Speaker A
You have a specific topic that you want to debate, right? Yep. Yep. Does Islam condone child marriage?
Cam Higby debates a Muslim opponent on whether Islam condones child marriage, focusing on Quran 65:4 and the definition of menarche versus puberty. The exchange is heated and frequently interrupted.
Key Takeaways
- The core dispute hinges on whether menarche is equivalent to puberty and what that implies for classifying a girl as a child.
- Both debaters accuse each other of evading direct questions, which frustrates the debate's progress.
- Textual interpretation of Quran 65:4 and the associated hadiths is central and contested.
- The format favored structured questioning but often broke down into interruptions and personal accusations.
What the video covers
- The debate opens with the topic 'Does Islam condone child marriage?' with ground rules about speaking time and avoiding interruptions and ad hominems.
- Higby cites Quran 33:49 and 65:4, arguing that the 'iddah' waiting period for prepubescent girls implies consummation and thus condones child marriage.
- He supports this with hadiths (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim) about Aisha's marriage to Muhammad at age 6 and consummation at age 9.
- The opponent presses Higby to define 'child' and asks whether he equates menarche with puberty, arguing that Higby conflated the two.
- Much of the exchange concerns burden of proof, with each side accusing the other of evading direct yes-or-no questions.
- Higby repeatedly seeks yes/no answers on whether intercourse with prepubescent children is always wrong and whether consent is required.
- The opponent contends that Higby's argument rests on an unsupported equivalence between menarche and puberty.
- The discussion drifts into comparisons with Catholicism and Biblical texts, which the opponent calls off-topic.
- The debate becomes aggressive with frequent crosstalk, and the host intervenes to keep the discussion structured.
- The video is a live-style formal debate format, with audience chat references and a time-limited structure.
Chapters
- 00:00Debate setup and establishing questions
- 02:30Quran 65:4 and the iddah argument
- 05:00Menarche versus puberty definitions
- 20:00Burden of proof and evasion accusations
- 31:40Consent and consummation questions
- 40:00Off-topic detours into Catholicism and the Bible
- 48:20Closing exchanges and final challenges
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
Okay. I'll let you start because you decided the specific topic and then I'll let Libyanna go for 60 seconds. So, and then we'll go free flow. I just don't want any interruptions. Not too many interruptions.
Speaker A
That's fine. He can start. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'd like you to start and then I I just don't want too many uh interruptions or ad homs. Just keep it simple.
Speaker A
No, I won't I won't ad hom. So, just to start, I want to ask some establishing questions, Lanna. um so that I don't accidentally straw men you uh would you say that intercourse/intimate touching with prepubescent girls is always wrong
Speaker A
regardless of the circumstance. Yeah. So I would agree with the biblical stance on this that yes or no. All I need is yes or no. I'm going to get into my argument. I just want to make sure I don't st
Speaker A
What are we doing already, bro? Well, hold up. I just need a yes or no.
Speaker A
I'm just asking establishing questions. So you think that Okay, then I'm not answering your yes or nos. You can continue. If you're not gonna let me give a full answer then you I'm not gonna answer you.
Speaker A
Well, it's my 60 seconds. Only reason you can establish further in your time answer yes or no in your 60 seconds.
Speaker A
You can't answer yes or no and whether it's always wrong to touch previous. I can't answer yes or no without further clarific clarification. So you can continue.
Speaker A
I just didn't want to burn my 60 my 60 seconds here. So Quran 39 uh 3349 clearly establish your 60 seconds now.
Speaker A
Go ahead. Thanks Nico. So Quran 33:49 clearly establishes that there is no ida. There is no divorce waiting period for uh a girl whose husband has not intimately touched her. Quran 65:4 very clearly establishes that for women in menopause
Speaker A
and women who have not yet hit puberty, there is a waiting period of 3 months.
Speaker A
They couldn't possibly have a waiting period for the Quran's own standards had they not been touched by their husband.
Speaker A
Thus, the Quran condones having intercourse, marrying and divorcing children. We can corroborate this with Sahel Bakari 5134, Sahbukari 5133, On 3378 in addition to Sahim Muslim 1222D, where they all talk about Aisha marrying the prophet Muhammad at the age of uh 6
Speaker A
years old. And then he consummates the marriage, meaning he finalized it through intercourse at the age of nine.
Speaker A
My position is that nine-year-olds cannot be adults. It's physically impossible. Um I guess you're not answering any questions. The rest of the questions to be clear were going to be would you say that it's always rape or to have intercourse or intimate touching
Speaker A
with preubessent individuals and would you say that in order to make a person do an action consent is required and do you think silence means consent?
Speaker A
Thanks Nico. All right I'll give uh 60 seconds to Liano right now. Okay Cam so you already you already fumbled because you made a nonsequitter right off the bat when you quoted 654.
Speaker A
You said that if a a girl has an EDA period, that means she had intercourse before her menarchy. Is that correct?
Speaker A
Yes. Well, no, it means that she has intercourse, but we're talking about girls before menarchy. Yeah, I I understand. But in order for her to have herd, then that necessity, she must have had intercourse with the correct.
Speaker A
This is true. Yes. Okay, cool. And you said therefore child marriage because she hasn't reached manarchy yet, right?
Speaker A
Well, child marriage, divorce, and intercourse. Yeah. Can I get a clear answer? Therefore, she didn't reach Therefore, it's child marriage because she didn't reach menarchy, right?
Speaker A
Well, it's disgusting girls that haven't reached menarchy. Yeah. Okay. So, is it child marriage because she hasn't reached menarchy is my question.
Speaker A
Yes, definitely. Yeah. Beautiful. So, your claim here, you just made an affirmative claim that a girl who hasn't menstrated is a child according to what standard is that? The majority of people who don't menrate that are female are children. Yeah,
Speaker A
there are some medical exceptions. Yeah. Can you can you quote anybody who said that a girl who hasn't menstrated but has other signs of pubesence is prepubescent?
Speaker A
Yeah, I'll just cite your own scholars. So like I imam al- Katubi who is Maliki school. You're Maliki. Yeah. He he confirms that 654 is saying exactly what I say.
Speaker A
That's not what I asked Cam. Cam the question was very simple. You made a scientific and a biological claim. Cam.
Speaker A
Yeah. You said that a girl who hasn't had menarchy, and for those who don't know what menarchy is, it's the first menstrual cycle that a female goes through.
Speaker A
So, you made the positive claim that a girl who hasn't reached manarchy is a child and she's prepubescent. What's the argument for that?
Speaker A
Well, I think that girls who haven't yet reached puberty are children. Do you disagree?
Speaker A
Didn't ask what you what you think, Cam. You made an affirmative claim. Do you disagree?
Speaker A
You made No, you're burden shifting now. Good try. You made an affirmative claim. You said that he's burden shifting. So again, you just made a claim. You said a girl who has not reached menarchy is prepubescent. What's the argument for
Speaker A
that? Is this the argument you're going to hang your hat on is that prepubescent girls aren't children?
Speaker A
I didn't make an argument. I'm asking for an affirmative claim. Are you going to answer the question?
Speaker A
I would I would just like appeal to the definition of a child. And what would that be? A girl who hasn't reached monarchy.
Speaker A
Sure. a young human being between birth and puberty or a son of a daughter of any age.
Speaker A
Right? That's the that's question begging. Now, are you saying that manarchy is puberty? That there's an equivalence relation?
Speaker A
Uh well, I mean the definition of child is literally a young human being between the definition I'm fine with the definition of child. That's fine. But your claim was your claim was per the Quran a girl who has not reached menarchy cuz that's
Speaker A
what 654 is saying if she hasn't yet menrated then herda period is so on and so forth right you said that therefore that means child marriage and you just define child marriage to be a girl that's prepub a a
Speaker A
girl that's prepubescent you just shot yourself in the foot I didn't because you equated pub let me talk because you equated pubesence with menarchy so Now stop running away and demonstrate how manarchy just is pubesence. Can you demonstrate the equivalence relation
Speaker A
please? The Oxford definition is a young human being between the age of birth and puberty. So that would be that would be my reasoning but also but but by the way this is an internal snee puberty. I agree with that definition.
Speaker A
So now are you going to give the evidence cuz you made an affirmative. I concede your definition. I want to operate off your definition anyway. I'm going to repeat my question one more time and if you don't answer, I'm just
Speaker A
going to I'm just going to move on cuz you I didn't I actually didn't say the word manarchy. I never said that. You're lying.
Speaker A
You You agreed to me when I asked you about manarchy. And if a girl if the Quran teaches that a girl can be married before manarchy, you said yes, that's child marriage, did you not?
Speaker A
Well, before her first menstrual struggle. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So, then if a girl hasn't reached menarchy and she gets married and hasn't of course has child marriage, right?
Speaker A
Yeah. So, can you just tell me what the standard is? Like, this is an internal critique. Just tell me what your standard is.
Speaker A
Answer the qu. He's backtracking now. I'm stand I'm willing to operate under any standard you provide. What's the standard at a claim, Cam? Why are you soiding you to your claim? That's all I'm doing. Everybody saw you. There's
Speaker A
like 5,000 people watching or more. Cam said that the Quran 654 teaches that a girl before manarchy can be married and can have consummation. He said that means that's child marriage. Now he can't support his claim because I asked
Speaker A
him what is the substantiation that manarchy just is pubescent. Yeah I so I gave you the definition but I'll just appeal to your own scholars.
Speaker A
Are you maliki? Is that the definition doesn't answer the question. Are you maliki? Are you maliki?
Speaker A
I'm madiki but that doesn't help you. Can you answer my question? No it does. I'm just going to read your scholars the jurist prudence like it's going to be read them. They're not going to say that manarchy is not pubescent.
Speaker A
Yeah. So, so let's say like uh Abu Bakr al- Arabi says he's Maliki school or Maliki. He says um he lived between uh 1076 and 1148.
Speaker A
What's your point? What's that to do with it? So he's directly issuing commentary on 654 and he says meaning fine just get to it.
Speaker A
Meaning the young girl and her waiting period is also months. So he's talking about the waiting period. He confirms. So then you can go you could also go to Iben Rishid. He confirms that we're talking about prep agree on that.
Speaker A
Yeah. So so yeah. So can I can I finish Sneo? Do I get a chance to make an argument or is this guy just going to talk the whole time?
Speaker A
Sure. Sure. Go ahead. Just read but you go ahead. So So I imam alazi he's Maliki. He says u he cites 654 and he says his he agrees that there is no um he justifies the validity of a marriage contract before puberty.
Speaker A
specifically citing 654. He says, "No, no, no, no, no. Hold on one second. Hold on. I'm gonna just let me interject.
Speaker A
Cam, I'm gonna say I want you to be able to read without interruptions, but after this, can we keep it as a conversation?" Do I not get to jerence? Do I not get to site on the quote he read? He just lied.
Speaker A
Let's let him be said. Let's let him finish. I can send it to you. It's fine.
Speaker A
Okay. How many How many quotes are you going to read? I'll read as many as you want me to.
Speaker A
This This one specifically from from Alarazzi. He literally says that it says The marriage contract is valid before puberty. He says before puberty. So um he's talking about 654. He says he cites 654. He says his saying and those who
Speaker A
have not menrated. So he established that among our women who have not menrated this indicates the validity of the marriage contract before her puberty. This is your school of juristprudence and this is a scholar from your school of juristprudence.
Speaker A
That's agreeing with me. In fact they all agree with me. Cite me one scholar that disagrees with my position.
Speaker A
Okay, there we go. Cold. Watch how I'm going to bury him tonight because he doesn't he came into this not actually understanding what he's talking about. Okay. None of the quotes you read disagree with my point.
Speaker A
You made a very specific claim. YOU SAID MENARCHY JUST is puberty and you haven't demonstrated that.
Speaker A
So then why does literally conflate? Let's be fair. Let's be fair. Let's let him respond now. Stop spam quoting and cutting me off before I could respond.
Speaker A
Okay. So, he's getting uncomfortable now. I'm not uncomfortable at all. What you read what you read all it establishes which I already agree I'm 10 steps ahead of you that a girl according to Islamic law when is satisfied can be
Speaker A
married and consummated before menarchy not before pubesence. Okay. Okay. That's point number one. Let me finish.
Speaker A
Let's let him finish and then you can respond. Point number two, he said, "Give me one scholar of my school who disagrees with what he said." Im Malik himself, THE FOUNDER OF THE Maliki school, says in his book,
Speaker A
look what he says. I have it right here, buddy. No worries. Let me pull it up for you.
Speaker A
Let me pull it up for you, man. uh took a screenshot of it. To be fair, I told Cam that you were the from the Maliki school before.
Speaker A
What did he say? He says in in volume two page 177, he says he is not obliged to hand over the da until she reaches the stage of being able to have intercourse.
Speaker A
Right? What's your point? Then we have then we have a commentary on it says I'm going to translate. I read Arabic unlike you.
Speaker A
If she is of age at which one like her is not capable of intercourse, then her family has the right to prevent him from consummating the marriage with her until she is physically capable of intercourse. You see how I answered his
Speaker A
question and I didn't have to because he ran away from his claim. Now I'm going to take him back to his claim. Sir, your claim was if a girl is married and consummates before menarchy, that's child marriage.
Speaker A
Can you demonstrate? You're not you're not even tracking the argument. You're not even like accurately representing my argument.
Speaker A
Okay, I'm going to let In fact, you haven't even let me make an argument. So are you going to let me make an argument? It's just the microphone.
Speaker A
Your argument was 654. If the Quran I'm going to steal man him. If the Quran allows marriage before manarchy, that's child marriage, right?
Speaker A
Is that what you said, Cam? Yeah. Beautiful. Can you show me that manarchy just is pubesence?
Speaker A
Yeah. So, again, I'm just going to cite one of your own scholars. Is he going to ever answer the question?
Speaker A
Yeah. So, I'm just going to cite your own scholar again who literally conflated Okay. Can you cite a scholar who says manarchy is pubesence?
Speaker A
Yeah. Imm al- Marazi. I already read it. You just weren't listening cuz you're stupid. He says in his saying, "And those who have not menrated, so he established among our women who have not menstruated, this indicates the validity
Speaker A
of marriage contract before puberty." So he's citing 654 where it says they haven't menrated. And he's saying this upholds the validity of the marriage contract with her before puberty. You just got cooked.
Speaker A
Watch watch this. Watch this guys. When it says before puberty, the Arabic there is and belug in Arabic refers to menration.
Speaker A
You see how stupid you are? So you BEG THE QUESTION AGAIN. So why does So why does the text use menrate and puberty as different? I'm answering this, brother. I'm telling you, you're way out of They're two different words. You're
Speaker A
lying. You're literally lying. Let me let me finish, brother. Let me finish. Okay. When the scholars refer to pubesence, okay, they could either mean pubescence as in all the factors which are taken into consideration for a girl to be marriageable or pubesence, there's
Speaker A
an equivocation as in which means having your first menstrual cycle. Yeah, this is not true.
Speaker A
A girl, a girl, it uses the word separately in the text. So, you don't have the text in front of you. You don't even know what words are used.
Speaker A
Can I Can I finish? Do you have I imam Alarazzi's book in front of you? Volume 2, page 144. Do you have it in front in front of you? Cuz you have no idea what you're talking about. You're literally lying.
Speaker A
I want to hear your saying. Hold on. Let's He's lying. He's He's just lying. He doesn't have the book in front of you.
Speaker A
We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. I want to hear your distinction between the two words. Let's let Li and then you can go.
Speaker A
This guy's going to talk the whole time. Away from my question. This guy's going to talk the whole time.
Speaker A
I'm never going to get an argument. There have been a lot of there have been some interruptions. Lanna, let's try to let him speak as well.
Speaker A
I Okay. Can I finish? Yes, you can. Okay. Okay, cool. So, I just told him he's [snorts] equivocating on pubescence.
Speaker A
He's making a biological point. Okay. Now, he's begging the question. He doesn't know how to argue. Okay. The biological point that he made was menarchy just is pubesence.
Speaker A
Do you agree with that, Cam, or no? Uh, menarchy can be a sign of pubesence.
Speaker A
I'm not arguing that it's the only sign of it's a sign. If you've had menarchy, you've hit puberty. Yes.
Speaker A
Okay. So, manarchy is a necessary factor of pubesence. I didn't say that. I said the opposite.
Speaker A
You're just straw manning me. Okay. Is manarchy s is manarchy sufficient. Or can a girl good. Or can a girl be pubescent without manarchy?
Speaker A
I already said she can be pubescent without menarchy, but it is sufficient. If she has manarchy, she's pubescent.
Speaker A
It's over. It's over. No, it's not. Cam, you just said a girl can't be pubescent without menarchy, right?
Speaker A
What? What do you think the sign that they use to deter Oh. Oh, no. I don't I don't get the rebuttal. I don't get the rebuttal. This clown just screams into the microphone. Just shut up. Pipe down, big dog. Chill out.
Speaker A
You're like a [ __ ] Bro, you're a tweaker, dude. Chill out. Let me respond.
Speaker A
I'm as I Holy smokes. Dude, you're literally tweaking out. Let me respond, dude. This isn't a debate.
Speaker A
This is you teaching a lesson. This is you doing a lecture, bro. Can you repeat my question?
Speaker A
The question was, and I want I wanted less interruptions, please. He asked you, did you say that menarchy can happen?
Speaker A
No. Pubesence can happen before. I've held that since the very beginning. But the way that you determine whether or not a girl has reached puberty in the sixth century is you'd see if she's reached menarchy. Now, allow me allow me
Speaker A
to make an argument, please. Considering this is my topic and you're debating me, I think I should be allowed to make arguments. Yes or no? What do we think?
Speaker A
Liiano, can you pipe down for a second? Thank you so much. I appreciate it a lot.
Speaker A
Okay, so let's get to the topic. Libbyiano, do you think he's going to run away from He's going to run away from it.
Speaker A
Do you think that consent for marriage is required? Okay, nice try running away. We're going to go back exactly to what you just admitted and conceded.
Speaker A
Well, let's talk about the marriage before we talk about intercourse. He's he's trying to run away from his concession. I'm not.
Speaker A
Everybody, ladies and gentlemen, I would have had to take the opposite position first to consider.
Speaker A
You just spoke. Can I speak now? I never did that. [clears throat] Lad ladies and gentlemen, Cam just conceded the entire debate.
Speaker A
He's just not No, I didn't. The debate is child marriage. You just spoke so he can cut me off, but I I would like to hear your followup question about consent, but let's let Lana respond and then you can
Speaker A
So, what he wants to do is he wants to move on from his concession to somewhere else. I'm not going to let him single second of the argument.
Speaker A
Can you Can you shut your mouth, Cam? Hick. We don't need to do that. Yeah, but he he doesn't want to show here and then move on because I think we're we're not All right, cool. So, he just conceded
Speaker A
the entire debate over. He just said, "Can you control yourself, Cam? Can you control yourself?" Yeah, I know it's tough.
Speaker A
He just conceded. He just said that a girl can be pubescent if she hasn't menrated. So then his argument from 654 fails.
Speaker A
No, it doesn't. Because his first his first claim was [snorts] the Quran says a girl can't be married before menarchy. Therefore, child, can you stop cutting me off?
Speaker A
Well, can I make an argument? Thank you. His first his point was it's literally over. His point was a girl, the Quran says a girl can be married and consummate marriage before manarchy, [snorts] therefore child marriage. And he defined a child to be somebody from
Speaker A
the age of uh b from birth a female from birth until what? Until pubesence.
Speaker A
So he said so he says a girl as long as she's pubescent before menarchy this wouldn't be child marriage. So now do you concede that the Quran in verse 654 is not referring to child marriage rather referring to a girl who has all
Speaker A
of your scholars interarchy your entire scholarship including all agree with me is the Quran I don't concede you ask me a question no I don't concede my qu this is my question can the Quran is the Quran referring to a girl who is
Speaker A
married and menrated before menarchy yes the overwhelming majority of Girls who haven't hit menarchy are children.
Speaker A
Yes. Good. And before menarchy, a girl can be pubescent right? Before Yes. What's your point?
Speaker A
Beautiful. So the Quran is speaking about a girl who is before manarchy but is marriageable, right?
Speaker A
Does the Quran say that it doesn't apply to girls? Answer. So the Quran is referring to a girl before menarchy who is marriageable right?
Speaker A
Does it does it say that? No, it doesn't. Yes, you just admitted it. Does it say explicitly that she that she has to admit puberty? Does it say she has to admit puberty?
Speaker A
Just answer the question. Just answer the question. You're talking about pubescent girls who haven't reached menarchy. Does it say in the verse or does it just say and those who have not yet menstruated? Can I respond to this
Speaker A
guy? He's been chimping out for hours. Let me come on. Does it say answer the question directly? He's chimping.
Speaker A
I've already answered the question directly. The Quran in this verse does not explicitly say that it only applies to girls who have hit puberty but not hit menarchy. It says and those who have not yet menrated. The overwhelming
Speaker A
majority of girls who have not yet menrated are children. And I would even posit that a person who has hit puberty and still hasn't menrated is still a child or still could be a child. Okay?
Speaker A
It doesn't actually give any kind of developmental standard. Okay? You can still be so like if somebody hits precocious puberty and they've hit puberty but not menarchy yet like you're describing that person's still a child at 2 years old if they've hit puberty at
Speaker A
2 years old right pubesence doesn't determine adulthood does the Quran condone child marriage yes it does bent Abakar was 6 years old when the prophet married her she was a child okay you went on and on and on and on
Speaker A
you see but I'd like to have a flowing conversation Cam instead of going and you don't want that so Cam let's start right now Cam Ma'am, your argument was 654 necessitates child marriage. Is that correct?
Speaker A
It permits it. Yes. I didn't ask that. Does it necessitate child marriage? I never said that. I said it permits it.
Speaker A
So 654 does not necessitate child marriage right? It allows it. Okay. The topic, what's the topic of the discussion? Is it that Islam permits child marriage or I understand. I'm trying to go in my train of thought, dude. Well, your train
Speaker A
of thought is like in never neverland, bro. Does Does 654 necessate child marriage? It allows it. It permits it.
Speaker A
They didn't ask that. It doesn't command it. It doesn't command it. Asate child didn't ask that. Does 654 necessate child marriage?
Speaker A
It doesn't command. What do you mean by necessitate? Let's answer the question. You see how he's literally not answering anything?
Speaker A
I've answered it. It doesn't command it, but it permits it. The question was, does 654 necessitate child marriage?
Speaker A
It permits it. It doesn't command it. I What does necessitate? 654 necessitate child marriage.
Speaker A
It necessitates the permission of child marriage. Didn't ask that. Does 654 necessate child marriage?
Speaker A
No, I don't know what he means by necessity. He's trying to walk me into something here. It permits it. We're going step by step, but he doesn't want to answer the question.
Speaker A
Can you establish that you believe that it permits it? Yes. But the question is specifically, does it necessitate?
Speaker A
Well, I don't know what he means by I don't know what he means by necessitate.
Speaker A
limited time so I don't want to keep circ necessitate it in that if this verse exists it will happen most likely. Yeah.
Speaker A
Okay. Didn't ask that. I said does 654 Just make your argument. Necessitate does 654 necessitate child marriage permits it. It doesn't make your argument.
Speaker A
Is child marriage the only possibility with a girl married before marriage? I never said that.
Speaker A
Thank you very much. So Cam Higgby has just conceded something very conceded. This has been my position from the beginning.
Speaker A
Let me Oh god, dude. You actually can't have a flowing conversation. Then you say, "I'm chimping out and I'm going crazy and I'm a lunatic." All right. All right. Whatever. So this is the first step.
Speaker A
Many anti-Islamic people, people like him, they say that 654 can only be understood as child marriage. He just conceded something very major that a girl can be pubescent. can be pubescent before she has her first menration. So she can't be mar she can be married she
Speaker A
can go through the before her menration and she would be perfectly it would be perfectly okay. So Cam Higgby, can you just confirm for us it is perfectly moral to marry a girl before menarchy and sleep with her? Right.
Speaker A
I don't think so. No, you do though. No. Is it perfectly moral? I'm going to ask you.
Speaker A
It's obviously wrong to to have sex with girls before menarchy. Yeah. Okay. So, it stands independently true that sleeping with a girl before menarchy is wrong, right?
Speaker A
Yeah. I think that I don't know if you do cuz you refused to answer the question at the beginning of the discussion. I didn't ask if you I said is a stance independently true.
Speaker A
It's an opinion and I think it should be the majority opinion. Not asking about your opinion. I'm asking if it stance independently true.
Speaker A
Anyone could make an argument against anything. No, it's Well, I would say that it's objectively true because of Christianity.
Speaker A
Is is murder stance independently wrong? Uh I think so. Yeah. It's my view that is good. Is sleeping with a girl before manarchy stance independently wrong?
Speaker A
Yes. It's my view that it is. Yeah. Is it your Is it your To be clear, is it your view that it is? Well, it's just my opinion. You asked me my opinion. Is it your view that it's wrong to have sex
Speaker A
with girls before men? No, I I agree. I agree with the Bible. Go ahead. Go ahead, Liiano. Go ahead and answer. Do you I just I just answered I agree with Jesus Christ.
Speaker A
Just answer the question. Moses, Yahweh, and the Bible that it's not wrong. It's not wrong. You think it's not wrong to have intercourse with children?
Speaker A
[laughter] I didn't say children. I said a girl before menarchy, which you already agreed is not a child. Thank you very much. So according to the according to the Bible, I agree with the Bible here.
Speaker A
I am the Bible. Lifting the Bible. The Bible says you have to reach maximum maturity. But we're not having a discussion about the Bible, bro.
Speaker A
Show me the verse. First Corinthians 7:36, but we're not having a discussion about Christianity.
Speaker A
Defend your religion, bro. Stoping does not say that. Hyperian 736. Now you're running away. The flower are you.
Speaker A
You're running. You're running away. First Corinthians 7:36 says that. It does not say that.
Speaker A
You have to reach the flower of your age. Hyperamos. It does not say that. It says until she reaches the flower of her youth.
Speaker A
Yep. And what is the word? What is the Greek word? Hypergamos. Thank you very much. It means maximal maturity.
Speaker A
Pinnacle of maturity. Doesn't say anything. Doesn't say anything about dumbass. What language was it written in? [ __ ] You see how he's calling me dumbass now.
Speaker A
What language is it? What language was it written in? Start. I have it written in Greek. Let me know. It was written in Greek. Go ahead and name pinnacle of maturity. That's what the word means.
Speaker A
Hyperamos. flower there means hyp the word is hyperamos. Yeah. And according to Yeah. He he just destroyed himself. And according to Roman law and according to Roman law, the height of maturity is the age of 12.
Speaker A
Am I a Roman? So thank you. So thank you very much. Am I a No, but you just said this is written in the context of Roman law in Greek and Roman context. Roman understand from Paul to the church in Corinth.
Speaker A
You just sir, he just made a claim. He doesn't know anything about you. Just made a claim. Let me finish dude. Thank you. You just made a claim that the Greek word means something. Well, we know what the Greek word means according
Speaker A
to the contextual usage of the word at the time, right? Um, the definition of the Greek word hypergamos is pinnacle of maturity, right? The contextual usage of the word at the time, right? How the people used it, how the author understood
Speaker A
pinnacle of maturity. Pull up a lexicon right now. Right. And pinnacle of maturity would be understood in the context of the author and the speaker, right?
Speaker A
Sure. But can you prove to me that Paul specifically and the author and the author who is Paul of Tarsus was living under Roman law was a Roman citizen, right?
Speaker A
Uh, sure. What's your point? Okay. And the Christian church adopted Roman imperial law. Are people capable of disagreeing with their governments?
Speaker A
Yes or no? No, you'd have to actually demonstrate that he disagrees here. Well, you'd have to demonstrate that he agrees. Actually, you're the one making the claim that he agrees improves on you.
Speaker A
I I don't I'll I'll tell you why. No, I'm appealing to the definition of the word that he used. You're appealing to You can't you can't strip. I'm gonna tell you why. You see, you don't know anything about the Bible.
Speaker A
Of course I do. Were you going to defend your religion? You've now pivoted the discussion away from your religion.
Speaker A
Oh god. He he makes a claim. Then he says, "Can you defend your religion? You just made a claim.
Speaker A
You've respond topic of the discussion. You can respond. You don't you don't want me to defend.
Speaker A
You don't want me to answer what you just said? You can. You can do whatever you want.
Speaker A
Go ahead. All right. Good. So, I'm going to do whatever I want. I'm going to answer what you said." Okay.
Speaker A
He said that the word is stripped away from its contextual and historical meaning which is gibberish. It's nonsense because the way we understand authoral intent when it comes to ex Jesus is using contextual clues and historical usage. And we know that Roman
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law and the Christian church has adopted Roman law when it comes to marriage and Christianity for up until a couple of hundred years ago. the Catholic Church and the Eastern Roman uh Eastern Orthodox Church and the Christian church
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in general have adopted Can you turn off the TTS? Yeah, turn it off. Yeah. Have adopted that a girl is married at the general age of 12 and Thomas Aquinas mentions who's the doctor of the Catholic Church that if she
Speaker A
reaches marriage ability beforehand like the age of seven or eight then this would be valid. So, just a question before we go back to my religion. Is Thomas Aquinus a pedophile?
Speaker A
Uh, I I I'm not a Catholic, so I'm not going to make a prescription.
Speaker A
Okay. You don't have to be a Catholic to recognize a pedophile, just like you think the Prophet Muhammad is, but you're not a Muslim.
Speaker A
I study Islam. I don't study Catholicism. Is Thomas Aquinus a pedophile for thinking that a girl under 12 can get married?
Speaker A
I I study Islam. I don't study um Okay, I can read the quote for you. No problem.
Speaker A
It honestly I don't care. Like, it doesn't matter to me. No, no, no. I care. I The people care.
Speaker A
You're just running away. Is the Catholic Church a church of pedophilia? Well, I I I would question if he actually said that. Like I'm not I'm supposed to Okay, let's let's read let's let's read it then. Here. The Suma Theologica.
Speaker A
You're just distracting from the discussion. We have one hour. He said I doubt he he doubt. He said it right.
Speaker A
We have one hour, bro. And he's run away from the discussion. Sneak quotes. Let's let him read this.
Speaker A
Fine. And then I get to get back into Islam right? Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Hold on.
Speaker A
Yes. I see the reason that you're saying this is because you're saying that he's not defending his religion, but he's saying his reasoning is that he's defending his religion by agreeing with the church.
Speaker A
Yes. So that is a way that his reasoning to So here we go. Thomas says in the church Thomas after after he reads his quote I would love to let you respond. Let's we're about halfway through. Let's try
Speaker A
to keep it with less interruptions going forward. He's getting nervous. Can we agree this please?
Speaker A
I'll try my best. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here we go. So Thomas Aquinus says in the suma he says regarding the age of marriage contract a disposition is required not only on the part of use of reason but also on the
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part of the body in that it is necessary to be of an age of adapted to procreation. And since the girl becomes apt for the act of procreation in her 12th year and a boy at the end of a se
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of a second seven years as the philosopher says whereas the age is the same in both for attaining the use of reason which is the sole condition for betroal. Hence it is the one age assigned for both regards betroal but
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not as regards for marriage. He also says in the suma in the same chapter he says if anyone reached the required perfection before the age of 12 so that nature and reason are sufficiently developed to lack the supply the lack of
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age that marriage is not an old and he this is the last quote I'll read from him he also says in the suma in the same chapter wherefore if the parties who marry before the age of uh puberty which
Speaker A
he says is 12 have marital intercourse before the afor for said age. Their marriage is nonetheless perpetually indisolable.
Speaker A
Okay, thanks for thanks for the filibuster. I'm not a Catholic. Do you believe that Thomas Aquinus is a pedophile?
Speaker A
I'd need to do more research. I'm not a Catholic. So, thanks for the the filibuster about Catholicism, but I'm not a Catholic.
Speaker A
I wasn't listening to what you were reading. So, anyway, let's get back to the discussion. Are you this scared of me, Libyan? Are you Are you this afraid of me?
Speaker A
Why? It's not relevant to the discussion. You don't adhere to the church, Libyan. You're a liar. You don't adhere to the church. You adhere to the sunnah and the Quran cuz you're a Muslim.
Speaker A
Engaged with all the Hold on. He wasn't listening. Cam Cam, to be fair, Liano engaged WITH EVERYTHING.
Speaker A
NO, HE HASN'T. HE HASN'T ENGAGED in with anything I've said. Engaged with everything. No, he hasn't. He hasn't engaged with a single thing I've said.
Speaker A
So now, I'm not going to let you go from this. Is the Catholic Church from the very beginning, he wouldn't even answer the establishing question.
Speaker A
Eastern Orthodox Church. No more interruptions, Cam. He did engage in the first half. Sneo. He hasn't engaged with a thing I've said. I asked him establishing questions at the beginning of the debate and he refused to answer too. He conceded his argument too.
Speaker A
Cam is is the Catholic Church a church of pedophilia. I'm not a Catholic. I don't know.
Speaker A
So let's move back to your religion. You're not a Muslim. Nobody here is a Catholic. Sneo is a Muslim. You're a Muslim and I'm a nonominational orthodox churches.
Speaker A
Churches of pedophilia. You can I'm not an Eastern Orthodox. I'm not an I need to do more research.
Speaker A
Okay. If what I read is true, then do you agree that the Catholic Church is of pedophilia?
Speaker A
If they condone having intercourse with prepubescent girls, then yeah, but I would also Let's get back to your religion that actually So if what I read Hold up, hold up, hold up. And you're also quoting like individuals, not not
Speaker A
the entire So no, no, don't cut me off. So if what I read is true, and it's found in Thomas Aquinas, the doctor of the church, it's also found back to the actual discussion. This is not the discussion. Nobody here's a Catholic.
Speaker A
Nobody here's a Catholic. You're arguing against nothing. You're terrified of me. You're not getting You're not getting You're not getting the point.
Speaker A
You're horrified of me. Yeah. I'm so terrified of you because you won't actually have the discussion.
Speaker A
I'm so I'm so I'm so terrified of your cute face, Cam. Thanks. Your beardless. So terrifying.
Speaker A
So anyway, I'm trying to but you keep manifesting and cutting me off every time.
Speaker A
I'm not I'm TRYING TO MAKE AN ARGUMENT. You won't let me say anything. Okay.
Speaker A
He said the quote. Let him shut up and let me make an argument. He said the quote he wanted to read.
Speaker A
I haven't finished. He hasn't finished his question. And to be fair, do what? Cam Cam, let's let's be fair for a second. Do you understand the analogy he's making? You're saying that you can't engage with Catholic doctrine because you're not a Catholic,
Speaker A
but you're not a Muslim. I'm making an internal critique of Islam. He lied, by the way. Oh, no. He's good though.
Speaker A
I'm making an internal critique. I'm I'm also making an internal critique, sir. You don't understand.
Speaker A
Okay. So, the point of a religion that nobody here follows. Let me finish, dude. Gosh, you've been talking Do you honestly believe I've made a single argument this entire I can't hear what you said. What did you say Chem?
Speaker A
Do you honestly believe that I've been able to make a single argument this entire time we've been talking?
Speaker A
You already made I I do. You You started off with the prerequisite. You started off with the terms of the debate. It was about child marriage. And to be fair, I maybe I'm biased, but I think the entire chat saw
Speaker A
him engage with all of it. There was a lot of interruptions there. There was some overt talking and it is getting aggressive. But to be completely fair, he engaged with every single verse you brought up. And when he's bringing up a
Speaker A
verse, who do you think? How much? Yo, can we stop debating about debating? You're saying that you're not you're not hearing. So, let's engage with the conversation because this is just meta debating. Look, Cam, let's just calm down, brother. Let me If
Speaker A
you don't understand, let me let me walk you through my point. Okay? The point I'm making is an inference to the best possible explanation. is the principle of the IBE. The inference of the best possible explanation is that of
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Christendom and all ecclesiastical authors and all bishops and all authorities of the church for the first two 1500,800 years of Christianity thought it was completely fine for a Christian girl to be married before the age of 12 then it is plausible to assume
Speaker A
that there is nothing about Christianity nor nothing about natural law that prohibits such a thing. It's called the inference of the best possible explanation. You don't have to be a Catholic. You don't have to be an Eastern Orthodox yourself. All you have
Speaker A
to be is a Christian because you share a tradition with Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. And because for for all the Stein, all the smartest theologians and all the ecclesiastical authors found no problem with a girl being under 12 and
Speaker A
having intercourse and being married. Then the inference of the best possible explanation is that there's nothing about Christian dogma and there's nothing in Christian text that prohibits it.
Speaker A
So I just want to get this straight. You think you think it's okay to have intercourse with 12-year-olds? Is that right?
Speaker A
I agree with the Bible. So yes, is that a yes? I agree with Jesus. Yeah.
Speaker A
Yes or no? Okay. So So you do think it's okay to have intercourse with nine-year-olds? Check this guy's hard drive.
Speaker A
I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to disprove you right now. I'm going to I'm going to pull up uh You accept Bkari.
Speaker A
How's he how's Bkari going to ar respond to my argument? Well, I'm not responding to that because that's not what the topic is. The topic is does not respond to my argument.
Speaker A
Why would you agree to this topic if you didn't even want to argue it?
Speaker A
So, he's not going to respond to the argument that I made. No, he's not going to respond.
Speaker A
So, before you read Bkari, I'm not he's not going to respect. So, we ask I'm a non-denominational Protestant. So, anyway, this is what Bari says. So if you go to volume 7 I'm not going to answer any question till you answer my
Speaker A
I'm not answering a question I'm asking question okay then we could just so bkari volume 7 chapter 39 he just said I'm not going to bkari yeah your argument about the topic that we're not discussing so he says the topic
Speaker A
we're discussing we're discussing whether child marriage is moral immoral whether Islam allows child marriage yeah exactly that's the topic you have a problem you have so you have a problem with gosh you have a problem with the Islamic view of
Speaker A
marriage. This is just ridiculous, bro. Like, this is really not a good look. He literally is manifesting.
Speaker A
Hold on. Hold on. Okay, this is off script for him. That's why. We have We have 20 minutes. Let's just One second.
Speaker A
He's responding to your claims. You're making it seem like I didn't even MAKE A CLAIM. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
Speaker A
Your claim was that Islam 654 allows child marriage. Cam, can I characterize it for you to to try to move this forward?
Speaker A
Yeah, it's an internal critique. I'm making an internal critique of Islam. I told you this, by the way.
Speaker A
So, internal. Oh, so you're saying Islam is uniquely responsible for allowing child marriage. Oh, I'm internally critiquing Islam as it is for allowing child marriage. Look at what Bkari says in volume 7 chapter 39. He says giving one's young children
Speaker A
in marriage is permissible. He says by virtue of the statement of Allah for those who have no monthly courses i.e.
Speaker A
they are still immature. This is talking about children. It says children. It says let me tell you what it you see I have to teach you. You're lying.
Speaker A
Let me Dude, he doesn't even want ME TO RESPOND TO THAT. You're lying. You're Let's let You cut me off. I wasn't even finished.
Speaker A
Let's Let's Let's see if I'm lying. You I You didn't even let me finish.
Speaker A
Gosh. You cut me off halfway through what I was saying. I was reading. You cut me halfway. You cut me off.
Speaker A
You ran away and he made You can You can make an argument if you just wait for me to finish speaking.
Speaker A
Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. God, you're such a [ __ ] Holy moly.
Speaker A
So, I I'll start from the top again. So volume 7 chapter 39 Bkari says giving one's young children in marriage is permissible by virtue of the statement of Allah and for those who have no monthly courses i.e they are still
Speaker A
immature. He cites uh surah 65 I4 the same one that I cited he says and the ida for the girl before puberty is 3 months in the above verse then he uh he he puts right below it in the connected
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paragraph sah bakkari 5133 narrated by Aisha that the prophet Muhammad married Aisha at the age of six and consummated the marriage at the age of nine and then she remained with him until his death for 9 years.
Speaker A
You done now? Okay. So, not only did he run away, but it's okay. I'm going to answer him. I'm going to be I'm going to be generous.
Speaker A
I'm going to answer him. Go into another another thing. Then I'm going to take him back to my argument. Okay. It doesn't say child. It says, which refers to young girls.
Speaker A
Okay. Okay. Now, you're equivocating. You already agreed with me. We're using very technical language here. You already conceded earlier.
Speaker A
No, I didn't. And you told me that a child You did. You said a child is a ch child a child a female that is is someone who's a female from birth till puberty not menarchy.
Speaker A
Yeah. So you already conceded. Let me finish. You already conceded that a girl before menarchy is not a child and therefore can be married and have consummation.
Speaker A
It's over. You already conceded that earlier. Liiano, could you read the highlighted words I just sent you?
Speaker A
Oh my god, I'm responding. You lied. You're lying. Read the highlighted words I just read this entire thing and I can't resol.
Speaker A
Fine. Go ahead. All right. Okay. Summarize it. So, just to summarize when Bkari there says that's what the Arabic says. Now, you're using an an English equivocal term which is child, right? But you already agreed that child in this debate
Speaker A
refers to somebody who's up until puberty, pubesence, not manarchy. So this is an equivocation fallacy which you already conceded this argument. Now please cam answer my question according to the inference of the best possible explanation. Can we make a
Speaker A
justified inference that Christianity and Christians have no problem with sleeping with girls under the age of 12?
Speaker A
Liviano, I just uh sent Sneo the words from the physical book that I read to you. They're Arabic words. Could you read them, please? And then tell me what they mean.
Speaker A
They're two highlighted words. Go read them. No, go ahead and read them. You're such a coward. Read the words.
Speaker A
Read the words. Tell me what they mean. Read it. You made a claim. You said that the word doesn't mean child. Read the words. Tell me what they mean.
Speaker A
Go ahead. Okay, that's fine. No, go ahead. Read the words. Cam Cam, I I'll read it. Put it on. Put Put on screen. I'LL READ I'LL READ IT.
Speaker A
READ IT. READ IT. LET'S hear it. Let's hear it. Let's hear it. I'll read it. No problem.
Speaker A
Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. Read it. And then Cam, please engage with the question. It sounds like Are you paying attention to the questions?
Speaker A
I'm not engaging with anything outside the topic. Go ahead. Read the words. You made a claim.
Speaker A
I'm not doing this. You're You're running away. Just admit it. He's not engaging. You're running away.
Speaker A
He's not paying attention. I'm not engaging with anything outside the topic. We agreed to a topic. If you're going to try to run away from that topic, I'll read it. I'll read Read the words, please. Go ahead.
Speaker A
Read it. Watch this. Cam, let's be fair. Let's engage in the conversation. WATCH THIS. EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. LOOK, what are the highlighted words?
Speaker A
Hey, which is exactly what I said. Now read what's on screen. Let me read. He just asked me to read it. He's reading it. Let me read it. And when I'm reading it, he's manifesting.
Speaker A
It translates directly to young children. By the way, well, he said the words highlighted there. If you there, everybody can see on the chat, right?
Speaker A
This is the chapter of I'll translate it. The chapter of the father marrying his young female children.
Speaker A
Yes. Thank you. Okay. So now let me let me let me finish. Let me finish. So when I say young female children there like my mom she has children. I'm her child. You understand?
Speaker A
But that doesn't mean that I'm prepubescent. So that's the English, right? So or refers to a young girl. That's it. It doesn't speak about her maturity or not.
Speaker A
Okay. So the in Islamic law can be married even before manarchy. There could be a contract. No problem. But pub but men or uh consummation has to do with marriageability. And I'll read you the quote from all the four schools, not
Speaker A
just the Madiki school. The entire four schools have a consensus agreement. What What does Kadir say? What does Kadir say?
Speaker A
Why don't you pull up Kadir step? That's not fair. You see, let's finish this and then we'll continue on to the next point.
Speaker A
Okay, let's You asked to read this and let's bring it up the schools of thought. Let's read the interpretation.
Speaker A
I've already read several schools, but go ahead. Let me let let me just pull it up. I had it here from Mosul where all the four schools make it very clear.
Speaker A
[clears throat] Uh hold on. Let me just pull it up right here. Otherwise, we're not engaging in a debate. You're just bringing up things that you disagree with and then Oh, it hasn't been a debate the whole time, Nico. Like, let's be real. This
Speaker A
guy is just spazzed out the entire time. I haven't been able to make any Yeah, I'm I'm spazzing. You're right, man.
Speaker A
You almost just ran off the the debate here. I got I got I got the quote right here brother. So this is from okay this is from the chapter the uh command or regarding the marriage of the young girl. Okay. What do they
Speaker A
say here? I got it right here. Watch this because it's in Arabic so I have to translate.
Speaker A
Oh, convenient. You're just lying. Why does like Sha like Shafi himself or what about just pop?
Speaker A
Can I finish? Can I read Can I read the quote? Sure. Go ahead. You asked You asked this to be read.
Speaker A
I didn't ask him for scholars. I did not ask for this to be read. Go ahead.
Speaker A
The translation, a young girl who is incapable of intercourse is not handed over to her husband for sexual enjoyment.
Speaker A
Yeah, this is by agreement of the four schools, the malikis, the doesn't break my argument because the standard is not based on age or maturity. It's based on physical capability and their um fistula not being ruptured. That's what the basis
Speaker A
now. Now what? Okay, good. We're making progress now. So, you agree that according to Islam, a girl cannot be consummated unless she could handle consummation right?
Speaker A
Unless she can be had sex with without like uh rupture. Yeah. Unless she could handle consummation, right?
Speaker A
Right. So, if I have a micro penis, it's fine, I guess. Okay. Micro penis.
Speaker A
Yeah. If if it doesn't cause harm or rupture, you can do it. Can you can you can you show me where the Quran says where the the scholars say if you have a micro penis you could have sex with a
Speaker A
girl who with a little girl? Yeah. Well, I mean specifically it says um Can you show me where it says that? If you have a micro Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy to. Yeah. So, let's pull up the Let me
Speaker A
just find I'm not going to let him get away with Let [clears throat] me just find the quote. So, specifically micro penis, but as long as you don't rupture or cause harm.
Speaker A
No, no, you said micro penis. I see him bring it up for us. That was a philosophical argument, dumb ass. Can you tell the difference? No, it's not a phil it's not a philosophical argument. This is called false.
Speaker A
This is an analogy that is false. It's false. But yeah, bring bring the bring the quote.
Speaker A
Yeah. Okay. So So this is Al Shafi himself. This is Al Shafi himself, you know, father of the Shafi school. He writes an alum. He says all of this applies when the wife has reached puberty or is approaching puberty.
Speaker A
Obviously approaching means has not hit it yet. Or is physically large such that one can endure intercourse. If she consummates the marriage and he has intercourse with her and penetrates her and it does not heal, he must pay her
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full blood money. She remains his wife in her original state and is entitled to full dowy. She has the right to refuse him intercourse until she recovers to a point where if he is to reenter, he would not cause further injury to the
Speaker A
wound. Then you have Aisha in sunn Abi Dawoud 3903. Uh remember, as long as she's phys physically large enough, my mother intended to make me gain weight to send me to the house of the messenger of Allah. But nothing which she desired
Speaker A
benefited me until she gave me cucumbers with fresh dates to eat. Then I gained so much weight as she desired. So why is I should be fattened up here? Because according to uh early scholars within the safi or within within the safad um
Speaker A
as long as you're large enough to have intercourse, as long as you're large enough to endure intercourse, you can uh Yeah.
Speaker A
What's that? The first three generations of the prophet. You mean the salaf? The salaf. Yes. Sorry.
Speaker A
Okay. So, so, so regardless, so as long as she's large enough that she can endure intercourse to setting the standard that as long as she's large enough to endure inter intercourse, even if she hasn't reached puberty, um, or
Speaker A
she's approaching puberty, as long as she's phys physically large enough that it won't rupture her fistula, you can have intercourse with her. So, if you have a micro penis, this would be acceptable because you don't actually cause harm. In fact, it doesn't even
Speaker A
say, El Shafi doesn't even write that it's a sin or that it's wrong to have intercourse with her if she ruptures. He just says you have to wait until she heals to have intercourse and try again.
Speaker A
Yeah, this guy's an idiot. Okay, so I'm gonna not say that. I'll sit it to you right now. I'll send you the book.
Speaker A
I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna I didn't say Ashafi didn't say that. You're with all due respect. So what's the argument against it?
Speaker A
I'm I'm about to tell you. So I'm going to answer this and he's going to go back to my argument, right?
Speaker A
Okay, Sneo, is that fair? And there were no interruptions. So let's let him respond.
Speaker A
Okay, cool. So he said according to you could if you have a small micro penis, you could have intercourse with a little girl who has no signs of pubescence. He hasn't showed that as long as you don't rupture.
Speaker A
All he showed, let me finish. All he showed is what I've said the whole entire time and he didn't know how to argue against it because he conceded long time ago.
Speaker A
No, I didn't. That a girl according to Islamic law because of the rule of nature if she shows signs and factors of pubesence which can include manarchy but doesn't need it's not a necessary condition.
Speaker A
Okay. Then she is marriageable. All Cam did today is he took one of the factors of marriageability such that a girl becomes marriageable when she can handle intercourse which interestingly is the same exact thing that Thomas Aquinas says the Catholic Church said when a
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girl reaches an age where she can handle intercourse that girl becomes marriageable. And this is according to Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic churches. Okay. So he just dug a hole deeper for himself. So yes, marriageability does include factors and signs of
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pubesence. And one of those factors of signs is that a woman is able to handle intercourse. If she is not able to handle intercourse and this shows that she is not pubescent but if she's able to handle intercourse and this shows
Speaker A
that she's pubescent alongside with other things like wet dreams which Ashaf mentions by the way pubic hair which and Malik and Imb Ahmed mentions as well with curve and the the curves and the forming of the breasts which all of the
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schools mention as well. And I literally just quoted him that the four schools do not allow a girl to be married before pubesence before the girl is marriageable before she's able to handle.
Speaker A
I just read you from the father of the shafi school. You're almost done. He's almost done. I want to hear your response.
Speaker A
I'm landing now. Since I gave this guy a free school on Islamic law, I need him to answer my question before the time ends. We all have five minutes. You you did spend to be you spent the entire time like
Speaker A
engaging with everything. Let's engage with one question. He did not spend the entire time engaging.
Speaker A
He he needs to now answer my question. He can't run away from it. According to the the according to the Christian church of the first 1800 years, a girl under the age of 12 is marriageable.
Speaker A
No. No, it's not. No. Okay, let's read. You're going to site some like random obscure person. I don't care. Like this is time for my closing. I have five minutes.
Speaker A
We're already over time himself. I'M GOING TO SITE documents and I'm going to let me finish. And I'm gonna site Liviano. I have a debate with Junior.
Speaker A
I've got to go fry Junior up. Okay. All right. Can you answer? Wait, wait, wait. Let's He wants to run away.
Speaker A
Are you really going to let him just like filibuster for the rest of the time? I ask Briefly before he asked you a question, can you quickly say one thing that he did not answer to be fair cuz I didn't hear anything.
Speaker A
He did not respond to my quote from Al Shafi. He didn't respond to anything from the Malaki school. In fact, in fact, I cited the Maliki school and then he ignored it and said that all schools prohibit having intercourse with
Speaker A
children. I asked him in the very beginning. I asked him if he thinks it's right now. Right now, how about right now? He's cutting me off.
Speaker A
I have to leave. I have a debate with Junior. Don't run. No, no, no. He said even after seven for a little bit. He said, right? He said that right. No, I said before 7. I said a little bit before 7.
Speaker A
JUNIOR JUST TEXTING ME. HE SAID IT'S OKAY. 10 minutes is You're lying. Junior literally told me that he wanted me to debate at 7:30.
Speaker A
He said I'll be there 7:20. That's Junior right here. Don't let him run. Tell him I'll be there 7:20. Don't worry, Habibi. You're good. Don't run.
Speaker A
Bro, you guys are hilarious. I'm not engaging with anything outside the topic. Wait, hold on. I'm going to ask the chat. There's 6,000 people watching.
Speaker A
There's 6,000 people watching. Did Leaniano type a one if Leaniano did not did not engage with any of the questions.
Speaker A
Wait, you're a Muslim streamer. Of course, your chat is going to be biased. Okay. No, my chat they even streamer. Of course they watch you. Of course they're going to agree with your side.
Speaker A
Sometimes they vote me wrong. Sometimes they say that I lose the base. I have a very they were, you know, they vote 70% on they literally wouldn't even engage with the establishing questions I open I asked in the opening statement. You
Speaker A
already conceded the debate 10 minutes. No, I didn't. No, I didn't. You conceded everything 10 minutes question. So, so now answer my question.
Speaker A
According according to Tortullian, according to origin, according to Tertullian, according to origin of Alexandria, according to Thomas Aquinus, according to the Catholic Church, and according to the Eastern Orthodox Church, a girl is marriageable.
Speaker A
If she can handle, I'm not answering questions on topic. on topic. Leiano, why are you so afraid to talk about your topic?
Speaker A
It's over, Cam. It's over, bro. Are you're not going to engage? I'm not going to engage with top with questions outside of the topic now.
Speaker A
All right. No, it's not outside the topic, but it's outside. It's over. You lost.
Speaker A
Okay. I lost. Fine. Self-declared victor over here. The [ __ ] self-declared victor. You said the topic of the debate. Hold on. You said the topic of the debate was child marriage and Islam.
Speaker A
No, no, no, no, Sne. We talked about this. The topic was does Islam condone child marriage? That was the topic.
Speaker A
Okay. And you're coming from and my and No, I'm not. It's an internal critique.
Speaker A
I'm not making any Christian prescriptions. And my answer and my answer was no, which he conceded 654 doesn't. No.
Speaker A
Okay. Which he conceded that. No, I didn't. And and I said no. And to give a consistency argument, something called a consistency argument.
Speaker A
It's an internal person arguing against Let me What is an internal critique? When the person shut up. The person is arguing against you.
Speaker A
This consistency must be shown in his own worldview. So we are in topic. I'm making an internal critique, dumbass.
Speaker A
I know. And you failed. Can you tell me what what is an internal critique? Go ahead. Tell me. Is a Catholic church a church of pedophilia?
Speaker A
Yes or no? Catholic. I'm not a Catholic. You don't need to be a Catholic.
Speaker A
You just said it's an argument from consistency. I'm not a Catholic. Is the Catholic Church a church of pedophilia? Yes or no?
Speaker A
Bro has a jar on his head. You're an idiot. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker A
The Catholic Church of Church. We need that answer. Cam, did you see how I don't know enough about Catholicism. I don't study Catholicism.
Speaker A
Okay. I just read the quote for him. Cam, do you see how it doesn't That quote is not emblematic of the entire religion.
Speaker A
Cam, you're Yes, it is. I could I could give you church documents if you want.
Speaker A
You want church documents? It's emblematic of the entire religion. You want church documents? You want the Vatican? You want the No, bro. I want you to stay on topic.
Speaker A
That's all I want. Okay. He doesn't want You want to know? He's a white nationalist pig. He doesn't want to condone. He doesn't want to condemn the Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Church because he knows he can't.
Speaker A
I'm not a Catholic. He can't call them pedophiles. He can't. You don't need to be. It's an inference of the best possible explanation. If he condemns them as as pedophiles, he's condemning entire history of Christendom as pedophilia.
Speaker A
Dude, he can't do it. He would have to say every single ecclesiastical author was a pedophile up until 200 years ago.
Speaker A
This is why he can't do it. Nico is the Catholic Church upon pedophilia. Cam Higgby, he's going to say he's not I don't study Catholicism.
Speaker A
You're also not a Muslim and you have strong opinions about I study Islam. I don't study Catholicism.
Speaker A
I read the quote for you. Okay. I don't study Catholicism. It's not emblematically. You don't need to study IT. THE QUOTE IS CLEAR. IT'S UNAMBIGUOUS.
Speaker A
BRO, it's what? I cited you several scholars and you all said Islam still doesn't condone child marriage. Do you see how that works?
Speaker A
No, it can't. It can't. Like if I cite you one Islamic scholar, does that mean you're wrong? Because I've cited you at least five cringe. You responded to every single I don't care about Catholicism. I'm not a Catholic. I don't study Catholicism.
Speaker A
Irrelevant to me. I because I think it's bad and I study it. I've spent time studying it. I haven't spent any time studying Catholicism. So why would I make prescriptions about it or descriptions?
Speaker A
Catholicism is guilty of the same pedophilia that you claim Islam is guilty of. I don't know because I don't study Catholicism. If it did, then I then I would be upset about it.
Speaker A
You're you're you're turning your refusing to. So, so did I cite scholars during this discussion?
Speaker A
Yes or no? Yes. Okay. So, do you agree that at least one of those scholars I cited agree with me?
Speaker A
Silence your mouth. Sneo, do you agree that at least one of those scholars that I cited agrees with me?
Speaker A
If you're going to answer, you can just leave bro. Sne agree that at least one of the scholars I cited agrees with me.
Speaker A
I didn't see any sort of I think he refuted the claim. Sorry, let me let me let me read it again. No, he didn't refute anything about Alafi. He didn't he did not refute Al Shafi.
Speaker A
Ask me a question. I cited Al Shafi in his book where he says all this applies when the wife has reached puberty or is approaching puberty or is physically large that she can endure intercourse. Just because I have one scholar that agrees with me
Speaker A
does not mean it's implatic of the entire religion. That's exactly what he's trying to do. It's a fallacy.
Speaker A
He doesn't agree with you. That's the point. I already refute it. Is Thomas Aquinus a pedophile?
Speaker A
I don't I don't study Thomas Aquinus. Neither is Thomas Aquinus is not reflective of the entire Catholic Church.
Speaker A
What I read if what I read if what I read actually exists in Thomas Aquinus is not binding to the entire Catholic church.
Speaker A
I didn't say he's b I didn't say binding or anything. I asked you if what I read is in his suma as I read it. Would you say would you agree that he's a pedophile?
Speaker A
I I I don't know enough about Thomas Aquinus what you're saying. Is he I said if if what I read is there is he a pedophile?
Speaker A
I wasn't even listening to what you were reading. Maybe, but again, Thomas Aquinus isn't binding to the entire Catholic Church when it comes to the debate.
Speaker A
I can What's the point of having this discussion if you're not going to engage in the because it's outside the topic. It's irrelevant. I had an internal critique of the argument. It's a consistency.
Speaker A
Liiano, what's internal critique? Could you define that for me? Internal critique. What is an internal critique is taking on the presuppositions of a person and finding an internal incoherence or cont.
Speaker A
Okay. So, would my personal morals matter in an internal critique? You literally just got mine, dude. So now what's a consistency argument?
Speaker A
Well, a consistency argument doesn't apply to an internal critique because I'm not using my morals. I'm using yours.
Speaker A
What is What is it? You I just defined something for you. Define argument. It's when you try to take somebody's logic or morals and find things like a like you find a reductio in their logic that makes them contradict themselves.
Speaker A
But I'm having an internal I'm doing an internal critique of you. You're such an idiot. You're doing I'm doing an internal critique of you which uses your morals, not mine. [ __ ] idiot.
Speaker A
Thank you. Thank you. You just admitted a makes argument. So now is Thomas Aquinus a pedophile.
Speaker A
Catholic. So the argument of consistency doesn't work. I'm using your morals. You don't need to be a Catholic to know or not.
Speaker A
You don't need to be a Catholic if to know whether he's a I'm going to debate Junior. Gentlemen, have a nice I'll be honest. I'm pretty disappointed.
Speaker A
See you later, boy. I've got to go debate Junior. What else did you expect? I what else did you expect?
Speaker A
You're right. I what what should I have expected from two Muslims uh in a Muslim moderating the panel? I' I've actually seen you in the past, Nico, and I was actually I actually believed you would be fair.
Speaker A
Damn, damn. Damn, damn. Damn. He did respond to everything he brought up. AND WHEN HE'S BRINGING UP QUOTES, YES, he did. He literally did.
Speaker A
He didn't respond to anything. When he's bringing up quotes, YOU SAYING I'M NOT LISTENING. You You literally not listening to his responses.
Speaker A
Bringing up Thomas Aquinus is not a response to Al Shuffy. It's a consistency argument. I just told you you find it.
Speaker A
All right, boys. Have a good day. You just find it. Oh my gosh. What a bunch of idiots.
Speaker A
Holy smokes, bro. Man, that that was one of the dumbest debates I've ever heard. His whole tactic was just talk a lot so that I can't talk or make arguments. I hope Junior's a little bit more respectful, but his whole entire tactic was just
Speaker A
talk so that I can't talk and then when I cite something, respond to something totally different. Pivot and run away from the conversation.
Speaker A
He brought up a fake quote. Yeah, I'm not surprised. But again, I don't study Catholic doctrine, so I'd have no way of knowing if he was telling the truth or not. Right. But if we're both talking about Islam, like he studies Islam, I
Speaker A
study Islam, we can both challenge each other accurately on whether or not things are true. But he never contested whether al- Shafi said all of this applies when a wife has reached pub a wife has reached puberty or is
Speaker A
approaching puberty. Somebody who's already married is approaching puberty or is physically large such such as that she can endure intercourse. Okay. He never contested this quote and he said that all four schools of Sunni Islam condemn marrying children uh before
Speaker A
puberty and having intercourse with them. But this one doesn't. It talks about intercourse when a girl is approaching puberty or she's physically large such that one like her can endure intercourse. He never contested the validity of this quote and that's
Speaker A
because it comes from alafi is alum. It's a direct it's a direct quote from the father of the of the shafi school.
Speaker A
He wouldn't contest this. He's a a malaki, right? Did he contest any of the quotes that I gave him from his own school of thought? No, he didn't.
Speaker A
So he's a he's a maliki. And so I cited um Abu Bakr Iban Alabi where he conceds that Quran 654 refers to young girls not yet reached the age of puberty. I cited to him.
Topics:child marriageIslamQuran 65:4debatemenarchepubertyhadithAishaCam Higbyreligious debate
