Speaker A
Let’s start with a verdict. Are strategy guides online ruining competitive games? Wada-san was a card gamer back in his student days.
Discussion on whether online strategy guides ruin competitive games by reducing discovery and self-expression.
Key Takeaways
- Online strategy guides reduce the element of personal discovery in competitive games.
- Competitive games inherently pressure players to follow guides to remain competitive.
- Modern games attempt to maintain discovery through frequent updates and new content.
- Self-expression in competitive games is challenged by meta-driven playstyles.
- The nature of discovery in games has evolved but remains a crucial part of enjoyment.
What the video covers
- The video debates if online strategy guides diminish the fun of competitive games by removing the joy of discovery.
- Wada-san argues that readily available guides make competitive games less enjoyable, likening it to losing side dishes at a BBQ.
- Koshiyama-san counters that competitive games have always had strategy info available and that discovery now takes new forms.
- The hosts discuss how modern games try to compensate for reduced discovery by frequent updates and new content.
- They highlight the difference between single-player games where players can avoid guides and competitive games where not using guides leads to losing.
- The joy of self-expression through unique strategies and deck building is contrasted with the pressure to follow meta guides.
- The MDA framework is mentioned to explain how the joy of discovery is a key element in game enjoyment.
- They reflect on how the competitive environment has shifted to a race to follow the best strategies rather than explore independently.
- The conversation touches on how pre-constructed decks and constant meta shifts affect player creativity and enjoyment.
- The video concludes that while strategy guides change the nature of competition, some players still find thrill in discovery through guides.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Verdict on Strategy Guides
- 02:24Pre-Release Strategy Guides and Impact on Fun
- 04:08Historical Context of Competitive Gaming and Guides
- 05:42Modern Games and Compensating for Lost Discovery
- 07:50Self-Expression and Strategy in Competitive Play
- 09:49Meta and Deck Building Challenges
- 13:25Impact of Pre-Constructed Decks and Meta Shifts
- 17:40Balancing Competition, Discovery, and Enjoyment
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
They’ve become less fun. That’s harsh. Yeah. It really is. Seriously. That’s right. Yeah. Next, we have Koshiyama-san, who plays various competitive games and streams them.
Speaker A
I don’t really think that’s the case, though. Right. Aren't competitive games built on strategy guides anyway?
Speaker A
This is why different generations... Is winning the only thing on your mind? Well, I spent over a decade making card game videos and blogs, and I think about 200 of my pieces of content are still online. From that perspective,
Speaker A
overall, they’ve become less fun. Oh, really? Yeah. Then just quit. I know people will tell me to stop watching or playing, so I’ll say this: there are still parts that are fun.
Speaker A
Oh. So... You’ve already made up your mind, haven't you? But what I want to say is, it feels like the side dishes at a BBQ restaurant have gotten worse.
Speaker A
Yes. Ah, I see. See, the thing is, I already know. When the people who disagree say, "But it's a competition, so these elements are fun," and "It’s more evolved than before," they’re all talking about the meat at the BBQ place.
Speaker A
Yeah. But I’m saying that the "egg soup" you didn't even realize you liked —those sub-elements—are slowly being wiped out.
Speaker A
I see. Yeah. That’s what this episode is going to be about. Yes. Let’s get started.
Speaker A
Let’s add a quick supplement. For those who don’t play games much, you might be wondering what on earth we’re talking about. What we’re talking about here isn't whether looking up guides is "cheating" or anything like that. Right.
Speaker A
When a new card game is released, YouTubers immediately flock to it, uploading tons of videos, pumping out information about the strongest deck builds or which gear will get you a winning streak. Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah. There's this game that I really love, and its latest entry is about to be released. But even though it hasn't come out yet, the beta version is already flooded with streamers posting thumbnails saying "This weapon is insanely strong," so the battle has
Speaker A
already begun before the launch. Right. "The strongest this," "the best that"—walkthrough info is everywhere. It’s not just videos, either; strategy sites are already up before the game even releases, and within half a day of launch, every single piece of
Speaker A
gear is ranked by how strong it is. Because of that, the fun of figuring things out for yourself has diminished.
Speaker A
And here’s another key point: competitive games don't really offer much freedom for the future. What do you mean by that?
Speaker A
For example, in a game like Resident Evil that you play by yourself, you can choose not to look at a guide.
Speaker A
You can simply enjoy the process of figuring out how to defeat a zombie on your own. But competitive games are different. For instance, if the three of us decide to play a competitive game, and you and Koshiyama-san are looking
Speaker A
at guides but I’m not, I’m just going to get absolutely crushed. That's true, isn't it? So I think, "This isn't fun," and I end up looking at the guides too. Then everyone starts chasing the same info, thinking "If
Speaker A
he's looking, I should too." It turns into a battle of who can follow the guides best. Is this really what we wanted to play? It really is like that.
Speaker A
It is. It really is. That’s the premise, anyway. I’ve gone on a bit long, so how about you, Koshiyama-san, since you seem to be enjoying it just fine?
Speaker A
Well, for starters, I should mention that I don't think I’ve ever known an environment without walkthrough info.
Speaker A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the first time I really dove into a competitive game was Pokémon X and Y.
Speaker A
Yeah. By that time, the internet was already fully established, so I’ve only ever known an environment where guide info is always available from the start. So, what is a competitive game like in an era where there's no walkthrough info?
Speaker A
I see. What is that? About what year would the X and Y era have been?
Speaker A
I think it was around 2013. Ah, I see. I was about to say that maybe it wasn't that widespread when you were a kid, Koshiyama-san, but YouTube and such were already quite prevalent by then, weren't they?
Speaker A
Ah, if we're talking about when I was even younger, I definitely remember playing a ton of Mega Man Battle Network versus matches with my friends.
Speaker A
Back in elementary school. I remember that at the time, I played without ever looking at any strategy guides.
Speaker A
Yeah. Back then, didn't you try to figure out what was strong on your own?
Speaker A
Oh, yeah. I built my deck entirely based on my own ideas. Yeah. That’s the fun part. Of competitive games.
Speaker A
Whoa, I don't think so. You don't? Why? Um... So you disagree. Where do you find the fun in it then?
Speaker A
Broadly speaking, I think it's about discovery and self-expression. Yeah. I see. By discovery, I mean trying something out, like, "Actually, maybe this combination is strong." Oh, it wasn't.
Speaker A
Not strong after all. "Well, maybe this way," it's the joy of exploring things for yourself.
Speaker A
Right, right, right. So, in the world of game design, there's a well-known thing called the MDA framework.
Speaker A
Oh, there's a term for it. Computer scientists and game developers have classified the elements that people find enjoyable, and "the joy of discovery" is clearly included in that.
Speaker A
I think it's fair to say that the element of discovery, which is so essential to games, has decreased significantly. This framework includes several things, like the joy of narrative or the joy of challenge, so I can't say everything is covered, but
Speaker A
don't you get the feeling that some parts have been stripped away? I do think there's an aspect where the joy of discovery has diminished.
Speaker A
Right, right, right. But I feel like modern games are designed to compensate for that.
Speaker A
Classic competitive games—well, like Mega Man Battle Network—once they were released, there were no updates at all, right? I think modern competitive games are designed to have updates at least once a month, constantly creating new discoveries. Like new events being
Speaker A
released or new weapons being added, right? Yeah. So, all things considered, I wonder if the joy of discovering things for yourself really exists anymore.
Speaker A
I mean, can you really keep up with that kind of discovery pace? Hmm. Even when a new weapon is added, it’s immediately all over the strategy guides, isn't it? So the only people actually discovering things are the ones waiting in front of their screens
Speaker A
on launch day, ready to go. Ah, I see. After a few hours, you see people saying, "If you use it like this, it's strong." And then you see people on social media saying it's not actually that great, and you go, "Oh, really?"
Speaker A
Well, for me, when I look at a guide and learn that a character is top-tier now, I feel like I'm enjoying the thrill of discovery.
Speaker A
Ah. The discovery of, "Oh, I see," after reading the strategy info. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So you don't feel the need to look for it yourself?
Speaker A
Isn't that a hassle? Wait, for real? I mean, it's information you can find just by looking it up.
Speaker A
Yeah. Well, actually, I kind of get that. I do understand the point that the joy of discovery just changes form, since sometimes I look at guides and think, "Oh, wow, there's a strategy like that." Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
Okay, I'd like to touch on another point, though. Self-expression. For example, let's say you see yourself as a person with two sides to them.
Speaker A
Like, you're quiet at school, but you feel like you have a hidden aggressive side—kind of like a "chuunibyou" complex.
Speaker A
Right. You might just be imagining it, of course. But if you really believe that, you might think, "That's why I love playing as this werewolf." "I'll fight using a werewolf that looks like a normal human but turns powerful under a
Speaker A
full moon." So, I’d think about how to make a werewolf character fight effectively. In card games, I’d research which combinations were the strongest, expressing myself by perfecting that build. That was one of the things I enjoyed.
Speaker A
Oh, I strongly agree. Oh, abs
Speaker A
Yeah. And furthermore, some writer might say werewolves aren't even good and are useless for clearing the game, so you instantly find out that the character you're attached to isn't actually strong.
Speaker A
Ah, I see your point. Doesn't that kind of ruin the fun of self-expression? Oh, you think so? I don't really feel that way when I play Pokémon.
Speaker A
Wait, but don't you want to win with your favorite Pokémon, Koshiyama-san? Oh, I definitely want to win.
Speaker A
Yeah. And you can win. Some people build teams stacked with high-usage, meta-defining Pokémon, sure.
Speaker A
But surprisingly, even in the top ranks , I get the impression that people who use unexpected Pokémon are still getting in there. So, I don't really feel like that joy is being ruined.
Speaker A
Well, maybe the game design has something to do with it too. Yeah, that's true. I mean, it could just be that Pokémon has great game design. That’s true. That’s true, but it’s a bit different. I want to clarify that I don’t think strategy
Speaker A
guides solve everything at all. When I get into a game, I go all in—I even reached the top five nationwide in Aquarian Age Alternative.
Speaker A
That’s amazing. I’ve never heard of that game. You really got results. When I start getting hooked on something, I take it seriously.
Speaker A
So I understand that feeling, too. Basically, checking a strategy guide just gets you to the starting line, and since everyone else is doing the same, the real question is how to get ahead of them.
Speaker A
That’s where the true exploration begins. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’m aware there are circles where people research ways to use things differently than what the standard strategy guides suggest.
Speaker A
Yeah. Right. But that’s a way of enjoying the game to become competitive. Uh-huh. Trying to fight in a specific way as a result of self-expression or pursuit of knowledge is a bit different .
Speaker A
Isn't it a world where people who want to express themselves can just go ahead and do so?
Speaker A
That’s the thing. Right. You won't win if you do that. Oh, so you do want to win after all.
Speaker A
Yeah. I do want to win. I see. Yeah. The average skill level has just gotten too high.
Speaker A
A phenomenon occurs where someone who copies and pastes a strategy guide without thinking is stronger than you, even if you’ve spent half a day thinking it through.
Speaker A
Ah, yeah. Yeah. It’s just so disheartening. Yeah. Ah, I see. Back when I was in middle school, I had about three friends who were really into card games, and about ten others I played with. Back then, there were no
Speaker A
strategy guides to look at, so everyone just played using cards they liked or thought were strong.
Speaker A
Yeah. Like, "I really like dragons," for instance. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I was actually using a dragon deck, but then the "black ship" of the internet arrived. And naturally, the game balance shifted completely.
Speaker A
The three of us who played seriously were the strongest, but once everyone started looking up strategy guides, the playing field leveled out.
Speaker A
Then, the difference became whether or not you had the strongest cards— meaning the game turned into one where financial power dictated your strength.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Since the money middle schoolers have is limited, some couldn't afford those cards, or they only had two instead of the necessary four, while the rich kids had them all, and I had the experience of never being
Speaker A
able to win no matter how hard I tried. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone knows the same strategy, so the knowledge gap has effectively disappeared. " Do this in this situation and you'll be strong." The answer is already out there.
Speaker A
But it comes down to who has the cards and who doesn't, or who simply changed them. Those who didn't pull them fall behind.
Speaker A
Exactly, so the game has turned into one where the challenge is purely down to luck or how much money you have.
Speaker A
The real thrill used to be strategizing , thinking, "I want to win with this strong card, so I'll do this and that." But now the rules have changed into "If you have this card, you win." I see. Yeah, I definitely see that
Speaker A
happening. Yeah. I played Yu-Gi-Oh back in elementary school, and the kid with the strong cards was just stronger. Yeah. They were strong.
Speaker A
True. That era existed too. That I wouldn't know. Sorry. I only know Blue-Eyes White Dragon and Dark Magician. Ah.
Speaker A
And Goyo Guardian, right? It got taken. Like, Trishula is strong. Trish is strong. Three copies is crazy.
Speaker A
I feel like this conversation is getting a bit muddy; I think we need to separate the issue of information volume from the issue of money. Well, that makes sense. That's right.
Speaker A
I think these two axes can be replaced by "past vs. present" or "adult vs.
Speaker A
child," but honestly, I think analog card games are pretty much a dying breed. Yeah.
Speaker A
Don't say that. I don't think a game where strength is determined by money can really stay popular anymore. Well, there are definitely still card games fighting against that trend. Back in the day, there were "pre-constructed" decks, where if you bought one, you could at
Speaker A
least play the game, but when I was in elementary school, they were mostly terrible.
Speaker A
Right. They weren't even real decks; they were basically just bundles meant for explaining the rules.
Speaker A
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, or maybe there was just one strong card in the set, and you’d buy three boxes to get a playset of three, but these days, pre-constructed decks are incredibly strong. They’re basically tournament-ready builds right out of
Speaker A
the box, so the game design, I have to admit, is definitely getting better. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Speaker A
But the thing is, because it's become so competitive, it’s not really about self-expression or mastery anymore.
Speaker A
Exactly, exactly. "Buy this deck and you'll win." No, that’s not what it’s about. That’s not what we’re looking for. Yeah. Like, "Here are three of the strongest cards included from the start." That just feels wrong.
Speaker A
Right, right, exactly. Part of the fun used to be trading with friends to get those strong cards, or meeting strangers at tournaments to trade with them.
Speaker A
Yeah. That’s true. Trying to figure out if the card they’re offering is worth the one you’re putting up, and weighing the trade.
Speaker A
Yeah. Or sometimes not even knowing which one is actually stronger. And there were regional differences, too.
Speaker A
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Like, you know, " Apparently, dragons are really strong in Aomori.""No way, that's ridiculous." Right, right, exactly. " Vampires are popular in Hokkaido, though," and then you’d meet at nationals and realize, "Wait, were they actually right about that?""See? Our
Speaker A
region was right!" Those were the days. It was fun. Yeah. Now, all the strategy guides and meta info are out within 2-3 days.
Speaker A
Those times were definitely more interesting. Yeah. I see. I want to add one more counterpoint.
Speaker A
Most popular games these days have a shifting meta even without official interference, because of how info spreads, you know?
Speaker A
Suppose you have Rock-type, Scissors-type, and Paper-type monsters. They each have unique abilities, and if the current meta makes Rock really strong, Rock-types will suddenly skyrocket in popularity. Yeah. Once this hits a certain point, there are so many Rocks that people think, "Wouldn't
Speaker A
a Paper deck have a higher win rate?" So, without the developers changing anything, the environment gradually shifts toward Paper on its own. I think there are a lot of games where a cycle happens, like once this gets popular,
Speaker A
then that gets popular, and eventually the first thing comes back around. The fun of constantly chasing the meta and discovering what’s strong right now is definitely a well-designed part of many games today.
Speaker A
Yeah. Well, that’s... I agree with that. I think so, too. Well, that’s true, but what we're talking about here is what’s called the "metagame." It’s looking at the game from a bird's-eye view to see what’s trending. I don’t think
Speaker A
it’s just about looking up guides, but isn't that exactly what chasing strategy information is all about right now? " Looks like Rock is trending.""It's Paper." No, people are saying the usage rates have changed over the last few days,
Speaker A
and they check the data and stats, saying, "It went from 52%yesterday to 54%, so this must be a sign that Scissors is getting popular." That’s not what I want to do. Is that not it?
Speaker A
No, that’s not the kind of play I’m looking for. Right. I kind of feel like I want to do that market research myself, though.
Speaker A
Yeah. Oh, really? Uh, Sorry. I don’t know that way of enjoying games, so I really don’t get it.
Speaker A
Well, I kind of get it, in a way. When I was in junior high, I played Duel Masters all the time, and the game balance back then was really good.
Speaker A
There were lots of strong decks. Oh. There were like ten different varieties or so, yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah. But as for Yu-Gi-Oh, it’s almost one-dimensional. It’s the kind of game where if you don’t have the monsters we were talking about earlier, you can't even step into the ring.
Speaker A
Building a game balance feels incredibly important. Listening to you, I realized that for a game like Duel Masters, it might be crucial to design it so that even among the ten or so strategies available, there's distinct personality and enough depth for
Speaker A
players to keep exploring, even within categorized archetypes. Yeah. So, the point is that some of these issues can be overcome through clever game design, right? Well, yeah, but my argument remains that this is ultimately about competitive fun, which
Speaker A
is different from the joy of exploration and self-expression. Yes. Yes. And something I really regret is that in Duel Masters, there was a card I absolutely loved called Al-Gros Crusos.
Speaker A
On some strategy sites, its card rating was like 1.5. Out of what, ten? Yeah, like out of ten. It basically said, "This is no time to be using a card like this." It basically said you can't win if you use this, which made
Speaker A
me so sad that I ended up trading it away, and I regret that so much now.
Speaker A
Thinking, "My beloved Crusos..." I loved it, but then I had that moment where I decided I didn't need it.
Speaker A
Exactly, exactly. Even though I loved it, the market rejected it, so I just jumped on the bandwagon and rejected it too, which I really regret.
Speaker A
Well, at that time, you were choosing winning over what you personally liked, weren't you?
Speaker A
But that’s what society said! When society demands it like that, you end up like Wada-san. This, this phenomenon right here. You end up like this. You change. " I wasn't like this before." And the question is, don't all these
Speaker A
people gather and end up doing things they don't actually want to do? I get that. But, if you stop playing the game ...
Speaker A
No, no, no, no, you end up quitting. No, that's not it. Right. I want to play the game.
Speaker A
No, see, it would be simple if the people who find it fun kept playing and the people who don't just left. But, it's more like, "I really want to use my favorite card..." Yeah. "...
Speaker A
but I want to win," and things like that. And especially in the case of online games...
Speaker A
You know how there are login bonuses, or systems where using certain cards gets you points you can exchange for cards or outfits? So, people end up doing things they don't really want to do just to meet a quota or unlock an
Speaker A
achievement, and it feels like the whole system is just spinning on that. It’s become a world where everyone plays with a grimace, saying they don't really want to be doing this, and maybe only 20%of people are actually having
Speaker A
fun. That’s true. What kind of world is this? Is this the kind of game we wanted? A world where 80%of people are saying "this isn't what I wanted," but still playing so they don't miss a login bonus.
Speaker A
It is. Is this the world? It is. I see. You guys have it rough.
Speaker A
Well, I think I only feel that way because I’ve experienced that kind of fun in the past. If you experienced that world once, Yama-san, I think you’d understand the fun in it. No.
Speaker A
But, you know, when I was playing Mega Man Battle Network against my friends, I remember spending an insane amount of time building my own deck. Yeah. But I don't feel like doing that now, not really.
Speaker A
Oh, why is that? Because I’m playing to win. That’s straightforward. Well, one thing comes to mind—sorry to keep using this as an example—but in the Yu-Gi-Oh! card game, there was a time when the "Final Countdown" deck was popular.
Speaker A
Basically, once you play this card, you just go through your turn and your opponent's turn, and after 20 turns, you win.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. So, you activate it and engage in what’s called "stalling," where you stop your opponent from attacking.
Speaker A
Yeah. Right. Right. In short, you only need to focus on defending. Right. And when that happens, all the opponent does is just draw a card, but they can't attack, so they end their turn. Draw a card, end their turn.
Speaker A
There’s a deck that just drags on like that for a long time. Is that fun?
Speaker A
Yeah. I don't think it's fun at all. Yeah. Exactly. So, isn't that just what it means to play to win?
Speaker A
I mean, if you can win by doing that, why wouldn't you? Right. But it turns out that playing optimally to win just isn't very fun for either side.
Speaker A
You can actually win with that? You really can. Then I think the game design is poor.
Speaker A
True. That's true. Yeah. Because if that gives you a win rate over 50%, then the whole meta just revolves around that.
Speaker A
Yes. Yeah. I'd think the game would just die at that point. Yeah. But somehow, Yu-Gi-Oh! keeps going.
Speaker A
It really does. It keeps going. That's amazing. It survives even with that environment. But Yu-Gi-Oh! is truly strange; unlike Duel Masters, the meta tends to get pretty lopsided. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
You get these states where one deck is just so strong that nothing else can win, and even in world championship finals, you often see "mirror matches" where both players have almost identical deck builds.
Speaker A
Oh, really? And yet, Yu-Gi-Oh! remains popular. Right. And I like it, too. It's weird, but I like it too.
Speaker A
Well, if you want to enjoy the thrill of discovery, maybe you should just stop playing Yu-Gi-Oh!.
Speaker A
As a competitive sport, though, it's quite interesting. Oh, is it? Because the mirror matches are...
Speaker A
Yeah. Since you're using the same cards, you can predict what the opponent will do, then figure out how to counter that, and how to counter the counter, so it's quite interesting as a competition. I understand that kind of fun better than
Speaker A
anyone, but if you want to enjoy the game in a different way, you probably shouldn't be playing Yu-Gi-Oh!.That's what it sounds like.
Speaker A
Yes. No, I wanted to play it. I loved it. Exactly, exactly. I loved it.
Speaker A
I see. Well, that's exactly why I used that analogy at the beginning. I would go to a yakiniku restaurant, and while saying the meat was delicious, I was also really enjoying the egg soup , the ice cream, and the cold noodles.
Speaker A
But then the restaurant decided, "We're a yakiniku place, so we'll double down on the meat," adding more and more meat while cutting all the side dishes.
Speaker A
Kavada-san and I are saying that since it's a yakiniku restaurant, you only need meat, and doesn't that feel a bit wrong? No, no, no, since it’s yakiniku, isn’t it correct that it should just be meat? It’s a competitive game. It’s like a
Speaker A
competitive game. Yes. Yes. That’s what you’re trying to make me say. That’s not it.
Speaker A
No, it is. I want to eat rice, too. Look, I still haven't forgiven Gyu-Kaku for getting rid of their egg-over-rice.
Speaker A
Right, right, right, that’s exactly it. That’s it. That may be true, but ... So, while we call it a competitive game , it’s not like you were only enjoying the competition itself.
Speaker A
Ultimately, using the current example, it just means there are still other yakiniku places that serve good egg-over-rice.
Speaker A
Is that so? No, is that really true? Eh? Well, I suppose the joy of discovery that you two are talking about might be gone.
Speaker A
Yeah. I think I play a fair amount of games, including minor card games and apps, but regardless, I think they're all affected by this strategy information.
Speaker A
That's true. Yeah. Plus, niche ones like WCCF or Code of Joker end up shutting down their services so quickly.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, some places are trying to counter this; like with Code of Joker, they had a system where you’d get a bonus for using cards with low usage rates to try and balance things out. I mean, there were ways to
Speaker A
hack that too, but they were at least trying. But places like that end up shutting down anyway, so they don't last, which means it didn't really work out. The countermeasures.
Speaker A
If you want to fight on a national level, you have no choice but to give up that kind of enjoyment.
Speaker A
Yeah. Huh, no counter-argument? Look, I agree with that. But you know, it’s the same even if you go to a physical store.
Speaker A
Yeah. Ah, that’s true. Right, right. Online competitive games end up like that, don't they? I, well, I understand that. I mean, you’re competing against the whole world. So even if you try to go to a small social event, everything is still affected by
Speaker A
that. Yeah. Yeah. The place where we could play the way we wanted doesn't exist in this world anymore.
Speaker A
You think so? Yeah. I feel like you could just buy a board game with no strategy guides out there and play it only with close friends.
Speaker A
Well, yeah. That's true, but. No. I want to do that with Yu-Gi-Oh. I want to do that with Duel Masters.
Speaker A
Then Yu-Gi-Oh and Duel Masters are no longer those kinds of games. Just give up.
Speaker A
No, but look, Wait, actually, I’m the kind of person who tries that with more obscure games. But if it’s fun, it gets popular, and the strategies spread.
Speaker A
Ah, that’s true. Exactly. It really is. So, it ends up being the same thing.
Speaker A
I think that applies not just to card games, but to things like Werewolf too.
Speaker A
Yeah. Oh. Yeah, yeah. Maybe ten-something years ago, when it started getting popular, nobody knew how to be strong, so I think everyone was just playing it simply at parties, but once the optimal strategy was discovered, people who didn't follow it
Speaker A
started to look like they didn't get the vibe. You know that phenomenon where it’s no longer playable as a party game?
Speaker A
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And there's that "not getting the vibe" aspect, too. If you haven't looked up the strategies, you can't win , so people think you're no fun to play with.
Speaker A
From the opponent's side, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can't have those intense, head-to-head battles anymore. If you haven't looked up the strategies. Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah. And with team games, people say stuff like, "That guy is dragging us down." Exactly. That's certainly not good manners. Using a weak character in a team game is a bit...
Speaker A
Yeah. So, looking up strategies and using strong characters has basically become a matter of etiquette.
Speaker A
It’s just not fun. Yeah. Oh, I see. It feels like the era of playing competitive games for reasons other than winning is over.
Speaker A
Don't say it's over. Isn't that what we're here to talk about? Let's keep going. Let's keep going.
Speaker A
Yeah. Ah, so that kind of fun you two are talking about is gone. Ah, no, that's right. Exactly. He admitted it. I admit it. I have no choice but to admit it. So.
Speaker A
Yeah. Look, the fun between us two is gone, so just give up on that. I don't think it's completely gone, though.
Speaker A
For example, there's a famous story in Yu-Gi-Oh about a player called Trike Kudo. At the time, this guy found the only card that could beat a card that everyone said was unbeatable and essential, which was called "Trice," and by using that card, he was actually
Speaker A
able to win. Yeah. So even in the super competitive scene, there should still be room to say, " Maybe we should be using this card instead." That.
Speaker A
Ah, right, right, right. Thinking in your own way. So, in extreme terms, like in Shogi.
Speaker A
If you really dig deep, that world probably still exists, but we just don't have the time to keep chasing it anymore.
Speaker A
Yeah. Ah, is that so? Yeah. I see. I mean, when I was in junior high, I'd wake up, check my deck list, then think about deck builds while I was in class.
Speaker A
I did that too. Like, should I run two copies or three? Exactly. I’d agonize over what to put in that last slot, then start playing after school, and once I got home, I’d analyze the results to refine my deck further;
Speaker A
that’s how I spent my days back then, but now... But these days, pro players are at it from morning till night, so there’s no way we can keep up. Yeah. Top players are just bouncing ideas off each other constantly. No way we can
Speaker A
beat that. Oh, but I might actually be playing Pokémon with that same level of passion right now.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I'm constantly thinking about what card no one has noticed yet that could really counter the current meta. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah. It repeats, so that kind of fun is still there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right, now.
Speaker A
When it comes to Pokémon, it's that thing, right? In the finals of the Pokémon WCS 2014 Double Battle division, amidst a clash of incredibly powerful pseudo-legendary Pokémon, the state of the field featured Tyranitar, Salamence, Garchomp, and Pachirisu.
Speaker A
Pachirisu sounds weak. Pachirisu. It's like the Pikachu slot, but... And it actually won the championship.
Speaker A
Wow. So Pachirisu won it. Exactly. There was one person who realized that Pachirisu could actually counter Salamence.
Speaker A
Right. Yeah. Because it could hit its weakness. Exactly. I think that's the kind of fun you can have.
Speaker A
And I think that's a joy that will always remain. Ah, in well-designed games, that's a joy that lasts forever.
Speaker A
Yeah. Well, since top-tier players are always trying to outsmart each other, that competitiveness is always there.
Speaker A
That's true. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really cool. Finding something that no one else had discovered before is truly impressive.
Speaker A
Back when information wasn't widespread , that kind of thing happened even when playing with neighbors, right?
Speaker A
Right. Yeah. It's sad that the days of saying "Huh, what card is that?" while playing with friends are gone. I want to clarify: you two were kids when you enjoyed games like that, right?
Speaker A
Yeah. Were the adults at that time in the same situation? It was different from now.
Speaker A
Yeah. Information didn't circulate as thoroughly. If you lived near a famous shop, I feel like it was just as intense as it is today. Card shops were rare to begin with, weren't they? But as things got more serious, you'd have card specialty
Speaker A
stores, and you could get all kinds of information by going there. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Well, it certainly seems slower than getting info on the internet, but I feel like it would end up the same as now after two or three
Speaker A
weeks. No, that's not right. It wasn't that fast. Since it's a good time, let's introduce it. There’s some truth to that; strategy information was circulating well before the internet became this widespread.
Speaker A
There was word of mouth, magazines, and things like strategy guides were being released. Even if it wasn’t that common yet, the internet had existed since the 90s, so gaps in knowledge were definitely forming from people looking at forums or finding strategy
Speaker A
info online. Well, one turning point was around 2005, when video sites started to appear.
Speaker A
It became possible to see, in a much clearer way, how you’re supposed to play a game. Yeah.
Speaker A
But back then, it wasn't easy to watch, and there weren't many videos, so it was mostly for those in the know, plus a lot of the info was wrong, so you still had to think for yourself. Then, around 2010, smartphones started to
Speaker A
spread, and suddenly everyone could easily share and receive information, leading to optimal solutions popping up everywhere. And the information flowing around stopped being so wrong. It’s progressed even further, and now we’re using things like AI to analyze games. Yeah.
Speaker A
So, by having AI battle AI, data comes out saying, "we ran tens of thousands of simulations and this side was stronger," and at that point, you’re never going to win by thinking on your own.
Speaker A
Ah, that’s true. I actually have AI do environmental analysis for me sometimes. Hey! People like you are the reason it’s becoming less fun, right?
Speaker A
No, it’s fun. When you take it that far. Well, uh, Exactly, so if you want to enjoy it in this day and age, that’s really the only way to do it.
Speaker A
And you know, there are even paid tools you can use. It’s not just official stuff; there are tools made by fans to analyze game stats. For 500 yen a month , you can see character usage rates and win percentages. High-level players pay
Speaker A
for that to compare graphs with their results and study the game, you know? That’s just work. Yeah. Seriously.
Speaker A
It's a job. For real. Well, yeah, that’s true. Like, were we wanting to use AI or study charts? Was that why we wanted to play? I thought we wanted to play games .
Speaker A
Ah. We just wanted to play a card game. I see. Well, if you guys feel like that’s work, then modern games probably aren't for you.
Speaker A
Yeah. It’s an ugly truth we've been trying to avoid, but are you saying the card games we loved simply don't exist anymore?
Speaker A
They don't. Yeah. I don't think they do . Isn't that just how we played back when information wasn't so easy to come by?
Speaker A
Definitely. Ah, that’s true. That way of enjoying games is a relic of the past. Man.
Speaker A
You don't have to put it that way. Well, I think it's true, though. Well.
Speaker A
Well, I really do think so. So, I guess you guys have no choice but to live the rest of your lives saying " the good old days were better." Become old-timers, then.
Speaker A
Guess so. Actually, there are movements trying to fix that, you know. For example, in Magic: The Gathering, a playstyle that's quite different from what we're used to has become popular over the last few years.
Speaker A
Yeah. Speaking of Magic: The Gathering, it's the world's first card game, and with high-stakes world tournaments, it’s always had a strong competitive side.
Speaker A
But with the rise of the internet, it became more and more competitive, which I suppose made it less fun for some. So , within some fan communities, different ways of playing started to emerge. Yeah.
Speaker A
Like how you can only have one copy of each card, even if you’re usually allowed to include more.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Instead of two people playing, they started gathering four people to play it like a party game.
Speaker A
That's how things started to be done. At first, it was just unofficial, started by fans on their own, but it kept growing and growing, and now there are actually more people playing this way than in the competitive style
Speaker A
originally intended by the official game. Whoa, that's amazing. Even the market prices of the cards fluctuate based on that way of playing.
Speaker A
Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the official side couldn't ignore it anymore, so they even started releasing sets designed with that playstyle in mind.
Speaker A
Huh. And once that happens, people who care about win rates emerge within that playstyle, making things complicated, so they even started creating groups, saying, "If you want to focus on win rates, play on this side of the event."
Speaker A
"If you don't, please gather on the left side." They've started separating those people from those who just want to enjoy the communication and self-expression. Yeah.
Speaker A
So, it's not just that Wada-san and I are complaining; it's a phenomenon where people who are dissatisfied are starting to take action globally.
Speaker A
Yeah. Ah, Does the way of enjoying it that you two were advocating exist within those rules?
Speaker A
Somewhat? Somewhat? Somewhat? No, I think it's actually quite doable. Oh, is that so? I personally find it a bit lacking in some areas, though.
Speaker A
Ah, Because you can't just draw a clear line between the groups. Even if you say, "If you care about win rates, go to this group," and "If you don't, go over there," there's a gradient between people who aren't purely obsessed with
Speaker A
winning but still want to win a little, and people who just want to use the cards they love, so when they play together, a difference in enthusiasm can occur. Yeah. Yeah. Also, because it's a way of playing that imposes
Speaker A
various restrictions to prevent overly strong combos from happening, It’s not just about winning, but some people find it stifling that they can’t play with the specific combinations they’ve come up with. So , while things have changed, it doesn’t really feel like a complete
Speaker A
solution at this point. I see. Listening to you, I feel like the only way left for people like me or Kataya-san is to create our own local house rules to enjoy the game.
Speaker A
In the Yu-Gi-Oh! card game, there’s an unofficial format called "04 Format" where you play using only the card pool from 2004 with pre-set limitations.
Speaker A
So, essentially playing with that old set of cards. Exactly. That’s right. Kataya-san and I were discussing it recently, debating whether or not Pot of Greed should be banned in that 04 format.
Speaker A
Wait, Pot of Greed? Are you serious? Yeah, exactly. That’s amazing, absolutely amazing. Yeah. By tweaking the rules little by little ourselves—like deciding which cards are strongest under these conditions— I think we can at least find some satisfaction.
Speaker A
Yeah. Exactly. I get that. We really want to play with a bigger community, though. I know.
Speaker A
Right. And even then, once you limit it , there’s always that mindset of " this one is stronger." It brings in that competitive drive, which feels a bit different from how we used to play back in the day.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah, that’s when it feels like it’s just not quite satisfying enough . I feel the same way about playing with cards you get at random. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker A
Like in Pokémon cards, there are formats like Draft or Sealed where you open packs without knowing what’s inside and build a deck on the spot.
Speaker A
You have no idea what you're getting. It’s like making a meal out of a mystery pot—since there are no guides saying "this combo is the strongest," you’re forced to think for yourself.
Speaker A
But there is strategy info out there on how to make the perfect "mystery stew," and since you think about how to fight with the cards you happened to pull, it's a bit different. Just like Wada-san said. It’s quite different
Speaker A
from saying "I like dragons, so I want to use dragons," you know? Yeah. It’s close, but it’s just not quite the same, is it?
Speaker A
That’s true. If you really want to play in that kind of environment, you’ll just have to destroy the internet.
Speaker A
Shall we go around blowing things up? There’s no choice but to break the internet.
Speaker A
We’ll have to cut all the undersea cables. And since satellite communication is really booming these days, we'd have to launch missiles and shoot all the satellites down too.
Speaker A
Only then will the environment you desire finally be built. Oh, but Kaiba Corporation had satellites and things, didn't they?
Speaker A
Oh, that's true. Like the Satellite Cannon. So, we get strong at dueling, steal the satellites...
Speaker A
Yeah. Exactly, exactly. Let’s take control of it all. That’s way too extreme of an idea.
Speaker A
Well, that world is one where you have to move your car out of the way to duel , and specialized duel bikes are running around, so maybe that's the kind of world we need.
Speaker A
I guess that’s what we need. So, today we’ve been talking about whether strategy info on the internet is making competitive games boring. The conclusion is that, well, everyone agrees it has become boring. My take got a little milder, though.
Speaker A
No, but just to add, there is definitely still a joy to be found in playing card games. I still touch cards from time to time, after all.
Speaker A
Yeah, yeah. But those innocent versions of ourselves from back then are gone. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker A
I think that way of enjoying the game is gone. It’s just not the mainstream way of enjoying it anymore.
Speaker A
That’s how I feel. Yeah. I mean, if I were to start a new card game, I’d probably start by looking at the top decks from that year's national or world championships.
Speaker A
Yeah. You end up looking, don't you? In the end. Yeah. Because that’s the most fun part now.
Speaker A
True. Plus, you can’t win otherwise. You really have to look. Yeah. Otherwise, you can't even get on the stage.
Speaker A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s become such a cutthroat world. It really has. In popular games like Pokémon, the environment allows you to take a super-strong team of six, swap in one of your personal favorites, and test if you can still win, so I think
Speaker A
you can enjoy it in a very modern way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Game designers are amazing, aren't they?
Speaker A
Yeah. By the way, our sponsor Cybozu also seems to be involved in competitive gaming from various angles.
Speaker A
Cybozu develops software that lets you create apps for office use, but... Things like Kintone, right?
Speaker A
Apparently, Kintone is even used for tracking competitive game stats. Oh, really? It's not like Cybozu officially recommends it, but since it has so many features, people just figured out how to use it that way on their own— compiling all sorts of data that's
Speaker A
really meant for work, but using it to track which cards are strong or what a character's win rate is. I found that out when I looked it up. Like an enemy to us. Exactly. I kind of thought, "
Speaker A
That's just work." Yeah, I mean, it literally is work. People are using business tools to conduct their research.
Speaker A
Yeah. Ah. When I first started getting into competitive games, that was already becoming the norm, so I've always just played thinking that's how competitive games work.
Speaker A
Yeah. It wasn't always like that, you know. That is true. Oh, my bad. Meanwhile, Cybozu apparently released a card game—a standalone, one-time purchase kind of game. It's called " What's Important to You?(Selfish Cards) ," released by the Cybozu Teamwork
Speaker A
Research Institute. Oh, that actually sounds interesting. I didn't know Cybozu did that kind of work; I'm actually more curious about that now.
Speaker A
It’s a standalone game designed to let you express your true feelings and think about your values through gameplay. I wonder which set of values is the strongest? Is there a game for that? No, no, that's not it.
Speaker A
It's like a party game, right? My apologies. My apologies. Well, it seems like they created a game like this with the idea that they really want people to align their values and engage in dialogue with each other.
Speaker A
Exactly. Their corporate philosophy is consistent. Yeah. I wonder if it's fun? Well, shall we give it a try? Shall we try it?
Speaker A
Yeah. Let's make it the last channel, and I'll play it sometime. True. It's tough to know how to react if it turns out to be boring.
Speaker A
If I have the chance. I'll play it if I have the chance. Let's wrap things up for this time. Do you all think that competitive games are becoming less fun because of online guides? Yeah.
Speaker A
Please let us know your thoughts in the comments. Alright, thank you very much. Thank you very much.
Topics:competitive gamesstrategy guidesgame discoveryself-expressiongame metacard gamesgame updatesgaming communitygame designMDA framework
