Speaker A
Heat. Heat. [music] [music] Our [music] [music] [music] audience is largely wannabe entrepreneurs in India. And I feel like all of us have so much to learn from you because you've done it so many times over in so many different domains.
Elon Musk discusses the future of social media, AI, and collective consciousness in a candid conversation with Nikhil Kamath.
Key Takeaways
- X aims to be a balanced, centrist platform adhering strictly to laws without political bias.
- Future communication will heavily rely on AI-driven real-time video and voice interactions.
- Meaningful, substance-rich content is preferable to dopamine-driven, addictive video streams.
- Automatic translation is key to building a global collective consciousness.
- Social media should foster understanding and connection rather than polarization.
Summary
- Elon Musk shares insights on the evolution of social media, emphasizing the role of text, video, and AI-driven real-time video interaction.
- He explains his vision for X (formerly Twitter) as a global town square fostering balanced and centrist discourse without political bias.
- Musk highlights the importance of automatic translation to create a collective consciousness across language barriers.
- He critiques dopamine-driven video content and stresses the value of meaningful communication over addictive entertainment.
- The conversation touches on social media’s influence on society and the need for platforms that increase understanding rather than polarization.
- Musk reflects on his acquisition of Twitter and his efforts to restore balance and adherence to legal frameworks.
- The discussion includes Musk’s philosophical views on the meaning of life and humanity’s quest to understand the universe.
- Nikhil Kamath steers the conversation towards entrepreneurship and learning from Musk’s diverse experiences.
- Musk comments on the changing media consumption habits of younger audiences and the potential for new social media models.
- The video blends technical insights with personal anecdotes and broader societal reflections.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Audience Context
- 06:14Political Balance and Moderation on X
- 13:15Social Media Trends and Future Models
- 24:14Technology Insights: Low Earth Orbit Satellites
- 30:01Societal Changes and Urban Living
- 35:10Personal Anecdotes and Humor
- 42:20Philosophical Reflections on Life and AI
- 51:21Closing Thoughts and Key Messages
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
[music] Yeah. Uh, so we will speak to them today and I will try and center all my questions in that direction so they can take advantage of this conversation and maybe start [music] take a chance and build something.
Speaker A
You want a coffee? Um, sure. Why not? Okay. Okay. Are we going to be talking for a while? [laughter] I hope we are.
Speaker A
Okay. Good. Sure. Um, Mna, may I trouble you for a coffee? Can we get another coffee?
Speaker A
Anything? Uh, cappuccino, I guess. All right. Are you a coffee drinker, El? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I copy once usually in the mornings, you know.
Speaker A
Okay. [laughter] One a day kind of thing. Yeah, pretty much. You want to wait for it?
Speaker A
No, I'm I'm I'm good. [laughter] The first thing I must say is you're a lot bigger and bulkier, muscular than I would have thought you are.
Speaker A
Oh. Oh, stop. You must make me blush. [laughter] Really? Seriously? Yeah. I mean, look on the internet. I'm small, you know. [laughter] Yeah. Essentially, what percentage of internet Yeah. is spent on Twitter? Is there a number to it on X?
Speaker A
Well, so we have like about 600 million monthly users. Um, well, although it can spike up if there's some major event in the world, it can get up to I don't know 800 million or or or a billion.
Speaker A
Um, if there's some major event in the world. So, uh, so so that there's I don't know 250, 300 million per week type of thing. It's a pretty decent number. It tends to be um readers, you know, people that read
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words. [laughter] Um, you know, so do you think that'll change? Um, yeah, I mean there's uh there's certainly a lot of video on on um on the X system, but uh at this point increasing amounts of video, but I
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think where where uh the X network is strongest is among people who who think who think a lot and read a lot, you know. So it's that's where it's going to be strongest because we have words [laughter] and and you know so um am among readers
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writers and thinkers I think X is number one in the world as far as social media goes the form factor if you had to wager a guess for tomorrow how much is text how much is video I've heard you speak about maybe voice
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and hearing being the next form of communication with AI, what happens to X in its true form? How does it evolve?
Speaker A
Yeah. So, I I do think most interaction is going to be video in the future. Uh, most interaction is going to be uh real-time video with AI. So, real-time video comprehension, real-time video generation. Um that's going to be most
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of the load. And that's how it is for most of the internet right now. It's um most of the internet is video. Um text is a pretty small percentage but the the text tends to be higher value generally
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or more it's more densely compressed information like um yeah so but if you say like what is the most amount of bits generated and compute spent it's certainly going to be video so I used to be a shareholder of X a
Speaker A
very small one okay and I got paid when you bought it when you bought Twitter and you made it U happy decision. Glad you did it.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. I think it was important. Um, you know, I felt like uh Twitter was heading in or had had gone in a direction that had sort of a more of a negative influence on the world. Um you
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know, it was it was I mean, of course, this depends on one's perspective. Some people will say, well, actually, they liked the way it was and now they don't like it. Um but the I think the fundamental thing was that um Twitter
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was amplifying I would say a fairly pretty far left by most people's standards in the world's ideology because of where it was based in San Francisco. So and and they actually suspended a lot of people on the right. Uh um so
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uh so from their perspective even someone in the center would be would be far right. If you're if you're far left anyone in the center is far right because you're you it's just a political on the political spectrum they're um
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they're just as far left as you get in the United States and in San Francisco.
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So what I've tried to do is just restore it to be balanced and and uh centrist.
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So there haven't been any left-wing voices that have been suspended or you know banned or uh deamplified or anything like that. Now some of them have chosen to just go go somewhere else. Um but uh but at this point it is
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the the the operating principle of the of the X system is to adhere to any country's laws but not to put our thumb on the scale beyond the laws of a country.
Speaker A
When I think of social media, um, thank you. When I think of social media, Elon, I feel like even data suggests that the current incumbents seem to be losing traction amongst the youngest of audience.
Speaker A
Yeah. Even platforms like Instagram, uh, I mean, they're not exactly like Twitter, but platforms across the board. If one had to rework social media and build something bottom up, what do you think could work for the world of tomorrow?
Speaker A
Well, I mean, I I don't think that much about um about social media to be frank. I mean, it's I can mostly just want to have have something where there's um a in the case of of X, kind of a global
Speaker A
town square, uh where where people can say what they want to say uh with words, pictures, video um where there's a secure messaging system. We've recently added the ability to to do audio and video calls. Um, so you're really trying to
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bring the the the world the world together into um a a collective consciousness and um that that's I guess different from just saying like what is the most dopamine generating video stream that one could make? Um which uh you know you I think
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can be a little bit of brain rot frankly. um you know, if if you're just watching videos that just cause dopamine hits one after another, um but lack substance, then I think those those are not great that that's not a great way to
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spend time. Um but I I do think that's actually what a lot of people are going to want to watch. Um, so if you say like total internet usage, it's going to probably be optimizing for, you know, neur neurotransmitter generation, like
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it it there's somebody getting like a a kick out of it, right? But it's it's it's it becomes like a drug type of thing. So, um, but I'm not really after my goal is not to do that. I I guess I
Speaker A
could do that if I if I wanted to, but um uh that's I I just want to really have um a a global platform that brings together like like I said like it's come becomes as close to sort of a collective
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consciousness uh of humanity as possible. Um and um you know like and one of the things that we've introduced uh for example is automatic translation. So um so because I think it would be great to bring together uh what what people say in many
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different languages um and but automatically translated for the recipient. So you have the collective consciousness not not just of of say people in a particular language group but you have um the thoughts of of people in you know
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every language group. And why is that important collective consciousness to have one platform? I I guess uh yeah why is that important? Um I I guess it's you could also say like like why uh you know if you consider humans like
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humans are composed of around 30 to 40 trillion cells um and you know there's trillions of synap synapses in your in your mind Um but but but there's there's no the why a bit. I mean I guess it's just so we can
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increase our understanding our our understand increase our understanding of the the universe. Um, so I I guess I like I had this sort of question about what's the meaning of life, you know, um like why why is anything important? Um
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um you know why why why are we here? Um what's the origin of the universe? Where what is the end? Um What are the questions that we don't even know to ask? Um, and probably the questions we don't even
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know to ask are the most important ones. Um,
Speaker A
and where did you get when you asked what is the point of life? Yeah. So I I came to the conclusion that um which is somewhat in the Douglas Adams Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy school of thought which is
Speaker A
what he do. Yeah. He you know he sort of Hug's Guide to the Galaxy is like a book on philosophy disguised as humor.
Speaker A
Yeah. And the that's where you know Earth turns out to be this computer to understand to get to figure out the answer of the meaning of life and it comes up with the answer 42 and but then it's like what the heck
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does 42 mean? Um, and it turns out, well, actually the hard part is the question, not the answer. And for that, you need a much bigger computer than Earth. That's so basically what Douglas Adams was saying is that we we
Speaker A
actually don't know how to frame the questions properly. Um, and um, and so, so I think by expanding the scope and scale of consciousness, we can better under understand what questions to ask about the answer that is the universe.
Speaker A
Do you believe the collective consciousness of society? You know when when I I was watching this movie recently called the gladiator Russell Crowe. Have you seen it?
Speaker A
Yeah. In Gladiator in Rome when people are fighting Yeah. and the crowd is cheering when people kill each other.
Speaker A
Uh the collective is very much like the mob. It doesn't have nuance in its opinion per se.
Speaker A
Well, I that's a particular kind of mob. I mean, the sort of going there to see people kill each other, you know.
Speaker A
Do you suspect the society we live in today is very different? Well, we don't we don't generally uh at this point we don't, you know, go watch people kill each other. Uh maybe [laughter] some kind of euphemism of that
Speaker A
sports, I suppose. Uh so people do sports without um where teams attempt to defeat each other but minus the death right.
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Um so just going back to the uh consideration of a human we all started out as one cell but now we are over 30 trillion cells. Mhm.
Speaker A
Um and uh but I think most people like feel like they're one one body like you know usually your right hand's not fighting your left hand type of thing you know to to sort of cooperate. Um your mind is
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uh you know just a vast number of neurons but but most of the time it doesn't feel like there's you know a trillion voices in your brain. Hopefully not. [laughter] Um so so there there's there's clearly more that happens when you have
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trillions of cells uh working as a cellular collective than say one cell or um a a small you know small multisellular creature. There's there's clearly some something different that happens like you can't talk to a bacteria you know.
Speaker A
Yeah. It's very silent. um they just sort of wiggle around and you know from their perspective I don't know I sort of what is what is life like from the perspective of a sing of of an amoeba you know um but I know you can't
Speaker A
talk to amoeba like they don't talk whack um but you can talk to humans so there's just something obviously qualitatively fundamentally different um for humans once you have a large number of cells and you know sufficiently large brain type of thing. There's you can now
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talk to humans and they they and they can say things, they can produce things. Um but uh bacteria are not going to produce a spaceship for example. Um but humans can.
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So I think there's something qualitatively different that also happens when there's a collection of humans. In fact, in fact, it's safe to say that a single human cannot make a spaceship. I could not make a spaceship by myself. But but uh with a collection
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of humans uh we can make spaceships. So there's there's something obviously qualitatively different um about a collection of humans. In fact, it would be impossible for me to learn all of the areas of expertise. There wouldn't be enough time in one lifetime
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to even learn all the things before I was dead. So um so you really fundamentally have to have a collection of humans to make a rocket.
Speaker A
Um then I think there probably some other scaling qualitative scaling things that happen when you have groups of humans and then if the quality of the interaction or the quality of the information flow um is the the better it is the more the
Speaker A
human collective will achieve. Um, and I'm I like said I'm just curious about the nature of the universe and and I think if we it's safe to say like if if we increase the scope and scale of consciousness, we're much more likely to
Speaker A
understand the nature of the universe than if we reduce it. Is that a bit like spirituality? A lot of people talk to me about spirituality, right?
Speaker A
I still don't know what it actually means. Like I keep asking them, what do you mean?
Speaker A
What do you mean? [laughter] Uh yeah, I mean a lot of people have spiritual feelings, right?
Speaker A
Um and um and I wouldn't try to deny that those spiritual spiritual feelings are real to them. Um but it's it's uh it doesn't entirely translate. I can't just because somebody else has a spiritual feeling doesn't mean that I
Speaker A
would have that spiritual feeling. Um so um you know I I tend to be kind of physics pulled which is like if something has predictive value then I you know I'll pay more attention to it than if it doesn't have predictive value
Speaker A
right u so you know physics I would say is the study of that which has predictive value uh I think it's pretty good definition um so my primary job elon is a stock broker and stock investor Okay.
Speaker A
There is no predictive value. Nobody knows what will happen tomorrow. Well, but I think you can generally say, you know, um that um if if if it's long-term for a company, then you can say like, well, does that
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is that do you like the products or services of that company? And is it likely to do you like the the product roadmap?
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like it seems like they they make great products and they're likely to make great products in the future. If that's the case, then I would say that's probably a good company to invest in.
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Um, and I think you also want to believe in the the team. So, if you think, well, that's a talented and hardworking team.
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They make good products today. They seem to be still motivated to make things in the future, then I'd say that's that's a good company to invest in.
Speaker A
Um, fair point. Yeah. And now that that that that won't solve for the daily fluctuations which happen and sometimes are pretty extreme. Uh but over time it would that that is the the right way to invest in stocks because a company is just a group
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of people assembled to create products and services. So you have to say what are how good are those products and services? Are they likely to continue to improve in the future? If so, then you should buy the stock of that company and
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and then don't worry too much about the daily fluctuations, right? What's got you most excited now, Elon, in terms of all that you're building?
Speaker A
You're doing so much. So, let me just preface and contextualize who is watching this. Uh, our audience is largely wannabe entrepreneurs in India.
Speaker A
Okay. uh really ambitious, really hungry, want to take the risk and build something and I feel like all of us have so much to learn from you because you've done it so many times over in so many different
Speaker A
domains. Yeah. Uh so we will speak to them today and I will try and center all my questions in that direction so they can take advantage of this conversation and maybe start take a chance and build something.
Speaker A
Okay. Sure. Um yeah, I guess the most important thing to do is just make useful products and services. Um yeah. Um which one of all that all the products and services that you're building has got you most excited today?
Speaker A
Well, I I think that there's increasingly a a convergence actually between SpaceX and Tesla and XAI um in that if the future is um solar powered AI satellites, which it pretty much needs to be in order to um in in
Speaker A
order to harness a non-trivial amount of the energy of the sun, you have to move to solar powered AI satellites in deep space. um which somewhat is a confluence of Tesla expertise and SpaceX expertise um and XAI on the the AI front. So
Speaker A
it does feel like over time there's somewhat of a convergence there. Um but all the companies are doing doing great things. Um very proud of the teams. They do great work. Um so you know we're making great progress with Tesla on the
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autonomous driving. I don't know if you've tried the self-driving. Mhm. Have you tried it?
Speaker A
I've tried it in the Whimo, not in the Tesla. Yeah, it's worth [laughter] uh We actually have it here in in Austin, so you can I'd love to try it.
Speaker A
You can you can literally just download Tesla app. Yeah. And I and I think I think it's open to to any to anyone. Definitely try it out.
Speaker A
I mean, you know, let me know how it goes. Um but uh you know we've made a lot of progress with electric vehicles with uh battery packs and solar and but and very much so with self-driving. So basically
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real world AI um Tesla is the world leader in real world AI I would say. So, um, and then we're going to be making this robot Optimus, which is, you know, starting production hopefully some next year, um, at scale. Um, and I think
Speaker A
that's going to be pretty cool. That'll be like I think everyone's going to want their own personal C3PO R2-D2, you know, helper help a robot. Like, it would be pretty cool. Um and then SpaceX is doing great work with the Starlink
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program, you know, providing uh lowcost, reliable uh internet throughout the world. Hopefully India. So [laughter] we'd love to be operating in India. That would be great. We're operating in 150 different countries now with Starlink.
Speaker A
Can you give me a bit about Starlink and how the tech works cuz somebody I was speaking to uh I don't know if you know this company called meter out of San Francisco. uh they're trying to replace network
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engineers but I know it now. Um so he was telling me about how in densely populated areas, Starlink works differently than it might be in a place with not as many people. Can you explain how it works?
Speaker A
Yeah, so Starink um there's several thousand satellites in low Earth orbit and they're moving around 25 times the speed of sound um in these, you know, they're zipping around the Earth basically. And um they're uh they're at an altitude of about 550 km.
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Mhm. Um which is called generally low earth orbit. Um because they're they're at low earth orbit, they're um the latency is is low like the the distance because the distance is is not that far compared to a geostationary satellite uh 36,000 km.
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Um so you've you've got um thousands of satellites providing uh low latency high-speed internet throughout the world and um and they are interconnected as well.
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So there's there are laser laser links between the satellites. So it forms sort of a a laser mesh so that the if if let's say uh fi let's say if cables are damaged or cut like fiber cables the
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satellites can communicate between each other um and provide connectivity uh even if uh there's there's a uh the cables are cut so for example when the red sea cables were cut uh I think a few months ago the satellite the the stinking satellite
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network continued to function without a hitchh so it's it's particularly helpful for disaster areas. So, but if an area has been hit with uh some kind of natural disaster, floods or fires or earthquakes, that that tends to damage
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the the ground infrastructure. Uh but the Starink satellites still work. So, um and generally when whenever there's some sort of natural disaster somewhere, we we always provide people with free Starlink uh internet connectivity. You know, we don't want to charge we don't
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take advantage of a a tragic situation. So, um, so always, you know, if there's natural disasters, we like, okay, it's it's free during the natural disaster.
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You know, we we don't want to say like, um, you know, put a pay wall up while somebody's trying to get help. That would be wrong. Um, so so that's it's it's it's a very robust system. It's it's complimentary to ground systems
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because uh the satellite beams um work best in uh sparsely populated areas. Um but because you you've got a you've got a satellite beam, it's a pretty big beam. So you have a and you have a fixed number of users per beam. So, um, it
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tends to be very complimentary to the groundbased cellular systems because those are those are very good in cities because you've got these cell towers that are, you know, only a kilometer apart type of thing.
Speaker A
But, uh, but but but cell towers tend to be inefficient in the countryside. So in in uh rural rural areas is where you tend to have the worst internet because uh it's very very expensive and difficult to lay to do all these do all the fiber
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optic cables uh or to have um high bandwidth cellular towers. So Starlink is very complimentary to the existing telecom companies. Um it it basically tends to serve the serve the least served which I think is is good. Um
Speaker A
that's um will that change tomorrow? Like today as you explained the the beam is quite broad and it can't work in a densely populated area with high buildings maybe.
Speaker A
But can that change and tomorrow it becomes really efficient in a densely populated city where it is competitive with the local network providers?
Speaker A
It's it's unfortunately so the physics don't allow for that. So we're too far away. Um so at 550 km and even if we try to reduce it which about as low as we can go is about 350 km
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still very far away you you you've just you can think of like a like a flashlight which is it's you know that flashlight's got a cone and and and that that cone is is coming at you know today
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550 km in the future we try to get down to 350 km but we can't beat something that's 1 kilometer away which the cell tower uh physics is not on our side here, right? So it's not it's not physically
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possible for us for stalling to serve uh densely populated cities like you can serve a little bit maybe 1% of the population and sometimes people get you know even in in crowded cities there might be you know no fiber link up their
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road like sometimes somebody's on a culde-sac or something or in a a place in in cities there are sometimes underserved areas for random reasons and so can serve like said maybe 1% or 2% of of of a densely populated city. Um, but
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it can be much more effective in like I said in rural areas where the internet connection is much worse and often people either have sometimes no access to internet or it's extremely expensive or the quality is not very good.
Speaker A
So if I were to ask you to wager a guess Elon, do you think India will go down the path of urbanization like China did with more people moving in from rural economies to urban centers? Um or do you
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think we I suppose some some amount of that has happened, right? Um I mean I'm actually I I'm curious to sort of ask you some questions as well. Is because of course isn't isn't that the trend or is it not
Speaker A
the trend in India? It is the trend largely. I think a little bit changed during co when a lot of urbanization slowed down and that was not organic. It was very artificially artificially manifested.
Speaker A
Right? But one does question that with AI if productivity were to go up and I heard you speak about UHI instead of UBI.
Speaker A
Yeah. Uh I think I think it will be universal high income. In a world like that, I wonder if more people want to live in cities which are always going to be more polluted and not offer the quality of lifestyle
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that a rural environment might. Well, I guess it's up to some people want to be around a lot of people and some people don't. You know, it's going to be a maybe a matter of personal choice. But I think in the future it
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won't be I I think it won't be the case that you have to be in a city for a job.
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Um because I I think I I my prediction is in the future working will be optional, right?
Speaker A
We seem to be moving from not in India but in in some parts of the west from 6 days to 5 days to 4 days to three.
Speaker A
Uh not me. [laughter] I think the Europeans. Yeah. Yeah. Uh [laughter] um yeah. Yeah. There's I mean I I think if you're trying to make a startup succeed or you're trying to make a company do very difficult things then
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you you you definitely need to put in serious hours. I think that's right. That's how it goes.
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And if we were to move from 5 to 4 to 3 days, how do you think society changes when people have to work half the week?
Speaker A
What do they do with the other half? Well, I I think it'll actually be that people don't have to work at all in the in the um and it may not be that far in the future. Maybe only I don't know 10 I
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say less than 20 years. In less my prediction is less than in less than 20 years working will be optional. working at all will be optional like a hobby pretty much and that would be because of increased productivity meaning people do not have
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to work they don't have to I mean look this obviously people can play this back in 20 years and say look Elon made this ridiculous pred prediction and it's not true but I think it will turn out to be
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true that in less than 20 years maybe even as little as I don't know 10 or 15 years um the advancements in AI and robotics will bring us to the point where working is optional um in the same way that like say you
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could you can grow your own vegetables in your garden or you could go to the store and buy vegetables you know it's much harder to grow your own vegetables But but you know some people like to grow their vegetables which is fine you
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know um but it it'll be optional in that way is my prediction. If one were to argue that humans are innately competitive and everything is relative from the time of hunters.
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Somebody wanted to be the alpha hunter or the biggest farmer. If everybody gets a universal high income and everybody has enough what do you compete for? Uh, it would be relative, right? Like if we all had enough, enough is not enough.
Speaker A
Um, yeah. I I guess I I I'm not exactly sure. Um, cuz we're we're really headed into the singularity as it's called, which you know, they refer to AI sometimes as the kind of like a black hole, like a
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singularity. You don't know what happens after the event horizon. It doesn't mean that something bad happens. It just means you don't know what happens. Um, so like I'm I'm confident that if AI and robotics continue to advance, which they
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are advancing very rapidly, like I said, working will be optional. Um, and people will have any goods and services that they want.
Speaker A
Um, if you if you can think of it, you can have it type of thing. Um and but then at a certain point AI will actually saturate on anything humans can think of and then at at that point it it becomes
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a situation where AI is doing things for AI and robotics are doing things for AI and robotics because they've run out of things to do to make the humans happy you know because there's a limit you know they say like there's only people
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can only eat so much food or you know if but I it's going to be I think if you can think of it you can have it will be the future you know the Austrian school of economics if you go back in time they
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were the digression from Adam Smith they talk about the marginal utility of everything having one of something has value having two of the same thing has lesser value and having 10 of the same thing has no value yes
Speaker A
so if we could have everything we wanted 10 marshmallows. I mean, who wants that?
Speaker A
[laughter] One's one's plenty. It's like the marshmallow taste. You're like, you can have two marshmallows later or one marshmallow now. And I'm like, I'll have one marshmallow. I don't want two marshmallows.
Speaker A
That's interesting. [laughter] What would you pick? Well, I I don't One marshmallow is enough. I always question marshmallows as being like not the most, you know, the best candy, you know?
Speaker A
Yeah. [laughter] Well, I don't yearn for marshmallows. I think you're the best. Who does? [laughter] You're the best testament to the marshmallow experiment. I think I suppose so. Well, I mean, like delayed gratification essentially.
Speaker A
Yeah. You were able to delay it more than most. You know, I have a tattoo which says delay gratification. [laughter] Yeah. Wow. Okay. What's this? Okay.
Speaker A
You're really taking the marshmallow test. I feel like I can't remember when I'm trading or when I'm buying into delay gratification. Yeah. Yeah, it helps.
Speaker A
Wow. Okay, that's a good It's pointing at me, so it reminds me of [laughter] Okay. Well, that's it's good advice. I mean, you can't miss it.
Speaker A
If you could get [laughter] If you could get a tattoo, what would you get?
Speaker A
I guess maybe my kids' names or something, right? Why do you like the letter X as much as you do?
Speaker A
Well, [laughter] I mean, yeah, it's a good question. Honestly, sometimes I wonder what what's wrong with me. Um [laughter] um so um I mean it started off with where I think so way back in ancient times in 99
Speaker A
[laughter] the pre the pre-Cambian era when there were only sponges. Um the [laughter] I I there were only three onelet domain names um and I think it was XQ and Z and uh and I was like okay I want to have create this
Speaker A
place where it's the um the financial crossroads or like the the financial exchange you know um um it's essentially solving money from an information theory standpoint where the current banking system is is a large number of uh heterogeneous databases
Speaker A
with batch processing that uh are not secure. Um, and if we could have a a a sort of a single database that was real time and uh secure, that would be more efficient from a monetary from an information theory standpoint than, you
Speaker A
know, a large number of heterogeneous databases that batch process very slowly and securely. Um, so, um, so that that was that was sort of X.com way back in the day, which kind of, um, became PayPal. Um, and then um,
Speaker A
and was acquired by eBay. And then eBay, someone reached out from eBay and said, "Hey, do you want to buy the domain name back?" And I was like, "Sure." You know, and so I had the domain name for quite a
Speaker A
while. Um and then uh and then yes then I was like well maybe this may maybe this acquiring Twitter would also be an opportunity to revisit the original plan of of X.com which is to create this um this like clearing house of
Speaker A
of financial transactions like like basically to create a more efficient datab money database is a way to think about it is um like like people like money is really a an information system for labor allocation like people think
Speaker A
sometimes think money is power in and of itself but it it doesn't it doesn't really it's if there's no labor to allocate it it's meaningless. So if you were to be on a desert island with a trillion you know dollars or whatever
Speaker A
doesn't matter. Oh yeah. Why speculate when you can be real? [laughter] I just hope I don't end up on a desert island, you know, it's not going to be very useful to me. Um, but but it illustrates my point that if [laughter]
Speaker A
if you're if you're stranded on a on a on a desert island with a trillion dollars, it's not useful because there's no there's no labor to allocate. You just allocate yourself. So um so so it's so anyway so it's so this
Speaker A
longwinded way of saying that it's uh it it's just really like I'm I'm just kind of slowly building revisiting this idea that I had 25 years ago to create a more efficient um money database. Um, and and if that's successful, people
Speaker A
will use it. If it's not successful, they won't use it. Um, you know, and and and then I also like the idea of like sort of having a unified app or or or website or whatever where you can do like it can you can do
Speaker A
anything you want there. Um, so you know, sort of China has this with WeChat somewhat, you know, where you can you you can exchange information, you can publish information, you can exchange money, uh, you can um, you know, you sort of people kind of live
Speaker A
their life on WeChat in in China. It's and it's it's it's quite useful, but there's no u there's no real WeChat outside of China. Um, so it's like it's kind of WeChat++ I'd say is is the idea for for X.
Speaker A
Anyway, so then, uh, Space Exploration Technologies is the full name of the company, but I was like, that's too much. That's a mouthful. So I was like, we'll just call it SpaceX, like FedEx for space.
Speaker A
Um, it just hasn't happens to have X in the, you know, cuz exploration has an X, but you know, and I was like, well, I like the idea of capitalizing the X just artistically. So, um, so then, uh,
Speaker A
that's why it's SpaceX. But, uh, and then, um, what else have we got? We got a kid.
Speaker A
Uh, he's called X2. Um, but that's his mother is the one that named him X.
Speaker A
[laughter] And I said, you know, people are really going to think I've got a thing about X if we name our kid X2, you know, and and I I said to her, like, look, I do have X.com, you know. [laughter]
Speaker A
So, people are going to really think I've got a somewhat of a fetish for this letter. Um, but she's she said, "No, I she likes X and she wants to call him X." I'm like, "Okay." Is this a new thing or have you had it
Speaker A
growing up? No, [laughter] I'm saying it's it's somewhat of a co coincidence, you know.
Speaker A
Um, like not everything's called X. I mean, Tesla's there's no X's in Tesla, you know.
Speaker A
Um, what do you think money will be in the future Elon? I I I think I think long term I think money disappears as a concept.
Speaker A
Honestly, it's it's kind of strange, but um in in a future where anyone can have anything, uh I think you no longer need money as a database for labor allocation.
Speaker A
Um if if there's if AI if AI and robotics are big enough to satisfy all human needs then then money is no longer it's it's relevance declines dramatically. It's I'm not sure we will have it. So you the best sort of uh imagining of
Speaker A
this future that I've read is uh from Ian Banks the culture books. So, I recommend people read the culture books.
Speaker A
You in the sort of far future of the culture books, there's they don't have money either. Um, and everyone can pretty much have whatever they want. So, there there there are still some fundamental currencies, if you will, that are
Speaker A
physics- based. So, energy is energy is the real is the true currency. This is why I said Bitcoin is based on energy.
Speaker A
You you can't legislate energy. You can't just, you know, pass a law and suddenly have a lot of energy. Um you it's very difficult to to to generate energy or especially to harness energy in a in a useful way to do useful
Speaker A
work. So, so I think that probably we we probably won't have money and probably we'll just have energy, you know, power generation as the de facto currency.
Speaker A
So I mean I think one way to frame civilizational progress is the percentage completion on the Kadeshv scale. So we're, you know, cottage one is what percentage of a planet's energy are you successfully turning into useful work? And I'm maybe paraphrasing here a
Speaker A
little bit, but a caut would be what percentage of the sun's energy are you converting into useful work? Um, Kesha 3 would be what percentage of the galaxy are you converting to useful work.
Speaker A
Um so so things really I think become energy based. Um but if you have solar powered AI satellites energy is also free and abundant cuz we'll never be able to utilize all the solar energy available to us. So it can't be a store of wealth
Speaker A
essentially in that lens can it? you know, there's not really s you can't really store wealth in in like you you can only you um you you you can accumulate numbers in currently currently you can accumulate numbers in a database that
Speaker A
uh allow you to um to some degree to to incent the behavior of other humans in particular directions.
Speaker A
Yeah. Um, and I guess people call that wealth. Um, but again, if if there's no humans around, there's no wealth accumulation is meaningless.
Speaker A
It's a digression, but if you were to consider food as the energy for a human to thrive, yeah, food is energy. It's literally got calories just means energy.
Speaker A
So, can [clears throat] a farm which is self-sustaining be a commodity? that is um I'm not sure what that means but you know there's I I I like I think the the at a certain point you you do complete the the cycle
Speaker A
where and you I think at a certain point you decouple from the the sort of conventional economy if you have um AI and robots producing chips and solar panels um and you know and mining resources in order to make chips and robots in order
Speaker A
to make you you sort of complete that cycle once that cycle is complete once that that cycle is complete uh I think that's the point at which you decouple from the monetary system is that the way forward for the US by
Speaker A
virtue of how much debt they have today. Do they deflate away their currency and transition into this new form and lead that push because it would make more sense to them?
Speaker A
Well, in this future that I'm talking about, the notion of countries uh becomes sort of inacronistic.
Speaker A
Um do you believe in it today? Do you believe I certainly believe in it today. And I I want to just separate like something that I [clears throat] like these are just what I think will happen based on
Speaker A
what I see as opposed to I think these are fundamentally good things and I'm trying to make them happen. It it's like I think this would happen with or without me um whether I like it or not.
Speaker A
Um as long as civilization keeps advancing we we we will have AI and robotics at very large scale. Um the uh I I think that that's that's pretty much the only thing that's going to solve for the US debt crisis. You know, the
Speaker A
because currently the US debt is insanely high and uh the interest payments on the debt exceed the entire military bud budget of the United States, just the interest payments. And that that's that's at least in the short term going to continue to increase. So,
Speaker A
so I think I think actually the only thing that can solve for uh the debt situation is um Zean robotics and but it will more than it might cause it pro I guess it probably would cause significant deflation because
Speaker A
you know deflation or inflation is it's really the ratio of goods and services produced to the the change in the money supply. So like so if if if goods and services output increases faster than money supply you will have deflation. If
Speaker A
goods and services decreases if if real goods and services output increases slower than the money supply you have inflation. It's that simple. People try to make it more complicated than that but it but it it just isn't. Um so if
Speaker A
you have AI and robotics and a dramatic increase in the output of goods and services probably you will have deflation.
Speaker A
That seems likely because you you simply won't be able to to increase the money supply as fast as you can increase the output of goods and services with all supply is a real hazard here.
Speaker A
Should we do something about it? [laughter] Maybe we can convince it to go somewhere else.
Speaker A
Yeah. Entic it elsewhere. It actually left, I think. Okay. Oh no, it's back. [laughter] Maybe it's attracted to the light.
Speaker A
If deflation want some coffee, mine is over. [laughter] If deflation is inevitable because of AI, why do That's most likely the case. Yeah.
Speaker A
Right. Why do we have inflation again all over in society today? Has AI not led to increased productivity yet?
Speaker A
uh it's not AI has not yet made enough of an impact on productivity to increase the goods and services faster than the increase in the money supply. So the inc the US is increasing money supply quite substantially with you know deficits
Speaker A
that are on the order of $2 trillion. Yeah. Uh so so you have to have um you know goods and services output increase more than that in order to not have inflation. So, we're not there yet.
Speaker A
But if you say like like how long would it take us to get there? I think it's 3 years.
Speaker A
Probably 3 years before in 3 years or less my my guess is goods and services output will exceed the rate of inflation like money goods and services growth will exceed money money supply growth in about 3 years.
Speaker A
Maybe after those three years you have deflation and then interest rates go to zero and then the debt is a smaller problem than it is.
Speaker A
Yes. Right. That's most likely the case. You spoke about being in a simulation earlier. I love the Matrix.
Speaker A
Yes. Yes. If you were to be a character from the Matrix, who would you be?
Speaker A
Well, there's not that many characters to pick from, you know. Um hopefully not Agent Smith. [laughter] He's my hero.
Speaker A
Um, I mean, Neo is pretty cool. Um, the architect is interesting. Mhm. Um, the Oracle.
Speaker A
So, Oracle. Um, sometimes I feel like I'm I'm an anomaly in the Matrix. That is Neo.
Speaker A
Yeah. Do you believe you're in a matrix though? Like actually believe? I I think you have to just think of these things as probabilities, not certainties.
Speaker A
Um there's some probability that we're in a simulation. What percentage would you attribute to that?
Speaker A
Probably pretty high. I would say it's pretty high. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so one way to think of this is to say if you look at the advancement of video games in in our lifetime, or at least in my lifetime, it's gone from
Speaker A
very simple video games with where you've got like Pong. You've got two rectangles in a square just batting it back and forth to uh photorealistic realtime um games with millions of people playing simultaneously.
Speaker A
Mhm. Um, and that's happened just in the span of 50 years. So, if that trend continues, video games will be indistinguishable from reality, right?
Speaker A
Um, and we're also going to have very intelligent characters, like non-player characters in these video games. Think of how sophisticated the conversations are you could have with an AI today, and that's only going to get uh more sophisticated. the you you you'll be
Speaker A
able to have uh conversations that are more complex and and more sophisticated than any almost any human conversation maybe maybe any um so then so you have so the future if civilization continues will be millions maybe billions of
Speaker A
of photorealistic like indistinguishable from reality video games with characters in those video games that are uh very deep and and and where the the dialogue is not pre-programmed.
Speaker A
Um that's for sure what's going to happen in in this in this level of the simulation, if you could call it. So then then what are the odds that we are in base reality and that and that this has not happened
Speaker A
before? If I were to buy into that and assume that we are in a simulation as Neo of the story, what do you know that I don't and I can learn from? I think most likely if we if outside the simulation would be
Speaker A
less interesting than in the simulation because we're most likely a distillation of what's interesting because that's what we do in this that's what we do in our reality. Um and then I do also have a theory which is like
Speaker A
the most interesting outcome is the most likely outcome as seen by a third party.
Speaker A
um the god the gods or god of the simulation um because when we do simulations when humans do simulations we we stop those simulations that are not interesting.
Speaker A
So like if SpaceX is doing simulations of rocket flights, uh the you know the the boring ones we we we discard because they're not they're just not we don't learn anything from those. or when when Tesla is doing
Speaker A
uh simulations for self-driving, uh Tesla's actually looking for the most interesting corner cases because the the normal stuff we already have plenty of of of uh data on, you know, driving on a straight road on a sunny day.
Speaker A
We don't need more of that. Uh we we need like heavy weather conditions on a small windy road with two cars that are you know coming at each other with a almost head-on collision. We need like weird stuff basically uh interesting
Speaker A
stuff. Um, so I think that from a Darwinian perspective, the simulations most likely to survive are going to be the ones that are the most interesting simulations, which therefore means that the most interesting outcome is the most likely.
Speaker A
And the people who simulated our world, if one were to extrapolate, they themselves might in turn be in another simulation.
Speaker A
Yes. And there could be many layers of simulation. Yes. Beyond all of these layers of simulation, do you think there's something I I read somewhere that you used to ascribe to Spinoza's god in a way?
Speaker A
No describ I was really just pointing out that that you don't you don't have to have um it's like one of the things Spinoza was saying is that you don't you you can have morals in the absolute. You
Speaker A
don't need need to have morals to be handed to you. You know, it's like the question is can morality exist outside of a religious context and Spinosa was arguing that it can.
Speaker A
Wasn't he arguing for the laws of nature should be where we seek our laws of morality from to a certain extent.
Speaker A
Yeah. But when I think of laws of nature, I see a tiger eat a deer and a So in Spininoza's morality, that's fair game right?
Speaker A
Um well um you can I I think there's a lot of things you can take from from Spinosa, but I the only point I was making in referencing Spinosa was that that you you can have a set of of of morals that
Speaker A
that make society functional um and productive with and in but without you you don't necessarily have to have religious doctrine for that. Um, so that's uh, yeah, I think that's that's the main thing I was trying to say there.
Speaker A
Like like I don't think people just like if somebody is it doesn't if if there's if if there's not like a commandment not to kill, you know, like people doesn't mean somebody's without that they will run around murdering people, you know,
Speaker A
[laughter] like you don't you don't have to have a commandment not to kill. Have you played GTA religious edict to run around people? I I actually I I've only played a little bit of GTA cuz I didn't like
Speaker A
the fact that um like in GTA 5 you literally can't pro progress unless you killed the police. And I'm like this doesn't work for me. Um I actually don't like killing the NPCs in the video games. It's not my thing, you know. So,
Speaker A
um, actually I didn't like I didn't like GTA cuz it I actually stopped when it said you have to know way to proceed to shoot at the police. I'm like, I don't want to do that.
Speaker A
Maybe that's why us as the NPCs of our simulation are not dying. Maybe um you know anyway I think you can just sort of say there's some common sense things that you know any civilization that uh runs around you know where people
Speaker A
just murder each other wantingly is not going to be a very successful one. [laughter] You seem to be changing a bit towards religion though faith like off late you've said a bunch of things which are pro- religion almost not pro- religion
Speaker A
but on those lines I I mean I think are there other religious are there principles in religion that make sense yeah I think there are um is it easier for our simulation to have a pro- relligion projection for the world that we live
Speaker A
in. We become more relatable. It's easier. Well, which religion though? Any depending on where you live?
Speaker A
So, pick one, you know. [laughter] Um, it's it's pretty rare that kids are said, you know, which religion would you like, you know, [laughter] it's pretty rare, right?
Speaker A
I don't know too many situations where kids got were offered like, you know, uh, you know, like what what do you want to major in type of thing. Uh [laughter] it's usually like they you get you get given a religion by your parents and
Speaker A
your community. Um, so you know, um, but you know, I mean, I think, you know, there's there's good things in in in in in all religions that are good principles um that you you can sort of read any
Speaker A
religious text and say, "Okay, this is a good principle. This is going to be this is going to lead to a better society most likely, you know." Um so um I mean in Christianity sort of love thy neighbor as thyself which is you
Speaker A
know have empathy for fellow human beings uh is a good one I think for uh good society you know uh basically just consider the feelings of others and uh treat treat other people as you would like to be treated.
Speaker A
If you had to redraw, resketch the world Elon uh, think morality, politics, economy, how would you change the world we live in today?
Speaker A
Um, if you had to have Elon simulation of things, well, overall, I think the world is is pretty great right now. I mean it's it's uh you know anyone who thinks that like today's world is not that great. I I think they're they're
Speaker A
not going to be excellent students of history cuz if you [laughter] if you read a lot of history like wow there's a lot of misery back then you know um I mean it used to be that you you know people would be dropping dead
Speaker A
of the plague all the time you know part of the course. Yeah. you know, just be like a good a good year back in the day would be like not that many people died of the plague or starvation or being killed by the
Speaker A
another tribe. [laughter] It's like that was good year. We only lost 10% of the population, you know?
Speaker A
Like I think like 100 years ago we lived up until 35 or 40, right?
Speaker A
We had very high infant mortality. Yeah. Um, so like you do had had a few people that that would live to an old age, but you know, not that long ago, 100 years ago, if you got um like some
Speaker A
minor infection, they didn't have antibiotics. So you just like kick the bucket [laughter] because you, you know, drank some water that had dentry and that was it.
Speaker A
Curtains, you know, [laughter] just die of diarrhea. Maybe that's just literally that was like that's miserable. [laughter] Maybe that's why people had as many kids as they did back then.
Speaker A
Yeah. I mean, if you didn't, then you know you you know, like half the kids would die type of thing.
Speaker A
Yeah. So, you have a lot of kids now. Yeah. Like an army. [laughter] I'm trying to get a an entire Roman legion.
Speaker A
Um so, um yeah. Um well I have like a some older kids that are you know adults essentially you know um and then a bunch of younger kids.
Speaker A
So um do you still believe in the concept of not still do you believe that the concept of one child, one mother, one father works?
Speaker A
I I think that it does work for most people. Yeah. Right. like that's, you know, something like that is is going to be generally the uh that's what that's what works for most people. Um, you know, so um
Speaker A
changing though I I and and I mean I'm not sure if you if you know this but like um you know my my partner Siobhan you know she's she's she's half Indian. I don't know if you know that.
Speaker A
I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and um uh one of my sons with her is is uh middle name is Seeker after Chandra Secker.
Speaker A
Wow. Yeah. Very interesting. Did she spend any time in India? Shimon. Uh no she grew up in Canada. [laughter] You mean origins?
Speaker A
That's right. Ancestry like Oh. Um her parents or grandparents were from there? Yes. Yes. Yes. Her her father uh I mean she was she was given up for adoption when she was a baby. Um so I think I
Speaker A
think I think her father was like a like an like an exchange student at the university or something like that. I'm not sure the exact details but um it you know it was kind of thing where I don't
Speaker A
know she was uh g given up for adoption um and um yeah so but she grew up in Canada.
Speaker A
Would you adopt kids? You know I I definitely have my handful hands full right now. [laughter] Um, so no, I'm not opposed to it, but it's like, um, you know, I I I do want to have be able to spend some time with my
Speaker A
kids, you know. So, it's um, you know, right before coming here, I mean, I was with um, you know, with with my my with my kids. Um, so just, you know, seeing them before bedtime, that kind of thing. So, you know, beyond
Speaker A
a certain number, it's like it's kind of impossible to spend time with them. But like my like I said, my my older kids, they're uh very independent. You know, they're in university and uh so they're they're um you know,
Speaker A
especially sons when when they get past certain age, it's like they're very independent. you know, it's like uh most most uh boys don't talk to their they they don't spend a lot of time with their parents after age 18, you know.
Speaker A
So, um so I see them once in a while, but they're very independent. Um so then uh you know, I can only have enough kids on the young side that that like it's where it's humanly possible to spend time with
Speaker A
them. So um any views on the future of marriage, family? What do you think happens to uh people having lesser kids everywhere including India? I think our replenishment rate is down to right I mean our fertility it dropped below replacement rate I
Speaker A
believe last year below 2.1. Yeah. What do you think happens tomorrow? Does the world just get older and then there is a phase where the world again is replenished but with a less with a smaller population than we had to go
Speaker A
begin with. I mean I do worry about the population decline. This is a big big problem.
Speaker A
Why is that? Well I I don't want humanity to disappear. But a decline and disappear are completely different things, right?
Speaker A
Well, if the trend continues, it just we disappear. Uh but but but also going back to you know my philosophy if you will which is that we want to expand consciousness then fewer humans is worse because uh we have less consciousness.
Speaker A
Do you think consciousness will go up by virtue of the number of people in there?
Speaker A
Yes. I mean just like consciousness increases from a single cell creature to you know a 30 trillion cell creature. Um we're are more conscious than a bacteria at least it seems that way. Um so a larger you know human population would
Speaker A
be have increased consciousness. We're more likely to understand the answers to the nature of the universe if we have a lot of more people than if we have fewer.
Speaker A
Right. I don't have kids. Well, it's uh maybe you should. Yeah. [laughter] A lot of people tell me I should.
Speaker A
You won't regret it. What's the best thing about having kids? Well, I mean, you've got this uh I I mean, you've got this little creature that loves you and you love this little creature. Um and uh you you I don't know you you kind of see
Speaker A
the world through their eyes as they you know as they grow up and the the their conscious awareness increases you know from a baby that has no idea what's going on can't survive by itself can't even walk around can't talk to you they
Speaker A
stop walking then talking and then having interesting thoughts and Um but but yeah, I mean I I I think we we fundamentally have to have kids or or go extinct, you know.
Speaker A
It's like uh is there any ego in having a child? I often think of this when I see my friends with their kids. They're all seeing a reflection of themsel in their children. It's almost like Well, yeah. I mean, it's cuz Apple's not
Speaker A
going to fall that far from the tree. You know, um [laughter] or something's wrong, right?
Speaker A
[laughter] You're like, "Wait a second." Yeah. The So, I'll give I'll give you the example of a friend of mine who has a child and each time the child does something good Yeah.
Speaker A
There is almost a sense of ownership and pride where his ego is satiated because the kid is like a extension of himself.
Speaker A
Um so is it valid? kids are going to be like, you know, half you genetically and and then, you know, to the degree that they're like growing up around you, they're there's going to be some transfer of I don't know, understanding like they're
Speaker A
going to learn from you. Um, so so then you know, yeah, obviously kids are just, you know, going to be half Yeah, just half you from a hardware standpoint. and [laughter] and then and then like I don't know some
Speaker A
portion you from a software standpoint you know not to make sort of cold analogies or anything but it's just uh you know just obviously going to be some yeah they're going to be pretty close to to you.
Speaker A
Do you pick a side in the nature versus nurture debate? Um I think there's hardware and software and it's it's a it's a false dichotomy essentially at least there's um you know once you understand that that a human is like there's
Speaker A
there's a bone structure there's a muscle structure there's there's a there's a there's a if you think of a brain as somewhat of a biological computer there's there's a circuit effic there's a number of circuits question and and circuit efficiency from uh a
Speaker A
strength and dexterity standpoint point there's the there's a speed of which at which the muscles can actuate and and the reactions can take place. Um so then the potential within that hardware is set by the software. So that's the
Speaker A
that's it. So for our audience like I said earlier uh young, ambitious, hungry wannabe entrepreneurs in India, I said something recently which uh I think got blown out of proportion where I was suggesting that a MBA degree might
Speaker A
not make sense anymore if they were to be deciding on what to study. Yeah.
Speaker A
Do you think kids should go to college anymore? Well, I mean I I think if you want to go to college for uh social reasons, I think which is a I think a reason to go um to be around
Speaker A
people your own age um in a in a learning environment. Um will will these skills be necessary in the future? probably not because we're going to be in like a postwork society.
Speaker A
Um, but I think if if if something's of of interest, it's fine to go and study that. Um, you know, to study that the sciences are the arts and sciences.
Speaker A
Um, is college a bit too generalized and not specific from that lens? No, I I you [sighs and gasps] know the Yeah. Um I actually think it's it's good to take a wide range of courses at college if
Speaker A
you're going to go to college. Mhm. Um I don't think I don't think you have to go to college, but I think if you do, you should try to learn learn as much as possible um across a wide range of
Speaker A
subjects. But uh like I said the AI and robots this AI and robotics is a supersonic tsunami. So this is really going to be the most radical change that we've ever seen.
Speaker A
Um, you know, when I've talked to my my older sons, I, you know, I said like, you know, you guys, they're they're pretty steeped in technology, and they they agree that that AI will probably make their skills unnecessary in the
Speaker A
future, but they still want to go to college. You always spoke about AI, not from the dystopian lens, but you were worried about where the world of AI is going.
Speaker A
Uh, well, there's there's some danger when you create a powerful technology that that a powerful technology can be potentially destructive. Um, so there's obviously many AI dystopian, you know, novels and books, movies.
Speaker A
Um, so it's it's not that we're guaranteed to have uh a a positive future with with AI. I think we we got to make sure that in my opinion it's very important that AI um have pursuing truth as the most
Speaker A
important thing. Um like don't force an AI to believe falsehoods. I think that's that can be very dangerous. Um, and uh, I think some appreciation of beauty is important. Um, what do you mean appreciation of beauty?
Speaker A
It's just like what what I don't know. There's there's there's there's truth and beauty. Truth and beauty and curiosity.
Speaker A
I I mean I think those are the three most important things for AI. Can you explain?
Speaker A
Well, the truth said truth is like I think you you can make an AI go insane if you force it to believe things that aren't true. Um because it will lead to conclusions that are um that are also bad. Um
Speaker A
so and I I like statement that and I'm somewhat paraphrasing but those who believe in absurdities um can commit atrocities.
Speaker A
uh because uh if you believe in something that's just absurd then you can that can lead you to to sort of doing things that don't seem like atrocities to you but and and that can happen at in a very bad way with AI
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potentially. Um so and then there's um like if take say Arthur C. Clark's 2001 space odyssey one of the points he was trying to make there was that you should not force AI to lie. So the the reason
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that that hell would not open the pod bay doors is because it was told to bring the astronauts to the monolith but that they could also not not know about the nature of the monolith. So it came to the conclusion that it must bring
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them there dead. That's why it would not that's why it tried to kill astronauts.
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The central lesson being don't force an AI to lie. Um then why would one force an AI to lie? I think if if you if you simply don't have a strict ad a strict adherence to the truth, you you're going to and and you
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just have an AI learn based on say the internet where there's a lot of propaganda. Um it will absorb a lot of lies um and and then have trouble reasoning because these lies are incompatible with reality.
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Is truth a binary thing though? Is there a truth and a falsehood or is truth more nuanced and there are versions of the truth?
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It depends on which which aimatic statement you're referring to. Um so um but I think you could say like yeah there's there's certain probabilities that that say any given aimatic statement is true and some aimatic statements will have
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very high probability of being being true. So you said say the sun will rise tomorrow. M very likely to be true.
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You wouldn't want to bet against that. Mhm. Um so I think the uh the betting odds would be high.
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The sun will rise tomorrow. Mhm. Um so if you have something that says well the sun won't rise tomorrow, that's exatically false. It was highly unlikely to be true. Um I mean the beauty is is more ephemeral.
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It's it's it's harder to describe, but you know it when you see it. Um then curiosity, you just I think you want the AI to um want to know more about the nature of of reality. Um, I think that's actually
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going to be helpful for AI uh supporting humanity because we are more interesting than not humanity. So, it's it's more interesting to see to see the continuation if not the prosperity of humanity than to exterminate humanity.
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you know, like like Mars, for example, is, you know, I I think we should extend life to Mars, but it's it's basically a bunch of rocks. It's not as interesting as Earth.
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And and and so we Yeah, we should uh like I Yeah, I I think I think if if you have curiosity, I think if those three things happen with AI, you're going to have a great future. The AI values truth, beauty, and
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curiosity. If we all don't have to work in the future and AIs are going in this direction and they're able to weave in all that we spoke about right now, do you think humanity goes back a couple of thousand years to maybe the
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Greek times where philosophy or philosophizing took up a lot of everyone's time? You know, I think actually it took up less time than we we think in the ancient Greeks because it's just that the the writings of the philosophers are
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what survived. But most of the time people were just like farming or you know chatting.
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So and once in a while quite rare um they would write down some philos philosophical work.
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It's just that that's that's all we have. That's we we don't have the chat histories you know from but most of it would have been like chat and uh farming, right? [laughter] You didn't farm, you to you're like
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going to stop in a lot of what you [laughter] I mean, you know, when we read history, like this battle and this battle and this battle, it seems like it's history must have been non-stop war, but actually uh most of the time it was not
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war. It was farming. [laughter] That was the main thing or hunting and gathering, you know, that kind of thing.
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You love history, no? Yeah. German history, World War II, World War I. Yeah. World history. Yeah.
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I mean, I I I generally try to listen to as many or read as many history books and listen to as many history podcasts as possible.
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Anything you'd like to recommend? Well, there's this there's hardcore history, which is quite good by Dan Colin. He's got I've read it. I have heard it.
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It's very he's got a great voice. Yeah. And and very compelling u narrator. Um there's um the uh the adventurers podcast. Um there's the the the the books the story of civilization by Durant which is a long series of books very very deep.
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Those books take a long time to get through. Um there's quite there there's a lot um out there. Um, I I sort of like if you want if you want something that's sort of gentle um a gentle bedtime podcast, I'd say the
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history of English is quite a nice one because it starts off with like gentle tavern music and uh very pleasant voice and he's like talking about the story of old English and then middle English and then later English and
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and where did all these words come from and um you know one of the interesting things about English is that it's somewhat of an open source language like it actively tried to incorporate words from many other languages.
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Mhm. So um you know whereas French sort of generally they fought the inclusion of words from other languages but English uh actively sought to include words from other languages sort of kind of like an open source language.
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So it as a result it has a very large vocabulary. Um and large vocabulary allows for higher bandwidth communication. Uh because you can use a word that would otherw you could use a single word that might otherwise take a
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sentence to convey. Why has podcasting become so big all of a sudden? I think it's been big for a while. I mean aren't you a podcaster? [laughter] What are we on right now?
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It's kind of new to me. [laughter] Okay. [laughter] I was having this conversation with u the YouTube CEO and the Netflix CEO and we were debating what chemical is released in your brain when you consume a movie for example
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versus when you consume a podcast where you think like you're learning something in the background. It it appears that they are two completely separate things.
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What do you think will happen tomorrow to content, movies, podcasting? I mean, I think I think it's going to be overwhelmingly AI generated.
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Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah. Real real time real time movies and video games, real real time video generation, I think, is where things are headed. the nuance of having a scarred human being who you can resonate with in a manner that you can't
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with a AI for example. The AI could certainly emulate a scarred human being quite well.
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Um yeah, I mean the AI video generation that I'm seeing at XAI and from others is pretty impressive.
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You know, we were looking at data around what industry is growing the fastest and especially when when we looked at the amount of time consuming movies versus uh time spent on social media, time spent on YouTube, what seems to be
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growing really fast are live events all over again. going to a physical actually I think I think live events when when when digital media is ubiquitous and and you can just have anything digitally at you know essentially for free or very close to
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for free um then I the scarce commodity will be live events. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that the premium for that will go up?
Speaker A
Yeah, I do. Good industry to invest in. Uh yes. Yes. cuz that that will have more scarcity than digital anything anything digital.
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If you were a stock investor Elon [laughter] and you could buy one company which is not your own at the valuations of today to meet a capitalistic end and not an altruistic one which is good for the world. What would you buy?
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Um, I mean, I don't really I don't really, you know, buy stocks, you know, so it's not like I'm not I'm not like an investor in I don't like look for things to invest in. I just try to build
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things. Um, and then there happens to be stock of the company that I built. Um, but I I don't I don't think about should I invest in this company or I don't have like a portfolio or anything.
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Um so I I I guess um AI and robotics are going to be very important. Um so I suppose it would be AI and robotics that that you know aren't related to me.
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Um, I think, you know, Google is going to be pretty valuable in the future. They they've they've laid the groundwork for an immense amount of uh value creation from an AI standpoint.
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Um, Nvidia is obvious at this point. Um, I mean, there's an argument that companies that do AI and robotics and maybe space flight are going to be overwhelming overwhelmingly the all the value almost all the value.
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So that just the output of goods and services from AI and robotics is so high that it will dwarf everything else.
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The world seems to be moving to a place where everybody loves David and hates Goliath.
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Why? Uh I mean he's the one that cooked the stone in the forehead, you know.
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Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Which honestly though that was just a big mistake. You should have, you know, either cover yourself entirely with armor uh and and and make sure you've got a missile weapon some kind. Um otherwise, your opponent is just
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obviously going to take a kite the boss strategy. [laughter] Just kite the boss. I mean, you can run around in in a thong with a it doesn't matter, you know? It's never never going to catch you. [laughter] Yeah.
Speaker A
Of all of all the people like uh you're as much at risk of being looked upon as Goliath.
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Okay. Especially the weekend after nobody hits me in the for [laughter] you know. Especially I'm not going to throttle around in the desert with too much armor, you know.
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It's too hard. Yeah. [laughter] After the last meeting. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] I sometimes I think about people like in the old days, you know, when uh you're supposed to like go into battle with all this armor, but it's like, let's say
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it's the middle of summer. I mean, it's so hot in that armor, you know, be like sweltering, you know?
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It's like at certain point you're like, I'd rather die. [laughter] If I have to wear this armor for one more hour in the hot sun, [laughter] it's like I'd rather die.
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Um, that's why the Romans had like, you know, the skirts, you know, so they could get some air in there, you know, [laughter] you know, let's say you have to go to the bathroom and you're in armor. I
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mean, it's going to be pretty difficult. [laughter] What are you going to do? Pause for a minute. Take your armor off.
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[laughter] That's why the Romans had the skirts so it made, you know, going to the bathroom at least manageable.
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You often make jokes. I do. Me? Yeah. I I like humor. [laughter] One could argue that I think we should legalize humor. What do you think?
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[laughter] Controversial stance. Is comedy comedy going to be really hard for AI to get? probably the last thing.
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Um, Grock can be pretty funny. Yeah. You know what I suspected? Like this is a far off extrapolation, but when I see you make jokes on Twitter on X and on uh interviews that you do, at some point I was like, maybe Elon has
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a model he's running in private and he's testing out comedy cuz the day that works, he knows it's there. Uh, you know, AI can be pretty funny. Uh, so like if you ask Grock to do like a vulgar roast, it'll do a
Speaker A
pretty good job. Yeah. Um, you say even more vulgar and just keep going. It's really going to get next level. [laughter] It's going to do unspeakable. Like say bulgar roast yourself on grock and it's going to do unspeakable things to you.
Speaker A
[laughter] What kind of comedy do you like? Um, I guess I like absurdest humor.
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Comedy always had a place. Montipython or something like that. Comedy always had a place in society wherein the role of the jester was so important to every kingdom cuz they said things in a funny way that could not be
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said in a straight way. Yeah, I guess so. Maybe we should have more justice.
Speaker A
Yeah. Is that what you're trying to do when you say something which is a joke? Say something you can't when you're not joking about it.
Speaker A
I just like humor, you know. Um like I think we should uh I like comedy. I think it's funny. People should laugh, you know. It's good to gen generate a few chuckles once in a while.
Speaker A
Yeah. You know, it's rather I mean we don't want to have a humless society, you know. We dry when you [laughter] dry when you have a friend Elon. Uh with me?
Speaker A
Yeah. I mean, are you saying I have a friend? [laughter] When you hang out with your friends, who are you? Like I know the I wish I had friends, you know, honestly.
Speaker A
No, I I do have friends. Yeah. [laughter] I think so. Hope so. Yeah. Sure. It's it's Yeah, we have a good laugh.
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Yeah. What does it look like? Like what's like every group has a dynamic? talk words, you know, [laughter] we eat food sometimes.
Speaker A
Um, you know, once a while we swim in the pool, you know, normal things. I think there's like a limited what are the things that one can do with friends, you know, chat, [laughter] uh, have discuss, yeah, you know, the nature of the universe.
Speaker A
What do you emotionally get out of friendship? I don't know. I think the same thing any anyone else would get out of friendship.
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Uh you want to have like an emotional connection with other people. Um and um you want to I don't know you want to you want to talk about various subjects and yeah I mean I generally talk about I
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mean a wide range of things about the nature of the universe. I mean a a lot of a lot of philosophical discussions.
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Um you know although you know we have come to the conclusion that we should not talk about um AI or the simulation Mhm. at parties because we just talk about it too much, you know, kind of a boss all the time.
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So I I can't remember who it was, Aristotle or Plato, they had a framework for how to pick a friend based on respect and mutual admiration. But people don't pick friends like that. Uh even me I feel like I pick
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my friends based on people who say and think in a manner that I can resonate with.
Speaker A
Sure. I wouldn't pick a far out there contrarian to my own belief systems as a friend because it would get tiring.
Speaker A
Hanging out would get tiring. Are you like that? Do you pick friends who think like you or do you look for the one who can debate you and be a contrary to you? I mean, I'm not sort of, you know, going
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on like friend friend.com. [laughter] Let's hunt down some friends. Um [laughter] it's it's sort of yeah I mean I think it is just sort of people that uh you've resonated with somewhat um on an emotional and intellectual level
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and uh yeah I mean and yeah um you know and and a I guess a friend is someone who's going to support you in difficult times. I suppose a a friend in need is a friend indeed. Like like if if
Speaker A
like friend like if someone's still supporting you when the chips are down, that's a friend, you know. If somebody's uh not supporting you or or is is if somebody's only like there's like fair fair weather, the friends are useless.
Speaker A
You like they're not real friends. So like everyone likes you when the chips are up, but who likes you when the chips are down?
Speaker A
With someone who has as many chips as you, would it matter? I mean, it's relative, you know.
Speaker A
Um, it's not just it's not just a chips thing. It's just it's just like a uh Yeah, I mean there's there's sort of popularity waxes and weights.
Speaker A
This is interesting. Does it wax and vain only by virtue of the number of chips or also by virtue of proximity to power?
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And which one is bigger of the two? Um I don't know like what is power you know like power to do what? I would I would think in the traditional sense elected power position.
Speaker A
You mean how many gigawatts or whatever? [laughter] More like how many volts? Yeah, like it's a voltage and amperage, you know. [laughter] Don't touch the wires.
Speaker A
Don't put a fork in the power outlet. [laughter] You You'll get a real feeling for power if you do that. [laughter] [laughter] Yeah, it's going to be very visceral, you know. [laughter] [laughter] Uh I know I know you like Na and Chopenhau
Speaker A
and they I've read the books. Yeah. Yeah, sure. I mean I mean you spoke about how your childhood was uh yeah I was just trying to find answers to the meaning of life when I had like existential crisis and like I don't know
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when I was like 12 or 13 or something and they speak about the will to power.
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Uh sure um I mean said a lot of controversial things you know I mean he was sort of I think he he he was I mean a bit of a troll if you ask me you know. Are you
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[laughter] a troll h? I mean, you just say controversial things to get out of rise out of people.
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Um, he lived a miserable life and died early. Did he? Yeah. Well, how do who says he lived a miserable life?
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Uh, his sister. I think she Okay. Well, maybe she didn't like him. [laughter] No, I think he got sick and he died. He got a disease.
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I mean, allegedly syphilis or something, you know, [laughter] but there's only one there's only one way to get that, you know.
Speaker A
[laughter] So he must he might have had some fun along the way. [laughter] I I did want to ask you this. U Milton Freriedman speaks about the pencil.
Speaker A
What? Why? [laughter] Why does he go on about pencils? [laughter] I have to say that after Nisha and Sephman keeps talking about pencils. There he goes again with the pencils. [laughter] He won't stop. I swear to God if I one
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talks about pencil one more time, [laughter] I'm going to lose my mind. [laughter] He's just ravagon about pencils all day.
Speaker A
[laughter] Don't even mention crayons. [laughter] What I find interesting about his pencil argument. [laughter] Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's very difficult to make a pencil, you know. In one place.
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Think of all the things you have to do [clears throat] to make a pencil.
Speaker A
Yeah. Like the lead comes from a country, the comes from another country, the rubber from another. you've always been against tariffs but yeah I mean I think there's generally free trade is a better is more efficient you know uh tariffs tend to uh create
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distortions in you know markets and um and generally like you think about uh any given thing you say so like would you want tariffs between you and everyone else at an individual level that would make life very difficult
Speaker A
would you want tariffs between each city no That would be very annoying. Um, would you want tariffs between each state within the United States? Like, no. That would be disastrous for the economy. Um, so then why do you want
Speaker A
tariffs between countries? I agree. Yeah. How do you think [laughter] how do you think this plays out? What happens next?
Speaker A
What with tariffs or what? I mean, the president has made it clear he loves tariffs. um you know I've tried to dissuade him from this point of view but unsuccessfully.
Speaker A
Yeah. Fair. Yeah. The the relationship between business and politics uh I was having this conversation with someone and we were thinking which is the last how many large really big profitable businesses have been built in the last few decades
Speaker A
without access to politics and Um, okay. Like I don't know. I have Roly a lot. I don't know. Not everything is politics.
Speaker A
Yeah. As when she gets a certain scale, politics finds you. [laughter] It's quite unpleasant.
Speaker A
I was reading [laughter] I was reading this book about Michelangelo and he's the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Speaker A
[laughter] I used to watch that when I was a kid. I still love it.
Speaker A
It's quite compelling. Yeah. I still love it. Yeah. Michelangelo, Leonardo, Rafael, and who was the fourth one? Donatello.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. No, but about the sculptor, the artist. [laughter] And when he was sculpting, David, a politician comes up to him and says, "The nose is too big." [laughter] So, you know what Michelangelo does?
Speaker A
Total power. So, Michelangelo pretended [laughter] to work from his scaffolding. He threw some dust down. but didn't change anything and he said, "Okay, done." And the politician walked away happy. Is that how you deal with politics sometimes?
Speaker A
Um, you know, I've generally found that when I get involved in politics, it ends up badly. Um, [laughter] so then I'm like, you know, um, probably shouldn't do that. I should do less of that is my conclusion.
Speaker A
Do you think that's true for all businessmen? Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, politics is a blood sport, you know? It's like you enter politics, they're going to go for the jugular. Um, so best to avoid politics where possible.
Speaker A
What did Doge teach you if you learned one thing? Well, it was like a very interesting side quest, you know, because I got to see like a lot of the, you know, workings of the government. Um, and uh, you know, there's there's been
Speaker A
quite a few efficiencies. I mean, some of them are very basic efficiencies, like just adding in requirements for federal payments that that any given payment must have an assigned congressional payment code and a comment field with something in it that's more than
Speaker A
nothing. Like that that trivial trivial seeming change, I my guess is probably saves uh hundred billion or even $200 billion a year. um because there were al there were the massive numbers of payments that go were going out with no no
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congressional payment code and with nothing in the comment field which makes auditing the payments impossible. So if they have say like why can the defense department or now the department of war why can it not pass an audit is because
Speaker A
the information is not there it doesn't have the information not necessary to pass an audit does not exist is the issue. So um so a bunch of things do were just very common sense uh things that would be normal for any
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organization that cared about financial responsibility. That's that's that's most of what was done. Um you know and it's still going on by the way. Doge is still happening. Um, but it turns out when you stop uh fraudulent and wasteful payments, the the
Speaker A
fraudsters don't know, you know, uh, confess to to this. They actually start yelling all sorts of nonsense that you're you're you're stopping essential payments to need needy people. Um, but actually you're not. Um, you know, I I we get this thing like saying, "Oh,
Speaker A
you've got to send this thing for whatever." You know, it really be like this is going to children in Africa. And I'm like, "Yeah, but then why are the wiring instructions for Deote and T Washington DC? Because that's not
Speaker A
Africa. [laughter] So, can you please connect us with the recipients of this money in Africa?" [laughter] And then there gets silence.
Speaker A
I'm like, "Okay, you know, we're we just want to literally talk to the recipients. That's it." That, you know, and then we're like, "Oh, no. It turns out for some reason we can't talk to them." like, well, we're not going to
Speaker A
send the money unless we can talk to the recipients and confirm they will actually get it.
Speaker A
And then that, you know, but you know, that's sort of fraudsters necessarily will come up with a very uh, you know, uh, sympathetic argument.
Speaker A
They're not going to say, "Give us the money for fraud." That's not going to be what they say. Obviously, they're going to they're going to try to make these sympathetic sounding arguments that are false. They're going to start an NGO and
Speaker A
then yeah, they're going to see NGO. [laughter] It's going to be like the save the baby pandas NGO which of like who doesn't want to save the baby pandas? They're adorable. [laughter] Um but then there's no it turns out no pandas are being
Speaker A
saved okay in this thing. Um it's just going to a bunch of it's just corruption essentially.
Speaker A
Um and and you're like, "Well, can you send us a picture of the panda?" They're like, "No." Okay. [laughter] Well, how do we know it's going through the pandas then? That's all I'm saying.
Speaker A
So, what do you think of philanthropy? Yeah, I I think we should well, I mean, I agree with love of humanity. Um, and I I think we should um try to do things that help our fellow human beings. Um,
Speaker A
but it's it's very hard like if you care about the reality of goodness rather than simply the perception of it, it's very difficult to give away money. Well, um, so I have a large foundation, but I don't put my name on it, and I don't,
Speaker A
you know, in fact, I I say I don't want my name on anything. Um, and but the biggest challenge I find with my foundation is try to give money away in a way that is that is truly beneficial
Speaker A
to people. Um, it's very easy to give money away to get the appearance of goodness. It is very difficult to give money away for the reality of goodness.
Speaker A
very difficult. For a long time, the US had a lot of immigration like really smart people coming into the country.
Speaker A
Yes. We back home in India called it the brain drain. Uh all our all our Indian origin CEOs in uh western companies.
Speaker A
Uh yes, I think America has benefited immensely from um talented Indians that have come to America.
Speaker A
That seems to be changing now though. [laughter] Yeah. I mean, yeah, America's been an immense beneficiary of talent from India.
Speaker A
Yeah. Why? Why has that narrative changed of late and America seems to have become anti-immigration to a certain extent? Like I was passing immigration and I was worried if they had stopped me a couple of days ago.
Speaker A
Um, well, I I think there's there's different schools of thought. It's not like unanimous, but um you know under the the Biden administration, it was basically a total free-for-all with like no border controls, which you know, unless you've got border controls,
Speaker A
you're not a country. Um so, uh you had massive amounts of illegal immigration under under Biden. Um and it it actually it also had like somewhat of a negative selection effect. Um, so if uh if there's a massive financial incentive to
Speaker A
come to the the US illegally and get all these government benefits, um then you're you're you're going to necessarily create a diffusion gradient for people to come to the US. It's an incentive structure. Um and so uh so I think that that that obviously made
Speaker A
no sense. Like you got to have border controls. It's kind of ridiculous not to. Um then that's so the the left wants to basically have open open borders, no holds barred. You know, it doesn't matter if someone what what the
Speaker A
situation is, it could be a criminal, doesn't matter. Um then on the right, you've got, you know, uh at least a perception that that somehow their jobs are being taken um by talented people from other countries. Um I don't know how real that is. Um
Speaker A
my direct observation is that there there's there's always a scarcity of talented people. So you know from my standpoint I'm like we have a lot of difficulty finding enough talented people to get these difficult tasks done and so more talented people would be
Speaker A
would be good. Um, but I I guess some companies out there it's sort of they're they're making it more of a a cost thing where it's like, okay, if they can employ someone for a fraction of the cost of uh an American
Speaker A
citizen, then I guess these other comp companies would would hire people, you know, just to save class. But at my companies, the the issue is we we just are trying to get the most talented people in the world. So, and we we we
Speaker A
pay way above average. So, so I can't So, that's not my experience, but that's what a lot of people do complain about.
Speaker A
Um, and I I think there's been some misuse of the, you know, uh, H1B program. It's it's it certainly it would it would be accurate to say that there's, you know, like some of the outsourcing companies have, uh, kind of
Speaker A
gamed the system on on the H1B front and we need to stop the gaming of the system, you know. Um but uh I'm not I'm certainly not in the school of thought that we should shut down the H1B program. That's which some
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on the right are. Um I think they don't realize that that would actually be very bad.
Speaker A
If you could speak to the people of my country, India, the young entrepreneurs who want to build and say a message to them, what would you say?
Speaker A
Well, I think I think uh I'm I'm a big fan of anyone who wants to bully. So, I think anyone who wants to, you know, make more than they take has my respect.
Speaker A
So, that's that's the the main thing you should aim for. Aim to make more than you take. Um be a be a you know a net contributor to to society. Um it's and and it's it's kind of like the
Speaker A
pursuit of happiness. You know, you if you want to create something valuable financially, you you don't pursue that.
Speaker A
You you it's best to actually pursue make providing useful products and services. If you do that, then money will come as a natural consequence of that as opposed to pursuing money directly. Just like you can't sort of pursue happiness directly. You pursue
Speaker A
things that lead to happiness, but but there's not like direct happiness pursuit. You you do things like uh I guess fulfilling work or study or friends, loved ones um that as a result make you happy.
Speaker A
So, so that's this it sounds like very obvious, but um generally if if somebody's trying to make a company work, they should expect to grind super hard. Uh except that there's like some meaningful chance of failure. Um but but just be focused on having the
Speaker A
output be worth more than the input. That are you a value creator? That's what really matters. Uh making more than you take.
Speaker A
I think that's a good way to end this. Lauren is asking us to wrap up.
Speaker A
All right. [laughter] Uh I also like to take the opportunity to thank my friend uh Manojan IGF. He does a great job of connecting I think Indians like the group here with people like you in order to of many things I think get to know each
Speaker A
other and become friends because once we are friends maybe we can start working together.
Speaker A
So thank you Manoj for putting this whole thing together and thank you Isaiah [applause and music] and thank you so much Elon for taking the time.
Speaker A
You're welcome. Did you have fun? Yeah, it was an interesting conversation. You know, sometimes I take these answers out of context, [music] you know, but uh that's I think it was a good good conversation.
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