Speaker A
Yes. Well, looking forward to working with you again this month. Looking forward to it.
Insights from Kenjiro Shio on politics, maturity, and editorial philosophy through his relationship with Shintaro Ishihara.
Key Takeaways
- Politics requires compromise and acceptance of necessary evils to effect real-world change.
- Maturity involves embracing both positive and negative aspects of life and leadership.
- Editorial success depends on strategic planning and maintaining valuable leverage with authors.
- Honesty and authenticity in life and work are more important than technical skills or appearances.
- Transitioning from creative imagination to political reality demands a willingness to get 'hands dirty'.
What the video covers
- Kenjiro Shio discusses the nature of politics as a necessary evil involving lies and survival tactics.
- He reflects on his personal experience with politician and writer Shintaro Ishihara, highlighting Ishihara's honesty and unique transition from novelist to politician.
- The conversation explores the concept of maturity as accepting both good and evil in reality, contrasting it with youthful idealism.
- Shio shares his editorial philosophy, emphasizing the importance of holding 'three cards' when working with authors like Ishihara.
- The discussion includes the challenges of aging and Ishihara's refusal to write about it traditionally, choosing instead to confront it head-on.
- Shio illustrates the harsh realities of politics compared to the imaginative freedom of novel writing.
- The video touches on the dynamics of political power struggles in Japan, specifically between Taro Aso and the Prime Minister.
- There is an emphasis on living honestly and authentically, beyond technical skills or superficial techniques.
- Shio recounts memorable moments and collaborations with Ishihara, including the creation of the bestseller 'Brother'.
- The dialogue also hints at the difficulties in creating successors and the modest financial rewards of book publishing.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Current Political Context
- 02:33Politics as Necessary Evil and Survival
- 05:23Maturity: From Idealism to Reality
- 07:50Editorial Philosophy and 'Three Cards' Strategy
- 10:19Shintaro Ishihara's Literary Challenges
- 12:43Politics vs. Imagination: The Reality of Leadership
- 17:31Honesty, Authenticity, and Life Lessons
- 20:41Reflections on Legacy and Publishing Industry
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
Please do. Anything happened lately? Lately? Nothing major in the news lately. Well, we're recording this on the 16th, which is a Sunday. Yes.
Speaker A
So today is the LDP's, ah, party executive reshuffle. I see. And tomorrow is the cabinet reshuffle.
Speaker A
Right. I have plenty to say about it, though. Yeah. I mean, should I even say it? No, that’s politics in general. There are plenty of things I could say, but...
Speaker A
I think I’ll just hold off for now. What are the main points of contention?
Speaker A
The points of contention? Well, it seems like everyone is staying in their posts. Ah, that.
Speaker A
That’s basically decided by the power struggle and dynamics between Taro Aso and the Prime Minister.
Speaker A
Sounds interesting. It’s all being decided, but if I start on that, there’s no end to it.
Speaker A
So, yeah, it’s better not to say anything. Right. From your perspective, is it a net positive or negative for Japan?
Speaker A
I don’t really know. We have to see the results first. Yeah, no way to tell. I’m trying to keep my opinions to myself.
Speaker A
At what age did you get interested in politics? I was never really interested, to be honest. I mean, through things like ReHacQ, I interact with politicians and even go out for drinks with them, but I don’t understand politics at all.
Speaker A
It’s fine not to understand it. Actually, it’s better not to get involved with politicians. Because all politicians are liars, getting deeply involved will only lead to getting hurt.
Speaker A
Oh. Basically, lies... I’ve been hurt plenty of times. It’s not that only liars become politicians; even normal people in the political world have to lie...
Speaker A
That’s right. To survive, don't they? Exactly. Politics is a world of "necessary evil," after all. They claim it’s for the sake of the greater good — to ensure our well-being. Yeah.
Speaker A
They have to be willing to do "bad" things, even things that might be considered evil, because that’s what it means to be a politician.
Speaker A
Yeah. Right. If you just stick to ideals, the real world won't budge, so all kinds of schemes and maneuvers become necessary.
Speaker A
Yeah. And in that environment, if you honestly try to be truthful, yeah, nothing is ever going to change.
Speaker A
I see. That's why you should basically assume that politicians, yeah, are liars; that’s the conclusion I’ve reached in my life so far. The first politician I ever dealt with was Shintaro Ishihara.
Speaker A
Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. You see, I was 25 and he was the author I was in charge of; Shintaro Ishihara then became a politician for the LDP.
Speaker A
Yeah. I didn't start out dealing with him as a politician. Yeah. Yeah. But my time with Shintaro Ishihara, yeah,
Speaker A
was, for a politician, surprisingly direct. Yeah. And he was an honest politician. So I had a long relationship with Shintaro Ishihara, and I have many good memories. And his time as a politician — the dark parts, too — yes.
Speaker A
I feel like I shared that experience with him as well. I do. That’s why I think Shintaro Ishihara was a special person. He was a novelist originally, and novels are written with imagination, right?
Speaker A
Yes. Politics, on the other hand, is reality. Yeah. Yeah. You dive your hands into it and change things, don't you?
Speaker A
So, there’s a big difference there. But Shintaro Ishihara, the novelist, wasn't satisfied, yeah, with just putting his imagination into his work; he wanted to change reality.
Speaker A
That’s incredible, isn't it? Turning to the world of politics, he steered his career in that direction.
Speaker A
For a writer to become a politician means getting their hands dirty with reality. And reality isn't just about the good, there is plenty of evil, and it is a necessary evil.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Getting your hands dirty with that evil means, in short, that you cannot remain pure.
Speaker A
Yeah. So, to mature, I think it means accepting both the good and the bad.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. That is, a boy, yeah, becoming an adult. Yeah. A son becoming a father.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. A prince becoming a king. Yeah. That, I believe, is what maturity is. Even the evil parts, you have to accept it all and stand tall.
Speaker A
Exactly. When you're a child, a prince, or a young boy, you want this, you want that.
Speaker A
Yeah. You want to make it happen somehow. Yeah. You just head straight toward it.
Speaker A
Yeah. But when a boy becomes a man, when a child becomes a father, yeah,
Speaker A
and when a prince becomes a king, yeah, to gain one thing, you must shed blood and lose another.
Speaker A
Yeah. That's what it comes down to, I think. That's why the world of politics is so harsh.
Speaker A
Because you have to move the real world, not just write works of fiction using your imagination. That's why I told Mr. Ishihara that Shintaro Ishihara the writer had dipped his hands into evil by becoming a politician.
Speaker A
Yeah. I wanted him to write about what those hands that dipped into evil looked like.
Speaker A
Yeah. That's what I kept telling him. I had three cards to play with Mr. Shintaro Ishihara.
Speaker A
One was to have Shintaro Ishihara, who had never written a private novel, yeah, write one with Yujiro Ishihara as the protagonist, yeah,
Speaker A
about that deepest of blood ties: brothers. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted him to write that private novel.
Speaker A
This is a national star, yeah, an Akutagawa Prize winner—or perhaps just before becoming a judge for it.
Speaker A
Well, a preeminent writer in Japan, Shintaro Ishihara, the elder brother, would write it. This, of course, would be interesting and a guaranteed bestseller. And of course, it came to fruition as the work "Brother," yeah,
Speaker A
and it became a million-seller. That was my first card. When Gentosha was first established, in the office building, yeah,
Speaker A
Mr. Shintaro Ishihara called me and said, "I'm coming to the company, yeah, you started." Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
It was only about a month old. Yeah. Still had cardboard boxes around and stuff.
Speaker A
Right, right. Yeah. It was amazing. He came and said, "If I can be of any use to you," "I'll do anything." Right. Yeah. At the time, there were about six employees.
Speaker A
He said, "I'm Ishihara," yeah, "please take care of Ken," and then he turned back around— yeah. Yeah. That's cool.
Speaker A
That's the phrase he gave me. It's like a bra, isn't it? And at that time, as an expresser— yeah — I always believe an editor must hold three cards.
Speaker A
That’s my own philosophy, or ironclad rule, if you will. I always held three cards for Mr. Ishihara. So, I played one of them.
Speaker A
Yeah. "Please write about Yujiro." He told me that he had been thinking— that it was about time to write about Yujiro.
Speaker A
Yeah. "I understand." Yeah. "Since you started a new publishing company, since you became an editor," he said, "I'll write it." That book became the million-seller, "Brother." Now, the second card was that I wanted him to write about "aging."
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Because with "Season of the Sun," he had such a brilliant, yeah, dazzling, debut.
Speaker A
Shintaro Ishihara. Yeah. "Season of the Sun" was a novel that put its faith in the body. That same Shintaro Ishihara grows old and encounters the various sorrows of aging.
Speaker A
Well, hair thins out. Yeah. Skin starts to sag. Yeah. The 250-yard drives in golf—
Speaker A
yeah — they start dropping off.
Speaker A
Yeah. Communication with his children becomes difficult. Yeah. Yeah. Various parts of his body start to ache.
Speaker A
He gets sick more often. He loses physical strength. He faces the sorrow of aging, right?
Speaker A
After having debuted, yeah, yeah, with "Season of the Sun." So, yeah. I wanted him to write about that aging.
Speaker A
"Please write about aging." That was the second card. But in the end, Shintaro Ishihara said— yeah — "I don't have 'aging'."
Speaker A
Yeah. "I'm going to challenge old age head-on."
Speaker A
Well, that wouldn't make for a novel, so actually — to have him write about aging for a national newspaper, yeah,
Speaker A
I had already made a deal with the journalist in charge of novels there. Huh.
Speaker A
I intended to have Mr. Ishihara serialize a novel about aging. Yeah. Yeah. I had already secured the spot.
Speaker A
Yeah. But he said, "I don't have aging." "I'm going to challenge it." Yeah. If he challenges it, it doesn't make for a novel.
Speaker A
Indeed. So, I gave up on turning i
Speaker A
Yeah. He was like the right-hand man—well, that’s a strange way to put it—so, Nakagawa-san...
Speaker A
He was the leader of the Nakagawa faction. Yes. And the successor, or rather... That was...
Speaker A
Yeah. Shintaro Ishihara. Yeah. Shintaro Ishihara was in the position right after Nakagawa in the faction.
Speaker A
And Ichiro Nakagawa, unfortunately, died by suicide. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s how it’s recorded. I mean, it probably was suicide.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Why did Ichiro Nakagawa have to kill himself? Because of the cruelty of politics.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. The destiny of politics. Yeah. Things like that. Yeah. I really wanted to know.
Speaker A
I kept telling him I wanted him to write about it. Yeah. But he said if he didn't write it , he’d take it to the grave.
Speaker A
Oh. That was his stance. I knew he was resolute, so I had no choice but to let it go.
Speaker A
Shintaro Ishihara was the one who attacked Kakuei Tanaka the most. He criticized the money politics.
Speaker A
Yes. But one day, at a golf course called "300." Yes. He ran into Tanaka-san.
Speaker A
Yeah. And they talked. He found himself drawn to Kakuei Tanaka's charm. Yes. He saw Kakuei Tanaka as a person.
Speaker A
Yeah. Once more. Yeah. Ishihara-san tried to understand him through a different approach. I knew well that even though he criticized Kakuei Tanaka, he also found him attractive.
Speaker A
Well, we talked about it daily. So, politics. Yeah. I asked if he could write about politics through Kakuei Tanaka.
Speaker A
Yeah. The destiny and cruelty of politics. And the fascination of it. And then, "Genius." Yeah.
Speaker A
This was also a million-seller. That’s amazing. All three cards were about Kakuei Tanaka. Yeah. Written in the first person of that man.
Speaker A
Yeah. Where did that idea come from? That idea—the first-person perspective. Writing it in the first person was Ishihara-san's idea. That's an amazing concept, isn't it?
Speaker A
It really is. And you know, it had a different title at first. Not "Kyoyasu, " that's not it. "Nogami." Yeah.
Speaker A
It was titled "Nogami." That was the title Ishihara-san gave it. But I told Ishihara-san...
Speaker A
Yeah. "A genius named Shintaro Ishihara is writing about a genius named Kakuei Tanaka." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. " If that's the case, the title should be 'Genius'." Yeah. When you put it that way, it just ...
Speaker A
It hits you right away, doesn't it? Yeah. So he understood. He said, "Okay, I'll write it as 'Genius,'" and began writing.
Speaker A
Yeah. It was published as a new work. Interesting. It was released as a standalone book and became a million-seller. This is a bit of a tangent, but if it had been " Nogami," wouldn't it have been a bust?
Speaker A
Yeah. I don't know, but... " Genius" just fits so perfectly. It does fit, doesn't it? With "Nogami," It feels like it's not quite hitting the mark.
Speaker A
Is that just a gut feeling? I suppose so. It's an intuition. Plus, it lacks a certain novelty.
Speaker A
When writing about Kakuei Tanaka, " Ambition" seems like an obvious choice, right? Yeah. So, you might be tempted to say, "That sounds just like Kakuei Tanaka, let's go with that," but to have the sense to say, "No, let's go with '
Speaker A
Genius'"—that's something else. Well, that's true. He was a man who believed you could move people's hearts with money.
Speaker A
That's how he operated. And he climbed all the way to become Prime Minister. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
That's the kind of person he was, right ? Yes. And the very act of changing people's hearts with money is, in itself, evil.
Speaker A
Yeah. But politics... Yeah. ... cannot be done unless you move people with money to some extent.
Speaker A
Yeah. It's impossible. Yeah. That's the cruelty of politics, the destiny of politics. Yeah. Well, the fact that things move with money, that's also a form of maturity, if you want to call it that.
Speaker A
Yeah. That's why Kakuei Tanaka was someone who...... all the elements that politics possesses... Yeah. Indeed. ...
Speaker A
every fundamental element...... the very essence of politics... Yeah. Yeah. ...was someone who embodied it all, I think. So, once he had thoroughly criticized that money...Ah, I see.
Speaker A
The person... Yeah. ... concerning that...... started to understand it better than anyone. That's it. That's exactly it.
Speaker A
Yeah. So, he took one more step to the extreme. Yeah. Yeah. or rather, touching upon the dynamism Yeah. And as a complete picture of humanity Yes. " Evil" might sound like a harsh word, but evil can also be fascinating.
Speaker A
Yeah. And, well, politics is also something that moves through evil. Of course, you want to improve people's lives, build a good society, and make the nation a healthy one. Yeah. You want to develop the country further, and there are many such goals, but
Speaker A
taking all of that into account, it’s incredibly multi-faceted, isn't it? And in each of those parts, there are many things that just can't be resolved easily. Even so, it moves forward, it has to move forward, so by swallowing those things,
Speaker A
yeah. Isn't that how politics proceeds? To depict that, yeah. Yeah. To me, politics is like that, and while trying to depict it, unexpectedly , why Ichiro Nakagawa had to die— Yeah.
Speaker A
Rather than just writing about that, Yeah. He himself won't write about it. That's why he kept saying over and over that he would take it to the grave.
Speaker A
But writing about Kakuei Tanaka, Yeah. meant that I ended up writing about the essence of politics.
Speaker A
Yeah. That's what happened. I see. With the cards held, exactly, exactly. That's the mysterious thing about editors and creators; you can't see the completed form yet, and even I didn't think that far at first, but somehow when it cuts right through,
Speaker A
Yeah. into the other person's heart, when the words Yeah. pierce through, I've had the experience of achieving something incredible.
Speaker A
You've had plenty of those experiences too, haven't you? Yeah. Yeah. Our levels are different, though.
Speaker A
No, no, that’s not true. We naturally ended up talking about this today, but you don't really talk about editorial theory like that, Ken-san.
Speaker A
That's true. I really wanted to hear about that, I thought. Like, in "Edits Kaigi" or " Senden Kaigi," or an interview for " Senden Kaigi" about editing, you know.
Speaker A
Like an editorial training course. Well , no, it was either "Senden Kaigi" or " Edit Kaigi"—I think it was "Senden Kaigi"—where Editor-in-Chief Karada was in charge.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. I was on the cover for that too. Yes. It was my interview by Narumi Komatsu, the whole way through.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. And, well, the other magazine was that one was, yeah. Well, there was this feature about me, and I really didn't want to be in it, but Yeah.
Speaker A
Hanada-san insisted, and when he asks, I figured I had no choice but to do it.
Speaker A
I feel like that piece covers my editorial philosophy. A lot of people said they read it, even those who aren't editors.
Speaker A
Yeah. I don’t know why so many people want to hear Ken-san’s take on editing, but personally, I’d love to hear it. Besides, editors don’t really teach you things, do they? Like how to mark up a draft.
Speaker A
No, they definitely don’t. Or how to turn down a writer. Yeah. That’s just out of the question . Like Because to talk about editorial philosophy is to talk about life philosophy.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, there’s no point in saying it, which is why I don't. Well, my first book, "The Disease Called Editor," is being released as a paperback, and very soon it will be out as a pocket edition.
Speaker A
The hardcover was published by Ohta Publishing. Yes. Yeah. It contains all sorts of things related to editing, but Yeah. It’s close to a philosophy on life, isn't it? Well, I mean, editing is really just a matter of how you take your own past,
Speaker A
the life you’ve lived, and how you choose to convey those words. To the artist.
Speaker A
That’s all it really is. On the flip side, if I had to break it down mechanically, I think editing has three rough, simple processes.
Speaker A
Yeah. Procurement and shipping. You procure things. In other words, finding an author or a theme. It’s like sourcing, right?
Speaker A
Like at a sushi restaurant; you procure the goods, Yeah. Then you process them—like cooking, marking up red ink, structuring text, conducting interviews , and getting them to write.
Speaker A
And finally, the shipping, or promotion —how you get it out there. Oh, Oh, I see.
Speaker A
I think there are those three processes . Oh, yeah. That’s true. And the skills required are different, right? Or are they the same?
Speaker A
Yeah. Well, I suppose so. It's rare to find an editor who can do all three— some are great at proofreading, some are great at promotion, and some are just good at persuading people, you know?
Speaker A
Yeah. My mentor from my Kadokawa days, Watanabe-san, was like a talent scout; he'd just bring in whoever was trending and let others handle the rest. Yeah.
Speaker A
But Kenja-san, you do it all, don't you ? Do you think so? Well, I'm not sure.
Speaker A
Your promotion skills are arguably the best in Japan, your editing is incredible, and more than anything, being able to persuade authors and find themes—it's rare to find an editor who can pull in big names like that. I don't really know. Well, speaking of
Speaker A
persuading... Or rather, for example... Yes. Hiromi Go. Yeah. His " Daddy" book became a huge bestseller again.
Speaker A
Yeah. I had been working with Hiromi Go for a very long time. I think "Daddy" was published in my third or fourth year as an editor. At around 45 or 46 is when I put out " Daddy." Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Speaker A
But I had been in contact with him since I was about 35. You hadn't published a book yet?
Speaker A
No, I hadn't. One day, out of the blue, Yes. I got a call Yeah.
Speaker A
from the Hiromi Go camp. Yeah. They wanted Kenja-san to be involved, like a supervisor.
Speaker A
Oh. Back at Kadokawa? Back at Kadokawa. Ah, so— As editor-in-chief of a monthly magazine?
Speaker A
Right, so including the monthly magazine, they wanted help with promotions and such. No, no, it wasn't about doing promotions for the magazine.
Speaker A
Yeah. It was for the album's concept. Wow. That's amazing. And so, Yeah. that's when I first met him. And we kept in touch ever since.
Speaker A
Yeah. During that time, he had themes Yeah. that he wanted to publish. Yeah. Like golf books, Yeah.
Speaker A
English conversation Yeah. Yeah. books, and so on. Whatever he was into at the time. Like, "I want to publish this book." Exactly, exactly. And then, Yeah.
Speaker A
maybe about his life in America. Oh, that sounds like a good idea. Well, it was always there. But Yeah.
Speaker A
I Yeah. The first project I do with someone has to be a definitive one.
Speaker A
Yeah. Ah. Otherwise, Yeah. I’d feel awkward. Awkward, or rather ... I see. Yeah. I don’t want to have any regrets.
Speaker A
About the first piece we do together. Yeah. Exactly, I want to create their masterpiece.
Speaker A
Yeah. Creating a masterpiece—exactly right. That’s why I kept turning them down. Yeah. I mean, they can just do it elsewhere, isn't that fine? Right, exactly. I couldn’t agree more.
Speaker A
Then, one day I went golfing with Hiromi. On a grass golf course. There were four of us, and the other two kept hitting the ball into the rough, but as it happened, Hiromi and I kept it on the fairway.
Speaker A
With our drives, yeah. Yeah. And while we were walking toward our balls, Hiromi suddenly said, "Kake-san, I might have to get a divorce." Yeah.
Speaker A
He just started saying that. Yeah. I thought, "What?" Right in the middle of a golf game?
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. " I might have to get a divorce." He said , "I don’t want to get a divorce." Yeah. " I’m in so much pain right now.""But the cause is within me, it’s my fault ," he said. And for the first time, I
Speaker A
felt like I really understood Hiromi. Ah, I see. I thought, "This is it." And what I said to him, the words I chose, were: " Hiromi, try writing it down." Yeah. " Try this." Yeah. " Writing it down is also a form of
Speaker A
self-salvation."" By writing, you sort out your feelings, you save yourself," Yeah. " and maybe you can move forward."" Whether you make it into a book or not, just put that aside.""First,"" why don't you try writing it?" Right, exactly. That's exactly it. Put it
Speaker A
aside. Whether to publish it. Why don't you try writing it first? You say that, don't you?
Speaker A
Yeah. First, it will save you. Yeah. But that really does happen, you know. Fundamentally, expression is self-salvation.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. That’s what I told him. Yeah. And then he said, "I'll try writing it.
Speaker A
" Yeah. Well, it didn't just happen overnight, but you know. Before reaching the goal Yeah.
Speaker A
The idea of writing it down came up. So, how was Ken-san feeling inside? Well, exactly. This place is amazing.
Speaker A
Maybe. Yeah. Because his wife who is— Well, his wife is a person named Niyatani-san, but they were a national sweetheart couple.
Speaker A
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. And nobody ever expected a divorce. Oh, so at that time, they were seen as truly loving to the public?
Speaker A
That’s right. Hmm. And, like a symbol of happiness they were that kind of couple. So Yeah.
Speaker A
Including the details of the divorce Yeah. Everything is written in there. Yeah. And, no press conference either Yeah.
Speaker A
Instead of a press conference, read this book Yeah. That’s the kind of book he wanted it to be.
Speaker A
So, yeah. It had to be kept secret Yeah. He had to move forward with it.
Speaker A
Yeah. Uh He decided that and went ahead without telling anyone. So even to the president of his agency, well, the big boss, Mr. Suo of Burning Production, That’s nerve-wracking.
Speaker A
It was, it was heart-pounding. Well, yeah, it was intense. Very intense. Because he thought if this project Yeah.
Speaker A
leaked to others, it would just keep spreading. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You’d want to talk about it, right?
Speaker A
Well, I mean, if you did it without permission, it would be a disaster. Yeah.
Speaker A
That’s right. But even so, he just kept Yeah. getting absorbed into writing it. Yeah.
Speaker A
And, on the Shinkansen, oh, in the airplane, in the dressing room, Yeah. He started writing nonstop. Or rather than writing, he started typing it out.
Speaker A
And it just kept coming together. And by writing it, his mind became clear. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
And he wrote it in about a month and a half, didn't he? Wow, that's incredible. So he really was writing the whole time. And it was finished Yeah.
Speaker A
And there were some parts that needed fixing and some parts where we had to verify the facts, you know, we had to double-check things, and all sorts of — after going through the process Yeah.
Speaker A
And I had them rewrite it. When it went to press— Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Getting it to press took until morning.
Speaker A
Yes. Well, sending it to the printer. That's what "going to press" means. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
And I had a golf game scheduled that day. Yes. It was me, the author, and two others.
Speaker A
So, after staying up all night, I went. I went to a golf course in Mishima.
Speaker A
And then— I actually hit a hole-in-one. Oh! I mean, the manuscript—the "daddy" manuscript— Yeah.
Speaker A
I’d just finished sending it to press , and then with the author himself— Yeah. Yeah. At the golf course that day ...was it the 11th hole? I got a hole-in-one.
Speaker A
That was— That moment, I just— I thought, "This is going to be a billion-seller." Yeah.
Speaker A
I really felt that. And so— Anyway, I wanted the book's release to be a massive scoop— to reveal the divorce to the world.
Speaker A
Not on TV, not in the papers, not in sports tabloids, not in weeklies. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
It takes three months to produce a book . Yeah. To scoop a divorce in a hardcover book, and on top of that, it was all— Yeah.
Speaker A
All the reasons for the divorce were written, the person's joy too— their sadness, their pain, all written down.
Speaker A
Yeah. It became— Something unprecedented. Yes. Yeah. It really did. So, we took out a full-page ad in the Yomiuri Shimbun.
Speaker A
Yeah. We even kept it a secret from the distributors, and they were furious. When you ask them to distribute a book in secret, they usually judge by the content. Distributors, that is.
Speaker A
Didn't they say, "We can't do that if we don't know the title or the author"?
Speaker A
They did say that. They were furious. They did, but I had already decided on a first printing of 500,000 copies.
Speaker A
Yeah. A first printing of that size back then — Was— It was unheard of.
Speaker A
Unheard of. I wanted to turn it into a major event. Well, the divorce itself— Yeah.
Speaker A
Being revealed through this book—That in itself is an event, but— I wanted to add another element, so I set an unprecedented first run of 500,000.
Speaker A
Decided it. Yeah. And I said, "Fine, if you won't do 500,000, we don't need you to handle our book." I was bluffing.
Speaker A
Yeah. Well, And then— No, they were like, "Please wait a moment." I mean, there's no way a 100,000-copy initial print run is just an ordinary book.
Speaker A
So rumors started to spread. Yeah. That's why the content, Yeah. and even the title, I didn't disclose.
Speaker A
I asked Toppan and Nippan if they would do it anyway. Well, considering what Mr. Kenjo has done, 500,000 copies is an extraordinary feat. Naturally, I think they thought that, but in the end, Toppan and Nippan, Yeah.
Speaker A
agreed to do it. " Let's do it," they said. Yeah. Because if we do that, the rest of the distributors will follow.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. And there's what's called the "delivery date." To the distributors, Yeah. we deliver them. Two days after that, Yeah.
Speaker A
to bookstores nationwide, Yeah. they arrive. Yeah. So right before delivery, even though sample copies were out, Yeah. usually, about 10 days before, we bring them.
Speaker A
Books to the distributors, like, "This is the book." But we skipped all of that, Yeah.
Speaker A
and until the day of delivery, Yeah. kept it a secret. By doing that, the initial 500,000 copies Yeah. in three days sold out.
Speaker A
That's amazing. So we immediately printed 300,000 more, Yeah. Yeah. And five days later, another 200,000, so it reached 1 million copies in five days from launch .
Speaker A
I don't think there's another book like it. Yeah. So, in that sense, persuading an author or finding a good theme, from your perspective, Mr. [Name], it's really about working with various people, moving around, and encountering them. Well, that's true.
Speaker A
So, without a relationship of trust, it would have been impossible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s why, since helping with your album, we’ve kept in touch properly. Because we had, Yeah.
Speaker A
ultimately, everything is about how you live your life, Yeah. and that is what’s questioned in editing.
Speaker A
Conversely, for those who can't persuade authors or come up with good themes, many editors—the ones who produce hits are only about 10%of them, consistently producing hits, while 90%of them can't do that, right?
Speaker A
Right. What should they do? I don't know what they should do. Yeah. Well, you know, based on the life that person has lived, Yes.
Speaker A
I had no choice but to be persuasive, so I even asked Shintaro Ishihara to write about Yujiro Ishihara, asking him to do his first serial novel, and he agreed.
Speaker A
Well, yeah. For them to say yes, you need a history of Yeah. A proper relationship built up. So, I have been, you know, pouring my heart and soul into it Yeah.
Speaker A
For Shintaro Ishihara All this time. So that In that kind of relationship, you trade cards; every business is the same. Not just as an editor, but Yeah. By trading cards with each other, but this trading of cards really
Speaker A
requires a bond of immense trust to even Be able to trade them. Yes. So, if this person is bringing something up, I should listen.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. I really can't turn this one down. That kind of, "If it's a request from this guy, I have to." Well, exactly. Anyway, you need to be willing to listen To what this person has to say, or the
Speaker A
relationship isn't there, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It won't work. That "killer card" you mentioned— having a card where you can do something special for the other person —you can't have one without living life desperately to earn it, right?
Speaker A
That’s true. So, your way of life is on the line, And through that way of life, Your relationship with the other person is formed. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Speaker A
And so, a killer card is, first of all, when The other party plays that card for me, Yeah.
Speaker A
It means something incredible will happen for them. Yeah. That’s what a killer card is.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, rather than something incredible happening for me, first I see. Yeah.
Speaker A
For the person Yeah. Themselves, You play a card that makes them think something incredible will happen.
Speaker A
Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Every creative person—well, there are many writers, but for example, it could be Musicians, actors, Athletes, Politicians, Company executives, Yeah. Dancers, too.
Speaker A
Illustrators or painters, And all sorts of others; if you’re interacting with, say, 500 people daily , Yeah.
Speaker A
Then for each of those 500 people, you have three Yeah. You have to have a killer card. As an editor.
Speaker A
Yeah. But it's not just editors; it's true for all businesspeople. Indeed. That's why I'm always thinking about three, fifteen, or even fifteen hundred cards.
Speaker A
Yeah. Cards that, when played, could lead to something explosive and change the other person's life.
Speaker A
Yeah. Exactly, exactly. Or save them. Yeah. I mean, So, to be ready to play them, I...yeah.
Speaker A
Back when I was young, Murakami would call me around 10:00 PM and we'd talk for an hour. Yeah.
Speaker A
And when that ended, Teru Miyamoto would call. Yeah. And after another hour or so, Kohei Tsuka would call me.
Speaker A
Yeah. By the time all that was done, it’d be 1:00 or 2:00 AM. Yeah.
Speaker A
Then, suddenly, Kenji Nakagami would call— It was a lot. He’d call saying he was drinking in Shinjuku and asking if I’d come out, or he’d just show up at my house.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Like, "Hey." Yeah. " Let's drink now." And, "I'm staying here tonight," and so on.
Speaker A
I always lived near Shinjuku. Yeah. So, whenever they were drinking in Shinjuku, they’d end up visiting my place.
Speaker A
Yeah. Things like that would happen. Yeah. So, There were times I was drinking with Ryuichi Sakamoto almost every night.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. And then, during the period when I was working intensely with Mariko Hayashi, Eimi Yamada, and Mariko Mori, Yeah.
Speaker A
I was constantly in touch with them, and sincerely Yeah. offering them advice and support.
Speaker A
Yeah. Being an editor really means giving everything you have to those relationships, doesn't it?
Speaker A
Yeah. But hearing stories like this, I think some people might actually aspire to have an "editor's disease." It’s like being highly sought after by the creators of the era, isn't it? Even if it's tough.
Speaker A
Well, yeah, I suppose. Most people don't get invited out for drinks, right? That's true.
Speaker A
I want to drink with this guy. Being asked "Are you free now?" by all these different people means that when you’re drinking or talking, you’re providing something stimulating and— in terms of your words, yeah.
Speaker A
Whether or not you’re really reaching them. That brings out something new, which is what I always say. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
You won't get their attention unless you bring new stimulation and discoveries to the table.
Speaker A
Yeah. That’s true. When we talked about this, it was like, "Wow, he was right." If someone thinks, "Maybe I should try doing what he mentioned," that’s a huge deal. Yeah.
Speaker A
Well, you have that intuition. From the very beginning, when Mino showed up and asked me to write a book for him, Yeah.
Speaker A
He clearly felt I was essential to him from the start. But how do you actually acquire that? I know you probably hate this question, but how?
Speaker A
That’s why there’s no "how-to." If you could just learn it by reading a how-to book, or having someone teach you, it wouldn't be this hard. If someone wants to be an editor or is a young professional who hasn’t had a hit yet
Speaker A
—or even if they aren't young. What should they do if they want to acquire that skill? Or is it not that kind of thing?
Speaker A
You have to live honestly, sincerely, and with all your heart. Huh? Well, I mean, I don't tell lies or do bad things, but I'm the polar opposite of "sincere," and...
Speaker A
But you don’t live your life cheating right? Yeah. You don't cut corners or anything .
Speaker A
I don't cheat, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. So, as long as you live properly, that will come across.
Speaker A
But people who are*too*proper don't really get invited out for drinks, do they? They're too proper and boring.
Speaker A
Doesn't it need some spice, or a way to hook the other person? It’s not spice; it’s that you have to hook them.
Speaker A
Ultimately, you have no choice but to put yourself in their shoes. You mean having imagination?
Speaker A
Yeah. But people who are truly living their lives can understand how others live. People might misunderstand your idea of "living properly" as just following the rules or living by the textbook. It means sticking to your guns while navigating life's challenges
Speaker A
. That’s true. Rather, it’s about how to stick to your own path, regardless of society's rules.
Speaker A
That’s right—the rules of the body. I suppose that's true. Someone who has lived their life through elementary, junior high, high school, university, and into adulthood, living fully by their own personal code— something of that, to the other person,
Speaker A
will surely come across. Being half-hearted is the worst thing you can do. Half-hearted, vague.
Speaker A
Uh-huh. Yeah. Superficial, just patching things up. That’s true. That’s the worst, isn't it? If you set all of that aside and just be yourself, the other person will understand. Assuming the other person also lives their life that way,
Speaker A
of course. Even if our codes are completely different, we connect because we both live by our own principles.
Speaker A
Yeah. So, it makes you want to go out for a drink with them. Well, you don't necessarily have to drink; you could just have a meal, or sit around drinking tea, but ultimately, people can only connect based on the life
Speaker A
they’ve lived. Yeah. Yeah. So, it doesn't have to be just between an editor and an author.
Speaker A
That’s right. Business—what we call business—is built on that foundation. Yeah. Because it’s about moving people.
Speaker A
Exactly, thinking, "I'll do it for this person." Yeah. Right. Isn't it really about whether you can make them feel that way ?
Speaker A
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It really is. Yeah. That’s why there’s no such thing as "know-how." Yeah.
Speaker A
All you can really say is, "Live your own life properly." That’s right. That’s why Ken-san, even when addressing editors at the publishing house, always says that, doesn't he?
Speaker A
Is that so? Yeah. Yeah. It’s not about technicalities, skills , or techniques—no. You're saying, " Live your life honestly, don't fake it" —you've consistently said that.
Speaker A
Right. I’ve been saying that all along. As a company, that’s amazing. Publishing and our company keep asking if you are truly living your life with integrity.
Speaker A
That’s why it’s tough, isn’t it? It’s not like you can just diligently learn some know-how and produce a hit.
Speaker A
There isn't any. There isn't. That's right. Occasionally, there are hit-making editors who aren't really that type.
Speaker A
There are. That’s true. That’s only on very rare occasions. Yeah. Those people who just get lucky and happen to produce something. Well, those people definitely exist.
Speaker A
Some people even have their luck continue. Yeah. It doesn't last. Huh. I often say this, but if you can sell 100,000 copies of a book once, you can do it again.
Speaker A
Something accumulates inside you. But people who can't reach 100,000, well. They never will. I think I kind of get that. Like breaking a mental barrier, even in track, once you run a certain speed, you can do it again.
Speaker A
Exactly. You can do it. That's why breaking the barrier from 100,000 to 300,000 is really tough. Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. But once you hit 300,000, you'll hit it again. Yeah. Then comes the 500,000-copy barrier. 500, 000 is hard to reach, but once you do, it happens again. So, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
It's the same people doing it. That's right. So once you pass 500,000, there’s the 1,000,000-copy barrier.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Once you break the 1,000,000 mark, it's true, some people do it multiple times.
Speaker A
They keep producing them. That's why you have to constantly verify your own methods. Yeah. That's why I always talk about self-verification.
Speaker A
Yeah. When you verify yourself, you always find plenty of things to reflect on. Right. And you see a lot of things that aren't good enough. Self-verification.
Speaker A
Self-denial is essential. I get it. If you're always self-verifying, you’re forced into self-denial. Like, "I was no good back then." Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
Right. And when I verify myself, I think, "Man, I'm such a jerk," or "I'm such a weak man."" I took the easy way out," and so on.
Speaker A
They come as a set. Self-verification, self-disgust, and self-denial. I definitely reach self-verification and self-disgust, but, I end up escaping into self-affirmation .
Speaker A
Like, "That's just who I am." No, that's wrong. Looking at you, I think, after self-denial, yeah, you eventually yeah, reach a point of true self-affirmation.
Speaker A
Well, I did deny myself once. If you keep denying yourself, you’re left with nothing but self-affirmation.
Speaker A
Once you've been dragged through hell, you have to affirm yourself just to stand back up.
Speaker A
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Today is also kind of amazing. What is? Well, I was just thinking calmly yesterday and today—I've been going to the pool, inspired by Kei Tanaka and Ken-san—and while I was walking in the pool...
Speaker A
I thought, "Looking at this objectively , my life is just chatting with people all day long." I felt like I should be living more properly, but after thinking about it a lot, I realized that my job is just to chat.
Speaker A
Yeah. No, your chatting is different from just normal chatting. But you know, I'm saying this because I'm jealous. On ReHacQ, you had Higashide on, I shouldn't have watched that.
Speaker A
And with Kono-san, who else was there? Hiroyuki, Mito, and Higashide, and after 7 hours, it was already at like 500,000 views.
Speaker A
It’ll probably hit a million. Well, No, it’s going to hit it. Yeah. I mean, I'm jealous of stuff like that, but I wonder about it.
Speaker A
No, the day after, it's really, really tough. I'm cutting my own flesh. I'm cutting my own flesh here. You were the one who invited Higashide-san, right?
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Who is he? Oh, right now, his serialization in Spa ! turned into a book, so he’s come down from the mountain.
Speaker A
Oh, is that so? Yeah. And because Takahashi-san has been working too hard, he got an epiretinal membrane, so he's on a break now.
Speaker A
Oh, really? The regulars from ReHacQ are trying to fill the gap now. Yeah, so Takahashi has good character, that guy.
Speaker A
Yeah. Everyone is stepping up like that for him. Yeah. It’s not really a favor, but you can tell he never compromises and is truly working hard, right?
Speaker A
Oh, I get that too. I mean, I get it, but if you make others walk on a dangerous bridge, I think you should be able to walk on one too.
Speaker A
I got hit with karma. My eyes stopped working, so I got hit with karma, but I really see how hard he's working. He just has this pure desire to get the numbers, including the intellectual and SI side.
Speaker A
Yeah. Since he's working hard with that mindset, everyone's decided to support him. But, you know, back when Takahashi did my "Glory of the Back Home"...
Speaker A
Yes. Yes. You had him take a look at it, right? And then uh, it was amazing.
Speaker A
Yeah. He was so moved he came with his son and wife. To the screening.
Speaker A
And left clearly touched. But, I... Koga and Takahashi, right now...For one thing, Are they unable to say something nice?
Speaker A
It’s a fundamental issue. I mean, he has his own media platform, right? Exactly. He should just say it.
Speaker A
Yeah. He won't do it at all. How should I put it? He won't exert himself, He won't sweat blood for it.
Speaker A
Yeah. He won't go out of his way to do anything for others, right? Exactly.
Speaker A
That's how it is. But people are watching that. Yeah. Definitely. The only time he ever mentioned "The Glorious Back Home" was because he was forced to on Mr. Sunday.
Speaker A
He’s a commentator on it. Mr. Sunday did a special feature on "The Glorious Back Home." Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
When he was asked for his thoughts, well, you know. That guy from Bunshun, what’s his name...
Speaker A
Kuroiwa-san. Kuroiwa...what do you call Kuroiwa-san? Kuro... Oh Rina-Kuro. Yeah. I think it was Rina-Kuro and Takahashi.
Speaker A
That’s quite a lineup. But Rina-Kuro, you know, He said something nice. He said something nice. That was amazing. He said something that sounded like a movie line. Takahashi is watching. Exactly.
Speaker A
Of course. Right. Since he actually came to the screening even though he’s watching. I was grateful for that. I thought, " Wow, Takahashi actually cleared his schedule to come," and I really re-evaluated him.
Speaker A
Yeah. But even then, Yeah. He was like, "Yeah, I saw it," Yeah. And that was about it.
Speaker A
Something like "It was alright," without putting in any heart or soul. Even though he told me How moved he was when he left.
Speaker A
Yeah. "I was moved." Couldn't he have at least said that much? Ah, I see he’s just that kind of guy.
Speaker A
No, I understand. Sounds like Takahashi . He doesn't really say much, does he? Right.
Speaker A
So that’s just my extravagant Demand. Demanding such a thing is arrogant in itself. I know that. Yeah.
Speaker A
So, I think he just didn't want to have a personal relationship with me; it's just that I held no value to him, which is normal.
Speaker A
To go that far... I was watching this YouTube video while I was really confused and I lost my sight.
Speaker A
Yeah. No, he isn't the type to be shocked by things like that. What was it? Was it a retinal issue or something ?
Speaker A
No, he literally couldn't see, and we were doing this trip to Kyushu together , but he had to go home halfway through .
Speaker A
That’s pathetic. Well, that's... Maybe he had it coming? " Had it coming" might be too harsh, but how should I put it? Ah, this guy is putting himself on the line—well, not really putting himself on the line. I
Speaker A
just think it would have been fine if he’d just said, "It was an amazing movie, I really cried." Because that’s how he actually felt.
Speaker A
Takahashi-san has this weird obsession, or maybe a need to keep things balanced , it’s abnormal.
Speaker A
That’s exactly it. Appearing on your and Mimi-san’s YouTube channel, being invited to the screening, and talking about it on public airwaves—that balance is just a bit...
Speaker A
It’s not public airwaves. It’s your own YouTube channel. But he is a guy who really worries about things like that.
Speaker A
Why does he worry? About objectivity, or something. Objectivity? There’s no such thing as objectivity in the first place, is there? None.
Speaker A
It’s an illusion. People who talk about objectivity are just... Weird... Let's set that aside.
Speaker A
It’s not even a weird aesthetic. He has that, though. I’ve never seen him praise something, say it’s good, or promote anything. So he must have something going on inside himself.
Speaker A
No, he definitely has something. Yeah. That’s how it is. That’s just the kind of person he is.
Speaker A
Yeah. That is the kind of person he is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But he uses people for his own sake—sorry for the blunt phrasing .
Speaker A
Now that you mention it, I’m starting to feel that way too. But... But he is very earnest, you know.
Speaker A
Exactly, that’s why he’s a smart guy. Yeah. Yeah. He’s a smart guy, and although it looks like he’s taking risks...
Speaker A
He’s actually not taking any risks at all. Well, as a TV producer... Ah right exactly.
Speaker A
That's right. As a TV producer, you're just making others say dangerous things . There’s something I want to talk about. The traits of a TV producer and an editor are slightly different, aren't they? Aren't editors more of a
Speaker A
one-on-one thing? In a sense, a producer—aside from Mr. Hashigami—is more likely to have the mindset that if the show is exciting in the moment, that’s all that matters, even if it means leaving someone hanging.
Speaker A
That’s true. Human relationships... But, but TV people... They also consider the harmony of the whole team, don't they? Yeah.
Speaker A
Ah, I see. Because basically, it's work you can't do alone. It’s teamwork; there are cameramen, scriptwriters, and performers.
Speaker A
Well, there are screenwriters, directors—if I’m the producer, there’s a director, yes. Yes. And besides, we have to pay the broadcasting fees.
Speaker A
It reaches everyone, whereas an editor is really a clash of individualities. Yes. It’s really one-on-one, isn't it ?
Speaker A
Yes. So, yeah. Well, regarding Hiroyuki, I think he’s a good guy. I don’t really know. When I say I don’t know, it’s because I’ve never actually met him.
Speaker A
Ken-san, you said yourself that he dislikes you. No, no, it’s not that he dislikes me.
Speaker A
Yeah. I’ve seen him talk about me a few times. But that’s fine, Hiroyuki can say whatever he wants.
Speaker A
I don’t think he’s bad-mouthing me. It's fine. It’s just that I’ve never met Hiroyuki in person, so I don't really know, but I don’t dislike him.
Speaker A
Well, he’s exactly like he is on screen. That’s why I don’t bring him around, you know. You probably wouldn’t like him. Oh, but I wouldn’t dislike him either. I’d just think, "Oh, he's really like that.
Speaker A
" He’d probably show up in sandals, maybe even a little late, like, "Hey." Well, being late is bad, but the sandals are fine.
Speaker A
But, you know, when a junior editor said they wanted to make a book with Hiroyuki and I connected them, I said I didn't mind, but that Ken-san disliked me, so the editor's proposal...
Speaker A
No, no, I’d really love to publish your book, Yuki-san. I told them I don’t think you’d back out, and that you’re really not that kind of person. Even as a metaphor , it has nothing to do with what I’m
Speaker A
doing. Yeah, yeah, I made sure to convey that. See, for me, the cynicism... No, I don't dislike it. Watching you, you're cynical, but actually quite passionate.
Speaker A
That’s exactly right. That’s why I find it interesting to watch. If you were just cynical.
Speaker A
Exactly. I wouldn't like you. Cynical people who act all aloof... Yeah. It’s a turn-off. I prefer someone more natural, or what should I say...
Speaker A
Human, you know? Yeah. It’s interesting. That’s why the arguments with your wife are interesting too. As long as they aren't just for show.
Speaker A
They aren’t for show. Like, after Yuki Hirose and Ri Haku... When we were drinking until morning.
Speaker A
Yeah. You said, "Your wife goes crazy, doesn't she?" and I replied, "Yours is going crazy too, isn't she?" Like we’re in the same boat. So, as a unique individual, you have presence.
Speaker A
That’s why, whether I’m listening to you or someone else, I’m always incredibly interested. Azuma-san is...
Speaker A
There’s no one else like him, is there? Yeah. He lives completely on his own terms.
Speaker A
He’s truly incredible. We drink until 4 AM. Yeah. Then we wrap up, and I say, "I’ll see you off, Azuma-san.""Where are you staying?" I ask. He says, "I didn't book a place, I'll just crash at a manga cafe or something," and then he
Speaker A
heads off. It’s like someone who lives by hunting or something comes to the city.
Speaker A
But he never really conforms to city life. That’s right. He says, "I can just sleep anywhere around here." I think he’s an amazing guy.
Speaker A
He went through a hard time, but... Yeah. Actually, it was good that he went through with the divorce. Yeah. It was for the best. Yeah.
Speaker A
I think great rewards are coming his way. For Azuma-san. Oh, he mentioned he’d read "One-Man Mania" by Kenja-san too.
Speaker A
Oh, that’s really appreciated. But wait, what did you serialize in Spa? What was it?
Speaker A
Something about life in the mountains. Yeah. Like an essay about it. Oh, I’d like to read that.
Speaker A
Yeah. It’s nice, isn’t it? The writing is interesting, too. It really is. Wondering what a lone wolf thinks about while living.
Speaker A
It’s interesting. Yeah. He said he didn’t get corrupted by city life because he moved to the mountains. When he was busy in the city , Yeah.
Speaker A
He said he was swayed by its temptations. Yeah. Oh, is that so? Living at a completely different rhythm keeps you from getting corrupted.
Speaker A
And you know, he was good at games. He was a good actor. Yeah. With looks like that, people might think he became an actor for that reason, but he has so much within himself that he can't contain, interests and—
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Many things, with his own flow— Yeah. I think that's why he chose the path of acting. Like when he played Habu.
Speaker A
Yeah. The role of...Not "June Lion,"" March Comes in Like a Lion," or whatever month it was.
Speaker A
I was so impressed when he played Habu. Oh? That... He’d be happy to hear that.
Speaker A
I was truly impressed. Yeah. Really. Yeah. He became Habu himself, down to his movements.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. He wasn’t just doing an impression. Yeah. It was a brilliant performance, and it left a huge impression on me.
Speaker A
Oh? I was blown away by how good he was, and I think he will Yeah.
Speaker A
Continue to bear great fruit, so to speak— Yeah. He’ll achieve great things. But he doesn’t do it because he wants those fruits.
Speaker A
Yeah. He doesn’t want them. That’s what’s good about him. Exactly. Yeah. His face, which was already handsome, is gaining more depth.
Speaker A
So why did he come here? To promote that project? He’s a complex person with his own unique aesthetic.
Speaker A
I was asked to do promotions, and since he’s such a nice guy, I came down from the mountains to appear on ReHacQ and things like that, but every time I tried to talk about the book, he’d tell me to stop and say he didn't need
Speaker A
the promotion, so it really wasn't a promotion at all. I don’t know what kind of stuff you wrote, but I’m interested.
Speaker A
But it won’t sell. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he’s not the type who wants to do things that everyone will read, is he?
Speaker A
Yeah. So, The thing is, if we were to do it publicly—I won't say it here—but there is something we’ve planned to do.
Speaker A
You have to team up with me and Mino. Oh, I want to do it.
Speaker A
I definitely want to. That’s fine, and I mentioned it on that show, though it doesn't matter, but I was talking about Konno-san, the former Asahi...
Speaker A
Oh, I already passed that on to him. No, but that was just then. Is that so?
Speaker A
Yeah, actually, Konno-san and Ishimaru-san are in completely different places, but from Ishimaru-san ...Yeah. He asked me if Ken-san could appear on his program. Oh, really?
Speaker A
On NewsPicks, a program like "The Life Story of a Guest" has started. I was surprised that Ishimaru-san was saying he wanted to do something like that; it’s rare for him.
Speaker A
Oh, is that so? And for Konno-san—I don't know if Ken-san told him directly in public— but I told him that while he criticizes the Asahi Shimbun, his nature is actually quite like the Asahi Shimbun.
Speaker A
He hasn't taken a step out of the Asahi Shimbun group-think. And I told him that straight, because he’s not the type to get angry, and when I said that if he teamed up with me, something big might happen, he was like, "Oh, I'm
Speaker A
happy to hear that." He actually said that? We traveled together. Like 200 of us.
Speaker A
Yeah. We were together the whole time on ReHacQ, so we talked about that. What's amazing about Konno is that even when we get close or do various things, for example, like Yamada from Mercari...
Speaker A
Well, there are many others. Like those you're close with, like Horie...you know, Horie from dely, the Kurashiru Horie.
Speaker A
And, well, there are plenty of them. Take the East, for example. E-san is one, and Fujino-san is another. There are plenty of them. But you don't turn that into a business.
Speaker A
Well, that wouldn't be right, would it? As an editor. By the way, Horie-kun is writing a book right now.
Speaker A
With us. Yes. Of course. Yeah. You know, Gentosha, right? Gentosha. At Gentosha. And I do tell Yamada-san occasionally that he should write something like that.
Speaker A
Oh, really? Yes. But, unless there's something in it for him—Ken-san, unless there's a benefit for him, it’s meaningless. So , I plan to jump on it the moment he decides he wants to release something.
Speaker A
Ah, I see. You know, I think it's amazing that you lack that sense of egoism, but for me, once we get close—or rather, once a relationship is built—I start desperately thinking about what theme I should have this person write about and
Speaker A
how to approach it as an editor. It’s like an obsession. It’s the "editor's disease." Because I think about it so much, I can't rest until I turn it into an overwhelming business.
Speaker A
You don't have that. I do! I really do, but I’m honest about when something just won't work.
Speaker A
We’ll get all excited about what kind of book he should write. And then I just stop it right there.
Speaker A
Yeah. Right. No, if I go any further than that, it starts to become painful for me too.
Speaker A
Exactly. So you don't want to go through the pain. It’s exactly that simple. See, I’m the opposite. When I think it’s going to be a hassle or painful, I’m the type to think, "This is going to be a hit."
Speaker A
So I haven't inherited the most important part of Ken-san’s approach. But occasionally, even if it’s painful, I want to do it. That’s why my pace is slower than Ken-san’s, but when I find something that is definitely painful yet I still want to
Speaker A
do it, I have this extraordinary enthusiasm for it. Most things, though, I end up interpreting as, "This might sell a little, but who cares?" That’s why for a while, maybe about a year, you...
Speaker A
As a CEO, I actually once witnessed that fanaticism where you'd do anything , no matter how painful. That was NewsPicks Book.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Back when we were releasing one a month. You were putting out about two a month.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. And they were all becoming big hits, one after another. Yeah. I was watching that and thinking, "Wow, this guy is something." But it ended in a year.
Speaker A
It ended in a year. A year and a half, or two...maybe a year and a half. What I’m truly grateful for—maybe it’s just our generation—is that among the people who kept that same pace back then, none of them are "normal" now;
Speaker A
some got depressed, others had to scale back their work. Really, it’s just me and Sasaki-san. The only ones still out here making noise. Sasaki doesn't seem like he's making noise at all, but he’s doing well, right? Like, PIVOT.
Speaker A
Piv...yeah. Well, yeah. He's aiming for an IPO. Yeah. Well, I hope he succeeds, but he’s a calm guy, isn't he?
Speaker A
That’s why I think you’re the one who’s abnormal, Ken-san. Going through cycles of fanaticism and emptiness, while you, Ken-san, just keep going: fanaticism, fanaticism, fanaticism.
Speaker A
No, there is a belief in that. There is. No, no, it’s just that if the fanaticism stops......
Speaker A
you immediately fall into emptiness, so you have no choice but to keep the fanaticism going, one after another.
Speaker A
Doesn't that tire you out? Wait, tired? It's exhausting. Even if you get tired, there’s nothing more painful than being consumed by emptiness. Emptiness has its own kind of, well, interest, I suppose.
Speaker A
No, let me be clear: emptiness is comfortable. Yeah. When I say comfortable, I mean it's painful, because in emptiness, you start wondering if there's any point to living at all.
Speaker A
Because everything starts to feel meaningless. Well, everything is nothingness. Humans are born, live, and die, and when you die, you’re nothing .
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. There’s no afterlife, no religion. You just become wind in the wilderness. Just soil in the wilderness.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Right. It’s nothingness. We’re just a phenomenon that exists for a brief moment.
Speaker A
Yes. Eternal nothingness. Yeah. It’s an endless void. Yeah. That’s the essence. Yeah. Human fate, or destiny, is really just like a bubble that’s popped up for a moment; that’s our life. Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah. That’s so true. If you start thinking about that, you just can't go on. Anyway, when I was 40 , my own death...
Speaker A
Yeah. ... didn't feel real. Yeah. Right. It didn't at 50, either. Yeah. Even when I turned 60, I thought death was still an eternity away. But now I've turned 75.
Speaker A
Yeah. I think, "Wait, in 10 years I'll be 85, " and when I look at the obituaries...
Speaker A
Well, seeing people pass away of old age at 78 or so happens quite a lot. Ye ah. So I think, I guess I'll die around 85. That means I only have 10 years left.
Speaker A
Yeah. Right. It just makes things feel increasingly empty. But I don't want to fall into that emptiness. I find it easier to just let that emptiness settle down.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. But... Yeah. I find it easier... Yeah. ... to be enthusiastic. That’s true. Without that interest, Ken-san, you probably couldn't live.
Speaker A
I couldn't live. So, one obsession after another—but you can't just choose to be obsessed.
Speaker A
That’s right. Exactly. Enthusiasm is something that wells up from within the body. That’s why immersing yourself in it is so difficult.
Speaker A
Yes. Yeah. That’s why, with more young people today feeling empty, people often ask me, "Ken-san, how do you manage to stay so enthusiastic all the time?" I tell them, "I don't know, I’m just someone who can't live without being enthusiastic." That’s
Speaker A
the only answer I have. That’s the only thing it can be. So, finding a replacement for me here at Gentosha...
Speaker A
It’s not about ability or anything like that; it’s just impossible. Because I’ve only ever lived my own life.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Right. And Mino, too—Mino has only lived his own life. It’s just not possible. So, I spent a long time thinking about and trying to create a successor.
Speaker A
But I’ve stopped now. This... So there was a time like that. Yeah. There was. At 78, I feel that talk of successors and such doesn't matter anymore; things will just turn out how they're meant to.
Speaker A
I think that, but I still need to make sure the administrative side of things is handled properly. There are issues with stocks and various other things, right?
Speaker A
I do think about those, but ultimately, once I'm gone, someone else will be in charge.
Speaker A
Yeah. That's what I think, so. So for my editorial theory, or the successor to Ken-san, it's not about know-how or a "how-to," so I don't tell them "do it this way," but rather, I've lived life adhering to my own
Speaker A
principles, so persuading people, taking on losses, doing promotions— it’s just been about living by those principles.
Speaker A
It's just the result of that. Yes, that’s exactly it. That's what it is. But you know, I think I’m a very strong person, and I truly feel like a self-made man, but lately, the thing I was most jealous of
Speaker A
was actually that. The ReHacQ video with the four of you, why did that do so well? Your target of jealousy is misplaced. At the end of that, you guys were literally just talking about dirty jokes.
Speaker A
No, no, but the fact that people watch it... Yeah. ...means there’s something strong there. Yeah.
Speaker A
There is value. Value. Yeah. No, no, I know plenty of people who work super hard and still don't get the view counts.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. I usually know why something doesn't work, but why something goes viral... ...
Speaker A
I really don't know. Like, why is this blowing up? That’s just how it is. YouTube has really changed; you either make something like BreakingDown that's truly like a TV show, or you go live— there are really only those two poles
Speaker A
now, and anything half-baked just feels fake and unwatchable. So, people love the idea that something might happen during a live stream while drinking, and they just watch it lazily.
Speaker A
Well, I guess that’s it. Happenings. Just happenings. That’s exactly right. Do you know Daisuke Hori?
Speaker A
Honestly, for me, it's about filling my own void. Yeah. Indeed. My only theme is how to live each and every day with enthusiasm.
Speaker A
It's true that to make something good like TV, you have to get sponsors and raise money, and even for movies, it's the same...
Speaker A
And books, well, they're only worth a few million yen. Yeah. Yeah.
Topics:Kenjiro ShioShintaro Ishiharapoliticsmaturityeditorial philosophyJapanese politicsnovelist to politiciannecessary evilauthenticitypublishing
