DEBATE @ S.C. - JAY SMITH vs MUHAMMAD HIJAB

Debate between Jay Smith and Muhammad Hijab on the origins of Islam versus Christianity, covering the meaning of 'Islam', the Trinity, Old Testament monotheism, and hadith and Bible manuscript reliabi

Key Takeaways

The two speakers disagree fundamentally on whether early Islam or early Christianity reflects the original monotheistic message of the prophets
Trinitarian doctrine's development through church councils is a central point of contention
Reliability of hadith transmission versus reliability of biblical manuscripts is a major axis of the debate
Both sides use manuscript dating and oral-tradition arguments to challenge the other's scriptural authority

What the video covers

Moderated debate framed as Islam versus Christianity, contrasting a 'classical' model with a historical-critical approach
Muhammad Hijab distinguishes 'Islam' with a small 'i' (submission to God, practiced by all prophets) from 'Islam' with a big 'I' (the religion of Muhammad, 7th century)
Hijab argues the core monotheist message of all prophets is reflected in Deuteronomy 6:4 ('Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one')
Hijab challenges Smith to cite an unambiguous Old Testament verse referring to the Trinity
Hijab argues Christian Trinitarian doctrine developed historically through councils (Nicaea 325, Constantinople 381, Chalcedon 451)
Jay Smith critiques Islamic hadith literature as compiled roughly 200+ years after Muhammad, relying on oral transmission and chains of narration
Smith argues oral traditions are subject to embellishment and that early hadith collections like al-Bukhari postdate the Prophet by centuries
Smith raises questions about the dating and completeness of Quranic manuscripts and when the Quran was canonized
Discussion of Bible manuscript evidence: Smith cites the early dating of Gospel sources and manuscript variants, with counterclaims about the age of surviving manuscripts
Both speakers appeal to Jesus' statements (e.g., John 5:30) and to what they consider the original message of the prophets

Chapters

What does Muhammad Hijab mean by 'Islam' with a small 'i' versus a big 'I'?

Hijab says Islam with a small 'i' means submission to God, a principle he says all prophets practiced, while Islam with a big 'I' refers to the religion associated with Muhammad in the seventh century. He argues the former has always existed.

Why does Jay Smith question the reliability of hadith?

Smith argues that hadith collections such as al-Bukhari's were compiled roughly 200 to 240 years after Muhammad's death and relied on oral transmission, which he believes is vulnerable to embellishment.

What Old Testament passage does Hijab use to support strict monotheism?

Hijab cites Deuteronomy 6:4, 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one,' and challenges Smith to produce an unambiguous Old Testament verse referring to the Trinity.

Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

Speaker A

I'm going to tell you right now what we're going to do today, and I'm going to let you begin with the five minutes. I've asked Muhammad to show me, and to prove to us, how Islam began from the classical model. I'm going to critique him from a historical standpoint, from what history tells us. We said it's going to be Islam versus Christianity and things like that: the emergence of Islam, how Islam began versus Christianity, from the classical model versus the historical model. This is going to be interesting, ladies and gentlemen.

Speaker A

to do is to show me and to prove to us how Islam began from the classical model and I'm going to say and critique him from historical what history tells us we said it's going to be Islam versus

Speaker A

Tell me when to start. Okay, let's start right here and right now. Can you all hear me? What I want to say, generally, is that Islam as a basic concept has two connotations. We can say there's Islam with a small "i" and Islam with a big "I."

Speaker A

let's start right here and right now can you all right what I want to say generally is that Islam as a basic thing has two connotations we can say there's Islam with a small eye and with Islam with the big eye

Speaker A

Islam with a small "i" literally means submission. In Arabic, the word "Islam" comes from the root meaning submission. We believe that every prophet was a Muslim in the sense that they were submissive to their Lord. We believe that the first human being on this planet, Adam, was in fact submissive and was a Muslim. So if the question is how Islam emerged, the answer is simply that Islam emerged when the first human being set foot on this earth. That's how Islam emerged.

Speaker A

to be on this planet Adam was in fact submissive and was Muslim so if the question is how did Islam emerge the answer is simply that Islam emerged when the first human being set foot on this Earth that's how Islam emerged now if

Speaker A

Now, if you're talking about Islam with a big "I," which carries the connotation of the Prophet Muhammad and what came with him, then clearly that happened in the seventh century with the birth and prophethood of the one we call Muhammad, the last and final messenger. We say that all these prophets came, and all those who came between them, and some hadith say there were 124,000 prophets, and they all came with the same fundamental message: to believe in one God and to worship one God.

Speaker A

final messenger we say that these two prophets all came and all those who came between them which some Hadith says 124,000 prophets all came with the same fundamental message to believe in a one God and to worship a one God this

Speaker A

This message is not only iterated and reiterated in the Qur'anic discourse. No doubt it is iterated and reiterated in the biblical discourse, which is why you'll find in Deuteronomy 6:4 that "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." Here is my question. This has always been the theological underpinning of all the prophets and saints, including Moses, Abraham, and Jesus. That is why you'll find in the Old Testament that there is nothing that indicates a Trinity. I challenge Jay Smith today to prove otherwise. I challenge Jay Smith today to give me one unequivocal, unambiguous verse in the Old Testament that refers to the Trinity.

Speaker A

is one God now here my question is this has always been the theological underpinning of all of the prophetic Saints including Moses and Abraham and Jesus which is why you'll find in the Old Testament that they really is

Speaker A

Because what we're saying is: how did both of these religions start? How did Islam start versus how did Christianity start? The answer is this. Islam has always been there, as I've just explained through my model. However, Christianity underwent a clear historical development, which I will prove today. It started with Trinitarianism and continued on to Trinitarianism. In 381, the Council of Constantinople literally forced Christians to adopt the Triune position and to completely abandon all the other models, including Arianism and subordinationism.

Speaker A

me an ambiguous verse in the Old Testament which refers to the Trinity because what we saying is how did both of these Rel how did Islam start versus how did Christianity start the answer is this Islam has always been there as I've

Speaker A

So if you compare the theological underpinning of Islam, and how Islam is consistent with all of its prophets and with the Christian message, you see two things. Number one, the Old Testament is not consistent with the New Testament. Number two, it is clear to any objective historian that there was a clear historical development in Christianity. That meant the councils, the Council of Nicaea in 325, Constantinople in 381, and Chalcedon in 451, had to formulate the theological creed of the Christians.

Speaker A

Triune position and to completely forget about all the other models including aism and subordinationism so here if you compare the theological underpinning of Islam and how Islam is consistent with all of its Pro with the Christian message and how number one the Old

Speaker A

My question is this: why don't you just go back to what the Old Testament says? Why don't you go back to Deuteronomy chapter 6, verse 4, where it clearly states, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one God"? This is the kind of thing all the prophets came with. This is the same message the Prophet Muhammad came with, and no doubt we believe it is the same message Jesus came with.

Speaker A

respectively to formulate the theological Creed of the Christians my question is why don't you just go back to what the Old Testament says why don't you go back to Deuteronomy chapter number 6 verse number four where it clearly

Speaker A

How long do I have left? One minute. That's brilliant. Okay, so the things I've raised in today's discussion are these. Point one: Islam has two different connotations. You have Islam with a small "i" and Islam with a big "I." Islam with a small "i" is submission, which all the prophets practiced. We still have a minute, we've got 40 seconds, four seconds, 43 seconds. Islam with a small "i" has always been in existence. In fact, it exists for the inanimate and the animate, because anything can submit to God's law. This is exactly what Jesus said: that he had not come to do his own will but the will of the Father who sent him, in John 5:30. I just say, listen, let's go back to Jesus's message. To be a true Christian today is not to follow this made-up concept by churches of the Trinity. Ladies and gentlemen, to be a true Christian means to go back to what Moses said, to what Abraham said, and to what Jesus said. Thanks, Muhammad.

Speaker A

Jesus came with how long do I have left 1 minute that's brilliant okay now so the things I've been able to raise here in this today's discussion point one that Islam has two different connotations you have Islam with a small

Speaker A

Now, have you noticed he used Islam with a big "I" and Islam with a small "i"? His definition of Islam with a small "i" covers all people who want to believe, while the big "I" refers specifically to those who follow the Prophet Muhammad. I'm going to use two different definitions for small "i" and big "I." I would suggest that the big "I" is historical Islam, and the small "i" is the Islam of faith. The Islam of faith depends on some fraudulent material. Let me explain what I mean by fraudulent material.

Speaker A

been in existence in fact it exists for inanimate and animate because anything can submit to God's law and this is exactly the same thing as Jesus has said that I have not come to submit to myself but to the father who sent me in ch in

Speaker A

Everything he's going to tell you about how Islam began, he says Abraham was a Muslim. I'm sure he wasn't. Moses was a Muslim, I'm sure he wasn't. Jesus was a Muslim, none of the prophets were Muslim. The word didn't even exist at the time they were living, in 1900 BC, 1400 BC, and the first century. What we do know is that even with the Prophet Muhammad, we have difficulty knowing who he was. You've all heard that the Prophet Muhammad was born in 570 and died in 632, started receiving revelations in 610, and ministered until 632, for 22 years. But where does that story come from? Where does the story of Muhammad come from? Does it come from people who knew him? No, it doesn't.

Speaker A

true Christian means to go back to what Moses says to AB says and to what Jesus says thanks Mohamed now have you noticed he used the Islam with a big eye and Islam with a small eye his definition

Speaker A

Who was the first to write down the story of Muhammad that we have today? The earliest extant material was written by Ibn Ishaq. He died in 833. Muhammad died in 632, so about 200 years passed before we finally get the story of Muhammad written down. Now, what about the things he said, the hadith? You have Bukhari and Muslim. Look at all these hadith, these sayings of the Prophet. When did al-Bukhari die? 870. That's 240 years after Muhammad died. So everything he's going to tell you about Muhammad or Islam with the small "i" depends on source material that comes from Ibn Ishaq, 833, al-Bukhari, 870, and Muslim, 875. Everyone who comes after Bukhari is post-870. The Tafsir only gets first written down by a man named al-Tabari, 923.

Speaker A

eye is the historical Islam the small eye is the Islam of faith and the Islam of faith is dependent on some fraudulent material let me what do you mean by fraudulent material everything he's going to tell you about how is began now

Speaker A

Can you see the problem? All they know about Islam with a small "i" comes from two to three hundred years later. When you look at Jesus Christ, folks, we have material from the very century and the very time period he lived in. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were all living at the time of Jesus Christ. Matthew, Mark, and Luke were writing within 30 to 40 years of Christ's death. Did they know Jesus? Yes, they did. Did they see Jesus? Yes, they did. Did they hear what he said? Yes, they did. Matthew and John were eyewitnesses to what they wrote. Mark and Luke got it from the eyewitnesses. Show me one eyewitness of Muhammad, with any of his traditions, from what he said and what he did. You cannot show me anybody who was living at that time. They lived hundreds of years later and hundreds of miles away.

Speaker A

first century but what we do know is that even the prophet Muhammad his Prophet Muhammad we have difficulty knowing who he was because you've all heard that Prophet Muhammad was born in 570 and died in 632 started receiving

Speaker A

Therefore, I would say that Islam with the big "I," the Islam of history, is not the real Islam, and we need to go back and unpack what we do know about Islam. Where did this religion begin? I only have a minute to do that. I can't do it in the first minute, but you can see we're going to do like with like. We're going to look at the historical...

Speaker A

Muhammad that we have today where's the first extent material written by IB hasham is his name he died in a33 Muhammad died in 632 200 years before they finally get the story of Muhammad down now what about the things he said the Hadith you

Speaker A

have alari sah Muslim look at all these Hadith these sayings of the Prophet when did Al bhari die 870 that's 240 years after Muhammad died so everything he's going to tell you about the Muhammad or Islam with the

Speaker A

small eye is dependent on Source material that comes from I 833 Ali 835 sah Muslim 870 everyone that comes after bhari is post 870 the T only get first written down by man named alab 923 now can you

Speaker A

see the problem all they know about Islam with a small eye comes from 2 to 300 years later when you look at Jesus Christ folks we have material from the very century and from the very time period he lived Matthew Mark and Luke

Speaker A

and John were all living at the time of Jesus Christ Matthew Mark and Luke we writing within 30 to 40 Years of Christ's death did they know Jesus yes they did did they see Jesus yes they did did they hear what he said yes they did

Speaker A

Matthew and John were eyewitnesses to that which they wrote Mark and Luke got it from the eyewitnesses show me one eyewitness of Muhammad from with any of his Traditions from what he said and what he did you cannot show me anybody that was

Speaker A

living at that time they lived hundreds of years later and hundreds of miles away therefore I would say the Islam the eye the big eye Islam of history is not the real Islam and we need to go back

Speaker A

and unpack what we do now know about Islam where is it that this religion began I only have a minute to do that I can't do it in the first minute but can you see we're going to do like with like

Speaker A

we're going to look at the historical record for both religions we're going to show that when you look at Christianity when you look at the person of Jesus Christ the fact that he died on the cross something that Islam disputes the

Speaker A

fact that he rose again that's what true Christians believe every Christian wants to know did God in the form of Jesus Christ did he die and Rise Again is that a historical fact can we show that Jesus did die Muslims can't do that Muslims

Speaker A

can only assume he did not die there's only one reference in the Quran Surah 4 Ayah 157 one reference to say he did not die if he did not die and rise again I'm damned and so is everybody here who is

Speaker A

listening to me Christianity is not just the Trinity like he would like to say Christianity is the fact that God came to Earth God died on the cross God rose again for everyone here and that's a historical event what Muhammad did what

Speaker A

Muhammad said we're now seeing is not historical we're going to unpack that for you and show you what we mean and we're going to show you how difficult it is going to be for Muhammad to show me that Islam the big eye the real

Speaker A

historical Islam is the Real Islam we're going to show you the Big C Christianity there is only one Christianity and that's the historical Christianity God bless you over to you Muhammad thank you very much J this is really going to

Speaker A

become very embarrassing today no no no let them decide that no no no no no no no no no this is going to be really really embarrassing today he says that the first books of Hadith or the first books of let's say

Speaker A

compilation of which he couldn't pronounce properly and I'm sure that he has not been able to tap those books in the primary source material because let us sir do you speak correctly can't excuse me calm down that's Point

Speaker A

number one talking point number two here is what I wanted to make can you hear me guys yeah is that he is making the fallacy of believing that because the compilers compiled the Hadith 200 to 300 years after the prophet's death that the

Speaker A

Hadith didn't exist before that how embarrassing how ridiculous ulous how a historical do you not know how the science of Hadith Works according to the Muslims you've been standing here for years my friend and you haven't bothered to ask someone like me how science of

Speaker A

Hadith works let me educate you I know you're my Elder but I must educate you today yes it will happen you'll be educated J Smith by someone who is at least a third of your age at least actually maybe maybe not that bad okay

Speaker A

how so let me tell you something the way the chains work we have a chain we have a chain for the Quran we have many chains for the Quran we have chains for the Hadith all of those chains are for

Speaker A

people that have actually met the prophet seen the prophet let me give you one example one Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad s which says whoever lies about me intentionally so let him prepare the seat his seat in Hellfire this is narrated by at least 42

Speaker A

sahabis according to the scholars of Hadith some Scholars of Hadith say 120 sahabis meaning Companions of the Prophet saw this and narrated it to other people he's making he's embarrassing himself additionally by trying to compare the Hadith Sciences

Speaker A

which is something he doesn't have with the biblical narrative now let's read the the books of Armen he said that the people that saw Jesus Christ Matthew Mark Luke and John saw Jesus Christ not in scholarly circles you can say that to

Speaker A

your audiences to your passive audience that are not educated maybe to the Rednecks in in the Bible Belt region who are racist some of them and they just accept any preacher's words maybe you can make those statements there but my

Speaker A

friend you can't make those statements to an educated audience who know very well that the scholarly works like the works of B indicate very well he says there is no Shadow excuse me work very clearly guys that Matthew Mark Luke and John

Speaker A

first of all peny we don't know who these guys are the actual earliest sources are sources like Matthew Mark and Luke John is the oldest one according to B and these these sources come as he said about 100 years after

Speaker A

Jesus Christ no one saw Jesus and told us about him from the people that he's mentioned he's lying to you as he does usually and he's CAU on camera talking about there's no pork being sold in Morrison that's a lie and this is a lie

Speaker A

and that's a historical a historical account so herey how can you account for the fact that you're standing here in front of me and the people here your Christian friends and telling us huh you're telling us all to believe in a

Speaker A

Bible which is not reliably transmitted no I challenge you I challenge you to give me one chain of narration which goes back to the companions of Jesus if you do the same to me I will easily do it in fact let's do it now we have

Speaker A

chains of narration for example he's been taught by he's been taught by he's been taught by the prophet Muhammad sallam one chain okay do the same thing now I've shown you that then this is just one singular chain but actually you

Speaker A

have thousands of sahabah of Companions of the Prophet Muhammad wasallam meeting him and writing down is where as verbally transmitting what he's done how do you account for that my friend you can't read the primary source materials I have to be the Translating link that

Speaker A

helps you don't stand there in the position of Education you're there in a position of learning now you're there in a position of learning now the child is going to teach the the the the old man no problem the child is going to teach

Speaker A

the old man because you don't know what I know and that's the bottom line challenge one get me a chain get me a chain that goes back to Jesus Christ a chain of provance that goes back to Jesus

Speaker A

Christ option two after you've given me the chain if you can't get me the chain huh then admit that actually the first person to see the first compilation we have at least 100 years afterwards Thank you very very

Speaker A

much oh I love what he's done do you notice he said the young man's going to teach the old man I am the older man and I do know what we're talking about let me ask him very quickly where is this

Speaker A

chain that he talks about where is there any document he said they wrote them down where are those documents from the time of Muhammad through the 7th Century up into the 8th century and into the 9th century why is it we don't have anything

Speaker A

written down for 200 years years if he likes to change so much show me one piece of document show me where are they they don't begin to appear until 8:33 that's why I said very clearly the earliest manuscripts that we have the

Speaker A

earliest documentation we have for the the first that we have is he gets it from IB but he is not a student of IB he depended on someone else where did Al buhari writing in the late 9th century

Speaker A

200 40 years later where did he get his material from there's nothing written down now you might say they didn't need to write it down they memorized it folks can you see what we're talking about that's 240 years of oral tradition do

Speaker A

you trust oral tradition I don't trust it if I were to tell you something and he were to tell him and he were to tell him by the time it gets over to that man what I've told you and what he's told me

Speaker A

has been changed and if that could happen in 15 minutes can you imagine what happens in 240 minutes 40 years but here's the real problem why did none of these people write it down the chain that he's going to come up with why did

Speaker A

not one of them write it down were they not educated was there no writing material Remember by the time that ABD Malik comes to power in 685 Islam had spread all the way from FR from Spain in the West to India in the

Speaker A

East are you telling me that from India to Spain no one can read and write please folks the fact that nothing was written down the fact that they cannot even come to anything that they can show us from the seventh century

Speaker A

from the 8th Century of any of these Traditions proves that these were finally written down in the 9th century and that's why we don't trust them I don't trust oral tradition because I know how it can be embellished

Speaker A

I can know how it can be changed we can even look at the Quran show me one Quran that comes from the seven Century show me one Quran that comes from the time ofman show me any manuscript the top

Speaker A

copy the summer cut the H the the the M manuscript the hus manuscript the petropolis manuscript the Sona manuscript the six major manuscripts show me one of them that comes from the time of the Prophet himself or that

Speaker A

comes from the time ofman that even comes from the same Century as the time ofman the 7th Century folks every one of these major manuscripts the earliest that the Muslims have only begin to appear in the 8th Century now there's a problem there

Speaker A

we're talking about the 8th Century I know he loves to mock me this is the only thing he can do mock is the only thing he has left because he cannot come up with anything any material to prove

Speaker A

prove to you and me that the Quran or the Traditions existed at the time of Muhammad or existed in the same time as Muhammad now I won't do this to him because I'm too big for that but see can

Speaker A

you see the problem be careful of what you're going to hear be careful of who you're listening to he will tell you that these change of names are there yes and that's all they are they're nothing more than change of

Speaker A

names history is what we're looking at today and the Islam with the guy the Islam of History has to be documented the fact that we can go back to the bottomer Papyrus the John ryland's manuscripts these are right here in

Speaker A

Manchester and also we have them in Switzerland these are the kind of documents that we can go back the fact that we can go to the Chester be manuscripts the fact that we can go to all the manuscripts we have 365

Speaker A

manuscripts of the New Testament alone that begin to appear even before Islam came onto the world stage therefore why is it Islam can't even come up with one document of their Quran from the 7th Century mock me as you want to Muhammad

Speaker A

but you've got to come up with some better material than that don't give me oral tradition don't give me speculation show me a manuscript that you can prove that sits at the same time that Muhammad lived the same time thatman lived and I

Speaker A

can show you that we can beat you by hundreds of years I thank God for the Bible and I thank God for his tradition and I thank God for those people who spoke about him and I thank God that we

Speaker A

can show that Christianity is historical prove it to me now I'm not going to Mock You Like You mock me I'm going to let you now speak freely go ahead young man let me have my fun all right now you

Speaker A

You' made a challenge I'm going to meet your challenge unlike you because people would have realized now okay that I have quoted Scholars like bar who have written scholarly books who have made it very patently clear to people like El who believe that actually

Speaker A

the the the earliest manuscripts of the Bible are the ones I've mentioned El Source M Source Q Source Matthew Mark Luke John is old now these sources come about as he's mentioned and admitted today about 100 years after the Bible

Speaker A

after Jesus said that let me meet his challenge he says why is it the case that you don't find that the Quran first of all and the Hadith obviously supplementary to the Quran has been written down wait a minute what a li

Speaker A

that is what a lie that is let's start with the Quran since it's higher mentions in which I'm sure you don't know what that is it's a book a scholarly book written he says that there are three conditions for a Quran

Speaker A

to be accepted condition number one it must be memorized and there must be an oral transmission as El condition number two it has to be concurrent with the Arabic language condition number three there must be something written as well

Speaker A

these conditions are all met with the manuscript of the Quran which is why you will find no doubt which is why you will find no doubt that the M or the books of the Quran which are in turkey and

Speaker A

in in Yemen yes they do go back to the time of a man in 651 and they are radiocarbon dated to a degree of 19 99.9% 99.9% refute me refute me today there is a written book of the Quran as well as

Speaker A

the human the chain as well as it's concurrency with the Arabic language that's what we're bringing forward today we're not coming here to say that the Quran is merely but memorized no there is a written Quran and it's there for

Speaker A

everybody to see in fact there's more than one point number one as for the Hadith there are written Hadith as well what are you talking about no doubt there are written a Hadith in fact so much Hadith is written that it becomes a

Speaker A

condition of the acceptance of Hadith for the person who's able to write the Hadith for him to have what you called d d is either you have good memory and or you can write well so the one who's

Speaker A

writing the Hadith and is transmitting it has to be able to write properly this is a condition of having said that the companions of the Prophet wrote the Hadith and he was instructed the prophet instructed them as is in the authentic Hadith not to

Speaker A

write it in Mecca but then in Medina when the injunctions came down he told them to write it which is why you'll find the he wrote thei down they were written down this is why when sorry to say but

Speaker A

someone who's not acquainted with the primary source primary language of of the Islam when they come when they come to the quranic and Islamic discourse they fumble because they see in their minds okay the first Hadith book is or

Speaker A

it's for example alari but wait a minute the first compilation mean that the actual Hadith was not written down before how humiliating how humiliating that's absolutely not necessary and absolutely not true I've explained to you how and why moreover now how could

Speaker A

you from your position of Christianity someone whose manuscripts have literally been changed hundreds of thousands of times there are more inconsistencies in the Bible than words in the Bible there are 400,000 words in the Bible there are more inconsistencies there's more

Speaker A

variances in the Bible than words in the Bible according to Bart Man 97% wait a minute 97% of the manuscripts have been found of the Bible are after the 9th century which is two centuries after Prophet Muhammad so your Bible 97%

Speaker A

of the manuscripts comes after Al Quran how dare you stand there and talk to us about scriptural Integrity how dare you my friend no way no way no way this is not acceptable we will not accept that you have completely humiliated yourself

Speaker A

today J Smith you have embarrassed yourself how dare you I mean how embarrassing that is today get me a chain that's the challenge a chain with the book that goes back to Jesus we are ready to accept Christianity Today let's

Speaker A

do it get me the chain with the book don't talk to me about scriptural Integrity when you have none and you have no documents to back up your claims Jay go ahead this is going to be fun all

Speaker A

right let's go and let's just unpack each one of the major manuscripts that he doesn't wear he's not aware of the Top Copy manuscript when was it written see he says it's been written byman let's look and see what the Muslim

Speaker A

Scholars are saying today Dr Ty alich Dr E nanu your leading scholars in Islam they have now looked at the six major manuscripts from 2002 to 2007 over 5 years they are the only ones that have looked at all of these six major

Speaker A

manuscript they've looked at the Top Copy what are they now saying this is from the mid 8th Century that's 100 years afterman it only has 78 to 99% depending on how much you want it which one you're going to quote of the Quran that is

Speaker A

readable today today but even in the Quran that is readable today there are 2,230 manuscript variants from the Quran that we use today the Huffs garad 2,230 manuscript variants that words are phrases that are different than the Quran we use today 227 2,270 thanks for

Speaker A

correcting me let's look at the taupe copy sorry let's look at the summer cut in tashk in usbekistan that only goes up to sah 43 there's 14 suras in the Quran much of the Quran is missing what's more

Speaker A

T Dr T says when you look at this manuscript it is so full of Errors it has so many grammatical mistakes it's an embarrassment whoever wrote it did not know very good Arabic don't use it it is from the early 8th Century 60 to 70

Speaker A

years afterman let's go to the hus manuscript in CYO that's from the 9th century that's 200 years later it has a manuscript variance let's go to the m manuscript right here in the British library that only goes up to Sur 43 but

Speaker A

you didn't know that did you because Muslims refuse to look at the newest research keep up with the newest research by your own Scholars Bart man has never done any material on the Quran now let's see what it has let's go to

Speaker A

the sauna manuscript that you love so much the sauna manuscript has many different small pieces the largest piece of it only is 23% of the Quran and in that 23% it has 93 manuscript variants it is dated to 705 but that's only part

Speaker A

of it much of it also is lated at a later part at a later date the petropol I'm sorry that's the petropolis manuscript can you see folks six major manuscripts they are all from the 8th Century not one of them is from the

Speaker A

seventh century not one of them is complete not one of them agrees with each other and not one of them agrees completely with the Quran that we have today so when was your Quran canonized when was the crown that we have today

Speaker A

finalized in 1924 at Allah's University by a bunch of Scholars 93 years ago Prince what's his name Prince Phillip is older than your Quran and that's why you need to look at the historical evidence don't come here to me with platitudes

Speaker A

but did you notice he still hasn't come up with any manuscripts that are existing today for the Hadith prior to 833 he cannot come up with anything prior to 833 even the one that he's going to come up with for Al buhari is

Speaker A

not from 870 it is from the 11th century the earliest manuscript we have is from the 11th century we have nothing even from the time of alari so be careful what he's going to say I'm not going to sit and mock him as he talks

Speaker A

like he does with me I'm just going to ask every one of you to realize that history is now catching up with Islam and with the Quran he said that the SAA manuscript has been carbon dated yes it

Speaker A

has look at the dates of the carbon dating that's coming now out of tulo that's coming out of Leo that's coming out of Arizona at the carbon dating Labs the carbon dates for those manuscripts go back to 443 ad Muhammad was born in

Speaker A

70 AD that's over a 100 years before Muhammad what are you going to do with that be careful the claims you make and if you're going to use Bart ER for heaven's sakes that's laughable Bart man has been destroyed by almost like most

Speaker A

of the reputable Christian Scholars today he does not know his material he does not know his crap I would rather you would go back to the Muslim Scholars go back to Al Dr Al alich go to Dr E ISU

Speaker A

go back to the men who know their craft who have seen the material who have looked at it and who have also come up with their conclusions thank God we've done that with our Bible I'll show you what we have in the next five minutes

Speaker A

concerning what we have for our Bible versus what you have for your Quran thank Jesus listen to me this is I'm telling you the most outrageous claim the first thing he said was that the I don't know what the dates you gave you go to any

Speaker A

reputable SE search or any kind of anyone who knows anything when did when is the manuscript until 651 which is the time of how do we know that because came around in that time that's when it was canonized for the second time there was

Speaker A

a first canonization of the time ofak when Z did the first canonization and then the second one as for the variance that he's talking about that's a lie there isn't ,700 variants what he's talking about is the now I'll tell you

Speaker A

what we mean just in a very simple way say for example if I say if I say for example a word and another word sometimes you have something called four four yeah so I say I make a med for for four uh like that

Speaker A

his variant is basically if I say h like that that he considers a variant this is not what we're talking about if you look at the variants that are that actually changes in meaning there are few number and they are justified by the fact that

Speaker A

the prophet Muhammad wasallam had revelation of seven now let me ask you a very simple question what is the what is the difference between a and a since you know now your stuff and you've been reading your stuff and I'm sure you do

Speaker A

all these things in your opinion what's the difference between a and a because if you don't know what is then you won't know what is the have differences and these differences go back to the prophet Muhammad wasallam with all chains and

Speaker A

they all been written down so it's not 2,000 that's completely a lie and false for example let me give you an easy example if you've got Malik in Malik Malik is repeated in the Quran six of those have and four of them

Speaker A

have four of them have mik so you have two differences represented over 10 different these two differences go back to the prophet Muhammad wasallam through a chain and through the written Quran that was to facilitate for different tribes and they do have different

Speaker A

meaning we've made this very clear now 2,000 that's a number which cannot be justified you'll never be able to prove it third point he's saying that I've not been able to bring any evidences for the Hadith I say generally that's completely

Speaker A

a lie the thing is it doesn't have a name like like the or the terminological Expressions he used sometimes it's just named after theah Abu all of these individuals they wrote the Hadith down so you say that the of the the the writings of and then

Speaker A

we say the name of the sahabi and these things are still available with us so for you to say it's not been written is nothing but a lie it's not true you cannot substantiate that you have to disprove what I've just said you say no

Speaker A

actually down you have to say that theab didn't WR it that these ex these manuscripts don't exist you have to say that but you'll never be able to make that claim because that claim would be nothing but falsehood now having

Speaker A

defended Islam let's go back to Christianity because it seems to me like you have not answered the question of where is the provence the chain of Provence that goes back to Jesus Christ where is the person or where are the people that have seen

Speaker A

Jesus Christ where is the Bible anyways why is 97% of the Bible according to bman manuscripts that came after the 9th century answer the questions these are questions I've answered your questions now it's time for you to answer my

Speaker A

question this is how people reach true conclusions you bring your claims I bring my claims you ask your questions I ask my questions I answer yours now it's time for you to answer mine where are the Manus where is the Bible where is

Speaker A

the original Bible who saw Jesus this is my question give me an answer why are there so many variants which have theological implications that are different to each other I dare you today to find one variant stylistic which goes back to the

Speaker A

prophet Muhammad which com rcts each other I can find you a dozen that has theological implications which contradict each other in the Bible how can you explain the fact that the church had a credal development 325 342 381 451

Speaker A

all of these times have shown that the CED of the chians have nothing but change they've changed time and time again my question to you J Smith is how comes you are believing in Christianity which has been developed after Jesus 38

Speaker A

theodosius when he forced the people to only accept the Triune understanding of Jesus where is this in the Bible where is it in the Old Testament that the holy spirit is God your theology is built on your theology

Speaker A

is okay have you noticed he still doesn't want to go back to the manuscript evidence but unless you have manuscripts you can make all the claims you want if you don't have the manuscript evidence how many we do you

Speaker A

do one more then I'll do one more after this okay if we don't have the manuscript evidence then you're going to have a problem that's why I said Islam with a small eye is what he's telling you Islam with a big eye the historical

Speaker A

Islam is proving to be inaccurate he has not kept up with the latest material he's not even read e melodin he's not even read ISU he's not gone back to Ay Al alage he went you must go back to

Speaker A

your own Muslim Scholars stop keep going to Bart IR he's done nothing on the chonic manuscripts he won't know ddly SWAT but more than that folks have you noticed unless you're going to show historically from the sth century that

Speaker A

you can even show one Quran that comes from the time ofman stop claiming it you can't prove it there's nothing in existence and the six earliest manuscripts that you have every one of them are full of manuscript variants now

Speaker A

Dr David Brew Baker Dan Brew Baker and did his doctoral thesis in 2014 looking at all the six manuscripts he wanted to find manuscript variants he wanted to find maybe 15 that's all he needed he looked at he he took pictures of all the

Speaker A

manuscripts guess what he found he found over 200 insertions in the manuscripts he found over 500 erasers where they erase complet complete words complete phrases he found copies that had copies of copies where they had tapings where they had coverings where they had

Speaker A

writings over top of the coverings and over top of the tapings 2,200 different changes in these manuscripts what was most troubling is that these changes continued up until the 9th and 10th Century for 200 years they were still changing the Quran they

Speaker A

were still changing these six manuscripts none of them are from the 7th Century they only begin to appear in 7005 and they continue to be changed up until the 10th Century Two to 300 years later now deal with that Muhammad I know

Speaker A

this is not over your this cannot be over your head because they can all understand it now let's go back to the biblical manuscripts he said that none of the biblical manuscripts or none of the writers knew Jesus I've already said

Speaker A

Matthew and John were with Jesus for the last three years of his ministry they were eyewitness es to what they wrote did they re have the manuscripts they original no because they were written on Papyrus which disintegrates that's why

Speaker A

copies need made immediately but that's why we do have papyri you can see it even in the British library and by the 6th Century we have 235 of these copies sorry 365 of these copies that's 100 years before the first Islamic manuscript I'm

Speaker A

sorry 150 years before the first Islamic manuscript even comes to existence what is interesting go and look at the caticus here in the British Library it's there you can go look at it all 27 books written in the 4th Century 300 years

Speaker A

before Islam and yet it identifies with the the Bible that we have today more than that we have 19,800 translation in 11 different languages these all are the same what's more than that we have 2,35 lectionaries from the sixth Century 100 years before

Speaker A

Islam which agree with the manuscript evidence we have 5,300 Greek manuscripts 10,000 Latin V Gates 9,000 in other language take a look and see if they all agree so where is he getting off cing Bart IR we're having a debate sir where does he get

Speaker A

off talking about bart IR T saying 97% of the of the Bible disagrees prove it to me and I'd love to see where Bart IR ever said that you're lying when you say 97% he never said that he wouldn't be so

Speaker A

stupid to say that but folks we have something even better the early church fathers quotations the early church fathers wrote letter after letter and they would write down scripture verse after scripture verse in these letters Dr David gal rimple and Dr jeanber gun

Speaker A

spent their whole lives collecting these quotations and they came up with 86,000 of these quotations 36,000 of them that predated the 4th Century that's 300 years before Islam they look at those quotations and look and see if they don't agree with the

Speaker A

manuscript evidence and they don't agree with the translations and they all agree also with the Heritage they the the lectionaries every one of them agrees so where is Bart Man coming off that's why we don't accept Bart nman and that's why

Speaker A

I love my Bible okay now this is your summation then I'll do my summation 5 minutes you you start before me so you're going to finish I'll finish yeah so you do the first and I'll do this churches and R people some of what he

Speaker A

said is falsehood mixed with truth and other parts of what he said it's pure falsehood so let me go with the falsehood mixed with truth first he said that there are some copies of the Quran which have Parts taken in and parts

Speaker A

taken out and and things written on the side that's true there are some parts of the Quran written by some of the sahabah themselves which have this which have for example things written on the side what is that that is their book

Speaker A

basically the sahab in in order to do or ex Jesus of the Quran they would have their own copy of the Quran and they would write the top on the top of that Quran certain things which are additional to it which are not part of

Speaker A

it now these books are known by the scholars of Islam to be books which are not the Quran why because as I've mentioned to you before in the book by he mentions three conditions for something to be called the Quran one of

Speaker A

them is it has to be concurrent with that what call which is the script of our men number two is it has to become show me some of those pages rub material now that's easily dismisses all these variants that he's

Speaker A

talking about which are not necessarily fitting into that category so you'll find qurans there are some qurans that have in put in and take it out but they are not considered qurans by us basically in a nutshell we only do we

Speaker A

only do in the we only read out of the Quran that which have fulfills those three criteria which can be summarized in the the 10 narrators of the Quran and this has all a chain back to the prophet

Speaker A

Muhammad sah Al wasallam as for the Hadith thing I did mention I mentioned once twice and Thrice that different companions many of them wrote it down and the names of the manuscripts are the names of the companions they're merely

Speaker A

called the comp scriptures according to for example let me these things are written down before before you have not answered this how could you access it anyways this is Arabic resources I've proven today you don't know how to speak Arabic so how

Speaker A

can you access materials you can't understand it's like me going to a Chinese library and trying to understand what's going on so you have no right to tell me what does and doesn't exist from an Arabic primary source material

Speaker A

perspective you have to learn from me not tell me that's Point number one point number two as it relates to the Bible I'm happy that he admitted that generally there is nothing at the time of Jesus why are you making an argument

Speaker A

against me then you are throwing a stone and you live in a grass house you're telling me that you don't have anything when you've just admitted you have nothing yourself what are you talking about you've asked me to prove it I've

Speaker A

done so using three methods and you have failed to do so using even one so here the question will remain for you in the Salvation give me one chain of Providence that goes back to the Jesus himself where the companions of Jesus

Speaker A

they saw Jesus they wrote about Jesus you said Matthew Mark Luke they pen they are pen names who was Matthew what was his second name give me some information information about him we have something called is the biographical information

Speaker A

of all of the people that are in the chains of narration for the Muslims we know we have an MI5 record we have our C record we have a FBI record of and I know FBI and C is something that you

Speaker A

know usually consider me as needing to be in contact with terrorism and all these things but generally speaking we have an MI5 record of all of the people bi in the biographies of these people in the chains where are your biograph

Speaker A

biographical information who was Matthew give me some information about him according to the scholarly Works no don't tell me he was someone who just saw Jesus give me historical independent information from the biblical discourse don't come come to that with this such a

Speaker A

weak argument Point number two he said that the early church fathers he talked about the early church fathers and these things they agreed the same things no they didn't give me one early Church Father that talked about the Trinity as

Speaker A

you believe it today that's my challenge before you leave if you don't do it give me one and their quote that they believe father son holy spirit all of them are one one early Church Father before 381 one early church father but if you say

Speaker A

that he doesn't exist such a church father doesn't exist that would be to say that the the predecessors knew more than the more than the predecessors you're saying that the older people the newer people knew more than the younger

Speaker A

people as for the scholars you quoted they are not Scholars that we are riing upon we told you we have information based on the Arabic record you don't have that so how could you tell me about the Arabic scholarship so here Point

Speaker A

number one and a chain of provenant that goes back to Jesus Point number two one early Church Father who said that he believed father son Holy Spirit and one all in one and number three if you can't do that will you admit that you have

Speaker A

nothing to say anymore okay let's start with that he's had his summation let me give you some names Ignatius he was writing in the late 2N Century he knew the father Son and Holy Spirit tertullian he was one that coined

Speaker A

the name he was the one that coined the name of the Trinity he was one that actually gave us the word it's nothing more than a doctrinal representation of what we see in the Bible but what what about Clement what about polycarp what

Speaker A

about athanasius these were all early church fathers every one of them believed in the Trinity I've already given you five I've given you five now that's interesting have you not yet told you of any manuscript that's from the

Speaker A

7th Century he cannot name any manuscript from the 7th Century have you noticed secondly he has not given you any manuscripts of the Hadith that is earlier than the 9th century he still cannot do it he says we

Speaker A

trust an oral tradition we trust in the chain of name the isnad folks what why did they not write down what they were quoting why could they not write it down were they in is incapable of doing it were they that

Speaker A

poorly educated please don't say that the fact is they didn't write it down CU there was nothing to write down we haven't even got what we now know about Muhammad historically that will have to be for another debate we haven't even

Speaker A

told you what we now know about your early earliest MOS we can't find one MOS that is fading see Mecca until 7:31 ad Muhammad died in 632 we're going to get into that in another debate but look let's just look and see what I was

Speaker A

talking about take a look at these insertions these are just a few of the over 2 200 insertions we have been able to find from the earliest manuscripts take a look at the racers these are 500 have to ask you to come off the

Speaker A

platform everybody has to come off the platform okay what what time do I have so I can finish this speaking but you have to platform okay thank you very much all right yeah you can okay we'll do from here okay can you see look at

Speaker A

these erasers over 250 erasers these are now been photographed this is new material I know that M Muhammad has not seen this yet he's not aware of this you need to keep up with the newest materials look at the erasers over

Speaker A

written there's over 500 of these look at this one here over written without apparent erasers can you read it that's why we we're saying I didn't do this work I don't have to do this work but I love the scholars who did this word Dr

Speaker A

Don Brew Baker wrote it Dr Dan Brew Baker is the one that read it it is his material that I'm showing today folks thank God I don't have to depend on BART ER and thank God I don't have to depend

Speaker A

on myself all I have to depend on on those who's done the work Muhammad before you get up and start mimicking and mocking people do the homework yourself and Muslims realize that you've got a real problem with your Quran no

Speaker A

don't realize that your Quran did not exist at the time ofman did not exist at the 7th century when it began to exist when it started to take shape in the 8th Century the many different manuscripts that we even have today do not agree

Speaker A

with each other they have hundreds of manuscript VAR AR and Kat should not even come into this because I want to show you the and the Kat I want to show you the diagram that we are now going to

Speaker A

do another day here take a look at the hundreds and hundreds thousands of variants that we have now found in the different up 45,000 variants it's not up sir not up disrespectful it's not up yet it's not up yet don't walk away yet

Speaker A

listen to this we're going to show you exactly how many AR we've been able to find we've now found 37 different Arabic Kuran not just 26 that's not true 27 sorry 27 different Arabic Quran we're going to come back and show you and we're going

Speaker A

to find more are we not but folks wait till we show you how many variants they have my good I'm so glad we don't have this problem with the Bible folks be careful of who you listen to be careful

Speaker A

of what you understand but make sure you come back to the Bible thank God we've done our homework Muslims do your homework before you make your claims make sure you know what you're talking about God bless you see you next week

Speaker A

Jesus [Music] [Music]

Topics:IslamChristianityJay SmithMuhammad HijabdebateTrinityhadithQuranBible manuscriptsmonotheism

Get More with the SozAI App

Transcribe recordings, audio files, and YouTube videos — with AI summaries and speaker detection. 30 minutes free.

App Store Google Play

Or transcribe another YouTube video here →

Free tools: TXT to SRT · SRT Validator · Merge SRT · Subtitle to Text · All tools