Skip to content
Start free
Get App

The Myth of the “Relationship Spark” with Logan Ury, featuring guest appearance by Christina Gravert

Behavioral Groove podcast episode with dating researcher Logan Ury and guest Christina Gravert on dating myths, the spark, satisficing, and applying game theory to dating apps.

Key Takeaways

  • The 'spark' is often a myth; relying on instant chemistry can cause people to overlook compatible partners.
  • Satisficing (choosing a good-enough option) tends to produce better dating and relationship outcomes than maximizing.
  • Setting a default to always go on a second date helps counter first-impression biases.
  • Cognitive biases such as negativity bias and the fundamental attribution error distort dating judgments and should be actively countered.
  • Game theory and behavioral economics offer useful frameworks for making dating apps and dating decisions more efficient.

What the video covers

  • The episode of Behavioral Grooves features Logan Ury, director of relationship science at Hinge and author of 'How Not to Die Alone', discussing dating behavior through a behavioral science lens.
  • Christina Gravert, a behavioral economics professor at the University of Copenhagen, joins as the show's first 'Groove partner' to contribute ideas on applying game theory to dating apps.
  • Ury's background includes Harvard psychology, a TED fellowship, leading Google's behavioral science team (the Irrational Lab), and work as a dating coach and matchmaker.
  • A central theme is the myth of the 'relationship spark' and the danger of disqualifying people who lack an immediate feeling of chemistry.
  • The conversation contrasts maximizers and romanticizers with satisficers, arguing that a satisficing approach can improve dating outcomes and long-term relationships.
  • Ury discusses cognitive biases that hinder dating, including the fundamental attribution error and negativity bias.
  • The hosts and guests discuss the 'Monet effect' and the value of setting a default to go on a second date.
  • Gravert shares personal experience with dating apps and how game-theoretic reasoning about signaling and search can make dating more efficient.
  • The episode touches on dating during the pandemic and the broader social need for significant relationships.
  • The discussion includes a 'speed round' of personal questions and a segment on the book's exercises and practical applications.

Chapters

  1. 00:00Introduction and Guest Welcome
  2. 05:00Logan Ury Speed Round and Background
  3. 25:00Myths of the Relationship Spark
  4. 50:00Maximizers, Romanticizers, and Satisficers
  5. 70:00Cognitive Biases in Dating
  6. 83:20Practical Dating Exercises and the Second-Date Default
  7. 108:20Game Theory and Dating Apps with Christina Gravert
  8. 133:20Closing Remarks and Resources

Answers

Questions about this video

Who is Logan Ury and why is she featured in this episode?

Logan Ury is the director of relationship science at the dating app Hinge and author of 'How Not to Die Alone.' She previously led Google's behavioral science team and worked as a dating coach, which is why the podcast invited her to discuss dating through a behavioral science lens.

What is the 'myth of the spark' discussed in the episode?

The myth is the belief that a strong immediate chemistry or spark is necessary for a good relationship. Ury cautions that relying on this can lead people to dismiss potentially compatible partners who don't generate instant excitement.

What role does Christina Gravert play in the episode?

Christina Gravert, a behavioral economics professor at the University of Copenhagen, appears as the show's first Groove partner. She contributes ideas on applying game theory to dating and draws on her experience with dating apps and her article on the subject.

Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

00:00
Speaker A
foreign groups the podcast that explores human behavior through a behavioral science lens. I'm Kurt Nelson, and I'm Tim Houlihan. We like to explore why we do what we do with researchers, authors, and practitioners in a conversational setting in order to bring those insights to you.
00:23
Speaker A
to you and I'm Christina Crawford I'm a professor in behavioral economics at the University of Copenhagen and also the co-founder of impactually a Behavioral Science consultancy wait wait wait wait wait what what's going on here why why is Christina here I mean
00:38
Speaker A
And I'm Christina Crawford. I'm a professor in behavioral economics at the University of Copenhagen and also the co-founder of Impactually, a behavioral science consultancy.
00:53
Speaker A
that I've spent quite some time thinking about these past months romance and dating during the pandemic I would love to contribute some interesting ideas about how to make dating more efficient by using Game Theory ah okay I I get it I guess hearing your
01:10
Speaker A
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What's going on here? Why is Christina here? I mean, Christina, no offense, we love you, but I thought this episode was going to be on dating and love.
01:25
Speaker A
yeah absolutely Christina is going to join us in our grooving session for a couple of reasons first she's already familiar with Logan's work on dating and second she's got some very cool ideas about how to apply Game Theory to dating
01:38
Speaker A
And you're a professor of behavioral economics?
01:51
Speaker A
grooves Christina well thanks Kurt and Tim I'm so excited to be your very first Groove partner this invitation is especially fun for me since I had a really great conversation with Logan just last week and she had some pretty
02:03
Speaker A
Well, Tim invited me to join you guys today because we're talking about something that I've spent quite some time thinking about these past months: romance and dating during the pandemic. I would love to contribute some interesting ideas about how to make dating more efficient by using game theory.
02:18
Speaker A
all right Logan Yuri has a remarkable background she studied psychology at Harvard was a Ted fellow then became a behavioral scientist at Google then became a dating coach and is currently the director of relationship science at the dating app hinge where she leads a
02:34
Speaker A
Ah, okay. I get it, I guess. Hearing your voice just caught me off guard. And Tim, I thought this was going to be the episode with Logan Yuri.
02:51
Speaker A
why we connected with her so her work has appeared in the New York Times in the Atlantic among a variety of other media Outlets as well as on HBO and the BBC and heads up she's a featured speaker at South by Southwest 2021 our
03:04
Speaker A
Well, it is, Kurt, and we'll introduce Logan in just a minute. But first, let's welcome Christina as our first-ever Groove partner.
03:19
Speaker A
the common hurdles and to make the most out of each phase of the dating life you'll hear her talk about why moving from romanticizer or maximizer to satisficer can make a big difference in your relationships and in your life she
03:35
Speaker A
Yeah, absolutely. Christina is going to join us in our grooving session for a couple of reasons. First, she's already familiar with Logan's work on dating, and second, she's got some very cool ideas about how to apply game theory to dating apps through the very personal experience she's had.
03:50
Speaker A
the default to always having a second date didn't you guys also talk to Logan a little bit about her communal living conditions and I think there was something about that all of us need more significant others yes yes we did and
04:05
Speaker A
Okay, so I was just confused, which is a pretty normal state for me, so I get over it really quickly, and it makes sense, and it sounds fantastic. So welcome to Behavioral Grooves, Christina.
04:21
Speaker A
freaked out yeah we don't want you getting freaked out by the f word there you go and we also want you to know that after our conversation with Logan we'll rejoin Christina for our grooving session sounds great guys I'll talk to
04:33
Speaker A
Well, thanks, Kurt and Tim. I'm so excited to be your very first Groove partner. This invitation is especially fun for me since I had a really great conversation with Logan just last week, and she had some pretty insightful tips to share. I also used the dating app Hinge as a basis for my article on applying game theory to dating apps. But isn't it time we introduce your conversation with Logan?
04:55
Speaker A
really excited for this conversation we are too this is man we are just super psyched about your book and excited that it's doing so well but we have to get started with a speed round because that's the way we do it so we want to
05:05
Speaker A
Absolutely. This is going to be fun. All right, Logan Yuri has a remarkable background. She studied psychology at Harvard, was a TED fellow, then became a behavioral scientist at Google, then became a dating coach, and is currently the director of relationship science at the dating app Hinge, where she leads a research team dedicated to helping people find love.
05:26
Speaker A
you know what's even even better about that is that the question was actually written as your favorite musician favorite sport star or favorite researcher and I just left out the favorite researcher and you just intuned that you just brought it up I'm not the
05:42
Speaker A
Yeah, and I just want to point out that she ran Google's behavioral science team, which most of us know as the Irrational Lab, and she is the author of *How Not to Die Alone*, which is why we connected with her. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, the Atlantic, among a variety of other media outlets, as well as on HBO and the BBC. And heads up, she's a featured speaker at South by Southwest 2021.
05:53
Speaker A
nerdy realm that's okay that is that is quite okay I'm glad this is going to be good all right coffee or tea coffee no hesitation there or is that just a I mean I don't like being addicted to caffeine but at this moment
06:10
Speaker A
Our conversation with Logan focused on the challenges people face in getting prepared for dating, making the most of their dating experiences, and maintaining great relationships once they've landed in one. Of course, she shared her insights into how to overcome some of the common hurdles and make the most of each phase of dating life. You'll hear her talk about why moving from being a romanticizer or maximizer to a satisficer can make a big difference in your relationships and in your life. She talks about the Monet effect, and she also talks about how we need to work hard to overcome some of our biggest biases, like the fundamental attribution error or negativity bias. And we got to talk with her about why you should set the default to always having a second date.
06:23
Speaker A
you have a spark with oh I should be answering faster um yeah give it a try but be be aware of the myths of the spark be aware of of what could Lead You astray so you shouldn't disqualify someone for the
06:40
Speaker A
Didn't you guys also talk to Logan a little bit about her communal living conditions? I think there was something about how all of us need more significant others.
06:56
Speaker A
people who are looking for relationships right as a dating coach as a Matchmaker and I've worked in a more formal realm now leading this uh relationship science team at hinge and having led the Behavioral Science team at Google and so
07:11
Speaker A
Yes, we did, and that was really cool. It made for some interesting discussion as well. Groovers, we should point out that the f-word features in our conversation, since it's the title of one of her book's chapters. Just want to let you know ahead of time so nobody gets freaked out.
07:22
Speaker A
had a lot to talk about really fun date um yeah I'm not going to see him again I would just be so perplexed and I would say what are you talking about and then the man might say well I just didn't
07:34
Speaker A
Yeah, we don't want you getting freaked out by the f-word. And we also want you to know that after our conversation with Logan, we'll rejoin Christina for our grooving session.
07:50
Speaker A
Pang of excitement and that's just not true and so am I allowed to curse on your podcast you can curse okay well I have a chapter that's called [ __ ] the spark and it's all about this idea and
08:06
Speaker A
Sounds great, guys. I'll talk to you soon.
08:24
Speaker A
spark in the beginning and even as the book even over the last week has gotten more popular more popular I've heard from people who say I knew my now husband for three years and we were friends and then we did this project
08:35
Speaker A
All right, everybody, so sit back with a fine romance gâteau and a generous pour of dating apps, and enjoy our conversation with Logan Yuri.
08:45
Speaker A
into some of the reasons things like the mere exposure effect and the fact that sometimes just being around something makes you like it more right I'm sure from a music perspective you probably have some stats around the first time
08:56
Speaker A
[Music]
09:05
Speaker A
heard of this song right right exactly the longer it's been since it came out um but yeah because of the mirror exposure effect you know someone can really grow on you so if you don't feel the spark on the first date
09:16
Speaker A
Logan Yuri, welcome to Behavioral Grooves.
09:28
Speaker A
the reason why this is not true is that some people are just very Sparky they give the spark to a lot of people you know they might be really hot or really charismatic or really narcissistic and there's actually a lot
09:39
Speaker A
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited for this conversation.
09:51
Speaker A
actually more a reflection of who they are and what their needs are than something that's emerging as a dynamic between the two of you and so if you feel the spark maybe it's a great relationship but merely having it
10:04
Speaker A
We are too. We are super psyched about your book and excited that it's doing so well, but we have to get started with a speed round, because that's the way we do it.
10:17
Speaker A
necessarily viable and so this might seem kind of silly but I really do know couples where one of the people comes to me and says if it weren't for the or how we met story we never would have gotten married
10:30
Speaker A
So, would you prefer to travel on a fixed itinerary or no itinerary at all?
10:44
Speaker A
you know we fell in love and everything was so great and blah blah blah and then like married miserably for a few years and then finally they're just like we actually never had anything in common we just thought this story was really
10:55
Speaker A
Fixed itinerary. Hmm, interesting.
11:10
Speaker A
romanticizers people who are really focused on the soul mate loving love the whole fairy tale they take they place a disproportionate amount of emphasis on how they met and then they're LED astray by that and so my advice in the book
11:28
Speaker A
All right. Would you prefer to have dinner with your favorite musician or your favorite sports star?
11:40
Speaker A
charismatic initially but they're really solid people they're reliable they're smart they're helpful and they grow on you and so the first time you meet them you might not be blown away but if you give them a few more dates
11:53
Speaker A
Favorite academic. You know, what's even better about that is that the question was actually written as "your favorite musician, favorite sports star, or favorite researcher," and I just left out the favorite researcher, and you just intuited that and brought it up. I'm not the most into music or sports, but when I've met my heroes, they've been people like Ira Glass or Dan Ariely.
12:06
Speaker A
that you're actually sort of disappointed by them and then the chapter after that is called make the second date the default and that's sort of the same idea it's saying instead of going on the first date saying should I
12:15
Speaker A
Oh, that's not quite academic, Ira Glass. But in the nerdy realm, that's okay. That is quite okay. I'm glad this is going to be good.
12:31
Speaker A
40s and he said he'd never been on a second date with anyone he had been on hundreds and hundreds of first dates and I just said you didn't give any of them a tricep well there was nothing there there was
12:45
Speaker A
All right, coffee or tea?
12:56
Speaker A
date a default um yeah you know I'm just reflecting on what you said my initial reaction was that this was a guy who was a slow burn who people weren't giving a second date to like that way I said before you said
13:09
Speaker A
Coffee, no hesitation there. Or is that just a... I mean, I don't like being addicted to caffeine, but at this moment in time I am, so I could give up a lot, but I couldn't give up coffee.
13:21
Speaker A
no empathy for this person because if you're in your 40s and you haven't learned that you know a first date isn't everything also that many people like then you're not sparking with anyone yeah that is literally he should be the poster boy for [ __ ] the
13:35
Speaker A
Oh, okay. All right, interesting way to frame it. So, the last question: is it a good idea to go out with anyone you have a spark with?
13:48
Speaker A
it's supposed to be triggering it's supposed to stop you in your tracks and have you say okay I'm on a path and where am I headed am I headed towards dying alone well I don't want to think about that but maybe
14:01
Speaker A
Oh, I should be answering faster. Um, yeah, give it a try, but be aware of the myths of the spark, be aware of what could lead you astray. So you shouldn't disqualify someone for lacking the spark, but you shouldn't necessarily enter into a relationship with them just because it's present.
14:12
Speaker A
clearly making decisions over and over again that lead him down a path and look I have no idea what's going on for him and maybe he doesn't want to be in a relationship but if he does then he
14:21
Speaker A
Okay, so what is this mythical spark that you talk about in the book?
14:36
Speaker A
relationships and unrealistic expectations of his future partner and he does need to be jolted into making a change because if not he'll never get on the path towards a relationship yeah it's really interesting again when you were talking about the the spark
14:53
Speaker A
Yeah, so for your listeners, I have worked both one-on-one with people who are looking for relationships, as a dating coach and matchmaker, and in a more formal capacity now, leading the relationship science team at Hinge, and having led the behavioral science team at Google. In that one-on-one coaching capacity, people would come to me and tell me about their dates, tell me about who they were looking for, and a lot of times people would say something like, "I met up with this guy, he was great, we had a lot to talk about, really fun date, but I'm not going to see him again." I would be so perplexed, and I would say, "What are you talking about?" And then the man might say, "Well, I just didn't feel the spark." So they were going on dates and having a good time, but then writing people off because of this so-called spark. The spark has sort of become my nemesis, this idea that you're going to feel this instant chemistry, this pang of excitement, and that's just not true.
15:05
Speaker A
rom-com where you know it was going okay it wasn't great there wasn't anything else with that but it was the the reach in for the kiss on that first date and right then it started raining just a soft gentle rain in front of us River
15:17
Speaker A
And am I allowed to curse on your podcast?
15:28
Speaker A
following me and I was like oh but we didn't really have a good time except for we accidentally got a good timing on on a kiss and um you know that was and maybe that says more about me than it
15:40
Speaker A
You can curse.
15:52
Speaker A
mate because suddenly you were playing out this fantasy from some John Hughes movie I mean who knows we don't know we don't know what she felt about you before the kiss and maybe she was interested the whole time so we don't
16:06
Speaker A
Okay. Well, I have a chapter called "[ __ ] the Spark," and it's all about this idea. Specifically, I debunk three myths about the spark. The first one is that the spark can't grow over time, and we know that's not true. A lot of great couples did not feel the spark in the beginning. And over the last week, as the book has gotten more popular, I've heard from people who say, "I knew my now husband for three years, we were friends, then we did this project together and started to like each other more, and now we're married." Or people, you know, I personally knew my husband for eig
16:18
Speaker A
her before also there's a bit of peak end rule in there right it ended up exactly yeah she was disproportionately remembering the end we haven't really talked about the book overall but so maybe we should actually backtrack just a bit Logan
16:34
Speaker A
would you mind just giving an overview you talked about the importance of not dying alone but but really what's the Practical takeaways that that people are going to have from reading the book yeah so I'll just start with the frame
16:47
Speaker A
which is that it's a step-by-step guide to Modern dating it starts with you're single you don't want to be how can we help you figure out what's holding you back there's a quiz about your dating blind spots and it's all
17:01
Speaker A
about saying what are the patterns of behavior that you're repeating that are getting in your way but that you can't identify on your own and let's help you overcome those and it goes into lots of stories about people who have had these
17:12
Speaker A
types and how they've overcome them and then it okay so then the first third of the book is getting ready it's all about teaching you what you need to know about your blind spots about attachment theory about what matters more and less than we
17:27
Speaker A
think for long-term relationships the second third is getting out there and it is how to use the dating app so that they work for you how to meet people in real life which is obviously will be more relevant after the pandemic
17:42
Speaker A
um [ __ ] the spark why you should go on the second date really just identifying things like deal breakers versus pet peeves and then the last third is okay now you're in a relationship how do you not lose it how do you not [ __ ] it
17:56
Speaker A
up and so it's about uh treating relationship transitions as decision points transitioning through them by deciding not sliding you know should we be exclusive what does that mean should we move in together and then there's these breakup chapters that people haven't
18:14
Speaker A
been asking me as many questions about but I really love the breakup chapters it's you know should I say or should I go how to break up with someone and then how to get over a breakup and then the
18:24
Speaker A
last chapter is if you didn't break up then should we get married and it asks you questions that you should ask yourself before getting married and then the last chapter is about this idea of intentional love how do you create a
18:34
Speaker A
relationship that shifts and evolves over time as the people in it evolve to and then I wanted to say this earlier but the whole frame of it is taking Behavioral Science as the lens so saying relationships are a series of decisions
18:49
Speaker A
you make good choices and you Propel yourself to a great relationship you make bad choices and you keep repeating the same patterns over and over and you end up in bad relationships or no relationships at all and so that's step
19:02
Speaker A
one it's about identifying those things and then of course we all know that information doesn't lead to action so the tips are based in Behavioral Science research so things like if you reinforce identity you can get someone to think of
19:16
Speaker A
themselves as a voter and vote well if you reinforce identity as a dater then you can get someone to actually overcome their hesitation and date that's the type of application that it uses well and that was part of the reason we we
19:29
Speaker A
wanted you on because I mean the the subtitle for the book The surprising science that will help you find love right I mean the the book is filled with Behavioral Science insights and on why we do what we do as it relates to these
19:46
Speaker A
dating faux pas and dating good things too as well I mean it's not just not just a list of all the things that that we screw up right it is a list of of both good and bad and helping out and I
19:58
Speaker A
really love that you bring in a bunch of these cognitive biases that we have right and and in particular he wrote um you know this idea of um I think it was chapter 12 where you're talking about um you know negativity bias and the
20:17
Speaker A
fundamental attribution error you kind of talk a lot about those two is there anything you talk about a lot throughout but but those two in general what were some of the key things for that yeah I will and then I would just say like you
20:29
Speaker A
know it's hard to talk about the book because it is so many things right like a lot of Big Ideas books are just like give and take some people are givers some people are takers here's what a matcher is and then the whole book is an
20:39
Speaker A
explosion but like this isn't just one idea it's a frame and then each chapter is like a stage of it and so yeah it is harder to summarize but I would just say for anyone listening like the tone is
20:49
Speaker A
kind of like a tough love coach and it's trying to be funny and it's trying to be helpful and like the book is a self-help book it has exercises it has things to do and so it's sort of trying to be like
21:00
Speaker A
you're not going to learn Behavioral Science 101 from the book and if you know Behavioral Science you're not going to be like Blown Away by the new research but it's really the application and the exercises that I think sets it
21:11
Speaker A
apart from being just a Love Guru book or trying to be like thinking fast and slow like it's somewhere in between I spend a lot of time debriefing with people after their dates and maybe many people do that's what you might do with
21:24
Speaker A
your friends but I've just done this on such a larger scale because I'm seeing so many dating coaching clients who are going on so many dates and then in our sessions a decent amount of time of the session is what dates have you been on
21:36
Speaker A
what happened are you seeing them again why or why not right and so I just know why people say yes I know why people say yes or no to Second dates which is some of the stuff we've talked about and one of the things
21:49
Speaker A
is that you know this idea of the fundamental attribution error that when someone is late we assume that they are a rude person or inconsiderate they just don't value you as opposed to if you're late you can identify the fact that you
22:04
Speaker A
really did try to leave but your Uber canceled on you twice and the subway was down and your car was broken and so it's very easy for you to justify your behavior but not theirs and so when you explain that to someone and you
22:19
Speaker A
help them see well what's the compassionate mode what's the compassionate way of seeing it and especially on a first date and it's just saying to someone you know give them another try if this person canceled on you five times before you even got to
22:30
Speaker A
the date and then showed up 20 minutes late and then did a bunch of other things yeah that's becoming a pattern I think you should be aware of that but instead of looking for reasons to say no especially if you're someone like the
22:40
Speaker A
guy that Tim mentioned who was 40 you know in his 40s and saying no to everyone how about shifting to reasons to say yes and um if you're familiar with the philosopher and writer and the creator of the School of Life Ellen De baton he
22:54
Speaker A
talks about um using your imagination and I think this is really good advice and he was talking more about like you know dating in your 50s and when maybe people aren't like as traditionally attractive as when you were dating in your 20s it's a
23:08
Speaker A
different thing but he was saying use your imagination to someone have a really beautiful smile do you love someone's eyes do you love the sound of their laugh and how can you become more creative about looking for the reasons
23:18
Speaker A
to say yes to someone versus saying no and that goes back to your question about the negativity bias and so this is the idea from um well I learned about it through Helen Fisher who's a biological Anthropologist and she talked about the fact that it's
23:33
Speaker A
actually a an evolutionarily smart move to look to basically be aware of negative things and so she said to me if you have five ex-girlfriends and one of them wants to kill you it's a good idea to know which one that is
23:49
Speaker A
that's a great example right yeah and so for theirs you know we if you think about it and I'm sure people have heard this before but you're getting feedback at your job and they tell you 10 good things and one bad thing and what keeps
24:04
Speaker A
you you know what are you thinking about later what are you reporting to your friends and family the one bad thing and we just really do focus on the bad thing and so the application here is if it's
24:13
Speaker A
so easy for your brain to go to the bad thing if it's so easy for your brain to find reasons to say no then you need to override that by actually looking for the reasons to say yes especially if you
24:24
Speaker A
are someone whose tendency is to be too picky then how can you actually work hard at finding reasons to say yes one of the things that I found fantastic were the appendices where you actually have these these these forms to fill out
24:44
Speaker A
right you have to answer the questions you really need to think about and and one of them was about uh the tough conversation if I remember correctly right the critical conversation and and what what reminded me it reminded me of
24:57
Speaker A
a conversation we had with Shelley archambeau who is the CEO of um of a high-tech company in Silicon Valley and as a young woman she had decided she was going to be a CEO so pretty much anybody she dated she needed to let them know
25:12
Speaker A
that the most successful CEOs have stay-at-home partners and so she had a critical conversation very early on in her relationship with Scotty her her husband to say if I'm I'm on this path and if we're gonna get together you're
25:27
Speaker A
gonna I'm gonna need you to be a stay-home dad are you cool with that and one of the things so I wanted to ask you how early do you need to have how early in the relationship do you need to have
25:38
Speaker A
this critical conversation because she had it very early on and it was very successful but that's just the N of one Tim I'm glad you really liked all of the Practical things the exercises throughout the book and the you know
25:50
Speaker A
what you referenced The crucial conversations planning Doc in the appendix and this is something that I actually started doing for myself for work conversations and so I would find that I was like I really want to pitch something to my manager at work
26:02
Speaker A
I need to figure out how am I going to start the conversation what do I want from it where could it go wrong what point do I want to end on what do I want my tone to be and just spending 30
26:13
Speaker A
minutes before an important meeting and this wasn't all the time this was a few times a year I just felt like those conversations went really well and sort of the takeaway there is that if something's important to you why
26:25
Speaker A
wouldn't you prep for it and a conversation is an important moment and so I've created a version of this for conversations in general but in the book I apply it to hard conversations and I specifically made it in the book for a
26:39
Speaker A
breakup and so I have a whole chapter about how to break up with someone compassionately and then you can frame your breakup in terms of this crucial conversation stock but your question is about in general I think when you bring
26:50
Speaker A
up something hard and so there's a few directions I can take this and so one is I have a chapter about decide don't slide and this is the idea that there's two different ways to transition through relationship Milestones some couples decide they have
27:05
Speaker A
intentional conversations some couples slide and they're just sort of on this relationship escalator and they move to the next floor and so deciding might be I think we should move in together here's my reasons why moving into me
27:19
Speaker A
means let's see how we get along it's not a guarantee that we're going to get married it's just the next stage what is moving in mean to you and then maybe the person says to me it means we're going
27:29
Speaker A
to get married and then they say oh well seems like we should talk about this more before doing it because we're not on the same page sliding would be well my lease is up in two months and I'm
27:38
Speaker A
spending a lot of time here should I just move in and then the other person's like yeah how much is your rent okay yeah yeah let's just save money and move it together I'm not saying that that's not practically important but can you
27:48
Speaker A
also have the conversation around what it means to you and so the research shows that couples that decide their way through transitions are happier more successful and actually have fewer incidents of infidelity and so it's really interesting to think about how can you
28:06
Speaker A
decide your way through each moment so in the book I identified two of these big decision points two relationship Milestones defining the relationship so things like are we exclusive what does exclusivity mean to us um are we monogamous
28:21
Speaker A
um all of those different things and you know do we have labels Etc and then moving in together but people should do this throughout the relationship and so I think for your question you're asking when is the first time to kind of have
28:33
Speaker A
some of these serious conversations so one conversation might be you know what are your intentions like a lot of times people say to me I've been dating for a while like I'm ready to find someone how do I tell that to
28:47
Speaker A
someone else without coming on too strong and so for them it's sort of an art of how do you show the self-awareness without being needy how do you say something like hey I know that I'm looking to get married and have
28:59
Speaker A
kids in a few years what are you looking for versus hey don't waste my time like are you just trying to have fun or what like right like you don't want to be like accusatory or putting the person in
29:11
Speaker A
a backing them into a corner you just want to be self-aware and say like this is where I'm at where are you at um the other thing that's happened during the pandemic is that people are actually having hard conversations much
29:21
Speaker A
earlier than they would have otherwise because you need to talk about covet safety you need to say will you be wearing a mask are you living with anyone who's at risk um will we be socially distancing I mean
29:33
Speaker A
even you know first kisses were already sort of hard for people now you are literally navigating a safety protocol and so it's just you know people are having hard conversations earlier but I would actually say that's a good thing
29:46
Speaker A
because you can wean out people that aren't good at having hard conversations and having hard conversations is important for long-term relationship success yeah yeah so I want to go it you bring up a really interesting piece about maximizers and satisfizers in in
30:03
Speaker A
the book and it's just a it's a wonderful concept of just thinking about this but it it hit me because I we we've known people like this and and I think uh you you mentioned it a little bit
30:16
Speaker A
when Tim was talking about you know his his personal they're either romanticizer or maximizer on this can you tell tell our listeners what what is maximizes versus satisfires and tell us the difference and is it is one better than
30:28
Speaker A
the other when it comes to dating yeah so I'll go through this quickly but yeah basically in the book I have a framework called the three dating Tendencies and these are a collection of the most common dating blind spots and they each
30:39
Speaker A
have unrealistic expectations of relationships and so I said this word before but the romanticizer they have unrealistic expectations of relationships they think it will all be the honeymoon period the falling in love they think Love Will Find Them it won't
30:52
Speaker A
require effort there's a soulmate for them when they find them everything will be perfect and that if the relationship itself feels like work then they're doing it wrong and the maximizer is someone who has unrealistic expectations of their
31:07
Speaker A
partner and so they're always wondering could I be five percent happier is there someone out there who's five percent hotter five percent funnier five percent more ambitious and they really feel like they want to turn over every stone and
31:19
Speaker A
then find the perfect person and they're obsessed with the objective right decision and then the last one is the hesitator they have unrealistic expectations of themselves and these are people who don't put themselves out there aren't going on dates and they
31:31
Speaker A
have a story in their head that goes like I'll be ready to date when when I lose 10 pounds when I have a more impressive job title when I figure out my apartment situation and there's always like someday in the future when
31:44
Speaker A
they'll be ready to date but it's not now and of course they're underestimating the opportunity cost of getting better at dating and figuring out who they want to be with and so specifically the maximizer that's definitely the majority of my clients I
31:56
Speaker A
think a lot of our cultural Norms right now are pushing people towards being a maximizer but the maximizer satisficer concept comes from this guy Herbert Simon in the 1950s a sociologist and he says that satisficers set a bar they have a certain
32:15
Speaker A
expectation and then when that expectation is met then they make that choice and they commit to it and a maximizer is always wondering what else is out there and the maximizer is obsessed with the objective right decision and the satisficer is more
32:29
Speaker A
concerned or at least benefits from the subjective experience of making a decision that they're happy about and so in the book I give the example of somebody who is looking for an espresso machine and the maximizer spends many
32:41
Speaker A
hours reading reviews they get the Breville espresso machine that wire cutter recommends it arrives they realize that occasionally the coffee tastes a little bit tart you know for the reason that reviewer number 22 mentioned and they sort of regret the
32:59
Speaker A
decision and they're stewing over their brewing and then you have the satisficer that said oh I've heard of Nespresso that seems like a good brand they walk into the Nespresso store they look at a few models they pick one in their price
33:11
Speaker A
range they leave it and they say oh I love my espresso machine and it's not that they're any less smart it's that they found something that satisfied them and they committed to it and they feel good about the decision and so
33:22
Speaker A
maximizers think that they're always right and that they're doing life right because it's all about the objective right choice but really who's happier the satisficer with their Nespresso machine or the person who's slightly upset about the Breville and so
33:38
Speaker A
in dating I see so many maximizers and they just would be happier if they were satisfyers it doesn't mean that they settle it means that you set a bar you figure out the kind of person you want to be with
33:49
Speaker A
and then when you find someone like that you commit to them and you make it work and I after doing research for my book and really thinking about this concept have tried to be as satisficer and it's been going really well I bought a car
34:01
Speaker A
which is the biggest thing I've ever bought in 48 hours and it felt great and I really like my car and I wasn't I never worry about oh if I had done four months more of research would I
34:12
Speaker A
have liked my car more instead I'm just like oh I'm really glad that I bought this car and it it suits my needs and it was also a pleasant experience of buying it well as part of the book too you
34:23
Speaker A
bring up them the secretary problem which I thought was a fascinating way of looking at this satisficing but with some hard kind of analytical ways of doing it kind of an algorithm can you tell tell our listeners about that yeah
34:36
Speaker A
absolutely and I should give credit to the book algorithms to live by which is where I learned about this and also they it was their idea to apply it and so in algorithms to live by they talk about
34:45
Speaker A
the secretary problem and so this is a mathematical riddle in which you're saying to someone you have 100 applicants to become your secretary you have to interview them one at a time after each one you say yes or no and so
34:58
Speaker A
the kind of mathematical part is this optimal stop Theory at what point should you stop and say this person is good enough right because if you go on for too long then maybe all the good people are at
35:10
Speaker A
the beginning if you choose to quickly you don't know who else was out there and so the mathematically correct answer is 37 after 37 you should say who is the single best applicant of the group and that person is now your meaningful
35:26
Speaker A
Benchmark and then you hire the next person who is as good or better than that initial Benchmark and so the idea here is you get a sense of what's out there and then you choose someone in that category and so with dating
35:40
Speaker A
um they say it like this you won't know how many people you're going to date total but you might estimate how many people how many years you're going to be dating so let's say you're dating from 18 to 40.
35:51
Speaker A
what's 37 of those years it's 26.1 so after 26.1 years you've dated enough people to have a meaningful Benchmark so sit down and say who is the single best person now you have that Benchmark and then you commit to the next person you
36:05
Speaker A
meet who you like as much or more than that person and sometimes people hear this and they roll their eyes and they're like I'm past 26.1 and this is so rational and they're just like they even defect them saying 26.1 is annoying
36:19
Speaker A
to them but the whole point is that you've already dated someone who probably would make a pretty good partner and that it's not about meeting everyone in the world it's about finding someone committing to them and hopefully that helps them see that
36:33
Speaker A
they're not going to feel 100 certain about someone it's about choosing a person and committing and I just think people you know to use more annoying percentages I think people have this obsession with partner selection like it's 99 partner selection and one
36:45
Speaker A
percent making it work but that's just not true a lot of relationships is once you've found someone putting the effort in to make it work yeah yeah I love it bring all those statistics on by the way I think that's
36:55
Speaker A
fantastic um I I hope you don't mind that we're like totally bouncing around there's nothing really you know contiguous about this but one of the things uh that I was that I think listeners might be interested is hearing about the Monet
37:09
Speaker A
effect which is a really cool aspect of which you you coined right this is this is your little Diddy uh tell us about the Monet effect yeah so one common issue that I was seeing in dating is that people match on the apps
37:24
Speaker A
and then they text for a really long time and they think that oh this is a safety thing I'm just getting to know them I want to know their personality but what's happening is that they're building up the person in their head and
37:36
Speaker A
they're creating a fantasy of them and then when they meet that person even if the person is great they're disappointed because the person isn't great in the way that the fantasy of them suggested and so one of the reasons
37:50
Speaker A
why is this idea that when our brains have incomplete information they fill in the gaps with more positive information and so let's say Tim wrote in his dating profile I like music my brain goes oh I bet we like the same music and if you do
38:06
Speaker A
that over and over again I'm constantly creating this fantasy of you I'm creating this idea of of you in a more positive light and you know this is you know for people who aren't familiar with Monet his paintings
38:19
Speaker A
um utilize a technique where up close it's a bunch of of little dots or specs but then far away it looks really good and so the idea here is from far away it looks perfect and up close and this is a
38:30
Speaker A
quote from Clueless up close it's a big old mess and so you know you're projecting this image of perfection and then up close you don't like it and so the solution is to get to the date faster stop these like you know three
38:43
Speaker A
week four week you know month-long text change because you're just going to contribute to the Monet effect and you're much better off actually just meeting up with the person or doing a video date and having a true sense of
38:54
Speaker A
who they are and not letting this Monet effect affect you and then your listeners might be interested in hearing how this affects CEO hiring which is that when a company is hiring a CEO they can choose from an
39:06
Speaker A
internal promotion or an external person well with the external people you only know their wins you only know the positives and when you hear about their resume you hear CTO you fill in the gaps and say oh it must have been a CTO for
39:19
Speaker A
many years and doing a great job whereas like in reality maybe they were the CTO at like a startup One Summer and then with the internal candidate you know the good and the bad and so what we see in the research is that external
39:31
Speaker A
CEOs are hired at larger salaries but often perform worse than internal hires and it's because that hiring committee is being affected by the Monet effect and filling in the gaps to make that candidate seem more positive than they
39:45
Speaker A
actually are yeah that's that's fantastic which is which is what you know I I love about you know Tim is as I I you know you appreciate me from a distance yeah it's like as long as you're far away
40:00
Speaker A
you're really good so there you go maybe Zoom is a good medium for you yes it really is it's perfect our relationship thrives because of it Logan there is one other sort of a slightly off topic thing that I'd like to ask you about and that
40:15
Speaker A
is uh you've engaged in kind of a communal living experience oh yeah and can can you just talk a little bit about that I don't I don't want to you know be uncomfortably specific so that's why I'm kind of being generally sure yeah I mean
40:30
Speaker A
Kurt do you know what he's talking about the reason why I live here is like Shades Darker than what you might think [Laughter] what did you want to share let's hear it's fine yeah um yeah so last year at
40:46
Speaker A
the beginning of the pandemic my fiance now husband was diagnosed with a rare form of bone cancer and so you know this was like spring of last year just like as things were really getting very chaotic and um
41:03
Speaker A
yeah he had to have a below the knee uh leg amputation and it's been like a very dramatic incident in our life and we had like a last minute wedding in the park um we even had like a foot roast where
41:17
Speaker A
all of our friends made fun of him made fun of cancer made fun of amputations and you know trying to do our best to have some levity but you know it was really hard he was in the hospital a lot
41:27
Speaker A
like really intense chemo and I was very isolated and so one day we went to visit our friends Kristen and Phil and Kristen as behavioral scientist Kristen Berman and they start this co-owned communal living living place where it's a a communal
41:45
Speaker A
house a communal kitchen a communal backyard and then some one-bedroom apartments and we were just like oh they're having so much fun they're living life like you know we should move in and we got really lucky they had a
41:56
Speaker A
one bedroom on the first floor that was just opening up and so last August we moved in and it's been amazing and we've had a ton of support and I love being around Kristen and Phil they're very old
42:07
Speaker A
friends of ours we have some other close friends who live here we've become close with the other people and I just wrote this article that came out in January in the New York Times Modern Love column called we needed more significant others
42:19
Speaker A
and this is the idea that people nowadays expect to get all of their needs met by their significant other and you know oftentimes our significant other can't or isn't interested in meeting those needs right so things like you love talking about
42:33
Speaker A
sports but your partner's not interested or you want to work out and your partner doesn't like doing that and so you should look for these Osos these other significant others who can fill those roles and so the thesis of the
42:45
Speaker A
article is that we all need Osos especially right now and that radish this community that Kristen and Phil started has really been like the best Oso solution to a really challenging time and you know my hope with people reading
43:01
Speaker A
that is that even though maybe not everybody wants to live in a commune um but like how can you find more of these people in your life and how can you invest in those relationships well and particularly as you said in these
43:11
Speaker A
trying times right where you you might have had some of those Osos is that the the right term for for that in in your life beforehand like you'd go after work and you go hang out with some people
43:23
Speaker A
from work and you'd get that Sports Talk or you'd get that uh you know uh whatever it is that you you need from from that person that you don't it isn't happening now and so I think we need to
43:35
Speaker A
be very intentional and I love you know when we talked with Kristen about this this she didn't go into all of the the nice uh explanation of it she just yeah we we all live together and and you know
43:47
Speaker A
share the the work and on different pieces of it so it's it's fantastic to to have those communities and to build them and particularly in this time we need to be really purposeful about trying to make sure that we get those
44:03
Speaker A
people in our lives and again to your point maybe not everybody living in a commune but there are definitely things that you can do in order to make sure you keep those connections that if you have them or build those connections if
44:15
Speaker A
you don't yeah and I should say I get well in the article I was sure to mention that we have extremely strict code protocol everybody works from home they are very conscious of the fact that my husband's going through chemo and so
44:28
Speaker A
you know we have you know knock on wood no no covet incidents nothing in it everyone takes it very very very seriously and so far it's been a safe and really happy way to spend the pandemic well you know as we talk about
44:43
Speaker A
the you know the pods that we have if you know this is your extended family now and so that's that's what that is and I think uh again one of the things that we talked about with Kristen is
44:53
Speaker A
that hey this would have been something at the beginning of of when this all happened that could have been encouraged with uh through through the government or other factors to say pick this this pod that you are going to to be around
45:10
Speaker A
and to make sure because there is this element of loneliness and isolation that happens with the uh quarantines and and just general social distancing that's going on so um it's one of those learnings that you know if if or when you know another
45:25
Speaker A
pandemic hits those are some things that we ought to be thinking about in advance though yeah absolutely um yeah I mean I think the point is not everybody wants to live in a commune but Osos would be great for everyone and
45:38
Speaker A
what are you doing to find your Osos to invest in them to ask for help and all of that you know we'd like to talk about music and we don't want to put anybody on the spot so let me just say that
45:48
Speaker A
Logan and uh and I'm saying that because I don't want anybody to be nervous about it but we're just kind of curious about what's on your playlist right now and you know do you have a coveted playlist anything change you know uh pre-pandemic
46:03
Speaker A
to during pandemic yeah so I did mention this to Tim and Kurt before but I would not consider myself cool about music I like music right there's people who don't really like music but you know I split my time
46:15
Speaker A
between listening to my Spotify playlists and podcasts with probably a lot of time on podcasts um yeah I tend to like certain albums or certain musicians and then play them over and over again and so I've really liked
46:29
Speaker A
Chance the Rapper since his 2016 album coloring book and so I've I've listened to that many many times and you know whenever he has a new song I'll listen to it over and over again but yeah I basically I have a playlist called
46:41
Speaker A
feeling great and it's sort of a mindset reset and I've been adding songs to it for the last three or four years before I gave a TED Talk I would jam out to it before I have a big interview I listen
46:55
Speaker A
to it and it's songs that make me feel great it's jump It's pump up songs I'm always looking for other people's feeling great songs um on Spotify if I listen to something I'll move it to the like liked songs and
47:06
Speaker A
then if it's good enough on like songs I'll move it to feeling great and so you know it's gotten pretty long but I'll listen to it over and over and over again and so I'm really not finding that
47:17
Speaker A
much new music I'm more using music to get into a mood and these are songs some of them I've like you know since I was in fifth grade and the last thing I'll say embarrassingly is that when Spotify
47:28
Speaker A
gave me my artists of the decade for like let's say I started listening in 2011 and to 2020 it was the Hamilton original recording and so probably from October 2016 when I first saw the show until let's say April
47:48
Speaker A
2017 when I saw the show again I did not listen to any other music other than Hamilton and so that was enough to make it my artist of the decade even though now I'm like very sick of those songs
47:59
Speaker A
and I've kind of been taking a break from it since spring of 2017. well so which brings me to my my question on that because you do you're talking like you listen to something for a long time and we talked about the mere exposure
48:12
Speaker A
effect at the very beginning right and this idea that the more you you see something and hear something the more you like it but there is a a point where it with music with with many things if you get inundated with it too much it
48:27
Speaker A
can actually have the counter effect and so obviously you you reach that point with Hamilton do you reach that with with others or are you just not listening to things quite enough or is there enough uh variance in in your listening habits
48:43
Speaker A
that you don't think it's it's taking place it's honestly a good point and I I do you know Seth Stevens davidowitz yeah you know who he is he wrote the book everybody lies yes yeah he's one of my close friends and I love the way he
48:57
Speaker A
thinks and he's so funny and he wrote this really cool article a few years ago for the New York Times where he analyzed spotify's data and he found that that people often listen to the songs that were popular when they were 13 and 14.
49:11
Speaker A
and right going through this intense hormonal change music starts to feel so intense to you like my song from that time is the song Glycerine by Bush do you know and it was like I don't know if other people feel this way about it but
49:24
Speaker A
to me it's like the most intense song I've ever heard because like I was going through whatever emotional thing some eighth grade breakup at the time and so you just keep revisiting the songs from when you were 13 because you have these
49:35
Speaker A
emotional connections to them and then I have heard through the grapevine that at Spotify they've seen that people are revisiting old favorites more than usual because we seek out familiar music and movies and TV shows Etc when the world
49:51
Speaker A
is very chaotic and so I'm sure that there's like some sort of uh graph that Seth could tell you that's like in the beginning you don't like a song then you hear it a bunch and you really like it
50:03
Speaker A
at a certain point you get sick of it you need this many months off from it and then when you hear it again you're like oh yeah I'm really glad that I that I'm hearing that song again yeah yeah
50:11
Speaker A
that's fantastic and the Neuroscience backs that up by the way the Neuroscience actually says that we the the imprint the the the like I think it's it's a little broader time range but that there is an imprint that music
50:23
Speaker A
makes on our brain that's indelible basically um yeah uh we are doing a little bit of informal uh research for Melanie Brooks at Columbia uh she's interested in finding out whether people listen to music when they work and so we want to
50:38
Speaker A
ask you do you listen to music when you work I prefer to not have any noise around me when I work if there is sound otherwise then I have to play Something to tune it out so I wrote a lot of my book
50:54
Speaker A
at a wework and it was pretty noisy especially I would work near kind of the micro kitchen area and so I would play the same playlist over and over again of You Know instrumental music without words but I guess that's what
51:08
Speaker A
instrumental music means um I would play instrumental music and I would listen you know same pattern I would listen to it over and over again it kind of just became like the white noise and then I also have some like
51:21
Speaker A
weird hippie YouTube videos that are like you know Reiki soundtracks or energy healing I don't know I just feel like they're like intense enough tones that they block out loud neighbors or traffic or things like that but yeah my
51:32
Speaker A
vote would be no music you fit with lots of lots of the people that we've talked to right it's it's no or if they do it is instrumental non-vocal um elements that that do it's more it acts more as that white noise as you
51:49
Speaker A
said than than others so all right Logan this has been fantastic thank you so much it's been fun really fun yeah and I think it great insights and and we appreciate so much the the work that you've done and and particularly you
52:06
Speaker A
know bringing the Behavioral Science cleanse as you said into into dating because hey granted I'm not in that in that world and thankfully I'm not because I don't know if I could manage today's craziness we didn't even talk
52:20
Speaker A
about apps we didn't even talk about any of the you know the all this other stuff but yeah yeah so but thank you and appreciate it yeah it was really fun thank you Tim thank you Kurt it was a great conversation
52:35
Speaker A
foreign session where Tim Christina and I are going to groove on what we learned from our discussion with Logan have a free-flowing conversation and talk about whatever else comes into our Disney fantasize romanticized brains okay we're gonna have to come back to
52:53
Speaker A
that wait I'm not sure if everybody is on the Disney romance oh come on you weren't impacted by watching all of those Disney movies growing up where the the prince comes and Saves The Princess and everything they live happily ever
53:07
Speaker A
after well I definitely was I guess Tim is just too old okay so let's quickly get back to why we invited the ever amazing Christina gravert to join us because it is so wonderful to have you with us today well guys I'm so
53:26
Speaker A
glad to be here so let's get that out of the way first okay well listeners there are a few reasons first we invited Christine here because we read an article that Christina wrote in behavioral scientists about online dating and how it's like Game Theory
53:42
Speaker A
where she mentions Logan and then we saw that she had also interviewed Logan about her books for a second piece for the behavior scientist so you've got quite a bit of background on her don't you I definitely do
53:58
Speaker A
Behavioral Science and dating especially online is something that has always fast so I was super excited when this opportunity to chat with her came up yeah good and you're an economist so you study decision making in a wide variety
54:12
Speaker A
of situations right especially those with uncertain outcomes and I think that all that qualifies you to weigh in on this I'd say doesn't it Christina well perhaps my insights as an economists are a bit less relevant here than my insights as a woman who has
54:27
Speaker A
spent quite some time on dating apps and successfully so I have to say yeah and as far as I know you two have been happily married for quite some time maybe even longer than dating apps exist isn't that yeah
54:44
Speaker A
so you you make a sound sound really old which in fact is a very true statement and yes we we we did do this well before dating apps at least I did I think Logan's book really covers so
54:58
Speaker A
many interesting insights and also a lot of fun anecdotes that I'm so looking forward to diving into lettuce group where should we start well maybe we should start with Kurt's crazy idea that all of us are bought into this fantasy
55:10
Speaker A
and Christina you're agreeing already that all those Disney movies did you have Disney movies growing up in Germany for sure right in Germany we even dubbed the movie so we even have German songs for all of the movies
55:26
Speaker A
okay learn something new today yeah well you know what I thought was really interesting and in part of the conversation but as well as within the book is this idea of these these personalities that we have right we have
55:39
Speaker A
that romanticizer the the idea that hey love should be this disney-esque type of relationship that just you get that spark it falls into place yeah you know your Sleeping Beauty and the prince comes and kisses you and wakes you up
55:55
Speaker A
and you have Happily Ever Ever After and there's no work involved right or that maximizer piece which she talked about where it was looking for that five percent more every time um you know all of these types of things
56:09
Speaker A
I think are really important when we think about is that going to get us the best relationship and is that really just some faulty perceptions on our part about what dating and love really really is it reminds me of Eli finkel's description
56:28
Speaker A
about the different phases and eras of relationships right and how it's only in recent years basically sort of since World War II that we've really gotten into believing that developed this idea that that our partner Bears this responsibility to help us in our own
56:46
Speaker A
quest for self-fulfillment and self-identity and and so it makes sense that that if that's the ethos of of our general Global culture that it's going to be harder to fulfill that maximizers are going to be naturally sort of coming out of the
57:03
Speaker A
woodwork maybe even romanticizers are going to be even even bigger I don't know Christina how you're you know we still pretty close you're a lot closer to the dating world than we are put it that way so I guess it could also be
57:17
Speaker A
that we develop over time right that maybe first for romanticizers because we have this we haven't really experienced relationship so we have an experience that the setbacks or the reality of a relationship I think there's also some research when we think about the
57:32
Speaker A
anticipatory utility of maybe going on vacation right that we think like oh it's gonna be fantastic it's going to be perfect and then once we're there we come to the realization that yes some things are really great but some things
57:44
Speaker A
are maybe also not that great and we developed maybe a bit more of a realistic understanding but I guess that could also lead us to become then more maximizers that we feel that this just wasn't the right relationship so we need
57:56
Speaker A
to find somebody better and then with that other better person it's going to be even better than before yeah I think that's a really interesting piece I know for my for myself I mean I I ended up marrying later in life after
58:11
Speaker A
having gone through a couple relationships and I think those relationships taught me a lot I I think I would have been a very different person if one of those first relationships would have worked because you mean like like different in your
58:27
Speaker A
relationship with with Aaron or just different in my my relationship I think different just uh in a wide variety of pieces because you learn a lot from experiencing what those relationships were like and then in in retrospection in looking back at them you realize yeah
58:49
Speaker A
it's not all Just Wine and Roses it's not all chocolates and truffles it is hard work and it's being disappointed with somebody but still having you know feelings for them and moving forward and what are all of those pieces of that
59:06
Speaker A
relationship aspect that you need to pull together and to realize that this is something that you have to put time and energy and effort into in order for it to succeed and I don't know if I understood that when I was 19 years old
59:24
Speaker A
if when I was 20 years old so Christine I agree that that growth part of this it might be that you start off with this romanticized ideal of what it should be like but the world kind of throws things
59:38
Speaker A
at you and hopefully way you can learn from that and don't just double down and and not have that that realistic perspective Kurt maybe also the film so Tim just mentioned that that Eli Finkel talks about this self-fulfillment
59:54
Speaker A
through the relationship so that it's something that that makes you better and helps you grow maybe if you get married a little bit later in life and have experienced more of that and have grown as a person without somebody else but
60:06
Speaker A
actually by yourself maybe then you're also less likely to to want that out of a relationship and are actually maybe more happy with what you have because it's a part of your life but it's not the part of your life
60:17
Speaker A
that makes you grow as a person okay so how does that play into Logan's talking about this idea that that mathematically when we get to 37 like if we estimate Our dating life to be you know from you know 18 to 28 and 37
60:33
Speaker A
percent or whatever it was is 26.1 years uh you know she's kind of saying don't worry about it like get to get to that point where you've had something really good and then whatever the next relationship that comes along that sort
60:47
Speaker A
of matches that then you adopt that in some ways it isn't that sort of counter to where where we're talking about it takes all this abundance of experiments the experience to learn no I think what she's saying is actually that it takes
61:00
Speaker A
that experience that you you can't expect to find that within that first percentage of of the dates that you go on that there is this learning curve of of life that you need to go through now I might be wrong in that probably am
61:15
Speaker A
wrong in that but there is there is that peace where you know what what I found interesting was the mathematics behind what people go should be this or not should be but I think what people often feel is like
61:32
Speaker A
uh it should be this natural thing I shouldn't have to really be purposeful about going out and finding love it should just happen and it when I talk to my wife about this she's like going well that sounds really clinical
61:46
Speaker A
it does it sounds really clinical it sounds like you know but I think there's there's some really good research behind it and I think for people that are struggling with this that's it's a great kind of rule of thumb to look at
62:02
Speaker A
I mean I agree that you can think about it that way in my discussion with Logan I even asked her if they were thinking about putting that as a feature in the app maybe saying okay he looks through
62:12
Speaker A
100 profiles maybe it's time to choose somebody to at least meet for a date I mean you're married to that person but maybe at least after looking at 100 people you can go and choose one there's only 300 people in your area so this
62:24
Speaker A
might be a good idea but I also find it a bit hard because if you think about how do I know there's 300 people in my area or a thousand people right if you think about that she talks about it saying okay it's your age
62:40
Speaker A
and that maybe at 26 you should be done looking and then try to choose somebody but it there's other ways of thinking about this problem saying well what are who are all the people that I could potentially date and I mean if you think
62:52
Speaker A
about everybody in your age range in the whole world that you could potentially meet by traveling or in your town or in your country or and I think once you get to that then it gets a little bit overwhelming and
63:05
Speaker A
you're like well what's the right reference point to say when have I reached 37 yeah and I think there's an interesting piece that you bring up it's like so what is the pool that you're pulling from and and again I'm not
63:19
Speaker A
familiar with dating apps but I have a good friend who actually used one of them and he ended up dating this woman so we're in Minneapolis he ended up dating this woman from Baltimore because he had opened up some some feature of
63:34
Speaker A
the app she didn't know that he was from Minneapolis to begin with and so they ended up with this long distance relationship and now they're married and have a have a beautiful child and and all these different pieces but that you
63:47
Speaker A
just brought up this really big piece there might be 300 people in your community but because of Technology there is probably a larger pool so how do you draw the line where do you draw the line in various different pieces of
63:59
Speaker A
that well and I want to get back to Christina's comment that you don't know how many people are in the community so hinge doesn't tell you based on your search criteria there's X number of candidates for you you know in in your
64:15
Speaker A
geography it it doesn't actually give you a number no it doesn't give you a number guess these apps also want to be attractive to daters right so you don't really want to tell daters how many people are available but from experience
64:28
Speaker A
I can say there is an end to each app and at some point it'll show you the same people again there's not an unlimited amount of people that you can actually reach on a dating app this sounds like you're
64:41
Speaker A
speaking from experience there well actually Christina I want to get to some of your your stuff on Game Theory and using Game Theory as part of this dating piece so talk a little bit about that well when I
64:55
Speaker A
started teaching my lecture in Game Theory I thought well this is really an interesting way to yeah make Game Theory a little bit more applicable to my students because we talk about oil auctions and telecommunication auctions and prisoners dilemmas but I mean all
65:12
Speaker A
these things are not really relevant to the average University student um and boring super boring too true true so I tried to find some interesting texts on that and I found a little bit online but I thought I have to think sister a bit
65:26
Speaker A
more so that's why when I decided to write this piece and of course I was also on the dating apps looking around and I was trying to find some type of strategy to well narrow it down there's so many people that you could
65:38
Speaker A
potentially be dating and well you can only go on so many dates um especially during a worldwide pandemic so you really need to make sure that you're not wasting your time so so from a game theory perspective what are
65:53
Speaker A
some of the strategies that we could that that our listeners could potentially use if they are thinking about dating and particularly in using a dating app so I think really one of the most important parts is choosing the
66:05
Speaker A
right app right because you want to find the right sample of people there are apps that are a bit more known for casual hookups or just for having fun and then there are apps like for example hint where Logan Works which are a bit
66:19
Speaker A
more more catering towards the people who actually want to find somebody so they have this tagline called design to be deleted so I mean that definitely speaks to people and also in my conversation with her she said that
66:32
Speaker A
really matters so they really find that people who come to their app are people who are looking for something serious but that of course is not something that everybody has to do some people really just want to hook up with somebody and
66:43
Speaker A
have some fun and they're maybe 21 and want to meet a lot of people on the weekend so then maybe for them an app like Tinder is more appropriate uh so I think that already gives you a good selection of the type of people on
66:56
Speaker A
the app um and then I think in the next round you'll have to think about what well you have to think about two things one thing is your own profile like what am I trying to signal to other users how am I
67:10
Speaker A
trying to show myself and what's special about me compared to these hundreds of other women um and then secondly you have to think about okay what are the types of people that I want to match up with and it
67:22
Speaker A
might not be very romantic I agree but putting some criteria on what you think could be the right match for you um that's the only way to go well you talked about cheap cheap talk right this idea of watching out for cheap talk
67:36
Speaker A
those those signals that are really cheap for people to do versus you know more expensive um signals explain a little bit about that yeah so there's this idea of cheap Talk versus costly signaling and cheap talk is pretty much anything that I can
67:52
Speaker A
say on an app but that cannot be verified right I could say oh I'm an extremely adventurous person and I love hiking on the weekend but who knows I mean I might be a couch potato and sit home all the time if I
68:05
Speaker A
actually have a picture of myself jumping out of an airplane or on top of a mountain then I actually have to climb that mountain in order to get that picture so that means it's a costly signal because if I'm Not The
68:17
Speaker A
Adventurous types it's quite expensive for me to have that type of activity only to get a picture of myself where I'm doing that I love that it reminded me of I've talked to women who have used dating apps at in Minnesota and they said we're
68:32
Speaker A
really tired of seeing photographs of men with with their their the dead fish that they have just caught like okay anybody in Minnesota can fish there's 10 000 Lakes so you you know that's not you're not differentiating yourself that
68:48
Speaker A
way but that's a really interesting point I think so a few stating apps in different countries right when you're traveling and then you see that different cities have very different things that they like so particularly so for example in Berlin there's a lot of
69:04
Speaker A
black and white pictures a very like artsy clubbing type of pictures then in Copenhagen there's a lot of men on boats I mean that's really the thing here in San Diego of course everybody's a surfer or somehow Outdoors hiking
69:19
Speaker A
activities so yeah you can really tell where you are in the world by seeing what do people prioritize and what do they put on their dating profile oh that is fascinating wow just it just makes me want to dive into that you also talked
69:33
Speaker A
about uh dominant strategies right dominant strategies are the the strategies that are most likely to win right and and are they different for men and women yeah so the dominant strategy is really what what should I play which is the
69:49
Speaker A
best response to whatever anybody else could be doing right and this can be in a heterosexual situation uh when we talk about men and women could make sense for the men to actually just swipe right on everybody because they get so few
70:02
Speaker A
matches that if they would first look at every picture decide if they would like this girl then swipe right then move on to the next one it would take them far too long to get any type of matches but
70:13
Speaker A
for most women it's actually the other way around right they get a lot of matches so for them it makes more sense to first look at the picture decide if they would like to talk to this person and only swipe right in order to get a
70:24
Speaker A
match if they actually decided that they would talk to them so it's really about what do I think is the best use of my time and for most men it makes more sense too afterwards check but before that just try to get as many
70:36
Speaker A
matches as possible it reminds me of two things uh first is uh Roy baumister and Kathleen voss's work on the economics of sex right uh sort of who has who has what utility and where where they were supplying where
70:51
Speaker A
there's there's demand and I'll we'll put a link to that in the show notes because I think that that's an interesting read but just for the sake of full disclosure I've only been married for five and a half years so uh
71:01
Speaker A
so I was married and divorced and had a period in my life in my recent history where I was single and I went to do some speed dating nights and had a night where uh there were 13 men and 13 women
71:17
Speaker A
and one woman was just stunningly beautiful very very attractive and also very uh Laden as as far as I could see with big jewels and this very shabby chic kind of look so she at a glance the Monet effect like from far away she
71:35
Speaker A
looked like she was just dressed in jeans and a t-shirt third but as you said across from her I noticed that the T-shirt was a designer t-shirt that just had just the right you know tears in it was probably a 250 dollar t-shirt and at
71:48
Speaker A
the end of the night all of the all the men rate who they like to connect with and all the women right who they'd like to connect with and all the men except me chose this particular woman who was
71:59
Speaker A
stunningly beautiful and and I didn't know this until the guy that leads the speed dating comes up to me afterwards and he says Tim are you okay is there anything wrong you you know I'm like no everything's great and he said you
72:14
Speaker A
didn't choose this this particularly stunning woman he said I thought everybody would want to match with her I said she just looked like a a train wreck to me you know like it was just not going to be a good match her
72:26
Speaker A
lifestyle and my lifestyle just weren't going to match up and he said oh I said did she did she choose anybody any of the men and he said no not one of them so most of the men were adopting the the
72:38
Speaker A
dominant their strategy of they were swiping right basically because they were hoping to get a hit and she adopted her strategy of choosing no one and I said you got your strategy from watching a beautiful mind right where John Nash
72:54
Speaker A
is in the bar the beautiful blonde comes in the four burnettes and he says we have to go for the brunettes otherwise uh nobody's gonna get anybody exactly what the dominant strategy is for that it's it's that's perfect game
73:07
Speaker A
theory I mean the inventor of Game Theory right there well it reminds me again I'm I started dating well before apps and different things but I remember actually being out one time and I think this is kind of uh applicable to this
73:20
Speaker A
and and we were out and within our group there was this tall blonde woman who again very attractive and we were out dancing at a club in in San Diego actually we were down in San Diego and we were watching we were out there and
73:35
Speaker A
and she said just watch this and she just like over you know she's a little bit taller she looked over across the the Dance Floor she pointed painted at this that this guy turned her finger around and just did a little wag with
73:47
Speaker A
her finger to come here and the guy like literally just wove through out the the Dance Floor to come over and you know it was just that much peace and I said I don't care how good I looked um which I
73:58
Speaker A
obviously don't there was no way that I could ever like point at a woman like that and just do that and have a woman come over and I think there's a there's a definite difference in obviously some underlying components
74:11
Speaker A
with between males and females in in this in this world you're probably evolutionary in nature to to a degree but I don't know it's it's interesting that that dominant effect is like all right men swipe right get get as many
74:24
Speaker A
potential matches as you can and women be more Discerning we should say here that that is uh that was an American article who talked about this and also I guess ear was an American Experience because for a while I lived in Sweden
74:37
Speaker A
and there it's actually quite the other way around so there it's more the women who go after the men so um maybe it's culturally in that evolutionary that's okay so Count Me Count Me corrected because I'm you should have moved we
74:51
Speaker A
both should have moved to Sweden I guess I would have still been discerned against so that would have been it would have been but but Christina you you found love in in Copenhagen yes I found love in Denmark actually not in
75:06
Speaker A
Copenhagen so I didn't say hi um I didn't set the range small enough but it's still in Denmark exactly so um so yes I found found love in Denmark on the app uh so that has been actually a great
75:21
Speaker A
experience during covid during covet yes and I have to say it was actually I think the first match on that app um so the only first person I talked to uh on hint um also turned out to be the right one
75:35
Speaker A
so I think their algorithms work pretty well yeah that's good I guess so yeah so getting back to Logan's conversation yes um one of the things that I loved about this conversation was this idea of Osos right so
75:52
Speaker A
um we need other you know significant others that are in our lives so just thinking through that Tim thoughts on that I mean what what do you what do you think I wanted to spend more time on the
76:05
Speaker A
definition of Oso because there's a part of me that feels like for a long time we've had sort of classic uh girlfriend weekends we've had Drinking Buddies uh you know there are relationships that that we've had traditionally at least in the United
76:23
Speaker A
States of men going out with a bunch of guys that are just there to kind of hang out and you know do a common thing maybe it's a hunting weekend or you know a sports weekend or something like that
76:34
Speaker A
and women have had a variety of social engagements with with a close group of girlfriends and I wonder would does that fit the oso Christina did you talk to Logan deeper about that I'm just wondering if you've got any insights
76:51
Speaker A
because I wasn't clear how for lack of a better word intimate the relationship in an Oso would or could be because it sounded to me kind of like it's a it's a it's a good buddy thing I mean it doesn't imply any kind of sexual
77:06
Speaker A
intimacy I by any means I didn't get that but now just wondering is there is there sort of a uh a general sense of of emotional intimacy though between these between two people who are Osos I think it's an interesting point so we didn't
77:21
Speaker A
get more into it but maybe I could say from my personal experience not having been as lucky as you guys for having so long relationships I definitely have some friends if I've been very close friends with for about 20 years now and
77:35
Speaker A
if you compare that to any type of relationship I might start now or I have now that's gonna be well it will take some time until that's at the same level as what I have as a new partner so I
77:48
Speaker A
guess what you could think about is having this very long-term relationships that are on a friendly level um that yeah might even exist longer than most marriages today well I I want to go because you talked about it doesn't have to be sexual and
78:03
Speaker A
there's a so I was just on uh clubhouse last night and actually uh with our friend John John Levy and he had this this thing about sex dating and romance and along with that she he had um Dr Nicole prowse who has done some
78:18
Speaker A
really interesting work on like some of the physical aspects of sex and various different pieces of this and and she talked about this one study and I apologize if I get this wrong um and so uh I'll go back into the the
78:32
Speaker A
show notes in case we do and we'll correct anything there so look at the show notes folks um but she was talking about they did this research but that was actually it was you invited somebody in and it was
78:44
Speaker A
about touch and it was very uh almost erotic touch in in very private parts and about how people felt about that and what she found really interesting is that people knew this going in and they invited people who
79:01
Speaker A
weren't necessarily romantic partners with them and and she was really surprised at the number of people and that it was actually a very positive overall piece of having this what would be considered probably a very um sexual type touch
79:21
Speaker A
um that went on for 15 minutes and then the the the elements out of that were closer to that person very positive very uh well-being from the person in general about them and so I think it's interesting that even as we think about
79:39
Speaker A
um you know these others that are in our lives and we kind of put all of our components of of that romance and and sex part in with our romantic partner is that there may be a role and probably I
79:52
Speaker A
don't want to over you know generalize this in various different pieces but there are other roles that that you know other people can play within our lives um that may have an important aspect to our long-term well-being you guys are
80:08
Speaker A
both looking at me with playing stairs only because it's it's new you know it it's new I've actually heard someone mention this um before and I and I failed to to look it up but but it's it's curious that
80:21
Speaker A
what could be perceived as a sexual encounter ends up having been not the the if I understand it correctly the long-term experience is not increased sexual contact between these two people but there is a deeper sense of connectedness between my
80:40
Speaker A
understanding and again I'll go back and I'll look at this and make sure that that I've got that right but yes that that's my understanding and I think to to Logan's component of having these people fill different needs that we have
80:54
Speaker A
and that expecting that one romantic partner to be the one person to satisfy all of these different desires and needs that we have is probably uh a little asking too much of of that one person and you you brought it up
81:11
Speaker A
right Tim we we did have these relationships I mean we still do of you know getting together with your guy friends getting together with your girlfriends but even just mixed couples and having various different pieces and just your your communal group of friends
81:26
Speaker A
I know you know when I was in my 20s we had a great group of friends that we would go and do a whole bunch of stuff and I got a lot of you know my needs met of just that social interaction through
81:37
Speaker A
those various different people and I think part of what we were talking about was in covid how is that actually playing out because as much as we'd like to having that same interaction you know a hunting weekend is may not be able to happen because of
81:54
Speaker A
covid uh you know that that going out and drinking wine um with your girlfriends and doing whatever you know that is may not be able to happen and it's just not the same so we need to make sure that we
82:08
Speaker A
maintain those and and and do that I mean I guess Logan's book is so much full of all this actionable advice so maybe one actual advice could also be you guys probably know these 36 questions to fall in love that were
82:21
Speaker A
written down in the New York Times it's this idea that you sit down was a new date and you go through these 36 questions and they go from not so intimate to more intimate but I think the original research was actually about
82:32
Speaker A
disconnecting people so it actually had nothing to do with falling in love it was just to see how quickly could you bring to strangers to get to know each other better so maybe that's also one thing to think about that we can just do
82:44
Speaker A
that with our other significant others not necessarily just a partner but to build this bit more intimate connections between people oh I love that idea I think that's a fantastic idea Christina it's interesting so we we kind of talked
82:57
Speaker A
about this in in the interview but you know Tim and I just had a conversation with Shelly archambeau who uh uh was really an interesting conversation because she talked about having these goals in her life and wanting to be a
83:10
Speaker A
CEO and literally she was dating this guy who she felt was fantastic and wonderful but she had to put these questions out to him about what are your life goals and are you okay if I become the main Breadwinner and you are the one
83:26
Speaker A
who needs to stay home with the kids and this was in the 70s well before that was a norm in at least in the United States where that was even a a thing where it's like oh um and I think some of those
83:39
Speaker A
conversations that people have in in dating and I I'm not familiar with 36 questions but I'm just wondering how you know some of those those more intimate more personal conversations that are about long-term life goals are important to
83:57
Speaker A
have in the dating uh component and and I think we try to talk to a little bit to Logan about when to have those are you do you have those right away should you wait a little you know I think
84:09
Speaker A
there's also the School of Life which do these um they have a how to get married book and it's actually a workbook and it brings up all these different types of questions and then you can also make plans it's a little bit similar to what
84:23
Speaker A
uh what Logan else has in her book on the on the type of marriage a relationship contract and um sometimes I think having these questions written down can make it a bit easier to talk about hard topics right because just
84:35
Speaker A
bringing up out of the blue oh I wanted to say that um you have to stay home or how much time are you going to stay um at home when we have a child or what annoys you about me that you you don't
84:47
Speaker A
want to bring up but it's maybe still annoying and it could be good to talk about it so I really think having these little questions as an outside prompt so it doesn't feel like it's coming from you but actually randomly drawing a card
84:59
Speaker A
and then it has a question on that I think that's actually quite helpful Tim we ought to have this we gotta get those cards and do that yeah I was just thinking oh I wasn't thinking of doing it for us well I was thinking just the
85:11
Speaker A
things that Annoy Us that still after you know oh man I got a list I just I keep it right here I keep it handy so you add to it every day no that's not true that that's not true
85:27
Speaker A
all right well I think that wraps up our grooving session Christina just thank you this was fantastic your insights your commentary everything was just absolutely wonderful and you know we're gonna have to have you back at some point oh I will definitely come back
85:44
Speaker A
would you be one of our Osos of course but only if we do serious expressions okay oh fantastic well everybody thank you uh and hang on as we have our bonus track coming up [Music] hey Groovers this is Kurt with your
86:06
Speaker A
bonus track and groove idea for the week the conversation with Logan Yuri should be underscored by her remarkable career trajectory as you listen to her comments remember that she ran the irrational Lab at Google became a dating coach then the
86:20
Speaker A
director of relationship science at hinge and his most recently the author of the very nicely researched how to not die alone her ability to leverage good Behavioral Science to create the frame for her book is not just unique it's particularly
86:34
Speaker A
informative for readers in a world where finding love in the pandemic presents more challenges than any modern humans have had to deal with we are glad she wrote her book and shared a conversation with us in the first part of our conversation we
86:49
Speaker A
focused on using Behavioral Science to improve decision making in helping to get yourself ready for dating to maximize the experience of dating and to help make the relationship stick once you've found who you want to be with second part of our conversation gently
87:04
Speaker A
touched on the concept of communal living and our general need for more Osos that is other significant others and Logan believes that we could all do better by having the right people to share ideas and topics we love with and
87:21
Speaker A
most importantly not burden our partner with all of those things our additional interests are too wide and too varied to lay at the feet of our primary relationship and that got us to thinking so for our groove idea of the week we'd
87:36
Speaker A
like you to consider how to fulfill your interest in music or sports or crafts or Hobbies do you implicitly or explicitly ask your partner to be involved in things that aren't really in line with their interests and more importantly are
87:50
Speaker A
there other people in your life that you can turn to as Osos for your hobbies and other interests and if you were doing that with Osos before the pandemic how are you balancing and maintaining those relationships today as always let us know what you think
88:06
Speaker A
we'd love to hear from you and that brings us to the end of another episode of Behavioral grooves and we hope you enjoyed listening to our conversation with Logan Yuri and we hope you enjoyed how we brought our good friend Christina
88:18
Speaker A
gravert to the grooving session with us it was fun for us and we hope it worked for you as well and looking to the future we hope that this week you go out and find your group [Music] foreign
88:34
Speaker A
[Music]
Topics:behavioral sciencedatingrelationship sparksatisficinggame theoryLogan UryHingedating appscognitive biasesbehavioral economics

Get More with the SozAI App

Transcribe recordings, audio files, and YouTube videos — with AI summaries and speaker detection. 30 minutes free.

App Store Google Play
Or transcribe another YouTube video here →

Free tools: TXT to SRT · SRT Validator · Merge SRT · Subtitle to Text · All tools

Related Transcripts

View All
L’EQUIVOCO STRAVAGANTE Rossini – Wexford Festival Opera — Transcript2:20:16
L’EQUIVOCO STRAVAGANTE Rossini – Wexford Festival Opera — Transcript
OperaVision
3,723 1 English
Meesaya Murukku Intro Comedy Scene Reaction | Hiphop Tamizha — Transcript16:35
Meesaya Murukku Intro Comedy Scene Reaction | Hiphop Tamizha — Transcript
Parbrahm Singh Too
227 1 English
HackTheBox – Jerry — Transcript51:59
HackTheBox – Jerry — Transcript
IppSec
7,782 1 English
Mayhem- Maniac interview after the Live show in Marseille of 2000 — Transcript5:06
Mayhem- Maniac interview after the Live show in Marseille of 2000 — Transcript
morpheus101a
691 1 English
What DeleteMe and Incogni aren’t telling you — Transcript32:19
What DeleteMe and Incogni aren’t telling you — Transcript
Reject Convenience
4,023 1 English
Oakley Prizm Transitions Ember Lens Review — Transcript8:44
Oakley Prizm Transitions Ember Lens Review — Transcript
Sunglass Science
2,420 1 English
This AI Learned from 12 Billion Candles. Can It Trade Gold? — Transcript12:44
This AI Learned from 12 Billion Candles. Can It Trade Gold? — Transcript
CodeTrading
670 1 English
SpaceX AI Engineer Lauren Tan: Part 1 — Transcript55:32
SpaceX AI Engineer Lauren Tan: Part 1 — Transcript
Ai insider
10,873 1 English
Netflix-Style Documentary Map Animation in After Effects — Transcript1:47:26
Netflix-Style Documentary Map Animation in After Effects — Transcript
AEffecto
14,272 1 English
How not to take things personally? | Frederik Imbo | TEDxMechelen — Transcript17:26
How not to take things personally? | Frederik Imbo | TEDxMechelen — Transcript
TEDx Talks
799 1 English
[YBA] frosti — Transcript1:40
[YBA] frosti — Transcript
ПуЛи_От_БаБуЛи
308 1 English
The Disturbing Ways Ancient Humans Survived Winter — Transcript11:32
The Disturbing Ways Ancient Humans Survived Winter — Transcript
Ink Explainer
3,230 1 English