Speaker A
So what version of you has died like who were you when you started and who have you?
Raj Shamani interviews Sam Altman on AI's future, OpenAI, his childhood, decision-making, fears, and global AI optimism gaps between the US and India.
Key Takeaways
- Conviction against consensus can be justified, but leaders should actively seek dissenting voices to avoid yes-men.
- AI optimism varies by region, with fast-growing economies showing greater openness to adoption.
- Altman views building powerful AI as demanding high responsibility and emotional resilience.
- Iterative, input-driven decision-making and following curiosity shape his approach to building companies.
What the video covers
- Altman describes himself as a curious tech enthusiast and dad, and recalls being a nerdy, non-athletic kid who was not part of the cool crowd but had a happy childhood.
- He reflects on how his carefree early life changed into a tightly scheduled one as OpenAI grew, leaving little room for spontaneity.
- Altman recounts launching ChatGPT despite most people thinking it was too early and not good enough, citing it as an example of being convinced when others were not.
- He acknowledges the need for more people who call him delusional, warning that leaders often get surrounded by yes-men.
- He says he feels 'wired' to handle the insanity and pressure of building superintelligence, including lawsuits, departures, and government scrutiny.
- Altman contrasts pessimism about AI in the US with optimism in India, attributing it partly to faster-growing economies with greater demand for products and services, and India being OpenAI's largest market by users.
- He admits that not taking equity in OpenAI was a mistake he made for reasons he thought were right at the time.
- He discusses high stakes and responsibility, believing AI can be a force for good while acknowledging serious risks.
- Altman describes his decision-making: following curiosity, rarely going against all advice, and iterating based on input from smart non-experts.
- The conversation touches on startups, monopolies, Y Combinator lessons, and the hope that AI will help humanity with science, medicine, and energy.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Altman's Early Life
- 02:30Podcast Intro and Self-Description
- 06:40Childhood, Being a Nerd, and Social Feelings
- 12:00Global AI Optimism: US vs India
- 20:00Launching ChatGPT and Conviction vs Delusion
- 30:00Decision-Making, Advice, and Iteration
- 45:00Startups, Monopolies, and Y Combinator Lessons
- 63:20Future of AI, Science, and Humanity
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
Um I was like much more carefree like when we started open I was just like you know I was like I had a very easy life at the time. I had a lot of hobbies and you know now I'm like incredibly
Speaker A
precisely scheduled and I have not gotten to do anything spontaneous in a long time.
Speaker A
Was there any point ever in your life where nobody else was convinced but just you? Launching chatbt was kind of an example of that. Not that people didn't want to launch a chatbot, but most people thought it was too early and not
Speaker A
good enough. When you talk to other people, do they tell you that you're delusional sometimes?
Speaker A
Yes, but I think I should probably get more of that. Why? Well, one way that like a lot of people in roles like mine have had things go wrong is they get surrounded by too many yesmen.
Speaker A
You've gone through like people suing you, people dropping out. there's government like trying to find out so many things about you. Have you changed as a person with all of this now?
Speaker A
There's no way that anyone was going to like get to build super intelligence and not have a crazy life, but I think I'm kind of like wellwired for it. Like I can deal with a lot of insanity whipping
Speaker A
around me. When I talk to somebody in US, they're slightly pessimistic about AI. And when I talk to people in India, they're very optimistic about it.
Speaker A
It's an incredible difference. India is like our biggest market in the world. Why do you think it's the difference?
Speaker A
One thing that countries that are developing faster where the economy is growing faster and there's like more of a need for products and services and are more welcoming of AI than more developed economies. So, I'm sure that's part of
Speaker A
it. Do you think you're still being misunderstood today? This technology is still not very well understood, but I think people at least understand AI is happening worldwide.
Speaker A
This is like certainly the best time I've ever seen to make a new company.
Speaker A
Do you worry about it open? Yeah, of course. What's your biggest worry? We have done something. We will continue to do something that is going to be an extraordinary force in society. I believe it can be a force for good. But
Speaker A
you know it's like very high stakes and we have like a lot of responsibility.
Speaker A
Do you feel that when you're gone you're not there to guide or protect your kids or family? Would you be very comfortable your kids growing up in AI powered world which you're helping create today?
Speaker A
Before we start today's episode, I just have one request. Please subscribe our channel. Me and my team, we work every day and try to bring the most valuable conversation from the world. All we want in return is just one subscribe from
Speaker A
you. on figuring out we try to study how the world's most extraordinary minds think and that's exactly what today's episode is about today's episode with Sam Alman is not about AI is not about technology is about a human being who's
Speaker A
building that technology what are his insecurities what are his fears how does he think as a friend as a father as someone who's trying to build one of the most important things which will shape humanity. How does he notice patterns
Speaker A
and find the nonobvious things to work on to build something incredible in the future? That's what we've tried to understand. I hope by the end of the podcast, you get to extract some lessons from his mind and implement in your life
Speaker A
to make your life better. Watch this episode and let me know in the comments how did you find it. And the styling partner for this episode is Levis. Click on the link in the description to explore their latest collection. Enjoy
Speaker A
the show. Welcome on the shows for Samman. Welcome on Figuring Out. It's an honor.
Speaker A
I really appreciate you doing this. You know, if someone's watching you for the first time and they have no clue who you are and how would you explain them who you are in next 60 seconds? Um, I'm like a
Speaker A
tech fan, like a curious person about the world and a believer that AI is going to be this thing that touches all of our lives, hopefully in mostly super positive ways. Um, I'm a dad. I really love my kids. That's
Speaker A
what I would say. But do you ever think about certain things that this is how you're going to think or say or speak about?
Speaker A
Um, I do just kind of try to naturally talk about what's on my mind, uh, or what I'm interested in.
Speaker A
Okay. And were you like this since you were a kid, always thinking about what interesting to say next?
Speaker A
Cuz I think I was like that as a kid. I think I would just try to like I I think I just always like followed what I was curious about.
Speaker A
And do you as a kid did you ever feel inferior to someone all the time? I mean, I'm sure most kids do. Uh, but I was like, you know, I was like a very nerdy kid. I like wasn't good at sports and I grew up
Speaker A
at a time when like that was the very much the cool thing. Same. Uh, yeah.
Speaker A
I was not good at sports either. And it was like the cool thing. Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah. Um, so yeah, total. I was like not a I was not I was I always had like a lot of friends and I connected well with people, but I was never like a cool kid.
Speaker A
Okay. Did that bother you? Sort of. Um, I mean, it did not like I don't think it bother me like it bothers some people, but yeah, I think all kids like want to be popular and cool and there's like
Speaker A
I think it's like very painful as a kid to not feel like in the inner circle or whatever you said it didn't bother you as it would to some people. What do you mean by that? Well, what what's the distinction? What did
Speaker A
you think about I I've talked to other people who are like ah you know the defining characteristic of my childhood was that I was like a nerd and not cool and I hated that and I was like a nerd and not cool and it like
Speaker A
slightly bothered me but I had my computer and I had like my little core set of friends and I you know like I had a wonderful childhood and I I think I was like very happy. Okay. So, here's
Speaker A
what I want to do. I want to talk more about your brain, like how you think, how you actually make decisions, and what you think about certain things because I think that's really fascinating to me.
Speaker A
Okay. And it's great underexplored. I I think it's really hard to like talk about yourself this way, but I'll try my best.
Speaker A
Yeah. Maybe just the kind of things you because you've said a couple of things in like a lot of your interviews here and there and I don't know why people didn't just go like deep down on that alley. Something I want to do. You know
Speaker A
when I talk to somebody in US a random person they're slightly pessimistic about AI and when I talk to people in India they're very optimistic about it.
Speaker A
It's an incredible difference. Why do you think it's the difference? Um well first of all India is like our biggest market in the world by touch users and growing very quickly and you know there's incredible builder energy of people using it.
Speaker A
Bigger than US. Yeah more just India than the US. Um, and I mean people are just using it in incredible ways to build companies or you know I just heard about some Indian kid that needed to do some fundraising
Speaker A
for his school and had never done fundraising before and like was able to get like the full stack of it done with a set of our tools and it was awesome.
Speaker A
Um, so I think it's like a country that has there's just a lot of adoption. It's growing very quickly. Um but I I do think that the US at least on expressed preference is unusually negative on AI relative to the rest of
Speaker A
the world and India is maybe unusually positive. But why like what do you make out of it?
Speaker A
Why is it why there's difference? Um, one thing that many people have observed is that countries that are developing faster where the economy is growing faster and there's like more of a need for products and services and like you
Speaker A
know there's just huge under supply are more welcoming of AI than more developed economies. So I'm sure that's part of it.
Speaker A
Interesting. And the other thing when I when I read about you right like with I'm and I read about you in US and I read about you in India this sentiment of being pessimistic and optimist it also reflects about you and
Speaker A
that's the most fascinating thing that you're this person who started this most remarkable technological revolution here of our age. you were the first guy. You don't even own equity in your own company. And yet all of a sudden you
Speaker A
became the bad guy. Like how? Why? Um well, I think the US has great skepticism of people in power and in particular of like the just enormous power that the tech industry holds. Um, but you know, I would say like
Speaker A
this is probably a good thing in some ways. It does feel to me like it's gone a little far.
Speaker A
Interesting. What do you think is the biggest misunderstanding about you in the world? Well, I I mean, you touched on one of them, but like the I think not taking not having equity and open eye has been a mistake. I did it for what I thought
Speaker A
were good reasons. I think it's just been hugely confusing to people. I like it's it's kind of like interesting to me, right? is like if a if an artist works super hard on their art project or a sports star like practices super hard
Speaker A
and doesn't make a ton of money from it, no one has like a problem with that.
Speaker A
That's kind of understood and this is like my equivalent of that. But yeah, like it's it's been Why is it misunderstood?
Speaker A
Um what do people not like what do they not get about it? I think it's just very outside of the norm of why people assume that people start companies or, you know, work as business people.
Speaker A
True. It's just weird. And like people don't like weird. People don't like weird. It's weird to me as well.
Speaker A
Yeah. And then you're like, well, what what like why is he really doing it? Is it about, you know? Yeah.
Speaker A
And why you doing it? I think this is the most interesting work and kind of the most important and useful thing I can imagine doing.
Speaker A
It's incredibly interesting. is incredibly exciting to get to do. Like I mean what a quest.
Speaker A
True. But it's it's a rabbit hole we'll just keep going into because I don't understand this at all just like a lot of other people. But I really respect what you do. So thank you.
Speaker A
Okay. One of the things you said um you know it takes like like I I'll read it exactly as it is that you should trade being short-term low status for being long-term high status.
Speaker A
Yeah. which most people seem unwilling to do. Right? So, as long as you're right, being misunderstood by most people is a strength, not weakness. I find it fascinating. But the question is how before the outcome is clear, how do
Speaker A
you know that this is being misunderstood and this not being wrong? Well, I mean, the hard part is you don't really know. You can have like a high degree of conviction. You can have an increasing degree of conviction as you
Speaker A
get more evidence, which I think is the right thing to go for, but you don't know for sure. That's part of the excitement like that you don't know for sure. But when we started when we first started OpenAI,
Speaker A
it was an extremely low status thing to do. Like we knew it'd be valuable if we get it to work, but it almost no one took us seriously. It it was like a okay, AGI, maybe 100 years from now,
Speaker A
maybe never. you're a bunch of like kids and you don't have the polished academics and whatever and very very negative. Um, we had like a reason to make the bet and as we figured more things out, we had a reason
Speaker A
to be more confident, but it's still kind of amazing it all worked. Um, so I think it was like a good expected value bet to take, but it was far far far from certain. But what were the signals that
Speaker A
that was making you very certain that this might work? This something that I want to do.
Speaker A
Yeah. Um I kind of think all of us get like a few a small number of like great insights over our lives that we apply again and again in new ways. And one of them for me was the sort of surprising properties
Speaker A
of scale. I noticed this in companies, countries, cities, individual people's careers, uh lots of pieces of technology that you know networks like Y Combinator, which was the thing I was doing before that when you really scale up something that's working at small
Speaker A
scale, you often see big super linear returns to doing it at bigger scale. Um, and because like anybody else, you know, I'm a pattern matcher whether I mean to do it or not. Uh once we saw that neural networks were working
Speaker A
at all and they were getting better with scale, I was like very interested and I had a strong intuition that we should try to scale them up a lot more. Now this was before we knew how precisely uh
Speaker A
we could predict properties with scale. This was years before we had the scaling laws. But we had we had this observation approximately that if you made a neural network bigger it could do more impressive things and this had first led
Speaker A
to the Alex net result and then many more things after but then these were the signal probably a lot of people must be seeing right what was preventing them to build on it.
Speaker A
I find this one of the most confusing things I have ever observed in my career. why in 2015, 2016 and then even by 2018 to 2021 um why other people were look looking at the same data and not saying this is
Speaker A
crazy like we have to invest much more in this. I it seemed so obvious to me and everybody else in the building. I mean maybe like almost we felt delusional because we're like how can how can anybody not how can people not
Speaker A
see this? I I think there was something about it almost felt too easy. It almost felt too unfathomable.
Speaker A
You know, you'd look at the mistakes that these neural networks were making and you would say there's no way that something so dumb can just fix all of its problems by scaling it up. There's it just it seemed like
Speaker A
all these smart people were saying you have to have symbolic representations or you have to do this or I can give you this very good reason. I remember someone articulating why our approach was never going to work and it sounded so convincing. What was
Speaker A
it? Um it was like it went something like all right what these models are doing is they are learning to predict from what's in their training set what's likely to come next. But that means they're never going to be able to ex
Speaker A
make new knowledge because they can only model what's in their training set. And like that sounds very you know reasonable. Maybe you can show a model a million math problems and it can learn how to do those math problems, but you
Speaker A
didn't show it a new thing that wasn't yet proven because it wasn't yet known and so it wasn't going to be able to do that. And obviously now we know that's ridiculous. But at the time it sounded very compelling. And the thing that it
Speaker A
was missing is that what these models were are learning is not I mean also is but the important thing they're learning is not the these specific math problems but the general purpose ability of reasoning and that that can expand into new things.
Speaker A
So take me to a specific decision when you were doing all of this and other people were telling you that hey this might never work out right. Tell me to one take me to one consequential decision that you took with 50%
Speaker A
certaintity and 50% delusion after we finished training GPT4. This was about like um I think it was August of 2022.
Speaker A
Okay. And we finished it about seven or eight months before we released it to the world. Something like that. But we were we were sitting on it and we were looking at it and we knew it was extraordinary. But I
Speaker A
don't it took us a little while to realize just like the new avenues of research this was going to open up and how quickly the models were likely to improve post GPT4 and that we could do what became the chain of thought work
Speaker A
and the reasoning models. And we then decided we were going to go make a very big bet on compute because we saw that we could continue to scale models and that the value of these models would be really important. But it
Speaker A
was new and the rest of the world wasn't there yet. They hadn't even seen GPT4. They had not internalized what it what we thought it could do. And so we decided we would bet the company on buying up a lot of
Speaker A
compute. And that felt very crazy to people. But we had enough conviction that we were probably right because we were able to use this model and we had internalized the scaling properties.
Speaker A
And what was the other option? You had a much less ambitious bet on compute and a slower rate of scaling.
Speaker A
And do you think if any amount of other information you would have gotten at that point, you would have changed the decision?
Speaker A
I think if the model were even a little bit less smart, you know, if GPT4 had come out at like the GPT3.8 scale, yeah, we would not have had the conviction to do such a big bet.
Speaker A
When you talk to other people, do they tell you that you're delusional sometimes even today?
Speaker A
Um, yes, but I think I should probably get more of that. Why? Uh well, I think one of one way that like a lot of people in roles like mine have had things go wrong is they get surrounded by too many yesmen.
Speaker A
And you really you need the push back. But how do you make sure that today you are not surrounded with yes men?
Speaker A
Um having your old friends around is very helpful. Having people that you've worked with for, you know, 10 plus years is very useful.
Speaker A
Um, and then really cultivating a culture where you reward people for pushing back hard when you're wrong and making that easy to do. I think I think is also important. But it takes like active care. You know, the more times that
Speaker A
you've been right and the more sort of like power in the world you have, I think the harder this is to get.
Speaker A
See, here's here's the confusion as a founder. So when you have like all old friends, really smart people, the mentors that you think about, you have them around you and they're telling you that, hey, this is wrong and you're
Speaker A
thinking in the wrong direction. How do you then convince them or probably just go against them? And how do you know that going against them is the right thing today?
Speaker A
Because I'm sure this happens. The number of times that I do something against everyone else's advice is very small. Like I it happens uh but it's rare and and I I like there are I have met a lot of people not a lot I've met some
Speaker A
people and founders in particular who take the most pride in doing something when everyone else tells them it's wrong. And my own belief is you should only do that very grudgingly. Like if you surround yourself by smart people,
Speaker A
you should mostly listen to them. And if you decide that even though none of them think what you're doing is the right thing to do and you're going to do it anyway, you should like view that as a
Speaker A
expensive unlikely to be right kind of high stakes thing. And you really want to have conviction on that.
Speaker A
And talking about smart people and other founders, what do you think? What stops them?
Speaker A
They're intelligent. clearly intelligent. What stops them to build such extraordinary things like you've done?
Speaker A
Well, I think AI has happened only once. So, I think we got uh lucky or did a good job or whatever on problem selection. Um, but I think a lot of people build extraordinary things. The the number the rate of great
Speaker A
companies being created right now, I have never seen it be so high um worldwide. Uh, I think this is like certainly the best time I've ever seen.
Speaker A
I believe it is probably the best time in history to be able to to build something to to make a new company. Um, to make a new technology, to make a new kind of creative project. Um, we have
Speaker A
just gotten this unbelievable gift and I think it's incredible what people are doing right now. So, I think we're going to see a lot of very extraordinary things companies and otherwise get built. So now that everyone's building company and there are so many things
Speaker A
happening the action is happening some founders watching this right now and is thinking that things that are obvious to me because of AI and technology is not obvious to a lot of people how can that person judge that it's the right thing to do and it's
Speaker A
not being misunderstood um I mean this is kind of what you get paid to do as a founder right like this is where if you are starting the most ambitious company you could start, you'll certainly be misunderstood.
Speaker A
Yeah. Now, there's many other companies that are obviously good ideas and you can still succeed big time at those, but if the ideas are obvious, a lot of other ambitious people are going to start them, too. So in
Speaker A
when we started OpenAI in 2015, I think you could count on one hand the number of AGI labs that were being started that year. I mean, maybe you could count it on much less than one hand. Maybe it was only OpenAI that
Speaker A
year. I'm not sure. Um, and yet there were probably like 10,000 photo sharing companies.
Speaker A
Most people thought starting a photo sharing company was a better idea. Um, but the problem is there were 10,000 others and also Instagram had a big network effect and whatever else. So, so I think picking things that you have
Speaker A
a reason to believe are more valuable than they seem, even if they're unlikely to work. So valuable if they work that like the expected value is good. Um, you have a real advantage when you find something like that. when you understand
Speaker A
a technology or a piece of science or something about the world before other people do, um there's some instinct which I understand to say ah you know there's all these smart people and I don't want them to call me dumb so I you know they don't
Speaker A
get it and they're going to talk me out of it. But I think there's another instinct which I encourage people to cultivate which is if you really understand something and it's not just like wishful thinking um but you can articulate why
Speaker A
it's a good bet you should cherish those moments like that's awesome as a builder that's when you should be the most excited. How do you decide that? How do you find a non-conensus bet?
Speaker A
Uh good question. I I like my own experience of this was this was one thing that just no one ever taught me.
Speaker A
And you know like very little of my experience in school was figuring out what questions to ask. Um you figure to like answer other people's questions and then at some point I think like when you become a PhD student or whatever you get
Speaker A
to start asking more questions and then eventually you do more and more of that.
Speaker A
Um, I I think we should focus much more on teaching people, teaching very young people to figure out what questions to ask and what things are interesting to explore that we don't already know. And I think getting good at that skill was
Speaker A
the best way that I figured out the sort of non-conensus bets to take. Just figuring out how to ask good questions.
Speaker A
Figuring out how to ask good questions. Can you learn that? I think so. Yeah. Uh I mean like all of these things, maybe not everybody is going to have equal aptitude for everything, but I think this is one that
Speaker A
a lot of people seem to be able to learn. You know, there's I forget which which culture, which country has this rule where the kid when when he comes back from school, the mother asked the kid that what's the question that you
Speaker A
asked today? Really? Yeah. Do you know what culture? That's very interesting. You know what culture?
Speaker A
I think it's I think it's Israel or something. Someone in Israel. I'm not sure but there is some culture where mothers just ask the kids they don't ask about the highlight they ask about the what's one question did you ask today
Speaker A
that's cool is that a good habit that we I'm going to start that with my kids I I'll I'll report back in 15 years or something but how do you know that it's not wishful thinking is there a sign is
Speaker A
there some something that you can pin down to and be like okay if these are the signals in the thinking that I'm the way I'm thinking probably this makes sense.
Speaker A
Yeah. Um I mean oneam one thing is can you explain it to a optimistic enthusiastic but kind of mentally disciplined smart friend and can you update them about why it might be a good bet? So, I remember when we were
Speaker A
starting OpenAI, the the default was like strongly skeptical, but I would talk to people and I would say, you know, here's the evidence. Here's what we've seen. Here's why this might work.
Speaker A
Here's why it'd be huge if it worked. Um, and here's why this is an approach that we think has legs and and then, you know, if we can make super intelligence, it was kind of obvious why that would be valuable to
Speaker A
make. Um and and you know, not every time, but enough of the time when we talked to somebody who was like a smart person but a non-expert, they would say, "Okay, that seems you can that updated me. That seems like it's worth um
Speaker A
doing." Now, if we had convinced everybody, it probably would have been too obvious. But if we had not been able to convince anyone at all, I would have been more skeptical.
Speaker A
Interesting. Now, as I'm saying that out loud, I'm thinking of there must be historical examples of where someone was not able to convince anyone and they were still right. So, at some point, you got to just like trust your own
Speaker A
instincts here. Was there any point ever in your life where nobody else was convinced but just you?
Speaker A
I mean, there have been like small decisions where I was like, "Open I was going to do this thing and none of the rest of the leadership team wanted to." Give me an example. Um, launching chatbt was kind of an example
Speaker A
of that. Not that people didn't want to launch a chatbot, but most people thought it was too early and not good enough.
Speaker A
Interesting. And what made you go against all of them and be like, "Hey, let's just launch it the YC ground." I think it was the Yeah, I think it was I think it was the YC experience.
Speaker A
I think so. Like I had really I had spent so long drilling it into founders that if you're not a little embarrassed of your first version, you're waiting too long to launch because what you need is feedback. The another thing that I had
Speaker A
cuz we had this like internal version and this actually a good insight. Um the the retention was terrible of their internal version. um I think it was like you know 5% or something of the first version of Chacht people would use and
Speaker A
keep using. Now there's a bunch of reasons why it was bad data in the first place. We had better models, we had other interfaces. Um but many people would look at that and say you can't launch a product with 5% retention.
Speaker A
That's terrible. And normally that's true. But then you would talk to those 5% of users and some of them like really loved it. And and there's this other YC learning which is the more important thing for an initial
Speaker A
project is a small number of people that really love something, not a lot of people that like it a little bit. And so although the retention numbers of the kind of internal Chachi PT prototype were very low, the people who liked it
Speaker A
really used it a lot and really liked it. And I thought that was a very good sign.
Speaker A
And the first you said two different things, right? The first was being embarrassed. Like it's if you're not embarrassed about your first product, then you're too late, right? Are you okay with being embarrassed even today?
Speaker A
Uh yes, you're okay with being misunderstood and you're okay with being embarrassed. Yeah. I mean, look, I want us to put out great products, but I'm happy for us to put out some early sketches to get feedback and
Speaker A
learn and not all of them will work. But nothing changes with the scale of your company now because enough users trust you for I mean things that we put out to like all of the entire CHBT user base have to
Speaker A
have like a a high threshold and also now that companies I mean this is like getting close to critical infrastructure companies are really reliant on this uh and so for you know for enterprise products we ship there's like a a very
Speaker A
very high bar. Okay. So now things have changed now. But then we can still experiment with other, you know, I think hopefully you'll see us experiment with many new products. Some of which will really delight you and make it into the core
Speaker A
experience and some of which people will look at and say, you know, it seems like cool in theory, but it it doesn't really fit for me.
Speaker A
Interesting. And the other thing is we're talking about being misunderstood. Do you think you're still being misunderstood today?
Speaker A
I think at this point most of the world looks at AI and says okay I believe this thing is going to happen. Now clearly it's not all popular. Um and I think our vision for the world and what we hope
Speaker A
for how people will use this tool this technology um is still not very well understood. Um but I think people at least understand AI is happening.
Speaker A
Okay. Interesting. Let's come back to you trying to do something extraordinary, right? And you taking bets on other people as well. And you're talking about YC, right? There's another quote which is which you have only written is I think you're some I'm
Speaker A
paraphrasing and it's something like your you have like your will to bend reality or your will to bend the world. The percentage of that particular thing is really high. Most people don't even try.
Speaker A
Something like that you said. Do you remember? I remember something like this. Yeah. Like most people don't even try.
Speaker A
I think it's more like bending the reality. You can like you can do it much more than you think or like people can do it much more than they think and most people don't try enough. Something like that.
Speaker A
Yeah. And why do you think people don't take the moonshot? I have like a bunch of theories on this, but many of them boil down to like people want to stay part of the herd and it's like more comfortable to not do
Speaker A
something unusual and maybe fail or maybe look wrong or maybe look dumb. And and there's like a real It's easy to point to the evolutionary biology reasons of why this would be true. like you don't want to get kicked
Speaker A
out of the tribe or whatever. Um, but I think people have like really strong pressures to not to not do that kind of stuff just because of the way society is built.
Speaker A
I mean, even more than that, I think society is built the way it is because of like evolutionary pressure and and I think that's probably in like very deep for most of us.
Speaker A
And what was in it? you. What was there in you which helped you bend this will or the world according to your will?
Speaker A
I I think like a lot of tech people I've always just had, which would be a negative in many other contexts, like a little bit less of whatever that internal pressure to stay on the track and do the same thing as other people.
Speaker A
And I kind of think that's probably like mostly a genetic thing. Just genetic? You don't think there's any other thing that you're building?
Speaker A
Oh, I'm sure there's other things, too. But like I I um you know, you can find like all these studies about how people that are like slightly autistic are like tend to have are more likely to sort of invent new
Speaker A
science or like you know just get obsessed with one idea and work super hard in the lab against all the odds for it.
Speaker A
Yeah. And what was the willbending moment for you? I mean, probably starting open AI. Like, it's hopefully. It's too early to say, but it's uh I I I think that'll probably be the most important thing I ever did.
Speaker A
Do you do you worry about it? About? Yeah. About about opening AI? Yeah, of course.
Speaker A
What's your biggest worry? Um, I mean, we are going to do something that or we have done something. and will continue to do something that is going to be an extraordinary force in society. I I believe it can be a force for good but and I
Speaker A
will be a force for good on net uh great good but you know it's like very high stakes and we have like a lot of responsibility.
Speaker A
True. You know this takes me to the point where you you wrote an essay which was in the beginning about smi. Yeah.
Speaker A
Right. And in after that essay during that May you wrote you wrote to Elon about it and you said something that it would be good if someone else apart from Google started it right.
Speaker A
So you said like the biggest threat for continued human existence the biggest threat is going to be Smi right.
Speaker A
Why do you think that if you started it makes less of a threat? Well, I believe in pluralism. I don't think I don't think like only us having it is good either. Um the there are like I think there are two kind of cartoonish
Speaker A
ways this goes really wrong. Okay. Um, one is that there's like a loss of control to AI and we intentionally or accidentally sort of seed control of the future to systems that are unbelievably more capable than we are and we can't get it
Speaker A
back. Um, and the other is like one person or company or country gets way too powerful relative to everybody else. Um, and I think that's very unstable. I think it's actually be much better for the world for there to be multiple AI
Speaker A
efforts with slightly different approaches that are competing with each other and putting out in different ways.
Speaker A
And you know, we talked earlier about like the dislike of powerful people. I also have this like dislike of two intense power concentration. Um I think that's like not I think that's not what works. So um I'm hopeful we
Speaker A
don't do that. So is that what you were thinking when you started it as well? that someone with all the means in the world should not get this power today.
Speaker A
Well, at least there shouldn't be one. Like you want I think many efforts. Okay. And let's say now there are like too many, right? There are four, five large companies. They have all the capital in the world. They have the
Speaker A
great talent. They have all sorts of technology research. They all are working at it. What's your unfair advantage in this?
Speaker A
Um, I think we have, you know, the most users and the best stack from chips to data centers to models to other things that come around that um to to sort of put an abundant put abundant intelligence into people's
Speaker A
hands. Uh I think we have the best brand and the sort of the values that people who are going to use this technology want. Like we want everybody else to succeed and I think people can feel that from us. We don't want to be like the
Speaker A
one company to rule everybody. This goes back to our founding. No, I was talking about what makes you the Sam.
Speaker A
Oh me personally. What do you think is your super advantage? Uh, well, I've been doing it the longest. I mean, I guess it's not true. I guess Dennis has been doing it longer than me. I I I think I have like a big advantage of
Speaker A
just having had a lot of time to watch this development all the way through and not just for the intuitions about how to run the company, but connections throughout the whole ecosystem. Uh, they really helped there.
Speaker A
Interesting. But you must be doing something right. You said not sure about how to run the company but you're doing something right about the company because when you were fired there were 700 people who threatened to resign.
Speaker A
What do you think you did right as a founder that 700 people like almost the entire company is ready to back you?
Speaker A
Um I don't think it's any like one thing but and I don't think this is I don't think it's even mostly about me. I mean maybe the thing that I I did is I got to like you know pick the leadership team
Speaker A
and sort of set up how we what we run at and how we how we work. But uh I think the thing that we have done most right is we've just built an extraordinary collection of people really motivated by
Speaker A
the same mission um with a very healthy culture for the right combination of being sure and high conviction where we need to be that and being open-minded and exploratory everywhere else. And that that that is a special culture. I I I think like the
Speaker A
someday when the history books get written on OpenAI, the thing that I hope they talk about the most is our rediscovery of the kind of culture that makes a great research lab and how why that had gone missing for so long.
Speaker A
And what can people learn from the culture that you've built here if someone is a young founder who's trying to build something like this? Um, one thing is having very high convictions, extreme clarity on what you are setting out to do. And
Speaker A
even if what you set out to do, maybe even more so if what you set out to do sounds crazy to most people, the fact that you are willing to take that approach um to talk and think that way is very appealing to some set
Speaker A
of people. And so when we started, we said we're going to try to build AGI and this is the direction that we're going to push in to try to get there. But the main thing is that like we have a bet on
Speaker A
AGI and if our initial direction turns out to be wrong, we'll change. There were not many other efforts in the world that were still willing to say they were trying to build AGI. I think even Deep Mind at that point had stopped saying
Speaker A
they were trying to do it. And so although most people thought we were crazy and didn't want to be associated with us, we were effectively able to concentrate all of the really talented people that also believed in this. And
Speaker A
as I've looked at some of the other kind of great science and innovation projects in recent history, many of them have had that in common.
Speaker A
Interesting. So you just pick up like incredibly far-fetched big problem and be very clear about it that you're going at it. That's how you build a great culture company. Maybe far-fetched is not what I would pick, but like pick
Speaker A
pick a problem that is like point at something that some really talented people really want to work on.
Speaker A
Be very clear and focused that that's what you're trying to do and don't hedge. Don't don't kind of like give other people a reason to, you know, don't don't let the fact that you're like some people are going to
Speaker A
call you crazy or stupid or worse try to convince you to not to mince your words. Um, and then and then you can get like a very high conviction set of people together pointed at something really important.
Speaker A
But then you consolidated like you you attracted all this talent in the world, right? And then they started leaving few of them and you call this like AI drama as a Shakespearean. Yeah.
Speaker A
Right. So let's say Mina left, Ilia left, Dario started something else. Elon they all are also building something of their own. They also don't get along like everybody's building their own thing. What is the disagreement about?
Speaker A
You guys were the first ones to start it. Now everybody's building their own thing. Um I I think there is something that happens in many people's brains where they only trust themselves to build this because the stakes feel so high. Interesting.
Speaker A
But it's and is that because of the approach or is just like the or do you feel the concentration of power in someone else's hand? They they worry about that or they worry about the way that someone's going.
Speaker A
I think they go together. Um I think it's somehow like his approach is bad and so I can't let power get concentrated in his hands.
Speaker A
Something like that. It's approach and trust. Yeah. Rather than that. And you've gone through all of that. Have you changed as a person with all of this now? Because you've you're young. You've not that young anymore.
Speaker A
Yeah. But you've gone through like people suing you, you starting something crazy, people dropping out. There's government like to find out so many things about you.
Speaker A
There's no way that anyone was going to like get to build super intelligence and not have a crazy life.
Speaker A
Um, so I'm kind of not that surprised. And I remember, you know, early on I kind of didn't think about it in any serious way when we started OpenAI. Um, but then once it became more clear to me
Speaker A
that it was really going to work, I remember like thinking very clearly like man my life is going to get very crazy and that sucks.
Speaker A
But I think I'm kind of like wellwired for it. Like I can deal with a lot of insanity whipping around me.
Speaker A
Why do you say so? I mean seem that cuz I I like it seems like I can.
Speaker A
And you were sure about it since you were since you started the company? I that I was sure I'd be like okay for dealing with it?
Speaker A
Yeah. No. Um no. Again, when we first started, I somehow like even if I intellectually realized that this would happen if we were really successful, I didn't like emotionally sit with it until later. Do you get nervous usually?
Speaker A
You don't get nervous, right? I was reading somewhere. Um, I mean, I have gotten nervous before, but now stuff has just gotten so crazy. Feel like my activation energy is very high.
Speaker A
But now, do you get nervous at all or no? Yes, it's just rare. Like it's that's a like the threshold for it is high.
Speaker A
Nice. So, tell me it's Tell me more. When do you get nervous and when do you not? It's a good thing. The last time I remember it uh was when we were about to announce the Navier Stokes result.
Speaker A
I was just like this is like such a crazy I mean this is like the real deal.
Speaker A
This is like a you know some of the hardest things that are harder than something that people have been able to do it and AI is now doing and I was just like this feels like a crazy moment and I was I was
Speaker A
definitely nervous about that one. That was probably the last like really kind of like heart pounding thing. And do you do anything to get back to normal? Is there some I used to meditate a lot.
Speaker A
Okay. Um like a couple hours a day for a while and now I don't. But if I if I do get nervous, I can like quickly drop back into it.
Speaker A
Quickly get back like just like this or do you have some ritual or some breath work or something that you do?
Speaker A
Um no. I can just like sit and close my eyes and like get to a meditative state pretty fast still in like minutes or seconds.
Speaker A
A lot of seconds but not notice. Yeah. Nice. Interesting. So what version of you has died with who like who were you when you started and who have you?
Speaker A
Um I was like much more carefree like when we started open. I was just like you know I was like I had a very easy life at the time. I had a lot of hobbies.
Speaker A
You know I was like free on a random Tuesday night for dinner on short notice with my friends probably. Um, and you know, now I'm like incredibly precisely scheduled and I have not gotten to do anything spontaneous in a long time. And
Speaker A
that's very sad. And what was that one moment where you were like, "Okay, now I can't be carefree anymore." Uh, where you got this realization?
Speaker A
People like another version of this is people like ask like, "What do you really miss about like your old life?" And the last time someone asked me that, the thing that I realized I really miss is like going to sit in a coffee shop on a
Speaker A
Saturday afternoon with like a nice big cup of coffee and my laptop and just like watching the world do its thing and like catching up slowly on email, but mostly just scrolling the internet. And I have not gotten to do that in years.
Speaker A
And uh and I don't know why like that was the thing to like really jump out at me as the thing I missed, but I do miss that.
Speaker A
Interesting. And you can't do that anymore? I mean, I could do it, but there would be like, you know, two security guys sitting at the tables next to me and like I would not just be like an anonymous person in the world.
Speaker A
Right. Okay. Coming back to the startup and the people that we were talking about and we missed that YC thread, right? In YC you wrote that you used to ask people how this could become monopoly one day. Why you used to ask
Speaker A
this question? Just startups. Um you I think we would usually say like what is what's the moat going to be or what's the competitive advantage going to be? But these are all worries that mean the same thing which is like how do
Speaker A
you not have all profit margins get competed to zero. But is that an important question to ask to when you when you talk about building a moat in a way that it ends up becoming a monopoly I think
Speaker A
from day one because when you start a startup you don't know. I don't think it's the most important question. No, I I was going to say I think it's like I think it's not as important as other questions that we ask. It's not the f
Speaker A
like the only question. Not even the first few questions. Like I I'd always start with just like what is the product? Why do users need it? How you going to get more users? So it's like an element of strategy, but I don't
Speaker A
think it's like it's it's definitely not the most important one. Okay. But is it an important one after like let's say company gets to a certain amount of scale then?
Speaker A
Yeah. I mean, I think it's some version of the like what is your long-term competitive advantage going to be is an important question. Um, but not like a top it's not the most important question.
Speaker A
It's not. And then if so, you used to meet like thousands of companies, right?
Speaker A
And you have had an incredible investing career as well. So, you chose these companies like Reddit, Stripe, bunch of them.
Speaker A
Can you tell after meeting a founder in like 30 40 minutes that this person will be able to build a company or not?
Speaker A
Not perfectly but yeah I mean I think you can have like a pretty strong intuition.
Speaker A
What is that? Like tell me what what do you see? What do you understand? What pattern do you see?
Speaker A
Uh one of there's like many obvious things that I could say. I'll try to say the ones that I think don't get talked about as much. If they're like a clear communicator and they can really explain things well and it's easy to follow,
Speaker A
this is a huge thing that I look for. um if I leave the meeting like convinced that I want to work with them um that's a huge thing I look for because you know a big part of the job of a of a early
Speaker A
stage founder is to be an evangelist in all these different ways with founder with other founders with customers uh with people they're trying to hire um with investors so that's something that I I look for um you know if if they can
Speaker A
like come up with new ideas quickly and improve on ideas quickly. That's a thing that I look for. Um, you know, if they seem to have like interesting new well-reasoned talk thoughts on the world I haven't heard before, that's a big one. Things like
Speaker A
that. Interesting. But even after all of this, there's one thing that a lot of entrepreneurs talk about is pain, enduring capacity. Can you judge that?
Speaker A
I think that's hard to judge directly in a 30-minute meeting. you can ask people for, and I used to do this sometimes, like stuff in their life history that points that out. Um, but I think it's hard to tell that like internal
Speaker A
conversation. You have to rely on stories they tell. It's just And can you judge someone's lying or tr or is telling you truth when they tell you some story about they've endured certain amount of pain?
Speaker A
This is what I mean. I think this is like hard to Yeah. And what's about you? What's what do you think is in you that what amount of pain you can endure that 99% of the people will not?
Speaker A
I don't think this is like my biggest advantage um relative to some other founders I've seen, but I I am like I am really willing to stick with something I believe in and just keep going.
Speaker A
And who's the other founder that came in your head? I didn't have like a particular Okay, you just said it just like that.
Speaker A
But do you know anyone who has like really good pain enduring capacity and they're like they can just be at it? Um I don't have like one specific name ready to go here but like yeah I was I
Speaker A
was definitely impressed by like many YC founders over the years who would just like grind it out without much signal of success and you know with very little in the way of resources and is there a pattern between all of them Stripe
Speaker A
Reddit apart from them being good communicator um I think there all of these things that are, you know, are traits that many founders share, but there's very few that I would say are absolutes that exist across everybody.
Speaker A
Um, one of the one of the great lessons of YC is how many different ways and how many different kinds of founders can be very successful.
Speaker A
But but what pattern do you see in them? Like because this is just well I I mean again I think there are these things you can say like that you got to be driven and smart and a good
Speaker A
communicator and you have to like have an idea you're really willing to commit yourself to and you have to yeah I think we could make this like long list of founders traits and I think we could like a long list of good
Speaker A
business traits. But one of the interesting observations and I think why sort of existence proof for how many different ways there are to succeed is if you took the top 10 YC companies and said okay all 10 of these people are
Speaker A
great founders clearly all 10 of these are great companies also clearly I'm going to scramble which founder runs which or which CEO runs which company.
Speaker A
it would be a disaster. And I think there's many things that one can take away from that observation, but one of them is that like there's many different ways to be successful as a founder and there's not a single pattern that works in every
Speaker A
case for every company. Is there a way that or a single pattern that can be disaster which is common?
Speaker A
Let's say if there's no formula found there's many things that are a disaster. um lack of drive, lack of focus, lack of clarity, lack of vision, um lack of ability to like solve hard problems repeatedly with a smile on your
Speaker A
face. All of these things are anti-atterns that Yeah. So, uh there are many things that are almost certain to predict failure, but there's al that part is easier.
Speaker A
A lot of ways, different ways to succeed. You said the first thing is lack of drive.
Speaker A
Yeah. And it's it's ambition. a lot of people talk about. Can you train somebody or can you teach somebody to be more ambitious?
Speaker A
Yes, I think you can. This was one of my most uh pleasant surprises of YC. Um, and I think part of like why YC adds much more value to the world than people realize is that there are some
Speaker A
things that maybe you can't train, but you can teach people to become more ambitious. Not everybody. It's hard to predict who you'll be able to, but it can definitely happen. how how do you teach it?
Speaker A
Um I found that the most successful thing was one combination of a peer group going through the same thing and two getting people to go through successive challenges at increasing difficulty and realizing that they can do more than they think do more than
Speaker A
they think better instincts and keep going. And did you become ambitious like this when you were in the same peer group or you were ambitious from before?
Speaker A
No, I think I got much more ambitious. And do you think like the ambition comes from confidence that everyone else around me is ambitious or does it come from insecurity? Um Paul Graham used to say that there was something about like
Speaker A
the pressure of demo day coming up and people not wanting to fail. And I think that's kind of that's a version of insecurity. But I think much more it comes from there's like excitement and there's like a positive force of being around these
Speaker A
people doing these amazing things and you're like well you know we all entered this together and if they can do it so can I for you it's more confidence I think so and I I really I really think
Speaker A
that people if you keep getting slightly bigger slightly bigger slightly bigger challenges and keep excelling at them you you really do build a lot of successive confidence and learning that Interesting.
Speaker A
And is it only the peer circle of the group that makes you like this?
Speaker A
What do you mean? Like is it only that other ambitious people actually give you these things?
Speaker A
No, I think you can get it lots of ways. But you know, I think we are as people like hardwired to learn from the people around us. There was that there's that famous quote which is like you're going
Speaker A
to become the average of your five best friends so you better pick those five people really well.
Speaker A
You believe in it? Not quite, but there's some truth to it obviously. What's the worst advice you've gotten as a founder?
Speaker A
I mean almost all the advice is terrible. I don't know how to pick the worst thing, but I would say I would say the like uh my meta advice to founders is listen to less advice.
Speaker A
Listen to less advice. Listen to less advice. Do you sometimes go home at some point and be like, "Hey, all this advice is maybe right and maybe I'm wrong." I think YC could probably distill five to 10 very important, highly
Speaker A
confident pieces of general advice from all of the incredible wealth of experience. Um, and I think you should listen to those five or 10 things. Uh like I think the slogan of YC or the motto whatever it like makes something
Speaker A
people want is the like that is like the single commandment of startup advice to the degree there is one thing for early stage startups and then there's like another list of things that are almost as important but you're not going to become a great
Speaker A
founder by listening to like the 800th podcast of advice about how to start a startup. You got to just like do it and figure it out on your own. And a lot of the advice that you need is so specific
Speaker A
to your case that beyond the like axiomatic truths, there's not that much more to learn from like a one more podcast.
Speaker A
Interesting. And but you wrote a you wrote an essay, 13 rules to become successful.
Speaker A
Well, I remember that I wrote that. I don't I don't remember what they were.
Speaker A
And I bet I could do a better version now. I bet I could do a shorter version now.
Speaker A
Okay. So, instead of 13, what would be I think this point about compounding the one I had first in there. I think this is probably underestimated.
Speaker A
Uh a a lot of people I think don't drive themselves to continued forward progress. The joke of this is like you know sure you have 20 years of experience but you have 20 times the same one year of experience
Speaker A
and you really the thing that I think is so cool about a career is you can build on each successive phase but you have to continue to push yourself. have to like keep doing uncomfortable, non-obvious new things. And a lot of people fall off
Speaker A
that very early in their careers. And so staying on the compounding exponential curve um is empirically not what most people do. And I think that's a very good not obvious piece of advice.
Speaker A
What's the most uncomfortable thing that you do these days? Uh I mean kind of like most of the stuff now feels new again. the the figuring out how we're going to navigate this current debate about pacing progress feels like a very difficult
Speaker A
thing to get right and pretty important and just yeah hard and new and what do you do to make sure that you you get it right. Is there something that a lot of time thinking and talking to people and trying to get
Speaker A
you know more data and more new ideas into the mix. Do you ever go home sometimes and be like, "Maybe I'm wrong about this." Yeah, of course. And I think it'd be disastrous if I didn't. One one of the
Speaker A
We talk about like conviction and self-belief and all of that. I I think what some people take that to mean is don't introspect. Just like be sure in what you're going to be sure and don't question it. I try to like question
Speaker A
everything all the time. Uh, I still try to like act consistently and with conviction until I find a reason to change my mind. Um, but I think this is really important.
Speaker A
Give me an example. How do you do it? My process often is just to keep thinking about the same question from every different angle, throwing out a bunch of bad ideas, trying to like break them apart or find problems with them in my
Speaker A
own head, then going to other people. Um, taking more input, trying a different version of it out, adapting it again. I think it's like an iterative process like that.
Speaker A
Like give me an example of this. like would you let's say what's your current big problem and then you're just questioning from different angles and I think that one that I just gave the the like this question of how do we
Speaker A
think about the pace of progress as we enter this RSI era and how do we avoid these two ways that things could go wrong either way from a loss of control incident or a concentration of power incident and what
Speaker A
is the right governance mechanism how like how do we think about how smart an AI system should be allowed to be relative to a person. How quickly can that improve? How do we think about the questions around security and monitoring and alignment um
Speaker A
and you know where can we afford to take risks and not and does that change when you're at home? Because when you're at home Yeah.
Speaker A
and you see your kids and you see your family and you see like okay maybe I think from a different lens. I am a big I mean when I'm with my kids I try to just hang out with my kids and be the best dad I
Speaker A
can be and I try not to get myself distracted think about other stuff. Um, but I have noticed a big difference like on the weekend mornings when I'm working at home versus in the office. And I am I
Speaker A
am a real believer for me at least that finding some sort of rhythm where you can like intensely be with people and working very interactively and then have real chunks of time where you can like shut out the world and just like think
Speaker A
and work on your own. That back and forth rhythm is super important to my particular style. You can do that easily or you have to learn hard way.
Speaker A
Yeah, that's just what works for me. It's very natural and easy. Shutting down and shut like just being shutting down. It's just like a very different way of working. Like when I'm working at my office at home, it's like
Speaker A
a very solo style of work. And if I only did that, it would be a disaster. But if I didn't have that and only was like constantly in meetings at the office, that also wouldn't work for me. So I
Speaker A
need that back and forth. Interesting. And when I asked you about the family, I what I meant to is because you said this is the biggest fear that you have that it could go either way. Do you feel that when you're
Speaker A
gone and you're not there to guide or protect your kids or family, would you be very comfortable your kids growing up in the world AI powered world which you're helping create today?
Speaker A
Yeah, I think it I mean as I said earlier there's all these ways it could go wrong and uh so I don't know what the future's going to be look like look like but I am comfortable that I have enormous trust in people to
Speaker A
figure out how to adapt and thrive and make society better for all of us and yeah I think the world will keep will most likely keep getting much better.
Speaker A
Perfect. Well, here here's the last two questions that I ask everybody. What's the most extraordinary thing you want to build next?
Speaker A
Oh, man. Um, the thing that immediately came to mind is I am extremely excited to see how far we can push AI to discover new science. Um, math the math results were quite amazing to me and it really made me think that we
Speaker A
are closer to this milestone than I expected us to be. But a machine that can help us understand the world better, discover, you know, the deepest insights in physics, figure out new medical treatments, uh new source of energy,
Speaker A
things that I think we can't even imagine but that better scientific understanding will enable. Um I am extremely excited for us to go build that that machine. I I have always been struck by how much of the world getting
Speaker A
better is better scientific understanding and the fact that I think we can now really have AI accelerate that is going to be transformative for for humanity and that's something that you want to build.
Speaker A
Yeah. And what's the cost of becoming Sam Alman? Becoming this person who is probably shaping the most important technology of mankind. H it's hard to answer that cuz like subjectively it's just like this is my life now. You know I I
Speaker A
I gave you like the trivia example earlier of I I can't go work in a coffee shop on the weekends. Um, but I feel like so incredibly lucky to get to do all this that although it's like tiring and stressful and, you know, a
Speaker A
lot of people's anxiety gets projected onto me and there's like all of these just sort of like life trade-offs, this is like all I know now. Everything else is this like distant memory of this past thing. So I don't like
Speaker A
I don't have this like real like suffering. Oh, it's so horrible. What's happening to your mindset about it?
Speaker A
Fair. Fair. Well, thank you so much. Thank you very much for having me on.
Speaker A
Thank you. It was really good. I hope we get to do this many more times.
Speaker A
Me too. At some point we'll just deep dive and like do a much longer version of it. But thank you so much for doing this.
Speaker A
Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Hi. How's it going? Good. Hi, I'm Raj. Nice to meet you.
Speaker A
Thank you so much for doing this. Nice to meet you, too. Thank you so much for doing this.
Speaker A
How are you? This is cool. I'm good. You like the setup? I've never seen a setup like this before. I do like the setup. No, I'm good. It's like it's uh it's an extraordinary time in terms of just all
Speaker A
of the model progress. How are you doing? Good. I'm pretty pretty good at this point. Little nervous, but I think I'll get through.
Speaker A
I would love if you would try this. Yeah, of course. You tell it's great.
Speaker A
Tastes good. Oh, perfect. What's What's the most important of the mushrooms? What is it? Lion's mane and Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah. I feel good. You feel good? Yeah. Oh, amazing. That That's We'll send you a lot of options.
Speaker A
Thank you so much for watching this episode till the end. All I want you to do is three things now. Number one, please subscribe. The more you subscribe, the better the guests we will be able to get for you and the more
Speaker A
valuable conversation we'll be able to build. Number two, please comment and tell us what did you like about this episode and what you didn't like about this episode. And who are the kind of guests who you want to see? Please give
Speaker A
us those suggestions in the comments. We read almost all of them. And number three, please share this episode with at least one person whose life will change after listening to one of the lessons from the episodes. I'll see you next
Speaker A
time. Until then, keep figuring out.
Topics:Sam AltmanOpenAIartificial intelligencesuperintelligenceChatGPTRaj ShamaniAI adoption IndiastartupsY Combinatortech leadership
