Speaker A
We're rolling, guys. How do I look? I got, I got... I don't like shorts. I'm not a shorts person, but they sent me this stuff.
Armin van Buuren discusses his struggles with depression, drinking, and pressure despite success as a five-time #1 DJ, on Seth Troxler's podcast.
Key Takeaways
- Success in electronic music can coexist with serious depression, anxiety, and substance struggles.
- Pressure to repeat hits and meet expectations can drive creative paralysis and burnout.
- Touring culture and social pressure often fuel escalating drinking and loneliness.
- Therapy and perspective shifts helped Armin recover and reframe success around gratitude and others.
What the video covers
- Seth Troxler and Bill Patrick host Armin van Buuren on the Flirting with Friendship podcast (season two).
- Armin describes becoming the world's #1 DJ at age 31 in 2007 and feeling impostor syndrome and pressure to top each 'big drop'.
- He reveals he became depressed around 2010, despite a happy marriage, touring success, and a child on the way.
- Armin discusses how his drinking escalated from one glass of champagne before shows to finishing a bottle, though he kept it hidden from view.
- He describes a difficult period around 2018-2019 when he struggled to understand unhappiness while having everything.
- The conversation covers the loneliness of touring, yes-people entourages, and the emptiness of hotel rooms after shows.
- Armin says the industry is a fictional portrayal and warns young DJs about its dark side, referencing Avicii's death.
- He discusses 'the fear' artists face when following up big hits and the pressure of supporting a whole business around them.
- Armin says he is still in therapy and now feels grateful, focusing more on others and his role in a bigger picture.
- The episode also includes lighthearted banter and discussion of music, DJing, and the Dutch dance music scene.
Chapters
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker B
A little bit like grimace. Huh?
Speaker C
A little grimacy, but a little grimacy, yeah? [laughter] All right. [music] Welcome back to Flirting with Friendship. I'm Seth Troxler, and my main man, Bill Patrick. Today we've got a very special guest, maybe one of the biggest GOATs in the game. Uh, definitely the biggest GOAT [music] in the trance game. Mr. Armin van Buuren.
Speaker D
All right, Armin van Buuren. He's been named the number one DJ in the world [music] five times. That's five times more than me. He's built a career most DJs would consider impossible: sold-out arenas, a 25-year run in radio, and decades at the top of electronic music. The very top. And during one of the most successful periods in his life, well, he was deeply unhappy. Such is life, my friends. We have all [music] been there. So in this episode, Armin opens up about how close he came to losing himself inside the career he dreamt about building, and how his worst-received album ever reminded him to reconsider what success was supposed to feel like. I know, I know, pretty heavy stuff. This is season two. We're getting deep this year, you know. You thought this podcast was like a joke, right? No.
Speaker D
We're getting serious.
Speaker E
[music] There's going to be tears.
Speaker E
What's up? How you doing? Welcome to the cast.
Speaker E
Thanks for having me, guys. You are a wild card on this serious show. But you know, I've got to say, game recognizes game, playboy. And I was like, you know, AVB and me?
Speaker E
AVB and me? What? Please tell me he's not about to compare himself to, like, the biggest DJ on the [ __ ] planet. I bet he does. Let's see.
Speaker E
Let's go. Let's go. All right. [laughter] So, we're getting to know each other a little bit. And I was like, you know, it's great you had the radio show for 25 years, which is crazy. You've probably got more media training than all of us.
Speaker F
The labels, the, you know, five-time number one. I was number one once. On Resident Advisor.
Speaker A
Not DJ Mag, yeah. What did that do for you?
Speaker B
I, I, I don't know. It kind of... Was it a difference after?
Speaker C
I think there were... I was very young. I think we both started really young. I was 24.
Speaker D
How old were you when you first got the number one? Uh, that was 2007, so I was 31.
Speaker D
Yeah, it was around the same time. I think it was 2012. Wow.
Speaker E
Something like that. It gave me impostor syndrome.
Speaker F
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I felt like I had to prove something. I know this feeling.
Speaker A
Yeah, yeah. Actually, I remember, I was in 2010 and I got real depressed.
Speaker A
With feeling the...
Speaker A
Armin, did you get sad? I got sad.
Speaker B
You get sad sometimes? Yeah, well, it was weird, because I couldn't make sense of it, you know. I had everything. I was happily married, touring the world, little one on the way, making good money, enjoying my life, really. But I guess I was just feeling the pressure of, you know, another big drop. This drop should be bigger than that drop, you know. I've shared this on other podcasts and interviews [music] and stuff, and that's kind of where my dark, dark hole started.
Speaker C
But I got out of it on the good end, I guess. Yeah. I mean, you're alive.
Speaker D
I am, yeah. You know, what's... It sounds bizarre, but it's true. I dare say that especially young and upcoming DJs, I mean, [music]
Speaker D
I think since the passing of Tim Bergling, aka Avicii, it's way more accepted to talk about it. But as great as this DJ industry is, [music] it's not real life. It's a fairy tale, almost, that we create.
Speaker E
It's definitely a fictional character that is portrayed to the world. I want to warn people, and I think that's because I've been in a very, very dark place. And I got out of it in a very good way. I feel really great right now, and I'm really blessed. Gratitude is the word that springs to mind. But as great as this industry is, and it's all true, I mean, the private jets are true, the groupies are true, the money is true, the five-star hotel rooms are true, the crowds are true, there's a dark side that we don't share on Instagram and we don't share on YouTube, and I think you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker F
I've been there. I've lost a lot of friends. I've been down the pit of, you know, addiction and all those things for many different... Yeah.
Speaker F
You know, I've got to say, coming into this, I never would have thought it, because you've always been on the outside as this perfect... I think it's also trance, right? That
Speaker F
clean boy look.
Speaker A
I was like, this motherfucker's dirty. [laughter]
Speaker B
I was like, yeah, we could have been hanging out, man.
Speaker C
Well, it became gradual, you know? First it was one glass of champagne before a show just to take the edge off. And then two glasses of champagne. [music] Before I knew it, I was finishing a bottle before I went on stage. Nobody ever
Speaker D
saw me drunk backstage, and there's no footage of me going like that, because I always had it under control. But
Speaker D
for a little while, I was struggling with myself, around 2018, [music] 2019, with how the hell I could feel unhappy if I had everything. That's what I was struggling with, you know?
Speaker D
We talked about that.
Speaker D
Yeah, I think a lot of DJs, no matter how successful, I would say I'm more of a middle-class DJ through the years, and I felt the same kind of loneliness and anxiety, trying to constantly [music]
Speaker D
impress or meet any expectations. To have it on your scale, I can't even imagine. I would think the darkness comes in [music]
Speaker D
I mean, you have a team with you when you're touring, and that's super important. I know you have a tour manager.
Speaker E
A lot of yes-people around, right? And you're on the road, everyone's trying to keep the momentum up, to continue [music] to the next show, which then often involves more drinking, or more going out, or more
Speaker F
different things to fill [music] that void. But then when you're in your hotel room after the show, all alone,
Speaker A
[music] Yeah.
Speaker B
looking at pictures of your kids, kind of coming down, it's like, [ __ ] You know? [laughter] Very true.
Speaker B
It's just me, you know? Well, I'm glad you guys are sharing this, because I think it's important. I don't want to be the guy ruining a dream for a lot of people. The dance music world is great,
Speaker C
but I think sooner or later, and it's not when you have your first hit, right?
Speaker C
When you're riding the wave, and you're like, up is the best.
Speaker D
It's the best feeling. It's not
Speaker D
the first three years of your big track, but then comes the second one. You need to write a follow-up, and people kind of expect a follow-up, and
Speaker E
a lot of people get what I call the fear, all right? I had a lot of friends, or even myself, who wrote a lot of music getting up to becoming the number one DJ. Then I got there, and I didn't want to fall, and I kind of stopped making
Speaker F
music, and I just DJ'd, and you get more cautious about everything. You get a bad review or two, and you're just like, [ __ ] this, you know? It's like, I can coast. I know other artists, big electronic music artists, who at
Speaker F
some point had a bunch of big hits, and then they get the fear, and then they're just like, I need to... what's next, you know? How do you reinvent yourself? What do you have to do? You're getting paid to do this
Speaker A
thing. You create a whole conglomerate around you, a whole set of different businesses and livelihoods: your family, the people who work for you, their families. That sits heavy on your shoulders. It's a cross to bear in
Speaker B
so many ways. Do you think that was part of your kind of downward spiral? No, you're kind of, you know, the dark... the darkness.
Speaker C
You know?
Speaker C
Absolutely. People don't see that side of everything we have to carry to continue this job.
Speaker C
I think, well, I had a lot of therapy. I'm still in therapy, by the way.
Speaker D
Therapy's a go.
Speaker E
When you the first 3 years of your big track, but then comes the second you need to write a follow-up, and people kind of expect a follow-up, and
Speaker F
And a lot of people get the I I call it the fear, all right? Like I I had a lot of friends, or even myself, I wrote a lot of music getting up to becoming the number one DJ. Then I got there, and I didn't want to fall, and I kind of stopped making
Speaker F
music, and I just DJ'd, and you're a bit more cautious about everything. You get a bad review or two, and you're just like, [ __ ] this, you know? It's like, I can coast, and I know other artists and like big electronic music artists who at
Speaker F
some point had a bunch of big hits, and then they get the fear, and then they're just like, I need to what what what's next, you know? How do you have to reinvent? Do you have to do what? You're getting paid to do this
Speaker F
thing. You create a whole conglomerate around you. It's a whole set of different businesses and livelihood, your family, the people work for you, his families, and that sits heavy on on the shoulders. It's a cross to bear in
Speaker F
so many ways. Do you think that was part of your kind of downward spiral? No, you're kind of, you know, the dark the darkness.
Speaker F
You know?
Speaker A
Absolutely. People don't see that side of of everything that we have to carry. I think to continue this job.
Speaker B
I think well, I had a lot of therapy. I'm still in therapy, by the way.
Speaker C
Therapy's a good thing. Those those bills that are there Therapy can help everyone. I think in the 40s
Speaker D
Your 40s, you just need therapy. [laughter]
Speaker E
Yeah. There's a lot to say about this, but let me let me get straight to the point. I think what I lost was finding that guy in his underwear at my parents uh bedroom where I had my first Akai
Speaker E
sampler and my Atari creating the first tracks. And when I was doing that, I wasn't thinking about creating a big drop or or creating a follow-up or, you know, the team around me. I was just having fun.
Speaker E
Yeah.
Speaker F
And I guess what what's that what's it actually about? It was really about finding that guy in his underwear at my parents bedroom again. And having fun. Like sometimes I sit in my studio by myself Monday morning 10:00 a.m. Kids are to school.
Speaker F
I just played two amazing shows in the weekend, and it's gray outside. It's the Netherlands. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I have then the ghost of last weekend's festival set is in the room. The next drop I need to write, and I'm sure
Speaker F
you've written a lot of tracks as well. You know, you're you're you're drawing in another
Speaker A
drops. We're less drops, but more weird. Yeah, you're just going to be like, oh, here's another snare fill. I'm you know, the velocity goes up, you know. You know, and here I'm pulling up again, you know. You're just there like screaming in your mind, like,
Speaker A
Why?
Speaker B
So, that's when I found actually I I don't know if you guys noticed this, but I I just dropped a completely acoustic piano album.
Speaker C
Nice. And I'm not a pianist. So, I took up piano lessons in 2018 because when I sit behind a piano, uh I just feel free to just like whatever do do whatever even do do silly stuff.
Speaker C
And it just connected me with with my my real self again. And rather than just sitting in my studio writing another drop that needs to be bigger than my previous record. Well, I've had over 300 releases, so I'm never going to write a
Speaker C
bigger drop than you know.
Speaker D
Just sitting behind the piano by myself, it just feels like I just have to my fingers and the piano and and nothing else. And that feels so authentic in a way. So, I I it was the most expensive
Speaker D
album I ever recorded cuz I worked with classical musicians, and I recorded everything in one take cuz I wanted to make that a thing.
Speaker D
Most expensive, worst received.
Speaker E
Absolutely. [laughter]
Speaker F
It has It has no streams whatsoever. But, I wanted to learn and I guess
Speaker A
you. For you. Yeah, I did it for me. I did it for me. I wanted to learn how to record in Dolby Atmos. I wanted to record everything with video as well. I wanted to record everything in one take, and I wanted to push myself. And I learned that I made
Speaker A
the mistake of thinking that even though I would had so much success with an extremely grateful for. Uh I I I I I don't know anything.
Speaker A
I don't I still need to
Speaker B
that's that is a big epiphany in itself, right? Because once once we all come to that point and to realize that actually I don't know anything in this world, this life that we're living, there's a freedom that comes with that and a reopening of kind of one's desire or
Speaker B
goals, you know? Cuz now you're getting into techno a little bit and like is that part of the reignition of your kind of uh creative prowess?
Speaker C
I got into dance music was I mean, I've been all over the place with my styles. I mean, I guess trance is closest to my heart. It has a lot to do with the fact that my dad used to
Speaker C
listen to Jean-Michel Jarre and Vangelis and Klaus Schulze and and you know, the '70s synthesizer music that we now call trance maybe.
Speaker C
But, uh in the '90s, I used to produce a lot of tracks, for example, with Olav Basoski. I made a lot of house records.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker D
Now, filter disco, you know, Armand Van Helden, you know, those kind of And I did both, actually.
Speaker D
We were going to Sorry, we just had a laugh. We're making a joke. That was like, I thought it was the other Armand.
Speaker E
[laughter] I actually met Armand and he said that he did some gigs cuz they thought they booked me.
Speaker F
Wow. He So, he came up to me and he said, "Thank you very much." [laughter] I love that. He probably was say thinking that fee, too. He was like,
Speaker A
[laughter] He's like, "I bought a house, man."
Speaker B
No, but he's he's he's such a legend and I used to like I used to analyze his his remixes particularly, but also the Witch Doctor and
Speaker C
Yeah. all those tracks. And I've actually I was just It's really funny. I was just going through my old DAT collection cuz I revamped my old DAT machine. I found some old guys who were able to to revive my DAT machine and I got some licensing
Speaker C
requests for tracks that I did under really weird names cuz I had all these synonyms, you know, this thing we used to do in the '90s, just release a track on their on their different names.
Speaker D
Yeah, yeah. So, I'm the Shoeshine Factory. I'm Hyperdrive Inc. I am Hyperdrive Inc. is a good one.
Speaker E
Armani Armani, I'm you know, all these random names you can find on internet somewhere. But um most of the tracks are just on vinyl and they're not and I have them digitally.
Speaker E
So, I was going through all these old DATs. So, it was 90 minutes of my old tracks and that would be a house track and then a trance track and then some random random ambient thing and everything I did I recorded and just
Speaker E
went through everything. I'm like, "Wow, I was really all over the place." But I was just feeling Yeah.
Speaker F
creative, you know, not not being bound. I think right now what frustrates me a little bit is that, you know, people are looking like, "Okay, who's Armin van Buuren? He's trance." And it's okay. If you want to put a trance stamp on my head, fine. By all means, go go by go
Speaker F
for it. But I've never really like when I even when I do a State of Trance radio show, it's not it's never been about just trance. It's it became so formulaic. Like, "Oh, he has a breakdown. He has a
Speaker F
beautiful melody. Oh, here comes the string pads [music] and then here's another snare roll and then oh, there's the drop." It's like stop and go music.
Speaker F
music in general has very formula based.
Speaker A
And sometimes to me it's funny when I I mean don't no disrespect to Beatport of course cuz I'm on there every day, but all the new genres that pop up all the time and you know oh there's a new genre
Speaker A
and oh now now it's main stage? It used to be trance. What why, you know? But it's good. I understand it from a from a marketing point of view that people want to know, you know, if I buy if I prepare for a set and I want to play a techno
Speaker A
set it's it's convenient to have a techno section. It makes sense, but I mean what what they call techno I I think it's trance.
Speaker A
Exactly. Exactly. That's that's my point. like this is techno and I'm like guy from Detroit Yeah. [laughter]
Speaker B
I would not call this techno. This is this is trance more than anything like German like 90s you know kind of trance techno, you know?
Speaker C
But I'm curious because when you play a techno techno set where you is it separate from is it is it kind of like promoted as that or how much can you actually experiment in a set and do you feel it it goes over well yeah do you feel
Speaker C
by your fans
Speaker D
Yeah exactly. to play a certain sound?
Speaker E
And what does experimenting sound like? I had a really good conversation with Adam Beyer about this because he said 10 years ago it would never be possible to go back to back together.
Speaker E
No way.
Speaker F
So the times have changed since COVID thank god. And I went to Awakenings quite a few times cuz my neighbor funnily enough is Natasha van Boer. She's the sister of Rocco van Boer and he's the founder of Awakenings. And so and I was such a fan so I put on a cap
Speaker F
and and with sunglasses and I went backstage saw Gert van Veen Quazar and all those guys and stood in the corner there being all starstruck and went to Adam Beyer to see his set and now I was talking to him. So I was a sounds funny
Speaker F
maybe, but it was a bit starstruck. So we were in Miami preparing for at round Ultra cuz he was there and we hired a studio and we prepared for our sets at Coachella and it was really funny the conversation we had cuz it seems we have
Speaker F
exact he was at Jeff Mills' show in Miami like in 2002 when he was there with his 909 and his two decks and we were all like drooling like cuz he's the he's the king, you know.
Speaker A
that. And I had the same thing and he had you know, he bought the he bought the promo copy of Star Dancer back in the day and he was like Star Dancer, that was the track and it's really funny how techno and trance sort of have the same origin.
Speaker A
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B
They come from the same place, you know, come from you know, Detroit and all those guys that were you know, X-102.
Speaker B
of Detroit tracks, especially the melodies and everything. It's like it was very melodic music, you know. Yeah.
Speaker B
Underground Resistance that we
Speaker C
Yeah, exactly. That's what we used to And it's also quite fast as well.
Speaker D
Yeah. Yeah. But it was basically just a 909 and and you know, some some some really pounding bass, so I find it really I you know, let's not get caught into the discussion of what is techno, what is trance. I think
Speaker D
ultimately it's just it's just about the gut feeling.
Speaker E
no genres the genre. Exactly.
Speaker F
And Bill and I are also big big progressive fans.
Speaker A
I came from a I mean, I was We we have this thing sometimes we play something we'll we'll put like our finger up we're like
Speaker B
progressive? I I [laughter] was introduced I came into the scene in '98 through like Paul Van Dyk, Paul Oakenfold and in New York Twilo and being introduced to Paul Van Dyk had a residency, so Binary Finary [clears throat] and like
Speaker B
just being part of that and also Kyau & Albert, trance was big in in in New York and then it kind of went into like progressive Sasha & Digweed and then yeah, Built to Heavy and exactly.
Speaker C
Mike Bindra and my long time manager. He was my manager in the early 2000s.
Speaker D
Mike and Laura made events. They're in Punta Cana now. I see I see them sometimes in the summer.
Speaker D
Yeah, they're hanging out there, right?
Speaker E
yeah, they come over to the island sometimes cuz they're just the next island over.
Speaker E
They've they've they are so they've been so important to me for my career. The fact that Mike put
Speaker F
Made events was was huge for you. Huge.
Speaker A
I played at Roxy and stuff like that doing these long sets and all on vinyl and it was Yeah, those were the days.
Speaker B
Yeah. So it's kind of funny we're talking about licensing some stuff. But, you guys actually as Armada the the whole brand are actually buying some of the most catalogs. So, you know, I like sometimes I see some of the promo stuff
Speaker B
and I was saying I was like, "You You got everything now." [laughter]
Speaker C
You know? King Street, yeah.
Speaker D
You bought King Street? Yep.
Speaker E
Yeah. That's crazy.
Speaker F
Cuz we were fans. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker A
could cuz we had the the Pinnacle Bank thing which is in the press everywhere, but uh You had like a a hedge fund thing?
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
Okay, that's cool. Well, this is more Michael, our CEO, that that that did did everything. So, I don't want to take too much credit of that, but um Cuz you are you said as well, you're a lawyer.
Speaker B
I'm a lawyer, but don't ask me to defend your case. I did my I got my I did my exam in 2002. I actually worked in a law firm for about 6 months when I was already DJing. That's kind of a a thing cuz I actually
Speaker B
wanted to be a doctor like my dad, but in Holland they only allow 1,500 students every year. So, they have a this lottery.
Speaker B
And I was not allowed. I had lottery number 4,070. But, I'm famous. Yeah. [laughter]
Speaker C
Not at the time. So, my dad's I asked my I went to my dad. I said, "Well, I can't I can't study medicine not this year. So, what shall I do?" And he said, "Well, do law cuz at least you you know." I didn't really enjoy it until the end cuz then I
Speaker C
specialized in copyright law which came in handy. Um but, I really didn't enjoy studying so much. I was all so deep in the music as well, but I got kind of this unwritten rule with my parents. They never They hated dance music which was the point why I loved it cuz you know,
Speaker C
you're not supposed to do what your parents like. But, they were like sort of okay, do this dance music thing.
Speaker C
And they never said it, but I knew it was kind of like but finish your degree. And and actually I'm really thankful for that because because I finished my law degree, I never had the pressure of having to pay
Speaker C
rent. So, I was like, "I'm going to do this trance thing for whatever it is for a year and then probably be working at a law firm or something." And that I'm still in that year.
Speaker D
Yeah, I'm still I'm still in that still in the gap year.
Speaker E
[laughter] Still in the gap year, yeah. That's funny. I had a kind of similar situation. I went to school for art school and my parents were like, "The DJ thing maybe is not going to be a thing." And I was like, "I think it's going to
Speaker E
be a thing."
Speaker F
the parents always think it's a phase. Like, let them do it and then you'll get a real job.
Speaker F
fans, you
Speaker A
Well, let's let's face it. Let's go to our 1998 selves. Would you Would you If you could talk to your 98 self, would you say like you could be able to make a living out of it?
Speaker A
at all. No, not at all. Back then it was I mean, I remember listening to like Alice DJ and like
Speaker B
Yeah, I was listening to punk in New York and then going into dance music. But now I think this generation come into it with a very business-minded approach to DJing, which back then just didn't exist. You didn't You I would never I'm a kid from Long Island. I
Speaker B
would never have imagined I would be able to travel around the world and I remember my parents when I first started traveling were like, "They don't have DJs in Italy? Like why are they flying you?" You know, like I'm like,
Speaker B
"They do actually, but I guess I'm good at what I do." So it it never really dawned on me at that time. And now it's even more. People are getting into it strictly from more of a business standpoint and I
Speaker B
don't know if that's good or bad, but
Speaker C
Holland actually, I've always said that the Dutch are the kings of dance music. Like in terms of the business of dance music and production, if you look at even just exposure from radio between I think Holland and England.
Speaker C
I think they're king of festivals. But I think that of everything. If Holland was a sports team, who's got more pennants?
Speaker C
[laughter]
Speaker D
You guys are like You guys are like the [ __ ] Yankees.
Speaker E
I have I have I have I have a theory about this. I have a theory about You know, have you ever heard of the VOC?
Speaker F
No, what's this? Uh it's the Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie. It was the uh The So the Dutch they're they're traders, right? We're We're good at trade.
Speaker F
Slaves.
Speaker A
So we Yeah, exactly. [laughter] It's a very dark thing as well.
Speaker B
We're in America. Let's not that. We're in America. [laughter] Yes. So, the Dutch used to get spices from from Indonesia, India, and stuff and used to sail back. So, we were Amsterdam was like kind of the center of the world for a little bit in 16th, 17th century. And the the Dutch
Speaker B
have always been a very good business people. Very cuz trade is one of our most important things.
Speaker C
Yes, but we take we we've stolen the trance thing from Germany and Belgium. Let's face it. Bonzai, German spoon, Paul van Dyk, Mike van Dyk, all those people they were the originators of Sven. Sven.
Speaker D
Sven. Absolutely.
Speaker E
All right. Absolutely. He was one of the founders of everything. Well, techno and trance, I don't know, but And the Dutch people kind of got away with it. We we monopolized the business side of it. And it's not only the DJs, it's you know,
Speaker E
thanks to people like ID&T, Don Diablo, and stuff. as well. But that's what I'm saying, it's like the business side you guys really even most like 80, 90% of the tech like who supplies all the lights, all the DJ setups, all that stuff. It all comes from Holland. Even in Germany
Speaker E
like they like at Time Warp they're like, "Yeah, this shit's from Holland."
Speaker F
That's great. If you if I play in Chile or in Australia or in Indonesia, all I hear backstage is Dutch.
Speaker F
[laughter]
Speaker A
It's crazy. You're like, "Hey, you got a cheese sandwich?" Yeah, but I think we just we just we just understood the business side of it, but we're not we weren't the originators, I think. The originators are coming from from Detroit and Chicago and and that way.
Speaker A
the worst at business.
Speaker B
And uh Well, [laughter] I guess you guys didn't
Speaker C
No, I guess people in in Detroit and Chicago didn't know how revolutionary it was what was just happening in the it was a lot of cuz it's a lot of kids from disenfranchised backgrounds who were just doing the music and didn't really understand that there
Speaker C
could be a business around it. Like even as an American coming over to Europe in the early 2000s from Detroit, I didn't even realize it was like a [ __ ] business till I came to Europe and I was like cuz we had underground raves. I
Speaker C
wasn't really going to New York the [music] thing in American dance scene in the early 2000s was was at a lull.
Speaker D
Yeah, but we were looking at like we were looking at you guys or we were like when the imports came in on Thursday. I remember those boxes arriving.
Speaker E
The Thursday import. It was global. Oh my god, the box went open and we were drooling over what would come out of those boxes and we couldn't wait to like oh my god, this is a new Underground Resistance release.
Speaker F
Yeah, the music was always from us, but the business
Speaker A
But the business I remember Sven actually in Ibiza early 2000s I was playing. I had played Circle Loco and and I played underground at the time and I remember I had a party called Robots in New York and we were we kind of had hit the
Speaker A
ceiling and I remember Sven took me aside and he was like, "If you want to take your career to the next the step, the only thing the only logical thing is to move to Europe. You have to move to Berlin at the time." which was obviously
Speaker A
great advice.
Speaker B
Berlin is still the capital of Sure. And it was just because America only you could only go so far in America and that's
Speaker C
That's why you left you left a year before me.
Speaker D
Yeah, I left right after university. Yeah.
Speaker E
Yeah, I was out. Wow.
Speaker F
I was 21 I think. And I know so many Dutch people that moved to either Nashville now or LA to to set up camp. Yeah.
Speaker A
What's happening in Nashville? Uh production, songwriting. That's where a lot of Dutch Dutch people leave to the US.
Speaker B
Yeah, cuz we we look at America like uh you need to be there for your next big thing, you know.
Speaker B
Yeah, but if you want to get if you're into songwriting at a professional level, being in Nashville, you know, in the in the business and the real economics of how the music industry works cuz you know, we can maybe go into
Speaker B
this cuz I think you probably have the most knowledge is the difference from the DJ industry and the music industry. And I think that's kind of really um a really cool topic for young people to understand that they're really two
Speaker B
different kind of two different worlds, right? they're opposites.
Speaker C
Yeah. I think the music industry is well, it was actually set up by the mafia. That makes you think, right?
Speaker D
Yeah. The mafia people were the first ones to sell vinyl and and and make a business out of it. The music industry can be very black and white. You know, you're either successful depends on sales, streams, uh how well you do, how well you perform, you know, uh how many Instagram
Speaker D
followers do you have, how much members do you have on YouTube. is it?
Speaker E
Yeah, and uh you're only as big as your last hit. Whether the DJ culture is, I think, almost the opposite of that. It's more like connecting to your fan base. And I think one of the things I did
Speaker E
that I probably that I'm proud of what I did is I build a community around State of Trance.
Speaker F
It's like a global brand, right? Well, trance has been a dirty word for a long time cuz it was considered cheesy, it was considered underground, and in all fairness, [music] it was in in a bit, you know, some of the trance is very fluffy and
Speaker F
the 3-minute breakdowns are a little bit much if you hear that the whole like stop-and-go, you know? And I even I had a had a bit of a thing [music] against it cuz that for me is not really trance. It became very formulaic. And because it
Speaker F
was melodic, it was considered cheesy by a lot of people, which I completely understand. And and in a way I promoted that as well a little bit. But I think that's not the reason why I fell in love with trance. I fell in love with trance
Speaker F
because of the, you know, what's FSOE and IQ Records and Hard House and Hard Floor and Cherry Spoon and and and Bonzai Records and [music]
Speaker A
That is that real kind of middle ground Venn diagram between techno and trance. Like that Hard House stuff, all that cuz I play a lot of those records.
Speaker A
Exactly.
Speaker B
It was melodic, but not in a fluffy way. And not real breakdowns, just like driving, you know? It's kind of go as in that way, you know?
Speaker C
I think people that go to trance parties and are looking for that euphoria. They're looking for, you know, to be taken somewhere else by the euphoria of the melodies and the power of the beats and and stuff like that. So, to answer your question, back
Speaker C
to what's the difference between the music industry and then DJ culture, it's, you know, I've lost a lot of love from the mainstream music industry because after this is what it feels like, you know, where's your next hit? I've had a few moderate hits after that with
Speaker C
another you and sunny days and it did well and I had some Billboard dance chart number ones and it it's great. It's but that that that's not where your loyal fans are. I think your loyal fans are the fans that follow you that you
Speaker C
know, have you ever read that article online called 1,000 fans? Yeah, you could with 1,000 fans, 1,000 core fans, you can do anything.
Speaker C
Yes.
Speaker D
Dixon is a really big has been really big on that with uh Intervisions and his whole career. It's like if you get 1,000 core fans who can buy who who'll buy anything, you can have a career forever, right? That's kind of how it works, right?
Speaker D
And I pride myself in that. That I mean, no matter what I've done, there's this group of fans that that that love what I do.
Speaker D
Die hard.
Speaker E
And they follow me around and that, you know, what no matter where I choose. Tattoos, yeah, or everything. Well, I do this radio show now and it kind of it's we do it live now on YouTube as well
Speaker E
every week. And every week we invite 40 fans to the studio and I thought that would be a thing, but people come from literally all over the world, Australia, and they make it a thing. It's only 1 hour recording. It's like And we
Speaker E
sometimes record it on Tuesday morning, sometimes when sometimes it's live, but we just record and I say, "Okay, guys, welcome." I press start and then for 1 hour I do the show and then we're done. Thank you. And then I take pictures and
Speaker E
autographs after, but these fans they love what we do cuz it they see it's real and they
Speaker F
Yeah, it's honest and and they love being there and being part of of what we do and yeah, I I I enjoyed that so much.
Speaker F
I think I even enjoy that more than playing I mean, this summer I played some festivals. I told my tour manager, I'm like I was so far away from the barrier line, the first line where my real fans are and if it was dark in the
Speaker F
room, I couldn't even see the first line of fans. I mean, what's the point of standing here?
Speaker A
I mean, yeah, it's like I could just press play and walk off the stage.
Speaker B
Exactly. And it kind of upset me cuz, you know, the reason why we did this was to connect, right? And and what I was looking for I was I'm still very much a nerd, but back in the day
Speaker B
I think we all are.
Speaker C
I'm a nerd and I wanted to connect and of course part of me is is is loving dance music and loving electronics and I've always been into computers and and and and that kind of stuff. Other part of me and I just going to be very very honest here. It's not pretty, but it's I
Speaker C
wanted to be seen.
Speaker D
Sure. I think every DJ has a bit of narcissism disorder or kind of a mental mania.
Speaker D
Well, I never had girls staring at me. I was in love with every girl in my class.
Speaker D
Yes.
Speaker E
So awkward and then I had pimples all over and I had a ponytail. I was you know, I was trying to find my identity and I was in love with every single girl in my classroom. [music] Every single one. If they're watching
Speaker E
this, yes, I was in love with you, too.
Speaker F
[laughter] But
Speaker A
You should have chosen more wisely. You know?
Speaker B
Exactly. And that's the funny one. It's like, oh, who became the star now? [laughter]
Speaker C
And then I started DJing and all of a sudden I was noticed.
Speaker D
All of a sudden they're looking at you. I said, "Oh, really?"
Speaker E
Yeah. You know? I was
Speaker F
Yeah. suddenly became interested. And I I remember that, you know? So through the reason for me to do this music was not only because I loved it, it was also to make friends. Yeah. I got my best friends are still my best friends
Speaker F
through music.
Speaker A
Yeah, I feel you on that. When we had 1 hour off of school, we quickly drove to the small record store that was in our city and we were checking if there were any white labels that were cool and and stuff like that. So for me it was always about music as
Speaker A
connection, ultimately.
Speaker B
[music] It's so hot out there. It's great we're inside. [music]
Speaker C
And you know what? These really great t-shirts are so comfortable in all this heat.
Speaker C
They're actually really nice and comfortable and soft. I really 100% cotton.
Speaker D
[music] If you want it, we got it. You should buy it. Hand tie-dyed.
Speaker E
We also have pink and blue. [music] Great colors.
Speaker F
Get one. People always wonder how dance music kind of just took over rock and and everything. I always had this theory that I think the thing that made dance music and DJing so so popular was the access.
Speaker F
Like rock stars and rock bands you don't have access anymore.
Speaker A
But but you also never had access like to come to your show radio show and just meet with you and talk you don't have that. When we growing up Prince, Michael Jackson, whatever you do not have access to these these rock stars. DJs now people can come talk to you on the
Speaker A
street
Speaker B
after party the after party hanging out. That adds so much to to to the scene and being there and like you said having a connection with your fans.
Speaker B
is what I try to understand like for people who are not into dance music at all and I'm I'm talking about my uncles, you know, grandmas and stuff.
Speaker B
Big part of the population.
Speaker C
I'm I'm trying to explain to them what electronic music is about and it's about
Speaker D
being together. It's about community.
Speaker E
Yeah. It's about uh and I I think you know, I always try to tell people that yeah, oh it's another festival. I said don't think this is another festival.
Speaker E
These people are creating memories. These are our future CEOs. 100%.
Speaker F
These are our future presidents, our future I don't know. These people will run the country in 20 years and they're now creating memories and now I know because I think you've had the same, right? When you did a set in 2006 at some random club and you think okay,
Speaker F
nobody's going to notice this set anymore. Nobody's going to remember this and then 20 years down the line some person who was at that show in 2006 had the best time of his life and now runs a huge company.
Speaker F
And now runs a huge company.
Speaker A
And wants to book you for It's crazy. That's how it works.
Speaker B
It really does. I mean it's so funny. I I I say like so many people I've met on dance floors and the friendships that I built from this like when we were in Berlin and it was you know, day three Bear Kai and you know, like really out of order
Speaker B
situations. 20 years down the line, they're like running these huge companies and you're like, "Can you believe?" Even we look at each other like, "Can we we have these real jobs now?" And like, manage people and all this stuff where you know, when we were your teens. But I think there is like
Speaker B
Like, I want to touch a few things here cuz the one of the main thing is friendship in the community. The friendships that you said you've built cuz I have a lot of my friendships also have been the course of this whole
Speaker B
career. How much have those friendships and friendship to you meant for the artist and the person that you've become today?
Speaker B
They've been essential. I couldn't have done it without my friends cuz we were having this competition like who made the best mix or who could make the best edits.
Speaker C
That friendly, yeah, exactly. That friendly competition amongst DJs and and other like kind of peers who would Maybe they become sharing presets, sharing tips, sharing especially with uh the days pre-YouTube. You had no idea how to produce. You just, you know, you
Speaker C
bought a sampler and you started connecting it. Oh, hey, you know, Okay, so I can put a kick drum on C and a hi-hat on on on C sharp and then a clap on D, okay, and then how does it work? Does it work, you know? Um
Speaker C
Sonically it fits, you know.
Speaker D
And my friends were also pointing me to other DJs that I didn't know that much and we went to shows together. You know, don't forget. Like, I mean, people know me as a DJ but I'm a fan first and
Speaker D
foremost.
Speaker E
of us are. That's what I love to do.
Speaker F
Yeah, I feel you on that. Before I am a DJ and before I'm an entrepreneur and whatever I am, I'm a fan. I'm a fan of dance music.
Speaker A
the trickle-down. Rave. Yeah. [laughter]
Speaker B
Rave at the top of the pyramid. And I listen and my problem is, I mean, I listen to a lot of different styles as well.
Speaker C
to say actually when I'm when I'm looking at when I uh I'm on Beatport, I check out the charts and stuff and I check out you guys's charts and other like stuff and occasionally I find stuff and I'm like, "This is a [ __ ] bomb."
Speaker D
Yeah. [laughter]
Speaker E
Like Yeah.
Speaker F
I'm like, and then people are like, "Oh, you play so much different stuff." I'm like, "Cuz you have to check out the whole gamut, you know?
Speaker A
Absolutely. Cuz there's no genre that's genre, and you never know, maybe it's a track that's 148, but when you pitch it down to 129, you're going from a shot you know, side trance song to something that's really hypnotic and like cool to play, you know, or even like lower, playing a
Speaker A
really fast song at like 124, it's like this is deep, you know? I always love it when every year there's one or two tracks that no matter if you're tech house, techno, trance,
Speaker B
Yeah, it's like bleed over, right? track that everybody starts. I remember when Fisher had Losing It, that was kind of even the trance guys were playing that. If it's big, then Yeah.
Speaker C
it will resonate with so many DJs, you know, uh Mau
Speaker D
track's a big track. I mean, Mau is a great example. I love Mau. Do you know Mau?
Speaker D
Yeah, yeah, of course. Mau I remember he when he was releasing on my label as Maurice West.
Speaker E
Yeah, yeah, that's cuz he had a couple aliases before he became Mau P.
Speaker F
Yeah, he was looking for his identity, and that's and that's all right, you know, I've had the same, you know, you're looking for who who am I, who do I want to be in this music industry.
Speaker F
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, that that search kind of continues, I think, the whole time cuz it's like even though we define, I mean, we we're very defined characters within the dance music culture, you know, but still trying to I
Speaker F
found even now I I just I've turned 40 last year and having a family and all this stuff, but even as just becoming a really good DJ, I don't think you even really get good until you're in your 40s of like really like
Speaker F
I can look at any situation and be like this now, you know? I I have a question for you, maybe. Um this is something Ben Liebrand told me. He's one of the originators, like um for me, he was the the Jedi master
Speaker F
when
Speaker A
Okay. Was that like at the Roxy or something like that?
Speaker B
No, it was before that. Okay, well.
Speaker C
He had a radio show in '82 called In the Mix. And uh he was one of the first guys to ever mix two records together in the Netherlands, believe it or not. I'm still good friends with him. He's now in his 60s. He lives in Vancouver Island,
Speaker C
and he's been one one my uh you know, all-time I I was a I was a fan and now we're friends.
Speaker D
Friends tour, I like to call it. Yeah, and he he had a DJ before him and he he got off stage and he's like, "Dude, what you played was amazing." And the DJs went, "Really? You thought that was amazing?" And that's what I always have. Like, I look at other DJs and look
Speaker D
how cool they are and I wow. And then I go on stage myself and sometimes I'm really like
Speaker E
Oh, that happens to me, too, sometimes. I don't know if I should play this track or I get like such huge impostor syndrome.
Speaker F
It's like you get that occasional, especially if a guy before you is really killing it like in a cool way, you like go on you're like, "Fuck." Yeah.
Speaker A
[laughter] That's my point.
Speaker B
Yeah, definitely. And I have to be honest with you, every time I walk on stage, I have that anxiety. Like, "Guys, I'm just doing my best, but I don't know if this is going to work."
Speaker C
It's going to work. I think I think I think we all face that that scenario. Like, I think if you go on stage with some complete total confidence, I don't I just don't How do you deal with that?
Speaker C
you How do you deal with that? The biting insecurity of it. No, I I have
Speaker D
[laughter] I am always I I don't know it takes me it takes me
Speaker E
[laughter] 20 minutes to find my footing, get into it, feel the crowd, what's going to work, what's not going to work. And then then it's all autopilot from there. But no, I mean, I think it's good to not drive yourself too crazy, but you're
Speaker E
not coming in too hot. You You have more and the both of you, I think your gigs When was the last time you've had like a sparse crowd and maybe the gig is not going to
Speaker F
crowd a couple weeks ago. Yeah. And sometimes it's work, you know, cuz you're like some gigs it's easy, you go up and you play. And other times you got to really fight for your your feed, you know, you're like, "Jesus."
Speaker A
Can I be honest with you? I have a few shows like that every single year. I call it I call it both feet on the ground gig.
Speaker B
It's good. It's good. You need it. It keeps you honest.
Speaker C
You need You need to set You know, I've recently I've been noticing how a few of these new young up-and-coming DJs, A, they don't know their equipment. They they never spent time with their CDJs to get to know them. They're always using master tempo when that is time
Speaker C
stretching essentially.
Speaker D
Exactly. And B, those guys don't have enough music on their USBs. Like I had this up and coming DJ who said "Hey, the crowd is not in yet. Armin's going to I probably want Armin to start 30 minutes later cuz there's still people
Speaker D
waiting in line. So can you play another half an half an hour?" And the guy went "Another half an hour? I don't know how to do that." [laughter]
Speaker E
Guys, guys, seriously. Any up and coming DJ, do one thing. Fill that USB and make sure you can play longer than your 90 minute set. Seriously, because you're going to get your moment when the DJ after you is sick, can't make it to the stage, and then you have to headline the
Speaker E
show. That's your moment. That's when you have to shine. And if you can have to do a 12 hour set right here, right now, do it. Do it. Cuz that's your moment and people will never forget it. So always be ready for when Armin van
Speaker E
Buuren or Skrillex you know, you know, they can't do the set, and you have to fill in for them, and you got to be ready, be ready, be ready. Listen to this because it's going to happen.
Speaker E
We were talking about DJ etiquette, and I'm curious, and pardon the ignorance, but as in your scene, an opening DJ, what to you is a respectful opening set like
Speaker F
an opening DJ to play good cuz it is their moment, but also like leave some room.
Speaker F
You have to leave room, right?
Speaker A
Leave a little Well, if you're going to play your big tracks as an opening DJ, play them in the first half of your set. And then you don't have to build it all the way down to
Speaker B
Yeah, 20 minutes. Let's bring it down a little bit. Four songs before Just just pay respect. Uh there's a few unwritten rules, I think. Don't play the the tracks of the DJ that's on after you.
Speaker B
That goes without saying, but in China I had that once. They played a bunch of your
Speaker C
They played all my music, and I was like [laughter] "Okay, I can go home." But they they thought that was respectful. yeah, yeah.
Speaker C
Cultural homage. Taking care of the BPM, it doesn't hurt to to to to ask the DJ after you, "Hey, what kind of you what what do you expect?" If you have the the number, you know, just ask like, "Hey, I want to play this."
Speaker C
Yeah, let it go when I get around here. Sometimes for me, I've had a few times where it's like, you know, five, six, seven BPM higher than I play. I'm like And and the other way is is true also. I remember the Nervo sisters playing
Speaker C
before me at Tomorrowland, and I had a big track called On and On, and they played four sets before me, and they they called me and said, "Hey, Armin, uh we want to play On and On. Are you cool with that?" I'm like, "There's four sets
Speaker C
between you guys." So it's so don't don't be uh that's not a that's not an issue. Okay.
Speaker D
And they're sweet girls, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. I loved them. But, you know, if I think I remember the early days of DJing when I played a lot in the UK, and I remember if there would be a good track, like Bullet from a Gun from Planet Perfecto,
Speaker D
or Marco V Simulated, or something that was big, that you would hear that track six times a night. But I actually loved that. I remember playing after Seb Fontaine, or Judge Jules, and they would end with they would end with Somnium
Speaker D
Nation, but I would go nuts, and I'd play it again 45 minutes later, and the crowd would go nuts again. So I and I think we need sets sometimes, I'll like play a song two, three times. If it works, you're
Speaker D
playing like 10, 12 hours, it's like a theme. You can get in there. And by the third time, people are like in it.
Speaker E
I think I think dance music culture needs to have that again. That that there's one track that And definable real hits.
Speaker F
Yeah, that that everybody wants to play because it's such a huge track. And now I think this is what's lacking in DJ culture right now. We're all so stuck in our own productions, our own label, our own sound, and we're not playing anything, you know, we're more artists
Speaker F
now than DJs. And I come from the time where I was it was actually all about DJing. So
Speaker A
more camaraderie as well, you know. Exactly. Yeah. So don't be afraid if there's a big track in lanes now, you know, and it's like having these conversations like this, like us crossing over and talking. Like I'm having a great time. I was like I'm
Speaker A
like, "Oh, Armin is [ __ ] cool. This is a great conversation." You know, this is god knows what.
Speaker B
It's funny how how we run into the same stuff.
Speaker C
Yeah, yeah, it's the same thing, you know? And it's like we think we're all ultimately very different, but it's actually the same. We're just normal people who love music.
Speaker C
Exactly.
Speaker D
just trying to give it away. And very lucky people to be sitting here. fortunate.
Speaker E
So like I want to ask you something. So you've been now with this kind of techno thing, you know, cuz you played with Adam, you know? Is this like kind of a new avenue for you or is it just
Speaker E
Yeah, for sure. Um I guess I feel less I used to be stuck a little bit in my trance world, I guess, you know? I was There was a moment where I was reading all the forums. This is pre-Facebook and
Speaker E
pre-Twitter, but
Speaker F
So you you you read stuff about yourself?
Speaker A
I used to do that. I can't do that. That's That's where the darkness came from.
Speaker A
I used to read and I would say to telling an interview, "No, I'm not reading it." But I was secretly reading it.
Speaker A
[laughter]
Speaker B
And there would be 98 positive comments and two really bad ones and I'd be upset.
Speaker B
I don't even watch the podcast.
Speaker C
[laughter] Okay, there you go.
Speaker D
I can't stand it. Like I can't stand myself.
Speaker E
I feel like, you know, really my motto is don't be a prisoner of your own style. As much as I love trance, I feel it it became too formulaic.
Speaker F
Don't be a prisoner of your own style. Exactly. That's That's a big big big quote there.
Speaker F
I but I think it's important to realize that that if you if you're it's like you said, it doesn't hurt to look a little bit outside your safe border. And it can be refreshing. And I found I was really surprised because Adam Beyer, we all
Speaker F
know he's he's one of the originals.
Speaker A
Adam's a titan. He's he's a titan. He's he's the godfather, maybe. He is a giant as well.
Speaker B
And the fact that he [laughter] was open to play with me and I was really funny curating that set that we played at Coachella cuz I was really afraid that he was going to be like, "Oh, no, this
Speaker B
is pure drum code. This needs to be pure like" And he but he was really open-minded. I mean, yes, he had some strict boundaries. There was no There's not going to be any happy vocals. There's not going to be any big drops.
Speaker B
It's It's going to be more aimed towards tech, but I learned so much. And I I had the opportunity to sit next to a titan and look in his brain and see like how he curates drum code and how he thinks. It's never the way I would think and I
Speaker B
would never deviate from my path. I mean, I'm not saying here I'm going to leave trance by any means. I love trance. I am trance and I'm proud of it and I'm carrying that flag. But if I think it doesn't hurt to open your mind
Speaker B
to what's happening in the world. I think it's also a testament to culture in general and in the world in general. We've all become so fixed on oh, I'm not sure if I'm talking to that person or not talking to that person cuz he is
Speaker B
what I have whatever Republican or Democrat or whatever. I think we need to open up to each other. I think the the reason why God put us on this planet.
Speaker B
I'm not religious, but I do believe in a higher power. But I think the reason why God, whatever he may be, put us on this planet is because we are all different.
Speaker B
We are supposed to be different and we need to embrace our differences. We need to embrace the fact that I'm trance and you know, I'm [ __ ] whatever the [ __ ] I am.
Speaker C
Exactly. You know [laughter] what I mean? But I think if we were if we were all the same we would not be sitting here together you know, under the same thing and be like this is great. How would we ever find a guy like Einstein?
Speaker D
[clears throat] You know, he he was thinking different and he gave us all this beautiful theories. And I think this is we need to embrace our differences rather than hating on each other because we are different. And that's the biggest lesson
Speaker D
I've learned in the DJ culture that you need to find who you really are, who you want to be and and tell that and don't be afraid to show that you're different than the artist that's before you or after you.
Speaker D
Even in your own genre.
Speaker E
Even in your own genre. I've accepted that I'm Armin van Buuren and I'll give I give piano concerts now, believe it or not. No drops, no beats. I sit behind a piano with an orchestra and I do piano
Speaker E
shows. That's bizarre. It's the most fulfilling.
Speaker F
That's the most [laughter] fulfilling, but it's that's that's I guess that's what I'm supposed to do.
Speaker F
I don't know I don't feel comfortable doing it. I have huge anxiety doing it, but that's my path And I As you shouldn't care too much about what other people think if that's your path. If that's your passion, this is what I try
Speaker F
to teach my kids as well. Like walk your own path. Look, at the end of the day, all of us are here because we did something different than who we were around with like growing up try to do something
Speaker F
different.
Speaker A
you're saying, too, follow your guns. Yeah. It's It's good to look at your examples. If you're you know, if you're a fan of somebody, you know, learn from that guy. Fantastic, but don't copy. I mean, don't be another Armin van Buuren.
Speaker B
And also being open-minded. I I know for a long time when I was coming up, I was player hater number one. You know, I would be like, this is some [ __ ] Like at Tomorrowland.
Speaker B
vocal about it.
Speaker C
vocal. I was That was when I was like really big noise like uh And then, you know, I realized I was like, Seth, we're all under the same umbrella.
Speaker C
and it's true.
Speaker D
You you just You're a nice guy to everyone else. Just be a nice guy. You know, I think Detroit coming from Detroit we are player haters. That is like Detroit was [ __ ] your hot tub, your couch. That [ __ ]
Speaker D
needs to be like And also like it's just like I think I also a cultural thing having being this home of techno. Like it's very much like this Bauhaus square of in exactly what a sound is, you know, and they're very protective of that kind
Speaker D
of identity. So, coming from that school, you get into this thought mode of like, you know, a like really dark like kind of like this is it like it can't vary out side of that. And when I was coming up, they kind of even made me
Speaker D
make a choice cuz I wasn't into like Rich and all these guys. They're like, are you going to be in this part of like black Detroit techno lineage or you going to do the other thing? And I was like, yo, the hot girls
Speaker D
are over here. I [laughter] was like, I'm hanging out with you you old fools. And I was like, I'm trying to get some [ __ ]
Speaker E
[laughter] You know, I was like, I'm moving to Germany and hanging out, you know? Like And that was like a thing for a long time. It took me a long time for them to kind of put me back in the back in the the group, you
Speaker E
know, of being like accepted by a lot of those old guys. But through that I kind of also realized that this is an open umbrella. And if we want our culture and society to look at this as a really welcoming culture, then we should
Speaker E
welcome everyone, you know? And that's I think you made a really great point of us looking at that as a whole and who we're often trying to become. Cuz we have to be the people, especially at the top of who we are, to show the way of
Speaker E
being like, "Hey guys, It was difficult for me. I mean, I think it's difficult for all of us. I still have anxiety sitting here. I mean, You know, honestly, I just feel like I'm a lost You think I was going to like
Speaker E
roast you? No, you can if you want, but I I can now sit on my own ground and be like, "I'm going to be okay, you know?" I don't drink anymore before I go on stage, so and I still have anxiety, so what I tell myself before I go on stage,
Speaker E
I do a breathing exercise. I always tell myself my therapist learned me. She said, "What's the worst thing that can happen right now?" I said, "Well, the worst thing that can happen is power outage, maybe somebody throwing at things at you." I think I've had all the objects
Speaker E
that you can buy at a at a at a Walmart thrown at me I've been hit I've been hit in the head with glass thrown at me, [clears throat] I've had knives thrown at me. I've had I've had
Speaker E
uh through through thrown at me, underwear, [laughter] underwear, underwear words, underwear bras thrown at me, phones, your brand new iPhone. Oh, they hurt, by the way.
Speaker E
Uh so I've had everything thrown at me, but you that's the worst thing that can happen. I mean, you you're not going to get killed being on stage. And even if you play the worst set and the crowd falls flat, you're going to be waking up the next morning
Speaker E
and your life continues. And you got to laugh at it when if it does happen, you know? I've had I've had shows like that. Yeah, for sure it happens. I think we've all had that feeling where it was Yeah, it was good, but not that that great.
Speaker E
Oh, I've had some that have been like I mean, two or three that haven't been really like, wow, I cleared this [ __ ] [laughter] And it's funny cuz you're re-shaping you're like this one and they're just like
Speaker F
Nothing's working. Yeah, but then you then usually at the end of the day you hear that the air conditioning on a dance floor was so it was so freezing.
Speaker F
definitely me.
Speaker A
Oh, was [laughter] it Okay, it was you. Okay.
Speaker B
Yo, and it was this giant like [ __ ] um like, you know, like a
Speaker C
airplane hangar. Yeah, 7, 8,000 people. Yo, I have never seen so many people leave.
Speaker C
Oh, wow. [laughter]
Speaker D
So few records. Like it was like two records. 8,000 people left. And they they took us off the stage early.
Speaker E
Yeah. It was like that like in the cartoons, you know, when like They take the hook dog.
Speaker F
[laughter] But it's still it's still I'm more to say that I I it would take character to just stay there and stick to your own sound.
Speaker F
We kept trying to play bigger and bigger records that were like these are going to work.
Speaker A
No, sometimes it just doesn't work. was just like now I mean I I look at it now it's very funny. I had that happen in China once.
Speaker B
I've I've once played a gig in China, I'll never forget. I played in a city I couldn't even pronounce and it looked like the exact same city today before. And there was it was this VIP And it was yeah, exactly. And I was it was this great club and there were fans
Speaker B
with flags and everything, but there was a VIP table that was right in front of the DJ booth on the same level. So I was spinning. [laughter] Yes, I love to see him.
Speaker C
And these guys were playing backgammon. I'm not lying. [laughter] You know that game? Of course.
Speaker D
playing backgammon. I'm not lying. So they're sitting
Speaker E
I was playing my biggest drop and trying to educate the crowd and come on guys, let's go and it's like that and these guys were just
Speaker F
Like China Maxic smoking cigarettes. And they apparently they paid like there were some really rich guys and they paid like I don't know, $20,000 to just to sit there, but they weren't even looking at me. It was like such a cultural shock.
Speaker F
What a weird moment.
Speaker A
That's a mindfuck. And and China. I love playing there cuz it's I have a lot of Chinese fans and it's sometimes they have some really great shows there, but that was so random.
Speaker B
That's hilarious. They were right in front of my DJ booth.
Speaker C
a distraction. And it was a well-paid show, so I was like, "Okay, yeah." Whatever. Yeah.
Speaker D
[laughter] You'll you'll you'll laugh on the way home to the chips, right? Yeah. Yeah, but in a way that doesn't feel I've never I mean, sometimes I know what I make with a show, but I always tell my management, if there's any way to avoid
Speaker D
knowing if beforehand what I'm going to make, I try to avoid it, because then it it money corrupts the mind and it corrupts my creativity, I find. Because then I start thinking, "Okay, well, this is not such a great
Speaker D
show, so but I'm playing one record, so that has made me this amount divided by this, you know." It money corrupts the mind.
Speaker D
I mean, like I mean, life in general is is is a funny thing, you know, and all the all the experiences that we we have and you get kind of a you can have a warped or big world view, right? At this point in your life, what for you now is
Speaker D
kind of the you have a family, you've done your career, like you said, what is the meaning of life to AVB at this point in your life? What do you What do you look at the whole thing? What is What is your kind of grand kind of view of of
Speaker D
this experience we're all sharing together? What I've learned recently is that it's not about me. I'm I'm just a really really really small part in a big in a bigger plan and it's about other people now. I mean, one of the reasons that I'm so happy to have
Speaker D
kids is that I realized that life is not I'm not the center of the universe. It's about
Speaker E
four, right? [laughter] It's about my wife. It's about looking after other people. It's trying to be there for other people. It's trying to make other people happy, because you know what? Then it comes back to you. The The less I'm busy with my own ego
Speaker E
and I trust me I I know I have an ego, but I'm trying to keep him in check, but the less I'm into my own will and my own focus the the happier I am. I I I feel
Speaker E
great giving. I have a reason to get up in the morning, which is music, which is connecting people. It's trying to you know, spread the message of love and and well, not love as a just as you pure love, but more like connecting people.
Speaker E
Yeah.
Speaker F
Um making a difference in the world just by being there by playing music, by sharing positivity, trying to be a good person in general, you know, saying hi to people. Um recently I started these app groups for DJs. There's 130 DJs ranging from techno, underground, the
Speaker F
hard style, everything. And we're sharing about the darker sides in the DJ industry. We're sharing about you know, how we can help each other and I'm trying to help these guys. I'm trying to help young kids out as well.
Speaker F
as well. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah, I think I think it's important to cuz I think there's a there's a cultural relevance to what we do.
Speaker A
Not not necessarily me, but it just in general. Those experiences, you know, to help others.
Speaker A
How revolutionary is it? Cuz I'm sure you guys remember that when we started this dance music culture, a question that I got every single interview was how long do you think this house music thing will be around?
Speaker A
He asked me this the other day, how long do you think I'll I want to keep doing this?
Speaker B
But right now, I think you can say that it's dance music is going to be here forever.
Speaker B
Forever, sure.
Speaker C
And one of the greatest things that I'm happy about sitting here is that I've experienced it coming up. I've experienced, you know, I was refused to go into the Roxy in Amsterdam. I saw you know, the club thing coming up and now it's this big gigantic thing with
Speaker C
festivals like EDC Las Vegas and electronic music at Coachella and dance music is everywhere now, but it wasn't like that.
Speaker C
It's like being there for Robert Johnson, you know, that when rock was invented with the devil, right? We were there. We were there. We said [laughter] in this the first season, we feel like we experienced the golden age of of
Speaker C
DJing and and nightlife in many ways when we came up. And now it's one of the biggest
Speaker D
But it it did feel temporary. It did feel definitely it did feel for a long cuz my parents were like, oh, you're going to be in this boom boom music for a little bit and then rock is going to
Speaker D
come back and then that's going to be it." Especially in the early 2000s cuz it was dipping a bit, you know? Like globally it wasn't I mean now you look at this multi billion-dollar industry and everywhere in the world on the radio and like I
Speaker D
mean I even pitched myself to look at everything now and it's like this is in [ __ ] credible.
Speaker E
Well, the DJs that are up and coming now are the DJs that grew up in an industry where dance music has been around for a few years.
Speaker F
Exactly. But we saw it coming up and not to say like, "Oh, listen to us so you know But it was proto. Like if I was around like with you know, Carl, all these guys who invented it and they were just playing in small clubs in my local town.
Speaker F
I was like this ain't really a thing. Like this guy invented techno and he's playing for 200 people. It's not a big thing.
Speaker F
[laughter]
Speaker A
When I first came to the US like the best thing I could do was sell 600 tickets and then you did well. Vision in Chicago, let's go. You know? Like 600 people, wow. And then I was happy man. It was flying and then all of a sudden it it throughout 2008,
Speaker A
2009 when when mainstream culture started playing dance music on the radio here in the US
Speaker B
With David Guetta everything. A huge hit, you know?
Speaker C
And it and so all of all of a sudden it was embraced by this massive community. Which is great, but I I like to think that most of dance music is still underground. It's a culture. It's it's it's a niche thing. It's my world. It's my little world and honestly
Speaker C
I'd be happy if it's small.
Speaker D
I was going to say do you play smaller shows?
Speaker E
I love smaller hell yeah. Yeah.
Speaker F
I told my management I don't want to play just the big big arenas. I I have one month, I think 2 years ago where I literally had only those 90-minute sets on main stage and I told my management
Speaker F
I'm going to shoot myself in the foot if I have to [laughter] do another one. Cuz you got you're just playing your big tracks in a row and then thank you very much and you walk off and then there's no point in that.
Speaker F
No creative fulfillment.
Speaker A
3-4 hours because I come from that and again nothing against DJs that pre-mix their sets, but I could never ever do that.
Speaker B
I can't believe it's a thing. that would that would boredom.
Speaker C
the bore them to death. [laughter]
Speaker D
I know DJ's do that cuz they want to sync it up with their visuals and they have another artistic view.
Speaker D
It's like an entertainment show.
Speaker E
Exactly. It's entertainment, but Like even if I play like three shows in a row in the same club in some city Friday, Saturday, Sunday, whatever, I still mix it up. Not necessarily for the crowd, but also for me. I want to enjoy myself.
Speaker E
For your own creative fulfillment, you go crazy if you just play it when like somebody sends me a new version or a new track on a Sunday afternoon when I'm preparing my set. And then [laughter] my crew doesn't know that and I'm updating my my record collection and I
Speaker E
play it and then my manager goes, "What was that track you played?" [laughter] I'm like, "Yeah, baby."
Speaker F
Like you said before actually which was something I really took on when we we just first got here. You're like, "Boy, I'm in it for the love of the game."
Speaker A
Absolutely. was like, "Oh, I see.
Speaker B
[laughter] We're about to have a good interview."
Speaker C
Well, don't you have to And like you do this, you've really kind of shown me like such this open side of you cuz I always saw this perfect, you know, blond Yeah, I always thought you were like this like golden poster boy.
Speaker C
Poster boy, you know.
Speaker D
I was Oh, I I got fooled you there, right?
Speaker E
Totally. [laughter] Like within minutes of coming in and I was like, "This mother I was like, "There's some darkness here." But like it's been an incredible [laughter]
Speaker F
you know, it's been an incredible illuminating and enlightening conversation and I'm so happy
Speaker A
Thank you. to like have had this and you to say yes to come on the show. And I just want to say thank you and like keep keep doing the thing and being in the game, brother.
Speaker B
Thank you. Thanks so much, guys. I think we all bring a much brighter future for everyone.
Speaker B
He used to dance music. He used to spreading the culture. Right?
Speaker C
Like one of those like that [laughter] meme, right? That meme there?
Speaker D
Let's go. Let's go.
Speaker E
Thank you so much, huh? Flighter of Our Friendship is produced by executive producers Nikita Stanley, Jessie [music] Rug, Craig Pedegher, and Zach Tuxler.
Speaker E
I'm also an executive producer, Bill Patrick. Hi. Executive producer director Lee Adams, associate producer Ed Cartwright, executive assistant Annabelle Sherman, production designer set decorator Veronica Gessa aka Moki Baby, assistant set director Dan Smith, director of [music] photography Lucas Strebel, first assistant camera Joey Wasilewski, Joey I
Speaker E
hope I pronounced that right. Second assistant camera Jessie Newman, gaffer Eli Tahan, lightning technician Eric Sickel Rith, production sound [music] mixer Tom Zamuda, unit still photographer Natalie Sonic, editor Tyler Christie, VFX and graphics supervisor Aaron Kulik, music supervisors are Peer Maurer Muskin and Jenna Wilson for Radish Music, sound
Speaker E
design and original composition is by Jasper [music] Van Dyke, additional sound design by Mike Nakastro, our re-recording mixer is Jack [music] Goodman, business affairs Z Manic, additional music courtesy of APM Music, [music] special thanks Dream Tree Studios in
Speaker E
Burbank, California. That's it. There's a lot more [music] people this year and we're out. Yo, is this still on? If you're still listening, you either really like this show or your AirPods are somewhere in a washing machine.
Speaker E
Either way, thanks for sticking around. That was Flirting with Friendship and we're doing this again that week after next on Tuesday and every other Tuesday after that unless the grid collapses or Seth forgets what day it is. Once again,
Speaker E
this was a Strata Sonic production. Yes, somehow this is professional and I'm legally obligated to tell you to follow us on all social media platforms at Flirting with Friendship. Watch the video podcast on YouTube, subscribe, leave a review, rate the show and send it to someone else. Remember, be good to
Speaker E
your friends and if you can't be, well, call us and tell us why. 866-608-BFFS.
Speaker E
Seriously, we have a phone number. I
Topics:Armin van Buurenmental healthDJ industrydepressiontrance musicburnoutimpostor syndromeFlirting with Friendshippodcastaddiction
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