Speaker A
To his daughter, a letter written. I think you have two daughters, right? Yes, that’s right.
Discussion on traditional Chinese filial piety, modern financial independence, and societal changes impacting family and elderly care.
Key Takeaways
- Modern financial instruments and social systems can liberate children from traditional filial obligations.
- Traditional filial piety is rooted in economic necessity rather than purely moral or cultural values.
- Chinese society still strongly adheres to old-age support through children despite modernization.
- Government welfare programs in Chinese regions are often minimal, shifting responsibility to families.
- Understanding these dynamics is crucial for younger generations navigating family expectations and personal freedom.
What the video covers
- The video discusses a letter from a father to his daughters emphasizing financial independence and freedom of choice over traditional filial obligations.
- It explores the Confucian concept of filial piety and how it conflicts with modern values of personal freedom and identity.
- The traditional system of raising children to support parents in old age is analyzed through an economic and social lens.
- The role of financial markets, insurance, and social welfare systems in modernizing elderly care and reducing family burden is highlighted.
- The video compares Chinese societal norms with global historical practices regarding marriage and family support.
- It critiques the limited government investment in elderly care in Chinese regions and the reliance on family support.
- The discussion touches on gender roles and the liberation of women through financial independence.
- Examples from Hong Kong’s welfare system illustrate the insufficiency of state support for the elderly.
- The video reflects on the psychological and cultural adjustments required as society transitions from traditional to modern support systems.
- It also briefly touches on related topics such as marriage systems, inheritance, and social customs.
Chapters
- 00:00Letter to Daughters and Family Dynamics
- 05:26Modern Society and Financial Markets
- 10:58Generational Challenges and Elderly Care
- 15:53Cultural and Psychological Reflections on Filial Piety
- 20:49Historical Perspectives on Marriage and Family Support
- 32:14Gender Roles and Social Liberation
- 42:47Government Welfare and Social Systems
- 57:13Concluding Thoughts on Tradition and Modernity
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
Are they both in the U.S.? Yes. What is the situation now? Now both of them have graduated from college. One is working in San Francisco.
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She has been working for two and a half years. The other is in Beijing, working in Beijing.
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Oh, she returned. Half a year, working for half a year. So, is she with you?
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Uh, I am in Hong Kong, and she is in Beijing, so we are apart. I find his letter quite moving, and I think this letter should be read by today’s only children born in the 80s and 90s; they should feel
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very comforted. Why? Because I see an economist’s approach in his letter. What do you mean?
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He says, "Daughters, after you graduate from college, of course, if you want to come back, we would be very happy, but don’t come back just to support us in our old age. You should come back only because you want to. We are also happy
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if you prefer to stay in the U.S.; you can stay, and you can date whoever you want." He says, "You don't need to worry about us, because we have purchased pension insurance, long-term care insurance for the elderly, and invested in funds, elderly care funds.
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We have already planned our later years; we can go to a nursing home, or we can hire long-term care." "We have the money, so you are free." Oh, I think this is the best gift to children. I think when parents can take care of
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themselves, it really is the best gift to their children. Of course, I know it’s easier said than done. I mainly feel that, like, I’m 55 now.
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I can feel that as I get older, I can better understand those traditional Confucian requirements regarding filial piety. Children, sons and daughters, must be filial, etc. Of course, I wouldn't do it that way, but my own growth and changes, that psychological
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journey, allow me to understand why, for example, many surveys we conducted in China show that the older people are, the more strongly they react to whether children are obedient or whether they can have their own personality. Uh-huh, they react
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strongly. They react strongly, demanding that children have no choice, must be filial to their parents, and must take care of the elderly.
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Of course, I later realized that there is indeed a practical conflict of interest in this. As people age, their need for personal identity grows stronger. Naturally, in terms of values, behavior, and moral standards, they are more likely to support the
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non-negotiable nature of Confucian hierarchy and social order. That is, every person must regulate themselves according to this framework, find their place, and act accordingly. Of course, when I wrote that letter, these beliefs and perspectives had not changed at all. Even now, when I
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lecture to the post-90s and post-00s generations, I constantly bring this up. The traditional concept of raising children to support one's old age. Mm.
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We often say that traditional Chinese society was an old society without freedom, human rights, rule of law, or democracy. I tell them that many of these issues, at their core, stem from the "raising children to prevent old-age poverty" system.
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Raising children for old-age support. Raising children for old-age support; the logic is quite simple. I raise my sons and daughters, right? My future life, sickness, and death—I have to rely on them for everything. They are my insurance, my stocks, my retirement
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fund. If, after I’ve invested so much in them, they grow up and want their own freedom and personal choices—falling in love and marrying just anyone—what happens to the investment I made in them? That is why, in the
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past, arranged marriages... Arranged marriages were a necessity. It’s not that people in traditional China didn’t want personal freedom; choosing your own soulmate is wonderful, right? Like the Cowherd and the Weaver Girl. The legend has been passed down for over 2,000 years, and it is
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still considered our highest ideal to this day. The reason is that in real life, under the system of raising children for old-age support, you cannot have a choice. If you marry someone who lacks prospects and won't become the next Ma Huateng or Li
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Ka-shing, then after I’ve invested so much in you, what will I rely on when I’m old, immobile, or sick? No way!
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You must marry someone I can approve of. Who is someone I can approve of?
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Someone with a promising future, and ideally, someone from a wealthy family. We aren't the Ma Huateng family ourselves, but it would be best if they were from the Ma Huateng family.
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Is this considered selfish? Or is it a helplessness? Because you just mentioned in your letter to your daughter that, actually, that portion of your old-age burden can now be shifted to the social system, right?
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You can buy stocks and funds yourself and take care of your own needs, so the traditional concepts we once held were only because society couldn't provide those functions. You, you said it very well. So, in many of the books,
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articles, and lectures I’ve written, I want to clarify one core point: the reason modern society is modern—with human rights, democracy, and the rule of law—is fundamentally because we now have financial markets.
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We have insurance. We have various lending products, retirement funds, and all sorts of stocks and bonds. There is a wide array of financial instruments that allow you to arrange for any risks or life needs you can imagine in the
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future. And consequently, this frees your children, and especially, it liberates women. That is why, over these years, every time I finish such a lecture, I find that women are the ones who like my topics the most, because I
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tell them: look, in the old society when there were no markets, wives and ...
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If you were in need, you could sell these people or sell your daughters, because otherwise, in other words, this daughter...
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or wife was actually an insurance product. You could sell them when you were in need.
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He studies finance, so he looks at the world through this perspective. But in fact, besides China, I suspect that most parts of the world followed similar systems in the past.
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Every society should have been like this; otherwise, Engels wouldn't have said back then that the marriage system was actually a matter of family property inheritance and exchange.
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Because in Europe, it was actually the same in the past; raising children was meant to provide security for old age, because the entire social system was structured that way. However, what’s slightly unique about Chinese regions is that even with the rise and
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globalization of modern capitalism, and even with so many financial tools like you mentioned, Professor Chen, or the fact that many countries use social systems to handle a person's aging, illness, and death, Chinese communities still strongly believe in "raising
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children to provide for old age." To the point that I remember in the 1980s, when it was popular to discuss the relationship between Confucian ethics and capitalism, many people brought this up—why Taiwan, Singapore, and now, to some extent, we could say the
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Mainland actually counts too. The reason why the government or state apparatus invests relatively little in personal retirement insurance and elderly care is mainly because these responsibilities are shifted onto individual families. Some scholars even argue that this is actually a good
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thing. Because it reduces government spending. Yeah. It reduces government spending and keeps the government smaller. For instance, in Hong Kong, there’s a welfare program, we know it as "fruit money" for the elderly.
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The name "fruit money" itself is actually quite funny. It’s supposed to be a concept similar to the old-age pension in Europe, but it serves no such purpose because the amount is so small. It’s so small that people in
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Hong Kong gave it a nickname; it's only enough for the elderly to buy a portion of fruit each month, hence the name.
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But even Li Ka-shing can receive it, or so it seems. People criticized him for taking it, but I t
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He has paid so much in taxes, and this is a legal and reasonable right that Hong Kong citizens are entitled to, so why shouldn't he take it? That’s why Li Ka-shing took it too. I truly have a deep personal understanding of this,
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especially now that my own mother has fallen ill. I’ve really come to appreciate what parents always used to say when arguing: that a parent’s good health is a child's greatest blessing.
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Yeah. You can really empathize with children in China, especially since I am an only child myself. When I think about the four elderly parents potentially falling ill one after another, my goodness, how are they supposed to handle that? It’s simply
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impossible. And think about how much emotional tearing apart happens in such situations. You know, some old sayings are quite cold, right? Like "there is no filial son at a long-term bedside," but once you’ve experienced it yourself, you understand what this
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saying means. It's not necessarily a derogatory term; it’s just that the situation is one of helplessness.
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Moreover, you have to consider these only children today; besides bearing the burden alone, there is another issue. That is whether they have children of their own. I see many post- 90s generation individuals who actually don't want to have children, or are
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having fewer. When you think about it, what does that mean? It means they have to support the elderly above them, and we must also note that life expectancy is increasing. In other words, for his generation—actually starting from my
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own—the time, energy, and money we spend supporting our parents is longer than what my parents spent supporting the generation before them, because lifespans have extended. Right.
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So, what does an extended lifespan actually mean in today’s society? Why are we able to live longer now? Because various medical advancements have improved, but none of these come for free. So your expenses increase, and looking ahead, what if you don't have
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children? Then you have to start making plans for when you reach your parents ' age. You have to make multi-layered investments, meaning for your own old age, since I have no children to take care of me, I have to rely on other
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investments or the government to care for me. But it is very likely that for my parents' generation, or those born in the 80s and 90s, I think they are the most miserable. By the time their parents no longer need their care and
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have passed away, they are actually already old themselves. They are already old, and then they have…they …plus you have a child of your own, and then you follow your child's path.
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If that mindset changes, and they don't plan to have their own ideas, like Professor Chen encourages us to be very free, then you'd be even more miserable .
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Exactly. Yes, didn't what you just said about having parents to care for and children to raise perfectly describe me ?
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Right, I just feel that, on one hand, regarding my parents, they aren't in very good health right now, and I’m not by their side. Aside from the financial arrangements you mentioned— which are actually manageable—it's mostly the emotional support.
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It's more about the emotional arrangements; whether you find someone to care for them or someone to help out , whenever a minor issue arises and my mother complains, I wonder if she's blaming me. Because I'm not there, it’s very hard to arrange things, and
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it becomes a kind of moral pressure. And as for the children, you feel that when we were dating or getting married, it was all about emotions and romance, everything was great; but once you're married and have kids, you suddenly
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realize, "My God, I’ve chosen a completely different way of life," a lifestyle with very few choices but an extremely high price. Because once you have a child, you can forget about the two of you roaming the world freely;
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that's just not a thing anymore. You must, you have to find a place to live, whether it's a school district house or something else; you will definitely consider it. Regardless of the tier or whatever, you're bound to think about
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these things because you can't just ignore your kids. But if you don't have children, there are other ways, like I just mentioned.
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Some people don't have kids now, so you can't rely on raising children to provide for your old age.
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That’s why I’m telling you, Professor Chen is lonely. Professor Chen’s theory, my mind tends to wander when I hear it, you know? When I look at his theory, I’m often reminded of a female writer, Eileen Chang. Hmm.
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It gives me a chilling feeling, do you understand? If you look at Eileen Chang’s famous quotes—some people view the world with a warm gaze, but Eileen Chang views it with a cold one.
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She has a famous saying that life is like a magnificent robe, full, but when you look closely, it's covered in lice. She wrote about her own family relationships. Many things we consider love, maternal love, or even filial piety—if you look at it from an
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economic perspective, it was a method used in ancient China when there was no pension system. And then, look at how she describes the relationship with her mother. I can't help but think that some children today face this same
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problem. There was a time when parents couldn't control their kids. You know, there's a new phenomenon now. Some kids , I really think, it's like parents going to the park for matchmaking on their behalf, saying you have to marry
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this person, but the kid won't comply, right? There are these only children online, and I saw them writing about the one thing their parents say that leaves them speechless. It's when parents get into an argument and blurt out: "You eat my food and drink my
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water, so you have to listen to me." When you hear that, you feel a bit powerless. If you're a child in that situation, are you really just living off your parents? You're living in their house, and perhaps you're even
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spending their money. Sigh, and behind all that, parents will say, "Mom and Dad are doing this for your own good, we love you, and since you eat and drink our stuff, how can you not listen to us?" You could say this guy is sick.
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Truly, behind this, I’ve discovered that the relationship between people— the provider relationship—is a very critical one.
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No matter what school of thought we're talking about. So that’s why, in the end...
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Personal economic freedom, financial independence, this is the very foundation of all other freedoms. Mm. Don't just say, "I'm part of the 90s generation, I have personality, we are the new generation, modern people, you folks from the 50s, 60s, 70s are
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too old, you don't understand these rights and freedoms." However, if these young people don't have their own way to achieve self-realization or financial independence, in the end, of course, they have to do whatever their parents want. Listening to your letter,
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I have another question. I remember Lin Yutang back in the Republic of China era; he praised China, having come from the West. He felt that while Western elderly might be in nursing homes, nothing compares to the Chinese tradition of four generations under one
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roof, where a daughter-in-law greets you—that kind of family warmth. If your two daughters truly listen to your heart's desire, and in your old age you really have a nurse by your side taking care of you, don't you feel it's bleak?
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Ah, so for everyone to truly achieve this, it requires a lot of their own...
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psychological psychological adjustment and personal reflection. Do I like the idea of my daughters living with us today? Of course, I certainly would. But I can't do that, because they have their own lives. They are so young, with decades
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or a hundred years of the future ahead of them. How can they live if I say, based on my own preferences, that you must forget who you are? Forget your own interests, forget the kind of life you want to lead, and come to me to
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live according to what I think is best for you. I know many Chinese parents are, in this regard...
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quite selfish, and they put in very little effort to change. That's very interesting, because I originally thought it was just a difference in personality. I thought some parents could truly manage to not need their children's care, but hearing
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you say this, it turns out you are restraining yourself from interfering. Of course. Because, really? Because I —because I—I have seen sometimes, for instance in Europe, some elderly people who have very strong personalities. Like my mother-in-law, she lives alone in a huge house, and I
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always thought she really didn't need us to take care of her. It's not that, foreigners are just used to it. I have a friend who married a Frenchman. His parents, her in-laws, traveled a long way—a two-hour drive—just to visit
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them for the holiday. When they arrived at her home, even when they wanted a beer, they would ask their son, "May I have a beer?" It’s always like that; they maintain a certain distance.
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Perhaps that’s not entirely how they feel inside. From what I’ve heard, it’s quite interesting; they actually do sometimes envy the liveliness of the Chinese. Take square dancing, for example—to them, it looks like such a joyful evening activity.
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They really like that. That’s true. I once took some old friends to see square dancing in Beijing, and they were so excited. They said, "Oh my god, I want to join in too !" They even asked if I could let them
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out of the car to go in. I told them clearly that they would just shy away.
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But I want to bring it back to the fact that, sometimes, it really is just personality. Like you said, you have restraint and self-discipline. I’ve seen some parents who are actually annoyed when their children come to visit. They feel their lives are just
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fine, so when their children say they want to come back and stay for a month, they think, "Oh god, the daughter-in-law or the son-in-law is coming over," and they find it troublesome to have an extra person in the house. But there are others who are
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the complete opposite; they want to control everything, and they’d prefer you to hand over all the money you earn . Of course, personalities vary, but I want to say that beyond the differences caused by personality, there are some
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institutional and historical arrangements in human society that I find quite unique. For instance, why do we raise the next generation? Why do we respect the elderly and support them?
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For example, China has valued filial piety since ancient times, right? In the past, only the elderly could eat meat. Why was it done that way? Often, it was because in the past, the accumulation of knowledge in society was purely related to age. Experience
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is wisdom, isn't it? Knowledge is accumulated over time, so the older you live, the wiser you get; at the very least, the older you are, the more knowledge you possess. A think tank— that's what an elder was. An elder—
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why is an elder called an elder? You had to rely on elders to solve the many problems occurring in our society or our families. But the problem is, today that function has been completely stripped away. Elders are not
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necessarily the wisest; they are often the slowest, and they might not even know how to use various electronic devices.
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Right, and their experience becomes meaningless. So, in this situation, the objective value of the elderly themselves is declining. And at this point, a question arises: will the abandonment of the elderly reappear? To be blunt, throughout human history, there have
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been societies where the experience of the elderly wasn't considered very important because the environment was too harsh and conditions too cruel, much like in*The Ballad of Narayama*.
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So, they developed a custom in their society—a practice that actually existed—of carrying the elderly up a mountain.
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To wait for death. To wait for death. Let me interject here. One evening on the street, I heard two people behind me talking, probably two middle-aged or older women , and they were discussing this very thing. I don't know where they heard it
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, but one said, "Have you heard this story? It says that when people got old , they would carry them up the mountain to wait for death." Then they added, "But do you know what?
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It was because the son and his father carried the grandfather up there. On the way down, the son said to his father, 'One day, I will carry you the same way.'" The point is, don't think that society can just do that; you will
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face retribution later. It means that our traditions and our values still cannot accept the most "economical" arrangement you mentioned.
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Yes, because people are, after all, living in history and in reality. Logically, it makes sense, but emotionally, I just feel...
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Actually, what Wendao said here also brings out another point I wanted to make. In reality, for any human society or race, the customs and habits they have are all forced upon them by their living environment.
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Because they found that for their specific group, Yes, when resources are that limited, Right, this is the best possible arrangement. If you change it to how it is now, where there is a surplus of resources and developed financial markets, then
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the entire structure and these cultural norms will also change significantly. Human history has always progressed this way. That’s why I often say that we Chinese people always claim, " Chinese culture must be like this." For example, filial piety or ideas about
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raising children to provide for one's old age—I always tell them that's not the case. It has never been fixed; it has always been changing. With this new living environment and new opportunities, everyone will undergo significant changes.
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Furthermore, we can rest assured regarding whether they could bring themselves to do it; there are stories of people carrying their grandfathers or fathers up into the snowy mountains, waiting for winter to arrive and the snow to block the paths, leaving them
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to die there. In fact, it’s not about being cruel; what is it, then? If society truly has such a need, it will develop corresponding beliefs. For example, believing that there are mountain gods. These mountain gods are there to take the elderly away, and if
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a family doesn’t carry them up, the elderly person will face retribution while still on the plains. It develops these kinds of beliefs to justify its actions. This makes the whole thing acceptable to everyone, giving them peace of mind. This is what's called "
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facing death to find life," but when you talk about modern society, I think it’s very difficult because, in modern times, human life has become increasingly precious. Take wartime, for instance; life and death were simple matters, and the question of
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elderly care didn't even arise, but as Professor Chen said the other day, many of today’s problems...If you look at it from another angle, it actually shows that society is improving. Mm.
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As things improve, people’s needs— like caring for the elderly, seeing them off, fulfilling filial piety, and the emotional bonds between parents and children—are all becoming more...
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How should I put it? For instance, I feel that many Chinese parents today— like Professor Qian Liqun from Peking University—I find that those who, like you...
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Who are cultured and have their own reading lives—they have their own spiritual lives and can say, "I'll go to a nursing home, I don't need my children.""Mm," because they can live their own lives. But, do you know what
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many parents around us are like? In their later years, the only topic for the couple when they chat is you.
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Right. Nothing else. They have no other independence. Their world has nothing else in it. So, if they are bedridden and relying on each other, and don't see their children for a long time, and you don't even call to say, "I'm not feeling well
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today," or barely call at all, then even if their physical needs are met, their psychological...
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Yes, that’s right. So, these years, for instance, I've lived in the U.S. for so long. In that small town where I used to live, I’d pass a nursing home every day on my way to the office.
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After passing by so often, I started thinking that beyond just financial markets, the entire social and economic landscape requires a lot of support systems.
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Right. Every single link has to be in place; otherwise, it’s very hard to achieve what we talk about—gradually moving away from relying on children for old age.
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So, these nursing homes are filled with people in their eighties, nineties, or even over a hundred years old.
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Sometimes, when you go in and look, it does seem quite pitiful. I’ve often thought, "Wow, if these were Chinese parents, they certainly couldn't accept this." Even now, many people still can't accept it. Most of them, I think, wouldn't want to.
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But do these elderly people—I mean, Americans—not want to see their children, grandchildren, and other relatives? Surely they do.
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They miss them a great deal, but generally, Americans understand that I am me. And my son and daughter, they are themselves.
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They have their own freedom, their own rights, and their own lives. I cannot impose my preferences or demands on them. So, the whole society, including culture, as we mentioned, must undergo constant transformation. People have to change. From ancient times to the
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modern day, is it that people...... are becoming increasingly heartless? You just can't be too emotional.
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On one hand, you could say it looks heartless on the surface, but in reality, I think the respect for every individual as a human being represents social progress. Right, that's different from bloodlines or family ties; it's about the respect for every
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individual citizen. Take marriage, for example. As Wendao just mentioned, it originally started as a family property transaction.
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But today, has that reason completely disappeared? Uh-huh. Not entirely, not completely. In fact, as Wendao also mentioned, if we look at human history through the lens of marriage, in primitive societies—not just in Asia, but in Europe and Africa
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too—it was mostly a matrilineal society, more like polyandry. Men are like medicine, but women are the most important. Of course, one very important reason is that in primitive societies, men had to go out to hunt.
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Hmm. Uh-huh. In a single year, a quarter to a third of the men would die.
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Uh-huh. Life was so miserable. So, in that kind of environment, if descendants were defined by the male bloodline to determine whose son someone was, in such a society, there was a one-quarter to one-third probability for many of these children within a
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year. Hmm. After a year, they would have no father , and then there would be no one to provide for them, right?
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But because the mothers at that time were within the tribe, doing domestic work, they wouldn't go out to hunt and face such massive life-threatening challenges. So they naturally became the ones to whom the children belonged, which greatly increased the probability of continuity
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. However, once they entered settled agriculture, everything changed. Every agricultural society adopted this patrilineal system, a patrilineal system of descent .
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Because of this, the phenomenon of polygamy became a widespread marital relationship. Of course, later on, after reaching industrial society, Hmm.
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actually, before industrial society, within Christian societies, the monogamous system eventually emerged. So, this is a way to look at human marital relationships and the power structure within families from the perspective of industrial structural changes. The changes it brings are
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actually quite interesting. It can also help us understand why Chinese society today is undergoing a transformation in the internet age and shifting further toward the service industry, which actually impacts family relationships.
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Slowly, it will produce a great shift, with women's status at home becoming higher and higher. Actually, not really . I think that maybe within the home, in many societies that appear to be very male-dominated on the surface, women actually have a fair amount of
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status. For example, you just mentioned that it later became polygamy. Take nomadic peoples in the Middle East, for instance. Why could men take multiple wives so often? It was because war left many widows. Initially, it was about accepting and arranging for those
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widows, so marriage systems...What they are like is basically a form of social arrangement. It's about how, how you, how society arranges these people. Even in those polygamous families, women still held a significant status; they could still influence decisions, and
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domestic matters were still under their control. Conversely, in some societies that appear quite gender-equal, the glass ceiling for women remains a serious issue outside the home, in the workplace.
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Yes, I've heard from some Chinese business people who say that when they go out for negotiations and such, they often find the other company is structured like this: a male boss.
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And that, that male boss isn't necessarily the smartest one. Often he isn't the smartest, but the female assistant next to him, that person is definitely the smartest.
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Usually, when they need to discuss something, they have to speak to that female deputy first. She remembers everything and is very organized. This kind of pattern often exists.
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Yes, I have a lot of experience with that. Let’s go to a commercial break.
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Chang'an Ford Edge, we'll continue our chat after the ads. The high quality we present comes from countless scientific simulation tests.
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2018 New Edge, new achievements. Ford, Go Further. Coming back, actually social needs and envi-Coming back, social needs and the environment will naturally cause many institutional changes. How we handle things, for example, intergenerational or gender relationships, is the same. But the
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problem is when the whole society is changing, what we can do—what an individual can do—is usually just how I personally adapt to it. I think this is a huge problem in such a changing order today. I feel that in China,
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especially many middle-aged and elderly people, haven't made the necessary psychological adjustments. Mm. Speaking of the issue of elderly care, because in the future, it is very likely that you will have the opportunity to live in a nursing home.
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But people in nursing homes need to have the mental preparation for living there. So, what does this mental preparation include? For instance, Professor Chen, perhaps you and your spouse both have enough mental strength . You have your own lives, just as you
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mentioned earlier, your lives aren't built around talking about your children. Besides that, what else is there? We shouldn't forget that there is a huge difference between going to a nursing home and aging at home. When you age at home, you become
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increasingly detached from society. We see many elderly people, and I think what is most miserable is loneliness.
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What is that loneliness? The older he gets, the smaller his world becomes, until eventually, he doesn't even leave the house. He just stays in his own little bedroom or space, but a nursing home is the opposite; it’s a social
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environment. Hmm. Do you even have that kind of ability, personality, and those social skills?
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At that age, having to adapt to people you don't even know and interact with them daily—my dad would find that impossible, because he’s a very withdrawn, very introverted person who never even goes downstairs. So for him, being in an environment with strangers
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and having to get along with them, that would feel just like living in hell. Right, so other situations arise.
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For example, I’ve seen some places that aren't exactly nursing homes, but more like dormitories for the elderly.
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Or retirement apartments, which are popular in Europe and America. How do they work? They aren't full-blown nursing homes. It's more like, say, if a few of us decide that when we’re old, we’ll buy a house or a few units
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together to live in. It’s really about living with a group of friends. I’ve seen this myself; in Switzerland , I often saw that it could be quite miserable in there.
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Yes, of course, but I’ve also seen some very funny ones. I’ve actually seen a dozen people in their seventies hitting the road for a trip.
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I asked, and it turns out they all lived in that kind of place, or the same nursing home, and actually, it works out okay.
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A few old buddies sitting on chairs, " Did you just leak a few drops?"" I’ve wet my pants three times today." For example, I think we’ve actually had such arrangements in China since ancient times. Let me give you an
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example from my own ancestral home in Shunde, Guangdong. We have some customs in Shunde that are different from other places. First, there’s a type of person—like the character in the movie "A Simple Life" played by Deanie Ip—called "Ma Jie." What is a Ma Jie?
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They are just like the domestic helpers many people hire nowadays, or like the Filipino helpers in Hong Kong. It’s a profession, and this specific profession in my hometown has a unique trait: they generally vow never to marry for their entire lives,
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so they are called "self-combed women." The "self-combing" women would take an oath, deciding not to marry in their lifetime. They would stay with the families they worked for, but maintained very close ties within their own group. They had a custom where the
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employers were obligated to set aside a portion of their wages for them to save . What was this money saved for? When they got too old to work, some employers, like the young master in Andy Lau's movie, might choose to
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support them, which is wonderful. But if not, they would have to retire. What would they do then? They would use the money they had saved all their lives to buy a small house. Usually, the "Ma Je" maids would buy them as a group. We
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call these kinds of houses "spinster houses." It’s an entire row, or even a whole village, of these houses. The entire village consists of retired elderly women looking after one another. So they form a community?
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Yes, a community. Actually, Professor Chen, I’ve been thinking...Right, you mentioned the internet's shift toward the service industry. I wonder if it could help seniors find a new purpose. For instance, I heard years ago that in Korea, what did they have seniors do?
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Deliver packages. Since seniors get half-price bus fares, they have plenty of time. Now in China, there are apps where you can hire people to wait in line for you.
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It’s about handling time-consuming tasks because young people are busy, and seniors have the time. Could this drive a new role for them? I don’t believe delivering packages is the best option.
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They certainly aren't riding bicycles, that's for sure. They can barely walk steadily, let alone carry that much stuff. That, but what you said could be...
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Better. There must be other ways. For example, I wasn't used to it at first, but in Hong Kong, I saw so many men and women in their 70s or 80s still driving taxis, or...
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Working in restaurants. This is rare in the US. Of course, I didn’t understand it before, but now I know more about it.
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Hong Kong's retirement and pension security... Is far too little, far too little. Extremely. So necessity forces them to work.
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So many people are forced to do this— let’s not talk about this topic anymore.
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Right, but as you said, don't these changes in economic relations lead to many changes in traditional family structures? For instance, the " self-combing" women you mentioned earlier; that was a social structure formed under a specific economic condition.
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So, can we think of it this way—that for humans, the so-called institutions of family, marriage, and kinship are not set in stone?
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Of course not, certainly not; they are constantly changing. They are always changing. Always changing. So, can we anticipate what’s to come? Do you have any predictions, Professor Chen? What will they become? For instance, like what you just mentioned. Well, excuse my
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vulgarity, but I've always found that the question of "who supports whom" is quite significant. For example, between a husband and wife, simply put, who earns more money—that subtly influences everything. As you mentioned , with the rising status of women,
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there is a clear trend. And with marriage, we also see more and more factors leading to instability. So, how do you think it will evolve? A colleague once told me that the reason for this instability today is that men
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aren't lacking in sex, and women aren't lacking in money. So, what will this traditional marriage relationship become in the future?
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It will certainly undergo great changes ; in fact, it has already changed significantly. Originally, we spoke of it as...well, like that...Like in the Huangmei opera "The Couple Returns from the Fields"— "You till the fields, I weave cloth; I fetch water, you tend
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the garden." In reality...The meaning is clear: by marrying, two people form something like a company, each playing to their own strengths. In this way, through this combination, the output can be maximized, far higher than what each could achieve alone.
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However, this economic function has now been replaced by various companies and businesses, so there is no longer a need to rely on marriage to fulfill it.
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And lastly, there is another very important function: the security against risks we mentioned earlier— raising children to provide for old age , or security against illness and death —which is increasingly being replaced by financial markets, nursing homes, and other industries. So in the end,
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some might ask if marriage is necessary to stabilize sexual relationships. If you were to ask Chinese men or women today, they might say, "Is it really necessary to solve this problem through marriage?" So, when you think about it in the end
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... Towards what? Everyone, everyone will realize that in the end, you are the only one you can truly rely on.
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Oh, so this leads us back to the idea of the "atomic" individual. In the end, we are all just lonely stars, I suppose.
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Everything is drifting apart, isn't it? But I feel like traditional values still have a lot of inertia. Sometimes, for instance, in families where the woman earns more, at least in the cases I've seen, most of the time it's not
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the woman who ends up cheating; it's the man, because he feels psychologically unbalanced. Mhm.
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He’ll go find a mistress. This might be a generalization. This is too absolute a statement, but I have personally seen cases like this; it's quite strange. I think in the past, when we talked about marriage, or finding someone to date or marry, we
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always said the most important thing is whether they are a good person, a very pure kind of relationship. We thought, if you look at a woman and only care if she's pretty, that's wrong; you should look at her character. The same goes
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for men—you should only look at their character, not whether they have money. Later on, I discovered it's not really like that.
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This isn't just about money, everyone; it's the truth. Right, I realized it too late. Later I found that in a family, the man—not necessarily earning a huge income, but at least having a decent job and some income—is very important for a stable
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family. Uh-huh. Because it involves the man's own healthy personality and dignity. Yes, including his confidence.
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But on the other hand, going back to talking about family functions, if you look at human history, especially over the last 100 years or so, I think it's a complete example of family functions being continuously stripped away or
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roles constantly being eroded. Right, can you give an example? Well, 60 years ago in China, the vast majority of people were actually born at home. Born at home, and in the past, children also died at home. And as
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children, you didn't need to go to kindergarten; you were schooled at home . So, may I ask how many people today are born at home and die at home? You are born and you die in the hospital, and
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during your early childhood, you are in daycare or kindergarten. So the entire role of the family is constantly being stripped away. In the end, what do we usually say the family is? It only has an emotional function left. But today,
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we can get plenty of that emotional function through our phones and WeChat moments. Mr. Lu Xun said long ago that love must be based on something tangible.
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Mhm. Right? If in the end, it’s all stripped away and only an empty emotion remains, don't you feel it's hollow?
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But there is one aspect of modern social change that will ensure marriage continues for a long time. What is the reason? For example, back in 2009, New York State conducted a study on the rights brought about by marriage. They calculated that
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in New York, when two people get married, Uh-huh, just this single marriage certificate, Uh-huh, can grant both parties over 1,000 different rights. Oh, what is the reason for this? For instance, immigration rights; if you are married to a US citizen, you can
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immigrate to the US. Then there’s retirement benefits, medical coverage, and even the gym next door—if I sign up, my wife can naturally go too.
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Or life insurance, or the right to use the library at Yale University; there are many, over a thousand. So, in the face of these benefits, this marriage certificate still makes a difference.
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But look, systems are designed by people. In Hong Kong, for example, married people pay less tax than single people. Exactly, it’s designed that way for you.
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So this system, up to now, still encourages—or rather, pushes—you to get married. Although in some places people stay unmarried to save on taxes; it seems some places have such rules.
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That happens in China too, for example, people getting married or divorced because of housing issues. Right?
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Buying multiple properties. And now a new situation has emerged regarding whether debts are considered joint liabilities. Because now, it’s possible that even after you’ve divorced, you might still be held jointly responsible for your ex-husband's debts. So if that’s the
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case, you have to reconsider whether you should get married. When I just heard you say that, I suddenly felt that the reason I can sit here and chat with everyone today is because my functions as a mother have
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been replaced by schools, nannies, and other things. And, you know, things like ordering takeout. But looking back , just as you said, it makes me feel quite hollow. It means that between my child and me, I can no longer use money
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or any other means to bind them to me. I must treat them better; instead, you realize we need more of those intangible things, we need to invest more in our emotional connection. This is why, in the articles I’ve written
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in the past, I always emphasize one point: once the relationship between father and son, or parents and children , is no longer based on the economic or insurance-like support for birth, aging , sickness, and death, the culture and structure within the
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family will undergo significant changes . Because whether you like someone or love someone, it’s not to say oh, just because we share a blood connection, I must necessarily feel very close to you—that’s not certain.
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Instead, you have to earn mutual understanding, recognition, liking, and trust through your own efforts.
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That’s why, back in the 80s, when we first started watching American TV shows—I don't know what you all thought—I was stunned that sons and daughters could call their fathers and mothers by their first names. To us Chinese, I found that very shocking at
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the time. But if you think about it carefully, they don't rely on the idea of, " Because I am the father, you must like me." It’s okay if you like me, it’s okay if you don't, but you must obey me in
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every way—we used to see this as a natural, heaven-ordained duty. But in American society, most people feel that since there is no inherent economic expectation between parents and children, then, in order to build and consolidate family affection, it must rely on truly
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equal communication and interaction. This is why your experience with children in American society is actually...
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American society has gone through a century or two, and as a result, their relationships have become truly purer.
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However, we must be careful, as this requires learning. Having good family or marital relationships and the healthy development of emotions is not innate; it requires learning. Because in many situations—for example, there’s a psychological term that’s quite popular lately, especially in the
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US—it’s called "emotional blackmail ." This is precisely why, because when you have nothing else left but emotions, how else do you constrain your partner, your children, or your parents? You use emotional blackmail.
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To express it, for example: I really want my child to be good to me, but as I just mentioned, I can't control them, so what should I do? I need to, for instance, constantly cast myself in the role of a victim. Always making my
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husband, or the children or parents feel like they owe me. Oh, right. Right? Always turning yourself into a victim.
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Pitiable. Being pitiable, you make them feel morally and emotionally responsible for your victimization. And that evolves into many tragedies; pure emotional relationships are not easy, they really must be learned. Yes, that really is the case. That is to say, which is why
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I say love needs to have some pragmatism. Sometimes, we still think it’s, say, a relationship of economic support, but shrouded in a layer of emotion; it seems decent and respectable, but when that substance is stripped away, leaving only the bottom
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line... In fact, it becomes very difficult; it actually requires, truly requires, both sides. Some say "after many years, father and son become brothers," as Wang Qi once said. I have a friend who immigrated to Canada, and he told me
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their medical system is quite good. Why is that? He said, "Look, I see how these foreigners interact with their fathers, even when the father has had a stroke or something." He said in the hospital, there are specialized caregivers, and their service is
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supposedly quite high-quality, keeping everything neat and tidy all day, and the son drives to the hospital every Sunday to chat with his father for the whole afternoon.
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Really chatting just like brothers. Watching ball games or something. Watching a game together, it actually sounds like a pretty nice feeling.
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Yes, of course, there is another system in the US that relates to what we just discussed, which is that the inheritance system is different from China's; we have historically...
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Shared equally among sons; no matter if a son is good or not, as long as he's a son, he gets his fraction, that is guaranteed. But in the US, it relies entirely on the will. Mhm, how you write it.
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How you write it? So this, more or less , provides a bit of an incentive.
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As long as I haven't written, I haven't yet... How the property is divided in my will.
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The children don't necessarily know. So it gives them some incentive. The last sentence is just you. You have to be on good terms with the old man, right?
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Competing for favor. So now I understand, the letter Professor Chen wrote to his daughter is also a form of emotional blackmail.
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Thank you, thank you, the boss is here, Boss Yu. Hello Boss, hello Professor, hello Mr.
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Wang. Of course, today we have an even bigger "Wang"—Mr. Wang. Oh, Mr. Wang, it’s been a long time, haven't seen you in forever!
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Mr. Wang, "may you live a thousand years"—you're making it sound like you're trying to see me off! Like, "Why are you still around?" No, I get these WeChat messages from Mr. Wang every day. Not only does he swim, but he walks 10,000 steps—
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10,000 steps every single day— reporting to me daily. That’s not the most; 10,000 steps is when it's enough.
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When it's not enough, it's still over 8,000 steps. Over 8,000 steps is still impressive!
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I couldn't even walk 8,000 steps in half a year. The first time I met Boss Yu here, I felt she looked a bit like a young...
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Look, we love people who grow up looking like this. Yes. Hmm, and what was your thinking behind this androgynous style?
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It’s about the unity of inner and outer self. I’ve heard so many legends about her, like when Mr. Tan Yuanshou stood by the curtain and watched her sing once, he exclaimed, " Oh my, isn't that Meng Xiaodong?" That’s the feeling, so her nickname
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is now "Little Donghuang." But I heard you weren't actually very happy about it. No, no, no, because Meng Xiaodong has been my idol since I was a child. In the past, as everyone knows, the Peking Opera world was dominated by men
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playing female roles, but later, many female "painted faces" and female "old men" appeared, with Meng Xiaodong as the representative.
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After the founding of the PRC, professional national academies stopped training female "old men." Why?
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I don’t know why either, but professional academies just stopped training them afterward. Really? When I went to take the exams in the 90s, that was when I started getting into Peking Opera.
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But later they said, "No matter how talented you are, we dare not admit you ." Then they felt my qualifications were truly excellent.
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So they added a clause to the admission brochure saying that those with exceptional qualifications could be admitted on merit.
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Ignoring gender? Ignoring gender. So, gender actually mattered before that? It did. Of course, out of the 1,000- plus students who applied in my year, I was the only girl studying the "old man " role, so that clause was actually
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changed for me. So I can let you hear a piece, hear a piece of what? It’s for the movie* Forever Enthralled*directed by Chen Kaige.
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In it, isn't there a romance between Mei Lanfang, played by Leon Lai, and Meng Xiaodong?
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They sing a duet. Naturally, the one playing the "dan" role is Mei Baojiu, right? But back then, who did Baojiu pick to sing as Meng Xiaodong? He picked Boss Yu, so there is this scene you can...Asking about the world we
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live in. No way. No matter how I look at you, you're a man. No way. No matter how I look at you, you're a woman.
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Well, that really is a question. So, Mr. Wang, let's continue with this topic regarding Chinese Peking Opera— the issue of men playing women and women playing men. From the perspective of world culture, how do you see it?
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Hmm. It reminds me of something I once heard Premier Zhou say about the past—let's call it the old society. Women, back then, didn't go on stage to perform.
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They faced so much resistance and many setbacks. So, in many places, it was mostly men playing female roles. Mm.
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And then in Yue Opera, it was mostly women playing male roles. They didn't want mixed-gender troupes; it was considered very inconvenient, or even immoral. That was the prevailing view.
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I recall something quite amusing. In the 80s, the French Minister of Culture —when I was in the CPPCC, he was no longer the minister, but he had hosted me in Paris years earlier—suddenly asked me about this, wondering if there
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were any famous men in China who played female roles today. I explained it to him just as I had heard from Premier Zhou, saying that in the past, due to feudal society, it was inconvenient for men and women to mix.
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Mm. But he argued with me. Mm. He said that's not how he saw it.
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Mm. He said that men playing women and women playing women have different styles and charms.
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Mm. Men playing men and women playing women have their own styles and charms. The Chinese tradition of men playing women must never disappear; it's unique and special. That's right.
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When I heard that, I was... What do they call it now? Mind-blown. Mind-blown. Mind-blown. I thought, he's right.
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Mm. Why? Because in foreign pop music, if a female singer comes out and adds a bit of a male voice, it's absolutely incredible.
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The whole audience goes wild. Actually, I think this is a very unique performance tradition, and it's not just popular in China but across Asia, like Japanese Kabuki. Right.
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Don't they have many men playing female roles? Take Bando Tamasaburo, for example; hasn't he been very famous in China these past few years? Things like this, what are they really? This shows that I think there is some logic to it.
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There was a period where, perhaps as Mr. Wang said, we felt, "Oh, this is a decadent practice from the old society, " but what is the actual reasoning behind it? From an artistic perspective , when a woman plays a man, she can
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sometimes perform better than a man. Where is the logic in that? Because men are...but when you are performing and you need to consciously shape that ideal or artistic male image, a woman grasping and observing men from a different gender perspective often
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understands better than men how they walk, talk, sound, and what their emotions are like; and the reverse is also true. So if you look at all the famous opera roles in the past, almost all of the most famous ones—we see
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that about half are in this situation, and there is a reason for it. Correct.
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So, Boss Yu, as a woman playing these " old men" roles, do you have any special feelings?
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Actually, Mr. Wang, you know that in our Peking Opera training system from a young age, it doesn't start by asking you to figure out gender.
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Mm. Or figure out personality. Mm. Or figure out emotions. We train the technique first.
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Mm. Technique, right. Yes. Rhythmic speech. Mm. Singing, footwork, circular patterns, arm movements; as long as you follow the specifications of this system, you assemble these parts into a performance on stage, and the audience will believe this is Zhuge Liang.
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Mm. This is Cheng Ying. Mm. So we develop the technique first; after completing the technique, we gradually go on to figure out personality and character emotions. Mm.
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So I think the reason Peking Opera is great is because, over these 200-plus years, it has continuously refined this technical art.
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Mm. And only then can it become something that everyone believes in. Yes. The Chinese system is very interesting; that's why it's considered one of the world's major acting systems. For example, Italian bel canto divides into tenor, baritone, bass, and soprano,
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mezzo-soprano, and contralto—it divides into these vocal registers. What is it called in our Peking Opera?
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What, "big voice" and "small voice"? Mm, for the old male roles, we call it the "natural voice." Mm.
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Mm. Like how I am speaking right now, it's this. Basically, for example, teachers train us to lower the larynx.
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Mm. Ah, support from the dantian, the lower core. Use the chest cavity fully, and there's head resonance, nasal resonance, and mid-to-low tones; all of these are used to bring out that old man's voice. That is, that is the Lao
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Sheng role. This is called the "true voice." As for the Dan role, it uses falsetto.
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Mm. Then there is the Xiao Sheng role; the Peking Opera Xiao Sheng role is very interesting, it combines true voice and falsetto.
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It's called "Dragon-Tiger Voice." Oh. Dragon-Tiger Voice? What kind of sound is that? I, I can't imitate it, but sometimes, because this Xiao Sheng role mainly portrays young men going through puberty.
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Mm, this— Young men going through puberty. Everyone knows the feeling, it's that, sometimes the voice cracks—The vocal style of the Xiao Sheng is modeled on that phase of a boy's voice change and was created from it.
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Then, after adulthood, men become the Lao Sheng role, so that's the "true voice." Oh, this is so interesting.
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It's interesting, right? This is so interesting. I’m an outsider here, let me ask you.
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For example, in "Silang Visits His Mother," right? In that one, Yang Yanhui, He has a line called "Xiao Fan," is that fake?
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Let me tell you, this is also very interesting, thank you. It's so beautiful, I think it sounds really beautiful.
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Yes, this "Zhan Li Gong Men Jiao Xiao Fan" is a special highlight in "Silang Visits His Mother," called the "Ga Diao ." Ga Diao?
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This Ga Diao seems similar to what we call the high C or something in Western singing, the highest pitch.
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It can't get any higher. Mm. Many people sing it entirely using their true voice.
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Oh my. I sing it using my true voice. Some actors, Lao Sheng actors who have richer vocal techniques, when they hit the Ga Diao, they use something similar to...similar to using that special technique.
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Mm. It’s a sound somewhere between true and fake; singing the Ga Diao that way is also very pleasant, but that depends on each person.
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Do we have any musical accompaniment? Mm, "Li Gong Men Jiao Fan," something like this, something like this.
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But we amplify it on stage. Guo Jianguang's "Sheng Zhen Lu Dang" also has a bit of this. It's also a Ga Diao. Old listeners in the past would say, for this play "Silang Visits His Mother," in the first act, called "Gong
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," they just listened for this Ga Diao. Before that, the back-and-forth singing might make them doze off, but after 40 minutes, they'd wake up: "Hey, wake up, time to listen to the Ga Diao." Oh.
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What if the voice cracks? Oh my, it's all for the best. Oh. Many can hit those off-key notes, oh, you see, I've noticed that in the Peking Opera circles of the past, there was this unique sense of face, or
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perhaps dignity. I often hear stories like, for instance, someone...... hearing someone else perform something, and just saying, that’s it. I’m never singing this play again in my life.
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I won’t perform this play again. You see, there’s just no way to compare to them.
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Hey, what kind of mindset would you call that? Is it narrow-minded, or open-minded? I think that is actually a very noble mindset. For example, Mr. Tan Fuying.
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Right. After hearing Ms. Meng Xiaodong’s final performance of "Searching for the Orphan" in 1947.
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He said, "I will never perform this play again." Never again. It seems Mr. Mei Lanfang mentioned in his autobiography—sometimes it’s hard to understand this state of performance.
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He said that in his later years, every time he went on stage... It was like heading to the execution grounds, right? Like going to the gallows. Why would such a great performing artist have that feeling?
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He explained that, according to the masters, the higher the level or realm you reach, the harder and more difficult it feels. Especially when you think about how many people like me and look forward to my performance; I can’t let them down. But perhaps
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because of advancing age, or simply lacking the strength, your condition isn't always at its best, so you’re terrified.
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Terrified of letting the audience down and letting myself down. I recently read a novel.
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It’s called "The Protagonist." Mm. It’s about Qinqiang Opera. Written by a friend of mine.
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Because he has always been in a troupe. Mm. He wrote about these opera performers, and it's set in the new society, after the Third Plenary Session of the 11th Central Committee.
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Mm. What did he write about? He wrote about the hardships of performing. Mm-hmm. Because in that Qinqiang Opera, I don't know if they have things like fire-spitting or such.
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That fire-spitting. That pollution to the lungs, to the... What's called fire-spitting, where you spit fire from your mouth, and a ball of flame comes out.
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He said the protagonist, every time they finished performing that, they would go back and vomit first.
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Vomiting until their guts felt like they were coming out, and then going back to perform again. There was one person who finished this, and afterwards, they couldn't move. They couldn't move, but the applause from below was so loud, they had to go back
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out. Mm. The troupe leader just said, "Carry them over there." Even if they have to be carried, they have to go. It's like a wheelchair, but they can't move themselves, so several people have to carry them.
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And right while he was feeling envious, he closed his eyes and passed away. Oh my.
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I was just thinking about that, you know, that rigid rule of the profession .
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Oh, it’s truly “the play is greater than the heavens.” Greater than the heavens—one must even die on stage. Isn't that what I always say?
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Although he was talking about Qinqiang opera, he understood the actors so deeply. There were plenty of ridiculous things, like mutual resentment, jealousy, and low-level squabbles, but when it came to performing, they would risk their lives for it.
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Yeah, oh, they just couldn't lose their professionalism. Hmm. That's right. The many lessons and rules we were taught—this was a very important part of them.
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Honestly, kids who grew up in opera usually didn't have much formal education. Hmm. But their professional self-esteem and their grit to endure hardship......
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were truly remarkable. Hmm. So from a young age, we were told: " Don't mess around; once you're on stage , you are the star." You can fool around off-stage, but once on stage, you act as if no one else
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exists. Hmm. The play is greater than the heavens. For instance, we often have cases where someone has a herniated disc...
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Hmm, yes. ... or a fracture. And they still go on stage. That happens all too often.
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Hmm. But there is also the dark side of human nature here—or maybe not even dark, just the realities of human nature. I feel that when you say “the play is greater than the heavens,” the next question is: whose play is
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greater than the heavens? You see, sometimes I feel that in the past, many stars—well, star versus star...
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Oh, that's just... " A king does not meet another king." Or perhaps they knew each other too well.
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They couldn't share the same stage. Actually, do you think this Chinese opera troupe culture—because I hear directors telling me that this culture has a profound influence...
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Don't be fooled by modern movies and TV shows; they believe that the atmosphere in many production crews is still just like an old Chinese opera troupe: everyone listens to one person.
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This one person might be a big director , in any case, they must be a big shot, or a major star. Hmm.
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In the end, everyone else just respects them as the leader. It’s that kind of mechanism.
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Do you have any personal experience with this mechanism? I have a very deep understanding of it.
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Our Peking Opera is truly an art form that centers on the star. Hmm. It all revolves around the star. Why was I called "Boss Yu" in the past?
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It was actually an imitation. I really yearn for those days when the stars would lead their own troupes and become bosses. Today we are......
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called "people's artists," but that doesn't quite fit. However, deep down, we still have that "boss" complex.
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Hmm. I also have a "boss complex." How does that manifest? It manifests in that I also want to be a star performer, supporting my own troupe.
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Hmm. Everything I do is ultimately determined by audience feedback. But on your journey of growth, I noticed you once struggled against the system; you were very young, a deputy head of the Shanghai Peking Opera Troupe. Hmm.
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That was when you were in your twenties right? Yes, and back then, feeling like a star , I wanted to go out and lead my own troupe. I thought, why can't I be like the opera troupes of the past? But what
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did I run into in the end? It was that no one would work with you.
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You wanted to leave, but every theater and media outlet you encountered was part of the system.
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Hmm. So what does that tell us? Does it mean that the old opera troupe model is no longer suitable?
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That purely traditional opera troupe model is no longer suitable today because of market demand; nobody—or at least not many people—needs to watch opera every day, but today's audiences have to watch movies every day.
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Hmm. The scale of that market is completely different. Yes, that’s very obvious now. Looking back at my youth, during the late Japanese occupation period, there was a famous publication called " 369 Pictorial," which came out every three days—have
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you heard of it? I’ve heard of it, I’ve heard of " 369 Pictorial." The printing was quite poor back then, but every time you opened an issue, it was full of Peking Opera stars.
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Exactly. Right. The Peking Opera stars of that time were like today’s top celebrities. Exactly.
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Back then, Peking Opera stars even filled the role of beauty pageants. Hmm. Yes, and they even replaced movie stars . Hmm. The current attention given to the Peking Opera world can no longer compare to that.
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And there’s another issue: the stage for purely commercial theater is actually very small. Very small. Mr. Wang, you have lived through a culture, including the peak and the glory of Peking Opera. Today, some say it has declined or that its
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audience is shrinking. What is your take on this? That is also hard to explain in a few words. Is the audience smaller? Of course, it’s much smaller than in the past. Other things are so much easier to accept, right? Popular TV dramas—I
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watch TV dramas and soap operas more often than I watch traditional opera myself. But to say that opera is…… that it has declined, that’s not necessarily true. Hmm, how so?
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For those who truly love it, nothing can replace it. How could a TV drama ever be a substitute? If you really delve into it, if you are a sincere opera fan, TV dramas are like chewing wax—it's practically a joke, just
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something to fool people. Honestly, this is also a point of curiosity for me; today we say we love watching TV dramas, but I've never seen anyone as obsessed as the Peking Opera aficionados of the past. I'm very curious about this, because I’ve read
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many anecdotes, for instance about a bank chairman from that era, or the well-known Zhang Boju, one of the famous "Four Young Masters" of the Republic era.
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His amateur performances, including those of the Qing princes from the late Qing and early Republican periods, could reach a professional level. The most satisfying thing for them was, "My lifelong dream, no matter the cost, is to have someone like Yu Shuyan, Mei
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Lanfang, or Wang Yaoqing perform a play with me." Mhm. Good heavens, I remember one year for Zhang Boju’s birthday, all the masters came to celebrate. Because Zhang Boju was a famous amateur, it's said he truly had a deep study of opera
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, but he had one problem: on stage, his voice was small. Only the front row could hear him; the back rows couldn't.
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Anyway, that was his issue. He was a great amateur, and when I saw the poster he had printed at the time, all the "Four Great Dan" were performing with him.
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Performing that play, Oh, he felt that was the pinnacle. The pinnacle—how obsessed were these amateurs? What was this addiction all about?
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Peking Opera amateurs are a very specific group of people. Mhm. Many of today’s amateurs, I mean, Mhm.
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Rarely go to the theater to watch a show. Oh. Because amateurs have a certain kind of pride. I don't know why, perhaps it was the same in the past, but amateurs feel their glory Mhm.
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Doesn't come from watching a show; my glory is that I can also sing the opera you, the master, are performing.
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And I can skip buying a ticket to see your show, but I can invite you to dinner, or I can become your formal disciple—this is their glory, so it's very interesting.
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It’s a lifelong pursuit; once you're hooked on opera, it's for life. Mr. Zhang Boju was like that for his whole life, only listening to Yu Shuyan perform, watching nothing else.
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Yes, he is considered a successor of the Yu school of art. A successor of the school, exactly.
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This, You can tell just by comparing it now. Our older generation, including the national leaders.
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Mm. They all loved to listen to it. Mm. Yeah. Chairman Mao loved to listen to it. Mm.
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Liu Shaoqi listened to it. Mm. Premier Zhou Enlai was relatively broader in his interests, as he was also interested in movies and stage plays—he definitely attended all the plays by the Beijing People's Art Theatre—but of course, he was also
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very passionate about Mei Lanfang, Zhou Xinfang, and Cheng Yanqiu. Later on, Deng Xiaoping also listened to it, and I know he had very good personal relationships with many of our great artists.
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Premier Zhu Rongji plays the huqin. They say he plays it very well now. Because sometimes we would play with Premier Zhu; he would play, and we would sing.
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Oh, it really reached the level of a true enthusiast. Yes, he is absolutely well-known for it .
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It's satisfying and joyful. He certainly finds it satisfying. Yes. Oh. This kind of satisfaction isn't...You can't just spend your days eating good food or watching movies.
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He—he can really immerse himself in it. That’s talking about the upper levels . Mm. As for the common people, I was telling Boss Yu about this before. What left the deepest impression on me is the Chinese New Year.
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Mm. During the Chinese New Year, when you walk through these alleys, the shops are all closed. How could anyone be doing business during the New Year?
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Only pharmacies and doctors were open, which of course was necessary. The windows were all covered with wooden boards.
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But inside, the gongs and drums were resounding. The huqin was being played. Regardless of whether they sang well or not, they were always singing.
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They would just keep singing right there, from day until night, just singing away. So I think this is a very unique phenomenon; you've never heard of, for example, Western opera lovers ...
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wishing to get up and perform it themselves. Only in Peking Opera does this exist, nowhere else. You might love watching, say, a typical movie fan—if you ask fans of someone like Angelababy today, "Would you want to act in a scene she
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played?" You wouldn't. Maybe only Jack Ma would say, "I want to make an action movie," which makes him a modern amateur performer, but generally, people wouldn't. This is really so special.
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Hey, would you say this is a charm of what we call urban performance art?
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Savoring it repeatedly. Savoring it repeatedly. Like many young people today, they might think, "What's good about that? The tunes all sound the same." To their untrained ears, it all sounds the same, but is it really all the same?
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He’s looking at the feel of it. So, is that why we say it's about the feel? It’s the same. For instance, take every line of singing you learn; is it always standard?
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Well, of course, there are certain routines to follow. But if your performance is different every time, where does the difference lie?
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For example, today— Mm. I went to bed late last night. I was supposed to hold this note for eight beats.
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Mm. Can I just do four beats today? That is the difference. What does "eight beats" mean?
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Eight measures of rhythm. I could hold it for eight beats, but if today I don't feel like fishing for applause, I can just do two or four and move on, right? Of course you can, that is the difference.
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Mm. See, there’s this interactive relationship there. What do you mean by "not feeling like fishing for applause"?
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It doesn’t matter; if I wanted it yesterday but don't want it today, that’s perfectly fine.
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How can you think that? Even I as a host am curious, how can you just decide whether or not to get applause?
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A great performer is like that; as long as I want the audience to cheer—The applause is guaranteed. They must have that ability to control the stage; that’s what makes a good performer.
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If you try for a long time and still don't get applause, you’re definitely not mature enough, or at least you don't understand yourself, the audience , or what they want.
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Mm. It’s not like those actors we know who get on stage and just beg, "Give me some applause, give me some applause," right?
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That really is quite tacky now. That’s like a show host cracking a dirty joke; it would be...
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That’s too embarrassing. It really wouldn't work. Right, you know from singing that specific line that it's bound to get a good response.
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Of course, there are many factors involved. It could be experience. Mm. It could be through a teacher’s instruction. It could be through reading written materials, or watching recordings; you know this part is the highlight of the whole play, so how
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could it not get applause? Mm. Actually, most of it comes from experience. If I’ve gotten applause here in the previous 100 shows, then it must be a spot that earns it.
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Mm, one more thing to add is that the Peking Opera enthusiast crowd is very interesting; these people collectively elevate the cultural temperament and level of Peking Opera, just like in Mr.
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Mei Lanfang's era. Mr. Yu Zhenfei had Zhang Boju. Mr. Mei had gentlemen like Qi Shan and Feng Guang.
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These were great intellectuals. Figures like Mr. Chen Qiusheng and Luo Ying, these intellectuals, were all great fans who spared no effort and sought no reward.
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They served as volunteers for the art of Peking Opera and its market, which is why the industry enjoyed that prosperity for several decades.
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Actually, you know, many kids today are naturally more interested in games than Peking Opera, but I sometimes feel that's just how people are; there are many kinds of dishes in this world. As the old saying goes, having a broad
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appetite is a blessing for yourself, right? I may have a particular fondness for this, but the issue is, to have this preference, you need a sharp sensibility. I feel that—well, actually, I can say that before I was 40, I didn't know how to appreciate
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Peking Opera either, but it's strange, back then I used to drink only cola and never water.
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But once I turned 40, I naturally started drinking tea. So I think some things aren't just about metabolism, but rather a very natural process. Yes, you see, after I turned 40, I loved listening to opera more and more. They say that after 40,
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you can finally "savor the cold." It means you can ponder the hidden flavors within. For example, I often tell people that there was a time I suddenly realized the beauty of the physical form and posture in Peking Opera, and you know what it was? I was
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watching a film by a Chinese director from back in the day named Fei Mu.
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Fei Mu directed a movie about Mr. Mei Lanfang, hmm. And then, the film disc that person gave me kept lagging—it was like it was raining, just glitching and freezing constantly. But because it kept freezing, I ended up amazed; I was
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truly astounded, that is to say. Mr. Mei's every single movement— Hmm. When it froze—since the machine kept skipping and lagging—I discovered that every posture he was frozen in was the most beautiful shape. Hmm.
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My goodness! I later realized that Mr. Qi Rushan must have spent all his time by his side refining these postures. No wonder they say that when Mei Lanfang went to perform in the U.S., the moment he stepped on stage, the foreigners
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were stunned. Just imagine, wearing something so beautiful—if you put yourself in a foreigner's shoes, just looking at his physical form, even without listening to him sing, you would be stunned.
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This kind of aesthetic beauty is truly extraordinary. Actually, back then, the influence of Chinese Peking Opera on the world truly brought about a revolution in Western theatrical art.
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You see, traditional Western theater, as we just mentioned regarding the director system and so on...
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But what exactly should an actor be doing? What kind of existence is an actor? In fact, it was after seeing Mei Lanfang in the US and especially the incredible reaction in the then-Soviet Union that a whole new revolutionary
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theater movement emerged, centering on the actor. There is such a school of thought that it must start from the actor's training; directors or even playwrights can actually evolve from the actors. Even today, many Western plays are still structured through the
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actors 'improvisational interaction. Yes, it influenced Western theater. It influenced Western theater, but I want to return to what we just mentioned about the "ticket enthusiasts ." I think there's something interesting there. I recall that the West isn't entirely without such fans,
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though opera certainly lacks them. What does have them? Classical music does. This brings me to how the relationship between ticket enthusiasts and the art of Peking Opera can complement each other. For example, everyone says 19 th-century Vienna was the "City of
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Music" because all the major figures of Western classical music were there. However, the main reason it became the City of Music was that it had the largest number of first-rate audiences.
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Mm. For instance, if Liszt was on stage playing the piano, he couldn't play poorly. Why? Because the people in the audience all knew how to play.
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Right, we all knew how to play. Exactly , I bought a ticket to come in, so you had to play well. You—I only bought a ticket because I wanted to see you. So, I think the most glorious era of Peking
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Opera was probably just like that. Yes, it was. Everyone in the audience felt they could sing along, or at least keep time by tapping their thighs. When they heard a good passage, they’d tap their thighs. In such moments, you on
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stage couldn't afford to be bad. Right, and I want to say that, at present, the market that best resembles that time...
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... for Peking Opera audiences is still Tianjin. Don't get me started on Tianjin. Tianjin people all know how to perform crosstalk, right?
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Ah, when we perform in Tianjin, the audience knows exactly when to applaud —whether it's for the entrance, at the end of a melodic phrase, or even in places you’d never expect; they'll still give you a shout of approval.
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Take Tianjin audiences, for example. There is a play, you know, "Qi." Mm. It's "Wuji," specifically "Wuji." There's a "jiangshi" in Wuji.
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A "jiangshi" movement. The "zombie" move is to fall backward, falling with a specific posture. Stiff as a board, falling straight to the ground.
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Usually, after the fall, the audience will say, "Oh, this' zombie 'is great!" and applaud and cheer. Tianjin audiences are true connoisseurs.
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Connoisseurs. Connoisseurs. They are experts. Real experts; they know exactly what the punchline is, and they know if this move won't ruin your performance, you might even...
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They are giving you extra energy. But this also brings fear; in Tianjin, you are especially afraid when many people cheer for you.
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If they cheer you on and you're not up to scratch, if you slip up, after they finish cheering, they will really make it impossible for you to stand, running to the front of the stage pointing at you, "Is this what you call acting?"
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They are really scolding you. They are. Exactly, they are scolding you. So, these aficionados are quite different from the fans we understand today.
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Look at that day when we talked about how it's truly different. Fans can't hear anything; they are quite fanatical. Right, your idol, even if they sang out of tune, they won't let you criticize them. "How dare you criticize my idol!"
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But look at the aficionados, I might be a fan, but don't treat me like an amateur; don't insult my intelligence.
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This is actually what we call artistic criticism today, a very healthy atmosphere, even if it's expressed in a rather extreme way.
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So this is very interesting, which is why I said back then that I'm becoming an old-timer, just a bit out of touch.
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I tell them, "Fan" is a buzzword now, but I prefer the term "soulmate." You know, there is that famous idiom " Zhou Lang's Tune." It’s said that Zhou Yu was very knowledgeable about music.
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During a banquet, the zither player intentionally played a wrong note. Zhou Yu would then glance over.
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The zither player actually felt he had found a soulmate: "You understand me, you truly understand." It's like the Chinese story of Bo Ya and Ziqi, "High Mountains and Flowing Water"—the idea that without you, I’d smash my instrument, as no one in the world
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understands the mystery of my music. Ah, that kind of soulmate. Some even say they did it just to catch Zhou Yu's attention.
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Mm. Deliberately playing a wrong note. Once the note is wrong, Zhou Yu glares at him. Ah, he sees Zhou Yu; Zhou Yu is handsome, charismatic, and has such an aura. When I'm playing the zither, can you see Zhou Yu's face? He plays a
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wrong note, and he immediately turns his head back. Oh, so we’ve actually stumbled upon an answer as to why Peking opera masters feel so much pressure on stage.
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It's because they know the people in the audience understand the art. They can't just lip-sync or try to fool the audience, thinking, "Whatever, you guys won't know anyway." It's a relationship between the performer and the listener.
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Exactly. You might even say there's a sense of equality in their status. A relationship.
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That’s perfect, the "equality" you mentioned is spot on. If I listen to you, it's because you’re truly talented and I admire you. If you show ...If you show poor skill, I’ll let you know immediately. And I really like
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that feeling of being a "fan" in this context. What do we mean by "amateur" hobby? What is amateur? Nowadays we tend to see "amateur" as something negative, but it's not. It just means it's not their profession; they don't
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make a living from it, yet they love it just as much. And they might even reach a certain level of artistic achievement, right?
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You know, that is a big issue. For example, I remember when Cui Jian came on my show, he always talked about this . He said, "It’s been so many years, and no matter where I perform, the audience just shouts for' Nothing to My
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Name '." He said, "I’ve performed' Nothing to My Name 'over 8,000 times, and that’s not really the problem." What is the problem? You start to feel like the number of true connoisseurs is shrinking. Why? There is indeed a
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problem, which is... He said, "I need to advance in my music ."" For instance, my latest music is actually more musical, with better orchestration and arrangements. I’ve gone further in my profession. But once I’ve gone that far, the people who
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loved' Nothing to My Name 'back then... ""... haven't kept pace with me in terms of this music."" So, they’ll feel like they don't care for what I’m doing now."" Right, they just want to hear the one they are most familiar with, and that's
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it." So, in this situation, I don’t think that just because you love listening to these songs it should be labeled as a " hobby." What is a hobby? For example, what is a true hobby? Take playing tennis, for instance. You watch a
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tennis master, but you play it yourself , and you also love watching the tennis open. That is a hobby. You love listening to opera. You sing it yourself for fun; that is a hobby. But if you just say you like someone's
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movies and sit there watching them on your computer, that's not really a hobby. A hobby means you love it yourself, you try to do it, and you reach a certain level of mastery in it.
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It's a process. That's what a hobby is. For example, if you like literature, then you try to write it yourself; that’s when it becomes a hobby. So, I think what I miss about the past isn't just Peking Opera, but that glorious
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era of Peking Opera. It represents a time when many people actually had such hobbies. Today, everyone just consumes; they don't have hobbies.
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So, in anything, you can't just look at the short term; you have to look at the long run.
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The long run isn't enough, either. You still need more, right? Just being safe isn't enough; you need luck, and you need to be convincing. Is it that having this alone isn't enough? You also need to have unique features. What
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does that add up to? Changan Ford. Changan Ford Edge, original car show. We'll continue our chat after the break .
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The high-quality work we present. Comes from countless scientific simulation tests. 2018 New Edge, New Achievements.
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Ford, Go Further. As an audience member , can you say that, to some extent, he possesses a high level of aesthetic cultivation in Peking Opera?
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Well, of course. Even though he's not in the industry, Ah, such people make creators feel very touched. Indeed.
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But the pressure—for example, Professor Wang, you are a writer. Yes. For instance, I heard a writer say something interesting. He said, "When I write a novel, I don't really care what the majority of readers think. What I fear most—what I find embarrassing—
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is what my friends, whom I value, think ." Actually, the friends he values are those he believes understand his work, and know what he is doing. This is like , sometimes, for example, when we create a program, you hear two kinds of
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comments. For instance, I intended to grow an apple. Mm-hmm. But many people criticize you for not growing a pear.
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Casual remarks don't matter. Whether you say it's good or bad, you can use it as a reference, of course. But if someone you truly respect, or someone you also really like, someone who is a reader, expresses disappointment in you, you
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still feel quite discouraged. I completely agree. Because I have a bad habit when I make my own program. I make book programs. What bad habit?
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I’ve often been pointed out by viewers many times that I have a catchphrase I frequently use, which is, "Everyone knows this." But then it turns out no one knows it, and they ask , "What does that even mean?"
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So the "common sense" you write is because of this? Right, right, that's roughly the idea.
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Then they would say no one knows, implying, "Are you trying to show off?" Actually, no. That’s a bit like being at the top of the contempt chain.
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It’s really not. Why is that? I later figured out what was going on. For example, I recently did a show about Xuanzang's journey to the West, talking about his Records on the Western Regions, and in it, I mentioned how the
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Faxiang school of Consciousness-only died out in China. It was getting quite deep, yet I still used that catchphrase : "Everyone knows this," and quickly people criticized me, "Who knows this?
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What is the Faxiang school?" Why do I speak like that? It's not grounded. No, it's because, as you all have mentioned , when I make this kind of program, I’m thinking of...
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those few dozen people who actually understand the subject. The experts and scholars whose books I’ve read—I’m afraid they’ll watch my show and make fun of me.
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Mhm. So I dare not say too much, and I just think, "Oh, I won't go into detail here , everyone knows this anyway." By " everyone," I mean those few dozen people.
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They are always in the back of my mind. It’s about who you assume your audience is. I think Boss Yu is facing this now, where you realize you can't just assume you're performing for that minority of connoisseurs.
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What about the masses who don't have that ear, don't have that discerning eye, and don't know what's good—how do you attract them?
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Actually, this is a matter of personal growth that I care a lot about. In my professional journey, my teachers—for instance, I have about 20 teachers— roughly 12 or so of them are amateurs.
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Uh-huh. You know, especially regarding Master Yu Yan’s Yu-style art, because among professional actors, no one purely inherited his technique on stage.
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Whether it's Yang Baosen, Tan Fuying, or Meng Xiaodong, they all eventually established their own schools; there’s no pure "18 and a half" style of Yu Yan left.
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To be honest, there really aren't many teachers left for me to visit. So, it’s those intellectuals and great connoisseurs who were around Master Yu, represented by people like Zhang Boju, that I look to.
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Mhm. They preserved their work very well, specifically the singing and recitation parts, keeping them safe.
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Mm. Many of their successors were intellectuals, so many of my teachers were like that. They wouldn't teach me how to gesture or how to move, they wouldn't teach me that, but they would tell me the difference between this
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aria and that one. This is "Yu" and that is not "Yu," what is the difference here? It’s not a matter of the musical notes, it’s a matter of the artistic flavor.
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Can you, can you enlighten me? I’ve always been curious about what they call the different schools. For example , take Mr. Yu Shuyan’s art, which has been admired for a long time, but compared to the other schools you
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mentioned, could you give me an example of a line of singing to show the difference in flavor? To someone like me who doesn't understand, it sounds about the same.
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Ah, take the more common schools of the *laosheng*role for instance: the Yu school. Mm.
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The Tan school. Mm. The Ma school. Mm. The Yan school. Mm. What else? Could you just pick two or three schools and tell us how they differ in singing or performing the same line?
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For example, let's talk about " Searching," this opera. Searching. " The Orphan of Zhao," which Mr. Ma Lianliang sang. " In the White Tiger Hall, I received the order." Mm.
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Mr. Yu Shuyan also sang it, so there are two versions of the same passage.
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Mm. The Yu school version goes like this. In the White Tiger Hall, received...The ...Or...der. It...is...just...like...
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this. That is Yu. For example, Mr. Ma Lianliang's greatness lies in the fact that when everyone was following the Tan and Yu lineage, he introduced the Ma school.
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Mm. He was actually very clever. He thought , "I want to sing this opera too, but how do I make it different from Mr.
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Yu's?" He put a lot of thought into it. For instance, he made changes to the stage appearance and expanded the script. In "In the White Tiger Hall," he added a word. " In the White Tiger Hall, I received the
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order." This became a representative work of the Ma school; this right here is the Ma school.
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It actually came from Yu, with an added word, and then through his own design in vocal delivery.
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I, I feel like, is it that Ma is more mellow, while the Yu school is more undulating and rhythmic?
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It's more direct. Yes. Ah. If you can feel the difference in flavor, you aren't tone-deaf at all.
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Anyway, I just feel that the knowledge within Peking Opera is like a vast ocean. What we comprehend, discuss, see in the papers, or even what’s written in textbooks, is only a small part; there is still so much that hasn't been
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studied enough. It's me. I'll say it. I'm worried about one thing: could it be that for Peking Opera today, I'm also quite conflicted. We all know it is an art form that is profound and vast. But is there a contradiction
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today? If I try to promote it to young people to get them to watch, the more I tell them it's "art," the more scared they get. What does that mean, exactly?
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It means that, for example, why do they watch web series today? They find it convenient. After I get off work, I want to relax.
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It's easy, right? But the moment they think it's "art," they feel they have to take a bath first, burn some incense , and prepare their mindset to go sit there and watch art. But that’s not how people used to watch plays.
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Yes, yes. Actually, Peking Opera is a very entertaining thing. Exactly. It’s just that there are so many more entertaining things today, so it just ends up looking like "art." Actually, look at Peking Opera. " My lady, no need to be so fiery; listen
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to me." It’s just "who are you, who am I, bring it on!" It’s incredibly easy to understand. I’ve actually run into this same problem today while trying to popularize Peking Opera. You often try to talk about Peking Opera to
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kids who know nothing about theater, who only watch web variety shows or play video games, and you run into exactly the problem you mentioned.
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Actually, I don't think it's a problem, and I would tell them: You can keep playing with the things you used to, but you can also learn a skill, and that skill is called overcoming the difficulty of appreciation. Mm.
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Your own soul. Might, because of learning something refined or learning something niche, you will receive.
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Some inspiration. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Professor Wang, I’m quite curious about this, as your age is your advantage. I often wonder, looking back over your 80 years, seeing the tides rise and fall, and seeing so many
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things become popular. How do you feel today, overall? For instance, we hear many contradictory views now. Some of the older generation say: " It's going downhill. People are getting more simple-minded, it's all fast-food culture, everyone's getting dumber.
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What will happen in the future?" They are burning with anxiety. But others say the world is always changing. Many arts that existed before are gone now, and many things from Ancient Greece have vanished. Vanishing is just normal metabolism. Some things we cherish, no
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matter how much you love them, It might also have a day when it comes to an end. At your current age, how do you observe this history?
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It is like this: decline is normal. Just like human mortality, but at the same time, people don't want to die, and others don't want them to die either. If they are a good person or an expert in a certain field, we don't
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want them to die. As for Peking Opera, I don't think it is in danger of dying out at the moment.
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It is not as popular as it used to be, but that doesn't mean it is dying. It is impossible; many plays are still being performed, people listen to it on TV, and there is one thing that gives hope: China still has a vast rural
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population. Take the region east of Beijing, or Tianjin, or Hebei Province; it depends on the place. Some areas favor Hebei Bangzi, others prefer Beijing style or Pingju, but Peking Opera still has the widest reach.
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People in the Northeast also like Peking Opera, and people in Shandong like it too; it has many strongholds.
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Regarding what Wendao said, perhaps some young people nowadays don't like things that require too much effort.
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Exactly, things with a high barrier to entry. When has a problem like this not existed?
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Hmm. I have expressed many such views; I believe that this internet addiction and the internet itself are making people idiotic. Hmm, of course, a publisher in Guangxi did a survey asking people to "tucao"—I might not even pronounce this word correctly—is
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it "tu"? I always thought it was "tu."" Tu jiuzao" or whatever, "tucao." The book that everyone said was the most unreadable at the top of the list was " Dream of the Red Chamber." The four great classical novels are all
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considered unreadable. Hmm. International classics are also considered unreadable; "War and Peace" is unreadable, "Anna Karenina" is unreadable. If you are referring to those who participated in the survey, then it's hopeless. What about Hawking, who just passed away?
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Hawking. Even Hawking said that if artificial intelligence continues to develop like this...Whether it's good or bad, I can't distinguish anymore. Besides, you can't predict things too far in advance , saying, "Whatever is destined to die will die." So what should we do? I
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don't want it to die either. I hope many things of ours won't die. Oh, but it seems you feel there is a trend that in the future, AI will become more intelligent while real humans become more unintelligent?
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No, that is a different topic. It’s like this: The people who create the programs for this artificial intelligence are the most cutting-edge, smartest people.
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The smartest people. You, as a user of these artificial programs, are nowhere near as capable as the people who created them; you're far behind. To be successful, the creator has to treat you like an idiot.
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The simplest way to put it is that a characteristic of American products, and the reason they're popular, is...
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That even an idiot can use them. Yes, exactly. Even game developers say the same: "Don't treat users like they're smart." Everything is becoming more convenient. Driving is becoming easier for the user, isn't it?
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Eating is becoming more convenient too. Yes, it is. Everything is becoming more convenient. Meanwhile, the creators and designers behind them are becoming smarter and smarter, and they're the ones playing everyone else.
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Oh, that’s terrifying. And that’s why... In the future, this won't just be a wealth gap, but...
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A gap in intelligence. This reminder from Mr. Wang suggests that if we want to avoid becoming simple-minded, we need to grasp some of humanity's past wisdom. You know, Wendao, I saw a teacher talk about this the other day, and I think he made a
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good point. He said one word was mistranslated, causing a lot of misunderstanding: the English word " classical." We translate it as " gǔdiǎn," but he says it should actually be "jīngdiǎn"(classic). " Gǔdiǎn" often makes people think of old, decaying things. But now I
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understand what "jīngdiǎn" means— like what Boss Yu mentioned today. It's something that, over the long river of time, generations of the smartest people, the most adept in their fields, have polished and refined repeatedly until it becomes truly classic. For instance, to some extent,
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could someone like Jay Chou become a classic? It’s possible, but we don't know yet because not enough time has passed, right? A current popular singing style might be okay, but has it gone through 500 years of people constantly refining it, over and over,
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until it reaches a level like what we call classical music? That stuff represents perfection; it's like the national treasures we see in museums.
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Exactly. It represents the highest wisdom condensed by generations of humanity. Even if the barrier to entry is higher and more difficult, if we search in this direction, perhaps we can avoid the fate of being treated like fools by
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artificial intelligence in the future. Listen to more high-quality works, it might just delay your slide into idiocy . Thank you.
Topics:filial pietyChinese cultureelderly carefinancial independencesocial welfarefamily supporttraditional valuesmodern societymarriage systempersonal freedom
