Charlie Kirk COOKS Atheist on "Biblical" Slavery

A debate between a Christian host and an atheist guest over whether the Bible endorses slavery, the Old Testament's regulation of slavery, Philemon, and which figures and movements abolished slavery.

Key Takeaways

The debate centers on whether the Bible endorses slavery or merely regulates an ancient practice.
Both sides cite Old Testament law and Philemon, but interpret them very differently.
Historical claims about Wilberforce, Douglass, and the role of Christianity in abolition are contested.
The conversation is adversarial and often talks past itself, with frequent interruptions.

What the video covers

The host opens by establishing the guest's Christian beliefs (Bible as moral guide, Jesus's resurrection and atonement) before debating.
The central question is whether the Bible endorses slavery; the host argues it regulates an ancient practice rather than endorsing it.
The host distinguishes Old Testament slavery as often voluntary, economic, or temporary, and not based on race or lifelong multigenerational bondage.
Discussion of the Book of Philemon: Paul sends the runaway slave Onesimus back to Philemon, with the host framing it as encouraging Philemon to treat him as a free person.
The host argues that Christianity and Bible-inspired abolitionists, such as William Wilberforce, were central to ending slavery in the West.
The guest counters by citing Old Testament laws permitting slavery and pointing to passages about conquering nations and taking captives as slaves.
Frederick Douglass is brought up, with disagreement over his religious identity and beliefs, and whether he was a Christian figure who condemned slavery.
The debate touches on the claim that abolitionists used the Bible to argue slaves were human, while secular ideas justified no human being owned.
The exchange is heated and repeatedly interrupted, with each side accusing the other of cherry-picking verses or misstating history.
The transcript ends mid-argument with the host preparing to show scriptural justifications for slavery, leaving the debate unresolved.

Chapters

Does the host argue that the Bible endorses slavery?

No. The host argues the Bible regulates an ancient practice rather than endorsing it, distinguishing Old Testament slavery as voluntary, economic, or temporary, and not racially based or lifelong.

What role does the Book of Philemon play in the debate?

Philemon is used by the host to argue that Paul encouraged Philemon to treat the runaway slave Onesimus as a free person. The guest disputes the framing and points to scriptural passages that seem to permit slavery.

Who do the speakers credit with abolishing slavery?

The host credits Christian and biblically motivated figures such as William Wilberforce, while the guest pushes back on the claim that Christianity alone ended slavery and raises the point that abolitionists used secular beliefs as well.

Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

Speaker A

I know that you do believe the Bible, generally speaking, is a good justification for morality, a good guide for morality. You do believe Jesus Christ. You do believe that he was resurrected. You do believe that he died for our sins. Anything else you need that you feel is important before I get into the conversation to clarify?

Speaker A

for our sins. Anything else you need that you feel is important before I get into the conversation to clarify? No, but I imagine you're probably going to say something like, "Oh, does the Bible like endorse slavery or something like

Speaker A

No, but I imagine you're probably going to say something like, "Oh, does the Bible endorse slavery or something like that?"

Speaker A

Bible endorse slavery? Objectively, yes, it does. What verse? So, there is a lots of verses in the Bible. No, not correct.

Speaker A

That's actually exactly what I was talking about, because you didn't guess anything. You had a lady asking me what my belief was. Interestingly, that's not actually what I was going to ask you. Let's focus on that. Does the Bible endorse slavery?

Speaker A

view of cattle slavery which infected the That's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about child slavery.

Speaker A

Objectively, yes, it does. What verse?

Speaker A

Slavery in the Old Testament was largely sometimes voluntary, economic, or temporary. It was not lifelong or done on the basis of race or multigenerational. Finally, in the scriptures, I'm sure you know about the book of Phileiman.

Speaker A

So, there are a lot of verses in the Bible. No, not correct. The Bible regulates slavery, an ancient practice. What verse does the Bible ever endorse or morally support slavery?

Speaker A

believe is his name close actually that's actually very close yeah it's on Cyrus or whatever Paul so Paul writes to Phileiman encouraging him in fact commanding him as the authorative Christian writer and basically the pseudo um arbiter of how churches should

Speaker A

What the Bible did instead is take a pragmatic approach to an ancient and primitive people and actually made it harder to own slaves. Secondly, your view of cattle slavery, which infected the—

Speaker A

this in Luke 4. He says, "Bring liberty to the captives." And slavery is a practice that is ancient. It is a practice that is also very modern. We have more slaves today on the planet today than any other time in human

Speaker A

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about child slavery.

Speaker A

say religious people and Christians specifically, but it's a very hard point to make. I know a lot of people like to say that abolitionists use the Bible to justify why slavery was wrong. That's not exactly what happened. If you want

Speaker A

Correct. And I want to make sure everyone is morally clear on this. Cattle slavery is explicitly prohibited in the book of Exodus.

Speaker A

individual person or the first like movement? Yeah. the first person to successfully abolish slavery to successfully abolish it or lead an abolition movement. I'm trying to clarify here. William Wilberforce, you know, William Wilberforce. I want to be specific. He's the first person to do

Speaker A

Slavery in the Old Testament was largely sometimes voluntary, economic, or temporary. It was not lifelong or done on the basis of race or multigenerational. Finally, in the scriptures, I'm sure you know about the book of Philemon.

Speaker A

Because he was a pastor and a believer in the word. Tell me about Frederick Douglas. Frederick Douglas said we must abolish slavery. Why? And who was Frederick Douglas? Frederick Douglas is a Protestant Catholic or was a Protestant Catholic. It's a Oh, did you

Speaker A

Yes. Okay. What happens in the book of Philemon regarding slavery?

Speaker A

They are a real sect. Just cuz they're not very popular doesn't mean they don't exist. Well, tell me about Frederick Douglas, though. Like what his beliefs were. What do you want? I need more specific questions. You want me to just

Speaker A

Uh, so, I believe his name, the mayor, or not mayor, because it's an olden city, but it's the leader of the village. I don't remember his name. It's like Aarius, I believe, is his name.

Speaker A

You know that, right? Frederick Douglas is a former slave. Okay. Who after he was freed opened a church. Yes. Okay.

Speaker A

Close, actually. That's very close. Yeah, it's Onesimus, or whatever. Paul writes to Philemon, encouraging him, in fact commanding him as the authoritative Christian writer and basically the pseudo arbiter of how churches should form, saying, "Philemon, you should take your slave not as a slave but as a free person, because basically slavery is now in the old compact, and we're in the new compact." And finally, Jesus Christ comes to liberate us from our sins. We see this in Luke 4. He says, "Bring liberty to the captives."

Speaker A

gospel. John Quincy Adams, Thaddius Stevens, the greatest abolitionist of the West. They did not use Roman philosophy. They did not use Buddhism.

Speaker A

And slavery is a practice that is ancient. It is also a practice that is very modern. We have more slaves on the planet today than at any other time in human history. In fact, we should instead not be asking why slavery existed. Instead, we should ask the question of who abolished slavery. And I would ask you that question. I know you're going to say religious people and Christians specifically, but it's a very hard point to make.

Speaker A

and cherryick verses, but it's Christianity that got rid of the most horrific practice of slavery, and the world is a better place because of it.

Speaker A

I know a lot of people like to say that abolitionists used the Bible to justify why slavery was wrong. That's not exactly what happened. If you want to be more accurate, abolitionists used the Bible to justify why slaves should be seen as humans, and then used secular beliefs for why no human should be owned.

Speaker A

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Speaker A

Who was the first person to lead an abolition movement in the West? The first individual person, or the first movement?

Speaker A

Okay. So what I want to talk to you about was slavery in the Bible and I can show you where it was justified. You did ask me then you didn't actually give me the chance to answer the question. So

Speaker A

Yeah, the first person to successfully abolish slavery, or to successfully lead an abolition movement. I'm trying to clarify here.

Speaker A

slavery as morally acceptable. See that you're conflating two things. regulating an ancient practice that was primitive and then putting guard rail. No, no, because you're saying something incorrect. It never does the Bible ever condone the practice. Regulation is not

Speaker A

William Wilberforce. You know, William Wilberforce. I want to be specific. He's the first person to do what? Successfully abolish slavery through an abolitionist movement in the West, right? Are you saying he abolished slavery in America?

Speaker A

What about when God literally tells people while they're conquering foreign nations to take those people as slaves?

Speaker A

Well, actually, no, he was from the UK. So I said the West, not America.

Speaker A

they got human rights. Do you know they were owned as property though, right? No, they were not. They had time out.

Speaker A

So, and he did so why? Because he was a pastor and a believer in the Word.

Speaker A

of the same rights as new people that were brought into the nation of Israel.

Speaker A

Tell me about Frederick Douglass. Frederick Douglass said we must abolish slavery. Why? And who was Frederick Douglass?

Speaker A

Show me another text that does. So the Bagita repeatedly uh gives certain rights for your slaves. It does allow for slavery. Yes, most ancient texts did. However, the Blovita is thousands of years predating the Christian Bible and also predating the Old Testament and

Speaker A

Frederick Douglass was a Protestant Catholic, or was a Protestant Catholic. Oh, did you want to say he was an atheist, because you don't believe in his—because if you actually read his work—

Speaker A

justifying slavery. If I can continue with that or if you want to continue on this line of thinking and I can go back to that. No. Again, I think we I think we've covered this sufficiently is that it was communicating to an ancient

Speaker A

What is a Protestant Catholic, exactly?

Speaker A

condones it as morally acceptable or approving. And in fact, secondly, we as Christians don't just live by the old covenant. We live by the new covenant.

Speaker A

It's a group within Catholicism that takes from Protestant beliefs.

Speaker A

Well, actually again Paul himself told the Phileiman reject the practice of slavery. It is the most anti-slavery verse in the New Testament. Phileiman 11:16. You guys can actually check it right now. Phileiman 116 where Paul is writing to again the uh he's writing to

Speaker A

Okay, tell me more.

Speaker A

wait. You go read Phileiman 116 in front of everybody, please. Yeah, Phileman's way later than that, man. Way later. There you go. Yep.

Speaker A

They are a real sect. Just because they're not very popular doesn't mean they don't exist.

Speaker A

actually the word of God. That's fine. And it really does justify slavery. Then read No, then read Fly Leman 116. I'm still looking for it. Give me time.

Speaker A

Well, tell me about Frederick Douglass, though. Like, what were his beliefs?

Speaker A

can agree on that, right? Fine. I want to complete the point. It's very important because we cannot allow the word of God to be blasphemed publicly.

Speaker A

What do you want? I need more specific questions. You want me to just tell you about the guy?

Speaker A

Do you want to read it, Riley? You found it quicker. Yep. Yep. That's fair. No longer as a slave, but better than a slave. As a dear brother, he is very dear to me. You are wrong. Are we not

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker A

slave. As a dear brother, he is very dear to me, but even dear to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord. Not as a slave, but a brother in the Lord. That statement of human

Speaker A

Uh, okay. So, he was a religious leader and he condemned slavery.

Speaker A

What about when Mark and uh Lucas both recount in their gospels that Jesus himself said to slaves to respect their masters under the under wait earthly slaves respect your masters as if you would respect the Lord himself. Yes.

Speaker A

Okay. None of that is true. Actually, he ran a church. You know that, right? Frederick Douglass was a former slave, who after he was freed opened a church.

Speaker A

thinking he was talking about metaphorical slaves? It could be because at times well we don't know because He was talking to a group of slaves. Hold on. Literal slaves. First of all, Jesus talked in talked in parables all the

Speaker A

Yes.

Speaker A

But but that can be extrapolated as a moral teaching to respect your teachers, to respect your elders. And that is the context of which the teaching that Jesus Christ was talking about there. And the final point again I think we've

Speaker A

Okay. And you missed the whole former slave part. He was the number one leading abolitionist voice, who counseled Abraham Lincoln in person on multiple occasions. And he made the clarion call that slavery is inconsistent with the truth of the gospel. John Quincy Adams, Thaddeus Stevens, the greatest abolitionists of the West. They did not use Roman philosophy. They did not use Buddhism. They did not use Hinduism. They didn't use Shintoism. They didn't use Islam. They didn't use reason. They didn't use the things. They used the Bible.

Speaker A

slavery. It should not be used as moral justific. It's fine. Should not be used as moral justification. I I would just ask you a very simple moral question.

Speaker A

Hold on one second. They used the Bible to abolish slavery. So you can come here and cherry-pick verses, but it's Christianity that got rid of the most horrific practice of slavery, and the world is a better place because of it.

Speaker A

you look throughout history, the beliefs of Christianity are rapidly changing actually. So really today, I I will say though and I'll prove you wrong on the next question. Look into history. Has the Nian Creed changed? What's the Nian

Speaker A

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Speaker A

resurrection of the body. It is the Nyian creed that was established in the council of Nika. And how is that relevant to the morality of the Bible?

Speaker A

So, can I ask my question now?

Speaker A

think without interrupting. No. And the Bible doesn't either as exhibited by Paul writing to Phileiman. No, but you said in the Old Testament it was allowed and permitted and regulated. It was not condoned and said the Bible But it was

Speaker A

Amen. Because I didn't actually get to ask my question from the original point.

Speaker A

Is there morality? Let me finish without interrupting me. Let me finish without interrupting me and then we will close this. It's because the Bible was communicating to a primitive people where slavery was widespread, unchallenged, unquestioned, and embedded into those practices. It took a

Speaker A

Okay. So what I want to talk to you about was slavery in the Bible, and I can show you where it was justified. You did ask me, then you didn't actually give me the chance to answer the question. So first of all, I would like to say, in the Old Testament, in Exodus, it repeatedly says that slaves should obey their masters. It also gives you periods of how much you should charge for slaves, when you can take your slaves, when slavery is morally acceptable.

Speaker A

Okay. And I hope you accept Jesus in your heart as your Lord and Savior.

Topics:Bible slaveryOld TestamentBook of PhilemonabolitionWilliam WilberforceFrederick DouglassChristianity debateatheismreligion and moralitybiblical interpretation

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