Speaker A
Are avoidants bad people, or do they just shut down and get misunderstood? Are you doomed to be your attachment style for life? Can you actually heal from anxious attachment, or is that just it? You're always going to feel like this.
Psychiatrist Amir Levine, co-author of Attached, discusses attachment styles, whether they change, misconceptions, and how to move toward earned security in relationships.
Key Takeaways
- Attachment styles are malleable and can shift across adulthood through new relational experiences.
- Childhood is only a small part of adult attachment; friendships and ongoing experiences matter more than commonly assumed.
- Labeling people by attachment style can be unhelpful; focus on behaviors and mutual responsiveness.
- Building security involves consistency, self-soothing, and reliable connections beyond romantic partners.
What the video covers
- Levine explains that childhood upbringing accounts for less than 10% of adult attachment style, so attachment is not fixed for life.
- Research cited suggests friendships may correlate more strongly with adult attachment style than parents do.
- Attachment styles are working models of beliefs about the world; repeated contrary evidence can change them.
- Levine introduces his 'secure priming' approach, presenting the brain with information that helps people move toward security.
- Common misconceptions include treating people as labels ('my avoidant') and assuming attachment is permanent.
- Secure functioning depends on mutual consistency, availability, and responsiveness, akin to two-factor authentication in relationships.
- Dating an avoidant partner while honoring your own needs requires clear communication and recognizing that flooding and needing space are not personal rejections.
- Anxious partners can learn to soothe themselves and build object permanence, reducing hypervigilance about a partner's responsiveness.
- Consistent, low-stakes connections with reliable people can build security alongside romantic relationships.
- The host emphasizes that the popular conversation around Attached has been oversimplified and that the newer book Secure offers fuller tools.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and key questions about attachment
- 02:00Guest background and the Attached book
- 04:16Misconceptions about childhood and adult attachment
- 09:44Dating an avoidant partner while honoring your needs
- 14:14Building secure mode and reliability in relationships
- 21:30Self-soothing, object permanence, and hypervigilance
- 30:00Closing thoughts and recommendation of Secure
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
like this. Well, today we have the author of Attached, Amir Levine, in the studio to talk about all those questions and more. Hello, hello, hello and welcome to another episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina
Speaker A
Well, today we have the author of Attached, Amir Levine, in the studio to talk about all those questions and more. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar, and I am your host.
Speaker A
Attached, started this massive conversation about attachment styles, anxious avoidant disorganized are they an [ __ ] do they just not like me? All of those questions answered today. And guys, I'm so excited as always. Thank you so much for being
Speaker A
Welcome back, my babes. We've got such a special episode. Amir Levine is such an incredible human being, and he is the author of Attached and his new book called Secure. Amir Levine's book, Attached, started this massive conversation about attachment styles: anxious, avoidant, disorganized. Are they a [ __ ]? Do they just not like me? All of those questions answered today.
Speaker A
here. You could work one-on-one, ask a question, work with me in some capacity, or just be here. There's ad-free if you guys don't want to deal with the ads, or please support our show's sponsors who help keep this as a free resource. And
Speaker A
And guys, I'm so excited, as always. Thank you so much for being here. Please don't forget to rate and review the show. Snag Amir's book, Secure. It's [ __ ] amazing. There are so many tools in there that are going to help you toward your earned secure. And if you guys need anything, I'm always here. You could work one-on-one, ask a question, work with me in some capacity, or just be here. There's an ad-free option if you guys don't want to deal with the ads, or please support our show's sponsors, who help keep this a free resource. And don't forget to rate, review, and leave a comment. Let me know what you think. Let me know any questions we didn't answer, anything you're confused about. I am here to help support you guys, and I want to make sure that you feel equally supported in this community.
Speaker A
feel equally as supported in this community. All right, babes. Without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Amir [ __ ] Levine. Do you understand how excited and honored I am to have you in the studio? Welcome to
Speaker A
All right, babes. Without further ado, let's get right into it, shall we? Amir [ __ ] Levine. Do you understand how excited and honored I am to have you in the studio? Welcome to The Sabrina Zohar Show.
Speaker A
I see you on social media all the time and I just I love your content. I just really love it.
Speaker A
Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker A
Oh, yeah. Just hit me with everything you have. I'll I'll I'll do my best.
Speaker A
I'm such a fan of your work. I see you on social media all the time, and I just love your content. I really love it.
Speaker A
You didn't just change culture, you became like a cultural phenomena and how you brought forward, I think, a really important conversation. But then, like all good things, it gets hijacked and then it gets taken. But before we even
Speaker A
Oh, I'm so excited. When we first found out you were going to be on the show, I thought, I hope he's okay if I ask hard questions.
Speaker A
Thank you You're making me blush. I actually I I really I'm I'm a psychiatrist and I'm both an adult and a child psychiatrist. I spent many, many years in school. And then, when I was done with my training, I found
Speaker A
Oh, yeah. Just hit me with everything you have. I'll do my best.
Speaker A
back then I was just learning to do the science, but a lot more in Secure to take all the lessons that I know about a brain and then kind of like marry them together with attachment science to help
Speaker A
I'm excited. Okay, before we get started, can you tell us a little more about yourself? When I say the book you wrote, everyone and their mother is going to know Attached. You didn't just change the culture, you became a cultural phenomenon, and you brought forward what I think is a really important conversation. But like all good things, it gets hijacked and taken. Before we get to all of that, could you tell us a little more about you and your background?
Speaker A
But I wanted to even start with, what have you found that's been the most helpful? Cuz I My partner's more avoidant leaning and I'm more of the anxious girly. But I think for me, like I remember when I first read your book,
Speaker A
Thank you. You're making me blush. I'm a psychiatrist, both an adult and a child psychiatrist. I spent many, many years in school, and when I finished my training, I found myself doing basic neuroscience research. I became a molecular neuroscience geek. In a way, I'm really glad it happened, because I was able to merge a lot of these different things in Attached. Back then I was just learning to do the science, but in Secure I took all the lessons I know about the brain and married them with attachment science to help people become more secure.
Speaker A
Because it allowed me to go, "Oh, there's not something wrong with me. This makes sense, right? There's a reason I act like this." Now, I tried to use it as responsibly as I could, but I would be honest, right? I would go on
Speaker A
Oh, I love this. That book is going to be game-changing. I have my list of everything I want to ask you, but I wanted to start with this: what have you found to be the most helpful? My partner leans more avoidant, and I'm more of the anxious girly. When I first read your book, I'll never forget it. I was holding it, I put it down, looked up, and went, "Oh my god, he's avoidant." And that was my ex, and I was like, "Oh my god, and I'm anxious." It allowed me to think, "There's not something wrong with me. This makes sense. There's a reason I act like this." I tried to use it as responsibly as I could, but I'll be honest: I would go on the internet and see "my avoidant." I was like, "What do you mean, my avoidant? They're not a Furby. They don't own this person." But "my avoidant this" and "the avoidant that." What do you think the biggest misconceptions are that you've seen?
Speaker A
the avoidant that. But what have you really seen I think the misconceptions? I really want to start there that you've started to see.
Speaker A
First of all, the idea that the attachment style you have as a child is the attachment style you'll have as an adult. That's probably one of the biggest misconceptions, because the research repeatedly shows that's not the case. Your upbringing explains a very small amount of your adult attachment style, less than 10%.
Speaker A
case. Your upbringing explains a small, very small amount of your adult attachment style. So, less than 10%.
Speaker A
Oh, [ __ ]. Yes, and there's one study I was looking at this morning before coming here that shows friendships have a greater correlation with your adult attachment style than your parents do.
Speaker A
Oh. But still, all of these effects are modest and at the end of the day, we're really the the sum the summation of all of our different social experiences, I think, and some of our own personal where we come from, our genetics, all
Speaker A
Oh. Still, all of these effects are modest. At the end of the day, we're really the sum of all our social experiences, along with where we come from and our genetics, all of which gets funneled in. But the good news is we can constantly evolve and change our attachment styles. An attachment style is basically a working model, a set of beliefs and ideas about the world. If we bombard the brain with evidence to the contrary, it can change. That's the basic premise of Secure and of this whole secure priming approach I've been working on for years: how to change the brain, how to present it with different information so you can see, "Huh, maybe I got it wrong. I can change now."
Speaker A
if we bombard the brain with evidence to the contrary, it can change. And that's really that the basic premise of this of secure and this whole secure priming therapy, this whole new approach that I've been working on for all these
Speaker A
How do you feel when you're on the same side of the internet and you see this flood of "How to fix your anxious attachment" and "How to get the avoidant to do what you want"? How do you feel on the receiving end of all of that?
Speaker A
When you go on and you see this inundation of like, "How to fix your anxious attachment. How to get the avoidant to do what you want." Like, how do you feel on the receiving end, like watching all of this? Like, what are you
Speaker A
I hear the plea. People really struggle in relationships, not just romantic ones but friendships and work relationships too, and it's painful. So people are searching for answers, and a lot of the information out there is a little misguided. Maybe a lot misguided, but it sends you down the wrong path. So the whole idea in writing Secure is to set people on a better and more effective path.
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some and a lot of the information out there is a little bit misguided. A little bit.
Speaker A
What is one thing people have wrong or don't really understand about avoidance?
Speaker A
better path and and a more effective path. What is one thing people have wrong or don't really understand about avoidance?
Speaker A
The problem with avoidant people is that they don't understand the rest of the world doesn't experience relationships the way they do. For example, they take care of their own problems, and they do it really well. So if you come to them and say, "Oh my god, I have a problem, please help me," they're perplexed. They're like, "What do you want from me? Heal thyself. I can help you, but you help yourself." They don't realize that this in itself creates a huge attachment backlash. For the rest of the population, maybe 25% of people are avoidant, so they're the minority, and the rest of us get very upset when we come to someone for help and they tell us, "You know what? Go help yourself." We'll forget about the original problem, and now you've become the problem. One of the tools I teach in Secure is for avoidants
Speaker A
So, if you come to them, "Oh my god, I have a problem. Please help me." They're like perplexed. They're just like, "What do you want from me? Like heal thyself.
Speaker A
Like I can help you. You help yourself." And they don't understand that that in and of itself creates a huge attachment backlash because for the rest of the population, maybe avoidants are about 25% of the population, they're the
Speaker A
minority. The rest of us will be very upset if we come to help with someone and they'll tell us, "You know what? You go help yourself." In fact, we'll forget about the problem that we had and now you become the problem. And one of the
Speaker A
tools that I teach in secure is for avoidants to really avoid some of these very There are three main common common pitfalls that they fall into and kind of like how to circumvent them towards greater security. So, the three main
Speaker A
pitfalls are I take care of my own problems, so should you. The second one is not respecting the attachment homeostasis, which is like a big word for baseline, the attachment baseline, and I'll explain. And then the third one is not being aware of what
Speaker A
I've come to call the closeness overdose. What's the See, now you're just you give me more so much. What's the closeness overdose? Because this is fascinating to me.
Speaker A
So, the closeness overdose is when if you're avoidant, and again, there's so much that they don't know about themselves, and that's the biggest problem, I think. And I often find in my practice that when you teach them, they're like, "Huh, okay. I can do that.
Speaker A
I can do this. They're workable." At least And And there's a reason why I think they're workable, and we can go into that because we actually all have secure kernels within us, and it's a way you can summon those secure kernels from
Speaker A
them. So, back to the closeness overdose. The closeness overdose is they think that they're not interested in someone, or they start going out with someone, and all of a sudden they feel that they're not interested, and they feel
Speaker A
it's only because they haven't met the right person yet. It's not the one. They're not the one.
Speaker A
They Because it feels that way to them. They All of a sudden feel that, "Oh, I don't know if I like this person so much. I don't like the way they eat. I don't like the way like they're like they they
Speaker A
breathe." I don't know. It's just like all these deactivating strategies kick in. They can't control it. And often times these deactivating strategies kick in because they're so eager to find their one, so when they find someone that they like, they go all in, and they
Speaker A
create a lot of closeness really fast. Really too much for their own good, and that's when their own biology says, "Wait a second. This is not comfortable for me." So, then it starts to sort of like, "Wait a second." And they have
Speaker A
these deactivating strategies kick in without being aware of it, and then they can't really do much about it. What I really teach people in my private practice is to learn to respect their avoidant needs, and ease into closeness.
Speaker A
And there There really little tricks that you can do that can really help avoidance both be secure and actually get the distance that they want.
Speaker A
Okay, so then how can you be in a relationship with someone more avoidant while still honoring your own needs?
Speaker A
The thing about attachment, it's a simple neurocircuitry. It's not a very complicated system. It's really about how we feel safe in the in the world.
Speaker A
So, for example, when I came in here today, uh because a lot of pets have attachment too and it's so easy to see how pets react to attachment. So, your dog, Kobe? Kobe was first in the door. I
Speaker A
had to greet him. I had to pet him. I had to really uh give him a little bit of attention and he just loved it. And now he's not here anymore. He's not clawing at the door asking to come in
Speaker A
for me to actually give him more attention. But probably if I'd ignored him, he would be like, "No, I need my dose of attention." Oh, yeah.
Speaker A
That's attachment at play. Same thing with all of us and especially with avoidance. Uh avoidance have to learn that if you give the other person a little bit of attention, the way I did with Kobe, not a person, but still attaches, that
Speaker A
actually eases everything and they'll leave you alone. At- like good relationships are not meant for people to constantly want attention from you or want your response. Once you give them, if you learn how to do it strategically, you get all the space that you need.
Speaker A
They're not going to think about you. They're going to be out there exploring the world because attachment is inextricably linked to our exploratory drive.
Speaker A
Mm, that's very interesting. It's interesting cuz I like I just mentioned earlier, I've got things anxious bug and Ryan's got the more avoidant. And you know, I also wanted to talk to you cuz I think that you were saying like or maybe
Speaker A
I was reading in the book that the recent studies is that like it's not like especially avoidant doesn't necessarily have to have been like your caregivers. They're I was seeing that like it it also could be a biological
Speaker A
response. Probably same with anxiety, too. Um Um, but people ask us all the time like how did you and Ryan make a relationship work? How do you have an anxious and avoidant relationship? And the main thing that I think a lot of people want
Speaker A
to circumvent when we're talking about this is that both people need to be doing the work because if it's one person that's growth-minded, that wants to have the conversation, that's willing to sit in the discomfort, and the other
Speaker A
person's leaving all the time or screaming, right? Either way, you're not going to actually get any [ __ ] where.
Speaker A
You're not going to make any progress. Right. But when we have one person, or sometimes they'll say, "Hey, I'm flooded. I need 5 minutes." And I have to then go, "Okay, Sab, this doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you.
Speaker A
He's flooded. You didn't do anything. You're allowed to also take 5 minutes." Where I had to learn that space isn't the enemy because I was always taught that when someone walks out on you or leaves you, that means you did wrong.
Speaker A
You are a bad girl and you should be punished for that. And it wasn't until now having a corrective experience because I had been with my fair share of, if I'd like to diagnose, avoidant, right? Which is another thing that
Speaker A
drives me [ __ ] insane, is people diagnosing, "They're avoidant. My avoidant." It's like, "How do you know that about this person? You had one [ __ ] date or you text them for 3 weeks and now all of a sudden, it's
Speaker A
like, here's the other side of the coin. They might not be avoidant. Maybe they're just not into you. Or maybe they're just not as expressive. Or maybe they're just somebody that's a little bit more closed off. Doesn't mean we
Speaker A
have to identify their attachment style. But what it really was for me, and I'm curious to see if like you've seen this as, you know, as we're talking about moving into a more secure space, that I had to let go of this narrative
Speaker A
that I was never going to, right? That like earned secure is something that we can all move towards.
Speaker A
And I'm curious for you as you've been doing this work, right? As we've seen, we go from attached, right? Having all this, which I know you had said like 50% of the population was secure. Are we still thinking that or are we thinking
Speaker A
it's a little less? I think there's there conflicting reports. Let's just say it that way. I mean, and that's another one of the myths is that we can have different attachment style with different people.
Speaker A
And attachment styles can change. So, all these different things really make a a much more nuanced, um, much more workable, actually, system than people give it credit for. And that's part of what I really go into in Secure. I go into
Speaker A
really teaching the very basic tools of what you can do in order to get out of that insecure space for both anxious and avoidant and fearful avoidants. I I have to tell you the truth, nowadays, I will I even talk to my sister, we're very
Speaker A
close, and we've talked and we've even commented to each other about how we hardly even talk about, "Oh, he's anxious. They're avoidant." We really talk more about That was like the the starting point. Now we talk more about
Speaker A
the tools. Oh, are they CARP? And I'll explain in a minute. What are the seenies like? There's all these different tools that I've created in Secure Priming Therapy to really take it us a step beyond the attachment styles.
Speaker A
And okay, what can we do now to put us in secure mode? Cuz if that's I really like to call it secure mode, because the benefits of living in secure mode are far beyond just our our romantic relationships or even our friendships or
Speaker A
they're also psychologically and physiologically for us specifically. So, there's research that shows that being learning to live more securely and being like secure helps people longevity. People live longer. Even if you have a challenging health crisis, you deal with
Speaker A
it better and you have less symptoms. We didn't even know that all that research didn't exist when I wrote Attached.
Speaker A
Which I do want to understand about CARP and the seenies, because what is the new research? Like tell me a little bit more about from 15 years plus ago from where you were to where we are now. What are
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you seeing matter more? Because I think a lot of people hold on to Well, I have anxious attachment. And it's almost like this get out of jail free card of like, "Well, I'm allowed to treat people. Like I'm allowed to go and say inner [ __ ]
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text 100 times cuz I have anxious attachment." And it's like, what else is part of the conversation here that we need to be having?
Speaker A
So, I think what's really important to understand is that it's a again, we'll go back to the idea that it's a safety system. And it's a very simple system.
Speaker A
It's like a radar. So, is there like a switch to turn the radar off so it doesn't to turn the alarm system off so it doesn't go all the time. Who wants to live in a house where the alarm system
Speaker A
goes off all the time? It's just like it's impossible to live like that. So, the idea is really coming up with something very useful that people can use to really understand what secure is in the in the most in the simplest way
Speaker A
possible. And they came up with these I call them the five pillars of a secure life. Um and it consists of learning that you want to be that way and you want others to be that way in your life.
Speaker A
They both have to do the work, you're right. And not just a partner, your environment in general. So, you want people you want you and other people to be consistent, available, and responsive.
Speaker A
Cuz it's really it's a and it's a very simple system. And that's what we monitor for all the time.
Speaker A
Um and it's not enough that you think, "Oh, I'm so great. I'm consistent, available, and responsive." You You need to make sure that the other person experiences you as reliable and predictable. So, together that's CARP: consistent available responsive
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reliable, and predictable. And it's like a two-factor authentication. You need to be consistent, available, and responsive, and the other person needs to be and experience you as reliable and predictable.
Speaker A
So, that's the first thing. So, it makes things it makes a lot of conversations so much simpler when you have that CARP sort of tool. Um and I can give you an example.
Speaker A
Please. I just finished doing like a master class uh and the the editor was doing like a text uh box about some of the class and he said something, "Oh, when someone isn't CARP, you have to tell them about
Speaker A
how they've hurt your feelings and how this and that and I said, "No, no, no, no. You have to really understand. It's not so much about hurting someone's feelings.
Speaker A
Um it's much more about hurting the brain." When we don't where people are not consistent, available, and responsible to us, that hurts the brain. There's all this research that looks at something that's called like exclusion and and when people are ignoring you or
Speaker A
excluding you and the research is beyond. It just like shows how harmful it is for our brains and how much our brain hates that. Sort of that all of a sudden lack of connectivity. So, it's not about, "Oh, you made me feel bad."
Speaker A
and um which it does. Of course, it does. But then with the other thing that people do is they relate it back to their childhood also. And because I grew up, this this is this is what happened to me when I was younger and now I'm so
Speaker A
much sensitive to it. But the research doesn't show that. The research shows that uh exclusion and that all of a sudden when people aren't corp with us, it will hurt us no matter what kind of childhood we had.
Speaker A
Mhm. And so, when you tell people, "You know, I um really think that corp is important.
Speaker A
Um and I'm going to try to be this way and I think other people I'm looking for other people in my life that are this way." it's a game-changer.
Speaker A
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Speaker A
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Speaker A
What I'm really hearing as well is like, cuz I I any time I'm like, what are green flags, right? What are green flags we want to look at? Most of our audience is dating, but not all of them. Some of
Speaker A
us are in relationships, and some people might be married. Consistency, reciprocity like patience. All of these things, especially consistency, right? For me, I had a very inconsistent household. You didn't know, my brother was taken when I was a kid to a drug program, my dad was
Speaker A
in and out with his mistress, and it was boy, was it hectic. And so for me, that was such a reconfirmation experience, right, to my nervous system, to have someone that like, oh, when we get into a fight, you don't leave. When we get
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into an argument, you sit with me, right? That is something that is so beautiful, and I think a lot of us want to over conflate, as if like, oh wow, no, you're making it sound easy. And it's like, I think you're actually more
Speaker A
complicating it than it needs to be, because if you're sitting there having a conversation with someone, and you don't feel that they're consistent, or that they're respectful, or that they're going to show up for you, or then how do
Speaker A
you trust this person, right? How can you build trust? And we don't need to blame our attachment style. Maybe it's just that's a human on a human level. I think that would make anybody feel insecure.
Speaker A
Yeah, we all have a radar like in our head that constantly surveys for the for the availability of the people in our lives.
Speaker A
Everybody does. And if I were to tell you that like your loved ones, I don't know, someone in your family that I don't know like a terrible earthquake happened there or something like that. You would have a really hard time continuing this
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conversation. You'd have to stop and make sure that they're okay and then you can continue on. So, we have this idea where our loved ones are and that they're available. That there's like this attachment tug that goes on. And when it gets disrupted,
Speaker A
that's when our brain goes that's basically this this switch that turns on the alarm system. And some people the alarm system blares more loudly and other people less. And that's the thing for secure people it's harder to turn on
Speaker A
the alarm system and they like they can turn it off more easily. But, we can also tweak our environment so the alarm system isn't turned on so much. And CARP is basically a very simple tool that people can use they
Speaker A
they need to learn to be consistent, available, and responsive, reliable, and predictable and then they can teach other to be that way with them. And the beauty is when avoidants learn to be CARP with you and it's really not in the in big moments.
Speaker A
I'm talking about a lot of people when they look for change they think they need to go and talk about their childhood experiences or or really difficult things that have happened to them.
Speaker A
And they rarely think about what I've come to call the seemingly insignificant minor minor interactions of everyday life. If you understand the brain from a neuroscience perspective, especially from I'm going to throw in another word like I'm I I do epigenetic research
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which is how basically we change our brain, really the structure of of And our brain changes all the time.
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So, if we understand the brain from that perspective, we know that each and every small interaction like that, micro-interaction, is an opportunity for change.
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And if we seize on those moments and accumulate more and more carpe diem's, where people are consistent, available, and response responsive to us, and we are to others, then we positively can really change on a very a very fun the mental
Speaker A
level in our brain. We can really change the structure of our brain. It's the conversation, I think, that's important.
Speaker A
Right. And so, it's finding a solution. That to me, it's the dance of feeling heard, feeling like, "Wow, you actually care about me." And it's not, you know, cuz I've had my fair share where you're like, "Hey, you know, I I remember this
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one guy I dated." And this is where I would say I changed the way I dated after this guy. He was the most everything on paper, right? He was super successful and handsome and charming and all my god, I got sign, sealed,
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delivered. I remember calling my mom being like, "Blah blah blah blah blah." And he lived out of town, and so he was coming back and forth, and he was supposed to stay with me.
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And I hadn't spoken to him in like 5 days. And I remember telling him like, "Hey, I I don't feel connected with you, you know, can can we talk about something?" And it would be one thing if he was like, "Hey, totally get it,
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right? Like then I Instead, I got a voice note, "Baby girl, relax, okay? Like go live your life. I'm living my life. Like, I'm out with my friends right now. You're making this something it's just not." And it was this whole 3 minutes of him
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excusing how all of that did you're making this something it's not. You're being the And that's in that moment where I was like, "Oh, you're just unavailable, right? Like this isn't You're just You're not available to attune in the
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ways that I need." But, some of the research that I talk about in Secure is how actually people with anxious attachment style, they have this sixth sense of noticing a lot of different things in the world, not just danger,
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uh but a lot of social cues and other cues that other people can't see. And that's a huge advantage and it tells people like let's say if you're day trading on Wall Street, you see trends before everybody else does. And you if
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you're like if you have the gumption and you'll bet on it, people like that I have in my practice made a ton lot of money because of that anxious attachment style because you have this amazing ability. But it comes
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with a price. So it's not about healing it, it's about learning to live with that ability to see things that other people can't see.
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Yeah, that's how I feel about having ADHD brained. For a long time it's very like shame on that. Oh, you're too fast and you do this and you need to slow down. And so for a long time I had this
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Achilles heel this this just chip on my shoulder of like you're [ __ ] up, there's something wrong with you, you get so anxious. Until I learned to live with it and learned to love it and say, wait a minute, how can I use this to my
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advantage? I'm like, okay, yeah, you're right. I might be really fast which means I get worked on a lot quicker which means I can I can literally have a conversation with you but I can also see everything that's going on so that by
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the time I'm done, I'm already checked in. I don't want anyone to feel like anything is wrong with them for having an attachment style. Whether that be anxious avoidant disorganized it doesn't matter, right? It doesn't matter where you fall on the spectrum and I
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think we've villainized the avoidant as like they don't care and they're just [ __ ] which I don't believe that. I think that they have their own anxiety.
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Like my sister's avoidant, she'll start to cry and I can see it and I'm like, up, she shut down, that's it, she can't because it's too scary for her. It's too dangerous what's on the other side of that. And then same with the the anxious
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person, right? Like it's beautiful that we have these but then that could go the pendulum can swing, right? When we're freaking out and having panic attacks because someone didn't call us and we didn't get what we want and we're like
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that's it, we're burning the house down and then all of a sudden you get the call and you're fine and everything's okay. But I think if we can look at instead of how do I get rid of it and
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how do I fix it, how do I learn to love it and live with it? To me, that would be earned secure and I'm curious, how do you work towards becoming more insecure?
Speaker A
So, there's a few things that you mentioned that I really, really, relate to. Um, the one thing about ADHD, I think what I talk about and that's the the third part of the book is it more about how you can secure your mind. I describe
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this uh idea about how we all biologically so diverse uh and because we're so diverse, we have we all have our what I've come to call these inner sparks of talent.
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But the problem is often time the people with insecure attachment style and often time anxious but not only uh some of the time their most uh amazing inner sparks of talents, they see them as impediments. And I even have
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a whole sort of workshop in the book about how you can write down your inner spark of talent and uh realize uh or potentially what you think are your impediments are and then see take a look a closer look at it more from a
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secure stance and see how it could actually be an inner spark of talent and maybe you're not giving it the right environment to really flourish.
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Um and sometimes that's all it takes. When we are securely attached to others, sometimes the one word, even a hug, can make us feel so much better, so much very, very quickly because we're a social species. Yeah. Um and what that's
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one of the things that you find in the the strange situation test is how effective that bond is in regulating the the child's emotion. There's no Xanax or Klonopin in the world that can even get close to that.
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Even to have a request, right? Hey, I'd like this. What makes the breaks for me is the acknowledgement of like, hey, thanks for letting me know that's what you need. Right? Maybe it's I want to see you more often. Maybe it's I want
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more depth, right? Like Ryan and I went through that where he's just he's not the most expressive person. Like he's that very classic aspect of the avoidant where like he'll answer he always says it, I'll answer questions but I'm not
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really going to ask as many at first. Or he'll be there he to him it was just like, I'm just happy to be with you." And then me, I'm like, I talk and I connect and like [ __ ] my brain. Like
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let's go. I really want to And so at first I was like, "Ugh, I'm bored with him and he's not it." But then I had to realize like, "Well, wait a minute. Part of being secure is also knowing that one
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person isn't going to satisfy every need." Exactly. Then I'm going to have friends that will.
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people with who are having anxious Remember they're both the need and ability for a lot of closeness.
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Mhm. And so and um once you know that they this other person is here to stay and and you know it. Like you can do because the way that it sounds like that uh you're able to negotiate things
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then it gave you that idea. This person is carp even though he can't text me right away, but he's here to stay.
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Yeah. So it creates this level of that's it creates a secure blanket that gives you more leeway to accept than what they need as as their their animal needs are.
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We all have our different animal needs, but you have to be You have to find a way, but what I'm trying to say in secure is that it's not that hard. It's much It's easier than people think because it's not a very smart system,
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the attachment system. It's kind of stupid. It's like a radar. It's like on and off. And so you find a way to pacify it and then you get all like it's like you're a little the little kid. You
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don't care about the mom sitting in the background. You're there playing all day long. Every once in a while you'll look.
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So if you can create that thing that you can look and you know that they're there, like you have that inner understanding that they're there, you're not going to think about them. You go That's That's what really good
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relationships are about. They're not in the center of the forefront of your mind. They recede into the background so you can create and you can live your life. You can raise children. There's all It's It's a working unit.
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My mom always says they're an addition to your life not instead of. Yes. kind of what you're saying. Like this is additive. This is a part of your life.
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It's not your life. And that code That's where we get into codependency and all that. It's like if I, you know, I I have it. I'll get the girls that are like, "They didn't text me, but they're on
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social media." And then the hypervigilance kicks in where they're like, "It's been 3 hours and 4 minutes since they responded." And it's like, that's where then I look and say, "But then this isn't about them anymore.
Speaker A
Because if it was about them, then we'd be able to say, 'Oh, wait a minute, they're flying today. I know that they're not going to answer me back because they're on a flight, or they're in a work meeting, or they didn't expect
Speaker A
that I was going to text them, so may not burning the house down, right? You were talking about the fire alarm, I was talking about smoke alarm. But imagine if every single time the smoke alarm goes off, and eventually you're like,
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'There's no [ __ ] fire.'" Like, that's to me what what helped me with through the anxious attachment was learning to understand the difference between I'm setting off the smoke alarm because I am feeling out of control and I'm trying to
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gain it versus, "Hey, I think there's smoke, so there might be fire, and I'd like to get curious about that cuz I learned to trust myself." Right.
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And I am curious, for anyone listening today, if somebody is saying, "I don't know where to begin." Where do we begin outside of obviously buying the book and reading it? But where do you begin? What is a tool that we can give I've a tool
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week. Where is somebody could could begin today on even what whatever their attachment style is to be able to make one step closer towards being secure?
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I think the way to begin is to really educate yourself about what the attachment neuro circuitry's all about, that it's a simple um radar system or alarm system, and you learn with you using those carp and the seamies how to keep it at bay. And with
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some people it's easier to keep it at bay, and with our others it requires a little bit more fine-tuning, but it really once you learn how to fine-tune it, it's really not a lot of work.
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And if it continues to be a lot of work, so that's where I talk about in the book, I talk about the carp intervention, and then what do you do when the carp intervention doesn't work.
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And it can be in dating, and it can be with friends, and it can be in sort of many different social situations.
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Um So I think it's really important to understand that people who have an anxious attachment style, because of that extra layer of sensitivity or ability to see things that other people can't see, um they can get triggered more easily.
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So, the idea is to try to create the most secure environment for themselves. And they can do that by really trying to curate their um their social surrounding. Here's where the attention really needs to shift. Because sometimes most of the time we have other secure
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people in our lives that we hardly pay any attention to because they're boring. They'll always they're carp. They'll always show up for us. They're there when we text them, they they text us back. They're always there for us. So,
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our attention goes into the drama. And I say, "No, no, no. What you can do now is instead of like question, question, are you okay?" Text the secure person who's always So, it's a a simple shift in your
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attention. And now you are And then you open the door to more secure influences in your life. And that's a huge game changer. It sounds like such a little thing to do, but now you're shifting the focus in your life towards more secure
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people. Oh, yeah. I remember when I first when and I had our first date we slept together on the first date. So, that's when you said it I was like, "Hey, hey, hey, so did I." And I remember sitting
Speaker A
there being like, "Man, you're never going to hear from this guy again." And I was like, "You know what? Maybe he will, right? Like maybe that's not That's why I started my career." I was like, "The dating advice I was hearing
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it wasn't a one-size-fits-all. Like, no, I don't want to wait three months. I don't want to like Dar, I want to know if we're compatible sexually a lot earlier." And when we left, I remember I looked him in the eyes and this is like
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his my version of seeing if he was if I could have carp. And I said, "I had a really great time, but I want to just be 100% clear with you. I don't do casual and I don't do the hookup thing. I'm not
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your friend with benefits. If you want to see me again and you call me, that's because we're actually building something and you're getting to know me.
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If not, please don't waste my [ __ ] time. I had a great time tonight, but I don't need to know And he just looked at me he was like, "That was really sexy." And And ask him now, "Why did you go go out with her?"
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And he was like, she wasn't afraid of losing herself. She was a She didn't care about losing me. She cared about was she going to lose her. And I made sure that throughout the relationship, I never cuz people ask, how did you change
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him? It's like, I didn't change him. I showed up in the way that I wanted someone to show up for me, and I made the choice and determination, if you'd like to join, I'm [ __ ] here, let's do
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it, and if not, that's okay. There will be people because it's true, like you said, building that secure environment means having yoga classes that were predictable for me that I knew I could go to cuz I loved the teacher.
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exactly. And then exercise is super important. Oh, it's everything. Like just But knowing, right? You have your your one friend that no matter what, you know that they'll answer you. My dog, right?
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Before he passed away, like Clem was my object permanence. He was everything. He was safety to me cuz I never experienced that. But it's so important to even just have one glimmer of your day because that helps us because like I We didn't
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have a good to talk cuz my last question for you. Limerence. I want to know a little bit more because I think that we get into We see especially with the anxious folk, right? This obsession, this hyper fixation of like, I just need to get
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them. Even when this person is very clearly not somebody for them. From the data, from what you're seeing, where does that come from? What is that?
Speaker A
It can be so painful and so hard and so heartbreaking. Um and I've learned over time to really respect that. I think what happens is people I think what people really need to do is earlier on, do what you did, like that
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carpet intervention right up front and center. I mean, I think you should do it on your dating profile. I mean, for me, what's important is people that are consistent, available, and responsive. I am that way. I expect that from you,
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too. I really should sort of shout it from the rooftops because of limerence. Exactly because of that because once if you go into it, and many people with anxious attachment, oh, I don't want to rock the boat too much. Oh, like like I
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don't want to do anything that's going to jeopardize the relationship. No, you do You to do that. You want to rock the boat. You want to see if this person is right for you because let's say let's say you would have scared him
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away. Good. Run away. Go. Like run away because this is who I am. So you kind of like told him from the very good go.
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Each person should have I call it in the book your secure spiel. You should create a little sort of secure You gave him a secure spiel.
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Give him a spiel. Yes. And this is this is who I am. That's what to expect. This is me showing up. So once you if you don't do that then you don't want to rock the boat. So you are
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coming in on their terms. And if those terms are not really the right terms for you and then you find it out 3 months in or a month in or like when you're already when you're already really so much more emotionally
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involved, then you're in trouble. Then it can take a long long time for you to let it go. And it needs a lot of patience. I think the pain is unavoidable.
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But what you can do is you can It's a huge surge of energy and you can take that energy and you can try to channel it to something that will pay off in the next round. Because you showed up and you can form
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relationships. And for some reason here like it didn't work. Yeah. But you can still show up and and that's the beauty of attachment is that when a window closes, a door opens.
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I had to let go for me. I I my whole career started from hitting rock bottom.
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So I understand. It's It's It's an energy cuz it gives you like you know what?
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I'm going to take this and I'm going to make I'm going to take this really horrible lemon.
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Yeah. I'm going to make a [ __ ] lemonade. Yes. I'm not giving up.
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No. And you know what I had to let go of too was like [ __ ] the avoidant and don't do that. I had to really let go of that and say it doesn't matter the attachment style. It matters what they're doing
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with it. Because I would never I would never be with Ryan if I listened to the clickbait on TikTok being like [ __ ] the avoidant. Avoidants are narcissists and No. That's really a very big problem.
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There's a lot of insecure priming that happens online. And what I'm saying is we all have that potential to be more secure. So I really we try to channel it and bring it up out of people. And basically even what you did with the
Speaker A
with Ryan was kind of like trying to see can I reach into that sort of secure kernel within you and pull it out and can you sort of meet me there?
Speaker A
Um Amir, I could sit here and talk to you all day about this, but we've been yapping.
Speaker A
Okay, where can people find you and the book? Tell us everything. We'll have it linked in the show notes, but plug away.
Speaker A
you can go you can go to amirlevinemd.com. There you can actually take a an attachment quiz with many different people in your life including your pet.
Speaker A
And yeah, and then learn more about secure priming therapy and all that on the on my website.
Speaker A
And don't forget to get the book Secure because Attached changed the world. So let's let Secure hopefully course correct on just what people have taken cuz it's not what you wrote.
Speaker A
Right. No, it's definitely not what I wrote. what you wrote cuz I read your book like seven times. I know what's in there.
Speaker A
That's why when I hear sometimes the other side I'm like where did you get that from? Like that was some 22-year-old that doesn't understand attachment styles and dated some [ __ ] that But I think that people talk out of
Speaker A
their own pain. Of course. That's what I'm saying like you're you're just hurting. I get that.
Speaker A
But we are spreading that misinformation which is so I know. detrimental. So let's get to Secure.
Speaker A
That's why your work is so important. Likewise. Amir, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker A
I really loved it. Thank you.
Topics:attachment stylesanxious attachmentavoidant attachmentearned secureAmir LevineAttachedSecurerelationshipsself-soothingadult attachment
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