Thomas Frank on 2024 Trump LANDSLIDE, Democrats' Working Class COLLAPSE, and More

Thomas Frank discusses the 2024 Trump landslide, Democrats' working-class collapse, and political dynamics reshaping America.

Key Takeaways

Democrats have struggled to decode Trump's broad appeal despite having expert resources.
The working-class collapse within the Democratic base is a critical factor in recent elections.
Thomas Frank's books challenge liberal orthodoxies and have alienated some audiences.
Political realignment may continue until parties switch social positions or new movements emerge.
Effective political change requires confronting uncomfortable truths about party failures.

What the video covers

Thomas Frank returns to discuss his influential books and political analysis.
The conversation covers historical and cultural topics, including mob history and urban gentrification.
Frank reflects on his strained relationship with liberal audiences after his critical books.
He critiques the Democratic Party's failure to understand Trump's appeal despite years of opportunity.
The discussion highlights the sociological and political shifts leading to Trumpism's rise.
Frank explores the Democrats' disconnect from working-class voters and the party's elite composition.
They debate potential left-wing strategies, including third-party options and party reform.
The conversation touches on political polarization, race, and economic issues influencing elections.
Frank shares insights on political messaging, voter behavior, and the challenges facing progressives.
The interview concludes with reflections on recent political developments and future prospects.

Chapters

What is Thomas Frank's main critique of the Democratic Party?

Frank argues that the Democratic Party, dominated by highly educated elites, has failed to understand and connect with Trump's broad appeal, especially among working-class voters.

How does Thomas Frank describe the political realignment in the US?

He suggests that the parties may continue shifting socially and politically until they effectively switch their social bases, potentially leading to a world dominated by Trumpism if Democrats do not adapt.

What role do Frank's books play in his political analysis?

Frank's books, such as Listen, Liberal and What's the Matter with Kansas, critically examine liberal politics and working-class dynamics, though they have sometimes alienated liberal audiences due to their blunt critiques.

Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

Speaker A

All right, everybody, we are thrilled to welcome back to the show columnist, author of such landmark books for the people in this space: Listen, Liberal; What's the Matter with Kansas; and most recently, The People Know. Your returning guest on this program, Thomas Frank.

Speaker A

Thanks for being here, Thomas. Gentlemen, how are you doing today? I'm trying to read the titles on the books on your shelves.

Speaker A

Oh yeah, I mean, I recognize some of them. You both have that book Shattered about the Hillary, the Hillary Clinton campaign.

Speaker A

I, me, I've got that one too. I've got that one too.

Speaker A

Yeah, Co, we should all privilege it. What I really wanted to have as my set was a copy of this facing the camera and then a framed portrait of Susan Sarandon right under it, and that's it. Nothing else, no other books at all. But that would have been too on the nose to have it the background for every single segment of every single show.

Speaker A

All right, so you know, we also both have—

Speaker A

We also both have Five Families.

Speaker A

Yes, both have Five Families, the big Mafia history opus.

Speaker A

Oh, I don't, I haven't read that one.

Speaker A

If you're into mob history, it's the most comprehensive book ever written on the American mob.

Speaker A

Is that right? So, I'm actually not into mob history. I only know one fact.

Speaker A

What's that?

Speaker A

So the last big gang war in America was in Kansas City when I was a kid. Do you guys know about this?

Speaker A

Well, I know Kansas City is a big hub. I don't know what specifically it was.

Speaker A

It's all over now, but there was a neighborhood called the River Quay down—well, they've changed the name now, but anyhow, there's been these efforts over the years to revitalize it. This is one of the first sort of, what do you call it, like a rebranding. It's not urban renewal, but they were gentrifying.

Speaker A

Gentrification.

Speaker A

So the first one in the Midwest was in Chicago in River North, and some people in Kansas City said, "Well, let's do that with this neighborhood down by the river," and they did, and it was a big success.

Speaker A

And my family and I, this was in the mid-70s, my family and I, we'd go down there every weekend, and it was a lot of fun. They also had a lot of bars and restaurants and this kind of thing.

Speaker A

Then one day, one of these restaurants blew up, really, with dynamite.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker A

And then there was some retaliatory dynamiting, and then people started shooting each other. It was nuts.

Speaker A

Now, of course, none of us, we didn't see any of that. It was just in the newspaper, but yeah, it was famous.

Speaker A

And my only connection, I was just a child, right, so I didn't really know what was going on, but I was one of those children who collects everything, and I collected matchbooks, and so I have matchbooks from all the places that were destroyed.

Speaker A

Really?

Speaker A

Yeah, in this fight that they had.

Speaker A

Should sell it to the Mob Museum in Vegas.

Speaker A

They take—yeah, there you go.

Speaker A

All right, so you know how we can tell how discomforted the liberal class is by this election result? They let you back in print in America.

Speaker A

Oh yeah, how about that? Wasn't that something?

Speaker A

But I kind of, when I was researching for the interview, I was shocked, shocked to find that they let you back in the hallowed pages of the New York Times.

Speaker A

Yeah, of all places.

Speaker A

So it's a lot of this is my own fault. I've been working on a book for the last couple of years. Book ornithology, right?

Speaker A

Close.

Speaker A

How did you know that?

Speaker A

No, it's about a history of creativity, but it actually turns out, once you start digging, it turns out to be a really interesting subject. But it's not like political, except for—I mean, it is, of course, everything I write is.

Speaker A

Right, right, right.

Speaker A

But it's not political except for in a sort of roundabout way.

Speaker A

And somebody keeps rearranging my shelves here.

Speaker A

You know, I—well, whatever.

Speaker A

We're not sure.

Speaker A

Yeah, prowlers. They come in the house in the middle of the night.

Speaker A

No, and that's how the Manson family started out, rearranging people's shelves.

Speaker A

Any—

Speaker A

So it's my own fault. Creepy crawling. They would go into people's houses, rearrange all the furniture just to freak them out when they wake up.

Speaker A

Really?

Speaker A

Yeah, that was how they rehearsed for murder.

Speaker A

Yeah, huh. They were doing that first. Wow. So watch out.

Speaker A

Okay. And do you have Helter Skelter on your shelf there?

Speaker A

I—that's in the other room. I'm just teasing you.

Speaker A

So I've been working on this book, and so as a result, I haven't done anything political. I was sort of trying my best to get away from it.

Speaker A

But I mean, back to your point, yes, I mean, the reason I'm trying to get away from it is there's this sense of frustration.

Speaker A

You know, I just couldn't get anywhere after Listen, Liberal. It just sort of ruined my, my, my rapport with, well, with liberals.

Speaker A

Imagine that. I wrote a book called Listen, Liberal with a big pointing finger on the cover.

Speaker A

Well, the last thing you should tell a liberal to do is to listen.

Speaker A

Yeah, that—that, well, after What's the Matter with Kansas—

Speaker A

Oh no, they liked that one, but they rarely made it to the chapter that was about them.

Speaker A

Right, so there is a chapter about, like, the—it's towards the end of What's the Matter with Kansas, and then Listen, Liberal basically took that chapter and made it into a whole book.

Speaker A

And so yeah, it's in there. They just never—they never got that far. Most people don't get past the title.

Speaker A

Just between you and me, they read the title and they're like, "Huh, that's—"

Speaker A

Yeah, there is something wrong with that place. It's really flat.

Speaker A

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A

We discovered the first time we interviewed Norman Finkelstein, and he was so insistent that we hadn't read his book, and we had actually.

Speaker A

We realized most people who do this don't read the book.

Speaker A

Yeah, that's why he was so firm in that expectation that we had not.

Speaker A

Yes, and a lot of authors sort of proceed on the strategy that they'll give away the whole argument of the book in the first page or so, and then you know what it's all about.

Speaker A

But I don't do that. You have to read the whole book to get it. The first page is just the introduction.

Speaker A

And what I find is that people read the first page, and it has some—it has a really, of What's the Matter with Kansas, the first page has a really good account of—not good, but it talks about a county, the poorest county in America at the time, voting for George W. Bush, and then goes from there.

Speaker A

And people think that's it. That's the argument of the book, and in fact, that's just the start of it.

Speaker A

Right, and that's why they liked you.

Speaker A

All right, so let's take a look at this. This is pretty classic Thomas Frank analysis. You're op-ed in the New York Times. You say liberals had nine years to decipher Mr. Trump's appeal, and they failed.

Speaker A

The Democrats are a party of college graduates, as the whole world understands by now, of PhDs and genius grant winners and the best consultants money can buy.

Speaker A

Mr. Trump is a con man straight out of Mark Twain. He will say anything, promise anything, do nothing.

Speaker A

But his movement baffled the party of education and innovation. Their most brilliant minds couldn't figure him out.

Speaker A

I've been writing about these things for 20 years, and I began to doubt that any combination of financial disaster or electoral chastisement will ever turn on the white bulb for the liberals.

Speaker A

I fear that '90s-style centrism will march on by a sociological force of its own until the parties have entirely switched their social positions and the world has given over to Trumpism.

Speaker A

Now, I—yeah, I agree with that. I think the world—I wrote that.

Speaker A

All right, I actually went a little farther than that. So what does the left do at that point? Because I agree with you. Seems like the Democratic Party is just never going to wake up. Do they go third party like the populace that you describe in your last book, The People Know?

Speaker A

in the face for them to to uh to admit that this is happening would mean for them to go back to their own Triumph Hill the Triumph of Hill Hillary's generation the Triumph of Hillary's social class and to say that was all a

Speaker A

mistake yeah yeah that's a good point uh there's a the generational aspect to it yeah that guy's good that guy he is he's right I don't know I don't know about his uh now it's even more absurd because

Speaker A

at the time that you were doing that interview it was really about the white working class right and they could somewhat plausibly attack that now we're all white supremacists now yeah now they're attacking the whole working class as white supremacist

Speaker A

because they don't know how to deal with the fact that he made these inrs with Latinos easy figure it out you know it's but so when I I when I wrote that in what's the matter with Kansas I said

Speaker A

it's you can look in the last page of the book I said this is going to extend to other demographics this is not where it stops this is where it starts and uh uh you know that felt obvious to me at

Speaker A

the time you know that but but they've insisted on misunderstanding it again for reasons of their own that for reasons that are very flattering to themselves basically you can take whatever is the interpretation that is going to make the Democrats feel most

Speaker A

like um heroes or or no you know uh really good people really Noble that's that's the um that's the explanation they're going to use whether whether it describes reality or not it it makes them feel good and so that's but that

Speaker A

thing about the generations I had forgotten that argument that's actually a really uh an important part of it because the the overturning of we talked about the overturning of the uh New Deal Democrats the Great Society Democrats it

Speaker A

was a generational story and uh one thing we know I mean I don't know if there's a social science term for it but people never betray their betrayals okay once you do something like that once you turn the Democratic

Speaker A

party which these guys did in the 1970s Once you turn on the Democratic party and say we've had enough of organized labor and we've had enough of the party of the new deal and all that you're never going back that is your that is

Speaker A

what you did as a generation it is your accomplishment and they they will never I mean they're psychologically incapable of saying oh we were wrong our great moment as a generation was a mistake that's that's no human can do

Speaker A

that so okay K I mean maybe maybe they can but but no no movement can do that yeah so I want to show you this um this are you guys just going to keep burning me are you g to keep showing me

Speaker A

my old footage it's like okay explain yourself Frank that is the only old footage of viers that's the only old footage I I have a guy here Chris Murphy obviously senator from uh Connecticut uh he put out a big tweet thread uh in

Speaker A

response to this Trump victory that was a cataclysm electoral map Wipeout Senate dem's practically a practical ceiling is Now 52 seats Republicans is 62 time to rebuild the left I love how he he acts as if he speaks for the left in this in

Speaker A

this threat right as if the Democrats have not sabotaged the left for the last you know uh 40 years uh we are out of touch with the crisis of meaning purpose fueling Maga we refuse to pick big fights our tent is too small some early

Speaker A

thoughts this goes by fairly quickly hey but that's he's actually not wrong about this you know I mean look at this no I mean not necessarily uh it's it's unfortunately about 10 years too late which I'll get to uh the left has never

Speaker A

fully grappled with the wreckage of 50 years of neoliberalism which has left Legions of Americans a drift as local places are hollowed out rapacious profit seeking cannibalizes the common good and uncheck new technology separates that is correct and isolates

Speaker A

of course uh the things that mattered are disappearing we spent half as much time with friends as a generation ago hard work no longer guarantees economic Mobility institutions like churches are delegitimized place-based identity evaporates as we all become Global

Speaker A

Citizens now that's kind of interesting because that's really the Trump critique uh that sort of like the anti-globalism which is giving a no do you remember that that was the word globalization was one of the sort of keywords in this

Speaker A

transformation of the democratic party that was Clinton was was uniquely attuned Bill Clinton would say he was uniquely attuned to globalism to globalization it was it was really annoying at the time I I'm older than you guys but it was it was

Speaker A

annoying back sorry my allowed to curse we're we're kind of known for it Thomas yeah it was annoying at the time and and and now looking back and they're like oh man I really regret that yeah no it's amazing

Speaker A

well this I mean it goes on the left skips past the way people are feeling alone impotent impotent I mean yeah TMI there Chris overwhelmed and straight to uninspiring Solutions more roads bulk drug purchasing that do little to

Speaker A

actually upset the status quo of who has power and who doesn't does racism explain part of the attraction of the rights nativism of course but Mass deportation is a parenthesis terrible he's even adopting the Trump manner of his his tweet game just random parth

Speaker A

yeah terrible response to Americans real sense they are helpless in the face of global forces like increased migration the left largely ignores this pain we don't listen enough we tell people what's good for them I love this part

Speaker A

and when progressives Like Bernie aggressively go after the elites that hold people down they are shunned as dangerous populists shunned by who shunned by who this this reads a lot like Gaza School explodes right is like really expl who who bomb the school why

Speaker A

maybe because true economic populism is bad for our high income base oh surprise surprise yeah yeah grinding teeth Emoji meanwhile men tumble into a different kind of identity crisis as the patriarchy society's primary organizing Paradigm for centuries rightly crashes

Speaker A

the right pushes an alluring dial back the left says get over it again a refusal to listen offer responsible Solutions we cannot be afraid of fights especially with economic Elites who have profited off neoliberalism like the ones who sign our

Speaker A

checks the right regularly picks fights with Elites Hollywood higher red Etc Democrats EG the Harris campaign are tepid in our fights with billionaires and corporations real economic populism should be our tent pole there you go that's what Thomas Frank wrote A Few

Speaker A

books about that but here's the thing then you need to let people into the tent who aren't 100% on board with us on every social and cultural issue yeah yes or issues like guns or climate those are hard things for the left a firm break

Speaker A

with neoliberalism listen to poor and Rural people men in crisis don't decide for them pick fights Embrace populism build a big tent be less judgmental but we are Beyond small fixes so I tweeted out a response to this that the Bernie

Speaker A

Sanders campaigns addressed all of these points and they were deliberately destroyed by people like you Chris Murphy who are just now realizing how wrong you were 10 years too late maybe a formal apology is in order as long as

Speaker A

you're reflecting I think one of the opportunities of a trump Victory and like I said I think you were right at your most depressed and Thomas you may remember uh my moment at perhaps my most depressed was when we first interviewed

Speaker A

you uh and and I screamed that uh you know this the Liberals the whole country that was one of the most quotable lines that people like to read back yeah but wait a minute hey now you've got me on the now I'm going to I

Speaker A

I want exactly why we want back you can you can be the pessimist and I'll be The Optimist ex hey that's a good that's a good sign that that I don't so I don't know anything about Chris Murphy uh and

Speaker A

it's annoying that he refers to the Democrats as the left but whatever you know I'm willing to overlook that and I and there's also you know like that thing about about um masculinity I don't know where that that comes from that one

Speaker A

has not you know but whatever I I'm look brush all that by I'm so I mean that's really refreshing that in uh uh you know that that a guy like like him has understood all this that's that's actually really that's good that's I I

Speaker A

think it's good to have these people on record admitting defeat I I don't like I said I I agree with you in your darkest moment of not having any hope for the Democrats as a reformable entity but I

Speaker A

do think it's good having these pieces of garbage quite frankly on record admitting that they were wrong and I think this could be potentially a flex for a movement that has certainly run its course I mean Bernie Sanders wants

Speaker A

to come out now and and talk about how the Democrats have screwed workers he spent this entire campaign season touting Biden as the most Progressive president since FDR so I mean you take that for what it's worth but what it is

Speaker A

worth is an on the record admission that this what started as a Bernie movement largely at least nine years ago was right all along I think it is good on record people like him that would be a uh that would be a nice gesture by by

Speaker A

this guy and by all the other people who are who who are coming around but they probably won't do it and you just have to you have to be willing to you know you have to be willing to to to take

Speaker A

victories where you find them put it in your pocket and keep moving it's it's a uh you know can I tell you a funny oh it's not funny it's kind of awful but the moment when I knew Biden was out

Speaker A

remember he had that awful debate performance and everybody was was talking about how he had to go and uh and for a while it looked like Biden was going to hang tough and refuse to uh withdraw and the moment I knew he was

Speaker A

done was when uh Bernie wrote that oped in the New York Times saying Biden has to stay and I knew I knew B was because Bernie never gets what he wants it never gets what he wants yeah exactly all right so so something I'm

Speaker A

seeing not not not that's a really good sign by the way you've made my day I I I thank you guys so I don't follow things like that so I didn't know about that that's that's great that they're that

Speaker A

they're actually uh uh showing some introspection that's this first time though they they had they do have a tendency even after 2016 for a minute they do a little soul searching oh but then that's right I remember that now

Speaker A

and that was uh they had Bernie making the rounds and and giving his insights and then they on and they blamed it on him and they blamed it on the Russians you remember that is already out there saying that she doesn't appreciate

Speaker A

Bernie saying the Democrats abandoned workers look they are a party of capital I think they will remain a party of capital until they are dismantled that's my ultimate position on in terms of the broader conversation though I think

Speaker A

what's obvious about the 2024 result is that 2016 was not a fluke 2016 was the canary and the coal mine and that 2020 was the fluke because of the pandemic uh this really pretty much proved that that realignment is if not permanent at least

Speaker A

lasting and Lasting for a long long long time to the point where I don't think the Democrats are a viable National party anymore I don't think they can recover from this this is not a situation where we won the popular vote

Speaker A

but we we blew it in Michigan by 10,000 Wisconsin 20,000 no this was pretty sweeping this was pretty sweeping because not only did you abandon workers but the Republicans reoriented themselves such that they could take advantage of that and scoop them up and

Speaker A

it's going to take a very long time to to have this to have another realignment like this I think yes and I I mean I hope I hope that you're wrong because I don't think Trump is going to

Speaker A

do anything for for people but um I I suspect that look I we this is all we talk about here in my house the the last week all of my my friends and I this is all that we talk about and I get all

Speaker A

sorts of different points of view and people remind me you know and I don't know how you guys feel about this but I I can guess but that Biden did take uh the way I always put it is Biden took

Speaker A

baby steps in the right direction on this stuff uh on very early on very early on he they just they just he went broke a Railroad Strike yes he did so but he also was uh he was you know very

Speaker A

pro-union which we haven't seen in a Democrat since Johnson you know and he uh what's the third one well yeah all the massive spending bills uh but the um the antitrust stuff really I mean it's it's by no means enough to win an

Speaker A

election it's not even it's not even close it didn't even and they the Democrats didn't even mention it at their convention I was at by the way I went to their convention again wrote about it for for a French newspaper but

Speaker A

uh uh like they won this Monumental lawsuit against Google as a you know an antitrust suit they didn't even bring it up you know it's like well it doesn't we're not going to keep pounding on what what you know they they didn't tout a

Speaker A

lot of I mean they they didn't tout anything you had minimum wage proposals pass in deep red States KLA never mentioned the minimum wage once in the campaign yep now that and that's that in my view that killed her that was she had

Speaker A

uh now let's just to be uh uh to try to say nice things about the Democrats here she has this she has the skills I was very skeptical when they chose her but I was I was impressed by her ability you

Speaker A

know you saw her in the debate with Trump she was very good the problem is there were only two issues that she cared about one was abortion the other was was Trump's uh threat quote unquote threat to democracy right

Speaker A

and um she the thing is and she did a excellent job explaining those things it's just those are so abortion that's a strong issue right that was real strong for them I think that was their you know like the number two or number three

Speaker A

issue for the for the public but it wasn't enough she's got to be able to explain like you know the good things that Biden was doing and show some determination to keep going down that road she made and she made zero as far

Speaker A

as I can tell zero effort to do that uh once the convention was over you never heard about it again uh and you know not everybody was at anyhow it doesn't matter yes they uh they blew it uh

Speaker A

massively I I don't know how they come back after something like this except for I actually I do know we both we all know how they come back they come back when when Trump screws it up but will he

Speaker A

right they're counting on that but will he I mean who knows he he the first time around he was so incompetent but uh I think he's not going to make that same mistake uh twice what do you time he

Speaker A

didn't have a mandate from workingclass people the way he does now I mean now he does if they were smart they would raise the minimum wage if the Republicans rais the minimum wage now that would be it for the Democrats done what if what if

Speaker A

Trump got universal healthcare he's not going to do that but minimum wage look red states are getting close to $15 an hour now so if you're the Republicans you're saying hey if we raise the minimum wage if we bring that build to a

Speaker A

vote the Democrats have to vote for it they can't not vote for it we get a few we whip a few GOP into voting for it even if we don't get our whole caucus to vote for it we get a few of them to vote

Speaker A

for it now Trump passes a $15 minimum wage after winning voters who make under 50 Grand a year that's it the Democrats done yeah done wait there's a it'd be triangulation in Reverse well yeah ex it's to that's totally what what we're

Speaker A

describing here that's that's what the JD Vance speech was you know it wase so you know I don't have a lot of high hopes for uh uh for JD Vance but but but godamn I mean look Democrats look at

Speaker A

what he just did he just uh he just you know kicked your ass for all of the betrayals that you have done over the years I love that he tried to blame the Iraq War on Democrats I mean it's just okay that

Speaker A

that is a perfect segue to another part of your outad where you talk about JD Vance in comparison with perhaps the principal villain of listen liberal which I would say is Barack Obama along with Bill Clinton uh today Mr Vance is

Speaker A

the vice president El and what I hope you will understand what I want you to mull over and take to heart and remember for the rest of your life is that he got there by mimicking the language that

Speaker A

Americans used to associate with labor with liberals with Democrats by comparison here is Barack Obama in 2016 describing to Bloomberg Business Week his affinity for the private sector quote just to bring things full circle about Innovation the conversations I

Speaker A

have with Silicon Valley and with Venture Capital pull together my interests in science and organization in a way I find really satisfying I hope that was so it made me so angry that that quote I'm reading it made me angry

Speaker A

I I hope Mr Obama finds his silicon satisfaction I hope the men of capital whose Banks he bailed out during the financial crisis show a little gratitude and build him the biggest most expensive most Innovative Presidential Library of

Speaker A

the mall but his party is in Ruins today without a leader and without a purpose now this might bring you some satisfaction but his biographer says that Obama at this point is worried that his legacy is destroyed and there's a

Speaker A

lot of speculation that he's going to become kind of a Bill Clinton that they Tred out here and there but kind of keeping the background who's not going to really have that leadership role in the party anymore and part of the reason

Speaker A

for that is perhaps moments like this yeah um we have not yet seen the same kinds of energy and turnout in all quarters of our neighborhoods and communities as we saw when I was running now I also want to say that that seems

Speaker A

to be more pronounced with the brothers yeah that was not that was not well received by the community so do you think this is the end of Obama's influence do you think no of course not ex president he's you know uh no but uh

Speaker A

I I just I want to draw your attention to those remarks that he made because this uh this tendency to scold it's there's nothing more indicative of you know the modern day Democratic party than their love of scolding or mod I should say modern day

Speaker A

liberalism this is there's a whole chapter about that in um my last book and the people know remember those yard sign I mean remember after oh my God uh when Trump was president the first time around the the scolding became like a

Speaker A

whole literary genre right they should give up pet Sur prises for it you know for uh people that write the best scolding essay the most uh the most most intolerant scolding and and it's just like what is like I mean where

Speaker A

did these guys learn about how to do politics you know that is just not what you do but anyhow that's that is their they always fall back on that like why don't you live up to me you know I'm

Speaker A

such I'm such a good person Can't You See It Well I think it's because they're they're an aristocracy and they have the point of view of an aristocracy if you look at their entire project been built around the assumption that they have a right to

Speaker A

dictate morality and culture to The Peasants and when they don't take it it's a problem with the peasants they're not educated enough oh my God they're reactionary I'm sorry I want to go I want to go get something off the wall

Speaker A

but uh uh uh that political cartoon but you guys can see it it's on my website it's a yes it's it's one of those anti-populist cartoons depicting uh populism as a as a French Revolution peasant Uprising I I actually that's in

Speaker A

that's in the book isn't it yeah it is and I put it it's on my it's on my website too and it's just like that's it's it is such a toxic it's such a poisoned you know a poisonous attitude

Speaker A

and by the way it's a a interesting little flip here um uh uh you know Trump is by no means a populist Trump now openly identifies with William McKinley did you know this he's he gave this he gave an interview sorry it was he knows

Speaker A

who he is yeah I'm sure one of so Carl Rove once wrote a book about McKinley it's sort of the the secret love of the Republicans and uh Trump was speaking to some uh uh like New York economic club

Speaker A

or something like that and he went on and on and on about William McKinley and the greatness of William McKinley and that's you know McKinley obviously they or not obviously McKinley being the guy who destroyed uh populism you know and

Speaker A

and crushed William Jennings Bryan etc etc and just uh it is absolutely fascinating to me we've got we've got the the the politics of McKinley on both sides now the SC the scolding on one side the tariffs on the

Speaker A

other well the the one explanation I'm not seeing anyone want to touch certainly in the punditocracy uh because it's a very dangerous subject for them is Gaza so you saw a 13-point swing in the 18 to 29 demographic towards Republicans yes um

Speaker A

now just as Vietnam radicalized a generation I think partly because they saw it on TV and partly because it was a it was a contradiction of everything they'd been taught the country was yeah it seems like with Gen Z it's having the

Speaker A

same effect because they're watching Gaza on social media that this is a client state so we're responsible in a very clear way and it's a contradiction of you mention in your oped seeing uh a reference to uh settler colonialism at

Speaker A

the National Portrait Gallery remember this this entire generation has been raised on that and they were told by their teachers that what the liberal class represents is a rejection of that kind of treatment of peoples and then this whole liberal class calls the cops

Speaker A

to crack their heads when they start protesting against a settler Colonial project so do you think that's lost this generation of the democratic party I mean it certainly seems like an element of why Trump won amongst many others oh

Speaker A

have you looked at the results for dearb in ham trami Michigan of course we've covered that we've been on that story for a year a whole year yeah yeah I mean that is astonishing but also I mean it's

Speaker A

astonishing because of who Trump is uh but it's also in some ways not surprising you could see it coming miles away he was Campa he was campaigning there for God's sakes he reached out to those to those to the leaders of those

Speaker A

communities yeah and Kamala brought Le Cheney to Michigan the daughter of the architect of 911 foreign policy with a whole lot of Muslim skulls under and and when and JD Vance made that remark about the Iraq War and I I was sitting there

Speaker A

in the auditorium being like Oh my God and and I'll be damned the Democrats did they ever take the bait did they ever take the bait bragging about Dick Cheney endorsement um wow uh I don't know if it'll cause a a generational uh pulling

Speaker A

away I don't know um because it's because it is far away and there's no as far as we know no no Americans actually involved in the you know in this you know ongoing disaster um except for on the receiving

Speaker A

end right um so I I I suspect that it will uh that that the that the damage from that will be limited but what do I know this not my it's not my you know area of expertise you know this Americans with

Speaker A

exceptions like Vietnam which you mentioned Americans generally don't uh voters don't care about foreign policy this is just you know for whatever re this year despite everything the only 4% according to the exit polls had foreign policy as a top issue four% and and is

Speaker A

that the did they have a different question for Gaza or was that because I haven't seen no was just foreign policy lumped into one thing which would Encompass Gaza in yeah I would imagine Ukraine right um but yeah prophetically low unfortunately

Speaker A

yeah y but in some places that's that's going to make the difference well obviously in Dearborn it would I mean it made the difference obviously now because Trump won Michigan comfortably enough that wasn't the story that you know Gaza cost the Democrats uh the

Speaker A

state because a lot Virginia I mean northern northern Virginia he came damn close did you see that well Virginia generally was uh I mean last I saw was a lot closer I don't know how those DC suburbs came in in the end but I did

Speaker A

notice uh what was the county that taibi did the piece on lden County close that was fairly close I mean lot a lot of recent immigrants uh there uh and in in Fairfax and you know um Arlington yeah yeah I mean I I think

Speaker A

it's all of a like I said I think this was just it was a wholesale collapse of ultimately I mean if we want to put it all under one umbrella we talked about Obama a few minutes ago I think the

Speaker A

Democrats really thought when Obama won that that Obama Coalition was permanent that it was not breakable and Trump broke it emerging Democratic majority oh yeah well that he didn't win the black votes but he almost won the Latino vote

Speaker A

they were over 40% but the Obama Coalition is now in shambles that's over that's of the past the Democrats can no longer count on that Trump made too many inroads with too many uh groups that formerly composed what the Democrats

Speaker A

really assumed was going to be a permanent New Majority don't forget the Democrats were talking about Texas turning blue because of the Obama Coalition what's happened democ Texas has gotten redder as it's gotten more diverse now because Trump has destroyed

Speaker A

the Obama Coalition yeah it's can I say one thing about about about that uh which is that were talking earlier about like uh you know if you game if you game this out uh you know maybe Trump will

Speaker A

deliver some kind of disaster and allow the D to sweep back in something like I mean the pandemic obviously allowed allowed Joe Biden to win but the uh that's how you know that's how big sweeping changes happen in this country

Speaker A

and and and whenever anybody talks about that that we you know we're going to have another uh you know 1929 style economic disaster and it'll allow us to do great things I always remind them that that that actually happened it

Speaker A

already happened it happened in 2008 and we brought in the man overwhelming with an overwhelming mandate in both houses of Congress we brought in the man who we thought was was going to fix it and I was you know I was drinking the Kool-Aid

Speaker A

back then and I I was very enthusiastic about about Barack Obama and I thought and I thought we all yeah I thought he had I thought he had the stuff I thought like because I I had met him in person

Speaker A

and he's you know he's super smart right and and at the time my theory was well the you know Bush Administration had filled these agencies with with idiots and they ran everything in reverse and so of course they stumbled into this and

Speaker A

now bring on bring on the genius grant winners and you know and the and the Nobel Prize laurates and the president of Harvard and they'll they they'll fix I'm sorry any know and and they they they it up right and they

Speaker A

it up pretty pretty massively so I never thought that the Obama uh Coalition had any coattails at all it was a it was a one-off thing this this what has now delivered as Trump has actually been going for much longer than that and

Speaker A

Obama had this moment where he could have put it all in reverse and he didn't and we we actually we still don't know why um well that's interesting okay so I have my spe so what what would that

Speaker A

moment be in your in your mind oh for starters prosecute the The Village uh second of all you know bail out ordinary homeowners you know let the banks go not let the banks go down you take them down in an orderly fashion but

Speaker A

this is the this that was the should have been the end of Wall Street you know that Wall Street can rebuild on different terms right once we've put all of these Banks out of business you know they can start over again from square

Speaker A

one or or whatever but that's just that's just for starters this country wanted all this country want was sick of bush and and Reagan and you know the way they had uh uh the way they had managed things for you know for decades you know

Speaker A

the deregulation the tax cuts it was Judgment Day on all that stuff and we didn't judge we didn't deliver and uh yeah we're going to pay for that for the Democrats are going to pay for that I mean ordinary Americans are also going

Speaker A

to pay for the whole world paid for that for that screw up by the way I mean the financial crisis was everywhere everywhere in the world and um anyhow so I you know we had that opportunity it came and it's and it went it slipped

Speaker A

through our fingers and uh anyhow yeah no I mean I think I mean I mentioned this on our post-election show I think step one towards radicalizing a lot of these liberals into Common Sense frankly is you have to

Speaker A

dismantle uh their view you have to dismantle Obama in their minds you you have to expose him for the I would argue charlatan that that he was and at the look at most char you could say yes just

Speaker A

a horrible mistake a horrible missed opportunity there and I agree with you the problem is that Obama's a really likable guy I mean he's like right he's not not So Much Anymore well not now with the you know used to be he's even

Speaker A

lost that he's even lost that yeah yeah SC saw nobody loves scold he's he's he's fully in his uh Bill Cosby pull your pants up yeah stage of rhetoric yeah something yeah so we so we just uh we

Speaker A

actually covered this oh I have to get off here in a couple minutes by the way there's the last thing uh we we we just covered how are you gonna embarrass me now no no no no uh Pompeo was kind of in the wind for

Speaker A

getting a cabinet position and Maga did what the Liberals would never do they always promised they they're we're going to hold Biden's feet to the fire after he's elected and then they of they go back back to brunch um they started they

Speaker A

got no Pompeo trending they worked it and they worked it and lo and behold Trump drops a tweet that's amazing that by the way that that that makes me so happy this is a guy you know I follow

Speaker A

the beginning the next from witch the next day he appoints Elise stefanic um to the UN who is a complete Zionist Maniac uh you know Absolut russophobe um so you know to your point that he's really not going to bring this

Speaker A

kind of transformative change they all know who Pompeo is it was on their radar so they pushed and they pushed and they pushed but there are hundreds of people who are not as high-profile as Pompeo who have very similar politics yeah who

Speaker A

you can stick into these positions before anybody has time to even do the research yep that's his first Administration so look I I uh you know I've listened to Donald Trump many times I was at his convention um you know he's Donald Trump doesn't

Speaker A

scare me uh the the ones who scare me are the regular the ordinary Republicans you know these these big business uh you know these you know the the the the ones who are the what's the the remnants of the old Republican party

Speaker A

and uh you know they've still it's still theirs uh you know I I mean I'm not going to what I'm not going to like express any hopes about the Trump years I think he's going to do some really Dreadful and

Speaker A

scary things uh tariffs across the board is a really stupid idea Mass deportation come on this is terrifying um I mean the my my best hope for him is that he just he that that he just discards all that right it's it was

Speaker A

just rhetoric that his big his big his big business buddies tell yeah I think I think you're right and I think it's going to be really really bad um and maybe he will deliver catastrophe and maybe he'll be gone but maybe he'll

Speaker A

maybe he won't do them to the extent that he promised and in fact he'll deliver um you know a roaring economy and Rising wages which is very possible if he doesn't do those things and uh and and then you're looking at you know

Speaker A

Advance Administration and well can I say guys have the Red Hats absolutely you know oh can I tell you another story and then I got to get off uh when uh you know eight years ago uh a friend of mine

Speaker A

from a a conservative that I knew from what's the matter with Kansas uh was he was trying to tease me and he mailed me a Maga hat because do you remember this because Trump had said at the convention

Speaker A

he was going to restore glass Eagle do you remember this was this 2016 I don't remember and and and then he just like he never mentioned it again but but but people were like taunting me they're like you know look Frank he's

Speaker A

your candidate right because that was like one of that was one of Bernie's issues that was one of my big issues you know no and he of course he never never so much as as breathed a word about it as

Speaker A

as president so well the ball is is his to drop I think that's the big takeway the ball is his to drop he has from working in Middle Class People if he doesn't them as hard as Republicans are used to them

Speaker A

then it's going to be very un very difficult to unseat the Republican party uh whether it's Vance or anybody else who carries on in this in this mold and that is uh that is the hole that the Democrats dug themselves I think they

Speaker A

dug it uh on purpose for themselves and these are just desserts as you said in your oped I don't know if it was your title or if the gave it that but the elites had it coming did they not no

Speaker A

they they they wrote that title I that was a good title they did good yeah and you did good well Thomas Frank I know you got to go thank you so much it was great to see you again talk to you again

Speaker A

soon thank you very much great seeing you again yeah thanks for having me all righty so long guys bye-bye please clap [Applause]

Topics:Thomas Frank2024 electionTrump landslideDemocrats working classpolitical analysisliberal critiqueAmerican politicsurban gentrificationpolitical realignmentprogressive strategy

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