The Netra-tantra and its Yogas - Gavin Flood

Lecture by Prof. Gavin Flood on the Netra-tantra and its yogas, exploring tantric Shaivism, textual history, and yogic practices.

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Key Takeaways

The Netra-tantra occupies a unique position between orthodox Vedic and transgressive tantric traditions.
Textual and iconographic evidence date the Netra-tantra to the early medieval period (700-850 CE).
Tantric yogic practices involve complex visualization, recitation, and ritual internalization of divine forms.
The text integrates panentheistic cosmology with detailed yogic and ritual techniques.
Scholarly work continues to produce critical editions that clarify textual variants and historical context.

What the video covers

Professor Gavin Flood introduces the Netra-tantra and its yogas, focusing on tantric Shaivism and its historical context.
The lecture discusses the classification of tantric traditions, including Vedic orthodoxy, Ati Marga, and the nature Tantra.
Flood highlights the textual sources, including Nepalese manuscripts and Kashmiri versions, noting their similarities and differences.
The dating of the text is estimated between 700 to 850 CE based on iconographic evidence.
The lecture covers the complex yogic practices described in the text, including visualization, recitation, and internal worship.
Discussion includes the symbolic use of body and mind in tantric ritual, such as burning and recreating the divine body.
The cosmological and theological framework of the text is panentheistic, emphasizing God’s immanence and transcendence.
The text’s relation to other tantric and Shaiva traditions, including influences from Buddhist tantra, is explored.
Professor Flood and colleagues are working on a critical edition of the text based on Nepalese witnesses.
The lecture addresses the role of triads, chakras, and yogic powers within the tantric system.

Chapters

What is the Netra-tantra and why is it significant?

The Netra-tantra is a tantric Shaiva text dated between 700-850 CE, significant for its unique position between orthodox Vedic traditions and transgressive tantric practices, offering detailed yogic and ritual techniques.

What yogic practices are described in the Netra-tantra?

The text describes complex yogic practices including visualization, recitation, internal worship, and symbolic rituals such as burning and recreating the divine body.

How does the Netra-tantra relate to other tantric and Shaiva traditions?

It integrates elements from various tantric traditions, including influences from Buddhist tantra, and is positioned between orthodox Brahmanism and more transgressive tantric paths like Ati Marga.

Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

Speaker A

Uh, good morning everyone. Theo said tonight's lecture, which confused me somewhere. I'm very sorry that I'm reading from my notes this morning's lecture because I saw, I saw you at home, so I knew you weren't abroad. You never know what Zoom will do anyway.

Speaker A

what Zoom do anyway um uh good morning everyone and it gives me great pleasure to be introducing Professor Gavin flood who I mean this was he's definitely merits the cliche if he really doesn't need an introduction I'm sure everyone joining in knows

Speaker A

Um, uh, good morning everyone, and it gives me great pleasure to be introducing Professor Gavin Flood, who I mean this was, he definitely merits the cliche if he really doesn't need an introduction. I'm sure everyone joining in knows exactly who Gavin is, but I will give a brief resume.

Speaker A

in the faculty of theology at University of Oxford and has also been the academic director of the Oxford Center for Hindu studies uh his professor of Hindu studies and comparative religion at Oxford and currently I think probably keep that got that role but also senior

Speaker A

Um, perhaps best known to lots of people, well other than through his books, which I'll come on to, but as, uh, for his work in Oxford is, uh, from 2005 I think been in the faculty of theology at University of Oxford and has also been the academic director of the Oxford Center for Hindu Studies.

Speaker A

not afraid of taking on the big subjects and uh and then a couple of books sort of more directly relevant to us as Scholars and students of yoga with the Aesthetics self and the body um which again I'm sure are well known

Speaker A

Uh, he's professor of Hindu studies and comparative religion at Oxford and currently I think probably keeps that role but also senior research fellow at Campion Hall. Um, he's published extensively over a long and, yes, highly productive career. I will just name a few books which I'm sure most people know: An Introduction to Hinduism and The Blackwell Companion to Hinduism.

Speaker A

nature nature Tantra and its yogas so um thank you once again Gavin and over to you very generous introduction and um thank you both Theo and Jim for inviting me to give this lecture and thank you all for

Speaker A

So not, not afraid of taking on the big subjects and, uh, and then a couple of books sort of more directly relevant to us as scholars and students of yoga with The Aesthetics, Self, and the Body, um, which again I'm sure are well known to lots of you.

Speaker A

works great put you up at the top of the picture there we are so anyway today I'm going to speak about the the need for a tantra and and its yogas and um I've been working on this for um well I

Speaker A

Uh, he's worked extensively on Shaivism over the years and that is the, the, the topic under discussion today which Professor Flood is going to be talking to us about today, well connected to it anyway in the, the nature Tantra and its yogas.

Speaker A

a I think it's a wonderful article and then since then um in 2006 um sitting in one of Alexis sanderson's classes uh some day vasudev was there and uh we were chatting in a coffee shop afterwards he says why don't you do

Speaker A

So, um, thank you once again Gavin and over to you. Very generous introduction and, um, thank you both Theo and Jim for inviting me to give this lecture and thank you all for coming along on, um, on a Tuesday morning.

Speaker A

two colleagues Biana Veronica Olson and Raja and katiwada we're trying to do um an addition of the text based on the um Nepalese Witnesses so the um what are we I'll be talking about it is is is is

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So, um, oh I share my screen and then I can show you some pictures. We're having to get used to this new way of, of working. Can you see that everybody?

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time show if I can get this to work ah here we are so Alexis Sanderson over the years has has mapped these Traditions now this is an anemic I mean although it's although it's um I've got this from

Speaker A

Works great. Put you up at the top of the picture there. We are. So anyway, today I'm going to speak about the, the need for a Tantra and its yogas and, um, I've been working on this for, um, well I got interested in this donkey's years ago when I was, um, actually I was an undergraduate at Lancaster University and then there was Helen Bruno wrote an interesting, an article, a summary of the text and that sparked my interest and that's a, I think it's a wonderful article.

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focused on text like the Manus smriti the laws of Manu about rules of Purity what the brahmins should and shouldn't do who they can and can't hang out with what they can and can't eat and that kind of thing and then with you've got

Speaker A

And then since then, um, in 2006, um, sitting in one of Alexis Sanderson's classes, uh, Somadeva was there and, uh, we were chatting in a coffee shop afterwards. He says why don't you do something on the nature Tantra, on the chapter on the subtle yoga. So I, I got interested in that. So I got these, um, manuscripts from, um, Nepal, um, and I did that first chapter and then it got bigger.

Speaker A

three which are identified with these different groups the partial patas so probably everyone's heard of now the um I won't go into the details of all this only as so far as it's relevant to the text that we're looking at

Speaker A

And so when I'm now with two colleagues, Biana Veronica Olson and Raja and Katiwada, we're trying to do, um, an edition of the text based on the, um, Nepalese witnesses. So the, um, what are we, I'll be talking about it is, is, is, is, um, based on those, on the Nepalese, um, text. It's almost the same as the Kashmiri one but there are interesting differences as we'll see.

Speaker A

patterns so they were highly successful and Wealthy monastic Institution on the other hand you've got these what we might call the tantric Traditions the maximum the natural marker the path of mantras that's really tantric shaivism so that's the what technically by Tantra

Speaker A

Um, so that's the background and, um, here we go with the yogas of the nature. Time show if I can get this to work. Ah, here we are. So Alexis Sanderson over the years has mapped these traditions. Now this is an anemic, I mean although it's, although it's, um, I've got this from Alexis's mapping, he's representing an indigenous understanding of, um, of, of the traditions and their classification.

Speaker A

eternally distinct realities and which provides the ritual basis the ritual substrate for the tantric Traditions the daily ritual at the daily writes that um dawn dusk and the midday uh and then in reaction to that you've got these what will you call the

Speaker A

So around the time of having a group to see. So on the one hand you've got the Vedic, the Vaidika tradition, orthodox Brahmanism focused on text like the Manusmriti, the laws of Manu about rules of purity, what the Brahmins should and shouldn't do, who they can and can't hang out with, what they can and can't eat and that kind of thing.

Speaker A

sex the tricker the color and the crama now the nature Tantra is between these if you like it's not it's not a transgressive text but nor is it a strictly shy versus Hunter text because it it's not dualistic in the sense that

Speaker A

And then with you've got, um, what's up Lexus of the identified as the Ati Marga or the higher path or the outer path which regards itself as transcending the Vedic tradition and this, this has three layers of Alexis has identified as it Marga one, two and three which are identified with these different groups, the partial patas, so probably everyone's heard of now the, um, I won't go into the details of all this only as so far as it's relevant to the text that we're looking at.

Speaker A

color marker the path of the family of goddesses and that leads into the SRI Vidya now there is influence of the sharks or traditions on the nature Tantra as we'll see and um some people think including de Vaca

Speaker A

Um, these were ascetic groups and they were highly successful in medieval India and there's a great book by, um, Romula Tapa called, um, um, so not and that's about a Shaiva monastic institution and temple in Gujarat which was run by the partial patterns.

Speaker A

around 700 to 850 CE and he bases this on um internal evidence of iconography within the text so a three-headed vikunta um and various other iconographic details which could only have occurred during this period now in uh Nepal that the nature Tantra

Speaker A

So they were highly successful and wealthy monastic institution. On the other hand you've got these what we might call the tantric traditions, the maximum, the natural marker, the path of mantras. That's really tantric Shaivism. So that's the what technically by Tantra we mean the mantra marga and this comprises two subdivisions: the Shiva Siddhanta which is the core tantric tradition, the backbone of the tradition if you like, which was, um, metaphysically dualistic which says that the soul, God, and world are three eternally distinct realities and which provides the ritual basis, the ritual substrate for the tantric traditions, the daily ritual at the daily rites that, um, dawn, dusk and the midday, uh.

Speaker A

was composing that Paul the link to Kashmir but certainly the the Kashmir version sorry The Nepalese version seems to be the older version because when it got to Kashmir it was um the text was cleaned up was was was made more more

Speaker A

And then in reaction to that you've got these what will you call the non-Siddhanta, non-Siddhantic or traditions. They used to be called Kashmiri Shaivism but, um, as Alexis points out that's, that's a bit of a misnomer because these traditions weren't restricted to Kashmir and in there you've got six different cults or six the tricker, the color and the crama.

Speaker A

we were reading it and in his commentary he seems to have two readings for some verses before him and one of which is The Nepalese version one of which is the kashmiri version so I think that Shema Raja had had access to both versions of

Speaker A

Now the nature Tantra is between these if you like. It's not, it's not a transgressive text but nor is it a strictly Shaiva Siddhanta text because it, it's not dualistic in the sense that, um, the goal, it's, it claims is becoming one with Shiva. So it's not becoming Shiva Tuliya like Shiva but it's becoming one with Shiva or and, um, it's not transgressive as we'll see.

Speaker A

author uh not the author of the text but he was the one who was responsible for its its um copying in Kashmir he was also he was a minister in the king's court he was also the author of an

Speaker A

And the other, um, path that Alexis has identified, the color marga, the path of the family of goddesses and that leads into the Sri Vidya. Now there is influence of the Shakta traditions on the nature Tantra as we'll see and, um, some people think including Devaka Acharya here thinks that it could be classified as a Shakta text and my colleague Olson, um, I'm not sure about that myself but anyway we'll, we'll see.

Speaker A

and its role in the in um and its Royal role as it were that's called religion and the state Shiva officience in the territory of the king's brahmanical chaplain that's readily available online now our text was copied at the bequest of vishwesh

Speaker A

So the text and it states it's dated by Alexis to be around 700 to 850 CE and he bases this on, um, internal evidence of iconography within the text, so a three-headed Vikunta, um, and various other iconographic details which could only have occurred during this period.

Speaker A

abayamala who was sick and and it was copied for him in which case it succeeded because he died in 1255 from an earthquake in Kathmandu it lasted a long time now the security Dara is the Scribe of the of the of the witness that we've

Speaker A

Now in, uh, Nepal the nature Tantra occurs in Nepal in a, in a different recension to the Kashmiri edition and the older version is recorded in Nepal. So it was, it's difficult to say it was probably composed in Kashmir and went to Nepal but it's possible that it was composed that Paul the link to Kashmir but certainly the Kashmir version, sorry, the Nepalese version seems to be the older version because when it got to Kashmir it was, um, the text was cleaned up, was, was, was made more Paninian, was made more, more, um, legitimate in terms of Sanskrit and, um, it's interesting that I had, I did think that Shaymaraja may have been the one that, um, cleaned up the text but I don't think so anymore because, um, we were reading it and in his commentary he seems to have two readings for some verses before him and one of which is the Nepalese version, one of which is the Kashmiri version.

Speaker A

bright Fortnight of the month March or April 320 which translates into uh 1200. I Googled it the other day and it gave me two possible dates the 25th of March or the 1st of April 1200 so that's when

Speaker A

So I think that Shemaraja had had access to both versions of the text. So it's called the Amritas for the Tantra, uh, or that and Ritesh for a Tantra of course but in our text in the Nepalese version it calls it the Amritas Tantra, um, wrongly and Vishweshwara was the, um, author, uh, not the aut.

Speaker A

now the goals of yoga in in this text are the goddess asked the structures that the goddess asks Shiva what is the method by which all the suffering of beings in the three worlds are liberated she's also in chapter two

Speaker A

and Shiva answers that it's due to the I the nature the I Mantra that beings are freed and the threefold method the threefold method now what is this threefold method that's what I want to speak about mostly today but I'll just

Speaker A

talk about other things as well so the eye Mantra it says is the best as the eye is the best of the senses it illuminates all that exists it's the very soul of all mantras it says so think of Lord of the Rings it's the

Speaker A

great eye shining eye now the um I think I'm going to let the text speak for itself so I'm going to give you a load of quotes you've got the Sanskrit in the handout most of it anyway so the um King's princes and queens are

Speaker A

repeatedly afflicted by sudden death and killed by the snares of time along with all living beings beginning with brahmins afflicted by all kinds of faults and fears if they're singled up by the Brutus yakshas grahas bargainies brutal marches Etc Darvis

Speaker A

the Americas by replicas upas models pishachas and also others black mirakshas and millions of okra has and they are free by simply bringing to mind what I am about to tell you so it regards itself it's very important

Speaker A

because it all these Supernatural agents that oppress people um are kept at Bay of they free human beings from those forces now I put darvias in I don't know what that means Davies Davies I put that in Brackets

Speaker A

because um it also occurs those there's a there's a another text called the Ashana Shiva gurudeva Palatine the ritual Manual of Guru Deva which was um composed in Kerala now it has almost the same list of supernatural beings that possess you and

Speaker A

Derek halsey's Davies Davies um I suppose that's plural Davies I don't know anyway so that was interesting this list so the text goes on today I will tell you about the threefold method which is definitely the best it bestows

Speaker A

the best Supernatural ability City and Liberation mugshot to be attained by Mantra yoga and knowledge so those are the three methods I speak about that which is made of Mantra which possesses a threefold Perfection complete associated with its

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own sealed mudra the Supreme that which protects all some of this I don't know what it means but we'll talk about that so the goals of yoga in the text are protection from these supernatural beings City of magical powers Moksha Liberation

Speaker A

immortality and identity with shiver so whether these are all compatible with each other and is an open question does it does it indicate um that well two things that the text is is is is very very composite and it's

Speaker A

lots of beautiful things coming in or it could indicate that the text is trying to be true to its Universalist agenda it's um and incorporating a lot of different things different goals into itself so you've got um levels of practice here

Speaker A

um uh the term Diana is used in the text to be visualization as it is in most tantric text it means visualization meditation as visualization but it also I think it refers to not so much to visualization which is perhaps

Speaker A

more of a Buddhist practice but uh to the to the recitation of the visualization text so I think it probably means that um not only visualization but perhaps recitation as well and then it speaks about these three levels of practice gross subtle and

Speaker A

supreme and this is a way of ordering I think this is a way that the text uses to order a variety of practices that it's aware of it at the time of its writing that it's trying to incorporate

Speaker A

into this Universal system and it's concerned with the sardic of a practitioner and it assumes the the Cyber sitanta structure of initiation and where you become the um two initiations the the Samaya deep Shield where you become initiated into

Speaker A

the tradition and the Nirvana diksha which guarantees um liberation and these practices are for the yogi and for the king or somebody doing it on the yogi doing it on behalf of the king and it's concerned with initiation and

Speaker A

consecrations so chapters four or five and daily rights chapter 3 are concerned with that now they're quite thin chapters so it's probable that the text is just assuming that the the reader knows those practices from other texts so you've got a hierarchy in the implied

Speaker A

hierarchy of texts in which it assumes that lower Revelation if you like um so it's concerned with protection through Mantra chapters one and six particularly constructed of mantras chapters 2 22-23 and salvation through the different deity systems chapters 9 to 13.

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and it's concerned in chapters 6 7 and 8 with the three yogas that I want to talk about the gross meditation chapter six the subtle meditation which are identifies with yoga chapter um seven and the Supreme meditation chapter

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um age now here Diana is used not as visualization but as um something as yo as a practice I think um but that's what the text calls them and also in the chapter seven which I want to talk about it talks about

Speaker A

the temperature procria the normative tantric system uh as found in the trigger for example and the Kula prakrian the transgressive um Cola system now the color is transgressive whereas the potential prokarya isn't but there's no transgression in this text but it

Speaker A

does distinguish between these two forms of practice with regard to the subtle body as we'll see in a minute now the text itself doesn't mention these words but shaymaraja does in his commentary and it does it seems to map

Speaker A

perfectly onto the chapter seven this distinction so one suspects that the text itself is aware of this distinction and the um color is concerned with the flooding of the body with nectar the nectar even more Talent immortality and

Speaker A

this is the Amrita plavanum and I'm wondering um ambiana as well but we we weren't wondering whether this uh idea of the flooding of the body from with the nectar enters mainstream Hutto practices Jim will know all about this so many

Speaker A

places according to uh Brianna Bianna karenica Olsen replaces what he calls a Bindu dhara now they're holding semen in the head so he thinks you've got two different models operating in this text and I'll talk about that in a minute

Speaker A

and later Traditions contain both retain both models so Shema Raja uses this word um Amrita plavana in his commentary now chapter seven is about the visualization of the subtle body and it's an early representation of the chakra system that everyone knows

Speaker A

um and it I think it may be the earliest occurrence of the word chakra used in this sense I was talking to someone in Nepal actually they said no chakra in this sense occurs in patanjali but I don't think it does I haven't actually

Speaker A

had time to check it out but um I'm pretty skeptical that it would occur now but maybe I'm wrong anyway chapter seven let's I'm just going to translate that read of the the text of translation I'm just going to read it and let it speak

Speaker A

for itself so the Lord spoke now I will tell you about the excellent Supreme subtle visualizing meditation which comprises the sequence of six the 16 supports the three objects and the five voids the twelve nuts the three powers the path of

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the three abodes and the three channels having realized the body of one with beautiful hips as a body that follows the path of 10 channels and 35 million channels by the seventy two thousand channels and as a body overrun by a host

Speaker A

of channels riddled with diseases in the fire the yogi then fills himself or another with the nectar of the subtle visualizing meditation proclaimed as the highest he becomes a Divine body bereft of all disease so that's an interesting

Speaker A

passage it's um complex all these systems overlaid on each other three of this 12 of that and all the rest of it but the basic idea is that you've got a hierarchy in the vertical axis in the body and these

Speaker A

different things are all mapped onto that vertical axis and um the body is pervaded by these channels by these nadis but they're not only good things they're also riddled with disease they're full of impurity and you have to purify them in in this

Speaker A

practice um and you do it for another for the king as well presumably the yogi fills himself or another it says as well and if you've got the Sanskrit in front of you can you can read it in there

Speaker A

uh in the handout that I've given so okay that's the I'll be returning to some of that in a minute but then having become the Mantra aham it says established there that's in the base Center the um the base uh the lowest uh Adara

Speaker A

moving in a stable manner in its own Circle the yogi should establish his sub-perception and let's use the word abhimana that's interesting it's often translated as Pride but I think it means a sense of self your sense of who you are as it were

Speaker A

um in the place of birth by producing Vibrations by his own self-arising vibration a rather good one by distinguishing levels of being now this is interesting that there's a term Bava beta which occurs throughout the text we've had long discussions about

Speaker A

what it means but here I've rendered it distinguishing levels of being though Yogi should join it self perception to the root base from that place by applying the needle of sound he should Pierce those novels through the application of a subtle visualizing

Speaker A

meditation having pierced the 16 centers and the 12 knots the one who has mounted the path of the central channel should penetrate steadily towards the highest so I'm sure you're all familiar with this idea of the vertical axis of the

Speaker A

body and this power moves up through the central axis like a a needle of sound it says piercing these levels so it's kind of sound moving up through the central Channel um and the yogi who has entered that

Speaker A

highest condition becomes equal to Shiva the all-pervading due to due to the power which has been stirred up who drives away all diseases completely or which drives away all diseases completely and having filled the interior of the Heart Again by that path

Speaker A

who causes the penetrated Elementary matter of the channel of The Elixir a bit of a mouthful obtained by meditation to rest there having obtained this experience you should cause that Elixir to flow quickly from that place and leave it remaining everywhere so his

Speaker A

pierce the the the the the top of the head and then the um nectar from that's contained in the top of my head flows to the heart and from the heart floods the body um so you've got this nectar of

Speaker A

immortality which floods the body so this is the the the sh what beyond the cut what what beyond the calls that the um a shot to model if you like of the of the flooding of the body as opposed to

Speaker A

the other model where you retain this power and the crown of the head in the head um or top on the head um so it then says one's own body entirely filled with the Supreme infinite nectar and with the joy of non-death and none

Speaker A

old age becomes completely filled with the subtle sound both internally and externally oh beloved due to the Conqueror of death mantra and by The Yoga of the visualizing meditation then that Divine body is attained quickly and truly in no other way oh goddess

Speaker A

so that's the chapter seven um well that that's that's the the um and that's the um the sharper method it also talks about the the the other one where you just leave the power at the crown of the head

Speaker A

um I won't talk yeah I'll I'll if I talked for about another 20 minutes then that will give us plenty of time for questions of discussion um so having attained the chapter concludes having attained the condition without suffering

Speaker A

the yogi should discover through his own experience that his own true nature is Shiva whose nature is Will cognition and action having attained the subtle state of the Lord of immortality the yogi becomes immortal then having become immortal he

Speaker A

will become the Conqueror of death without doubt now so you've got these 16 supports which are the supporting vowels probably um that you've got these three focal points or objects and Sun Moon and fire according to Shema Raja

Speaker A

you've got the five voids which I think are also known in tantric Buddhism and you've got three powers ichagyana and Creations will cognition on knowledge and action powers and you've got three luminaries in the sun moon and fire again possibly

Speaker A

100 clear what they are but I think that's what they are and the three channels this is the pingala which we get in later at a yoga text so the sun moon of fire quite interesting you that occurs in later

Speaker A

Traditions there's inner Visions so the yogi goes beyond them in this inner Journey which is also a journey through the cosmos so this idea in the text that the the the the cosmos the structure the hierarchical structure of the universe

Speaker A

is recapitulated in the body so that Yogi goes up on this journey through the body which is a journey through the cosmos and there are recent um parallels to this idea I was reading something but in the world of Swami couldn't 19th century

Speaker A

uh shift dial Singh talks about the Moon being the the sahasra what do you call the the Thousand petal Motors the sun is what he calls chikuti which is beyond that and beyond that the great emptiness beyond that is um

Speaker A

uh Moon Sun on fire so I was wondering if there was if there's an echo in that tradition um of this of this earlier kind of system of these innervisions but I'm hesitant about reading back modern ideas and back into the into the ancient

Speaker A

texts but sometimes it can be useful yeah and these they do offer possible interpretations which is why contemporary anthropology field work can indeed inform um our understanding of the meaning of texts and vice versa no this is interesting that we um

Speaker A

in chapters in the cash verse chapter 7 verse 13. it uses the Kashmir version uh uses the term um uh the rich IH one should emit or what is it the other way around sorry it's the other way around the rhodiac one

Speaker A

should hold uh the the power in at the crown of the head and the Nepalese rendering uses their hia one should emit so I'm wondering if um I thought this was interesting this this this distinction it could mean that they

Speaker A

both really is talking about this meaning the same thing but I it did provoke thought that uh perhaps the different the use of these different verbs referred to different models the flooding of the body or the retaining of

Speaker A

the power in the in the head does this reflect a shock to anthropology as Veronica Olson argues um so the Amrita plavenum is the flooding of the body with nectar um yeah as civilica also argues that it enters the mainstream pattern year ago I

Speaker A

don't know the details um or the other other things I was interested in with with social and burning so you've got you've got um flooding drying and burning and these are practices of visualization in which the impure body is imagined as being

Speaker A

dried up and then burned to ashes followed by being flooded with nectar arising from the union of Shiva and Shakti at the crown of their head so I think this is referred to so there's a another technical learn of attention

Speaker A

which is later that I don't know the dates that we don't have a frame but it's it's probably much later than the nature Tantra and you've got that practice here too so repeating the saving syllable on 12 times a Jurgen should retain the breath

Speaker A

in the middle Channel then you should dry out the body with the wind seed syllable uttered for the drying up of the body and again as before having exhaled the inhale breath you should retain it then you should burn the body with the

Speaker A

burning seed syllable called the burning of the body and again as before having exhaled the neck in having exhaled an inhale this should retain the breath you should meditate on the flooding and should flood the body from head to toe

Speaker A

oh God s with the nectar held in the head following the union of Shiva and Kundalini so it's possibly much later that I don't know the date of that but it's much later I think but anyway it's interesting there's this Sanskrit for

Speaker A

you there we can refer back to that if you want to so you've got three closely related practice here you've got plavana are tested in the natural Tantra now how do you yogurt plaven are performed in conjunction with shoshana and Dahan of

Speaker A

um drying and burning drying burning flooding and um go the other way around burning no I no I can't remember the sequence and the um the pant-tentric ritual practice of the Buddha shouldi the ritual burning of the body which is

Speaker A

performed in the Shiva sidhanta every day um you've symbolically burned the body in your imagination and then you recreate the body as Divine through within yasa Recreation of a Divine body internal worship where you visualize the deity and external worship where you perform

Speaker A

Puja to an external icon um now this point of note this is possibly the earliest occurrence of the chakra in the sense of bodily Center and interestingly piano Veronica Olson's two bottles of a person implied in this text in the yogic and the shakter image

Speaker A

of the holding the lecture or flooding the body with nature I wouldn't like to make too much of that but it's interesting so oh yeah there's a 18th century famous these are I just thought I'd show you the pictures the

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chakra man and from the Welcome Institute Magnus skip probably about 18th century and there's two of them there's another one there 18th century chakra um so anyway I think these are possible this might be the earliest occurrence of

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this the word chakra used in this sense this is a very curious picture there's a figure it looks like it's falling off of the ladder or something that figure on the right I don't know what he's doing the black figure

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seems to be falling off the ladder I don't know anyway now so that's the um subtle meditation the next chapter is on the Supreme meditation I'm just going to describe these practices so what do we mean by Supreme we mean closer to Transcendence

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more immediate access to the Supreme the yogi becomes shiver and the yogi shines forth a shiver who is the omnipresent All-Seeing and all doing and I will speak about that condition which uh build which there is nothing else he says

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um and Shiva says having attained that state the yogi becomes Aegis and deathless through identification with it it is the Eternal which speech cannot express this is an interesting passage that cannot be seen by the eye that cannot be heard by the ear that the nose

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cannot smell that the tongue cannot taste the sense of touch cannot feel that cannot be thought by the Mind free from all color and taste yet it is endowed with all color and taste immeasurable and Beyond the senses so as

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apophatic kind of theology here but when it is attained the text goes on oh God it's the yogi has become free from old age and death through their exaltive practice and supreme detachment due to the abandoning of passion and

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hate due to the destruction of greed and delusion no beloved due to the abandoning of intoxication and jealousy due to the destruction of self-conceit and arrogance the yogi certainly attains the Eternal imperishable Supreme Shiva if he attains that really in the blink

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of an eye then henceforthy is liberated and not born again he may attain this realization by means of the eight nimmed yoga and not otherwise aha so here we've got Ashtanga Yoga eating in yoga is that right well it is and it isn't right it

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reinterprets the eight limb yoga in a new way so it says self-control is said to be the end of the world of becoming Eternal and supreme restraint is constant meditation on the Supreme reality having settled into the middle breath

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between the paths of exhalation and inhalation supported by the power of knowledge posture is abiding in that so it's a rereading it's a it's a it's a new interpretation of the eight limbs of yoga having abandoned the gross condition of

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the breath and so on he should similarly abandon the inner subtle Inner Path after that the yogi will attain the Supreme vibration beyond the subtle and this is called breath control from which the Mind does not move so it's

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it's a it's yeah it's in keeping with the with the text hierarchical understanding that the Supreme yoga is re through the reinterpretation of the yashtanga is going beyond the subtle level and it's realizing the truth of the absolute reality as it were

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so then talks about the fluctuations of the qualities beginning with sound are experienced by the Mind abandoning which the yogi may enter the Supreme place by his own mind this is called withdrawal cutting the Noose of becoming so the

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fluctuations of the mind we all know that from standard yoga um they're abandoned by entering the Supreme place by the power of your own mind and that's called withdrawal and having gone beyond the internet the qualities and the mind meditating on the

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unchanging Lord without qualities who is the direct object of meditation and reflexive awareness the wise know this to be meditation Diana so it's a reinterpretation of the element it's not visualization it's realization it's focusing on this [Music] um

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this eternal object which is also the subject the Supreme self is held is held by the supporting concentration at all times that supporting concentration is defined here as the destruction of the bond of becoming and the placing of Consciousness equally

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in all beings is called absorption samadhi and this is the real meaning otherwise people are befuddled so there we are so having to served the absolute state in the massive Consciousness and unconscious matchup the why is no that absorption to be the

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Eternal nature so you realize this self is um free and absolute having firmly perceived the Supreme State time is cheated and he becomes a supreme Lord the deathless Lord oh goddess it becomes a conqueror of death and time does not

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bind him so that sounds good if you want to refer back to it so that's a supreme condition and now I'll go back to the chapter six which is um one of perhaps the more interesting ones because it's about natric and

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ritual cure so we've got the very highest we've got the subtle now we've got the the gross the stuller yoga and this is concerned with protection from these supernatural beings that it's already listed in chapter two these families of supernatural beings

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who were governed by our chief deities so the vinayakers are governed by vignesha and the mothers by um the different goddesses the different the seven mothers through making valleys making offerings blood offerings to these ablutions fumigation Mantra and Pious works the

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mantrin should make offerings in remote places and at the Junctions of the day and the NT records a number of these practices in this chapter a chapter 19 and in chapter six and chapter 19 uh it says that the practitioners should

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make offerings on the bank of a river or in a cremation ground in a forest in in the ritual diagram of the mothers and in the early morning or at midday and at midnight he should offer plenty of water mixed with rice to them

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uh the offering is to be presented to them and they become satisfied by it for whatever the boundless mothers situated there or near I'm not sure whether any attention star desire to destroy someone then then you should worship the Eternal

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great mothers the seven mothers Mahesh free Kamali vaishnavi so these are famous this is um a 12th century image I think this is from Marissa but I'm not 100 sure you've got uh Vera bandra and um the seven mothers and Ganesha at

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the end um so they're a fairly standard list of these these uh goddesses now in chapter six these goddesses they got them hordes of other lesser deities who cause trouble to people and if someone's possessed or if they're

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sick then chapter six is about how to cure them with mantra so you write the name of the person the person to be protected having written the name of the person one should worship Lord Richard the shiver and the Conqueror of death and he

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swiftly snatches the person from Death truly I do not lie says the text one should offer oblation with white sugar accompanied by Sesame soaked in clarified butter and milk enough fire with kindling of pure wood in a round

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fire pit surrounded by three girdles by this method of great Protection One should make the offering for the person designated by his name and the great power will quickly appear to one who has gone to the mantra for support

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in another formula he may even offer only milk and sugar and the Conqueror of death Mantra may be quickly they quickly conquer death because of the fire oblation and about this there's no doubt so I don't think I've got time to read them

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all anyway oh this is interesting the emaciated body will be nourished or one observing the vowel from the fire ablation by being smeared with three kinds of caraway plant oil I think and with balls of fragrant resin when a wheat man filled with a hundred

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of diseases is cared for then after repeating his name framed by the nature Mantra he will be freed even though by itself ineffective whatever Mantra the wise man repeats framed by the Lord of immortality Mantra then that will

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quickly achieve success so the power of the Mantra on John sir is such that you frame someone's name with it and frame any old Mantra which is any old useless Mantra which is the only matter which has become useless you

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frame it with and then it reinvigorates it and it reinvigorates the person too so the framing Mantra is a remedy for a feeble body oh goddess the recipient will obtain nourishment in an instant and fill out again and having made The Souls of the sick

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person held by the little beginning beginning with sir I think it means on the job site is the short version of the nature Mantra but I think it means it in reverse side jump on so I think you frame the person with in

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um or something drums uh and then he'll be free for more disease obviously there's no doubt so these beings it classifies those those designing to harm and kill the hunter karmas those designing sex the radicals those designing more sex the

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both of commas and those designing meat offerings the Bali karmas so you want to protect yourself from these supernatural beings through this method that is just I've just described now in chapter 20 or chapter 21 of The Nepalese version it's interesting

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because it offers a new vision it's there's a deeper Theology of possession which occurs in this text and the deeper reason why Shiva allows these Supernatural forces to afflict people it's so that they can be liberated so the goddess are shiver

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all these yoganism Brutus and so on they're all your servants why do you allow them to oppress people she says and he says I'll let you into a secret it's the jurgenis kill people as a sacrifice to me

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and through sacrifice to shiver they're liberated so this is a kind of theologization if you like in the text of this a popular practices um and the Shiva says in chapter 21 4-10 listen oh goddess I will tell you the

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secret Supreme Wonder from the teachings of the Lord of of the Lord for bad Souls since the malevolent beings desire to hurt living creatures those yogins are really bereft of greed and delusion free from Passion and hate they will offer humans to the god of

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gods for the purpose of sacrifice well there's a there's a theological Innovation for you in the history of Indian religions these um jurgenis kill you but they're doing you a favor they're um because you've become a sacrifice to shiver and thereby

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freed they do not harm for they are without greed without desire to harm they protect the teachings of God the Great bhairava so having gone through chapter six and all these other stuff about how to get rid of these beings how to

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protect yourself from them in this we get this esoteric interpretation actually they're doing you a favor the the Servants of the Great bhairava and then it says why are souls created just from the self of the self-created one from Shiva the souls are used for

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the purpose of sacrifice to the Lord and not otherwise in that way the Jurgen is free Souls from sin or Fair one for the purpose of Grace the Jurgen is cut the flood of their bonds so so Shiva creates Souls out of himself

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so that they can be liberated through the sacrifice of the eugins but if he hadn't created them in the first place they wouldn't need to be liberated anyway but ugh of the soul is used in this way this the

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the soul goes to the highest Abode the yogan is unite the souls to the to shiver by the three methods they unite the souls by the three Supreme subtle and gross methods either three yogas that I've just described and they do not

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simply kill with their power they don't simply kill you they free you so there's a secret so um I want to rush on because I we haven't got much time um oh yeah the other kind of yoga is

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these Bava betas these meditations on the different deity systems I won't go into this here now um but you've got different visualizations that all these chapters describe but basically I want to wind up in the next minute uh you've got the universe

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as the hierarchy of levels you've got these different Technologic categories you've got this idea of an emanation from a Supreme Being you've got non-jualism as emanation rather than identity I don't think it's a pure um although shemaraja wants it to be he

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wants it to be a pure recognition practice kind of uh text but it's not it's an emanationist text um and the importance of the cosmos is is there from the start so chapter two which is all about the nature matter

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begins with an account of why we need these yogas and what the kind of universities that we live in so you've got this hierarchical Universal Supreme shiver manifest Shiva as Manifest and Shiva becomes Maya and Maya becomes the Earth as in contrast to

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the Shiva sidhanta where it's not shiver that emanates the universe it's um materials Bindu it all comes out of material um subtle material energy or power um and it's set within various theological um problems but the nature Tantra theology

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that you've got a conception of God as Transcendent and Imran bishopma these are words used by Shema Raja in his commentary as an emanation is cosmology and it's it's panentheism God is in the universe God is in everything and it

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offers Paradox as well so he's can't be smelled it can't be spoken about and yet his old words and all smells and all the worst of it and the condition of Liberation is agelessness and deathlessness and it seems to suggest physical immortality

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through these practices and at its heart I think you've got this shakter theology that the jurgenis kill you but they're really liberating you I think that's an innovation in the history of Indian religions so there you've got um the cosmic structure the Eternal

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goddess in one passage is called the goddess Shivam original this is a trans-cosmic reality which manifests as the cosmic order of the Arctic categories of attack was the orders of beings humans animals plants and Supernatural agents that I described

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earlier and it also manifests as the as these um bhava badas which I'll have these sociological functions of saving you all the different deity systems are Incorporated within the within the text so I'll leave you with some questions

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what what's the place of esoteric yoga within the public ritual dimension of the text what is the metaphysics of the nature Tantra is it coherent what are the goals of the nature Tantra which is more important Liberation or

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magical protection and who produced the text and why so I'll stop by sharing the screen thank you for your attention I've been talking for a long time longer than I perhaps intended but um there we are so we've got

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um about 25 minutes or more we got up to half way anyway we've got loads of time for the discussion thank you thank you Gavin thanks for that uh excellent survey of what's uh very complicated text isn't it

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just to say um I have actually just dropped it's loading into the chat at the moment the um the handout that Gavin sent through so if anybody wants to it's a really nice summary so if anyone wants to look

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at it now as they're asking questions they can go ahead and do that so it should have just dropped into the chat now great oh yes sir I've got it thank you um yes thanks Gavin um reminded me I

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haven't looked to the near to turn through for a while but it's some very esoteric material in there it's an interesting mixture and it threw up loads of questions for me I shall try to restrain myself but at least at the

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beginning so just so something in the chat now should I have a look at the chat I think that's just your hands you don't need to look at the chat I will keep an eye on the Q a network I'll

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curate any questions that uh come up but I was wondering I was wondering about lots of things but the in particular the relationship between yoga and Ghana because you said that there's you know there's a three or is it a triple method

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um three the three methods and that the month three yoga and Gian and Guyana sort of highest in the hierarchy and then when you were um demonstrating or showing the sort of reinterpretation of the the eight hungers of yoga when I think a separate

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question is why eight because that's quite unusual within shiver Tundra as it normally is six anger system that maybe you could say something separately about that but I was the way that the different angers are reinterpreted in a almost sort of

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agnostic gyanen way uh that first you rather reminded me of um a text called the upper oxy which is a bit probably quite a lot later uh maybe 14th 15th century um vedantic text which does the same thing it has a a 15 Unger system of yoga

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but for every hunger it just reinterprets it as a sort of um pedantic you know agnostic experience rather than you know so the message is effectively that yeah you everyone's going on about yoga but really the true yoga is this

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it's this vedantic you know realization um I guess that that would perhaps I mean I'm no expert on this but I guess that would be related in some ways to the sort of shiver priority or big girl so I was one but yet at the same time as

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you demonstrated there's lots of material in the text saying how important yoga is sure so I wonder if you could reflect on that I mean do you see and we find this a lot in certain in the sort of text that I work on

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um there's a tension between yoga and Geon and it feels like some sort of uh long-term argument that's being worked out depending on the relative position of the two and and so yes just that that reinterpretation of the different angers

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seem to me to be like a statement of actually you know this is what it's really about for example very clearly at the end with when you were you gave um uh the explanation of samadhi as being the realization of the true state of the

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self you know that shiver Traditions often don't like the idea of a sort of gradual hard work method of yoga that you do in stages and they want just that sudden realization so anyway I wonder if you could comment on that

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that's great Jim yeah you've articulated it very well I think you're right there is a tension if you like between Guyana and yoga expressed here because um I think that's what the text itself claims to be Universal and so it's it

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wants to reconcile these different things but it of course it puts Guyana at the top so the real real light the Real the true realization the deeper one is is the non-realization in a sense because we are already that knowledge that reality

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so we just have to open our eyes to the truth of the matter so it reinterprets these angers yeah why why I I thought that why not the shadow why not the six limbs which is the the shiver thing you

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know they've got six limbs so I it's interesting that it that it it should choose the the um the the eight like eight limbed system so um I suppose in response to that a couple of comments what would be yes I think there is a uh

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a tension if you like in the text and it privileges Yana over yoga um secondly it uses the word yoga in two senses one is to refer to these all three gross subtle and supreme in the later chapters first of all three as

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yogas um but earlier on it referred to them as Diana so um it does some at least in one place it uses yoga as a synonym for Diana and um so it uses the word yogurt in two senses

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one is to refer to all three practices and the other is just to refer to the subtle practice so it could it maybe maybe it's when it just refers to the subtle practice of dhyana as yoga um and the paradiana as Guyana maybe

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that's uh reflecting that tension between the two and it's there explicitly saying actually knowledge of your identity with Shiva is the higher spontaneous realization and all the effort you have to put into visualizing yourself going up through these

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different levels within the body because at the end of the day why bother with all that subtle yoga and even the gross yoga if all you can if if you've just got the eight I mean you just need the

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Guyana you just need the the Supreme yoga really I would have thought to achieve all your thoughts desires all your liberation and Power but um yes I think that's right I was interested in the other texts that you

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were talking about the um the approxia or whatever it was that you said um sometimes attributed to chakra but very unlikely but yes it yeah it does something very similar with this reinterpretation I've never come across that reinterpretation of these yogas before

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so I was fascinated by that and uh um that does seem like an attempt to put yoga in its place I think it's I think you're right yes to put yoga in its place and I was also well lots of other

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questions but what I mean I think you were sort of referring to Hatha Yoga like I mean my I would say that the big difference and from my I haven't again as I said I haven't looked close to it

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the nature for a while but I don't think I mean I'm pretty certain it doesn't have any physical practices in it does it I mean no no physical practices no no nothing quite the opposite almost as you said as you pointed out that the the

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practices associated with yoga are almost exclusively Diana aren't they it's fair yeah it's very unphysical in a way oh it's got It's got the um The Possession stuff and that I suppose that's the ritual diagrams and um framing the person's

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name with mantras and all that but that's the only real practices it seems to refer to [Music] um that's right that's interesting um and then I know it seems also I mean I hadn't really thought about this before but in the course of your talk

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there are lots of Triads keep cropping up and is that a thing that's inherited from the tricker is that a well it could be I'm sort of that it could be yeah it could be a Heritage from the trigger

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yeah but yeah there are Triads all over the place says um and there's um the the the three yogas um and there's three three luminaries there's there's threes all over the place that's right uh um and it Maps more to each other

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sometimes but I was interested that I've never come across anything like this before that this this sort of esoteric interpretation of possession is it's a it's a theologizing of um it's a shiver takeover of popular practices in the sense because it's um

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so yeah this is this is the real meaning this is the deeper meaning that we have of these these popular practices of position and exorcism I mean in those days if your kid's sick you'll do what you can to get them well and I mean

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before we knew about the etiology of disease and so on you you import your mention to um get your kid better you know um that's a very curious of juxtaposition though of quite um sort of jungly sorcery type practices

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with this more rarified yeah that is interesting isn't it and there's not many there's not many there's only issue to my knowledge the ishana Shiva Guru Deva parity which has got stuff on all this possession and exorcism um so I think it's not it's it's a rare

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text because it contains like material so it kind of offers a window into popular practices at the time so it's interesting because it it seems as Alexis shows it seems to address the King on the Royal Family um but it's also got all this stuff

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which seems to reflect much more popular widespread common um practices of Ordinary People and that was another question I had I was wondering um so what do you to what extent do you think the king because there does seem

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to be this Royal connection it's probably commissioned by against do you think that the king or Kings would have been expected to practice these yogas as well to to perform these practices is there any indication now because normally I mean what we find in some

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shiver Traditions is this idea of the the special deeksha for kings that sort of excuses them from doing ritual and having to do anything they just you know by getting the special Raja deepsha then they can uh carry on as kids

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and so forth so is there any indication within the within the text of whether uh Kings would be expected to to actually do these practices as far as I can see I think no I think the opposite in fact

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because of this um there's a slight disagree with Beyond about this phrase for another does it mean the the yogi does these practice is for the for the king I think if if for another means for the king then as it

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probably does then um I think that's the Mansion or the yogi does it for them they don't have to do any as you say they get initiated and that guarantees them Liberation and um King has commissioned the text in order

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to instruct his the sort of yogis who are doing doing the dirty work for him honestly that's right that's what's happened I think yeah I often wonder about what's the material and conditions I mean security who's getting in the ink

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and the who's making the Palm knees for him how much is it getting paid to write it how long will it take him all these questions I'm very interested in but it's very difficult to access those kinds of questions or the answers to

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those questions indeed well I think we've meant to be getting the quest the Q a is where people want to put questions up they go in the Q a people might be confused Gavin because we've slightly changed our

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format at the moment no questions yeah everyone's I think everyone might be quietly reading trying to absorb the the handout as well which is really fascinating no no it is really good I just think it's slightly blowing people's minds but

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I'm I was I was wondering um you know when you're talking about material conditions so you know as a kind of as a modern specialist That's What fascinates me as much as anything else is um uh you know the the different

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essentially the different audiences that this is written for so you've got this idea I just want to kind of clarify that so you've got this kind of like the everyday kind of these are the practices that will help cure the diseases in your

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kid and so on that you were saying that is you know the pragmatic everyday kind of uh uh person and then you've got kind of it's the theology more than for kind of the the ritual Specialists to understand well how does this fit in

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with other things and then also this kind of like and this is what you do on behalf of your kings and your leaders if you need to do that um and I just wonder if you could say more if you thought about back the multi

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the multi-audience nature of the of the text if that makes sense I agree I've I have thought about that and done I think that you're right I think it it it says it's someone it says it's Universal and I think part of that

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universality is it wants to appeal to all levels of society certainly it wants to get in with the Kings and the and the hoisi soisi people sort of things because they'll support it you know but it also seems to me to

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um be aimed at Ordinary People anyone can uh anyone could employ a mansion or use the nature manager them sir um to get a better job or or to get that get cured from a sickness um so I think you're right it doesn't

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appeal to and it's also written so it must be for a literate it must be all of all of these texts must be for a fairly educated audience because they're um they're in Sanskrit they're written in Sanskrit that's right so when we're

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saying everybody we're specifically we're saying Brahmin everybody's yes that's right yes that's right let's see but presumably Ordinary People would have to employ the local Mandarin uh who would who would be able to perhaps read this text or at least know

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these practices hmm [Music] so I'm just wondering again you know forgive me if this is obvious is it as a modern specialist whether the primordial specialist but then does you know do we have any sense of what other layers

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levels of society are doing very interesting I'm really deeply interested in that I don't I don't know the answer to that uh if we don't have the text we don't have the text side oh there's something like there's a text called the Sean Shiva

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gurudeva penalty which is from Kerala it's very similar because it talks about um these practices how do you cure people from possession and that's interesting because that seems to be looking at the lower structure of society because it talks about people

Speaker A

who are possessed um writhing around on the ground and it doesn't make a decision between the possessed person and the being who possesses them so wow you have to beat them up then you run then you do mantras or you

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stick uh the Mormons these are centers in the body in ayurveda you stick um a trident or a sharp object into their so that blood flows and that bleeds out the demons sometimes and if that doesn't work then you you nail the

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um those shika the tuft of hair of the Brahmin man to the tree uh bring the being into that and then cut it so that it remains on the tree so it seems that these these practices are indeed

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indicative of of lower strata and also there again they give women a lot of them are um a geared towards women in this so you're problematic women in your life women women who are laughing too loudly women who are um

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um women who pretend to be of a different cast yeah yeah women who are naked women who are um um stepping outside of their uh what they're supposed to do you know they're subject to protect yawning yawning it's

Speaker A

my God yeah I mean I guess I'm I'm reminded of you know the history of how we treat mental illness in lots of parts of the world is that your treatments the early treatments do seem to be quite

Speaker A

violent in many ways you know and it's a lot about you know this is how you treat people who repeatedly socially transgresses you know beatings and bloodlettings and you know is that it that's right is that I didn't know I

Speaker A

think I think it definitely I think there's definitely elements of that and certainly with your talking in the kind of European tradition you have the you know the the changeling for example you know what you do if a child doesn't turn

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out right that they're actually a they're a fairy baby that's been swapped by the FAE and what you're supposed to do to a changeling is very very similar in the they are both essentially the possessed and the possess and the

Speaker A

possessive if you like um so you're supposed to kind of you know um burn them and and do horrible things with them to make the changeling baby disappear and your real baby come back basically isn't that interesting it's

Speaker A

always nice it was fascinating because you've got what you're saying now another uh not in the nature but it's other texts you've got um kids who are who won't sleep at night or or um who are misbehaving um you've got rituals to um put them

Speaker A

right you know yes ritually beating them do we have a quick full of questions coming in Jim if we uh open the floodgates yeah we've got one question we've got a couple of people saying they can't see the handout and the chat I'm

Speaker A

not sure why because I can see it clearly and was able to download it um and you have to click on it it's not sort of immediately they do they may not have the chat box actually open so if

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you see chat down the thing that says chat down the bottom click on it it should bring up the thing that says webinar chat um I have sent it to everyone so it should say it but also if you can't if

Speaker A

you really can't get it drop me an email at uh you know CYS sellers.ac.uk I'll put that in the chat as well and I can send it to you by email if you can't figure it out no I

Speaker A

can send you a more updated handout if you like because some of that material wasn't in this one um okay thanks there and then there's there is one question that's kind of related actually to what what you're just

Speaker A

talking about um do I read them out or do we go to the question I can't remember sorry uh as you wish you can read it out it seems looks like a long one do you want to paraphrase it

Speaker A

correctively it's uh saying that some teachers about psychology say that you can't really cure psychological diseases you have to just put people on medication seems like a fairly extreme position but the question is Stephanie quastio is asking uh

Speaker A

would that she was saying that she would like your point of view concerning yoga and the possibility of healing people with certain mental conditions tough question I mean maybe I've got no view I've got no um I mean

Speaker A

as possible I don't I just don't know I'm afraid I I it's not my um I wouldn't like to pronounce on that um I'm sure yoga has many I mean Jim could answer better than me yoga has many

Speaker A

benefits for people but uh whether it can show mentally illness I don't know I wouldn't like to say um is it does it set to a certain extent depend on what yoga we're talking about because the kind of yoga we're talking

Speaker A

about it here seems to be involving poking people with tridents and beating people with sticks which is possibly not has a very different effect to a nice gentle Sun salutation that's right that's right that's right yes I mean

Speaker A

because I mean because they people who are sick and so on or misbehaving they thought that that's the world view through which they interpreted these yes these things and and it went they couldn't have done anything else in a

Speaker A

way um because they didn't know about the etiology of disease and so on they didn't have the category well they did have mental illness did they have mental the cash agreemental illness at this time Jim uh I'm sure there would be a minus yes

Speaker A

um particular mental diseases but I'm not sure they get addressed in yoga text but my yoga text claim they can do anything and heal more or less anything so I would have thought you find it within the text or tradition but I'm not

Speaker A

I don't think that's what the questioners after she's I think she's sort of wondering whether yoga has practice today might uh might be able to heal people with certain mental conditions which I think you and I as a

Speaker A

idologist can perhaps bow out of answering that question they might remember maybe that was food and I'm gonna know I'm gonna now answer it on the granted it's it's not it's not the subject to the talk yeah I just don't know the answer I'm

Speaker A

afraid I have some idea what the nature of the research is uh inconclusive would be my answer that's inconclusive yes isn't it just you've got another question um which is from Alexa cohenks who's saying that thank you for sharing this very

Speaker A

interesting text you mentioned this is the first early representation of the chakras can you develop this more is there any reference to any of the specific chakras and healing through these centers in the body let me just chip in that there is a mention of an

Speaker A

Arby chakra in patanjali by the way oh there is yeah okay and I think we get a couple of other similar things but it's very unsystematic I think I think this is one of the earliest um systematic descriptions of a group of jobs anyway

Speaker A

yeah but I think the question I would like you to elaborate a little bit more well you probably can't well than me but I I think that's I mean I mean I thought I was just as a systematic thing where

Speaker A

you've got this description in that in that first a few um verses of chapter seven of these um of these systems mapped on top of each other Helen Bruno's got an interesting diagram in her article the way that she

Speaker A

Maps them all out uh so you've got the hierarchy of the body and these these chakras are um matched upon on this hierarchy in the text and uh so it's very systematic it's very clear and it's built up so you've got um the

Speaker A

16 odd supports would probably correspond to the 16 vowels um six chakras and um five emptinesses and all these odd kind of things all mapped onto each other so a couple of comments one is that um I thought this could be

Speaker A

the earliest but you know I don't know that earliest systematic representation of the chakras I'm interested to hear that you've got Nabi chakra in patanjali didn't know that that's probably what this fellow in Nepal was talking about um

Speaker A

what was I going to say there was another point I was going to make um yeah you've got it's a systematic the first very early anyway very early systematic construction of the uh of the hierarchy was wondering also if there's any

Speaker A

reference to Healing by um visualization practices on these chakras oh I see not no not not in the not in chapter seven you don't have that what what it's concerned with is the rising up of this power this aha mantra through the central

Speaker A

channel to the crown of the head and once it gets there either stays there or it releases the nectar of immortality to flood the body and that's all it seems to be concerned with so it doesn't associate different

Speaker A

chakras with different kind of illnesses or different states of mind um not in this text anyway um but it does talk about piercing and piercing with a needle of sound which is interesting which is an early idea yes I guess that maps onto is related to

Speaker A

this notion I've got a student working on it's a month through Chara of uh with mantras raising the breath that through the central Channel and piercing yeah yeah oh the the other thing what I thought was interesting was that it

Speaker A

seems to indicate that this subtle body this is is visualized that these seem to be visualization practices they're not reified I don't think it it seems to indicate the opposite but these these are not to do with the physical but these are

Speaker A

this subtle imaginative practice so it's interesting because in the 19th century the verification of the chakra system with the identified with organs of the body and all that we've got one more question I think it's hopefully quite easy to answer if you

Speaker A

don't mind me take that one and then yeah sure asking saying in Mantra yoga the Mantra should be recited or should it or actually this missed out a word or should something internally in coordination with the breath oh I see

Speaker A

because it's the ideas about whether it's vocalized or whether it's a more sort of it um I think in the in the gross yoga uh the um when you're getting rid of possessed Jurgen Is possessing yogurness I think

Speaker A

it's altered I think it's just um something like that uh but I think in the internal in the subtle one I don't know this is just my view I haven't got any indication in the text it doesn't say do it quietly or do it loudly

Speaker A

I suspect the Mantra aham is is in is is um uttered um privately or under the breath but it doesn't say in your translation it says something about raising a hum as well right is it that's a raise so that

Speaker A

seems to be perhaps connected with this notion of Mantra and oh yes of course it would right I've been going up Central you raise it up that's right that's right that's right Jimmy I haven't thought that yeah that's right my trip

Speaker A

yeah yeah the rate aham is raised up with the breath through the central Channel yeah great well um what's what's the what's the what's the plan for all of this you're going to be publishing a critical Edition and

Speaker A

translation and yeah so we've done chapters um well we I've got I've got I've got gone through the whole text really and of course but um a few years ago I decided to change strategy and we're going to base it on

Speaker A

the on the Nepalese version as the prime even if the even if the Kashmir offers a better reading we're not going to do a strictly critical edition if you see what I mean we're going to do more of a

Speaker A

um an addition based on The Nepalese text uh but with within the apparatus uh differences with the um cashmere version recorded so that if people disagree with our presentation they can make their own critical edition if you like

Speaker A

something right and um yeah I hope you won't ask me the same question back but when when any plan any idea of when it might be ready and published yeah well we've got a deadline for the first volume for June

Speaker A

chapters one two eight okay so that'll be two volumes overall yeah two volumes yeah okay great keep an eye out for that so Shanks are the most interesting chapters and all this stuff on uh chapter 19 the nature of the

Speaker A

yoginis and uh uh possession and sacrifice they're really doing us a favor which I think is really an innovation in the history of Indian religions that will have to come now I have to wait for a couple of years

Speaker A

I'm afraid okay well that's further down the line it actually reminded me of in the I was a bit nervous when I got my PhD thesis published the kh3 video because there's a line in there saying whoever makes this known to all and

Speaker A

Sundry will be eaten alive by Jurgen maybe that'll be a good thing maybe you're a favorite if I do that

Topics:Netra-tantratantric ShaivismGavin Floodyoga studiestantraHinduismcomparative religionmedieval Indian textsyogic practicespanentheism

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