Speaker A
I don't believe that the majority of Americans want Trump's version of America. I think Unilever has become kind of Trumpy. If a business does not have a social mission and the current guy in the White House says DEI bad, okay, DEI bad.
Ben Cohen, Ben & Jerry's co-founder, discusses Unilever conflict over Gaza, free speech, and the brand's social mission.
Ask about this video. Answers come from its transcript only — with the timestamp, so you can check them.
Generated from the transcript and can be wrong — check the timestamp.
Key Takeaways
- Ben & Jerry's social mission is integral and legally protected despite corporate ownership.
- Corporate conflicts arise when business interests clash with social justice activism.
- Ben Cohen believes business can both make profit and improve society.
- Free speech on controversial issues like Gaza remains a critical challenge for brands.
- Government priorities should shift from military spending to social welfare.
What the video covers
- Ben Cohen reflects on how Unilever's corporate stance conflicts with Ben & Jerry's social mission, especially regarding Gaza.
- The company was acquired by Unilever in 2000 but maintained an independent board to protect its social and product mission.
- Ben & Jerry's has historically integrated social justice into its business model, challenging the notion that business should only maximize profit.
- Ben Cohen criticizes corporate America for abandoning social responsibility under political pressures, likening Unilever's stance to 'Trumpy' policies.
- The interview explores the tension between business interests and activism, particularly around the Israel-Palestine conflict.
- Ben Cohen discusses the origins of Ben & Jerry's social mission and how it was embedded into the company from the start.
- The conversation touches on the challenges of maintaining social activism within a large corporate structure.
- Ben Cohen advocates for government spending on social needs rather than military budgets.
- The interview highlights the importance of free speech and corporate responsibility in addressing human rights issues.
- Ben Cohen explains the creation of independent governance to uphold Ben & Jerry's social mission post-acquisition.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Unilever's stance
- 01:55Ben Cohen on changing the world
- 06:07Origins of Ben & Jerry's social mission
- 08:06Compatibility of business and social mission
- 10:12Peace pop and activism through products
- 12:11Corporate governance and independence
- 14:30Conflict over Gaza and Israel-Palestine
- 17:41Free speech, Jewish identity, and activism
- 20:19Business responsibility and customer support
- 22:41Closing remarks and reflections
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
bad. Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. I'm Christian Guri Murphy and this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have helped shape them. My guest this week is
Speaker A
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. I'm Christian Guri Murphy, and this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have helped shape them. My guest this week is
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they cut what sounded like an amazing deal to still give them quite a lot of independence and the freedom to voice their feelings about social and political justice and all the causes that Ben and Jerry's had partly become
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Ben Cohen, who co-founded the ice cream company Ben and Jerry's 40 years ago in Vermont with his school friend Jerry Greenfield. Now, the company was acquired famously by Unilever in 2000, but Ben and Jerry stayed with it and
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started this September to convince Unilver to free the brand up for sale. Jerry Greenfield felt he couldn't carry on anymore and has actually left Ben and Jerry's as an employee, though I'm sure he's still a friend uh and close
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they cut what sounded like an amazing deal to still give them quite a lot of independence and the freedom to voice their feelings about social and political justice and all the causes that Ben and Jerry's had partly become
Speaker A
Yeah, good to be here. How how do you want to change the world? I'd like to make it a more caring place.
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famous for helping support. And they have run into trouble because particularly over their feelings and their campaigning around Gaza, they seem to have come into corporate conflict with Unilever, and Free Ben and Jerry's is a campaign that Ben
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around uh you know for for small percentages of the US Pentagon budget uh we could provide food for everybody in our own country and around the world who doesn't have enough to eat. Uh we could provide medicines that that people need.
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started this September to convince Unilever to free the brand up for sale. Jerry Greenfield felt he couldn't carry on anymore and has actually left Ben and Jerry's as an employee, though I'm sure he's still a friend and close
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you know doesn't put you into bankruptcy. Uh it's it's just incredible to me that a and and the other fact of the matter is that you know people in the United States they have no desire to kill people in other countries that they've
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confidant of Ben's, which we will try and discover in the course of this conversation. So, Ben, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
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bed with corporate America through unilver yet you carried on your sense of social and political justice. I mean, h have you now hit the wall that tells you these things are fundamentally incompatible?
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Yeah, good to be here. How do you want to change the world? I'd like to make it a more caring place.
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company uh as a financial mission and our product mission to to make the best ice cream possible.
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I'd like our governments to start spending our money on things that actually help people instead of spending, you know, in the US 60 or 70% of our budget on killing people. It's really amazing that there's enough to go
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was nothing we could do to stop it based on SEC rules. And uh but as a you know as a result during those negotiations uh there was a very unusual uh structure governance structure that was formed for Ben & Jerry's which was that Unilver
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around. You know, for small percentages of the US Pentagon budget, we could provide food for everybody in our own country and around the world who doesn't have enough to eat. We could provide medicines that people need.
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essential integrity of the brand, the marketing, and how it's sold. So, you know, that actually worked pretty well for quite a while uh until uh you know, with the company Ben and Jerry's along with Unilver, along with the
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We could make it so that in the United States, the American dream is still a reality, that people could actually afford to buy a house, that child care doesn't break the bank, that medical debt doesn't
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with the values of Benaguries. C can we just sort of rewind and go back to sort of what does social mission have to do with ice cream? Where where did that come from and why was it knitted into
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put you into bankruptcy. It's just incredible to me that, and the other fact of the matter is that, you know, people in the United States, they have no desire to kill people in other countries that they've
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business has now become the strongest force in our society. You know, it used to be uh religion was originally the most strongest force and then it became nation states and today it's business. And the difference between today's most powerful
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never met. Nobody's doing anything to us. It's crazy. Ben and Jerry's has always been this slight conundrum, you know, that you managed to marry big business, a very successful business, that then sort of got into
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and and demonstrate that it's it's a myth that it's not possible for business to help to improve the quality of life in the society and make money at the same time. And how did you go about it? I mean, what what were the
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bed with corporate America through Unilever, yet you carried on your sense of social and political justice. I mean, have you now hit the wall that tells you these things are fundamentally incompatible?
Speaker A
Well, the first thing was to establish that mission statement. That social mission, writing it out in that form and and being um so specific about it came from uh an era in the early days of the company when there was a lot of conflict
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I do not think they're incompatible by any means. You know, I think the issue for Ben & Jerry's right now is that Ben & Jerry's has a particular social mission, which is as important to the
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The words the phrase socially responsible business did not exist. Uh, and the norm was, you know, this this this quote that's actually taken out of context from Milton Freriedman saying that the only legitimate purpose of of business is to maximize profit. And so
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company as a financial mission and our product mission to make the best ice cream possible.
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There there came a time when Ben & Jerry's was decided to come out with a chocolatecovered ice cream pop on a stick. You know, normally you'd put on the packaging, "Wow, you're about to eat the greatest chocolatecovered pop on a
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And you know, that was going quite well. You know, we got acquired by Unilever. Ben & Jerry's was a public company. I was Jerry and I were both opposed to the sale, but there
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peace through understanding activities between the people of the United states and the people of uh the Soviet Union.
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was nothing we could do to stop it based on SEC rules. And as a result, during those negotiations, there was a very unusual governance structure that was formed for Ben & Jerry's, which was that Unilever
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what we should do. Uh we should stick to our knitting. uh and uh we we shouldn't criticize the government. Eventually, we just decided to do it, call it a peace pop. We we actually got a lot of positive
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became the sole shareholder, but an independent board of directors, comprised at the beginning of former Ben & Jerry's directors, was established that has legal authority over the social mission of the brand, over the product quality, and over what's called the
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limiting your customer base or were you thinking no this is for everybody but we hope they'll also read the message on the side.
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essential integrity of the brand, the marketing, and how it's sold. So, you know, that actually worked pretty well for quite a while until, you know, with the company Ben and Jerry's along with Unilever, along with the
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that doesn't that doesn't happen. Um we weren't thinking about uh you know is this going to to limit our our customer base. I mean you know the re the norm for business is I don't want to offend anybody. I don't want to uh you know say
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independent board, all decided after years of research and discussion that Ben & Jerry's needed to stop selling ice cream in the West Bank of the occupied territories in Palestine because it was inconsistent
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the reality is that business, big business, is incredibly political. They uh determine who gets elected by campaign contributions. They determine our uh laws through lobbying.
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with the values of Ben & Jerry's. Can we just sort of rewind and go back to sort of what does social mission have to do with ice cream? Where did that come from and why was it knitted into
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rooftops about how, hey, we just paid this congressman so much money and we've got two lobbyists for every every every congressperson in uh in the building. Uh and that's just the weapons industry. Uh but and so the difference for Ben and
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the business from day one? Well, I mean, what does social mission have to do with anybody's life, all of our lives? You know, business is really just a combination of a bunch of people working together. As a matter of fact,
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self-interest. And and whose stances were they always going to be? I mean, was it just literally what you and you and Jerry thought or was there a more democratic approach to it within the company?
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business has now become the strongest force in our society. You know, it used to be religion was originally the strongest force, and then it became nation states, and today it's business. And the difference between today's most powerful
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uh and and we needed everybody bought in to the to the values and uh and we made uh a big effort to to do that for the company to uh you know kind of to imbue these values throughout the company and um
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force and those other two former most powerful forces is that they were all about improving the quality of life for people. But business has never had that as part of its remit, and so Ben & Jerry's sought to
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people would rather have better education for their kids than enough nuclear weapons to blow up the world 10 times over. Despite the fact that they say, "Oh, a nuclear war must cannot be won and must never be fought." And then
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change that and demonstrate that it's a myth that it's not possible for business to help to improve the quality of life in society and make money at the same time. And how did you go about it? I mean, what were the
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on a social issue that I had absolutely nothing to do with that I was joyfully surprised about that these guys did it on their own that the values have been integrated into the into of cloth into the fabric of the company.
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sort of the policies that you put in place from the beginning and how did they develop?
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as though corporate America is more cravenly bowing to this administration, making payments, making donations. Do you think things are genuinely different right now or or is it just this is the way it always worked?
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Well, the first thing was to establish that mission statement. That social mission, writing it out in that form and being so specific about it came from an era in the early days of the company when there was a lot of conflict
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shown uh a sense of social consciousness before came out with these beautiful statements and they you know they they they began these these diversity, equity and inclusion programs And during that time is when Ben & Jerry's, like I say,
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between management and the board and, you know, people having different opinions about whether business had a responsibility to help to improve the quality of life in the community. I mean, this was back in 1978.
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beautiful statements about racial justice, they just threw them out the window. Trump don't like it. Okay, we ain't going to do it. uh and and you know I've I've thought about that and and realized that you know if if you're
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The phrase socially responsible business did not exist. And the norm was, you know, this quote that's actually taken out of context from Milton Friedman saying that the only legitimate purpose of business is to maximize profit. And so
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current guy in the White House says DEI bad. Okay. DEI bad. Yeah. And that's what's happened.
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that was the predominant belief in the business community. You know, it's probably still the dominant belief, although it's not nearly as dominant as it used to be.
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you knew that this would end up happening? Yeah. I I actually thought it was going to happen sooner. Uh I mean for for quite a few years the relationship between Ben and Jerry's and Unilver worked pretty well. Um
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There came a time when Ben & Jerry's decided to come out with a chocolate-covered ice cream pop on a stick. You know, normally you'd put on the packaging, "Wow, you're about to eat the greatest chocolate-covered pop on a
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reversed that decision and uh sold the rights to Ben & Jerry's to an Israeli who had been our lency and he continued to sell Ben and Juries uh in the West Bank and and that's you know and that was a violation of the
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stick ever." And instead, we decided to use the packaging as media, and this was before the end of the Cold War, and call for the US government to spend 1% of its, what was called at the time, the defense budget on
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of started getting worse and worse. And before that time you know Ben and Juries would uh you know take these positions and and do a a post a social media post on it. The procedure was that they would
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peace through understanding activities between the people of the United States and the people of the Soviet Union.
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for it. you know, after the the West Bank incident, uh that that was no that became no longer a heads up, but it became approval and uh Unilver stopped approving, you know, posts on racial justice, on uh freedom of speech,
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And we were going to call it a peace pop. And it was incredibly controversial within the company that why should a business start talking about international affairs? That wasn't part of
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That's yeah that's my understanding. I mean I'm not you know I'm not operationally involved but that's what I'm told is that the yeah the company will prepare a post uh send it to unilver for what has now become approval and it gets disapproved.
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what we should do. We should stick to our knitting, and we shouldn't criticize the government. Eventually, we just decided to do it, call it a peace pop. We actually got a lot of positive
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Well, I I've been wondering about that. Uh it's it's one of the two. It's uh either it's just expediency that uh we we don't want to criticize the government that that that if Trump is saying DEI bad, we don't
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people liked it. You know, there was positive press about it. People felt good about it. And were you thinking, look, you know, our customers are going to be people who agree with our values, which is obviously
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agree with uh with Trump's uh with what Trump is doing, but uh it appears that they've decided as a as a business uh not to be critical at all of what he's doing and uh not even to allow this
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limiting your customer base, or were you thinking no, this is for everybody, but we hope they'll also read the message on the side?
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Unilver said, you know, said in response that it was never the responsibility of the independent board to um, you know, to to take strategic business decisions, you know, that they were effectively about, you know, message rather than business strategy. But I mean I guess
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Well, my understanding is that everybody's in favor of peace. You know, people have...
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conflict are you know these two very very um core areas of conflict in in American politics and world politics at the moment which is the diversity question that Trump has railed against. But but bigger than that really is Israel um and
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Gaza and you know that that is the you know the most controversial issue um that you can sort of dive into at the moment. So I mean what why is it so important to you and to Ben and Jerry's do you
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think to say what you think about both Israel's behavior in the West Bank and Gaza?
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Well, it's just about justice. Uh, you know, I think there's this quote from uh I believe it's Desmond Tutu that in you cannot be neutral in situations of injustice. If an elephant is standing on the tail of a mouse and you say that
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you're neutral, the mouse will not much appreciate your neutrality. I I mean I for me personally uh you know if I'm a if I become aware of a situation of injustice you can I mean you have three choices
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you can ignore it you can complain about it or you can do something about it. Uh I personally prefer to do something about it. I feel I feel better if I'm trying to do something about it. And I
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think that, you know, the reality is that we didn't uh we didn't come up with this social mission to sell ice cream, but amazingly enough uh as we take more and more of these stands, we sell more and more ice cream. Uh you
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know, a a lot of these stands are just basic human decency. No. Don't bomb women and children and people in Gaza.
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Uh don't destroy the entire uh infrastructure there. uh you know I mean I this idea that if there are people who uh have broken the law, people who have done you know horrible things, find them and bring them to justice.
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What right do you have to to kill all their family members and their neighbors because what well it's going to be hard to bring them to justice so we'll just bomb everybody.
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And I mean obviously both you and Jerry um come from Jewish roots. I don't know whether you were brought up Jewish in in any way yourself or or or what your Jewish heritage is precisely, but how how important is that in
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how you feel about what Israel is doing? So, uh I was bar mitzvid. I was brought up in a family that uh my parents would speak Yiddish to each other a lot. Uh I I you know so to get bar mitzvah you
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have to go to temple you know on a regular basis. Uh I didn't before I was you know before I was preparing for bar mitzvah I didn't really go and after I was b mitzvah I didn't go. So I mean I I
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regard myself as a secular Jew. I mean I I'm not I'm not particularly religious. You know, I'm into peace and love, which they they say that's that's a big part of religion.
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But do do you think being Jewish gives you a a bigger license to say what you think about Israel's behavior?
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Well, I I think that it's it's easier to to criticize Israel if if you're a Jew.
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you run into a lot of criticism from other Jews who believe that, you know, Jews should not criticize Israel. You know, the history of the Jews is that they were oppressed. They were slaves and uh and they were they were
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exterminated. The words never again are are a big part of of growing up Jewish.
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And you know, when I see uh the slaughter in in Gaza, I I came to understand that well, they didn't mean never again. They just meant never again for us. Uh it I I I mean I I think in large part
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it's because of that uh Jewish upbringing that I have so much sympathy for people that are oppressed and uh you know oppressed because of race, oppressed because of uh income. That's what my Jewish upbringing taught me and I I just kind of generalize it to
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everyone, not not just Jews. So So what do you think, you know, big business and corporate America should be doing? I mean, I guess you could just argue, look, that the the role of business is to maximize shareholder
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value and to be focused on profits. So they're doing the right thing. If even if they are just pandering to Trump and the MAGA agenda, what do you think they should be doing?
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On one level, business is a member of the community. They just happen to be a very big, powerful, wealthy member of the community. But members of a community have a responsibility to each other. And you know what business
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likes to do is to externalize its costs. So you know I'm a business. I'm just looking to maximize my profits. Uh you know what I'm doing ends up polluting you know the neighborhood, polluting the ocean, the seas, the skies, whatever.
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But that's that's not that's not my concern. Uh because I'm just here trying to uh make as much money as I can. and and so that leaves it to the rest of us to have to pay to clean up business's
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crap. That that ain't right. The general idea of business that we want to uh pay our people as little as possible. We want to provide as few benefits as possible.
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Uh and uh we want to we want to charge as much as possible. Uh and and we want to put in office uh people that will uh not regulate us and that will give us tax breaks.
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That that's destroying our society. uh you can't have the most powerful force in the society only thinking about itself and expect that you're going to have a decent society for everybody else.
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I suppose there's an argument that they could say, well, look, if if we did what you wanted, you know, it's all very well for a small business to say what it thinks and to be a campaigning organization, but we have tens of
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thousands of jobs in our hands. If we go up against the government, if we take on the Trump agenda, they can tie us up in the courts, they can damage us with planning decisions, they can they can take us apart, uh, if they really want
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to. And that's, you know, we have a bigger responsibility to a workforce, not just in America, but around the world. Um, what would be your answer to that?
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I would say that it's business that put Trump in power. uh you know look at who's been financing his ballrooms, his his inauguration. I don't I don't think that would happen.
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You know, I don't I don't believe it's reasonable. And I also believe that if you don't do it, it's appeasement. And our country is now on a march toward authoritarianism.
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Uh Trump has just announced that he's setting up uh his own federal militarized federal police force that's accountable only to him. Uh you know this is how fascists come into power and in terms of the powerful forces in our society
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business is the most powerful one. So you're you're either on the side of uh you know the dissolution of of of our democracy and or you're fighting for it.
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And I I would ver you know I'd venture to say that if you fight for it your customers will reward you. on the Palestine issue. You've decided to go ahead and make a watermelon ice cream through your own brand, not Ben &
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Jerry's. Um, just tell me about that and how it's going to work. You know, I felt like since since the company was prevented from making this ice cream, uh, you know, calling for a ceasefire, that I would make, uh, my own Ben's Best
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ice cream, which now that we more or less have a ceasefire, is is calling for uh, the US and Israel now that they've, you know, spent from their bottomless pit to to bomb and destroy this country.
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Let's find some more money from that bottomless pit to uh help Palestinians rebuild it as they want as they want it rebuilt.
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How hopeful are you that the pendulum will swing back your way? You know, um America is obviously not in the place politically or in business terms that you want it to be right now. And and lots of people are predicting, well, you
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know, they might stay in power some way. Trump may find a way to serve a third term. Um, democracy is in peril. Uh, you know, are you are you are you are you seeing the doom or are you seeing hope?
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I see hope. I don't believe that the majority of Americans want uh Trump's version of of America.
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it, you know, it it totally goes against the founding documents of our country, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence.
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Uh, you know, fairness, justice, equality. Uh, I I believe that, you know, the the huge majority of Americans are in favor of that. I I think that what happened was that you know both political parties are corrupt and are uh
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controlled by the moneyed interests and uh so they run the government to the benefit of the moneyed interests and you know half the population is is kind of struggling to get by because the system has essentially been rigged.
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So Trump is not helping. Trump is hurting that. And you know, but his rhetoric is, "Oh, I'm going to help you.
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I'm going to take care of you." And and I'm and I'm sure he's going to throw a few crumbs to the to the bottom people on the bottom part of the economic ladder. But in general, he's he's making
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it worse for the for the bottom half of the country. Um, and and that's not what people want. And uh I I believe we're going to see a a big change uh in in the 28 presidential election. And I'm I'm hoping that uh
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we'll we'll even see some decent changes in the in the 26 uh midterm. Well, Ben Cohen, thank you so much indeed for your time. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks for sharing your ways to change the world. You can watch all of
Speaker A
these interviews on the Channel 4 News YouTube channel. Until next time, bye-bye.
Topics:Ben CohenBen & Jerry'sUnileversocial missionGazafree speechcorporate activismIsrael-Palestine conflictbusiness ethicssocial justice
