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This episode is sponsored by Bible Bricks. They've created a brick building set of the wilderness sanctuary.
Exploring the Sanctuary Doctrine and the significance of 1844 in Daniel's prophecy with Ty Gibson.
Key Takeaways
- The Sanctuary Doctrine centers on prophetic fulfillment and God’s redemptive plan through the sanctuary.
- 1844 is a pivotal year in Adventist theology but remains debated even among believers.
- God’s judgment is portrayed as healing and restorative rather than punitive.
- Historicist interpretation of prophecy offers a comprehensive understanding of God’s justice and mercy.
- Adventism continues the Protestant Reformation’s emphasis on biblical truth and religious liberty.
Summary
- The video discusses the Sanctuary Doctrine focusing on the prophetic timeline in the book of Daniel, especially chapters 7, 8, and 9.
- It explains the four empires symbolized by beasts: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, and the rise of a unique 'little horn' power.
- Daniel 8:14’s prophecy of 2300 evenings and mornings is examined, with traditional Adventist interpretation linking it to the year 1844 and Jesus’ heavenly ministry.
- Ty Gibson expresses openness but also skepticism about the 1844 interpretation, suggesting alternative historical contexts like the Maccabean revolt.
- The discussion highlights the therapeutic and redemptive nature of the sanctuary and judgment, portraying God as a divine therapist.
- The video contrasts different Christian eschatological views: preterism, historicism, and futurism, advocating historicism as the most coherent lens for understanding God’s love.
- The importance of 1844 in Adventist theology is debated, especially its role in the cohesiveness of scripture and the gospel message.
- Ty shares his personal journey from skepticism to partial acceptance of the sanctuary doctrine through academic study.
- The video situates Adventism within the Protestant Reformation and its emphasis on religious liberty and nonviolence.
- The overall aim is to build a bridge toward understanding the sanctuary doctrine as a demonstration of God’s plan and love.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Overview of Sanctuary Doctrine
- 05:14Assurance and the Sanctuary as God’s House
- 10:42Historicist Interpretation of Daniel’s Prophecies
- 18:08Jesus and the Prophetic Timeline
- 24:13Covenant and Symbolism in the Sanctuary
- 29:09Four Empires and the Little Horn Power
- 35:40Protestant Reformation and Adventism’s Roots
- 41:24Interpretive Lenses and the Role of 1844
- 48:50Personal Reflections on the Sanctuary Doctrine
- 51:42Conclusion and Theological Implications
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
Yep, the one from Exodus with around 1,200 pieces, custom minifigs, and instructions that explain each part of the tabernacle as you build. Visit them at biblebricks.com to learn more and maybe buy yourself a set.
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How's it going, everybody? Welcome to Seeking What They Saw. We're in part three with Ty Gibson about the sanctuary, and we're going to specifically talk about 1844 today. And, uh, just before we get into it, um, I just want to lay out
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what we'll be talking about so that you can orient yourself in the text specifically. So we're in the book of Daniel. You got Daniel 7, 8, and 9.
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Those are the main chapters. All throughout the book of Daniel, you have, uh, all sorts of different prophecies that are being made. Uh, and they mainly refer to four main empires. You got Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.
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Babylon was conquered by Medo-Persia. Uh, Medo-Persia conquered by Greece. Uh, Greece conquered by Rome. That's the main, uh, flow of the whole text. But then you get to Daniel 7, 8, and 9. It’s going to go into some, uh, some more, uh, uh versions
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of this, this same pattern, um, with some potential things that I'll bring up that I'm not so sure about. So, Daniel 7 basically starts off with these four beasts that represent those four different empires. And it ends with, off
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of that last beast, there's this little tiny horn that arises that is this power that's different and unique to all the rest. And then you have the, uh, this, this moment where there's this, this throne room scene where the Ancient of Days is
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seated and the beasts are destroyed, and then one like a son of man shows up. And then after that in Daniel 7, there's an explanation and a little bit more elaboration on what, what happened there.
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Then in Daniel 8, the next chapter, which happens, it's a vision from two years later in Daniel's life. Uh, we have a similar thing except in this chapter there's three beasts and then a little horn, but it's still the same kind of
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little horn imagery as Daniel 7, and then it goes through and explains some more of what happens there. But again, we have the main, uh, the same main structure in both chapters. And then, uh, Daniel 9 will go into some more of the more prophecies
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that involved, uh, the Christ who will be showing up, the Messiah that'll be showing up, and that's kind of the general flow of the whole. But right in the middle of those, those three chapters, we have Daniel 8:14, which is
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this prophecy that I don't read it explicitly. It says, uh, here I'm in Daniel 7. Uh, Daniel 8:14, it says, "And he and the angel said to me, 'For 2,300 evenings and mornings, this will continue. Then the sanctuary shall be
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restored to its rightful state.'" And the way Adventists have, uh, have interpreted that is that this 2,300 days or these 2,300 evenings and mornings that are interpreted as days end up ending in 1844, uh, where Jesus transferred from one
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apartment of the sanctuary to the most holy place and is in the second phase of atonement. That's at least the really generic explanation of this whole thing.
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So I'll just express two, two things that I have here. And the first is that I'm not so sure that Daniel 8:14 results in 1844. I'm not totally sure. I'm, I'm super open to it. I'm just still dealing with the make
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it make sense piece of it for me. Um, but I see how we get there from a timeline perspective. But, uh, to me there is another, uh, interpretation of this text that seems to have some plausibility, uh,
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though it has a ton of issues as well, and that's that the interpretation of Daniel 8:14 is best explicitly tied to a historical event, um, in Daniel, in, uh, it would have been a few hundred years after, a couple hundred years after Jesus
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uh, dies and goes to heaven in this thing called the Maccabean revolt. Not totally set on that. Not totally set on 1844. It could be some mixture of the whole thing. That's where I'm at personally.
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Um, but that's the overall idea. Uh, Ty, um, Ty is going to be here to talk with us about this, but I am curious about Sean and Anthony. Any, any ideas about 1844 that you experienced as a kid?
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Well, I think grown up. Yeah, I think that's where Sean, you go. I, I mean, Ty, we've gone through two parts, and I think I loved the fact that when we concluded part two, you described this idea of divine
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therapy. Like this whole process of bringing, being brought back into God's presence, uh, is therapeutic. Judgment is not something to fear. It's actually something that heals us. It, it brings us into oneness with God.
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And I think the, the, the dissonance growing up is that we didn't see that picture. So you've beautifully in the first two parts painted that picture of God as this divine therapist who just wants to heal us and redeem us, and that is, um, that's
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where we can have a deep sense of assurance like I'm saved. I'm loved. Um, God wants me to be with him, and that's the, you know, sanctuary is God's house. It's where he wants to be with us. And so the, the piece I think that a
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lot of people, not just, you know, Jesse and I and Anthony, we've had long conversations about 1844 is just being able to make peace with the fact that it's not just a, um, apologetic, uh, point for Adventism to
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feel like we exist or matter, but that the context of 1844, 2300 days, that it actually matters in the cohesiveness of scripture and understanding who God is, what his plan is, and that having an alternative view, um, leads to issues. So we just want to
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hear from your perspective, I think, on how not coming to the conclusion of 1844 and 2300 days leads to problems with the gospel, uh, leads to problems with the, the grand, you know, picture that of God's plan that's seen and expressed through
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the sanctuary doctrine. Um, because that's where, you know, in Christianity there's a lot of different points of view. The, the three schools of thought of preterism, historicism, and futurism.
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You know, those, those three viewpoints, you know, all three Christians, if you want to individualize them, would claim they believe in a God of mercy and love and, and look forward to God's justice and vindication in the future. But I
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think what, what Adventist Adventism argues is, yeah, we agree in the goodness of the gospel, but the, the most complete and intellectually honest and sound way to show that God is actually love would be the historicist lens that
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it actually shows that God is actually love. So that's the bridge we're trying to build here today is how do we get to where that is, that is the case where we can, we can see that laid out, 'cause there
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are some points back and forth where we struggle sometimes and, and seeing the coherency of that argument being the only and best argument for the way we read Daniel 7 through 9.
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Yeah. And Ty, just to represent, I, for me, I think I'm still trying to, I think I'm convinced that something happened in 1844. I think for me, and just to be specific, you mean something happened in heaven because I just want to be specific
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that's where my struggle is. I'm not sure if something happened in heaven. I know something happened like with the start of a movement here, right? Uh, but, but I don't know if that, yeah, anyways, go. Yeah, I, I think, and for context, I forget
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if I've shared this, I think I have on one of these parts, you know, like when I was in seminary and Dr. Davidson's class where, you know, sanctuary, doctrine of the sanctuary, he asked, "Is there anyone here who doesn't believe in
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the sanctuary doctrine?" I was the only one in the whole class that raised my hand, and he said, "Why?" I said, "I do not see it being, I do not see a synthesis between it and the gospel, and
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I just haven't been shown compelling evidence biblically." And through the course of that class, Dr. Davidson, he was able to show me compelling evidence.
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But I, I think I'm still looking for language for normal people, not for scholars, pastors. I'm trying to understand how to articulate it in a way that makes sense. Builds a bridge. I think that
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and I think this may be the doctrine that I think the Adventist church has frankly failed to explain his the most historically throughout the years of Adventism because the number of people especially in our stage of life millennials and
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younger who don't even understand what it is who can't articulate and pastors as well right all three of us are children of the system and yet it's difficult to explain to articulate so I think for me I'm trying to understand
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verbal language to explain this same God who's actually love who comes as a sacrificial king who doesn't rule with domination but rules by laying down his life. How is that king connected to 1844 and and what happened in 1844? So
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yeah, I I thanks for the opportunity. I would I would uh really look forward to the opportunity to explain this. So thank you that you guys are willing to explore it. Uh full disclosure, I believe the uh doctrine as taught by the
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Seventh Day Adventist Church. Um and I think it's biblically robust and clear. Um but I it needs to be immersed in gospel light so that it makes uh sense on on all levels for our experience. But the doctrine itself, I think, is sound.
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And um yeah, I' I'd love to just launch into that and explain why I think it's relevant.
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Rock and roll. I think that historically there are three main schools of thought regarding the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation roughly divided into predism, historicism and futurism. Predtoism means from the word predator past. So if people could just think predism means
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that the the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation for the most part took place in the past. Um, and futurism, of course, is just what it sounds like, that they will happen, they will they will be fulfilled uh in an
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approximate 7-year period of time, right before the secret rapture occurs. Now, historicism is just what it sounds like. Historicism says that the book of Daniel begins with the prophet's time, Daniel in this case. So he begins each of his large prophetic swaths with
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Babylon or Media Persia. He straddled both of these empires um in his in in his time. And so his prophecies begin in his time and then he prophesies forward to the escaton, the final events of human history, the
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end of human history, the second coming of Christ and the establishment of the kingdom of Christ. So that's Daniel. The book of Revelation follows the same exact pattern in that it begins with the prophet's time, the Roman Empire, and prophesies forward
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to the escaton, second coming of Christ, and the establishment of the kingdom. So the reason it's called historicism is because it takes in the entire historical scope from the time that the prophet is prophesying forward to the second coming of Christ and the
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establishment of the eternal kingdom, new heavens, new earth, etc. That's the historicist view. That is the 7th day Adventist interpretive lens um for the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. But the 7th Day Adventist Church did not originate this interpretive lens. Not only would
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Adventism not exist without this interpretive lens, the Protestant Reformation would have never occurred. all of the magisterial protestant re reformers um Luther Zwingley Hus um Calvin all of them were historicists in their interpretation of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation and that's how
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they arrived at the conclusion the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 is none other than the papal power which launched the Protestant Reformation They they protested against um Rome in its papal phase of existence.
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They did not complete the Protestant Reformation by any stretch, but they launched the Protestant Reformation on the historicist premise. And the reason why the historicist interpretation is uh I believe true is because it is natural and intrinsic to the text
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itself. It's obviously what's happening and you don't need to you don't need to do any kind of theological gymnastics to arrive at it.
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What do I mean by that? Well, Daniel explicitly says, "Hey everybody, this is what the head of gold means in the Daniel 2 prophecy. It is Babylon.
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Hey everybody, this is what the goat uh represents and the ram represents. It's media Persia ram goat Greece." So Daniel explicitly tells us that his prophecies are about the unfolding of a succession of empires. Okay, just hold that on on on the table for a
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minute. Um, so that's historicism. Adventism holds to that not because we fabricated it, but because the Protestant reformers um held to it. And the reason they held to it is because it's just a natural reading of Daniel tells us what it means. All you have to
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do with the prophecies of Daniel is say, "Oh, if the head of gold is Babylon, well, which kingdom displaced Babylon?" Oh, me Persia. And which one dis and you can see where I'm going with that. You can just reason forward to the Roman
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Empire because Daniel tells us that's what he's talking about. But Daniel died before there was any Gree Greece part of the prophecy or Roman part of the story.
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So, so he's projecting forward beyond his time. And every one of his prophecies says all of this is going somewhere. And that is the kingdom of God being established as the only eternal kingdom which will not be displaced by another
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empire that rises and conquers it. And if you wouldn't mind, I'll I'll explain the genius of Daniel is simply this. The genius of the prophecies of Daniel is that Daniel's prophecies are a study in contrast.
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And the study in contrast is you have a series of predatory beasts that all rule and dominate by deception and force and violence and war. And as they are dominating by those character traits and those principles of domination and war and bloodshed,
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then Daniel 7 comes along and says, "Ah, but I saw God upon his throne, and the judgment was seated." He was seated in judgment and and he was surrounded by 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands upon thousands of angels and a
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fiery river came out of his throne and then it says that as God is seated upon his throne of judgment and these empires have paraded before him Babylon, Meo Persia, Greece and Rome. Here's where the study and contrast comes and
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this is the genius. This is the whole point of the book of Daniel. Then one like the son of man was brought near before him and stood before him. And this one like the son of man received the authority and the glory and
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the kingdom and the power forever. And then watch this. But the body of the beast was given to the burning flames that emit from the throne of God like a river.
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So the judgment in chapter 7 is in favor of one like the son of man.
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Right? So hold this thought and against this domination system of empire. It's against oppression and and and and violence and war and slavery and all the principles by which these kingdoms operate. Now, oh, wait a minute. There's one like the son of man who stands
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before them. Now, pause right there and fast forward to the Gospel of Matthew. Jesus comes on the scene of action and he says, "Hey, disciples, lean in.
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The kingdoms of the Gentiles rule over one another. That's how they operate. It shall not be so among you.
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That's beautiful. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And even if I the son of man. Now Jesus in this particular part of his ministry by the way son of man is his most frequently used call it his favorite way
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of referring to himself. I am the son of man. What is he saying? He's saying I'm the guy in Daniel 7.
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Daniel I'm the Daniel 7 guy. Yeah. I'm the one in Daniel 7 that stood before the the throne of God and God judged in my favor. Which means by logical extension in Daniel 7 that God is judging in your
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favor, in the favor of my disciples and my followers because Daniel 7 says judgment was made in favor of the saints of the most high God. Now we tend to look at this as um judgment was made in our
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favor. Okay, we get to go to heaven post, you know, postresurrection rather than than hell. But Daniel 7 is not talking about that kind of uh judgment.
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It's talking about a different kind of king operating by a different set of principles and with a distinctly different kind of character.
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And that different kind of king is operating by a mechanism, a means, a set of principles or call them relational dynamics that are completely contrary to violence war oppression domination.
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He steps up to the plate. Okay, that's Daniel chapter 7. And then you go to chapter 8 and chapter 9. And according to the historicist interpretation, Jesus is described as the one who, it's just fascinating. It says, okay, so this
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son of man, the way he operates is he will be cut off but not for himself.
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So now you have a messianic figure, a king, an emperor, a a head honcho kind of figure that is acting out self-sacrificing love for the others. He submits himself to the domination system in a nonviolent act of protest against empire. This is
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this is our Lord. We are worshiping. That's good. A savior who says, "I'm going to break the cycle of retaliatory violence by by inaugurating a different kind of kingdom that operates in the face of evil with good, in the face of violence
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with submission." So Jesus is the nonviolent Messiah who is cut off but not for himself. And it is that that being cut off but not for himself that Daniel says in chapter 9 fulfills covenant. It is called in Daniel chapter 9 the covenant
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of his love. Quote unquote. Daniel chapter nine look up the verse. The covenant of his love. In other words, Jesus is the one who is fulfilling the covenantal promise of God to the world through Abraham.
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You remember there's a whole context here in in which God says to Abraham in chapter 12 of Genesis, "Hey, I'm going to bless the whole world through you.
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You're going to have so many kids that you can't even number them like the sands of the sea and the stars in the sky." And and then in chapter 15, Abraham is doubting that covenant promise. And he says, "But God, how can
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I know that you're going to fulfill the covenant through me? I'm old and have you seen Sarah? There's no way we're having babies, Lord. It doesn't look plausible this this promise that you've made. How can I know that you will
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fulfill the promise back in chapter 12 of Genesis? Now we're in chapter 15." And God says, "Okay, here's how you can know. Take three animal sacrifices, cut them in two, top to bottom, and lay them across from one another."
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And then he does it. Abraham cuts these animals top to bottom, not cross cutting, but top to bottom, laying each side across from one another. And then Abraham start, this is all in Genesis chapter 15. He starts to fall asleep.
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It's getting the sun goes down and right over there there's flies swarming over these carcasses that are cut in two and and what's going on here? And then as he's about to fall asleep, he says in Genesis 15, I saw something like a torch
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of fire pass between those pieces and exit the other side. Well, there's a whole historical setting here. The historical setting here is that God is using a common covenantal mechanism of the times in order to make his point
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that he is a covenantal God. At that time, if you had a piece of property and I had some money and I want the property and you want the money, we wouldn't go to a lawyer and sign a contract with our
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signature. We would actually pledge our lives to fulfill our part of the covenant by cutting a animal into laying it on the ground, gathering around the family and friends in the community. And then each of the two parties would walk between the severed
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animal and emerge on the other side symbolically saying to one another into the covenant, "May it be done to me as is done to this animal sacrifice if I don't give you the money for the land." Well, may it be done to me as is done to
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this animal sacrifice if I don't give you the land. Once you give me the money, you give me the land, I'll give you the money. Deal. And they both have said, "My word is equal to the integrity of my character and therefore my life."
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God says, "Hey, Abraham, I will fulfill covenant with you." So now, fast forward. Daniel's a Hebrew dude. He's completely immersed in the Abrahamic promise. He knows what's happening here.
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And in Daniel 9, he calls what's happening, what's unfolding in history. So, if you were to back up from from Daniel's prophecies and and and John's prophecies in Revelation, really back up and and summarize the one thing that's happening, it's this. God is
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keeping covenant with his people. And it's called in Daniel 9 the covenant of God's love. And Jesus is the one that is according to chapter nine cut off or severed. I don't you know probably don't have time to get into it but that that
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language in Daniel 9 cut off is a direct reference to the covenantal cutting that is in the historical understanding of Daniel and every other Hebrew person.
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The animal sacrifice. In other words, Jesus in Daniel chapter 9 is the one who is cut off but not for himself. And Daniel chapter 9 says that he does this to keep covenant of love with the people. Now none of that
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none of that which is by the way called the gospel is understandable outside of the the historicist interpretation of Daniel 78 and 9. Now, I I said a lot there. So, I'm going to pause in order.
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Yeah, that's good. because I could because there's a lot more because I would like to actually break down at any time that you guys say go actually what's happening in Daniel 78 and 9 and show you that the historicist
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interpretation is true and that in it in fact points to exactly what the sanctuary said it would point to and that is the sacrificial part and the high priestly part. It it's it's as clear as day. Once you see it, you can't
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unsee it. So, but I'm going to pause there because I just said a lot.
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Yeah. Yeah. I think we absolutely want that, Ty. Um, yeah, you did say a lot. So, I mean, let's let's synthesize and and sort of come together. What I hear you saying is Daniel, especially 7, 8, and 9. These
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are the chapters we're focusing on for this part. Like, it's portraying it's doing this contrast work between all these empires and the empire of God or kingdom of God.
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It's doing this contrast work. We're saying these empire Daniel he has this understanding that these empires are are one way. They rule with power, oppression dominion domination.
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Yes. But then it's it's juxtaposing that with the kingdom of God and Jesus the Christ, the uh the one to come, Messiah, and he's going to rule a very different way.
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Yes. And in fact, all the way to Don't you like him? You're just like, whoa, that's the king we've all been waiting for right there.
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Right. This is Yeah. In fact, I was getting excited as you were talking. I was like, Tai is preaching right now.
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Um, so it's it's juxtaposing these two types of rulership and then this this king who's coming, Messiah, the Christ, he he will be he will not only rule in a different way, but he will even be cut off, which is in the Hebrew, it's the
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same type of word for the sacrificial covenantal exchange happening. And then he will, but it's not for himself. It's it's for the it's for someone else. It's it's for you, bro.
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It's for the other. It's for me. It's for you. It's the gospel. And so what what you're saying is this is the backdrop in which cuz we're we're here today to talk about 2300 days about investigative judgment about 1844. But in even in order to get
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there, this is the backdrop is what you're saying. These are the curtains in the room in order for us to understand how we're getting there. Is am I getting that?
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Yeah. Yeah. And it's and the main point I'm making is that Daniel is actually unfolding human history from his time forward in advance. And and he's unfolding it. He's saying, "Okay, here's what's going to happen. There's going to be a series of
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empires Babylon Mea Persia Greece and Rome. And they will operate like vicious predatory animals as they are symbolically depicted. And then there's going to be somebody, a different kind of king that will arise who will sacrifice himself for the others and
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refuse violence as a mechanism of problem solving in the world. And that Messiah is going to going to come again.
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And after the the the time when he's cut off, he's going to come again. And there's going to be Daniel says there's going to be a movement at the end of time, which I would like to talk about.
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There will be a movement at the end of time to destroy the covenant. This is in so so you have to remember that in Daniel Jesus is called two things.
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He's called the son of man. That's in that's in chapter 7. And then in chapter 11, he's called the prince of the covenant.
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He's the prince of the covenant. That's his name. That's that's who he is. He is the one who implements God's unfailing love in human history. He is the prince of the covenantal love of God. But in Daniel chapter 11 where he's called the
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prince of the covenant, there's another power that is mitigating against the covenant. And it says in Daniel 11 that he will have rage against the holy covenant.
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But that that the people who know their God will do great exploits. they will do great and mighty deeds in response to the rage against the covenant. So, so, so this is where going back to what Jesse said and you know I
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would like to explore this in greater detail. I believe Jesse and and all of y'all that in fact and I want to show you this that Daniel 8:14 does correspond to earthly events that that we can see and it is it corresponds to a truth
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recovery development in history that advocates in favor of the covenant against a monolithic religious ious institution that is having rage against the covenant. There's a historical power that is trying to destroy the gospel, the covenant, by a merit-based system
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that turns the attention of the human mind to a earthly system of salvation. Mhm.
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that is that is presided over by earthly institutions. And the book of Daniel is saying, "No, no, no, no. Look higher. Look higher.
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The son of man, the prince of the covenant, gave his life for you." And this monolithic religious power is a grand masquerade. That's not that's not Christianity. I mean, it professes to be Christianity, but it's not Christianity.
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It is it has rage against the holy covenant. That is to say, it is it is it has a doctrinal and behavioral system that is defined by the same character as all the other powers before it.
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Violence bloodshed coercion and it's completely contrary to the character of God. But now it's called Christianity. And it is thereby mitigating against it's waring against it has rage against the holy covenant of God's love by creating an earthly system
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of teachings and practices that are worksbased. It is a colossal system of salvation by works. It is paganism masquerading as Christianity.
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And those who know their God, Daniel says, will do great exploits. Not exploits with sword and gun and fist and bomb, but exploits of preaching the gospel with such clarity on the stage of earth's history that we can see there will be a a contrary
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movement that will preach the gospel of God's covenantal love with such clarity that it will that that that other power will lose its credibility and its power and its force.
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Then it will fall. It will fall. And that I believe I'll close by saying this. That I believe began with John Hus, John White Cliffe, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Zwingley, etc. Those guys rose up to topple that system of
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salvation by works. and Adventism along with other strains of the Protestant Reformation that we could talk about how this all divided into a million pieces, but the core idea uh is runs through and and I believe that Daniel foretold that that system
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would fall in response to a protest in the form of words and teachings and truth, not in the form of throwing punches back. Although a lot of the Protestant reformers did throw punches back, they burned their own people at
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the stake. It's said we could go into why that was problematic. Um, you know, although it's obvious. And then you had parts of the Protestant Reformation beginning with like the Antabaptists and then developing into various other branches, the Menanites that were
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nonviolent that said no, no, the gospel is inherently nonviolent. The Protestant reformers, you know, Luther and Calvin in particular were all about killing people who didn't agree with their new light. Well, their new light was new light and it was good
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light and then they were persecuting people. But then you have strains of the Protestant Reformation in which Adventism exists. Adventism is an inherently nonviolent religious liberty movement in the context of the unfolding of history and the the three great
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revolutions, the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution and the American Revolution. With those three revolutions, you have the results of the early work done by Luther and Calvin and the other reformers. So all those reformers preached a message that toppled empires.
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You guys, the French Revolution was the result of the preaching of Luther and Calvin, although it was separated by centuries. Because what's happening here is the people are beginning to see that in the gospel there is freedom and that you you you you you are not
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called upon to be governed by monarchs and popes and then that that works itself out until finally you get the the the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution and the American Revolution. The American Revolution. The Constitution of the United States of America is the gospel
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in a governing document. It is who wrote the Constitution of the United States of America and the Declaration of Independence. Yes.
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Jefferson Adams. No. Paul. The Apostle Paul. Jesus. Jesus. And Paul are the author of the governing documents of the United States of America. Biological, historical, theological, unfolding, and extension.
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Jesus injected ideas of nonviolence into the thinking process of humans that Paul and the apostles took up so that they were mowed down as martyrs and refused to take up weapons against their oppressors and the martyr the blood of martyrs was
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like seed and Christianity grew by virtue of its nonviolence. Christianity grew because of Daniel 7 and8 because the one like the son of man wouldn't throw punches back at the other empires.
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Uh let's put a bookmark here because I there's there's there you're dropping so much gold so many golden nuggets. Um and so I I want to I guess circle back to you know you had kind of uh outlined a
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framework for how you want to show us. We're going to walk through Daniel 7:89 and kind of show us the historicist interpretation leads to leads us to the Adventist structure of belief on this issue. Um, and so I wonder if you could
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do that uh for us because and I think and and I just want to I guess circle back to the beginning because I think this conversation itself is inherently I think loaded in the sense that um for our generation
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it's uh I think a doctrine that's been presented very intellectually and without I think an explanation in a way that makes sense and and cares for the part.
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And so I think really what we're I I just want to reiterate I guess like why we're here I think is to to learn from your perspective not necessarily to debate with it but but to hear how how
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have you seen that this can be explained in a way that is life-giving that makes sense and I think we're all just Yeah, man. I think our posture is is one of learners. I think I know Jesse. I
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love him a lot. I've known him for a long time. So, I think he he he comes into a room ready, I think, with his like perspectives and um but I think he's here as a learner. I'm here as a
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learner. Sean's here as a learner. So, I I think we're we're all just ready to I want to emphasize I'm here as a learner, too. Honestly, and I really mean that. I I simply believe that we're sitting on a gold mine of historical
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theological truth that I I I'm sorry for the passion in my voice. I'm just I'm just fired up about it. The thing the thing is the thing is is is there's so much beauty Yeah. in in historicism and I'm afraid
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that it's been just made a dusty dry old academic idea on paper. Yeah. And um but at the center of it is Jesus.
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Jesus, the one we love, the one our hearts beat for. Jesus is the one who is at the center of these prophecies.
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Anyways, sorry for the interruption. Go on. No, I I love it and I think we all love it. So yeah, could you walk us through help us understand maybe start us from from the top if you were explaining it?
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Okay. How how do we get from Daniel 7 to 1844? Okay. What what how does it connect and yeah help us understand?
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Okay. So first of all I do want to clarify because I mentioned that there are three schools of interpretive thought. Predtoism, historicism and futurism. um the Protestant Reformers and the Seventh Adventist Church are the last, you know, Adventism. There's no
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Protestants churches anymore that subscribe to historicism. There are scholars within Protestantism who are returning to it right now. And I knew that would happen the moment I got baptized into this this gig called Adventism. So I knew that eventually futurism andism
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would play itself out and be seen to be the vacuous uh interpretive lenses that they are and that is happening now.
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There are um there are Protestant scholars who are saying ah no that you know because here's the thing the Protestant Reformation was based on historicism and and Adventism is latestage Protestantism. Adventism by the way has its problems. Let's not the
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but the the problems that Adventism have has are human problems, not Adventist problems. It doesn't matter if you're do a little experiment with me here. If you're a if you ba if you pastor a Baptist church, a Presbyterian church, a
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Methodist church, um any church, or you are the president of an Elks lodge or a Rotary Club, and you get any group of humans together, there will be the same basic spectrum of psychological profiles that will group together.
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Every group of people has conservatives and liberals, wing nuts and screwdrivers and hammers, ho hos and twinkies. Every single group of humans that get together have the same spectrum of human personality types and dysfunctions. So, Adventism has problems, but those problems are
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human problems that have an Adventist flavor to them. But if you read, for example, a book like what's so amazing about grace by uh Philip Yansy, which I mentioned to you guys before, well, he was raised in a fundamentalist
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Baptist, you know, church. and he basically describes some of the stuff you guys have described to me regarding your Adventist experience. And he was a Baptist.
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You know, it's all the same thing. There are really only two religions in the world. Legalism and the gospel. That's it. Those are the two options. And legalism, like all bad math problem solutions, has a myriad of forms.
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2 plus 2 could equal 969 56, 101. Wrong answer. Wrong answer. Wrong answer. So legalism or paganism or whatever you want to call it, the self I I describe it as the self as center orientation.
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That's the that's human religion 101. And then there's only one thing that's different. It's the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the grace of God manifested in Christ and it is alone and without parallel in human philosophy, theology and history. Okay. So, so
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predtoism and futurism, the Protestant Reformation, the Protestant reformers knew nothing about these interpretive models. These were developed by the Catholic Church in order to get the heat off the Catholic Church.
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The scholars went to work in Catholicism. People with high IQs and the ability to process, you know, information and make stuff up made up a couple of interpretive lenses. Predtoism and futurism. And what do they both have in common? Both predtoism and and
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futurism block from our vision the entire block of history. the piece of history that Daniel and Revelation are actually dealing with in you know greatest force and that is the reign the long dark reign of legalism's supremacy over human
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thought. It is a blockage of the gospel of Christ that is underway in Daniel and Revelation. And that's what Daniel and Revelation are mitigating against. and predtoism and futurism simply say, "Hey, let's not look at that long swath of history where where shame was
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commodified for dollars and people were told that God's favor could be purchased by hard cold cash and you get St.
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Peter's Brazil out of it and a bunch of other monolithic, you know, structures that are beautiful to look at but were built on the backs of people who were paying money in order to get forgiveness from an institution that was anything
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but Christian. So, so that's what those two interpretive models have in common. They block our vision to what actually happened in history. And that's intentional. They were these are both you know predtoism and futurism were manufactured by the Catholic church and
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almost all evangelical Protestant churches have signed up for either if you're on the liberal end of the Protestant spectrum you sign up for predtoism it all happened back in the past with Greece and Rome Roman Empire in this pagan phase or if
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you're on the conservative fundamentalist side of Christian thought you sign up for uh Darby's version of futurism, which is just the Catholic version of future futurism on steroids with a fabricated secret rapture, a return to Israel. All of this plays into
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foreign policy in the United States right now with Israel, which I won't go into, but the the entire psychoedifice of futurism points forward to some diabolical being that's going to arise like like the Damian movie with you pull
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back his hair and you see 666 tattooed on his head. It's complete fiction. It's complete fiction. It it it's not biblical. And this guy's going to be a political leader and he's going to be really handsome like Gavin Newsome and
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he's gonna and but under his if he loses any hair, you peel it back 666 is tattooed on his head and he's going to lead the whole world into seven years of Yeah. and a barcode. And it's all just
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it's unbelievably idiotic and none of it has any bearing on what's happening in Daniel and Revelation. Okay. So why is historicism important? Historicism is important because it is the interpretive lens through which you can discover the gospel of Christ with maximum clarity
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and beauty. That's why so what's happening in Daniel 7 and 8. Let me just read to you here rapid fire succession.
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I'll pause though because um I don't want to keep talking. if you want to insert something.
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I think here I here I go then. Go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. Go ahead.
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Well, I was just going to say go. Sorry. There's always there's always the little lag when we're online. Uh so I think what you're saying, Ty, is that if we get so if you go back to Anticus, one of the things is that if we
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interpret that, you're saying that all the things that we led through the the the string of church history, right? the the reformers and everything that we're pointing to there. It's almost like you're saying like in Titus, although you know what he did was horrible, but
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in some ways in the grand scheme of what you would say is the consistent narrative that you see all throughout Daniel 7:8 and 9 and the whole point of Daniel, it's almost like an insignificant piece and it doesn't it doesn't fit what
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the actual purpose of what Daniel is being told through these these visions. Like it wouldn't fit with what's actually happening. Is that is that fair? It doesn't fit with what totally it's totally fair. I would even go so far as to say I would even go so
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far as to say that some Adventist scholars uh who subscribe to the historicist interpretation would even concede that what happened with entit similar to the esqueological thing that is happening in Daniel. I mean, a a Greek ruler basically went in to the
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Jewish temple and set up an idol to Zeus for crying in your soup. This had to be very offensive to Hebrew sensibilities and it was right.
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Um, but then when you come I'll just throw this on the table and Jesse, you're going to have to process this at some point. Jesus Jesus Christ who is crucified during the Roman Empire part of the prophecies of Daniel
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Revelation quotes from the book of Daniel and says when the abomination of desolation is put in the holy place then etc etc. Jesus himself after Antiochus Epiphanies is pointing forward.
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Yeah. He's pointing forward to a fulfillment of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. He quotes Daniel 7 and8. And he says, "Hey, that's future." Well, it was future. It was fulfilled in kind at the destruction of
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Jerusalem where the Roman soldiers went into the temple and destroyed. Just read read the description of the destruction of Jerusalem in in in historical literature and it's like Josephus for example it's astounding um or will Durant read that history it was they
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they just what Jesus said happened you know not one stone will be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.
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So then Jesus indicates that that what Daniel is saying is future to his time and it was fulfilled again in type in kind in quality in principle in the pagan Roman Empire doing its dastardly deeds with the temple and then Jesus pre
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projects forward esqueologically to the final fulfillment of these events at the end of time um when when what Daniel is pointing forward to will reach its um its fulfillment. Okay. So, with that in mind, I'm going to riff on what
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Sean said, and that is I'm going to read you why the Antiochus Epiphany's interpretation is similar in kind in that he did a dastardly deed in the temple, but is not the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy. As I read these descriptions
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in your mind, you this is Anticus Epiphies. He shall have a mouth speaking pompous words against the most high. Um its body will be burned with flames in the final destruction. The one whose kingdom uh is defeated and will be replaced. This is
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all in chapter 7 by the kingdom of the son of man. The kingdom of Antiochus Epiphanies is the kingdom that will be defeated by the son of man. And the son of man will set up his kingdom in place of Antiochus
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Epiphanies. Verse 21, he makes war. This Antichus Epiphanies character makes war against the saints and prevails against them. Verse 22, until the ancient of days is said is seated and then his body will be thrown to the burning flames.
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Verse 23, he devours the whole earth and tramples and breaks it in pieces. Verse 25, he speaks great and poous words against the most high and persecutes the saints of the most high and he changes the times and the laws of the most high.
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Verse 26, but the court was seated and the books were open and his dominion is taken away and he is consumed and destroyed forever. Verse 27, after which the kingdom and dominion of Christ and of the saints is established, and there
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is an everlasting kingdom that is in the place of this character, this little horn character.
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Ty, one of the things about uh these two chapters, seven and eight, is that in the in the traditional Pritoist interpretation, they're connected.
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They're both both of the little horns referring to Antiochus Epiphies. It my personal struggle with it is that I don't see the two as being the same. uh Daniel 7 seems to be more like that papal authority, that papal power that's
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being talked about that has misrepresented the gospel and and uh and harmed the message of Christ all throughout those thousands of years. But then Daniel 8 seems to be different because you're you're kind of tying in Antioch Epiphanies into Daniel 7, but
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but they seem to be different. Daniel 8, you get the the one, two, three beasts and then the little horn, and it comes right out of the the the goat. uh of uh of um of that chapter which
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traditionally goes back to Greece. And so they just seem like different horns and uh two different entities. So little horns, same same symbol but two different entities. They have a similar thing though like I mean when you get
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the papal power of Daniel 7 it is this religious authority mixed with civic authority. And then in Daniel 8 it's similar. I mean, antic Epiphanies, he's claiming religious authority when he puts up a statue of Zeus in in the in
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the sanctuary. He's claiming religious authority when he takes away the Jewish sacrifices. I mean, this is a pretty traumatic event in Jewish history. It would have been like this this uh still I mean, is I mean, they celebrate
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Hanukkah off of off of these events. It's like a a a a day of of rejoicing because they finally got their sanctuary back after it been taken from them. uh all the language later on talking about how he raised up to the most high. It
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seems to be speaking to to this this power, this guy who at least claimed that kind of authority that I could be like God and I could do away with all of his stuff. So So I I know you're
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connecting the two, but I don't see the connection there. I guess I'm curious about your thoughts.
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Yeah. So So I do see the connection. And the reason I see the connection is because first of all, point number one, that Daniel's prophecies are built on what is a kind of obvious repeat and enlarged pattern. So the first prophecy
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in Daniel chapter 2, the image Babylon meeters, Greece, Rome, 10 toes, divided Rome, stone cut without hands, smites the image of the feet and grows to a great mountain which is the kingdom of Christ. Then when you come to the same
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exact period of history is dealt with in the Daniel 7 prophecy, but now in place of the head of gold, there's a a lion.
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And in place of you see where I'm going with that? So you got the lion, the bear, the leopard, and then the nondescript terrible dragonish type of beast. And then you have the little horn. That's in chapter seven. And what
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I just did is I read through the description, the various descriptions in many verses in chapter 7 of the little horn. Now, I'm aware that in the interpretation that that you're referring to that they would not see Daniel 7, the little horn
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in Daniel 7 and the little horn in Daniel 8 as the same. But I'd like to show you guys why I think it there's very sober consideration and why I think there is a connection. So, so if the
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pattern holds true in Daniel where Daniel is covering the same swath of history with a repeat and enlarge kind of format what's happening go ahead I can just interrupt. Can you explain for people listening what does repeat and
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enlarge mean? What is that? It means it means that what's happening in Daniel is that as Daniel is going through his series of prophecies, there is an increased enlargement of focus on the end part of the prophecy. So, so, so for
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example, when you're in chapter 2, you have Babylon, meet Persia, Greece, and Rome. When you're in chapter 7, you have Babylon, meet of Persia, Greece, and Rome. And then you have Rome expanded with all this little horn language.
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And then when what's that? Yeah. You're zooming in with greater details. Now what in chapter 2 was just legs of iron and 10 toes.
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Boom. Kingdom of God and Christ is set up. When you come to chapter seven, now you have verse after verse after verse that is explaining the character of that final power in human history with lots of detailed language which I just
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quoted rapid fire. Well, then when you come to chapter 8, there's no mention of Babylon. Babylon drops off and now you're dealing first with the ram or first with the Yeah. with the ram which is Media Persia then the goat which is
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Greece there's not even a mention of of Babylon soil so now we're trucking forward and now in chapter 8 the almost the total focus is on the the character and activities of the little horn and the response of Messiah
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to that little horn in real time in history. So when you come to, you know, all ask one more question on this stuff.
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Yeah. is I mean I get the repeat and and enlarge but could not Daniel 8 be a a slight repeat and a zoom in like I mean that that almost in the Antiochus Epiphanies in the Antiochus Epiphanies uh
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interpretation if if Daniel 8 would be talking about him it it almost seems like uh repeat the pattern same idea but then it like zooms in on this this this specific moment in Jewish history that's a bit of my qu
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like why why could it not be well because the activities of the power that are described are outsized to the actual events in history that Antiochus Epiphanies for a pentilar single act accounts for. And if you go with the
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Antiochus Epiphanies interpretation, you have to account in chapter 8 for language that you would have to find a fit for with Antiochus Epiphanies that is very difficult to to find a fit for. And thirdly, you have the Messiah in the
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esqueological part of the unfolding of the prophecies answering to Antiochus Epiphanies problems in a single event that he performed in history. No, you have the Messiah responding to the larger events in history that dominate history that are being dealt with by
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Daniel 8:14. And so what I'm suggesting is that Daniel 8:14 is answering to a very large development in history that has defamed the character of God and uglified the character of God in human consciousness down through history. in Daniel 8:14
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and through chapter 9 is the Messiah responding to all of that which to interpret it as a Antiochus Epiphanies I personally think would be an outsized response.
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Yeah, it's it's a major historical you you got the entire the entire Christ event answering Antioch's epiphies. I think that point needs to just register with clarity because and here's why. Here's why. So, so you guys have your your
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Bible there and hopefully the people who are tuning in can take a look at this too. If you just open um to chapter 8 first of all um I want to call attention to the first of all actually first first
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of all I'm going to reach over here and turn a light on because we've been talking so long that the sun went down.
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Hold on. need a little bit of I need a little bit of illumination here for my uh for my eyes uh because uh the window was helping me with lighting. It's not helping me anymore. Okay, cuz I'm uh
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Eastern time zone and it's sundown and and getting dark. Okay, so check this out you guys. If you look at chapter 8, you have the ram described in uh the first few verses and in verse four, this this this ram became great. The end of
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verse four, just follow this language here. The lamb became great. Okay, the word there is a very interesting word uh in the Aramaic here in Daniel. Um this this power waxed great and the word means something like expanded
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or or or exalted or became large enlarged itself. Okay. And then you have in verse 5 following the ram that became great you have the male goat and then the male goat is described and he the male goat um it says that he became very
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great well he became very great um the male grow in verse eight so you got he became the the ram or media became great but the but the goat Greece became very great. Now watch this. Watch this. Then
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verse 9, and out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great. So watch the pattern here. Great, very great, exceedingly great. you have an escalation of power and domination and self-exaltation even territorial you know domination.
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Okay. So the way this prophecy would have to read with Antiochus epiphanies is the Media Persian Empire became great.
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The Grecian Empire became very great and Antiochus Epiphies became exceedingly great. Wow. Greater than the the Greeks Greek Empire.
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Greater than greater than Alexander the Great who's referenced you know earlier as in in the prophecy but I won't go there. So that's the first thing I want to call our attention to is great um very great exceedingly great. But
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whoever whoever this this this little horn power is in in in chapter 8, it it outsizes all the other kingdom in some form.
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Yeah. Yeah. The other kingdoms. Okay. For my brain, that is not one little pitily dude who set up a statue of Zeus in in the temple. Now, that that can be debated, but I'm simply calling your attention to one of the patterns here.
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And if that was the only pattern, well, you know, we might say, "Okay, well, no, nothing persuasive if all you have is that." Now, watch this. Now, watch this, you guys. So, in verse 9, this little horn became exceedingly great
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toward the south and the north and toward the glorious land. So, so he's moving horizontally to take up geographic space. this this this power, this little horn power. Now watch this verse 10. And it the little horn grew up
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to the host of heaven and cast down some of the host to the ground.
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And cast down some of the host to the ground and some of the stars to the ground. Now watch this. And trampled them. Now watch verse 11. And he even okay he oh wait a minute he even exalted
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himself as high as the prince of the host that is of heaven and by him the sacrifices were taken away the daily sacrifices were taken away and the place of his sanctuary I'll come back to that was cast down now watch this the place
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of his sanctuary was cast down Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily in parentheses or italic sacrifices.
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And he cast the truth to the ground and practiced and prospered. Okay, so pause right there. So this little horn power is described as waxing not great, not very great, but exceedingly great. and expanding to the north, south, the east, the west, taking
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up geographic space. And this power is described as going even to the glorious land, taking up space in Israel.
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And this power is described as exalting himself even. Oh my goodness. is the feeling you know even yes even he has exalted himself even as high as the prince of the host of heaven and there's debate here over okay is this
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prince of the host of heaven here the messiah the one that is called later on in in the book the the the prince in chapter 11 the prince of the covenant and in chapter 12 the prince who stands
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up for his people I think that the prince here is Messiah because of that connective theological tissue with chapter 11 and chapter uh 12 where Jesus is referred to as the prince of the covenant and the prince that stands up
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for the children of of God's people. But check this out. We know from this very context here without going to chapter 11 and chapter 12 that this is indeed the Messiah because the little horn performs a series of dastardly deeds
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against the host of heaven against the prince of the host of the heaven and cast the sanctuary to the ground and cast the truth to the ground. The moment you have the word truth that is cast to the ground, you know now that this this
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this quad of of of activities, cast the host down, cast the prince down, cast the sanctuary down, cast the truth down. You have a collection of of items that are desecrated and cast down by this little horn power. Now, here's the kicker, and
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you guys are going to find this so amazing because Daniel, it's amazing that Daniel actually saw this. Okay, so then here's the part that Adventists generally never look at, and it's verse 13. We just hopped to verse 14. Unto
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2,300 days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. But chapter 13 is the key to understanding what's happening here.
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Verse 13. Then I heard a holy one speaking. And another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, pause right there. You've got two holy ones that are having a conversation. Now, all of this stuff has gone down in chapter
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8. All this stuff is described. This little horn is doing this, this, this, this, and then a holy one. By the way, I won't go into the details here, but Bible commentaries, you will find uh older Bible commentaries identify one of
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these holy ones as a character called the wonderful numberer. The wonderful numberer. Just hold on to that language. Look it up in older Bible commentaries. The wonderful numberer is the interpretation of one of these holy ones um in the original language. That
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is to say the one who gives prophetic numbers and Bible commentators used to say that this is this is Messiah that Jesus is the one giving this prophecy. So one of the holy ones is the pre-incarnate Christ. Well, I won't try to prove that
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right now although you know maybe you guys want to have a future conversation and we could look into who who this character is. But check this out.
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I'm following you along in the Hebrew. So, it's it's interesting. One holy one asks another holy one. You got two holy ones here. One of them is Michael, the pre-incarnate Christ, who and that does not mean that he's a
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created being, etc., etc. That's a whole different subject. One of them is the pre-incarnate Christ, the wonderful numberer, the giver of time prophecies.
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And the other one is Gabriel, who is the attending angel with Daniel. repeatedly throughout the book of Daniel. Gabriel shows up and says, "Yo, Daniel, I'm going to explain to you what you just what you just heard. Gabriel's the one
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that shows up in the Gospel of Matthew, by the way." To say, "Hey, here I am again, Gabriel, the one who gave the prophecies. I'm here again as the one presiding over the explanations of the prophecies of Daniel." But the key point
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here is fascinating. Look at this verse 13 again. Then I heard one holy one speaking and another holy one, two heavenly beings said to that one, and here's the question.
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How long will the vision be concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression that causes desolation and giving both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot? This is so mindblowing.
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Daniel 8:14 is the answer to the question posed by Gabriel to Jesus in chapter 8 verse 13.
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Daniel 8:14 is is is Jesus answering Gabriel and saying, "I'll tell you how long." How long what? So here's here's here's here's the key question. How long what how long will the vision be concerning what? Well, concerning the
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dastardly deeds that are chronicled in the previous verses, you've got this power called the little horn that arises and he casts the host of heaven to the ground. He he he exalts himself even above above the prince of the host which
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is Jesus. Uh and he he casts the truth of the gospel to the ground. The truth here is the gospel. I could show you that but but I'm just going to roll with this. and he casts the sanctuary to the
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ground. He sets up an earthly system that displaces the truth of the gospel that the prince of the host presides over. Prince of the host is the prince of the covenant is is is the Messiah who is the dispenser of
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the gospel light to the world through his incarnation, his life, his teachings, his sacrifice, his ascension, his high priestly ministry and his return. If the Christ event and you have a little horn system here and this is why I said that it's outsized for the
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Antiochus Epiphany's interpretation. You've got this earthly system that is setting up a parallel sanctuary system on the ground.
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On the ground. He cast the sanctuary to the ground. And he casts the truth of the gospel to the ground by setting up this false system of worship that focuses people's attention on an earthly priesthood, on an earthly sacrificial
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service called the host and transubstantiation and the entire edifice of salvation by works with penance and works and purgatory and the entire doctrinal system that was set up through the Middle Ages to put everybody's attention on seeking forgiveness and resolve of shame through
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that false sanctuary system and casting the truth to the ground. And Gabriel says, "Hey, how long is this system going to get away with this? How long is this system going to dominate the imaginations of humans and the theology
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of humans? How long is this power going to wreak havoc on human understanding of the character of God and the gospel? Ah, I'll tell you, says the wonderful number numberer, unto 2,300 days. Then the sanctuary will be cleansed in the original language,
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rectified, restored to its rightful place in human theology and thought and and relationship with God. So the cleansing of the sanctuary is a prophecy about the breaking of the continuity of the false system that clouds people's vision to the true
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gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It breaks the back of that power and redirects people's attention to hey what about Jesus?
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Jesus is the one. Let's shift our attention away from this earthly system that has cast the truth to the ground and let's rediscover the truth of the gospel that has been blocked from human perception. So Daniel 8:14 Sean in in my opinion Jesse Anthony
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very clearly does correspond to earthly events that you can see it's called the Protestant Reformation and Adventism is latestage Protestant reformation that that begins to take form at a period of history when papal supremacy begins to wayne and be broken
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and a movement arises for the for the rectifying of the defilement of the plan of salvation and the sanctuary and the gospel that has been completely it's called the trans it's called the transgression that makes desolate it is the
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transgression it is the violation of the gospel of Christ in a colossal system of salvation by works. And the angel wants to know how long is that going to be gone on? And Jesus says, uh, well, there's going to be a stage in
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human history when that power will lose its power and the truth will be restored to human understanding and the sanctuary will be rectified and cleansed and there will be a vindication of the character of God movement that will look at Jesus
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and say Jesus is the one who rightly represents the character of God. Jesus is the one who by his sacrifice shows us that God's forgiveness is full and free. Jesus is the one who is even at the right hand of the father. He is
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the one true mediator between God and man. Not little men profiting financially sitting in booths while people come and give their coins and get forgiveness as something as a commodity that can be purchased from the church.
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That whole system is toppled by the Protestant Reformation as a continuum. And Adventism, as I see it, is a continuation of the Protestant Reformation. Simply gathering up whatever truths in the Protestant Reformation that were recovered or, you know, a wobbly, frail, fragile effort to
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do so. I mean, Adventism after all is just people. I mean, we're just people.
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We're not, there's nothing, you know, uniquely spectacular about Adventist humans versus other humans. All Adventists are are people who who who are saying yes to the collection of truths that were recovered by people making their way in to the sanctuary as a
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system of truth and saying, "Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. No, it's all about Jesus and the cross and he is the high priest and the one true mediator between God and man. Let's turn our heaven our eyes
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heavenward to Jesus as the one. I personally find that extremely compelling within the historical flow and I don't think anticipies can in any way match this this seismic like shift of human consciousness that is foretold in verses uh 8 through
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14. I I am curious then. So, okay, let's let's go fast forward to 1844, right?
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Because that's that's that's the date at which this prophecy in Adventist interpretation comes to its fulfillment.
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And it says that the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state. And in the Adventist belief explicitly, it says that Jesus moves compartments uh at that point. That this is when an investigative judgment starts. We talked about investigative judgment last last
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episode and all that, but um I I am I am really curious though because everything that I'm hearing right now seems like what you're saying points to not Jesus moving compartments, but points to like a movement starting which which I'm I I get like I it's it's
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compelling for sure, but I'm I'm curious about how that then ties into Jesus moving compartments. why it matters that it happened that day or what points to why it would have happened that day. Yeah, I'm just wondering why that day matters so much.
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Um in well, first first of all, it matters because Jesus foretold it in Daniel 8:14. He said, "Hey, this is going to this is going to go down in history.
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There's going to be a shift in human history in which there will be significant theological uh liberations that will occur and developments will occur in history. I personally think it ties into the founding of uh America as a nation. Um
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and the the the uh the elimination of monarchs and popes in um you know a human experiment in which what happens if everybody uh turns their attention away from earthly dominating systems and is self-governed?
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um by free choice. Well, what happens then is you have a sociological historical state of affairs in which the gospel can make maximum sense to people is what happens where religious liberty becomes a very significant issue um and
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you have people throwing off the domination of empires. So I that's a big thing I just said but that to me I think Daniel and Revelation Daniel and Revelation um actually reveal a convergence of events that are all tied together. And
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one of them is um the significant revolutions in human history that set people free from popes and monarchs um and and allowed for the gospel to gain footing in the world in a sociological and historical context in which people
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can think for themselves. The very fact okay I'm really curious about why that's 1844 because I I agree with those concepts.
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Yeah. But we have the Protestant Reformation happens in 15 starts in 1517 approximately. You have the uh the English the English revolution happens late 1600s. You have the um French and Russian revolutions in the 1700s. Y the Americas founded late 1700s. Uh uh
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I mean I'm I'm not exactly sure why 1844. Well, because it's all because history unfolds.
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History, okay, because of the variable of human free will and the fact that God is love, he's working real time on the stage of history through human developments.
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There's no way that this can happen in the snap of a finger. Human beings in scripture are seen not only as individuals, but as a single organism.
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In scripture there's a lot of corporate thinking and that's because human beings be beings exist as corporate as as a colossal corporate unit. So history is unfolding in such a way that generation by generation one level of thinking
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gives way to another level of thinking and that spreads sociologically psychologically and then that way of thinking gives way to another level of thinking. So what you have witnessed and I could show you this another time from scripture that the Bible sees the
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human race as undergoing a corporate maturation process. And that corporate interesting yeah that corporate maturation process in other words say it this way. The four of us do not think the way we think right now with all of our assumptions of equality
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and liberty and egalitarianism in a vacuum. The only way we think, the way that we think right now is because Moses spoke and then the prophets developed on what Moses said. And then Jesus was like the epiphany of all epiphies.
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And then Paul and the apostles said, "Oh yeah, and so if Jesus is the guy, then this is true." And then Paul says, "But it's going to be dark after this. It's going to go really dark. There will be a
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great falling away. The grievous wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. And there will be a a a history that will unfold that will be bloody and dark and it's going to get really but then it's going to get light again
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because the h you guys think about this. The human spirit, the human psychology is built for love and liberty.
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We We were made in the image of God. We cannot be dominated by power and oppression. We cannot be made slaves forever. And so what happens in history is that the human spirit which is engineered for love and liberty finally
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breaks under oppression and rises up in mass as a corporate unit in the French Revolution, the American Revolution, the Russian Revolution and many other developments in history and says no enough is enough. We are not going to be dominated by a named Louis
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the 13th in a wig in a house living off of the people's labors and we're no longer going to be subjugated under a religiously dominating system where the popes and bishops are living like like lavish kings and all of us are out here
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starving. We're done with it. And the whole thing breaks like a dam. And the breaking of that dam begins with the Protestant Reformation. But here's how human history goes naturally. The same way raising your kids goes. Two steps
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forward, one step back. Two steps forward, two steps back. Three steps forward, two So human history, we're a hard nut to crack.
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Have you met yourself? You're you're you're a piece of work. I'm a piece of work. God is struggling to God is struggling to save us while keeping our free will intact, right?
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And so forward, one step back and it develops. It Why 1844 though? Well, I'm with you. I'm with you so far.
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I'm just wondering two reasons. Number one, as I said, because that's what the prophecy said. The prophecy says this power will dominate human consciousness for a large swath of history. An angel says, "Well, how long will this go on
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and on?" And then the prophecy says, "Well, under 2,300 days, then the sanctuary is g there's going to be a shift in human history, and that shift is going to be at the end of this 2300 day per period of time." Now, that 2300
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day period of time, we have worked out as a denomination, building, by the way, on the Protestant reformers. They didn't work out the 2300 day prophecy, but they did work out the periods in history where the little horn does its dastardly
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deeds. And if they would have lived, you know, more than 80 years or however long they lived, they would have continued studying and they would would have worked out the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. Adventism does not exist in
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a vacuum. The advent when I say Adventism, by the way, I'm talking about Adventism as a theological system, not you know, the the denominational institution with an address. That's a thing that is kind of, you know, stewarding a body of knowledge that came from the
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Protestant Reformation and reached its kind of a point of development that I personally think has not yet reached its ultimate point of development. According to Bible prophecy, the whole earth is going to be illuminated with the knowledge of the beauty of the character
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of God with unprecedented clarity. And but it 1844 number one, I'm sorry for the the the the length of the answer.
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Okay, but 1844, why is it important? Well, number one, because Jesus or or the prophecy says it's going to take that long. humans are going to come to a point where a shift is going to occur. Number two, the
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reason 1844 is significant is because that is the time in history where you have the birth of a Protestant movement that answers the prophecy that answers it theologically.
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I mean, it actually happened on planet Earth that a bunch of Presbyterians and Baptists and Methodists and and Christian Connection people, most of whom were teenagers and in their 20s, they said, "What's going on here?" And they made their way according to Daniel.
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And then Revelation, Revelation says that the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple. Who?
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When? It was seen by a bunch of Bible students who now have Bibles in their hands because the back of the papacy was sufficiently broken that the thing could come off the convent wall and be translated into multiple languages so
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that the Bible is overtaking the world. Now anybody can have a Bible in their hand. Not only that, they're living in the ideal setting in this new uh this newly founded country called the United States of America where they can think
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whatever they want, believe whatever they want, do whatever they want. There's no monarch or pope that can stop them. So these are all historical developments that create the environment.
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I hope you're hearing this. The environment, the psychological, intellectual, academic environment in which a bunch of people could get together and say, "Where have we come from? And what's going on here?" Well, where have we come from? Just look at
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the dark ages and then the Protestant Reformation. Oh, wait a minute. Luther was right.
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So, we just had a little bit of a recording. We just had a little bit of a recording uh glitch, but we're back here. Uh Ty, my my my main last question because I am literally going to have to
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walk away at this point to go take care of my sick wife is um I hear what you're saying, but it sounds like you're you're mainly saying that the fulfillment of this prophecy is that it is a it is
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fulfilled in the Advent movement coming into being. You might not be saying that, but that's what it sounds like so far. If that's the case, the stated belief in in our Adventist fundamental beliefs, and I need to apologize, I
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stated it wrong. earlier. It does not say explicitly that Jesus moved compartments, but rather that Jesus began his his second phase of atoning work um that was typified by the high priest work in the in the uh most holy place.
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That's what it says. So, how does that map on to this? Because I think that's the that's the piece that I'm not hearing in all of this as of yet. Love you guys. I do got to go, but I'm
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curious to hear it later. Okay. Well, uh, I'm sorry that Jesse had to pull out, but I understand his wife is sick and he has to go pick up the children. Um, but he'll loop back and he'll hear the answer to the question,
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or rather I should say, my response to to his question. it uh it may or may not uh be uh satisfying or robust enough in the time that we have. But I do believe that there is a vital connection between
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uh the events that are transpiring on earth and the events that are transpiring in heaven. Um according to the gospel uh Jesus died on earth but then he resurrected on earth and he ascended to the right hand of the father in
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heaven and that he is there according to the apostle Paul and the book of Hebrews uh our heavenly high priest uh and he is the one true mediator between God and man and that the development of the uh events real time on the surface
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of the earth in human history with the with the rise of the Protestant Protestant Reformation and the um the part of that Protestant Reformation that comes straight up to the movements in America where uh Bible students all of
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whom were you know from Protestant denominations got together and they made a series of theological discoveries that shifted their attention to Jesus in the high priestly role that he occupies as our mediator administering to us the benefits of his atoning sacrifice at
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Calvary. There's a connection. And as far as why um the shift from holy place to most holy place, well, that's the model that God gave us in the sanctuary.
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The sanctuary has a courtyard. It has a holy place. It has a most holy place.
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It's symbolic and it's prophetic of the developments in history. According to the prophecy of Daniel, there will come a time in history where earthly events will correspond to heavenly event that constitute the fulfillment of Yam Kipper or the cleansing of the sanctuary on the
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day of atonement that pertained to the most holy place. On that one day of the Hebrew year, judgment and atonement and the cleansing will would occur. And Daniel says that that the cleansing of the sanctuary will happen at the end of the 2300 day
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prophecy, which means according to Daniel's prophecy and according to Revelation that there will be number one a seismic shift in human consciousness regarding the character of God as truth is recovered gradually through history and and and a movement arises on the
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stage of history that points people to the high priestly ministry of Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary where he is finishing up the esqueological judgment that all Protestants believe in in principle according to the the uh you know the creeds the earliest creeds like
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the apostolic creed and um Nika all Protestants you know get together and say at the conclusion of the creed that there will come uh that that he will come again to judge the living and the dead. So there's an So all Protestants
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believe in an esqueological judgment. The only difference with Adventism is Adventism says we believe that Daniel 78 and 9 foretell the period of human history when that es esqueological judgment unfolds and it unfolds at the tail end of human
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history with a recovery of truth and a refocus on the gospel and the high priestly ministry of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. To me, it it it's just a beautiful recovery of the gospel um that that that that we have the
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privilege of being a part of and anybody has the privilege of being a part of if they want to. Ty, you're saying essentially that in this final piece, the Adventist claim interpretation is in essence, it's pushing back a little bit
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on the interpretation of other other Christian denominations when they say this this esqueological judgment that will happen one day will be in their view a moment or like a day like right like the day of the Lord. And what
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you're saying is the Adventist perspective pushes back and says no, it's actually a time period.
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Yes. And part of that time period is the restoring of the gospel is is is part of God's judgment.
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Yeah. We're we're free will Protestants. We're Arminian Protestants. And so we don't believe that judgment can occur as a second of time that doesn't take human reasoning and human free will online. We believe that the judgment is a process by which the character of God
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is magnified in human understanding and people worship God um out of love and free will not because they are dominated by human systems that require it. And so, so yeah, for Adventist thinking, the judgment corresponds to the development
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of events in human history that vindicate the beauty of God's character in people's thinking by focusing everybody on Jesus. I just want to clarify, we don't vindicate the character of God. Jesus vindicated, period, end of subject, the character of
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God. And the proclamation of the gospel magnifies what happened in Jesus so that people can turn to him with their whole heart without the emotional coercion and oppression of salvation by work systems.
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So yeah, it's a period of time. It, you know, it's it's it's called the day of judgment. It's called the hour of his judgment. It's it's the judgment segment of human history.
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Wow. Wow. Yeah. It's Yeah. This is this is actually for me just coming from a position where I I do, you know, I've always seen like the best fit being the 2300 days. I see the the connections and
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the importance of Jesus in the midst of that prophecy and seeing the connection to Adventism. I think it's been helpful, Ty, for you to go, especially through Daniel 8 with me kind of seeing the progression and seeing why Antiochus
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would be almost a comically insignificant event for Jesus and Gabriel to be having this whole discussion over like it feels like this crescendo and it's like the question would be like why would why would um God go to the
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trouble of all this prophecy for that event when there's similar events? Yeah. bad events that happen and bad leaders through history but are not acknowledged like what what makes Anticus so special.
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It seems to be not a significant enough um connection where people roam seems to fit the significance of the occasion of worldwide oppression.
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Exactly. Because Greece and because the ones that come before it were worldwide oppressors. They they were they were significant in their time and space and each one builds off the other. So you going through that process alongside the other checklist items in
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Daniel 7 and 8 for the characterization of this little horn. Uh it seems to me to be a very, you know, ironclad uh defense for paple Rome being both Daniel chapter 7 and 8. Um so I'm curious. I know that Jesse had to
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leave. I know that we'll uh continue to have some discussions. So we'll be we'll be talking with you. Obviously, we love having this conversation, this wrestling, and um we'll probably even have a little moment uh at the end of
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this episode where we'll we'll just kind of do a debrief and maybe in between that time, we'll have some discussions with you with you, Tai, just to make sure we're we're we're all on the same page of where we ended uh with everything. So,
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for those listening, I know it's a little disjointed, but there's so many good pieces in uh this discussion we've had that uh Ty, thank you for being along this journey with us as we wrestle with this because it's a challenge. It's it's
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tough. You know, we're coming from different angles of what we understood to be the truth or what we didn't, you know, what we thought the sanctuary message was and what it wasn't. And and so I I think we're inviting people
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that are listening along for that journey to ask those hard questions and to start, you know, digging into, you know, line by line these these things you've put out um by Daniel, you know, 7 8 and 9. And uh it's been for me it's
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been a blessing to like go through that and just see even more clearly like God's method and the way that he's let this unfold.
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Um so I just appreciate that. Thank you for for Yeah. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's been great. I've enjoyed it thoroughly.
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Yes. I want to just uh bookend that by saying essentially Tai what you presented to us is this idea and this was actually what was presented by Dr. Davidson in seminary. What I which is why I found so
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compelling was that God foresaw that the gospel itself would be subverted and co-opted by the church itself. And because he he foresaw that, he said this is only going to happen for a certain amount of time and after that
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certain amount of time it will be recovered by a movement of of well by his revelation to a movement of people that includes Adventists but isn't limited to Adventists. That there would be a reclaiming of who God really is
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of the gospel. And that that's that's really the this core message that the church has co-opted the gospel and then we are part of a a group of people God has called to bring people and point people back to reclaim
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the gospel to bring people back and point people back to Christ which I think is is really compelling and anybody anybody can be a part of it because it's more of a movement that is described not an institution. Um, I just
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want to emphasize that there's no denominational um, high ground or arrogance in I mean, I'm really happy to be a Seventh Day Adventist and I love being a Seventh Day Adventist, but I would be perfectly happy for I mean, Adventism exists
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not to be a denomination. Adventism exists to basically say, "Hey everybody, um, here are some things that have been lost sight of. Uh, take a look.
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It's a movement that anybody can be a part of and and so yeah, I wasn't raised in it. I am a convert to Adventism because it it it it makes sense to to me.
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Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Yeah. It's been really powerful. We're we're excited to because we've had so many good conversations with people.
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We're we're expecting this to lead to some more conversation as well. on and so we've just seen so many good things happen from this this uh trilogy that we've done together and uh and and Ty, we we appreciate it,
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man. Really genuinely like it's it's there's there's wrestling and and struggle through it, but it's also led us to this point in moment where we're we're continuing to to see God's light being brought forth. So, thank you for being on that journey with us and
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and continue to go there. And again, they can find you on lightbears. If anyone wants to see a full, you know, sanctuary explanation by him and David Ashri uh through lightbears, they go through a series of 10 parts on
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lightbears. You can go to their YouTube channel. Uh I've been blessed by that. My Bible study group at church is going through it right now. We've just gotten through two parts of it. And it's been it's been a great conversation starter
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for for my church as well. So, appreciate what you guys are doing over there. And uh we just love seeing seeing what's next for you guys. So yeah, thanks again.
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Yeah, thanks guys. God bless. Hey friends, you've just been listening to another episode of Seeking What They Sought. I'm one of your hosts, Anthony Lighter, and on behalf of all the guys, we just want to say a big thank you to
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all of you who have come alongside us in our journey to have honest conversations about Adventism. We appreciate each one of you. As usual, if you haven't already, give us a follow on Instagram.
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It is kind of like our home base social media wise and if you'd like to stay up to date on the episodes that we're posting or just different things that we're doing, you can follow us there.
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helping us make quality content. So, to each one of you, a big thank you. And if you'd like to follow us on Patreon, you can. There's a link in our Instagram bio if you'd like to support us. Thank you
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Um but you know, be honest, that really helps us uh just in the algorithm, the way that you know, these things work these days. So, we really really appreciate it. All right, I think that's it for now, friends. So, we will see you
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next time on Seeking What They Saw.
Topics:Sanctuary DoctrineDaniel 7Daniel 8Daniel 91844 prophecyAdventism2300 daysLittle hornHistoricismDivine judgment
