reading on this. So, Dr. Robert Cadlick source in the book. He was in he was he is now the current administration essentially the biod defense chief.

He was dedicated to biod defense starting in the Bush administration has had huge powerful jobs across every administration. He actually ran operation warp speed during COVID which was the vaccine program. He's an air force colonel and a medical doctor and

he's now the current president's biodefense chief. So he, you know, we had conversation before and then you when you go back into the administration, you can't really talk to a journalist like me.

But right before going back into the administration, he wrote a paper on Chinese on China's bio biological program.

So the state department speculates China has a bioweapons program. The State Department confirms that Russia has a bioweapons program. North Korea has a bioweapons program. According to the US State Department, China maybe, Iran, maybe. That's what they say.

Maybe. They say maybe. I mean, I'm sorry. What was the Wuhan lab? So, here's maybe.

And again, we're talking about um language. What about Ukraine? We're talking about language. Those are our biolabs. Those those were some of ours. So the position of the of the state department is that the Russian biological program I told you about that

very evil program in the 70s and 80s was absorbed not dismantled and so that is why they take the position Russia still has a program and China. So let me this this is how a diplomat would clarify maybe

that con the treaty I told you about the BWC which everybody is supposed to adhere to all the signitories and not have bioweapons there's a tiny goaround which is that you can do genetic engineering for defensive purposes for prophylactic

purposes is m and so that's where you get the Wuhan excuse which is that we were modifying the corona virus so that we would know how to defend against it you see so that's the kind of catch 22 in plain

language I call it a hookie do which allows these BSL4 labs biosafety level four that's the highest level guys in space suits to manipulate viruses and pathogens in really dangerous ways So that in case somebody else uses it,

we know how to defend against it and that has its own longer conversation and it's extremely dangerous. It's called gain of function. It's just like it sounds. You are trying to make a pathogen gain new function. Mentioned before virilence,

transmissibility, how do we catch it? Virilence is it going to kill me and how fast? And is there a medical countermeasure? those three components.

Gain of function tweaks those. Okay. So, let's make it more airborne. Let's make it from droplet transmission, which would be me coughing at you and you, you know, sorry for the my spit hitting you. That's droplet transmission versus us talking. Airborne, lingering

in the air. Somebody else could walk in here after we leave. Airborne, it's still here. That's the number one threat. You can with gain of function genetic engineering you can make a pathogen airborne. Whoa.

What are the different kinds? Do you know of pathogens of bioweapons? Well, pathogens. Bioweapons.

Yeah. There I mean great question and again stuff we should know about right because then we can we the public can react appropriately as opposed to starting creating speculative narratives about what could happen. Ebola, for example, you know, the haunt virus,

right? So, the CDC keeps a list of what are called tier one common term select agents. Those are the pathogens that they're most afraid will be weaponized.

Subtext have been weaponized in the past. They probably have speculative intelligence are being weaponized.

Plague is one of them. Why? 100% death rate if you don't have antibiotics. Anthrax is another.

Um, Ebola is another because it's got fear factor. Ebola is not airborne. So, but what if you could tweak Ebola to be airborne?

What is what what does Ebola do to you? Ebola is called a hemorrhagic fever virus, right? So, think of what hemorrhaging is. You're just bleeding.

It's bleeding. Okay. Ebola causes the body, the entire body to hemorrhage. You're bleeding out your eyes, your ears, your nose. I mean, it is a horrific, terrifying disease. It's also not airborne. It's you get Ebola from close contact. If if there's somebody

over there in that corner bleeding out, you know, if you're a first responder, you may go help them. That's why doctors, first responders, if you're the patient's mother, that's why the loved ones die from Ebola.

But the guy walking down the street is not going to get Ebola because he's going to keep his distance.

Mhm. So that's again takes us back to transmissibility. It takes us to virulence. Ebola is a 85 90% rate killer.

So it's super deadly. Is there a medical counter measure against it? Third question to ask. Well, after the 2014 Ebola epidemic, doctors got at it. Those same kind of doctors that Dr. Cadlick worked with with Warp Speed, doctors got

at it. They created in San Diego a medical countermeasure called Zmap. So when one Ebola patient arrived in Texas in 2014 and gave his two nurses Ebola, he died because he was further along.

Those two nurses in this heroics that is completely unknown but involves Dr. Admiral Gerard, which is why I know the story. He knew about the Zmap medical countermeasure being developed in San Diego. The CDC in Texas wouldn't help him. It hadn't been

authorized. He got a friend who was a pilot and had a plane to fly to San Diego, get the Zmap, brought it back, gave it to the nurses. They lived.

Wow. Now, this new form of Ebola in Africa has mutated and the Zmap doesn't work.

Will doctors, will scientists be able to create a medical counter measure fast enough before that epidemic that is going on in Africa become, you know, grows and becomes bigger? Who knows?

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when you're writing and doing this research, I mean, do you do you have you thought about if you were to create a boweapon, what it would look like?

Me? I mean, this is what I This is what I do. I've been thinking about it the entire conversation. I already know what I would do now.

Tell me. Have you thought about it? I I think about that. It's a fascinating question. I think about that from the dramatic narrative point of view, working from what is scientifically possible. So that's why I chose pneumonic plague and even more so the

reason why I chose pneumonic plague is for a very specific reason that when when the Soviet defectors came finally revealed to the west what the Russians had been doing and mind you this is 30 40 years ago when genetic engineering

was not possible. They had created a super plague weapon airborne to with plans to be genetically modified.

This is early genetic engineering like almost like imagine using scissors to cut film and taping it back together as opposed to digital editing today. That would be the analogy of where things were. They the Russian the Soviet scientists by their own admittance

created a a plague weapon that they had built in. And they had genetically modified it to defeat antibiotics and even worse to actually trigger a new disease encphilitis in the brain once you take the antibiotic. And by the

Russian scientist's own admittance, the reason they did that was because they hated America so much in the Cold War.

Not only did they want to kill all the people and take the infrastructure, march in and just take everything. The buildings would be there unlike in nuclear, but they wanted people to die with the last thought in their brain

that the government had failed them because the antibiotics that the American medical establishment and the government told Americans to take to defeat the plague weapon would kill them in an even more horrific way. This was their plan. This is on the books. This

is documented. So to answer your question, I couldn't come up with anything more sinister than that myself.

And I wanted to stick to science fact. And so that's the very specific pathogen that gets unleashed in biological war scenario, my book. And by the way, it's not a nefarious act. It's a lab leak.

Wow. I don't you know I think what I would do is I would have stages maybe you do something that is an attention grabber like co maybe you make a pathogen that tits the reproductive system and then you get the news cycle going

and it's oh we can't you know what I mean no nobody in North America can can reproduce anymore. And but you have the antidote. You let the headlines percolate.

This is why you're not reproducing because I've created this. And if you want the antidote, then your government is going to do X, Y, and Z. Maybe it's something even quicker. You know, maybe maybe it's maybe it is something like

COVID. If you want to get better, this is what you're going to do. If you try to nuke us, you won't get the antidote.

So this is what's going to happen. If you don't listen, then we're going to go to the next step and we're going to prove to you that it's real and this is what's going to happen to your body.

Then that happens. Then everybody's they know, you know, and then it just keeps escalating. If you want to save human life and or give them the option to save themselves, that's that's how I would do it. And that's a very sort of

redteameing mind scenario, which is what war games at the Pentagon, from my understanding, are entirely based on like getting people to think through those incredibly sinister ideas to try and have a plan in place to prevent that from happening. And so in

my experience and learning about of all this what is what's interesting about this is that is all very valuable and that's sort of historical red teaming and wargaming but what has been left out of the discussion are two major components

which is one how fast science and technology are moving so you can't possibly keep up with it although yours did a the three-stage thing is like really sinister and you know very scientific.

Well, it also gives them the option to save themselves. Explain to me that a little bit more on the third part of it on my plan.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My plan is you get the attention. Okay. Everybody knows something's up. Then you take credit for what's happening.

Okay. Is the bad guy. Yeah. Is [clears throat] the bad guy or the good guy.

Okay. I mean, maybe there is genocide going on somewhere in the world, okay? Like we see all over right now, right?

And then the country that's committing genocide gets a pathogen. It makes their people sick. They're not dying. Maybe some die, you know what I mean? But it get it grabs that nation's headlines.

And then you make the statement, if you don't want this to continue, you stop the genocide right now.

If the genocide continues, then we'll move to stage two. Stage two is you bleed out of every orphice in your body.

Would you like that to happen? Yes or no? You have two hours. Mhm. And this is two hours goes by, they don't do it. The next pathogen is released. It's already staged.

It stops. They get the antidote that gets released. Mhm. These are some of the hallmarks of early biological warfare thinking with another component mixed in which is that you would need to inoculate give a vaccine essentially to your own people that

would be anywhere near that area to make sure they didn't Well, that's dependent if you you know if if you target a certain race of people that all share a common strand of DNA.

Yes. And this is exactly what that cold war mentality was by the way, right? It was really uh it's almost like mental, you know, hostage taking essentially on a grand scale. And then the conclusion by pretty much everyone

involved was the blowback idea was that you couldn't you couldn't contain it because the pathogen would have to be contagious to be, you know, really effective. And then you you would have these co-cententric circles of people getting sick. So that's where kind of

biological warfare became obsolete in terms of thinking. Mhm. And that's why they made it illegal. But people still think about that.

And now with scientific advancements with genetic engineering being able to target individual people is becoming much more of a reality. And by the way that's what I meant to say in Dr. Cadlick's paper he's the current biodefense chief.

There's a public paper you can read that he wrote on China's what he believes is China's uh or rather what's on the record about China's biological program and they h the Chinese officials in the defense their defense department have

essentially said they are not against they are actually pl you know programs in place for precisely the kind of warfare that you're talking about.

I mean, it's that just it's been this is this is what God did to the Egyptians in the Old Testament. Correct.

It is a narrative that is that has existed and it's like, you know, where does it go? The the the argument not to have that is it's too evil and it's it has the consequences are too great.

Hence the idea that is you know odious to the nature of mankind. So the bigger idea that I think we're getting to is like so what is the solution if all of this is possible?

What is the solution? And right now we're kind of I think stuck in this idea of like well the debate is really only on the gain of function right the debate is like we need the the bad guys are

making those kind of weapons maybe even targeting a certain genetic population and so we have to create medical counter measures because of it and if that you know if you think that's utopian or dystopian that's a worthy debate I think because

I've heard arguments on both sides of the aisle like you cannot prevent the bad guys, the adversary, whoever they may be, terrorist organizations, um some crazy college kid in or high school student in his basement. You can't prevent them. You can't prevent

all evil. The threshold's too low. So the biotechnology industry must prevail, must be allowed to work on these medical counter measures that involve tweaking the virulence, the transmissibility and the medical countermeasures of different pathogens.

Either way, I think it's very important that people know about this so that in the god-forsaken event, something does happen, there's not an immediate, wildly speculative narrative, right?

So, does the government have any counter measures for uh the citizens of this country or is it just for themselves?

Well, the countermeasure question, the reason why I use that Soviet sort of evil concept, it's called a chimera weapon, bioweapon. The chimera is this ancient Greek monster. You've seen images of it. Like, think of a the head of a lion and the

tail of a serpent or with a goat coming out of it. A chimera just means like a multi-spie monster.

And that is essentially what genetic engineering is. You're taking the DNA of one viral species and you're mixing it with another. And so the Chimera weapon, the original Chimera weapon was this plague super weapon that would you take

the antidote and it turns into a booby trap and it kills you. So, you know, that idea becomes what the defense department calls a wicked problem because there is no solution to it.

Because how do you know whether or not the antibiotic is going to kill you unless you have evidence?

And that's where the devolution plan happens pretty much really fast because the chances can't be taken because the threat's so high.

And so on the public health side of things, you have a lot of people instead of saying, well, this is you can't just go down the evil rabbit hole of the military, you know, industrial complex of it, you have to have public health

awareness. And that's why there are a lot of people I interviewed in the book who are like, it's all about diagnostics. Diagnostics, fancy word for testing, you know? I mean remember in COVID by the end of COVID year two or

whatever it was I live in Los Angeles you could buy a COVID test at the 7-Eleven remember did you have that access kind of year you could literally we may have I don't know I the test didn't work I I got I I never wanted to

get tested anyways because you know there was the there was the speculative narratives that they were calling you after you got tested to make sure you know that that you that you know [clears throat] whatever ever. And um but my wife was pregnant at the time.

Nobody really knew what the hell was going on. And um and um so I did I I did get tested and I took two tests and one was positive and one was negative and the speculative narratives were correct. I

did get calls and Wow. You took them at like a urgent care? Yeah, I took it at an urgent care.

Wow. Yeah. and uh you know so so I I never took another and that was before that so yeah I guess that was if I could have uh done something undocumented then I would have done something undocumented because I don't I don't want my

information in the government's hands but um not that it isn't already but so no we didn't we didn't have the over-the-counter tests at that particular point in time which would have been around 2021.

So in big cities they were that you you could suddenly literally buy a dip they were called dipstick tests and you could sit in your car and test yourself and then you were supposed to because there were asymptomatic people in CO meaning

people who carried COVID the SARS KV2 virus it's called officially and didn't have any symptoms like my son. So then you were supposed to work on the honor system of like not being around anybody because you were a carrier. It's called

a silent carrier. You could get everybody else sick, but you weren't sick. Mhm. But I think your point about not wanting the government to know is so incredibly important that the government has to learn from these errors. They have to

work with the public. People do not want the sense that the government is lurking over them and looming over them, particularly with their health. It's the bio, it's like the bio technology surveillance military-industrial complex and it's very real. But I found an

interesting loophole in it that I drill on into the book which I'm sure will raise raise some eyebrows from some groups of people and I don't care which is that so there's a after 911 Dick Cheney himself was like personally

terrified of boweapons and he was part and parcel to this extreme elevation escalation I mean of of you know gain of function of medical countermeasures of opening up more biocurity level four labs of all of the sort of biotech ind.

Billions of dollars went into this industry, this brand new industry. Remember there was 9/11. People forget then there were the anthrax attacks.

Anthrax was mailed through the mail to some news outlets and a couple senators on Capitol Hill. Never been solved.

Thank you FBI. Um okay. um literally I mean that's a given okay so um it created an entire industry about biod defense and one of the one of the results of that was there is many people don't know about this there

is a something called the national syndromeic syndrome surveillance system that monitors that collects information in real time from se more than 7,000 emergency rooms, urgent care facilities, yours included, all of these facilities across America, 7,000 of them in the 50

states. That is a lot. All the information goes in near real time to the CDC where it is kept and monitored. Okay? So it's a very real system that is monitoring people.

The goal of which was to create stop a pandemic if it happens. Well, how did that work out in co not well? But a little loophole I found in it which is you know when you know this from your

work in the military that a hole is exactly what an adversary targets and a fascinating hole to me is that and this I learned from working with the world's or America's most senior epidemiologists people who are trying to

prevent like outbreaks from taking over and one of the holes in the system that they pointed out to me was the homeless population. There are 800,000 homeless people in America. None of their information goes into that important CDC

national syndrome. A fact confirmed with me by HHS by the way. Wow. So if you have that kind of a gaping hole, where are you going to target?

Where are the super spreader events? Where is there no healthcare? Where are these people living on top of one another? Where are their symptoms of disease going to be mistaken for a zillion other things if they even have

any access to a medical doctor? And so that is where I have the outbreak in America because I was told by epidemiologists that is a very serious warning.

With the last two books you've written, I cannot believe you're still living in Los Angeles. [laughter] You got to get out to the woods, Andy.

I mean, driving around here, it's very beautiful, I have to [laughter] say. You know, we get a little walking around room out here.

Mhm. But, you know, the idea of insurrection and anarchy at the end of all of this, which is what happens, which is what the defense department is preparing for. Mhm.

Um, sure the big cities are just like, get me out of here really fast. But there is there are components of all of this. Um, you know, I did in in in every book there's always a couple interviews, a

couple things that people say to you that just is haunting. And one of them was from former Senate Majority Leader Tom Dashel.

So, I just mentioned the anthrax attacks after 9/11. Dashel's office received an envelope of weaponized anthrax.

They all got an immediate dose of cypro, which is an antibiotic assumed to kill anthrax and it did. Um, but Dashel, Senator Tom Dashel has spent decades since working on biod defense. He obviously is seriously concerned about this issue. And in my interview with

him, he said to me, we were talking about nuclear war versus bowar. And he said to me, "Unlike nuclear war, biological war will be perhaps more terrifying because," and then he said, "Yes, it will be death physically, death

governmentally, death of everything we know in America. But most horrifying is it will be, this is his quote, people doing inhuman things to other people just to survive.

Mhm. And that's that desperation. Desperation. This happens in in in any pretty much any event. I mean, eventually people get deal with hunger, thirst, disease.

Absolutely. Financial collapse. And so out in the country, in the city, you know, pick your battle, literally.

And again, the point of the of [clears throat] me working on these kind of scenarios is not to create panic.

It's to create pressure. It's to create conversation. You know, if nuclear war was about we need to have this conversation while we can still have it. Bio is about stay informed.

You know because there is there are actions that people have to take in the event that this kind of a situation happens.

Period. Full stop. I mean we you could look co could have been this brilliant situation from which to learn errors.

Notice I said could have been. M instead it's like either total denial about what happened or you know tribal anger about you know the wrongs that were done and there were many and so that I think is worth

re-examining. I think it's really would be really wise to look at the problems that happened in CO and not make those same mistakes. Well, I mean, there's a lot of speculative narratives that that that that say that maybe that was

that [clears throat] was an experiment to see how the population would react. I have not heard that one. The speculative narrative on that is that it's internal, domestic, or external.

I don't know if it could be both, you know, could be none. But uh but I mean a lot of those narratives running around I mean they wanted to see how the people reacted and if they if they basically if

they listen to the government or if they do not listen to the government and uh you know I don't know I mean they definitely learned a lot whoever if it was an experiment even if it wasn't an experiment they learned a lot

about how we're going to react Are we going to take the vaccines? Are we going to do the I mean, they learned that, are we going to stay in our homes?

How long are we going to stay in our homes? How long are we going to buy this [ __ ] You know, I mean, they collected a lot of information there.

A lot of information. And I'm going to really tap into your fear about the national syndroic surveillance system here. Again, it's a fact that think about and I'm amazed that people don't ask this question. Where did all the DNA data go

from those COVID tests? Because it was collected. Uhhuh. And so my eye as the journalist is like, why isn't I mean, I've certainly have asked a zillion people. Um, what I do know is that HHS, so again an organization most

people have never heard of, maybe they heard of it during CO US Department of Health and Human Services, current Secretary RFK Jr., okay, an organization that most people have never heard of that has a budget, an annual budget twice that of the Defense

Department. Really? twice that twice $1.7 or8 trillion dollar is HHS defense department is about 900 million and yet nobody people don't even know what the CDC answers to HHS the NIH the National Institute of Health answers to HHS

the FDA answers to HHS Yes. Another situation I'm always fond of is like bringing to the discussion, oh, there are some really interesting organizations that you might want to know about. And again, speculative narrative versus science fiction, science fact.

HHS is the organization in charge in the event of a biological incident or attack. Crazy that it and a biological incident is a lab leak. Okay. HHS is in charge which is stunning to think about because what I learned also writing this whole

narrative is like I actually wish DoD was in charge. Really? Why is that? I mean, there's a line I write in the book like kind of at the midpoint where I'm like where I, you know, and again, I take you through what

happens. I take you try, you know, the defense department trying to figure out what's going on, what's what's happened.

I have I start the the inciting incident in the book is an explosion at a BSL4 lab in Russia in Siberia. It's called Vector. It's where a lot of the work took place during the Cold War. It's a

real lab. There was actually a real explosion there in 2019. An explosion at a BSL4 lab is profoundly dangerous.

At a place like Russia where they're going to immediately not be transparent, it's even more dangerous. Or maybe you could say that about every every nation, but in the you know, the cover up begins. And I I've got I show you how I

show readers how the defense department will be immediately eyes on trying to figure out what's going on. They will work with the State Department to try and get information. Information is king. Denial is dangerous. In the Wuhan lab leak or natural, whatever you want

to call it, when Wuhan happened, the Chinese government immediately shut down access to information. Incredibly dangerous. I spoke to epidemiologists who actually believe that pandemic could have been stopped had the Chinese government been transparent about what happened.

So that's a real plug for transparency. And the more people that know about something, the more they're going to demand transparency.

But do you think they wanted to shut that down? The big You mean the You think they wanted to contain it?

Did they want to contain it? That I don't know. But what I do know is because biological weapons are illegal.

If any nation has bioweapons in their lab, they are certainly not going to be transparent about what happened. Well, we already know. I mean, we already discussed the loopholes. You know, we already discussed the loopholes. So that I mean, it's an easy excuse. I mean, I

think China learned a lot about that. I mean they they they also have the monopoly probably along with India for all the PPE equipment and and antibiotics especially the you know the ones that work Ivormectin you know they could have

shut that down immediately because anything that uh you know patent is up on we don't produce it we don't care about actual people who just care about money here and so they prod they produce all that stuff and I think Americans learned a little

bit about that during co we learned about the supply chain most people were shocked to find out exactly what you just mentioned and yet very little has been done about that although there are some you know manufacturing changes

even even when co happened you know there was the big mask narrative oh the masks are going to stop this [ __ ] who makes all the masks you get you get a virus that comes from China and then

China supplies us with the [ __ ] masks that are supposed to protect us and we're just putting this [ __ ] on hook line and sinker buddy. Like, oh yeah, cool. They they're the ones that released the thing that leaked the the

that leaked the virus and now they're going to give us masks. I mean, we can't even make our own [ __ ] masks.

We cannot make our own masks. And you can't even have a grown-up in the room explain to people how a mask works.

So instead, you had sort of people going, you know, when I was reporting the book at the very tail end of CO um I went to a BSL3 lab to, you know, see what it was like and these are former

USMRAD doctors. Um is the US Army Medical Research of Infection, you know, it's it's where the it's where the BSL 4 Lab is at Fort Dietrich in Maryland.

Mhm. [clears throat] And [cough] with regards to the masks, they were telling me that if you are working in pathogens, it's just basic common knowledge that an N95 mask, you have to wear it properly outfitted to your face.

You get an actual lesson in how to wear it. And it's suggested that you that it is only going to work for 15 minutes.

And that's an N95 mask. Those were gone in about two days. So the other kind of masks are essentially almost useless.

And I think that kind of we were wearing two of them. I wasn't people were wearing dirty masks, you know, and sometimes you still see people walking around Los Angeles.

Great looking face diaper you got on there. But that nobody spoke of this. And when I say nobody, I mean like sort of an a public official in a position of authority. And meanwhile, I'm learning that all the scientists in America are

like shaking their head and going but afraid to speak out because they're going to be called, you know, be ostracized.

So this is this was just again a dangerous situation from which extraordinary lessons could have been learned and were not.

Let's take a break. Take a break. When we come back, we'll get into the uh the panic.

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Let's get back to biological warfare and um so what does the panic look like? Do they paint? Did you talk to Yes.

people what that what what that kind of desperation that panic what would it do to society? How fast would it happen?

It happens so fast. So I like to try and look at specifics again. So to keep the narrative on actual documentation. So I we spoke a little bit earlier how an outbreak of this pathogen I talked about it starts with a lab leak in Siberia. It

winds up in Los Angeles in a homeless camp. And so I looked and because I live in Los Angeles and I am very familiar with the public health system. I've lived there for 30 years. The public health system, um, you know, law enforcement, I

can see a lot of the problems that have in to my eye that have happened over the decades. It wasn't always like this. It certainly is just an absolute mess right now with very little trust um, and real

serious problems. Um, so I looked at, for example, what would happen in a biological attack in Los Angeles because unbeknownst to many people, big cities practice these things and they happen at the federal level, I learned, and they

also happen at the state level. And so Los Angeles state and county lo California California state and Los Angeles county officials get like abysmally failing remarks in these efforts and this just goes completely unnoticed. Like for example, we put in a

whole new 911 system uh recently like in the past few years and it completely failed upon its original test. Like a system overrun.

Um, you know, there are stories of people calling all the time. People are posting on X, like 911 from Los Angeles, and then you can see how many minutes they've been on hold, like 13 minutes on hold just to have your call answered.

So, this is a real serious problem dayto day. Imagine if there was a biological in incident where timing is everything. Timing is everything. you have to get the information out to the people and instead I learned really interesting

details like okay so Los Angeles has a 100,000 bottle of cypro cyproaxisin which is antibiotic stash 100,000 100,000 bottles how many people does that treat for the city officials and I break it down of who it goes to

and so you've got like 16,000 bottles going to first respond responders obviously they need it and then like a bunch of them going to like the zoo officials you know and the cultural affairs officials I mean I'm not kidding

I gave you the numbers so it seems to be really poorly thought out and really what I wanted to know is what happens to law enforcement what happens to first responders I did an interview with a fire commissioner uh named Jimmy Hara

who unfortunately like died tragically last month in a car accident oh I know. And he was an incredible person, completely dedicated. I mean, he served as a doctor in Vietnam and he's been dedicated to LA public health and

fire safety ever since. And he told me just flat out, um, Los Angeles is completely unprepared for a pneumonic plague attack. Period. Full stop. And then he took me through some of the details of what would happen. So I like

in mixing these documents with interviews like um fire commissioner Hara I could begin to see that it's just complete ignorance. It's like being an ostrich with your head in the sand. And the hundred bottles of cypro I also

learned have this like wacky program attached to it. And I was going somewhere in this which is where you're asking where is the hole for insurrection and anarchy that the defense department and their documents is so worried about like how does that

happen? That's what I wanted to really drill down on so that I could explain it to readers and the 100,000 bottles of just perfect example that would repeat around the country. So this this 100 bottle supply gets dispersed by

volunteers. How does that work? How do you have imagine if you had a biological incident where you've got pneumonic plague with 100% death rate, no known cure, airborne, killing homeless people, you know, which is being mistaken for something else. A mass overdose for

example, because that's happening all over the country. That's what epidemiologists are worried about. Um, you've got law enforcement unprotected rushing in to help. And then you've got this kind of wild chaos at city hall rather in the emergency department of

the city planners and they're like get the cypro out to everybody and they make an announcement on Facebook which then goes viral. And so now you have everybody in Los Angeles trying to access what they believe is the medical counter

measure which will save their lives and the lives of their family members. And America is a nation of guns.

500 million guns in America according to a Gallup poll. That's so you can see that's where insurrection and anarchy happens. That's the dashel quote. people doing inhuman things just to survive.

And by the way, not from Manny Jacobson's imagination, looking at declassified or unclassified war games that that game this out show that is exactly what people begin to kill one another over perceived medical countermeasures.

It's a grim it's a grim story. I mean, I think it's pretty I mean, I don't think people think about it, but I mean, of course, what what measure are you going to take to save your husband and your

kids? And I think, you know, and it's going to be like that until the playing field is level and it looks like Yemen Afghanistan you know, where there is not really much social hierarchy.

Yeah. Everybody's on the same playing field, you know what I mean? Yeah. And so that it just it will continue until that happens until all the resources have been ransacked. It's done. There's nothing left to ransack and and and and then you have to learn

to survive off what's left. The devolution component of that that was stunning to me was that what the defense department prepares for. So, so what's what's interesting is I mentioned before that HHS is in charge of this when it happens, but very

quickly HHS realizes in its plan, you know, wargaming that they need the military's help. This is page one because, for example, they can't get supplies out to the states.

And you're talking about when you're talking about a pathogen that's killing people in like 48 hours, speed is everything. And so they're trying to get medical countermeasures out to states and they need the military's help. They need transportation command. And so I

had this moment in working on this book where I realized that I mentioned earlier, my god, like not since World War II will Americans be so happy to see the military show up in their town or their city to try and,

you know, regain control, to try and bring back order in sort of the insurrection that will be unfolding as people begin to panic. IC because I mean maybe they would be happy.

Well, I think a lot of people would be happy because not everybody's criminally minded. Okay. And and are going to be thinking help is on the way.

Well, I mean, how is the military going to treat the infected and that's where it gets especially if they don't have an antidote?

So, the military, I learned, and you probably know this, has issued 1.7 million gas masks to its personnel. So, you have, imagine, so the military are protected.

Mhm. And now you have another situation which is the mask becomes a coveted item.

So now you have president declaring an insurrection act so that p commatatus can be overridden.

P commatatus the the act after the civil war that prohibits the military from carrying out law enforcement measures in the United States that gets repealed with insurrection act. It's the only act that can do that. The president has the

authority to declare it at whenever he chooses. Okay. So the insurrection act gets laid down and now military can act with those orders. Same as in a war theater.

So there's like a moment in time it seemed to my eye writing this where order could be restored.

But then I learned that there's only so many military and there are 340 million Americans. So you do the math and then you realize that with shoot tokill orders and the fact that the devolution plan calls for the crit

there's a component of American infrastructure called critical infrastructure. You don't even really think about it until you hopefully read about it in my book and go of course like the roadways everything from the s the communication systems the banking

systems the roads the nuclear power plants the electrical grid treatment plants water treatment waste this is critical infrastructure and that needs to be guarded and that's what the military begins to guard and The military must also guard the hot sites, the cold sites

I told you about earlier where the devolution crews are going to. And so this kind of really spooky almost science fiction, but again it's science fact kicks in in my reporting and as I write in the book where you begin to see

what unfolds and how it is sort of almost inevitable the outcome of devolution because the center can't hold because the people cannot the the people do not know what is happening to them and have no way of understanding what lies ahead.

I mean, if you want a small like a small window, like a very small window of what that looks like, you can go you can go to Florida during hurricane season and you see how fast everything is gone, how people treat

each other. That's what that's one of the reasons I moved out of there. What was that experience like for you with the hurricane?

I mean, it was Was there kind of like some anarchy going on? I mean, I I would not say anarchy uh at all, but I mean, there are there are and I like I've always, you know, what I

used to do, so I'm I'm pretty prepared and I always [clears throat] have been.

But you're looking at gas lines that are hours and hours long. You're looking at, you know, and and people hoard. So, you got a guy show up with a trailer and he fills up his car and he fills up his

boat and then he fills up all his gas cans, you know what I mean? And you're wondering, "Is there going to be any gas left for me?" All the bottled water is gone. All the food is gone. All the

plywood is gone. All the generators are gone within 24 hours. Yeah. And then you're waiting you're waiting for X updates to see which Home Depot's been resupplied with plywood so that you can go board your windows up or which which

Walmart has some extra gener just got a new shipment of generators. In the last hurricane that went there that I that this was this was like I'm out of here.

No, this isn't for me. There was a traffic jam from Miami, Florida all the way to Atlanta Georgia.

Wow. the entire everybody trying to get out. Everybody trying to get out of dodge.

Everybody's trying to funnel out, you know, on a couple of highways and it's stop and go traffic. People are are they run out of gas. They're pulled over on the side of the road. Everybody's hoarding. I mean, the the grocery store

is legitimate. They're they're empty in 24 hours. Were people behaving like were they following traffic laws? Were people driving?

It's bottlenecked. It's bottlenecked. There there are no traffic laws. I mean, you can't get anywhere. It's gridlocked.

Wow. You know, I mean, Mhm. a gas line, I mean, will go all the way down the interstate.

So, let me ask you, FEMA, that's a hurricane. That's That's a hurricane. And that hurricane didn't even was like a joke.

I think it was Hurricane Matthew. I mean, then you have all these beams everywhere. The mass panic. hurricane doesn't even hit. And I think it was Matthew, I could be mistaken. And then you see all these memes like the days

after a show like a a lawn chair flipped upside down and we would we will rebuild.

Wow. The threat of hurricane was even as compulsive as a hurricane itself. Yeah. Just the threat. Wow.

I mean I I I what were we calling it? Speculative narratives. You know, I I I mean, I even have speculative narrative that I mean, maybe these corporations are are paying the news cycle just to overhype this because the amount of

revenue that happens instantaneously from everything, booze, cigarettes, gas, generators, everything. plywood, water, bullets, guns, bullets.

People get worried that that, you know, they're going to last forever and they go stock up on bullets. They go buy they go buy their first AR-15.

Did was there any sight of FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency? No. No. No.

Because FEMA What do you think about FEMA? Well, I don't really know much about it. I don't think they come in until afterwards, right?

But, uh, I mean, I've I've never had any experience with FEMA. So, but FE FEMA is another one of those really interesting organizations that's almost not known about. And by the way, they're the ones in charge of the devolution program. So,

consider that. I mean those FEMA is all it's not volunteers but I know a lot of a lot of people after the hurricanes or after a natural disaster they'll they'll do a mass hire and they pay Yes.

supposedly pretty well. Yes. So you got a bunch of people that are, you know, got hired yesterday that are running [ __ ] which and again like the military is so interesting to me, always has been how they

function, how it's a system of systems, flaws, weaknesses, strengths, but the military has professional individuals who have a lot of experience doing what they're doing. And to your point, when you have an organization that's like has like attention on it very sporadically,

you really have an organization of bureaucrats, you know, sort of pencil pushers, like very sort of straightminded individuals who are not gifted, shall we say, with flexibility as a as a leading car. They're really about organization.

And then suddenly there's a crisis. That's a really a mismatch of professionalism which I think FEMA really drastically suffers from. And yet it's in the event of these sort of mass catastroph. They're called complex catastrophes. The FEMA director calls it

a maximum of maximums event. That's really what they're planning for behind the scenes. And yet so few of their people are actually equipped like military personnel. And again, this is just my opinion having studied all of this. Um seems like that needs a big

reconfiguring. Mhm. Mhm. The question is, of course, as we move into the future with science moving so fast, are these threats, weapons of mass destruction that sort of hinge upon science, whether it's nuclear, bio, drones, are they making us move faster

into toward a catastrophe? Maybe they could also be working faster towards solution. And if so, what is the government doing to kind of stay on top of that? And what I think is happening is not much. Government's consumed with,

you know, all kinds of inside baseball problems, political tribalism, and the public's consumed with what should be called speculative narratives and are instead being called conspiracy theories. So it's just creating this extraordinary fracture a further fracturing from solution toward more

chaos which is you know again I write these books because I really believe that being informed it gives you it gives you lift it gives you a little bit of height on being able to assess the situation about what's

best for you and your family and it also it it takes way in a big component, I think, at least for me, of like doom and gloom inevitable cuz I don't want to just think America is doomed and we're just going downhill.

I just I'm I'm I'm too I'm I'm too much of a happy American to take that bath.

Good. Am I alone? [sighs] I have hope. There's a lot of us, but I'm also prepared.

Mhm. because I've seen too many things go sour in my uh previous life. [clears throat] I did get you a present.

I can't remember. Been talking. I can't remember. You can't remember. What? Did I get a present?

I got you a present. You did get me a present. Yeah. Oh, okay. Should I give it to you now?

Sure. I thought you said did I give you a present? No. No. No. Yeah.

I got you. You got me Joe Kent's long rifle part two. Well, I would love to give you Joe Kat's long rifle. [laughter and gasps] I have two I have two young men who are like, "Mom, I hope you get the I hope you get

the long rifle from Sig." Unfortunately, the state you live in. Uh, what? Wow. This is not do that. [clears throat] So, here we go. This is the You are kidding me.

Sig P36. You are kidding me. This is amazing. I am now prepared for bio.

There we go. Biological war scenario. Well, [laughter] I don't know about that. We might need to get some gas masks and some other things. Maybe some water filtration. But, uh, but you're you're prepared for mass panic to defend your

home now. This is pretty incredible. I'm really amazed. Thank you so much. You're welcome.

Sig. Sig. So, I got a friend over there. His name's Jason. He's VP of marketing. And, uh, he heard you were coming on, and he loved the nuclear war scenario interview. So, you wanted me to give that to you. It's got the Sig flashlight

on there. So, so you're not ever in the dark and uh the new Sig Romeo optic red dot. So, so you can fix a lot of you can you can skip right through a lot of fundamentals of shooting and just point and pull the

trigger with that thing. Put that red dot on there. Well, I'm going to be sure to get a lot of lessons and I do also know and this is going to be like a subject of of envy, the good kind of envy from a

number of people I know. So, thank you so much. You're welcome. Back to you. That's like That is pretty incredible. Sean, we'll do a little uh lesson after this. Hopefully, that would be that'd be an honor. Um, literally my kids were That was like a

joke about the the Joe Kent long gun, and that's not far away. So, I'm I'm flustered. I'm I'm amazed. Thank you.

Really? Takes a lot to fluster me. So, Right. [laughter] Is that your first firearm? I do have two firearms.

Oh, nice. Right. But not that one. Right on. Um, yeah. Well, I hope you enjoy it.

When Thank you so much. You know, I mean, California is an interesting state in terms of all of that. But speaking of the pandem when the pandemic happened, like every ammo shop ran out of ammo. I remember seeing the lines and of of

people in California that were that were arming themselves and I remember being disgusted with the Second Amendment community because they were making fun of it and they were like these people shouldn't even have firearms or they're basically Democrats getting firearms

and I was just I'm I'm thinking like what the hell is wrong with you man?

Like I mean here you are complaining about Second Amendment rights and gun rights nonstop all day and all night and now you have the other side of the aisle that is trying to arm themselves and everybody's on the on the same page

and and and you're going to bastardize them for it. That's incred. I mean that's a great point, right? That's like that gets into the sort of when people start having self-righteous indignation about when they shouldn't. They should be like,

"Congratulations." You know, um I had an interesting story with a a firearm. Okay, I'm going to I'm going to think if I can tell this. Um Okay, so I get jury duty in Los Angeles. Being a good citizen, I go to do my jury duty.

This was several years ago. This was before co so before. But everyone was like, "Holy [ __ ] Andy Jacobson's [laughter] on jury duty with me." No, no one, you know, I'm like in a room full of people are all like, "Why am I

here?" Okay. But um so before co I didn't own any the I didn't own any firearms or but I did own a firearm because my grandfather was a captain in the army who was behind enemy lines in what was then called

Czechoslovakia who became like the guy in charge when the war ended and took a luger off a Nazi and brought it home. Wow.

Okay. So, this was in the possession of my mother and when then it was given to me to give to my son, my one of my two sons. And it's a really incredible artifact because it actually like they're all

identifiable to certain Nazis. And in at the end there's it comes with a certificate from the war department. So, it's war booty, but you were allowed to actually have it. So, it's officially my grandfather's and now Okay. So, it's in

our house. Wow. Yeah. It's incredible. Right. Just just as a piece of, you know, I have his purple heart and his Luger.

Man, that is Right. [snorts] What a great heirloom. So there I am doing jury duty and it's a police brutality trial and um one of the questions that they're asking as they're trying to select jurors is who has a firearm, right? So I'm down

here. I'm like, okay, being a good citizen, I'm under oath. You know, of course I raise my hand because I do. I am. And by the way, this is before jury selection. There's 50 people in this room in this courthouse,

all of whom under oath or the variation of that. Okay. I'm the only one who raises my hand of having a firearm.

Wow. And I was like looking like what? How is this even possible? And when I was home that night at dinner, I had this discussion with my kids and my husband and they're like, "Mom, everyone in LA has illegal guns and they don't want to

admit it." Now, I have no idea if that's true, but it's a very interesting observation. And what is true is that no one else raised their hand.

Man, maybe it's a little either way. Maybe it's a little little sort of perception versus reality, right? No one wanted to admit they had a firearm. I have no idea.

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me tfabric.com/shan policies issued by Western Southern Life Insurance Company not available in certain states prices subject to underwriting and health questions if you when you talk to these people I mean what what are the different scenarios do they have scenarios where

it's certain parts of the country do they have scenarios where they use the country to spread it globally where are the targets It's what what you know I mean obviously if you want to spread I mean if it was me and I wanted

to spread one globally then I would definitely obviously hit the airports right you would release it in the airports because people are constantly coming and going and it would be impossible for yes to be able to trace trace it at that

point and it would spread like I mean with all the if you wanted to hit it more locally and and try to keep it contained I guess what would you hit you would hit probably unfortunately schools, grocery stores.

Well, a lot of early wargaming planning was predicated on precisely those kinds of scenarios like what would happen, how would the targets disperse. In the past 20 years or so with the advent or rather the advancement of genetic engineering

all of that no longer pretty much matters and we saw this in co it once an airborne pathogen right so there used to only be a very few truly airborne pathogens that a medical counter measure didn't exist for

and so it would you would have to kind of do exactly what you're talking about like have multiple targets. This was the terrorist threat. But now that an airborne pathogen can be modified with ease, we saw in CO that it just begins

to spread naturally on its own. And if you shorten the window of, you know, contagion to death, you have one kind of effect. If you lengthen it, right? So COVID had a lot of sort of what were silent carriers for a long time. Now

it's spreading in a different manner. And so as a result, most of the war games have begun to focus on two things which is like first and foremost and this is probably upsetting to a lot of people is how to keep infected people

out of the United States of America. There was one um war game that I write about in particular. So I take the reader through the scenario and then I kind of stop for like little history lessons about different war games. And

one of them that was conducted in 2018 uh describes boats of migrants. There's an outbreak in uh South America. So you've got all these panicked people leaving Venezuela in boats headed to Puerto Rico hundreds of miles away.

Okay, this is actually war gamed out. You can read it online. And they have the CDC officials deciding what to do, like do we actually let them come on land? And the answer is no. And then the subtext is

rules of engagement right now. That is and then of course you have another debate within this war game about how to deal with the press. Like if we start shooting at migrants and boats, we're going to have a real

problem. it's going to be all over, you know, the news. And that kind of cander in planning for a biological incident was shocking to me because it really gets at the heart of the matter of the kind of sort of ruthless

sort of, you know, fortressing that homeland security will immediately try to do if the pathogen is outside trying to come in. But what you learn from the wargaming is that the pathogen is almost always certainly already here. I mean,

remember when President Trump's first administration, COVID happens, he closes the border with Europe. He's he's, you know, restricted any flights from China, but the pathogen is already here. People have it in New York City. People have it in Seattle. Um I did an interview with

the former defense official in Italy, the defense minister and he was telling because there was a huge outbreak in Italy.

I remember remember that and you know why it was because in Milan which is a fashion capital of the world had Chinese you know individuals working in manufacturing Milan to China. They had brought it to China. But another

interesting fact I learned from the FEMA chief is that all most of the initial cases of COVID in New York City were from Italy, not from Wuhan. And they can tell this through genetic testing later to determine the variance.

Did it start in New York or did it start in Washington? In the United States, the first cases were in Washington. But the real panic, the real sort of like, oh my god, it's here moments was once New York City was

infected. Okay? Because then people realize there's no way to stop this because of movement.

You know, I I looked at bubanic plague, the black death, the plague of the black death, because bubanic plague becomes pneumonic plague in the lungs. And I wanted to show readers historically what hap what has happened and what is

possible. And what was interesting is you know I learned this this very unique fact that of course pathogens travel at the rate at which humans move. So in the time of the black death in the 14 1300s in the 14th century people moved by

caravan people moved by ship. So it was like slow right now people move by airplane. You know you can get from one side of the earth to the other in 15 hours. That's how fast things happen.

But they're still going to attempt to isolate it. And I show that in the beginning of the book because this is where you have the epidemiologists.

This is where you have public health officials. This is where you have, by the way, I mean, by no means do I mean to make everybody in government sound like, you know, some kind of incompetent bureaucrat. That is simply not the case.

the individuals that I interview and I list them all in the front of the book like co I mean like the nuclear war book so that people can see wow you know she's talking to the top subject matter

experts in public health in defense in federal emergency management extraordinarily competent people desperately trying literally to you know bring these different factions of the government together to pay attention to this threat to actually take actions so that America is prepared for such a

thing. And I show their stories that they tell me of like how the good part of that of like how they have made progress and then also where they are so failing and the failures are always political.

What measures would they go to through to isolate an incident? So one of the ver it's this super important question quarantine does exist but before that it's all about diagnostics. We were talking about that a little bit earlier like you went and

had a COVID test right now that has spiraled into a it's it's whole set of rabbit hole problems but the diagnostics the testings are important because very few people realize that the doctor doesn't know what he's looking at. The

doctor doesn't know. You can walk in with a sneeze and a cough and the doctor doesn't know. That's why the doctor will say, "I think you have." Okay. Want me to give you an example that's kind of easy to wrap your head

around? Okay. Strep throat. Have you had strep throat? Yeah. Recently? No. Okay. So, strep throat, you know, you go in like, "Doctor, my my throat hurts." They take they give you a strep test.

Strep is a bacteria. Bacteria are killed by antibiotics. You go into the doctor, you say, "I have a I have a strep." They give you a strep test because strep is ubiquitous. The test often happens in the back of the

doctor's office. Takes five minutes for a strep test. When I was growing up in the 70s, a strep test took two or three days.

That's science. When you were growing up, it probably took 10 minutes. Okay? Now, it's down to a couple minutes. The minute the doctor knows you have strep throat bacteria, you are prescribed antibiotics.

You usually drive to the local pharmacy on the way home from the doctor's office. Certainly, if your kids have strep, you want to get that antibiotic in them right away. Okay. Now, they're fighting the pathogen. They're not going

to get more sick. They're on the path to wellness. You go in there for strep and the doctor gives you the strep test and it comes back negative because you have a virus, not strep. Antibiotics do nothing for a

virus. That's why the doctor sometimes says go home and drink tea, you know, take some Advil, call me tomorrow.

So [clears throat] that's diagnostics. If you know what someone has, now you can begin to treat it. So, so much of bowar is predicated on testing. It's predicated on testing. People need which is that dual-edged sword because no one

wants to like give all their information to the government. So, again, that would be another situation where people realize no, if there is an outbreak of something, testing actually helps you and your family.

What what is the what lengths is the government willing to go to contain? You know, I mean, we saw just in co I mean entering a department store, entering, they got the the thermometer gun where they're Yeah.

taking your head temperature, you know what I mean? Every everywhere you go. And that was I mean at the time you know everything if you were in a car wreck and you happen to have CO you died of

COVID. So they overinflated the numbers and it made it sound worse and I think it took a couple months for everybody to catch on and I think the majority of people caught on relatively quickly and you know at least around here that [ __ ]

didn't last very long. Yeah, look at New York and you got people eating in bubbles, like inflatable bubbles and restaurants and everything shut down and California uh we've all heard the stories there.

Our governor closed our parks. Yeah. We couldn't go to the beach, get arrested for surfing, which is the place to go, by the way, like fresh air, but keep going. Yeah.

But uh you know so in in so anyways what I'm getting at is that was I mean that was u overreaction to a virus that that that did minimal damage.

What is the government willing to do for something like Ebola? Are they going to surround a city with with the military? Are they are they going to have rules of engagement? Are they going to have an escalation of

force? Are they going to kill people? What are they going to do? Yes to every one of those questions. Right. So, and by the way, COVID was a was, you know, essentially a I mean, a lot of people

died and to them it was a lot obviously to their family members, but in the scope of things, a pathogen with a 1% case fatality rate is nothing. Mhm.

And so if you have a select a tier one select agent where you have a case fatality rate of 30%, 40 50% or 100%.

The extreme measures that the government will go to, there's no such thing as too extreme. There quarantine is the president can there are legally quarantinable diseases and the president will absolutely declare a quarantine. So then the issue becomes well how do you

enforce a quarantine which is why the military comes in and the military has now can only come in if they have they have two lanes. The military can function under what is called defense support of civil authorities.

And it's just like it sounds. The defense department is supporting the states, the law enforcement. That's when you see the National Guard come in.

They do not have rules of engagement like the normal military because they're in support of the governor.

When the insurrection act is declared and it will be in a catastrophic biological event, the military has rules of engagement.

Essentially, America is a war theater. And America is what? A war theater. Mhm. You know, and I did this really It's not going to work. You just said there's 500 million guns in the country.

Good luck. And so this is the kind of bloodbath. This is that quote from Tom Dashel.

people doing inhuman things just to survive. Um, and there are contingency plans in place. And what I learned is of course the tip of the iceberg, but it is enough that I describe in the scenario to I think really get people thinking

like just like nuclear war, this is a catastrophic situation that we don't even want to get even close to. And so what are the solutions? What are the solutions? You know, and I believe those are always there. When you read the

worstc case possible scenario, you begin to be able to think in terms of solution because you're aware of what can happen.

Mhm. I mean, nobody's going to listen. Even if you do surround, even [clears throat] even if you if you were to surround Nashville with military and the roles were to shoot anybody that's leaving and you have something like Ebola break out,

how would you rather die? Bleeding out from every orphice in your body or being shot and slides out immediately? I know which way I want to go.

I mean this is, you know, these this kind of maximum of maximum events is something that used to be very far a field in planning. I believe you know it was kind of in the cold war there was a real effort to push for what

was called civil defense. You know, it was this idea that you could save the population from itself essentially that everybody would sort of go along to get along and that those days are completely over. And what is left is essentially

what's called continuity of government. COG, that's the acronym. And it's exactly like it sounds. The government must continue. You know, there's another interesting detail I learned. So you know about defconom defense readiness condition and you know five is where def where we normally are

and then at 911 it went to three at nuclear war it's going to go to one that means nuclear war two is like nuclear war we don't know because it's classified whether def we've ever gone to defcon 2

but defcon 3 was 911 um there is a similar defense or similar civilian readiness condition that exists that FEMA is in charge of the agency. Many people have never heard of or aren't sure what it does. The agency in charge of devolution

and it's called Cogcon. Again, completely classified program. The term itself has been declassified, which is why former FEMA director Craig Fugate could discuss it with me. And there are four levels. [snorts] And when Cogcon 1 gets declared, that's the triggering point for

Devolution. So the situation you're talking about is going to go in concert with Defcon, you know, as the situation ratchets up.

Um, and then once you hit COG Con 1, Devolution Protocols, and then everybody leaves Washington DC, it's called the National Capital Regional. I love that there all this weird nomenclature that like keeps the rest of us out. And I

think, you know, why is that? But it's not called Washington DC. It's called the national capital region. And everybody departs and goes to their bunkers and the military moves into the states.

Not a great scenario. Let's switch gears here real quick. I got a hot question for you 100%.

July 25th, 1946. Bikini Atoll. Wow. There are only seven atomic bombs on the entire planet and the US is about to spend one blowing up its own ships underwater to see what happens. That bomb was called Baker, and it became the

first time humanity really understood what fallout was. The ships that survived the blast were so radioactive they had to abandon the cleanup because it was killing the sailors doing it.

Bikini is still uninhabitable today, 80 years later. Can you walk us through Baker because this is the moment we learned a nuke doesn't just destroy, it poisons everything for generations.

Yeah, it's a it's a it's a fascinating moment moment in time that's being discussed there and journalist detail just because I have spent my life interviewing people who have actually been there really.

It's what gives me a little bit of an authority and I mean that like as an author, you know, I'm I wasn't there like you were in the war theater. I never have been but I interviewed. So, the man who wired that bomb,

who wired the Baker bomb, he armed, wired, and fired it, his name is Alfred O'Donnell. He's now dead, but I interviewed him for my book, Area 51, which was sort of my first foray into nuclear weapons. And O'Donnell was with

a small team of engineers called EG&G. And so even more interesting is that O'Donnell walked me through how do you like I said to him how do you w how do you arm wire wire arm and fire a nuclear

weapon to which he said well that's really classified but I can give you the layman's version of it okay because that by the way is what prohibits most rogue groups from being able to acquire fire a nuclear weapon. They

don't have the arming and firing device. That's what's so jealously guarded. It's incredibly complex. Alonner until he died, like an FBI minder keeping eyes on him, kind of always watching us whenever I was interviewing him, having lunch with him at the

Chinese restaurant. He had a lot of secrets. He wired 186 nuclear weapons for the government in the Marshall Islands and in Nevada.

And what I learned about that Baker bomb is that um in those days, we've been talking about how science and technology have advanced. There was no remote wiring system the way there is now. I mean, it did exist, but it wasn't ubiquitous, right?

So now you do this and you blow something up at a distance or you do this and you blow. So they had cables.

If you've ever seen that photograph of that you It's like ships in the atole and you see this mushroom cloud and coming up out of the water.

I have an actual Oh, it's an incredible photo. We'll put it up on screen.

Incredible photo. and Oddonnell took me through how they had to lay cable from the arming facility to the actual bomb.

Wow. So they how how far were they? They were they were not far away. This is like in those days where um you know they they would they would set the situation up. They had some remote control, right? So they would go out on

a ship further out from the atole maybe 25 miles away, but um and they would do some remote firing, but the the actual device had to be attached to its armed system on shore, which is just kind of

an unfathomable detail in today's world. How was he psychologically? How many sailors died? Well, that was the first atomic test after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I mean, you know, that was a really pivotal moment in history because there was a

kind of decision of like maybe we're going to sort of not go nuclear. And you know there was lots of debate in the international community whether it should be monitored and and the Navy stepped in and was like you know we're

in business here and then the nuclear arms race took off with that Baker bomb and there were more than 100 atmospheric nuclear tests that happened after that.

And the size of that test, by the way, was tiny compared to what would come later because that was an atomic weapon. There was only atomic weaponry in those days.

It would be in it wouldn't be until the very early 1950s that the thermonuclear weapon, the hydrogen bomb would be invented. And the hydrogen bombs are what are megatons.

The atomic weapons were still in the kiloton range. So, while that bomb looks huge, you'll see in the photo, it's not, you know, Castle Bravo or Ivy Mike, the megaton weapons that were going off later. So, psychologically, how was

Oddonnell? I mean, you know, it it took a toll on those individuals, but they also were so conditioned, some might say programmed to believe, and no, I'm going to say conditioned because Russia was such a threat, you know. Mhm.

I mean, totalitarian communism was just a looming threat, and everyone that worked within the military-industrial complex in those days, knew it, was conditioned to be extremely fearful of it, and was determined to beat it.

And, you know, people have their opinions now, but having interviewed a lot of Cold War warriors, I completely reserve judgment on that.

and just go with what they what they talk about about how serious that threat was.

Wow. Last question. Yeah. Is America prepared for biological war? I mean, absolutely not. Absolutely not.

And biological war can never happen. You know, it can never happen. This is what I would talk about with nuclear war where I would say, you know, nuclear war is insane. And every person I ever interviewed told me that and these are

people in nuclear command and control that retired. You can never have a nuclear war civiliz it's a it's the endgame and biological war is the same situation. It is an endgame. We cannot have one.

Co needs to be re-examined as a as a lesson. What can we learn from this and what can we never do again with those mist same mistakes and how do we educate people so that they are so that they can

have conversations like we're having a you know airing a little bit on the like oh my god this is a disaster so that you realize how do I participate in the dialogue so that it can never happen you know it can never happen and

that can be a specific different lane for all kinds of us each one of us Like some people will really take issue with gain of function will say that must be shut down. The current president has shut down gain of function research you

know others will I mean I didn't even mention how many bio safety labs there are right now like I did we did speak about how during you know before 9/11 there were two in America.

Mhm. There was one in Atlanta at the CDC and one at Fort Dietrich. two. Now there are 17 in America.

There's 17. 17. There are 110 around the world in countries where there are wars going on.

Ukraine, the BSL3 labs, which are just one degree below, which by the way, you can work with anthrax, plague, haunt virus in BSL3.

There are 3,500 of them around the world. 90% of them have no safety protocols.

They're just working working away without kind and no organization tracks this. No government organization, academics and scientists track this. So you pick your lane once you know about this stuff. Hm. What do I want to pay attention to and kind keep eyes on? That

would be a good Well, keeping track of what labs are doing what is a great starting place.

Wow. Well, my conclusion would be the government's prepared themselves for it, but they haven't done [ __ ] to prepare the rest of us, and they probably never will.

or it's a considered such a rarified problem. You know, it's the old it's a bit like the nuclear issue like that's never going to happen. But I do think that the COVID pandemic really has the potential in a good way

to flip the switch on that ostrich in the sand thinking. Before that, people could say, "Oh, come on. There hasn't been a pandemic since the Spanish flu." You know, the influenza pandemic of 1918.

Uhhuh. That's that's of the past and co really was a wakeup call that you can just be caught completely offguard.

You don't want to be caught unaware. Yeah. Well, Annie, that was a fascinating discussion.

Always a pleasure. Likewise. Thank you. [music] No matter where you're watching the Shawn Ryan Show from, if you get anything out of this at all, anything, please like, comment, and subscribe. And most importantly, share this everywhere you possibly can. And if you're feeling

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