Speaker A
Um, it's a great uh honor for me today. I'm introducing a dear friend to our country and in particular to our academic community here at the Catholic Ukrainian University. Kristoff Trevski calls himself a practitioner of ideas.
Kshysztof Czyżewski, a cultural practitioner, argues for a new counterculture that returns culture to the center of social life, critiquing festivalization and soft power in Europe's culture wars.
Key Takeaways
- Culture must move from the margins into the center of responses to social and civilizational crises.
- Festivalization of culture produces short-lived spectacle; sustained, cultivated grassroots work is needed.
- Culture is an arena of soft power and must be taken seriously by democratic societies in the face of authoritarian influence.
- A new counterculture should combine resistance to hostility with renewal of solidarity, spirituality, and local belonging.
- Small, long-term community initiatives can matter as much as large public events.
What the video covers
- Czyżewski introduces himself as a practitioner of ideas, emphasizing culture as sustained action, solidarity, and community building rather than theory alone.
- He critiques European cultural spending, noting that over 80% of funds go to festivals and big events, leaving 'white elephant' institutions empty after the events end.
- He draws on his experience as artistic director of the European Capital of Culture to illustrate how festivalization hampers lasting cultural development.
- He argues culture is a front in the Russia-Ukraine conflict and a site of soft power competition with authoritarian regimes, which democratic liberals undervalue.
- He proposes a counterculture that opposes not only external enemies but also consumerism, spiritual emptiness, and the loss of deep human experience.
- He presents the idea of 'small centers of the world' as community hubs for deepening belonging, solidarity, and ecological awareness.
- He discusses long-term cultural work (five to seven year programs) versus short-term festivals, and the challenge of measuring cultural impact.
- He reflects on memory, historical truth, and the danger of forgetting atrocities, referencing Santayana's warning about repetition.
- He addresses the risk of culture animators becoming remote experts and losing connection to local community work.
- He frames Europe as a shared cultural belonging rather than a purely political or economic project.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Welcome
- 01:00Culture as Practice and the Need for a New Counterculture
- 06:00Festivalization of Culture and the European Capital of Culture
- 12:00Culture War, Soft Power, and the Russia-Ukraine Front
- 18:00Consumerism, Spirituality, and Small Centers of the World
- 30:00Long-Term Cultural Work and Measuring Impact
- 45:00Memory, Truth, and Europe as Common Culture
- 55:00Closing Reflections and Q&A
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
This phrase perfectly captures his essence. For him, culture is never just theory. Its action long duration deep solidarity meeting with the other gift exchange bridge building utopia practice together with his likeminded people. He tirelessly embodies these ideas in his
Speaker A
life project, a small center of the world in Si on the Polish Lithuanian border, but also in many, many other places in the world, wounded by hostity, city for hope, and ready to create a space of intellectual dialogue, intercultural
Speaker A
dialogue, and community building. Today he offer us deeply argent reflections. We live in era of culture wars. They are deepening social polarization and raising the alarming street of neofascism.
Speaker A
This bring us brings us to a crucial question. Can a new counterculture be the answer? And what should its philosophy and practice be? Please join me warmly welcoming our wonderful friendes.
Speaker A
[applause] I'm really honored to be with you here in Riv during this special time. I would do all my efforts to be as long as possible with you. From here I am going to to Kief for Yala European strategy
Speaker A
meeting and for the first time I think I will speak about culture as a relevant factor for the situation in Ukraine and in Europe in general [snorts] and this is I'm mentioning that because this will be part of my topic of today's lecture
Speaker A
which will be at from the beginning very naive and general. So I believe that we should do all our efforts to include culture into the mainstream activities facing the crisis [clears throat] and problems of contemporary world and you
Speaker A
may think so what is new in that? Yeah, we we are cultural people. We usually uh understand how important it is.
Speaker A
But more or less uh we also see um kind of marginalization or kind of uh uh putting culture as something special, autonomous but far away from the main problems. and first of all solutions we can think about in the crisis uh
Speaker A
situation. So for me and this is the first thing when I think about the new counterculture my the question is how to bring back culture into the center of uh uh our uh world and you may claim we may claim that it is a guild of
Speaker A
politicians or you know business people who don't understand culture but my point would be more about our own uh culture. people guilt or responsibility for such situation what we can do to change the position of culture in in the
Speaker A
world uh and that's how I understand we need uh a new counterculture because if not counterculture if only culture I think this mainstream culture is is the problem that it became became uh part of the problem uh not not being
Speaker A
involved in social civilizational change in our world. So we have a lot of culture events. We we have thousands of culture festivals uh in each of our cities, countries. When you see when you sing about Europe in general,
Speaker A
I was for several years working with European Culture Foundation in Amsterdam and we did a research about how do we spend in Europe money for culture.
Speaker A
Believe or not, [clears throat] more than 80% of this spending goes to the festivals and to the big events. That's what kind of culture we have. In fact, a huge festivity and we have fun. Yes, the war is going
Speaker A
on in Ukraine. Uh we have browning Europe. We have more and more problems, walls, conflicts and we have a lot of festivals and and events and how this circus of culture is usually organized in Europe and that's part of the problem for me.
Speaker A
You know, I was several times artistic director of the biggest European culture program which is called European Capital of Culture.
Speaker A
And my intention was to transform this huge festival for one year, you know, but it is like six years of preparations, you know, spending a lot of money for cultural development and so on and so on. And at the end you
Speaker A
have the year of uh European culture capital uh special events and usually this a huge festival or the constellation of hundreds of festivals.
Speaker A
And believe me it was very difficult to change this pattern from from festivalization of of this event to something what would be more cultivar kind of cultivare. So we cultivate on the daily basis some spiritual cultural work in the ground in the place in the
Speaker A
community in our environment and why it is so difficult. Why uh we have this uh paradox you know that from one side you have we have massive events of culture and with good intention and some of them I mean some festivals are very
Speaker A
very good and going with serious issues as well so I'm not you know in general about particular festivals sometimes I also with our borderland foundation we take a part in in such kind of events but I'm saying more about
Speaker A
festivalization so there is almost nothing uh beside the festivals and the question is you know after festival is uh ending what we do yes we there there's culture capital of Europe one year of events and a lot of so we call it white elephants
Speaker A
So building [clears throat] institutions, headquarters, you know, for cultural events and and so on. But when festival is over, when the culture capital is over, then became empty. There's problem of managing it. You know, there is problem of sustaining and continuing it.
Speaker A
And mostly it is deserted space like after, you know, catastrophe of European culture. um um European capital of culture.
Speaker A
So I'm saying let's think about that you are you are people who are studying culture you you you will become you know culture animators or people involved in that or another way in culture activities.
Speaker A
So uh my question would would be for all of us you know what we can do to change and to make culture more relevant for the problems we have all around us. Yes.
Speaker A
And to counter this uh uh this paradox that you know from one side you have a lot of cultural life and events and on other side you have growing browning radical right uh xenophobic and other kind of a mentality and activities in in
Speaker A
the uh in our society. the growing fear of the other, you know, the growing fear of of the enemies. It's very difficult to make people in the west understand that Ruski, which you would understand very well. It is not only a military war but it is a
Speaker A
culture war and it that the Ruski is a cultural front that you have front line uh and there is a battle also on that field that it is very much about soft power using for new authoritarian regimes in in in the world and this more
Speaker A
democratic liberal side have a problem to understand the uh impact of the soft power. They believe you know in security in business in economics uh develop things you know to think about the problems and so on but they don't value enough
Speaker A
uh the power of soft which uh regimes like Putin's and others understand very well and they can use it not only uh not only in Russia not only in the war with Ukraine but also in this cultural war
Speaker A
which is going on uh all over Europe and [clears throat] other parts of the world as as well. So from one side it is this negative side of counterculture how I understand it that we should think how to oppose and how to be stronger in
Speaker A
this battle. But on the other side there is a positive side. So if even we would do not have these dangers and the dark sides around us, I would I would with the same same power. I would stress the importance of a
Speaker A
counterculture which goes not only against enemies like you know military enemy or but it goes uh to face other problems you know and our our human developments of consumerism you know of uh putting spiritual life aside you know
Speaker A
uh and deserting our uh life from uh from the deep spiritual experiences and and so on. So for me all these uh elements are part of the possible new counterculture which I uh try to explain a bit a bit
Speaker A
for you this time. And uh for the patronon uh of my speech uh today I choose Odisay Odis uh uh and I will sometimes refer to the story of the ancient Greek me myth of Odisaya but also to the Nolan film I s to the movie
Speaker A
probably you saw it and at least I'm coming in Poland we have a very hot discussion around this uh uh movie today and probably we can pick up some elements of this story why it is so relevant and and powerful for us
Speaker A
today. Also I must admit that I'm not a fan of the movie. I know some better movies than Nolan's adaptation of Meda.
Speaker A
uh uh uh for example just to mention you know there is a movie under the title Nostos uh the return of Roberto Salvini Italian uh director I think it's 20 years before a beautiful movie without words telling a story there is a a
Speaker A
return of Odis by Oberto Pasolini which I recommend you very much to see. It's it's uh 2025 I think two years ago made and you can find it I think in in internet pasolini is it's not a family of uh of
Speaker A
Pier Pao uh but uh but a very interesting avanguard kind of the Italian director and there is a very interesting serial um Italian as well by uh under the title Odisya in I think in uh eight chapters from 1969
Speaker A
Frankosi which which is also I consider as as a very interesting. So only after all this I see Nolan as as another interesting adaptation but but not the best not the best one.
Speaker A
coming here to our meeting. We were crossing with Zorana uh the place with some posters and I saw on the poster this title Nostto and it was about the work or workshop for uh for combatants of the war
Speaker A
in Ukraine. And it struck me that was titled nost. Uh that so the the thing is about the return. Nosttos is an ancient Greek word for return and in fact odisa is nosttos.
Speaker A
uh and the nostal is one of the major topics of ancient mythology and I would start with that as an element of counterculture and there are different aspects I would like to pick up with nostance of return and even in this very direct
Speaker A
sense the country like Ukraine. society like Ukrainian society have a big challenge to integrate and to bridge the traumatic experience of soldiers who will come back and who will they will return to the communities and societies. How we
Speaker A
can manage it? How culture can play the role for good integration or for good return? because the return could be a catastrophe also and could deepen the trauma and Greeks were very aware about that. No, the the main tragedies which happened in
Speaker A
Greek mythology world was about good or bad returning. And for example, you have this uh this story about Argonauts and with Meda, you know, about Greeks having, you know, heading for the first time in the history across the Limus,
Speaker A
across the borders of their own civilization toward Khis, the another land, which is today's Georgia in Kaukazus. Yes. On the eastern uh side of the Black Sea.
Speaker A
And for them it was the first encounter with the others and Jason a leader of this expedition with his crew. You know they are traveling across many dangerous experiences and they need help and support from different people on the way. So that's how you how you
Speaker A
[snorts] go make your journey when you are a young person when you are young artist when you are young person introducing the life you need help you need support advice solidarity with other people to make your way up to the mountain you
Speaker A
know possible. So that's how you build your career, how you build your life. You are accepting gifts from other people, from other communities because otherwise you will never reach the the peak, the top of the mountain. Yes. You
Speaker A
will never do it alone. Yeah. You you need support and solidarity. So you gathering gifts D.
Speaker A
Yes. which which is a very serious thing especially for deep old traditions. It's not easy thing. It's easier to reject the gift then you are free.
Speaker A
Yes. And you are on your own. But when you accept the gift when you take it you are bind to that situation. Yes. you own something to the people who were offering you the gift. You you should think how to give back.
Speaker A
The the heart of the culture for ancient people was the culture of giving back that we are just having culture to help us to give back what we receive.
Speaker A
And then you have this situation that you are going you know you are reaching the golden fleece symbolic in Argonaut Smith. So you are reaching the goal you know you are you are taking uh this gift of golden fleece in Khis and then you
Speaker A
have way back. So you accepted kenya hospitality of the ki kh his people which is the main thing you know that the gift could be the hospitality.
Speaker A
Yes they are offering you Jason with his people accepted it. They use hospitality. They use help of media uh to to reach golden fleas and then they are coming back to Greece and the all whole tragedy on uh happening on the
Speaker A
way back. They are not mature enough, not strong, not spiritually advanced enough to have a good return.
Speaker A
And this encounter this bridge with the other with meda who was first first person of otherness in our civilization that this encounter is a big failure. It ends up with Europeid tragedy as you probably known and the Jason it's
Speaker A
very interesting in our western civilization when you see Hollywood movies about Argonauts and so on you see Jason as a hero yes as somebody who gains his golden fleas with his crew and so on for Greeks he was a loser he
Speaker A
almost committed suicide you know Atheina was merc had mercy on him and put part of of the of the ship, you know, to kill him. But he was really in depression and in in losing everything, you know. Why? Because he did not give
Speaker A
back. He broken and he broke uh he has broken love with uh with Meda which are like two sacral values for for Greeks.
Speaker A
So that's one context but think about our modern culture and my belief is very much that we we are very good and we have culture for gaining the top of the mountain you know we we know what is
Speaker A
fame we know how to make career how to become you know the greatest artist writer you know with awarding Nobel prizes and we are very good in that and we have culture to help you, you know, to to reach the summit, the
Speaker A
top. But the problem starts when we start to to return to step down from this summit of the of your career.
Speaker A
What to do with this fame? What to do with this richness? What to do with all these gifts you received on the way?
Speaker A
How to give back? How to be humble you know and be ready know mature spiritually enough mature not to be captured by all the weaknesses in connection with fame and with you know splendor and with becoming a star or you know you all know
Speaker A
very good the stories of the big stars. It's very rarely that they end up they life with respect, honor and something what you you you may say a spiritual maturity.
Speaker A
Very often in majority they are losers you know they we have the images you know like paradise but in fact when you go deeply to the life and to the stories it's a tragedy.
Speaker A
So something uh something is very much about our culture contemporary that it is built on on this first stage of the exhibition.
Speaker A
Yes. How to reach the summit? How to reach the fame? How to become a star?
Speaker A
But then you are alone mostly and you have problems of stepping down and returning. So for me counterculture it's also culture who cares about return who cares about stepping down and giving back the gifts.
Speaker A
You see I had that experience uh with the first counterculture movement in Europe in the six in the 60s I was too young but in the 70s it was a moment momentum when I came into the culture as
Speaker A
an theater director and actor in an avangard theater in Poland which was called gardinit and it was very close to grottoski theater movement to Peterbrook and so on. So I remember the the moment when counterculture was still alive
Speaker A
after 68 and after all these what happened uh along this first count uh counterculture which was you know in mostly in United States but in Western Europe you know this leftoriented students young people been building barricades on the street protesting
Speaker A
about consumption Russian life, about bourgeoa life, about not respecting human rights, about Vietnam war. It was all you know the basic for the counterculture the huge protest a huge rebellion about this how to do it in practice how this uh riot against we could
Speaker A
transform into something practical that was mostly about creating communes hippie communes you know alternative communes So the belief was that we should find the freedom, we should find the kingdom for our values, what matters for us outside the society, somewhere in the
Speaker A
forest, somewhere in far away where there are no other people's and we build our commune, our life from the scratch as a as a hippie commune and then we can uh defend somehow our dreams, you know, about freedom, about free love, about
Speaker A
human rights, you know, woman being equal with men and all these ideals we had at at that time.
Speaker A
But the uh the end of this story is not so pink and colorful. The end of this story is very sad because these communes became mostly a small states of violence.
Speaker A
The small group of people under the guru leadership which became very quickly authoritarian and full of violence. Yeah. close like sex kind of.
Speaker A
So the lesson for me from that uh that time is uh that maybe the the mistake uh of this failure was that the whole concept of counterculture at that time was to escape from the people from societies somewhere
Speaker A
to the margins and creating something by our own. When I think about this new counterculture, I think more about the opposite direction.
Speaker A
You have dreams, you have your values, you have your your understanding of freedom. Go to the people and work with them.
Speaker A
Settle yourself. not not be afraid uh about living with people, but try to share these and to bridge your dreams, you know, and your winning uh uh desires and so on together with a real community where real society, a real
Speaker A
country, real place. And then you can check what is possible and what is real, what is natural. Yes, that you do it together with other people.
Speaker A
So that's that's how this concept of small center of the word the title which is a you know the title of my book me which which is also published in Ukrainian came from yes this first gesture of of changing the vector of this journey
Speaker A
not out of society community but toward the people and so our decision when I think about the Borderland team about Borderland center and foundation we created 35 years ago you know on this transformation period of 1989 the decision was uh very much influenced
Speaker A
but this by this experience that don't stop going to the festivals stop thinking about creating commun outside society. Let's try to build our center, our idea in a small town among concrete borderlands communities society and let's stay with them
Speaker A
and at least you know we are now uh for 35 years working in that one place. at least we have chance and time to give back the gifts. So my my theater work at before was based, you know, on travels and expeditions to
Speaker A
traditional communities first in Poland then all over the world to ask people who who secured you know ancient memories, songs, rituals, stories to share it with us and we were gathering them, documenting them and building avanguard performances.
Speaker A
out of it. So again you have this model of taking something from the people taking treasures you know from local peoples who spent you know sometimes they did some sacrifices you know to secure some memories you know some songs some books
Speaker A
some documents so they this is their life effort you know to defend old tradition to defend memories stories and so on. So you are asking for that they are sharing you all this with you. You are taking it for your research for your
Speaker A
performance for your music for your literature and then what what what about these people? You are just leaving them and going to the festival or you know and never coming back.
Speaker A
But they understanding at the beginning sharing with you the song is that we will h have a kind of relationship.
Speaker A
Yes. That uh that it will build kind of bridge and network or connective tissue between us that it will be continue.
Speaker A
Yes. That there is the just a beginning of some exchange and doing things together.
Speaker A
And [snorts] my culture at that time when I did this avanguard theater in the 70s and 80s we didn't have chance to give back you know we ended up in the world festivals on different continents we didn't have time but also didn't have
Speaker A
tools organization you know to to to stay with people and to give back. Yes. So the borderland foundation when we started to think to establish it under 19 you know uh 89 this transformation process was exactly that possibility. Suddenly we started to
Speaker A
understand that we can stay with people. Not just crossing them like a theater through you know showing performance and going to another town to another festival and so on but stay and start to work with them and start to
Speaker A
you know continue uh this cultural exchange and doing things together uh with them. And this as I understand was a gesture of counterculture just to oppose this mainstream pattern as usually it should be no that suddenly we started to understand that another way
Speaker A
of doing culture is possible in Grovski's term you know it was uh he he has this name active culture that you know there was periodic in Gratovski theater development that he understood that performance is not enough that the situation like I'm in
Speaker A
here with you is artificial that I am a speaker I'm on the stage and you are just listeners and you are just receivers of my message for Grotoski at that time what became important was that you are active that my responsibility is
Speaker A
to to engage you in in a creative process. So if I would stay longer with you here in Oku maybe it will happen. I would think what we can do together and make you not just listeners but creators
Speaker A
of something what we can do together and that's how he breaks this tradition of making performances also but he called active culture and inviting people like we here let's spend one week in a very special jinka village near rotav and we will do
Speaker A
some spontaneous actions you know I invite you to to yoga kind of movement you know to rituals we know from Africa you know to to share songs singing dances and so on let's do it together let's open it you know for spontaneous
Speaker A
uh action together with that was that it lasted for one week yeah so it's opening something in you some longing some possibility but then you are alone.
Speaker A
No possible to continue it. Yeah. Because the work show is over. Yes. You just started something and people had really problems you know with this experience of active culture very much psychological one that it was very difficult to bridge this very special
Speaker A
spiritual experience in the forest with your life in the city with family with your kids you know with your environment so it was like two contradictory realities ities. Yes. So what what the borderland proposition was that we uh we can avoid this gap between
Speaker A
two things through the continuous living and and work with people over the years and creating some when you repeat something when you do things for long term you just create rituals.
Speaker A
Yes. What is a ritual? is something what can be repeated you know again and again uh for long time and then even a small things like we for example started to create you know the performance devoted to the
Speaker A
bridge when uh when we realized that people wanted to have it each year at the same day and after years it became a holiday because you can continue it and you can you to uh keep this line between
Speaker A
something what started and then developing uh to other other stage uh stages. So another component of the counterculture I want to bring to our reflection is time.
Speaker A
We lost time in culture. I started to tell you about events and festivals but what it is very much short time events.
Speaker A
Yeah. that something is happening, you know, like firework and and we don't have time in culture to do a spiritual deep journey with something what we are engaged in because we don't have time because everything is should be you know
Speaker A
limited to the certain categories you know of of events. Yeah. Even if think about from the academic perspective.
Speaker A
Yes. And that we are leaving both culture people, academic people with projects, you know, with grants with something what we can open for short term because we have budget for that. We have possibility for that. But how and
Speaker A
and what for example when we you will start to do any kind I don't know research in in Hutulian region you know with any kind of people or the district in Viv you know you will you will make a
Speaker A
storytelling program with people then and when you will be engaged in that it means that you will be you will build like ties with people you will build a ties with place then it will hard you that you should stop it that you just
Speaker A
started something and then there is no way to continue it but you need but you feel the need of continuation because you know that you do not everything. Yes. Uh no that that there is the need or desire you know to
Speaker A
uh to keep this relationships. Yes. To develop it to go deeper in that uh in that terms. So the the thing uh for me about uh counterculture is how to regain time to our cultural work. And this is for example a question
Speaker A
when I which I have with the grant givers with a with a organization starting from ministry of culture to the you know private sector and so on talking with people who wanted to support culture how they can change their mind for you
Speaker A
know giving support for small actions shortterm actions to the program which will last for five years seven years. How we can measure the goal, you know, of of our program, not just for tomorrow, but in advance for several years. Yes,
Speaker A
that's that's another another uh question we we may have. You may ask how to organize it from the very practical side, how to create these tools for for for doing this.
Speaker A
giving you our example of the borderland. We started with NGO, we started with the foundation, the culture foundation which was one of the first in new you know postcommunist Poland created. So we had our independent entity but only when we came to this
Speaker A
small town s and started there were we understood that this is not enough that we should create an an institution and now I I'm aware that I'm introducing to our discourse narrative you know this very not easy word institution
Speaker A
we we connect institution mostly with this uh static uh uh culture or other types of institutions supported by government public money and so on. And when we we want to do some new things like new cult counterculture maybe the last thing
Speaker A
which will come to our mind is institution. Yes, we want to be independent. We want to be on our own free in our actions and creativity and so on. But there is another dimension of that that institution gives you the chance for
Speaker A
continuous work for many years and not just be dependent on grants for projects only.
Speaker A
So when when you when I think about institution rather like a small one to propose you know to for example to small centers of the world which we are helping to create.
Speaker A
The impulse is but okay maybe we have to start to think about establishing a small institution which which means that that the support for this existence and so on is for long term for many years and you have a stable you know budget
Speaker A
minimal. you can add to to that you know some grants from different organizations country state European and so on that's how we are operating that but at the same time we have an institution supported by local government by
Speaker A
our regional uh uh structures and so on that's how it works in our case in the practice I we can talk about this but I want because all what I'm saying you know not it's not only about ideas it's also about how
Speaker A
to make it real yes and how to structure the work that it will be not just fantasy but we can make it really and and if we don't have this proposal you know to our partners in the city in the
Speaker A
ministry you know in the political field business field and so on if we do do not have our proposal then we accept you know the patterns which are already existing and which are not fitting with new counterculture philosophy. [snorts]
Speaker A
So uh m maybe it will sound controversial for you but I see inst small building small institutions in culture as a part of new counterculture and as a part of avoiding this projectoriented grandoriented short-term oriented actions h and work we we do
Speaker A
some other things I would like to add to this concept of new counterculture and why Odysius is it could be a patron for uh for that. So I mentioned you nost you know the returner he was a a returner
Speaker A
[snorts] uh and he was also the person remember who used and who was successful only because of hospitality and only because he was receiving you know all the time this support from other people gods and me and so on
Speaker A
but He was also uh maybe you remember uh when he's uh having this adventure with Cyclop and they are going to you know the the crew of Odis is killing uh Cyclop Cyclop was asking Odis who you are
Speaker A
and and the question was Otos I'm nobody. Uh which which meant, you know, it was a smart answer over the S, you know, not to be killed because the other Cyclopses didn't didn't know whom to kill, you know, because he was nobody. But it is
Speaker A
there is something deeper in in that answer of that uh being c deep culture animator.
Speaker A
You you take this position of being nobody in terms that you are not fixing yourself on one profession, on one name, on one identity.
Speaker A
that there is freedom in opening who in to the field who am I yes that uh that you are ready to that's how um how he was in Greek tradition Odysus was called polyropos that's how home is is
Speaker A
naming him polyropos I think in the first hexametric verse of the odisay you have this name uh this word polyropos.
Speaker A
So using different path using different phases you know to achieve the the goal you know to to to be on the journey that I'm using different possibilities different path and never just the one and for me the relevance of that uh are
Speaker A
many of them but one I I would stress is that sometimes we become fans of a specific art. So uh we love music.
Speaker A
Yeah. or uh we love literature, we love and we go deeply, you know, in this passion of loving a certain kind of art or other profession. And then you have this problem that the person who is an artist behind this beautiful art has
Speaker A
some deals with evil with uh uh the Fouian, you know, pact of uh of doing good art but at the same time being a wrong or evil man with wrong behavior.
Speaker A
And then we have the problem because we love the music and he or she is a great conductor.
Speaker A
Yes. And and we try and what what is our tendency then that we would be ready rather to divide. Okay. But this problem is okay but I love his music and I don't care what kind of a man person he is or
Speaker A
she is. Yeah. And that's how is you know this relativization of evil it's part of that.
Speaker A
Yeah. Because I'm a fan of music and and at that moment you see how music is enslaving you.
Speaker A
Yes. like this love of something like this name you know this specialtity is enslaving you and making you blind for moral values.
Speaker A
Yes. And that's a way to treat culture or art like an autonomous kingdom. When you talk with Russian artists today they would say we are you know we are not responsible for anything what's going on. We are antiputinist because we
Speaker A
are and we are just autonomous citizenship of this art kingdom and there's very difficult to find this reflection critical autocritical reflections that these two things are connected that there's that for for you and that's I think the contribution of Ukrainian
Speaker A
culture today in general in Europe in the west is that you do see the connection and it's because of your situ existential situation of you it's very difficult to make this easy division.
Speaker A
Yes. And uh because you are morally challenged by the war situation and you are becoming very sensitive on evil and wrongdoing.
Speaker A
Yes. But the the way Odysus was dealing with that, you know, as as this ootos was okay, I can be interested. But all the time I should free myself of being dependent and enslave by any kind of passion
Speaker A
uh in that way. So I should be free to make choices. Yes. And and I I I should be eager in each momentum of my life to say no because morally it is not accepted for me and there is something
Speaker A
more danger more relevant for me than just this art just this name just this identity.
Speaker A
Yeah. when when I work with uh Jewish people on the borderlands, we we did a lot of work with Jewish tradition with uh [sighs] you know they were very sensitive you know for the situation in Bosnia for example and I have with them the
Speaker A
partnership very strong partnership about defending the suffering of Muslim people in Bosnia and and so on. But there was a moment when I faced the problem with them when the situation in Israel with Palestinians for them was difficult to
Speaker A
say to themselves that that being Jews doesn't mean that I should only defend Jewishness. And you know because I'm Jew and I should defend my people in that context to think you know and to be empathic to the suffering of the
Speaker A
neighbors. Yes. So they became obsessed you know they were free in other front lines but at that very thing was that the same person who was eager to be empathic to the suffering of the others sometimes was in certain circumstances he or she
Speaker A
was stuck with his Jewishness. Yeah. that this strong identity that I shouldn't I should sing about my people my identity and that's how I judged the world made them blind for being perpetrators for the others.
Speaker A
The same happened with us polls for example you know when uh when we published the book under the title neighbors by Yan Gross it was p our publishing house uh book and it was very painful for Paul's the book you know because it shows the
Speaker A
Polish neighbors killing the Jewish neighbors in the small town Yedvab in Poland and then the it it is still going gone this debate about these problems. But for us Pauls for many many years uh we had this mindset that we are always
Speaker A
victims that we were you know under the Russian occupation, German occupation there were that we were victims of second world war and so on and suddenly to open these windows that we were two perpetrators and you know killers of our Jewish
Speaker A
neighbors of course without the presence of Germans it wouldn't happen but still yes there is something uh in it so then you have the situation when you open up this w uh wound and then the question is but why you are
Speaker A
doing it you are polish yeah you should defend your people you you should be with them yeah why you are so critical maybe you are traitor to our you know polish Polishness and so on. And you exactly have this momentum in that situation
Speaker A
that you ask yourself but what is you know what is important you know the truth the human morality in case or my own particular name yes so in that terms mean I'm nobody I'm free of any kind of belongings in judging
Speaker A
moral things spiritual things which are making me responsible as a human being. That that was something deeply rooted in in um [snorts] Odisu's uh story as well. I'm saying it also you know in the context of counterculture because
Speaker A
uh we are very much uh stuck uh in this mainstream culture on on that kind of limits you know that we are having culture like something what represents us as a group ethnic group religious group culture group, you know, feminist,
Speaker A
gender, uh, minority, national minority and so on, which from one side are very important we because we should manifest our belongings and our particular cultures. There is nothing wrong in that. But you think also that there is a
Speaker A
limit in that that we need something you know crossing it being more open you know having culture as connective tissue as something what unifies us not only makes us different. Yes. So one of the problems of today's crisis of culture
Speaker A
and this xenophobia growing you know movement is polarization that we became masters of defending our small identities but we were at the same time losing something what was connective tissue culture as common you know mi would say rojina europa you know the the native
Speaker A
Europe as tight title of his books, thinking about Europe as a common culture. Yes, common belonging. And when I'm analyzing this book with my students in Bologna University, when I have my program there, I have the first problem
Speaker A
I have is to translate this term Europa into the western languages. They don't have this word for culture as common. You know the book by Mi is translated Otra Europa the other Europe mostly. Yes. Uh but it is not the same
Speaker A
like Regina Prada. So la in France and so on then. So this is another aspect of counterculture for me that we should more and more create culture as connective tissue as bridgeb building art rather than only defending our small
Speaker A
islands but it means on the same level both things not erasing one another. So when uh I would say like that that we had in modernity two narratives dominant narratives of our civilization. One was based on national movement and uh you
Speaker A
know spring of nations, emancipation of nations sovereignity independence. These are our values very important and we should we shouldn't reject it.
Speaker A
The problem is that sometimes it goes to the nationalism uh which becomes xenophobic ideology with a kind of violence at the end. We published once uh Brian Porter book uh the American Hungarian historian under the title from where uh from when
Speaker A
nationalism started to hate. So on the this line of the positive nation building national movement you have this ideology of of violence and and and power [snorts] and the second narration is cosmopolitan or was during the modernity time I'm a
Speaker A
citizen of the world I'm belonging you know to the metropolis of New York Berlin [snorts] uh and uh and others and I I'm becoming cosmopolitan in the meaning that I'm cutting off all my belongings to the province to my
Speaker A
roots you know to the family national and other roots and so on. So in short, we don't have time now to develop it, but in short, you had this, we had these two streams of of uh of the development and they were
Speaker A
con uh contrary to each other. So the cosm cosmopolites and liberal uh ideas in the western world understood rootedness as closeness as something what goes to traditional conservative and at the end right-wing concepts and ideologies and the remedy
Speaker A
for that was cosmopolitan openness. Yes. And being tolerant and being open to the other and so on. But thanks to cutting off your belongings because you become free as you cut off your belonging and you know who will care about my province
Speaker A
my you know I want to be free I go to the big world I go to the metropoly I go to the world citizenship and so on. In my understanding for our new counterculture, what the challenge will be would be to bridge these two
Speaker A
things and to find a third way to find openness in rootedness. That's our experience when we work with the people. Yes. that paradoxically people who do not have strong roots belongs you know emancipation you know and so on couldn't be open
Speaker A
they are tend to be close all these Hitler kind of Nazis had problems with belongings with their roots you know they did have complex of who they are they were not deeply rooted so because of that They started to hate all this
Speaker A
liberal ideology together with others. Yes. Because you know together with tolerance and so on. But the root of that was the problem with their own identity.
Speaker A
So you should fight for your emancipation as Ukraine is fighting today for the national state.
Speaker A
Emancipation is part of this problem pro process of of being open and hospitable and part of the world.
Speaker A
You couldn't uh achieve it without it and being enslaved. Yes. and being you know uh partitioned or occupied uh for that. But the mistake of modernity of this mainstream culture was you know to neglect belonging neglect any forms of
Speaker A
patriotism neglect any forms of you rootedness and so on. So I see it as part of this counterculture that we build small centers of the world in a way of deepening belonging deepening solidarity and ecology with all environment we are living and that's our
Speaker A
way to be open to be in solidarity with others to be and this is another thing I want to pick up from the audi you Why?
Speaker A
Why hospitalitability was so relevant for him and for uh for this old tradition. Know why was so sacral value and virtue like anyone other only love was on the same level because for what you build your house for what you build
Speaker A
your state for what you build your belonging just only for be happy with yourself then it wouldn't work only if you can offer hospitality because you have a house because you have a country we because you have your
Speaker A
richness you can be hospitable otherwise you can't serve this uh uh for for other people that's how Greek understood it yes I have a house I don't know probably you know from the old Ukrainian tradition here in the
Speaker A
Carpathian at least I know we have it in Pol in Polish on Polish side among for example Lemco people lina when the house is built in the traditional way you know family could be very crowded many members sometimes in one bed you have three
Speaker A
children speak sleeping yes very dense but at the same time you have three empty room in the Isba not possessed by anybody.
Speaker A
No. Ready to host. That possession of everything in the house that you just occupied all the spaces in your house meant that you do not still have a house because house became only real when you have empty space in that not possessed
Speaker A
by you. Uh and it was the meaning of that was uh with transcendence. So this host could be you know not only human being.
Speaker A
Yeah. When I work for example in Bhutan you have this tradition of building so-called zongs. It's a constellation of different buildings of the community with temple like in here we have in Oku.
Speaker A
You know you have campus, you have living rooms, you have uh um restaurants, accommodation, you you know temple everything but but there is one building in the whole constellation empty.
Speaker A
Nobody is living there. And when you ask them about the explanation would be oh the host could leave with us. You know there is a room for somebody else not us.
Speaker A
Yeah. That there is something more than we can uh use for our living and without that it's very uh very difficult to have a real house to have a real encounter with the other uh and uh and so on. That's very much about
Speaker A
hospitality. How why it matters and why Jason the leader of Argonauts was a loser for for Greeks because he broke this rule this virtue of Kenya at at the end. And maybe uh last thing I want to add to our dictionary of new
Speaker A
counterculture uh of [snorts] uh of the words and concept is the first word from the title of my book small uh because I I I think it is the most relevant one. Why small?
Speaker A
You the main mainstream culture would say as but small doesn't matter. You will not change the world by small.
Speaker A
Yeah. You need big numbers, big scope, you know, big things to do something real. That's something what happened with our civilization that we started to believe only in biblical terms of Goliath power.
Speaker A
Goladat is a powerful person. Yes. Because he is big. He possess big numbers, a big power. David with this small power, do we have him?
Speaker A
Do we believe in small things which can change our life and the world? Does it matter that we are gathering here in the small circle of people and not with thousands crowds of thousands?
Speaker A
Yeah. Does it has any sense comparing with with crowned uh crowd kind of events?
Speaker A
Let's think about that. But uh for me losing the trust in small and this is really what happened in modern culture. We became losers somehow and we are in hands of Goliath powers all over because we do not not
Speaker A
because of Goliath not at all because we we lost the trust in David power. We lost the trust that small matters.
Speaker A
That you can change the world only with small things with only with doing small but deep but concrete very intimate relationships you know small cramps of uh different kind of activities. Yes.
Speaker A
which which can matter and which can be really human and and deep because we know that we uh in a huge uh number of things you know there is something lost there is a different logic start to operate when uh
Speaker A
when we uh think in that categories. Yes. The logic of big central is to monopolize. Yes. to make us all enslaved by the big center by big power and it deserts everything around with a competition and with a dominance the big center big
Speaker A
number wants to dominate to enslave the logic of small is the logic of solidarity I'm happy when you are happy you other small circle of people your success as a small center of the world here and there is my success. That's that's a logic of
Speaker A
of solidarity. We we we we can be multiplied many of us of small gestures actions could be done and we are strengthening each other as that's a logic of small center of the world. You know that you take power from other
Speaker A
small centers of the world. It's contrary to the big. They would be never happy with your happiness. They would like to dominant you, you know, to be better or to be stronger or to be bigger and [snorts] and so on. Another kind of
Speaker A
uh of logic which can work in that. So that's this focus on on bringing back the trust to uh to the small uh to the small things.
Speaker A
Trust is the the last thing you know you remember if you keep in mind the Nolan's movie and I like it. It is his invention. It is not in Homer. this person of sin, you know, this small boy
Speaker A
who is uh going to the army to for Troy, replacing his friend. Yes. Uh you remember this act that his friend was a kind of coward and you know make him to be part of of of soldiers going young soldiers going to
Speaker A
to the army. And then Sinan was this person whom Odiso said that he should stay. That's how the movie starts. You see this small boy on the seashore saying to try Troan people about the horse that it is a gift for Atenna.
Speaker A
But Odis didn't tell him the truth about the Greeks being inside the horse. And as you know because he didn't trust him. He thought that if he would say him this he will be not enough good actor you know to say truth to to the trians
Speaker A
and you know what happened you know that he is killed the Troan horse is going and it's think about this it is a wrong gift is breaking sea yes he's making he's foolish ing triance with a using the gift using the tradition this
Speaker A
sacral rule of offering gift. No, the gift is a killer uh in in in in that way. But then there is a moment when when Odysus, you know, later on goes to the kingdom of death and he he meets Sinan
Speaker A
and Sinan, you know, as a dead soul. Yes. And Sana is saying to me, "But you didn't tell me the truth. I was dying not knowing and you didn't trust me." Yes. Why? And this is my source of
Speaker A
suffering that I It's okay that I died. No problem. But my problem is that I died without the knowledge of truth.
Speaker A
And that's something uh what I think in our reflection of new counterculture is crucial that all this is built on trust.
Speaker A
So this going back to the people this gesture of offering you know back the gifts and so on. It is very much about building the trust. And building the trust for me in that terms means that because look as
Speaker A
in in general you have a an image you know of an artist you know being very genius under the academy of music under the academy of other arts and philosophy or other things going to small town going to the people to small district to
Speaker A
the province you he or she would think I'm sacrificing my artistic ambitions because I'm going to the province.
Speaker A
Yeah. That so go going toward the small centers of the world, you could be in the position that you would understand that you should step down from your am artistic ambitions.
Speaker A
Yes. And this means do not trust the people that they will understand and they will like you as a part of the community because you are very ambitious in artistic uh um desires. Yes. Of avanguard art doing something original doing something
Speaker A
courageous and so on. [snorts] You should trust, we should trust that this will be the bridge to the community not other way around that we should not compromise with our courage working with the people because then will happen with
Speaker A
what the same what with sin happened. We will blame or we will you know make them blame on the truth and put the in the position of not just fully you know people who will not understand something or who would make some wrong
Speaker A
things because we are in the better position like Odisa who thought that he knows more or he is better in this competence or or other because san was too simple, you know, too stupid, you know, too young or
Speaker A
maybe I don't know that's that's very often the challenge for people going to do active culture, you know, this small center kind of work. We should trust that we can make with people most ambitious, most beautiful art and works uh possible. That's why it
Speaker A
is small center of the world of of uh the best possible things we can do together with people and [snorts] uh and not compromising with our dreams and ideas. So maybe this is something what I will say as an introduction and
Speaker A
maybe you have some reflections or questions. I would be very open and uh ready to answer you.
Speaker A
How about in time? Okay. Yes, we have time. So I have a question about that you mentioned particularly like the victimizing ourselves which kind of brings the evil in the end. And I just remember that uh Slavijic in his
Speaker A
book violence talked exactly like that about Israel uh that they basically couldn't work out their trauma of being victims and that's why the evil kind of continues this way, right?
Speaker A
So is that what you're trying to say that like not accepting and going out through your trauma is what brings us continuously back and back to this evil?
Speaker A
Mhm. Yes. And my question would be if so how how to work with that? Yes. How? So from one side and this is a case of Jewish people you suffered a lot and you have many arguments to defend your victimhood.
Speaker A
Yes. And you can be obsessive with this suffering of your people not only privately but it goes through generations. Yeah.
Speaker A
And so when you go for example to AIT still there is this banner with this sentence of Santayana philosopher if we will not remember it it could happen again 20 years ago I would be fine with that today my question is how do we remember?
Speaker A
Yes. Because there are different ways of remembering and the remembering could be killing also and could could be you know something what will destroy your life and not and of course the others life around. So we should develop culture of
Speaker A
remembering and that's part of of the small center of the world concept but also of this counterculture uh as I understand that [snorts] you can't do it in a shortterm action you you will not do it through the
Speaker A
festival yeah because it needs time yeah so that this time dimension I was mentioning you know before it's also the part of the problem if we do not have time how we should expect that people will overcome it you know over the night
Speaker A
yeah it is long-term process but what I observe you know with our Jewish partners you know how they educated young generations you know with this victimhood many teachers understood it that it is wrong you know many people you know the
Speaker A
as you know they are coming to Polish to to visit concentration camps as a part of curricula of the grammar school and high school and so on but nothing else.
Speaker A
Yes, we were trying to meet them with Polish people, you know, with other youngsters to have discussion to open them up to other memories also to other sufferings.
Speaker A
Yeah, they were obsessive only on their own. They didn't know anything about bloodlands, about Ukrainian suffering, you know, about Lithuanian suffering.
Speaker A
There there was no interest of them. Even when when it appears they they would feel it as a competence, you know, sometimes there is a competence of victimhood.
Speaker A
Yeah. So that's how it was so difficult and teachers who understood it were working like underground of the state policy. So they were coming to our center but not not telling the officials that they are going elsewhere not only
Speaker A
to concentration camp. So we need a critical memory culture know to develop you know self-critical also even in a deep deep victimhood you know uh you should always be open for that and gives this empty room you know for some other memories
Speaker A
and and so on and it needs time. Yeah, it's it's a long-term process and that's again why why it should be part of this counterculture pattern.
Speaker A
Thank you for the lecture. It was really inspiring and I found um multiple points that resonated with me and also I had a question because all of those like exposing yourself to the people and trusting them brings you in a very
Speaker A
vulnerable position and what to do because there is also always fear in the back of your head that it can be stabbed in your back when you trust and when you open your arms and But how to how maybe
Speaker A
we can fight this fear and maybe overcome if if there would be any troubles when we trust and we want and we want and the people that we trust won't reciprocate it.
Speaker A
Right? Great question. Uh one answer I would have to uh to that is that you become part of community.
Speaker A
So you do everything not to be kicked out which is easy. For example, when we publish this book about the advab neighbors, there were possibility like that that we become heroes of, you know, being courageous to raise these
Speaker A
problems. But heroes not in our town but in Warso, Berlin and New York. And heroes beca means that we would be perpetrated by locals and that's how usually the world and journalists understood it. Yes, that because we did I I had you know there
Speaker A
was time I had each day the phone call from New York Times you know algong and other you know journalists wanting to hear from me how we are perpetrated by locals because of publishing this book. Yeah. So that's and if you would
Speaker A
accept this scenario we would be kicked out of the community. Yes. So we did everything to to bear this burden with our people. Yes. That we should talk be patient. We we should understand that they would disagree with us you know.
Speaker A
So and try to understand and leave the room for more time. Okay. For now it is impossible but tomorrow or maybe after 5 years something else will be possible. So if you have a time perspective then you thinking different you know you can
Speaker A
suffer and could could people can hurt you and and it happens but still you stay yes and you continue yes and life is changing and the second thing I would say is and it was a kind of gift we
Speaker A
receive from the people that they didn't expect or didn't insist that that We will become like they they you know that the only way of integration is assimulation in terms that either you are becoming like we and there's then there is a room for you or
Speaker A
[snorts] you just go out. Yeah. The the our experience was that because we we were different and still we are with this borderlanders concept uh that they respected you know that. So the the mistake you can do is and many I know many examples
Speaker A
like that that you go to the community and you want to please people you know to to con uh to make this compromise. Yes. Okay. I want to be like you and I will do what you want. Uh and
Speaker A
and so on. No, we did not this scenario uh puts. So we were you know keeping this courage to be to have different kind of cultural activities you know sometimes opening wound and so on. But because we were truthful and consistent
Speaker A
with that they started to respect it you know because sometimes when you please people after one year and two they start to disrespect you. That's how it works usually. Mhm. Mhm.
Speaker A
Okay. Thank you. I really liked your lecture as well and I have um I just want to confirm if I understand your points correctly and you said I really like this quote that you said losing the trust in small we lose we become losers.
Speaker A
[clears throat] So, how do we as a culturologist, how do we keep this balance between being able to sense the the value in small moments but also not forgetting to have that global impact because as I understand we
Speaker A
want to have a global impact because well local impacting locally is very important but like overall what matters is the unity and unity comes from the big big group of people and also I get a sense that you have critiqued the um the
Speaker A
fact that we have become masters of defending our own local communities but we lost the community culture. Um and I wonder how do we again keep balance between defending and like understanding [clears throat] the small but also keeping the impact on the big.
Speaker A
Okay. So from one side uh I uh I keep this David power and this work and I'm here in Viv among you. How it happened that you see me you inviv see me somewhere in a small town s
Speaker A
and invite you know and publish my book. So what I want to say is that you do this small work but something is radiating you know uh not because you are trying to make things bigger in that terms but
Speaker A
that you are strong in in that work you are doing and then the kind of radiation comes you know and [snorts] this is one thing I would say second is responsibility for sharing and that that's Why I started to write? Yes. At
Speaker A
the beginning as a practitioner of ideas, I would think that it will not make good for my work. When you are practitioner, you little bit afraid about building reflection of that and because it needs a kind of distance to
Speaker A
that. But that was exactly the call that my responsibility is also to share and to communicate this experience, this work, you know. So you write books, you publish, you know, you go for the meetings and and so on, but still having
Speaker A
the basic thing of your work because sometimes what happens with culture animators which becomes successful in the local work that they are invited to international meetings, you know, being expert of that and that and never coming back. So finding themselves, you know,
Speaker A
in this virtual space of teaching and so on, which which is one of the possible scenarios, but but I would insist, you know, on continuing and being persistent, you know, with with this work, which is like a fundament what you
Speaker A
share. Yeah. And to according your second question about this connective tissue, you know, having culture as connective tissue is is uh I think it's so so crucial for today, you know, to to when you for example that that's
Speaker A
something what I know from from the people of old tradition like my my mentor Cheswaf Mi when you would ask him once I once I was proposed to be minister of culture. You know that was uh for for a moment and I I called him
Speaker A
he was in Kov and said Mr. just what we should talk because I have a serious issue to discuss and I came to his apartment. We sat in the kitchen and so he asked me what is so important and I I said to him
Speaker A
what you would do if you will become a minister of culture and mu's response was I will I would introduce Greek language to the schools we and I said Mr. Chesswab it is not ministry of education it is ministry of
Speaker A
culture is it separated [laughter] that's that's a pattern of old culture thinking that for him why Greek language because it was connecting all Europe yes that culture he understood as something what we share in common yes rather and
Speaker A
of course he was believer and struggle for Polish language you know for Lithuanian independence So he was engaging in these issues as well. But at the same time he had this level of commonality. Yes. Which we I think lost
Speaker A
European [snorts] Union for example. And I I hope that will be the role of Ukraine being a member of European Union that we you will bring this value of culture to European Union which is not very much valued now. We don't we we we
Speaker A
have European Union as a political project as an economical project but we don't have Europe as a culture project and we have you know everything is polarized so Polish we have Adam Mitskevich Institute Cervantes Institute you know get so we have institutions to
Speaker A
promote our national culture on the European stage yeah [snorts] which is okay but we have a little sources and instruments to have a to build European culture. Yes. Which is another kind of workshop, you know, which does not erase
Speaker A
the the the first one. Yes. It is built on uh that we have richness because of so many languages and cultures and so on. But [snorts] at the same time, this capacity to build something in common, you know, to create cultures, common
Speaker A
space, it's much much more problematic. My hope is that you will bring this uh this understanding.
Speaker A
Mhm. But I'm sorry but you you have time last question. Okay. Mhm. Okay. Uh hello my name is Mira and I have one level of English. So please forgive me if I make any mistakes. I know we talk a lot of this poem and I
Speaker A
have this question like when we work on one cultural project supported one but by institutions how can we organizate them so they keep working even after we leave maybe I have this point and like ideas when we walk
Speaker A
uh work with children we have this moment them really fixate this events like festival in their minds and it's really changed their minds when they grow up and maybe these events not long but they really have this important impact for
Speaker A
them right what do you think about them that and how we really do this impact for a long time I agree with you that festival festival could initiate some good things. Yes.
Speaker A
And be important experience for in this case case young people. But then the question will be how to continue it, how to build upon that. So what next day we will do after festival? We wait for next year, you know, festivity or we can do
Speaker A
something or even maybe we can because [snorts] the difference between festival and holiday in old tradition is that festival you can buy, you have money, you invite artist and they do a holiday for you. In a traditional way of
Speaker A
understanding of holiday is it a handmade work that we are doing that we are working for the whole year and at the end we have a festival you know a holiday but it is you know the the the
Speaker A
holiday is connected with the work we do that's what we lost also this connection between your hand work you know and the holiday you know that so I would think about how to make and you can do I know
Speaker A
some example of people who uh preparing the festival for the whole year and they engage young people uh and all other you know community members to do some kind uh hand work and of course you you invite some people but to
Speaker A
cooperate with you you know from other countries you know and so on to continue it one One proposition I would have is this small institution. Yes. So sometimes I'm talking with the mayor of a town. Yes.
Speaker A
And he have a very or she has very limited budget for culture as usual.
Speaker A
Yes. But how he spent this that for example you have €50,000 you know for so you invite a star a rock star and you give 5000 euros honorary for big star event my talk with the mayor would be maybe you
Speaker A
think that you can invest this €50,000 for creating small institutions working for the whole year and maybe this investment will bring more to the community than just a star concert. Yeah. And so just make him sing and of course he will say but it will be
Speaker A
not any splendor for me you [snorts] know as a politician I would you know they have this media kind of things and so on but you can continue you know the there because the [snorts] mayor you know the local government of course in
Speaker A
ideal form is this body who which should think about the development of community. Yes. Investing in future, you know, some something real or I remember my discussions with Victoria Amlina who came to our center to talk about how to
Speaker A
develop New York festival and Victoria's idea exactly was you know to having festival in New York but then to make a one-year program you know of working around that and and and so one and he was she was using this uh term which I
Speaker A
like very much the occupation of the future that for her occupation was not only about the territory but was also about the the future. Yes. That we are losing future because of occupation of different types. So to break it through
Speaker A
we just think about deoccupying the future which means investing in long-term visions, programs and so on.
Speaker A
I know that uh that maybe it not gives you full answer how to do it in practice and I know that there are different local governments and different Ukrainian context of of that. One of the thing we reach in Poland and I think it
Speaker A
is a small difference between our country and other central European countries after 1989 and 1991 is that we have quite strong local government system in our country. that there is more or less autonomy of local governments that they are not depended
Speaker A
so much to the center as in this centralized system. So you may think also in Ukrainian context how to strengthen local governments you know structures because it can work with this concept of small centers of the world.
Speaker A
So it's rather like like revolution kind of on this administrative level as well as I understand.
Speaker A
Mhm. Thank you. very sorry but our time is out and we have only time for uh very very thank you for your lecture lecture and it's very very inspiring and kind lecture for us and uh I think we
Speaker A
continues this conversation with our with our auditorious with our with our reading and conversation and I invite you to Thank you.
Speaker A
[applause]
Topics:counterculturecultural policyfestivalizationsoft powerEuropean Capital of Culturecommunity buildingsolidarityUkrainecultural animationmemory
