Is it OK to Have Sex Before Marriage?

Discussion on sex before marriage, cultural explanations, and biblical perspectives from pastors Jesse Churchill and Anthony Ligher.

Ask about this video. Answers come from its transcript only — with the timestamp, so you can check them.

Generated from the transcript and can be wrong — check the timestamp.

Key Takeaways

Sex before marriage is often misunderstood due to cultural and generational bad explanations.
Fear-based teachings about sex can overshadow the positive biblical intent of sexuality.
Open, honest dialogue in church communities is necessary to address real experiences and questions.
Commitment and vulnerability are central to healthy relationships, not just the act of sex.
Many church teachings are cultural rather than strictly biblical and should be re-examined.

What the video covers

Hosts Jesse Churchill and Anthony Ligher introduce a new series called Bad Explanations.
They discuss cultural and generational explanations around sex before marriage and church practices.
Personal anecdotes illustrate misunderstandings and reactions related to readiness for fatherhood and church customs.
The episode critiques common but flawed teachings about sex, dress codes, and morality in Christian contexts.
They explore how sex before marriage is often framed negatively but argue for a more nuanced biblical understanding.
The conversation highlights the impact of fear-based teachings versus embracing the intent of God regarding sexuality.
They address the challenges of discussing sex openly in church and the need for honest dialogue.
The hosts emphasize the importance of commitment and vulnerability within relationships, including marriage.
They reflect on how cultural values and generational differences shape views on sex and church behavior.
The episode sets the stage for further discussions on challenging traditional explanations and beliefs.

Chapters

What is the main topic discussed in this video?

The video discusses the topic of sex before marriage, exploring cultural, biblical, and personal perspectives.

Why do the hosts call some explanations 'bad explanations'?

They refer to common teachings and cultural messages that are misleading, fear-based, or not biblically grounded as 'bad explanations.'

What do the hosts suggest about readiness for fatherhood?

They humorously suggest that one is never fully ready for fatherhood, emphasizing the unpredictability and challenges involved.

Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

Speaker A

Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Seeking What They Sought. I'm one of your hosts, Anthony Ligher. Happy 2019, and I hope the holidays have treated you with plenty of delicious foods and beverages, and times with friends and family, and all the things that the holidays bring.

Speaker A

and family and all the things that the holidays bring um as for us over here at the podcast we have a ton planned for 2019 that we're super super excited about so be sure to keep your eyes open

Speaker A

As for us over here at the podcast, we have a ton planned for 2019 that we're super, super excited about, so be sure to keep your eyes open.

Speaker A

welcome to the [Music] party hey everyone uh my name is Jesse Churchill I'm a pastor up in Washington state I am Anthony lighter as I previously mentioned before and I live in good old SoCal I'm a youth pastor at

Speaker A

For that, on today's episode, we spend some time debuting a new series that we're calling Bad Explanations, and we get to dive into our first topic, which is sex before marriage. I don't want to spoil anything, so without further ado,

Speaker A

it does why is that I'm going to be a father in less than two months that's nuts you're going are you ready to be a father um that is the number one question I've got gotten and I'll answer

Speaker A

welcome to the [Music] party. Hey everyone, my name is Jesse Churchill. I'm a pastor up in Washington state. I am Anthony Ligher, as I previously mentioned before, and I live in good old SoCal. I'm a youth pastor at

Speaker A

uh I'm going to tell a little Sean's story uh so Sean and I were roommates for about 3 years uh in in college and one year uh I was in the bathroom this is going to be a very uh just if you

Speaker A

the La Sierra University Church, and I'm Sean Lenhoff, and I teach at San Griel Academy in Southern California. It's 2019, guys. It is Happy New Year. Does it feel different to be in 2019? For me, it does. Yep, for you,

Speaker A

Jesse I'm like what in what Sean this I'm I'm not able to move like I I this isn't just to get up and and come over their situation like Jesse come here something some smells like something's burning and I'm like what what are you

Speaker A

it does. Why is that? I'm going to be a father in less than two months. That's nuts. You're going—are you ready to be a father?

Speaker A

shorted and so some smoke came out of one of the things and Sean was freaking out I had to get off the toilet in about maybe 15 seconds like it was it was pretty quick and go in there for that

Speaker A

That is the number one question I've gotten, and I'll answer this for you: no, you're not. Yeah, I don't know what the answer to that question is. I don't know what ready means. See, here's the reason why I don't think you're ready, Sean,

Speaker A

reaction time what are you going to do when something's burning are you going to start calling for your baby like baby baby come here something's burning and the baby is going to be like I can't speak like what's going to happen that's

Speaker A

and I don't think you ever will be. I'm going to tell a little Sean's story. So Sean and I were roommates for about three years in college, and one year, I was in the bathroom. This is going to be a very—just if you

Speaker A

the middle of the night and I woke up and I was trying to get ready quickly to help her and I turned my lamp on so bright that it blinded me and I was I was incapacitated for a

Speaker A

didn't realize this about this episode based on the title, you don't want your kids listening to this, so I feel comfortable sharing this here. I'm sitting—I'm sitting on the toilet, and Sean starts going, "Jesse, Jesse, come here."

Speaker A

night but no that was in the middle of the day but that's that's my first thing is I'm not going to defend myself but I'm also going to mention Jesse that I don't feel like you're any more qualified because for every story you

Speaker A

Jesse, I'm like, what? In what? Sean, this—I'm not able to move. Like, I—this isn't just to get up and come over there. Situation like, "Jesse, come here. Something smells like something's burning." And I'm like, what? What are you

Speaker A

nuke like everyone was going to launch them off and everyone was going to die that's what our friendships are like all three of us including with a couple other guys like we all know too much about too much the one night where we

Speaker A

talking about? And he's freaking out, so I have to take care of my situation real quick so I can get there quickly. And I get there, and all that had happened was that a power strip had kind of shorted, and so some smoke came out of one of the things, and Sean was freaking out. I had to get off the toilet in about maybe 15 seconds. Like, it was pretty quick, and go in there for that.

Speaker A

all going be ruined if I'm going down I'm bringing you down with me that's that's true friendship folks yeah exactly Friendship Christian Fellowship in the form of Christian Fellowship in in the in the form of friendship amongst men destroy one another John

Speaker A

And I had to go back to the bathroom after, like, I wasn't done. You—you paused in the middle of this regularly scheduled programming. What is that exactly?

Speaker A

especially and even when we were teenagers like you get all of these terrible explanations for things like for instance uh you know I was always told you got to dress up for church right because you got to wear your best

Speaker A

And yes. And so Sean, I just have concerns about his reaction time. What are you going to do when something's burning? Are you going to start calling for your baby like, "Baby, baby, come here, something's burning," and the baby is going to be like, "I can't speak." Like, what's going to happen? That's

Speaker A

biblical basis for that and all of a sudden you realize like well why was I never why was it passed off that way why was it explained as though oh yeah this has a good reason there's a good reason

Speaker A

what he will say. So I'm not going to defend myself against that because in the heat of a moment, I can sometimes get a little stupid. I won't always think things through. There was a time when Relle wasn't feeling good in

Speaker A

context for why I have to wear a suit you know why I have to wear a tie and all of those different things that's one of the bad explanations that's like a really basic level one but there's a lot

Speaker A

the middle of the night, and I woke up, and I was trying to get ready quickly to help her, and I turned my lamp on so bright that it blinded me, and I was incapacitated for a

Speaker A

remember in particular my dad had a huge thing my dad's a pastor I think I've said that before but um and I love him a lot but he had this thing uh with hats on in church like it wasn't even just a

Speaker A

good 10 seconds. So I—amazing. And my brainbot. To be fair, to be fair, my brain hadn't woken up. It was in the middle of the night.

Speaker A

that's disrespectful this is a holy area and then as I grew up more and read the Bible for myself I realized I don't find that anywhere in the scripture like it's definitely a cultural value but and the explanation was I'd always be like well

Speaker A

And the one that Jesse spoke about was not in the middle of the

Speaker A

like I don't know if I would I I don't really share that cultural maybe this is a now yeah yeah so well well but even now like yeah I know why you're saying that Sean but at the same time like even

Speaker A

night. But no, that was in the middle of the day. But that's—that's my first thing. I'm not going to defend myself, but I'm also going to mention, Jesse, that I don't feel like you're any more qualified because for every story you

Speaker A

different cultural value I think it's just a generational yeah yeah but then but part of the reason we're doing the series is because then it was passed off to us like it wasn't just a generational value this is a timeless right it's like a

Speaker A

can say about me, I think I might have 10. So I'm just—I'm going to leave it at that. There's this idea—there was this idea in the Cold War called mutually assured destruction, which means that's what this is. If one nation launched off a

Speaker A

sanctuary and then you know there's all these underlying weird presuppositions like you know like God's presence is in the church Sanctuary which is you know we can get into more about that but yeah you know we're going to do a whole

Speaker A

nuke, like everyone was going to launch them off, and everyone was going to die. That's what our friendships are like—all three of us, including with a couple other guys. Like, we all know too much about too much. The one night where we

Speaker A

church or oh yeah I mean the ones you mentioned dress and I mean no food in the sanctuary no running in the sanctuary um you know I mean it's sometimes it's hard to think all the all all of them

Speaker A

all just shared our deepest secrets, and at this point, it's like we have too much dirt on each other. So if one brings up one in public, then I can just bring up anyone else's. It's just—it's just we're

Speaker A

beat the system yeah um but I don't know it it was interesting because back then I don't know if I really questioned any of those things as a child I wasn't one of those kids that really questioned it

Speaker A

all going to be ruined. If I'm going down, I'm bringing you down with me. That's—that's true friendship, folks. Yeah, exactly. Friendship. Christian fellowship in the form of Christian fellowship in the form of friendship amongst men destroy one another. John

Speaker A

well and it's it's interesting too cuz I I mean we've touched on some I think almost surface level Concepts but then you get into stuff like alcohol where and we we're going to have a whole episode on that too but you know where

Speaker A

[Laughter] 3:14. We should—we should talk about our new series that we're doing. It's called Bad Explanations. Why is it called Bad Explanations? I think that when we were talking about this, we were talking about how we—when we were growing up,

Speaker A

in like over drinking not getting drunk but like it it glorifies the consumption of alcohol at responsible levels or at the very minimum condones it yeah at the very minimum yeah and you're like wait wait wait wait wait why did you just

Speaker A

especially, and even when we were teenagers, like you get all of these terrible explanations for things. Like, for instance, you know, I was always told you got to dress up for church, right? Because you got to wear your best

Speaker A

topic but you guys know that how many times you heard like people try to to to uh justify the fact that well Jesus turned water into grape juice not actual fermented wine you know and like maybe that's true but it's like we're so stuck

Speaker A

for God, and it was always passed off like there was a biblical—there was a biblical basis for that, for why I should dress up to go to church.

Speaker A

what it's like it's that's not what the Bible is saying yeah and and here's the thing too like if I'm going to look at it like when we're talking about all these topics in this in this series we're not necessarily just we're not

Speaker A

And then as I grew up, I realized there's no

Speaker A

to healthy conclusions about what actions we take um that's more what we're looking at we're more we're more looking at how we need to change the dialogue in our in our church not necessarily the actual um teachings and maybe maybe

Speaker A

biblical basis for that. And all of a sudden, you realize like, well, why was I never—why was it passed off that way? Why was it explained as though, oh yeah, this has a good reason, there's a good reason

Speaker A

that's not the point with that or with all the other ones it's it's about how we talk about it because um as we'll get into it this episode there's just a reality there's a reality with with the people that are doing all these things

Speaker A

for this, you know? But then you grow up, and you're like, I get the idea that, oh yeah, it's God. Like, maybe I shouldn't come in, you know, the worst clothing I have, but at the same time, there's no

Speaker A

coming to healthy conclusions we we also recognize that some explanations and principles that we were taught growing up were actually damaging and and and hurtful and actually oppose uh the gospel and oppose the Bible so you know the idea that I have to I have to bring

Speaker A

context for why I have to wear a suit, you know, why I have to wear a tie and all of those different things. That's one of the bad explanations. That's like a really basic level one, but there's a lot

Speaker A

life when I realized wow like like it's it's it's it's this interesting works-based idea that like when I bring my best before God that's what I do you know to like to give him a thing but the whole essence of the Gospel is that my

Speaker A

of things like that. I don't know, maybe you guys have examples too. Yeah, I think for me, growing up as a pastor's kid, church is an easy topic. There are plenty of other things, but I think like I

Speaker A

good efforts are you know like to God he looks at them and he's like sorry that's not good enough you know it's like filthy rags you know and so when so the bad what you're saying is the bad

Speaker A

remember in particular my dad had a huge thing. My dad's a pastor. I think I've said that before, but

Speaker A

sex I think in particular cuz it's so intri intricately connected to uh the gospel and God and the story of his love and and the picture of his love for for people that I think like like these lazy

Speaker A

and I love him a lot, but he had this thing with hats on in church. Like, it wasn't even just a

Speaker A

in the way it's been talked about and maybe our first question is what were we taught about sex growing up and and specifically sex before marriage I think you know there's this kind of this idea of once you're married then

Speaker A

sanctuary, but it was in the church building in general,

Speaker A

don't know at least I was told certain things here's why you shouldn't have sex before marriage you could have unwanted pregnancy you could uh get STDs I remember literally like you know in sex ed classes not that this is a bad thing

Speaker A

but especially in the sanctuary. It was like you could not wear a hat in the sanctuary, even if it wasn't Saturday. Yeah, it was like you, like in general, take your hat off. That's

Speaker A

what they were and how bad they were which is maybe educational and you need to know that right you know but it wasn't it was never I was never given a good like emotional reason the like I don't know maybe thought re emotional

Speaker A

that's disrespectful. This is a holy area. And then as I grew up more and read the Bible for myself, I realized I don't find that anywhere in the scripture. Like, it's definitely a cultural value, but—and the explanation was I'd always be like, well,

Speaker A

maybe I don't know what were your guys' experiences what were you taught about sex growing up oh man it's hard to it's hard to think back but I feel like I feel like a lot of what I heard and what

Speaker A

why that? And you know, it was always like, you know, because this is a holy place, you know, like you would take your hat off if you were meeting the president, you know, something like that. And I was

Speaker A

being a pure person and but if you didn't then you were unpure and and I don't I don't remember if that was you know unnecessarily like stated up front um but it was you know this idea that like

Speaker A

like, I don't know if I would—I don't really share that cultural maybe this is a now. Yeah. Yeah. So well, well, but even now, like, yeah, I know why you're saying that, Sean, but at the same time, like even

Speaker A

get more into this later but the idea that your whole identity is sort of wrapped into like your sexual Purity yeah um I don't think at the time when I was growing up I I I made these conclusions but I think later on in

Speaker A

now, like if I'm wearing a hat that day, you know, and it's part of my what I'm wearing, it's part of your outfit, like there's not really a reason to take it off. There's just a

Speaker A

classic things at home about you know um saving yourself from marriage and anything but honestly I just remember more at school more prominent memories of like what Jesse mentioned where we watched like I remember video series on man I can't remember her name it was

Speaker A

different cultural value. I think it's just a generational. Yeah. Yeah. But then, but part of the reason we're doing the series is because then it was passed off to us like it wasn't just a generational value. This is a timeless, right? It's like a

Speaker A

the best way to learn about sex honestly you could tell though that the the kids were like I can't believe my mom dragged me here like you know it was miserable this is the worst day of my entire

Speaker A

timeless value with spiritual implications. So if you don't do this, it's like, wow, is God like angry with me or dissatisfied or, you know, like is there—is there does God look at me differently if I'm wearing a hat in a

Speaker A

how um he left me out to dry because once I had sex he abandoned me and I was called um inappropriate things and and m i was looked upon as you know kind of the the [ __ ] at my school and just

Speaker A

sanctuary? And then, you know, there's all these underlying weird presuppositions like, you know, like God's presence is in the chu

Speaker A

so and then usually what happens is by the very end you get a short section that speaks about how sex is beautiful it was created by God um within the within the context of the of marriage so just wait for it's going to be beautiful

Speaker A

the minut conclud but you just got to wait for it and it it'll be beautiful then but there's no other explanation it usually spends 90% of the time is on the the downside of it um and and true and

Speaker A

then the rest is briefly touching on um the beauty of marriage uh being a good place for sex um but it it doesn't really get into how it's a beautiful thing or the the purpose Pur of it maybe

Speaker A

maybe sometimes there was there were a couple Bible verses we go over that were talking about the the purpose of sex and all that but but again it was it was very brief I don't have any memories of

Speaker A

really having discussions in class or I don't either actually in in the church about about not until I was in high school I think it took maybe until high school that we started getting conversations and I remember probably

Speaker A

the most impactful speaker in high school for me was at a camp meeting when I heard uh pastor Matt gamble yeah uh give give talks about the importance of of the mind and sexuality and and I think that was a big breakthrough for me

Speaker A

personally yeah Sean you brought up an interesting point as we were discussing stuff in the leadup to the series that because we were talking about how bad explanations it's like you know we heard all these terrible explanations or at

Speaker A

least like really incomplete pictures of because yeah maybe you need to know about STDs and the dangers of them but when that's all you hear and Sean you brought up that it's really hard for like especially parents or or adults how

Speaker A

do you teach a 12-year-old about sex in a way that they're going to understand how do you teach even a 15 16 year old like you guys know how especially three of us boys you know in high school every

Speaker A

time someone said sex like we were in the back just dying yeah we were the immature kids in the back yeah yeah yeah yeah like like and so how do you teach those kids about sex you don't really

Speaker A

but here's the problem that I think we all I think Anthony you said this cuz you said yes that that's a problem but the problem is that we never heard the adult explanation later on you know we always only ever heard the the because

Speaker A

maybe you got to tell a teenager sex is just bad like well no no never mind not that but maybe you got to tell a a teenager don't have sex right now cuz you're not ready for it but they're not

Speaker A

going to understand what that really means but then when we get into college you know you never actually heard the adult conversation about why sex is so good in its right context and Sobe so dangerous outside of that we never heard

Speaker A

the good adult conversation about that so it's interesting uh because now I think that's part of what what maybe we're hoping to do and not like we're experts or anything and if someone if if someone listening had a really positive

Speaker A

experience with their parents upbringing and their school like absolutely please uh share that story with us send us uh an email or just post on Facebook we'd love to hear your story I'm I'm sure that it's there also had terrible

Speaker A

experiences I want to hear that like I just want to hear I want to hear the story about your mom sitting you down and then just giving you a talk that like just was so painful I want to hear

Speaker A

that give us your best bad explanations we have to share St you have a story well oh well I so I'm remembering now like a lot of the weird like like lazy examples like that were given to me so

Speaker A

I'm remembering like the used car metaphor like like like wouldn't you wouldn't you rather buy a brand new car that's never been driven and never been used than a disgusting used like like car from a a dirty used car lot you know

Speaker A

and like if you have sex before marriage that's what you are you're you know you've been used you know or like the water bottle example I think you you've seen this one too Jesse uh the water bottle one where there's like um like

Speaker A

like two two water bottles one of them is um is totally or it the illustration starts off with with two totally fine clean brand new water bottles then um in one of them um like some guy comes on

Speaker A

stage and man I think I saw this at a camp meeting somewhere some guy comes on stage and he like opens one of the water bottles and just like Jewels all over and spits in it and then he gives it

Speaker A

back to the presenter and the presenter is holding these two and then he says you know like which one of these would you rather would you rather come to marriage as you know like the brand new unopened pristine water bottle or like

Speaker A

the used slobber on this is what you're presenting to your future spouse basically yikes you know well and like and the scary part is there's like this weird and I got to be careful here there's this weird suev truth to it like

Speaker A

you know wouldn't you rather have like that experience of sex between just the two of you and there's no baggage from the past there is that right and there's a beautiful message in there yeah but then there's like but like to not do the

Speaker A

do sex the Justice yeah of having a legitimate conversation about why it's so powerful and why uh and and then to not bring shame and guilt into it like that like I mean that's horrific yeah yeah like that's awful it's it's it's

Speaker A

when you think about it's like reversed it's like reactionary you know like it's it's it's all reactionary language because if it it was proactive um it would be like a proactive stance would be this is what we believe about sex and

Speaker A

then you you know you know like you you just be that but a reactionary response is like the world around and I you know it's fair I think to say that this is how the church responded a lot as the

Speaker A

Church looked out at the world and saw like wow like you know sexual promiscuity is on an all-time high whatever and then it just reacted and said okay we need to like push back against that but instead of like

Speaker A

creating an alternate stance and being proactive often times I think you know we've just sort of been been reactive and just you know well it would seem like if sex is everything that it should be in the context of marriage shouldn't

Speaker A

the positives of what it was created to be outweigh the fear-mongering that needs to be done in order to make you not have it before before it's right context I think that's kind of I think that's what we all miss too weird to me

Speaker A

I think yeah for sure the thing is too like you know we can all agree that Satan has used that to create Brokenness in the world like we we all agree that there's there's so much Brokenness but the thing is is the church is

Speaker A

acknowledging that Brokenness and almost like instead of focusing on the beauty they're saying let's focus on this Brokenness and be really scared of it and put up our walls against it instead of saying let's instead of putting up

Speaker A

walls what if we instead took the approach of just recapturing the beauty of it and we wouldn't need to put up the walls it would just it would fizzle out you wouldn't uh you wouldn't have to fear you have less of a need to be

Speaker A

afraid yeah yeah and and I don't know if May and and to be honest not to I'm not accusing anyone or you know any specific people that have done that because I think honestly it's easier to put up the

Speaker A

walls of fear than it is to get back to the beauty um of the intent of God I think that's much harder well and yeah is something to be said about age right like you you tell a kid not to cross the

Speaker A

street cuz you might get hit by a car MH right like there's a fear level to that you know but then someday you hope they understand the bigger concept that it's not just fear it's like you want to have

Speaker A

a full and healthy life you don't want to you don't want to purposely or or unknowingly do something that might hurt you right you know and and so hopefully they understand that concept later but you have to start with fear but I'm

Speaker A

interested I'm interested in in the uh in I know both of you guys have done a lot of research biblically about what it what it's uh what the Bible says about sex especially outside of marriage or or why it's supposed to be

Speaker A

in anytime as a youth pastor I'm asked like talk can you talk about sex Pastor Anthony I'm like yes let's 100% let's do it so exciting um that's a little bit like that that's a little bit weird no I

Speaker A

feel like it's not weird though I feel like yes let's talk about sex like that that's the level of like excitement is uh well I mean as we just stated like this wasn't something that was talked about thoughtfully for me growing up so

Speaker A

I love the chance to be able to talk about it thoughtfully with teenagers and to like just sort of dispel all of the weird like like like uh I don't know like what's the word I'm looking for um

Speaker A

presuppositions mysterious yeah like his yeah I want to say hysteria but that's not the right word talk about um but yeah so I think the place where I would always start is um like with um a Hebrew word it's called and it

Speaker A

means one it means Oneness and um that's probably where I would start is like for God's intention of sex um is two different people coming together to to to form a new thing and that new thing is called um which is this like

Speaker A

interplay like this dance of of two two different people becom you can find that you can find that word in Genesis 224 it's when I think is that where where you find it concept is there yeah I'm Prett sure that created yeah their Adam

Speaker A

and Eve are created and then it says that the two will leave their father and mother right and they'll become one flesh right and that's that word so good so yeah that's where I would start and that's what that's what

Speaker A

I think is just that basic idea is a countercultural idea that uh that two are becoming one and this this one thing is becoming a new you think and that sex is a part of that that Oneness and it's

Speaker A

like the glue that keeps that Oneness together um yeah but yeah I would that's where I would go I would there's there's plenty of other things to talk about but um well actually and if you don't mind I

Speaker A

I want to I want to talk about that concept a little bit the the becoming one yeah because uh there's a level of this that makes sense in the context of marriage as opposed to anywhere else because if there is a Oneness that's

Speaker A

coming from this act or rather that this act is the culmination of of this commitment to I'm committing to you because that's that's in essence I Anthony you you wrote this I don't know if you had read this somewhere or

Speaker A

something like that but I ended up speaking at a week of prayer and uh and going off with some stuff that you had written about it and I love this concept that when you are committing to someone you're saying I'm committing to all of

Speaker A

you right every bit of you the your your your good stuff your bad stuff the insecurities the strengths all of that I'm committing to all of you and sex is the ultimate level of that where you are fully naked and exposed and I mean that

Speaker A

like not just physically naked though but emotionally and layer spiritually you're kind of stripped bare and it's there's this level of are will you accept me like this wow yeah and so for both of you to be in that state and then

Speaker A

to come together and and then to have this physical act that you said this earlier is in essence the glue yeah that brings you into that sense of Oneness but the the problem is is that you can't become one if you haven't committed to

Speaker A

every part of somebody right right because then what you're saying is like I'm committed to all of this part of you to like these four things but then there's these two things that I'm not ready to commit to and yet this action

Speaker A

has in essence stated I'm ready to become one with you right even though I wasn't quite sure if I was actually ready to become one with you so that that seems to be the part that I totally missed I if it was ever talked about in

Speaker A

high school or even in college become an individual almost an entity in and of themselves and that that sex is the culmination of that commitment and I feel like I would I would go two places I would say I mean one this this Oneness

Speaker A

and this is not is good it's good it's not gross or dirty or bad but it's actually good and beautiful and amazing and I think that's the first place usually that's usually what I talk about first um when talking

Speaker A

to high school high schoolers is just like we have this idea somehow that like sex is dirty or bad or gross but in reality it's like God made it and he God wanted God wanted to make it and it was

Speaker A

some it's something that's good and awesome um and I always describe it as good but dangerous because because we live in a broken World um all of the best things that God has created are now dangerous to us because we tend to

Speaker A

worship them and uh and so yeah I would say that but then the second thing is um that like what you're were saying Jesse in the commitment of in the commitment um confines of marriage confines is an interesting word we could talk more

Speaker A

about that in the in the commitment of marriage um I I truly believe that sex is the most like closest picture to the to what God's love is like which is kind of like the statement I see all of you

Speaker A

and I still love you I I I see everything and I still love you and in fact I want every part of you and I think that part that you said Jesse um which I guess you were quoting me so I

Speaker A

guess I'm quoting myself I guess this is this is a roundabout self quote self promotional the guy is quoting you as your quote Oh my words but yeah I think like um the idea that like be because I was

Speaker A

we were all I'll speak for myself that I was given these like cheap illustrations of what sex before marriage does you know like the water bottle and the Ed car I was never able to get to the deeper level which is that and this I

Speaker A

think is a a like a a worldview breakdown between a Biblical worldview and like a postmodern worldview or like the worldview of of the world and our culture um I think this is where it breaks down which is the idea that sex

Speaker A

inherently is means commitment um because I think if you asked any you know non-religious person you know does sex mean commitment I think most people especially our age would say no not really you can have sex it doesn't

Speaker A

really you know like maybe that's something you do on the first or second date you know but um yeah crazy I I was when I was doing this week of prayer I ended up sitting in in their bi in the

Speaker A

Bible classes some of these kids and this one guy I appreciate his honesty honestly he was I think he was a senior and he says honestly I get all of that but I still think that sex is just

Speaker A

something you can do like you can just have it and and it's fine there's not a ton of other stuff to it so it's not like like what you're saying is yeah there's this there is a a quite

Speaker A

different idea yeah of what sex actually is 100 yeah 100% I think that's totally where our our culture disconnects with the biblical worldview which is that God created sex to inherently create commitment like when you do it it

Speaker A

creates it makes commitment it's well you even see that in like movies yeah right where you like like friends with benefits and then at the end of it they're romantically involved because they realize that they were that but you

Speaker A

know what's crazy is like that's that's almost the the an opposing World antithesis of yeah but it's affirming the biblical world view it's a weird commentary yeah that's true so yeah there's many there's lots more that could be said but but I love that part

Speaker A

that sex that I believe the biblical worldview what I believe it's saying is that sex is saying when you have it with someone I want all of you not only just your body but your past your future your

Speaker A

dreams can I quote you on this I have I literally have what you wrote down and then Sean I want to ask you about some of the stuff You' you've done but um uh what you wrote Anthony was um sex is the

Speaker A

com of a commitment it's an act that literally does say I am committing to all of you to your body your personality your past your present your future your dreams your mistakes you're good you're bad and to tomorrow wow uh with you you

Speaker A

know and that's a powerful statement that that you know that's what sex really comes down to well I'm I'm a powerful thinker and a powerful yes you are abely you are you are the CS Lewis of this gener I feels so my ego is so

Speaker A

boosted right now in this episode this is great I'm so glad anth we need to we need to move to Sean before I become a a maniac just a shining shining Beacon of Pride yeah um so Anthony let me tell you

Speaker A

why everything you just said including the quote is all wrong oh bring it back Sean in that W I'm sorry I was I was ready for that challenge and I'm excited but no I'm kidding no Sean I'm I'm I'm curious in

Speaker A

that context of what we're talking about where or like this coming together as one you know you you've done more research into some of the other stuff in Scripture that it says what are you seeing yeah I mean you guys focused on

Speaker A

the positive and I know we we said before like we want to focus on the positive of of sex and why God created it and the purpose um but honest sensing a butt I'm sensing a huge like massive

Speaker A

butt yeah there's a big butt big butt big butts and we cannot lie Nemo wants to touch this butt um so the reality wow wow going back in the references okay that's that's yeah ancient the here's the reality though is our church and and

Speaker A

again this this is actually not just an AVST issue probably out of all the things we've spoken about this is a larger Christian topic there's not many exclusive Adventist teachings on sex um that are different again that are

Speaker A

different than the larger Christian body in fact as I looked up you know normally we want to kind of look at our church roots on on stances on sex but pretty much they lined up with other Christian movements throughout the 19th 20 and

Speaker A

21st century like it's all it's all similar so but but the thing is with all of those the challenge is it's almost always when sex is brought up you talk about the negatives MH and so that's where this kind of idea that the

Speaker A

Christian church is judgmental or it's not fun oh you don't want us to have sex and party and enjoy these things right um that's where the conclusion is when when generally people in the church if you listen to them long enough a defense

Speaker A

I've heard very often is no no no um people inside marriage and and in a committed relationship uh they're having more sex and the sex is better and I hear statistics on those things um so in my head we'll talk about that in a

Speaker A

second and in my head I almost think in the back of my head like well why don't we talk about that more um but anyways the reality is when I looked in the Bible I had a very interesting um

Speaker A

experience with that and and again for those listening if you hear something that you're like oh they missed that or Sean missed this then then share that with me please um but please if you if you sense that Shawn

Speaker A

missed anything like if you sense you got it wrong if you sense that then please tell us so we can love to hear that just specifically Sean yeah please do um so the point is this I as I went

Speaker A

through scripture um I was looking for what the scripture has to talk about when it when when we look at sex I was specifically thinking about our topic today which is sex before marriage uh the concept of fornication it's kind of

Speaker A

an old timey word used for um sex outside of a marriage context specifically like before marriage like you're not married you're having sex with someone else that's not married um it's different from adultery adultery is where there is a there is someone that

Speaker A

is maritally involved um in Breaking that vow through that that's adultery so um but with fornication I was trying to look up are there any explicit teachings in the Bible um that talk about fornication and as I went through I had

Speaker A

a really hard time finding any passages that explicitly teach that you should not have sex with someone else um if you're not married now now again I want to be careful how I say that I'm not saying that the Bible you just said

Speaker A

something huge again now now don't change the the structure here what I'm not saying um I'm not saying that the Bible condones it it's not like the Bible says oh yeah you can have sex wherever but when it

Speaker A

comes to explicitly stating oh yeah you can't have sex outside of marriage it doesn't explicitly state that now I would I would argue that in principle um you'd have a very hard time um because are you kind of arguing that based on

Speaker A

the fact that like it it doesn't say don't have sex before you're married but it does say don't be sexually immoral don't don't have sex don't forn don't like that that people who are fornicators I hate that word that one of

Speaker A

the worst words I hate even using it I feel like I feel old yeah but here's what's interesting all the the translations of the word pora which is the GRE the Greek word that's used for sexual immorality um it

Speaker A

has synonyms like fornication but fornication I'm not sure that that's equal to sexual immorality now I know that we acate it as such um but I cannot find a passage in the Bible at least in my read through that specifically the

Speaker A

word pora can be appropriately used in the context as foric like sex between two consensual adults or two Conex um people that are um you say Conex I I totally did and uh but so the closest here's the

Speaker A

thing you can go through the Bible it talks about non-consensual like uh rape um and and other forms of perversities right those are obviously wrong we don't need to talk about those um it speaks so that's if anyone wants to look it up

Speaker A

look up uh Genesis 34 1-7 um the Bible talks about seducing seducing is wrong seducing someone into a relationship uh for sexual purposes this was especially outside the context of marriage though this was like a man seducing a woman into having sex before

Speaker A

they were married or like maybe they were engaged to be married but they weren't married yet right and they're using power to get sex right um so Exodus it's like it's not it's it's still on the lines of not consensual

Speaker A

okay you're using you're using um some sort of Leverage to get sex it's coercive yeah so Exodus 2216 and 17 if you want to look up what it says on seducing um then when it comes to actual consensual sex really in the Old

Speaker A

Testament first um you see a lot of the punishing of consensual sex go against the woman so if you don't have um again if you are not a virgin women are p uh punished for that if a man finds out

Speaker A

that that's the case right um but again this is this is the context of a man that wants to get married to her and then and then that's there's the whole process for that but but again as I went

Speaker A

through including the New Testament um and I I looked up some articles I looked at what people had to say about fornication the most common passage that they look at is 1 Corinthians CH 7 veres 2-5 uh 1 Corinthians 7 2 through five

Speaker A

and as I as I look at even that and I go through that I have a really hard time completely being convinced that that passage is talking about fornication you when when you say that you mean consensual sex between two

Speaker A

adults that are not married like in modern context or or even pledged to be married or whatever it may be that passage by the way that Paul uses basically it's it's saying that if you have troubles of lust and the the and

Speaker A

you're inflamed with passion you should get married so that you can find you can control that that's that's Paul who is this staunchly single man saying like right I don't need to get married because I'm fine but he's like but if

Speaker A

you can't if having sex then you should probably get married right and and I see what he's saying there right but but the thing is people will use that and and I was reading some that said this clearly

Speaker A

states that fornication is wrong that sex before marriage is wrong and and the thing is I feel that that's a bit of jumping to a conclusion there's still for me at least a gap there's a gap there that I I'm not quite resolving

Speaker A

there uh because again we're talking about lust and you could almost make a case that in a committed relationship um that you're you're not talking necessarily about lust when we're talking about sexual intimacy but that's a that's another whole right area like

Speaker A

that's a really challenging that's a really challenging discussion actually yeah that's good so it's interesting because I what I don't hear you saying is that it's uh that the Bible isn't saying um sex can be had anywhere what I do hear you

Speaker A

saying is that that we have in essence explained it as the Bible says literally word for word don't have sex you know before marriage yeah it's not it's not that simple now doesn't say that specifically right and I want to be

Speaker A

careful because I don't think it supports I want to be really uh clear on on my conclusion is I don't think it necessarily supports the idea of fornication uh I I don't think it supports that anywhere but to to Simply

Speaker A

say that the Bible gives a clear definition of of why fornication is bad and that it should be avoided at all costs it's sinful um that is a bit of a stretch I I do want to point that out

Speaker A

but I yeah which is challenging because I think many of us were brought up with the notion or at least it was kind of portrayed to us that the Bible had a really black and white clear stance on

Speaker A

the sex before marriage is clearly wrong you know almost I'm going to be honest like even right now you saying this is is messing with my like but no no no wait wait wait wait hold on but it you

Speaker A

feel resistance in your heart right now yeah no even like even though I think I understand what you're saying there's part of me that's like wait no no hold on but I'm even looking up the verses right now that you've mentioned uh in in

Speaker A

our outline and I'm looking at them like yeah like this one says uh for this is the will of God your sanctification that you abstain from sexual immorality but it's not really explicitly stating what that means there's no list

Speaker A

of much as yeah like like that this specific action would be sexually immoral and this one too and this one too and this one too uh but that the general there are lists given of sexually immoral things but fornication

Speaker A

is not included on them that's my point so and that that's a whole other ball game because there's things on that list that could be whole other discussions right um but but my point again yeah is as we look through it it's it's not as

Speaker A

clear as at least I'd like it to be and so I think in principle we we have to go back on what the Bible talks about when it when it comes to sex and when it when you look at throughout scripture uh I do

Speaker A

personally think there is a case principle wise when you look at the themes of scripture that sex was designed to be within a a marriage structure for sure yeah um I think logically that that's just what it is but but I think our rhetoric needs to

Speaker A

change because here's the strange thing fornication is a word I've heard and it seems like a very Biblical word but I can't find in scripture where fornication is used and and maybe someone more intimately involved with pora and and the Greek and Hebrew could

Speaker A

help me with that because I I just could not find an example I've I've seen sexual immorality Branch out to mean different things like fornication but I can't find a Biblical passage where that word fornication should be used would be

Speaker A

the only using of that in instead of it being translated generally as sexually immoral that it could it could just be it could in essence say in our English in a better English not our old English that where you would only translate the

Speaker A

word pora as don't have sex outside of the context of marriage yeah that's what that's what I want to know I think that's where yeah and that's interesting yeah and that's where it's challenging because so I did a little digging into

Speaker A

pora into the word um the other night and um it's so what's interesting is I mean if you want to look this up uh in Strong's Concordance it's a number 4202 uh just for a little reference there great yeah but uh for all of the

Speaker A

theologians for all the theologians here I'm sure there are people who are down with being a theologian um but what's interesting about the word is from all of my digging like and from all my reading of people way smarter than me

Speaker A

way smarter than us you know schol Scholars like it's I think the conclusion is the same that you came to Sean that it's just unclear that like it it means literally to act the Harlot or AKA indulge in unlawful sexual

Speaker A

practice Yeah that's what I saw too but the problem is there's no specific definition or list of things that are that are unlawful sexual practices like like like we do have a few things but um but they're they not a comprehensive

Speaker A

it's not a comprehensive list and the category that we use today which is consentual sex between two consenting adults who are unmarried I don't it wasn't even really a category in that culture and time period right which is a

Speaker A

whole another conversation you know because you mostly had arranged marriages or you're having sex with a temple prostitute or you know or something like that but like the the idea of two consenting adults who are unmarried who live together and have sex

Speaker A

that's that's a very like you know post 20th century IDE why why don't we actually talk about this this is interesting to me moving out of our texting uh segment into this into this just kind of discussion I think this is

Speaker A

interesting because uh when we look at modern ideas of of marriage it's so dramatically different so uh there's this there's this idea that we've had of you're supposed to wait until marriage but in America just is just iner America

Speaker A

a century ago about 11% of women were sexually active before marriage 11% right and now today there's not a specific number but it's a large majority right so that's above 50% large like a large enough majority that it

Speaker A

would be uh far above 50% in essence I found the same numbers yeah yeah that's a dramatically different thing I saw another and and I I cannot stress enough quantify this right now I can't can't reference it right now but I remember

Speaker A

seeing a study um and so take take this with a grain of salt but I remember seeing a study that 91% of people that come to the altar at least one of the people that's that's at the altar has

Speaker A

had sex before so 91% of marriag coming to the alter you mean getting married right getting married yeah sorry that that 91% of people are not going into marriage with both parties being virgins which is I mean like weirdly I'm not

Speaker A

surprised and yet the number is just kind of of like oh wow I didn't realize it was that much um and which is crazy because if you're say 91% I mean think about how many people in America subscribe to Christianity right and so

Speaker A

maybe a large portion of that 9% of marriages that are both virgins maybe a large portion of that is are Christians but that means that the vast majority of Christians are not virgins showing up at the altar which is a completely

Speaker A

different concept and I think for a number of reasons one of which is that we put off marriage for a long time you hit puberty you know somewhere 12 to 17 right somewhere in that age age group right um and on average and in Bible

Speaker A

times you're getting married maybe if you're a girl you're getting married in your teens for sure if you're a guy maybe in your 20s sometimes but later on um but generally young you know like late teens early 20s you know so you're

Speaker A

staving off the the trappings of of sexual Temptation for what maybe four years maybe at the most seven you know uh on average right today people are waiting until they're like 30 to get married you know so that means that like

Speaker A

on if you if you hit puberty when you're 12 and you don't get married till you're 30 that's 18 years that's huge of of of having a sex drive that is strong and and natural and normal what do you do

Speaker A

with that yeah and there's different reasons too there's economic reasons there is uh just the kind of the the more individualistic idea of our society um different like when you see all of your parents get divorced you know you

Speaker A

don't want to get married until you find the right person there's so many different reasons for it and so that I think is a thing that is just completely different today that even though I got married at oh man how old was I I think

Speaker A

I was 22 uh you know that's still almost a decade of of having a a sex drive you know uh and then there's some people who don't get married into to their 30s and so it's like dang you know that that

Speaker A

changes a conversation about sex it just does whether we want to are whether we want to acknowledge that as Christians or not it just does change the conversation M and I think to follow with what you're saying I have you so

Speaker A

did you did you and when you were looking up stuff did you find the fog Zone study no does that sound from so I found the study called the fog zone is done in 2009 so almost a decade ago um

Speaker A

at this point um oh it is a decade we're in 2019 2019 oh my word that's crazy crazy 2009 was 10 years ago wow we graduated in 2010 so that's weird that's crazy it's almost our 10 year guys wow

Speaker A

um but yeah so this study um there's a whole relevant article about it but there um basically what what they found was that they were studying the difference uh between um evangelicals who have gotten married who have had sex

Speaker A

and and non-religious people and they found that 80% of unmarried Evangelical young adults so this is the ages 18 to 29 said that they had had sex 80% wow of unmarried Evangelical young adults um and the statistic for non-religious

Speaker A

young adults same age is 88% so we're like you know Evangelical Christians are only 8% behind it's only 8% behind Anthony let me use that for a second if we have those statistics there I want you to picture now as Jesse

Speaker A

brought um the idea of I don't know if it was camp meeting think of the camp meeting setting where a presenter goes up with the with the water bottle right and you spit in the water bottle and 80%

Speaker A

of the people watching this is just a guilt trip for them yeah everyone's like everyone's thinking about what they did oh man that's that's something exactly so again the whole point of this is we need to accept the reality of of what

Speaker A

we're working with we can all agree that um life would be simpler if you know we already said this life would be simpler if there was more committed relationships and it was always within the context of marriage but if if these

Speaker A

are if these numbers are true and say there's always going to be the cynical side of me that says oh this is only one study whatever yada yada y right but but there's very little doubt in my mind

Speaker A

that this is reality um when you look around this is this is reality there's most people and I would say maybe even argue that most Christians that is it's not much different there's there's plenty of Christians living together

Speaker A

having sex and it's before marriage it's outside of a marriage context um so with that being said even if the numbers are smaller whatever it may be the principle is still we need to change the way we talk about it because that analogy of

Speaker A

the bottle as much as you can say and argue sure yeah it'd be better to have the new bottle who are you speaking to right yeah you're speaking to such a small amount of people in that room yeah

Speaker A

because is I understand that there's a need when you're preaching or giving a talk or you're with a close friend there's a need to convict right and there's a there's the idea of the Holy Spirit convicting our hearts and and and

Speaker A

leading us to a better a better life but I think there's something to be said about doing that in a way that's positive you show the joy and love and and it and it causes you to look Inward

Speaker A

and say oh there is Brokenness in me you don't necessarily need it to be explicitly said you're broken you're a damaged uh water bottle right uh instead it would be it's always better and I found that in my life the sermons where

Speaker A

I come to the conclusion that I need to change something is the best sermon it's not the one where it's explicitly stated you should do this not that um or the spirit's convicting you as opposed to just saying like oh yeah you're a

Speaker A

terrible person or you're you're dirty and messed up if you've had sex before yeah right right so the I I think it I think it's interesting though because like Sean I'm so glad you brought it up I think we need to talk about that

Speaker A

reality because when you when you brought that up like yeah 80 potentially 80% of the people in the room this is just a guilt trip you know it actually creates an issue for me as a pastor because I have have heard especially

Speaker A

like I would think I was watching a sermon by Carl lent he's the pastor of Hillsong New York and great seems like a great Pastor he I saw this sermon by him and he was talking about you know Purity

Speaker A

in essence from a very traditional Evangelical oh wow and I was uh I I I was weirdly surprised I don't know why I was so surprised but uh just it was very traditional it was you know uh be pure

Speaker A

don't you know we went on I don't remember exactly what it was but along the lines of like you know didn't have any sort of sexual contact before before marriage and I was surprised by that because I'm sitting

Speaker A

there like okay this is a great ideal right like I want to reach to to to level 100 you know but the reality is is that what do you do when you have people who love Jesus so much and are so close

Speaker A

to Jesus and yet they're in a relationship where they are so drawn to each other yeah you know and sexual sexuality is just a reality in their relationship but they are so in love with Jesus and and um it's a point of

Speaker A

guilt and shame for them but they're still sexually active because it's a powerful thing so what do you do with that and and it's interesting because it creates a problem for me as a pastor because I don't want to stand up there

Speaker A

and then and and preach the ideal knowing that like what I'm not actually making a difference here you know that's what and maybe maybe this is just my opinion but like that's what it feels like I'm just going to be preaching this

Speaker A

ideal setting this standard for people saying good luck you know be be pure before you're married and I know that most people haven't you know and and so it's like what do you do with that like do you keep preaching the ideal but then

Speaker A

say ah but you know if you haven't Jesus still loves you cuz that that feels wrong too that's like yeah Jesus still loves you if you had sex it's like which is true it's a true statement yeah yeah

Speaker A

of course but like it just it feels condescending it's the same it's the same with I'm praying for you right cuz cuz it sounds beautiful right it sounds beautiful to say I'm praying for you but but it's it's not actual value we've all

Speaker A

heard that phrase where it doesn't it it well at best it doesn't have value at best it doesn't have value at worst it's condescending um so it's similar in that way yeah well can I can I talk about

Speaker A

this for I actually want to talk about weirdly enough the the destructive parts of sex that i' that I've seen yeah yeah um so for instance uh I so I did this this week of prayer at this high school

Speaker A

over this kind of out in the Midwest and after I talked about sex I did it was all about relationships the third day was sex you know it was like the second week of school too so a bunch of

Speaker A

freshmen had just come into school and they're like I just IM it looked like they were deer in the headlight just like what is happening what is high school high school is intense about sex but I was talking about it and this

Speaker A

girl wanted to talk to me after and she expressed to me she was oh man I want to say she was a sophomore a junior and she expressed to me that when she was like young like 13 14 her boyfriend at the

Speaker A

time who was similar in age convinced her to have sex and after that he broke it wasn't it wasn't long it was a 13 14 year- old relationship like they didn't stay together for very long and she ended up she's she had now come to this

Speaker A

point where she felt like if she didn't have sex with people like with guys M they wouldn't her they would find her valuable they wouldn't find her as something that she and so here she is weeping in front of me because she feels

Speaker A

trapped into giving away her sexuality for the hope of being loved and cared for by a boy but not even a man who she's married to a boy yeah who doesn't even know what he wants that's what she

Speaker A

felt pressured into and so uh you know God took it away and the words I was just like you don't have to do a thing to earn God's love and so you don't have to do a thing to earn his you know to to

Speaker A

this other boy you don't have to it that was in Ence what I was saying and it was the apparently the first time shade heard like the gospel you know just like you don't have you can't do anything to

Speaker A

earn God's love so you don't have to you know and he loves you anyway so you don't have to earn earn love from this other boy but she was she had been destroyed by this concept that she she

Speaker A

was now trapped in this that she felt like she had to have sex there was another girl who I who I knew knew um she called me one day talking about how uh how she she had been dating this guy

Speaker A

for a year and he had told all of his friends of their sexual exploits and so after they broke up all of his friends just saw her as a sexual object this guy came over to her house one time this guy

Speaker A

she was she barely knew came over to her house he had toiletries with him like like he was planning to stay the night toothpaste he he was expecting to stay the night just by showing up at the door

Speaker A

you know this is this is who she was now um you know I've seen this damage I I there's a there's a young couple that I know now um and they uh they live together uh and they are two of the

Speaker A

greatest people I know but they uh they're probably far too uh air quotes in love to really have a mature relationship and what I mean by that is they're sexually active and so I think that they are they have these Road

Speaker A

rosecolor glasses on to the max because they they uh they're not really seeing I think the realities of relationship not that they should break up but just that I think that they want to get married quickly and the problem is that they're

Speaker A

going into it not really having I think address the whole of their relationship because they're sex they're sexually active so this is some of the stuff that I've seen and this is just probably touching the surface of of some of the

Speaker A

stories that I and I'm sure you guys have stories too so this is not simple I I I I don't think that I can honestly ever say that sex outside of the context of marriage is a good thing but then I

Speaker A

have this problem right the the tension I've seen well no but then I've seen all three of us know a couple that they live together now they're about to get married they're you know 3 or four months out and I know they're sexually

Speaker A

active and they have a great relationship right and I'm like so what am I supposed to tell them you know what am I am supposed to say stop having sex move out you know like what do you do in

Speaker A

that context you know there's these gray areas that become a huge issue and I don't know what to do with it I'm just I'm being completely honest as a pastor I don't know what to do with that and I

Speaker A

think that brings up the extremely complicated area within this topic of Engagement um and especially BEC like and I I remember feeling as an Engaged person like this is real weird because I said the words will you marry me she

Speaker A

said yes you know like we've made this commitment and like we're going to get married it's only a matter of time you know and so feeling this pressure and this in this in this like this very natural like I'm in love with this woman

Speaker A

she's in love with me God made this and he made this attract like this attraction isn't something that's a result of sin or something evil or bad or wrong like this attraction to want to be physically active sexually is a thing

Speaker A

God made and it's good yeah you know and so there's so there's always there's this feeling and I remember uh at a certain point us like our our whole fan friend group um like we didn't our whole group our group group yeah the group The

Speaker A

the Jesse Sean Anthony fan group uh yeah we have we have about thousand thousands of followers Millions around the world uh no I remember our friend group because we were all dating and engaged around the exact same time and I

Speaker A

remember all of us coming together and having like finally talking like after being engaged for a while and all of us saying like oh man like we all feel the same tension like like we all feel the same temptation we all feel the same

Speaker A

like man this isn't really talked about this is like we were never really told how to manage this you know like the fact that like we're going to get married but we also feel this tension you know so the only yeah sorry Anthony

Speaker A

the only thing I've heard on it when and and we don't really talk about it a lot and the only thing I've heard is stories that people give in response to that is well people break off engagements you

Speaker A

see people break off so be careful cuz and and we had a teacher in high school that had this crazy story of of actually breaking off his current his current wife and I say current wife his only wife um they've been married for

Speaker A

years and you know whatever it's great but he he broke off his wife's engagement with another man oh I totally forgot about that so like and when I say that the story I mean more of the story is like like she left her fiance for him

Speaker A

and so it's kind of like that and there's stories like that where people say so if they if they had been sexually active you know just because they yeah like imagine all the baggage that would come with that right so it's like that's

Speaker A

the that's the story that's given here's my response to that though is you can use the same argument for marriage yeah right you could always get it man this is a problem because like the when when we have generationally seen so many

Speaker A

marriages implode you know how many people are like oh marriage is safe you know we seen marriages implode all the time and so it's like all of a sudden you realize that's not much safer and I need to be careful here cuz I'm I'm

Speaker A

happily I love my wife uh but I want to be careful because I I think I I fully understand the fear of like well yeah I don't want to have sex to I'm married but that's not safer in fact it's it's

Speaker A

crazy is marriage is almost more dangerous because if your wife were to leave you it would hurt even more than if if your girlfriend left you right and when you look at the statistics you know the 50% statistic in and outside of the

Speaker A

church you know it's it's yeah so I think it's a very real fear yeah so Sean sorry I I cut you off but I think it's I think at that point it's just semantics to to argue that um that

Speaker A

oh you're you're really you really have to be careful cuz if that happened what would what would happen um sure that's one very small scenario um and yes we know people that have broke off engagements and whatever but it's the

Speaker A

same reaction you have when someone breaks off a marriage right because there's that there the commitments been established right they've both agreed to this commitment um so sure neither one is ideal both are in a it's it's both

Speaker A

the result of Brokenness and sin in this world um but again we're not the problem is when we are in church or when we're talking with people people feel like church is no longer real because we're always speaking to the ideal and not the

Speaker A

reality oh so good and so if we're not see okay I have an opinion about that I have an opinion about that go for it we should let's move the opinions on actually I want to talk about this is it

Speaker A

opinion Zone time this is this is opinion Zone time here we go welcome to the opinion Zone we'll do it with my B here's my opinion okay what's your opinion in spite of everything we're saying in spite of everything

Speaker A

we're saying I firmly believe that we need to continue to set out the ideal and this is so weird for me to say right now I think we I think we have to because I think to watch down oh man I

Speaker A

don't even know if I believe this but I also believe this that I think to water down the ideal yeah is to in essence say continue doing unhealthy things and and and that's not any better I I I'm being

Speaker A

real here I don't know what I don't know if this is the best option but I just know that to water down the ideal and then to say yeah you know honestly like I can't honestly say don't have sex

Speaker A

before marriage cuz I know 80% of You Are doing it you know like to to then say Oh yeah I guess that's fine then doesn't doesn't really do what sex is Justice when we talked at the beginning about how powerful sex is where it's

Speaker A

this coming together of one like we have to acknowledge that that is no light thing yeah right that is incredibly powerful so I'm saying this as my opinion but also I don't know if I believe everything about it but at the

Speaker A

same time like we have we can't water it down we can't water scripture down yeah because I think why you're right Sean that it does say it doesn't explicitly say some of this stuff the concept is very clear that

Speaker A

that marriage and sex go together that sex outside of marriage is almost always a destructive thing in scripture at least portrayed as that right like you look you look at a bunch of the stories especially in the Old Testament it's

Speaker A

almost always destructive and so like that to me says we have to continue this concept of sex and marriage are what is God intended right yeah it's the gold standard not hold up that idea yeah so so that's my opinion we have to continue

Speaker A

to hold up the ideal but I'm also struggling with holding so I think there's a difference between holding the ideal and knowing the right thing to say to people with questions so again if if the whole thing is we have bad

Speaker A

explanations for a great ideal we don't need to change the ideal we we I don't think we really need to change that to change our explanation at least not this one yeah we we in essence we don't have to change our

Speaker A

belief we have to change the way we explain our belief is that what you're saying yeah I think we need to change the way we explain the way we we carry out it and and I think it's so

Speaker A

challenging because um we grew up in the same church where we're having we had the same problem so it's it's almost like blind leading the blind so so we have to for for us to get out of which I hear I hear

Speaker A

that blindness is a side effect of self-pleasure yeah so I was also taught that masturbation was uh would lead to blindness what was that is that is that a Kellogg quote a John Harvey Kellogg I don't even know a whole other oh well

Speaker A

sorry I had to bring that up just because it's like that's another bad explanation well back then I don't know about the blindness well yeah actually the blindness was there but they actually believed it made you go insane

Speaker A

too but the thing is that was actually um Sean said it so matter of fact but but that was a common um teaching medically too it wasn't just in our church now now Ellen I think Ellen White adopted that

Speaker A

um but it was actually taught medically too but that was isn't that terrible like you see you go to an insane asylum you're like oh my goodness oh my goodness how many of these people got here because of that like that's a

Speaker A

terrible thing to think that's the reason check their Knuckles sorry we totally oh my we to you get Harry yeah you get hary like hay hands right yeah sorry anyways we just went off on a horrible tangent uh Sean you were saying

Speaker A

that it's like the blind leading the blind because we in since we went through the same bad explanations so now now what are we doing it just compounds yeah we absolutely need to have more conversations in the open

Speaker A

about it I think that's where it starts because here's the thing all three of us I mean sorry spoiler alert I don't think we have a perfect answer for how to remedy this but but the reality is we

Speaker A

need to have more conversation in the open we need to create an atmosphere in our church that we're safe to talk about it where we're where we're not afraid for I don't know for our employment or for our status in our church based on

Speaker A

our opinion um or our challenge to a certain held belief within our church right and and that's I think something we need to be more open about and we need to have more dialogue about what is healthy what

Speaker A

is we need to have a conversation about what healthy conversation is oh like our church at a point we're at a point where we're not having healthy conversation in so many areas in fact I think this podcast exists because our church fails

Speaker A

to have healthy conversations 100% on a whole this podcast exists for that purpose so if we're looking at at sex we we we can't even start with saying we need to have healthy conversations we need to have a conversation about how to

Speaker A

have healthy conversations yeah mhm well so now I'm going to totally uh go against the last part of what you just said and ask you because I totally agree with you Sean we absolutely need to have that but for the

Speaker A

sake of our pod our episode today uh I want to ask how could how could we talk about sex in a healthy way now so Sean you would come up with a great idea of you know say this not that you know so

Speaker A

like if if we were to say to somebody who is asking well what do I say about sex you know and we said say This Not That what what would you say careful this is a this is a recording of you

Speaker A

saying this for all of eternity I know I know we're going to show this to your to your your son your newborn son right after his birth he'll listen to it exactly yes and hopefully hopefully he'll he'll be fully indoctrinated yes

Speaker A

absolutely um I'm trying to think of all the different scenarios I mean honestly if um if someone has us basic the the big question right is the one we've had bad explanations on is um should I why can't

Speaker A

I have sex before marriage um and I would probably start focusing on what you just what we've already talked about at the beginning is I would say marriage is a beautiful or sex is a beautiful thing that God created for us it wasn't

Speaker A

meant to be awkward it wasn't meant to be taboo um but it also wasn't meant to be broken and there are many examples of Brokenness in this world and instead of focusing on all the details and the fear-mongering I would focus more on the

Speaker A

beauty that we said that we didn't get in our childhood and even and here's the thing it's going to be awkward no matter what you do if you talk about the fearful Parts it's going to be awkward with a Junior High kid it's also going

Speaker A

to be it's it's also going to be awkward to say that sex is beautiful um I remember when pastors did say things like that uh even though it was few and far in between I remember there were a

Speaker A

couple of sermons in my life that I heard um some charismatic pastors say sex is beautiful I love it with my wife and go into it and i' I'd be all like snickering in the back with with friends

Speaker A

and stuff but here's the thing I'd rather have that uncomfortable conversation and say that and say sex is beautiful God created it it's an amazing thing that um actually draw us closer to him and to um someone else in this world

Speaker A

and focus on that I would I would rather say that than say oh look at all the STDs in the world look at how painful it is and you're you're stuck with it for life and imagine you're a water bottle

Speaker A

that's broken you know um and been slobbery slobbery dirty water bottle you so I know that that doesn't fully remedy it I know that doesn't answer everything but I would start with that I would say you know look at the beautiful before

Speaker A

you look at the ugly Anthony what would you say oh man well yeah I think I would just say uh and I have said this um before um it my favorite thing to say when I'm invited into like Bible class to talk to

Speaker A

the seniors or whatever uh is to say that I don't really uh believe in or like saying uh that um don't have sex before marriage because it's a sin and it's breaking like a rule that God made because as we've already disced

Speaker A

discussed in this podcast it's it's a little it's a it's quite a bit of a gray area that you know we're not going to find a Commandment that says Thou shalt not have sex before marriage uh and in

Speaker A

that black and white way right maybe we could find conceptually but you're not going to find a statement on right we're not going to find a statement that says that um but right um so I like to if if

Speaker A

I'm if I'm giving my framework um and something that I I would say and have said to to young people it would be um that sex is less of like before marriage is less breaking a rule and more that

Speaker A

when you have sex god considers you married um and when so if you're if you're having sex with someone and you don't follow through with all the other levels of commitment that the act of sex inherently communicates um you cause

Speaker A

pain and Destruction for yourself and for others uh and so because because sex was created to be glue that creates commitment that it almost like pees out commitment that's a little bit of a crude metaphor uh but uh it sort of just

Speaker A

uh expunges uh commitment um there were so many other phrases you could so sorry it was just it's just this topic it has me in the in the bathroom humor I'm trying to resist it but I'm secretly 12

Speaker A

forever um because sex was created by God to to be the glue that creates commitment with a person when you give that glue to someone you're not committed to it actually you cause yourself pain and damage and it actually

Speaker A

leads to less joy and that's what I would always say and that's what I would come to in conclusion is that simply sex before marriage leads to less Joy than sex within commitment and that's why God created it to be that way because if you

Speaker A

believe that God created everything that he creates and and like principles that we find in the Bible it's all for our flourishing and for our joy and for our Shalom and for our peace and so like God doesn't make things up just to be like

Speaker A

create rules and and regulations and to prevent fun but in fact uh we find that restrictions in this area actually enhance and create more joy so yeah that's what I would say is uh dang yeah I want to mention two I just want to

Speaker A

mention two really quick you mentioned a really good point there which is that God creates rules or the things he sets up is to is to bring more joy or more intim intimacy or more closeness with god um and and again you can go through

Speaker A

the Bible that's actually true all throughout there are people the laws but's a lot of beauty there when you see that set those to be more intimate with Israel um and and you actually see progression from the um

Speaker A

from the end of or I believe it was at the start of Leviticus to the end or the beginning of numbers and as you get to Deuteronomy you actually see the progression Israel has there's a certain point where they're outside the tent

Speaker A

they're not in God's presence but because of the the laws that um God set up they actually eventually got closer to God when they started following those they were able to be in his glory and and there's a there's there's a really

Speaker A

profound way of looking at that I agree that that the rules uh are beautiful but I do think that focusing on the the beauty of of the thing of of sex specifically is is probably our best our best motivating factor honestly we have

Speaker A

to create an ultimate you can get that like oh yeah this rule is so that I'm safe but unless it's internalized in your heart it's not going to make a huge difference I think I think the the crazy

Speaker A

thing for me is if we're talking about sex before marriage I think the way that I would talk about it is um when you are sexually involved with someone and I I would this is a little bit of thing that

Speaker A

we probably can't talk more about today just based on time but I would honestly say that sexual intercourse is different than other acts of other sexual acts sexual intercourse that sometime yeah I just I believe personally that that is

Speaker A

that is a different level of sexual intimacy than other things not that other things aren't sex but that is that is kind of the Pinnacle of it uh that being said uh you know sex in general if you're sexually involved before marriage

Speaker A

in essence especially if if you haven't committed to each other uh you know if you haven't stood up before a bunch of people and in front of a bunch of people and said I am committing to all of you

Speaker A

and you have that level of commitment you have that level of accountability you have that understanding that I've committed to you this is it um if you don't do that then the door is always open and and reality is is I don't want

Speaker A

to be naked while the door is open you know and so good the the thing is is like I if I'm going to open myself up to you but you're not committing to every part of me that means you're leaving the

Speaker A

door a crack open and and if if there's that possibility that you're going to ditch a a sign that you don't like something about me that you haven't committed to right then me being naked and vulnerable and exposing all of me to

Speaker A

you is just opening up this incredible amount of pain that that could happen and I don't want to do that as a fear based thing I don't want to say oh look at all the pain that you could

Speaker A

experience but rather that like I don't want to open up myself to someone unless they have fully committed to me and I will talk about like within the context of sex in marriage that is the most amazing is there there is this sense of like wow

Speaker A

you and I are together I've committed to all of you you've committed to All of Me and because of that there is so much more Beauty in it because it's safe you know and I get that marriages fall apart

Speaker A

and and and that's the most unfortunate thing about about this world in in a lot of ways to me but the the reality is that in the context of a good committed marriage sex is the most beautiful part

Speaker A

of it because the door is closed and it's and it's not a bad thing that the door is closed the reason the door is closed is so that you can be vulnerable and intimate in this space together without anybody looking in who doesn't

Speaker A

have that same level of commitment for you right right and I think that's powerful like we' say oh the door is closed so marriage is a trap no the door is Clos so that you can be vulnerable and emotionally open with each other and

Speaker A

I'm I mean let me just say one more thing the the most the closest times uh where I have been spiritually emotionally and mentally connected to my wife have been times surrounding the times where we were intimate with each

Speaker A

other like sexually intimate with each other where you have these moments of spiritual connection and emotional connection that you cannot replicate outside of that moment outside of that moment of intimacy and it's not even just in the moment of intimacy it's just

Speaker A

in the in the time surrounding and there is something about that that if you're not completely committed to each other you're going to always struggle to have uh what it was meant to be that's yeah that's great I think uh

Speaker A

I think that's a great spot to end on actually that's yeah our goal is to yeah you just said that Sean I'm going to I feel like I just have one more thing to say which is no you're GNA you're going

Speaker A

to you're going to uh oh man you're going to fill a buster me go for it go for it I want to hear it um no I think one of the biggest lies of our culture is that freedom

Speaker A

means no restriction at all yeah because I think there's this idea like something that I've said in you know Bible class with high schoolers before is like like you know you can have sex with people without being married and it could be fine and it

Speaker A

could be great and you could have a fun time like it's not and I think we have to acknowledge that that fact that it could be great and it can be awesome it can feel good it can feel amazing and it

Speaker A

can be a great experience and maybe you walk away feeling like that was great or like that was just part of you know whatever um but I you know and and we have this idea that like that's what freedom is that

Speaker A

like ultimate personal freedom is like I get to do whatever I want with whoever I want to do it with and like it's great but I think we're too consenting adults so it's okay right we're too cons yeah

Speaker A

um but I think the reality is is that there's a principle within the the structure of the Universe I think in the world that restriction actually creates more freedom and not less you and and actually you know so if you're if you're

Speaker A

in a plane like you wouldn't want to be in a plane that has no roof and you like you would be dead immediately you know and so like in in in the case of being in an airplane restriction actually

Speaker A

create creates the ability for you to flourish and and sort of live and not be dead yeah you know and there's just so many more examples of that you know like like a a campfire within a fireplace you

Speaker A

know like creates warmth and heat and life and joy but then you know released you know there's been ton of ton of fires in California you know city of paradise just recently burned totally to the ground I knew people who lost

Speaker A

everything you know in that case it's it's destructive and and awful so like the idea that restrictions inherently create like boundaries inherently are create less freedom is actually just it's a myth it's not really true and I think that's sort of

Speaker A

what like this like cultural worldview breakdown we have when we talk about this this topic well yeah and and and just to to hit on that in the context of marriage is yeah exactly you can so much more intimate I can be so much more

Speaker A

vulnerable I can be so much more honest about how scared I am about something about how terrified I am I can you know spirituality too is inherently vulnerable and so I can be so much more spiritual even with my wife and

Speaker A

vulnerable with my wife because I'm not worried about her leaving tomorrow I'm not worried about her seeing me and being like oh oh yeah I don't know if I want that in a husband you know no she's committed to me I'm committed to her and

Speaker A

so sex is the glue it's the ultimate is the culmination of that and because of that it is it it makes everything around it even better and so that is why I think it's so powerful and that's why

Speaker A

maybe going back to my opinion I think we have to continue to hold that standard up not as a guilt trip water bottle dirty water bottle way right but as a this is the ultimate of what it could be don't water it down right right

Speaker A

honestly don't water it down into something that it's not because if it's not what it could be it's not what it is Champion an alternative position which is God's outline for for Joy you know which is sex within a committed

Speaker A

relationship and talk positively and and use better language which I think is what we've all we've been [Music] saying all right everyone just want to thank you so much for listen to this episode of seeking what they sought a

Speaker A

couple quick notes uh would you take some time to leave us a review it super super helps us to kind of know how we're doing whether you're on Google Play or the iTunes uh would you just stop and

Speaker A

leave us a review and we would super super appreciate it as always feel free to also check out the show notes below because we tend to put more information down there for things that we're talking about so check that out and of course we

Speaker A

want to thank Eric edstrom our 17 time dundy award winning producer for all of his hard work and uh making us sound great so we will see you guys next time on seeking what they saw [Music]

Topics:sex before marriageChristianitybiblical perspectivechurch cultureyouth pastorsrelationshipscommitmentbad explanationssexualityChristian fellowship

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