Speaker A
I would like to live and die by the art that I make. And I feel so passionately about that because I've done things in the past where I haven't felt that way.
Nicky Reardon interviews Charlie XCX on artistry, creative process, and evolving persona in music, fashion, and film.
Ask about this video. Answers come from its transcript only — with the timestamp, so you can check them.
Generated from the transcript and can be wrong — check the timestamp.
Key Takeaways
- Artistry for Charlie XCX is a lifelong, deeply personal commitment.
- Creative boundaries help sharpen artistic vision and direction.
- Albums are interconnected, each responding to the last.
- Public personas can oversimplify complex human identities.
- Cross-disciplinary work in music, fashion, and film enriches her storytelling.
What the video covers
- Charlie XCX discusses her deep passion for art and how her life is intertwined with her creative work.
- She explains her approach to music as a 360-degree experience involving persona, world building, and campaigns.
- Her collaboration with AG Cook since 2015 has shaped a shared creative language influencing her music and presentation.
- Charlie highlights the importance of boundaries in creativity to hone a distinct vision, exemplified in her album 'Brat'.
- She reflects on how each album responds to the previous one, showing artistic evolution and personal growth.
- The interview explores how public perception can simplify an artist's persona, while she emphasizes human complexity.
- Charlie talks about balancing blunt, conversational lyrics with more in-depth storytelling in her latest work.
- She discusses the challenges and rewards of marketing herself in a deliberately countercultural way.
- The conversation touches on how new experiences and environments influence her creative output.
- Charlie shares insights on the interplay between music, fashion, and film as interconnected forms of expression.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Artistic Philosophy
- 03:14Creative Process and World Building
- 06:58Artistic Evolution and Album Connections
- 10:25Public Persona and Complexity
- 16:19Marketing and Counterculture Approach
- 19:39Influences and New Creative Directions
- 23:16Interdisciplinary Storytelling in Music, Fashion, Film
- 25:18Closing Thoughts and Reflections
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
My whole life and my existence is so tied to the work that I do, possibly in a kind of unhealthy way. For me, it's like art at all costs. The albums that I make are inherently connected because the next record that comes after the
Speaker A
previous one is like a response to it. Yeah. You are the greatest marketer who has ever lived. No one else but you could get those three people in a room to take a picture.
Speaker A
I was sort of shocked that even I managed to do that. And it was down to the [ __ ] wire. We could go into that if you want. I really don't mind.
Speaker A
The one day I woke up to 43 DM notifications from Charlie XCX, including but not limited to screenshots of text conversations going back to 2023. You don't always kind of say the most like concise perfect sentence like I'm doing right now because I'm so
Speaker A
nervous. Oh my god, I haven't been doing a lot of press. So, it's like I'm really like Charlie XCX, welcome to Nikki at Night.
Speaker A
Hi Nikki at Night. This is a moment I have been waiting years of my life for.
Speaker A
Oh god, that's so sweet. And I am just so like you are the total opposite of an overnight success story.
Speaker A
Yeah. And you stand for like being true to yourself and not compromising your vision or your artistry. And, um, like to watch all of what's happened to you happen to you in the past 2 years I think is just like been one of the
Speaker A
greatest joys of my life lately. Oh my gosh, that's really sweet. Thank you.
Speaker A
Of course. I mean I would love to just like start with like questions about like your approach to artistry and like the creative process as a whole. Yeah.
Speaker A
Um, like you talk so much about like world building and persona and campaigns in a way that no other artist does, right?
Speaker A
How is like describe your approach to like persona and world building? Um, well, it's interesting. Like I think I've always thought of music as this very kind of 360 thing, particularly pop stars and large, um, kind of campaigns, I suppose. You
Speaker A
know, I've always really been engaged in music, but actually I feel like more so the other things that come along with it. And I think when I, um, really kind of started working with AG Cook who I've worked with now gosh since
Speaker A
probably like 2015 maybe, yeah 2015, like that has been a language that we've really, really shared together and have really kind of, that's both of our sort of like, I don't know, we get really excited about that. Um, and we
Speaker A
really love to kind of think about that like from the jump when we're making anything. It's equally as important and actually for me at least when I'm making music, um, it really informs the direction that the music takes. Thinking
Speaker A
alongside and even sometimes before I'm even making music, like the way I want to present it.
Speaker A
Interesting. Um, it kind of shapes the music that I'm making because it provides this sort of like set of boundaries in which I create.
Speaker A
Yeah. And that can really help, um, the direction of the music itself. Yeah. Like fill in the lines almost.
Speaker A
Yeah. Because I think when you're creating within this sort of set of rules, let's call it, um, you can get really potent with the decisions that you're making.
Speaker A
Totally. Um, whereas if you're sort of creating in this like super, super, super broad landscape, you can find really cool things of course, for sure. But I think you kind of get to hone into a more distinct vision when you put a few
Speaker A
little, um, yeah, like boundaries within it. So okay, for example, um, when I was making Brat, it became really clear quite early on what was Brat versus what wasn't. Um, and that really helped, especially like lyrically, being able to
Speaker A
kind of really like focus in on, um, stories or lyrical content that specifically felt brat versus not. So, like being very directional, lyrics that felt like a conversation, um, not being overly descriptive, being pretty blunt. Those were all things that
Speaker A
really kind of were helpful in like guiding the songwriting, but also, you know, that was really early reflected in everything else that I was doing alongside that, like the tweets or the 360.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yes. Exactly. Or like even, you know, when it came down to like font design and things like that, it's like doing something that was like very, very simple and very kind of like forward, almost confrontational, like a little off.
Speaker A
Yeah. A little off like pixelated. So, it kind of looked like a mistake in a way in the way that when you're having a conversation, you don't always kind of say the most like concise perfect sentence like I'm doing right now
Speaker A
because I'm so nervous. Oh my god, you have nothing to be nervous about. I just, I haven't been doing a lot of press. So it's like I'm really like no, it's we all are eager to like explore your mind, you know, like I, you are the
Speaker A
greatest marketer who has ever lived. I truly believe like the way that you see culture and so clearly understand where it's moving and have this like deliberate, you're like deliberately counterculture.
Speaker A
You know what I mean? Like, like I think it's like one of your greatest strengths to like identify what is so typical of a pop star and to intentionally go the opposite direction.
Speaker A
Yeah. I mean I think it's, it's like I'm always responding in ways to things that I have done in the past. Like, you know, I think the albums that I make are inherently connected because the next record that comes after the
Speaker A
previous one is like a response to it. So when I'm thinking about music, fashion, film in ways that is polar opposite to Brat, um, because Brat was so, uh, yeah, like very, it was very blunt. It was very off
Speaker A
the cuff. Um, having these conversational songs like the way that affects, um, me as a person and things like that. Whereas like music, fashion, film is much more me talking more in depth about my process and the way that I, um, think about
Speaker A
the way my life kind of changed during Brat. Totally. And you're a completely different person than when you had to write Brat versus when writing this.
Speaker A
Absolutely. And, you know, everything that happened during Brat has been so, um, influential to the songs that I'm writing for music, fashion, film.
Speaker A
How could it not be? You know, it's like I went through an experience that I had not gone through before in that, you know, my work was kind of opened up to this whole new audience who perhaps didn't really know like my history as an
Speaker A
artist, which is totally fine. You know, that happens and that, and I'm so grateful that that did happen. Yeah.
Speaker A
Um, but with that, you know, comes this sort of like, um, I don't know, like, uh, people obviously really associate me with that album and all the things that came with that album. And in a way they kind of, it
Speaker A
becomes these sort of like cartoonish personality traits, you know, um, like the kind of like girl who loves the color green and like smokes sigs and like wears sunglasses and is like, like, you know, and like yes, that is a huge
Speaker A
part of who I am. It's also, um, just a fraction of who I am. And I think that's the thing that I find really interesting about being an artist, particularly in this day and age. It's like I think
Speaker A
people are really excited to understand you. Yeah. Which is awesome. But then I think once people feel that they do understand you, there is this hesitancy to then be willing to understand like a different facet of somebody's personality. And I
Speaker A
think sometimes people feel that perhaps that's, um, I don't know, like not as real or something. But it's like, you know, humans are complex. It's like you and that's always what I've loved about your artistry. Like I, I feel like you
Speaker A
are simultaneously this symbol of like anarchy and intellectualism. You know what I mean? Like you are like talking, you have songs about generational trauma, the loss of your best friend, how my thoughts on motherhood into like 365 party girl like
Speaker A
do you know what I mean? And like it's there's so many people who are one or
Speaker A
There's very rarely this ability to put both into one body of work in a way that makes sense.
Speaker A
And I think that's your genius. It's funny that you talk about the kind of two um sides to my work. It's like I feel like both really intersect because for me, you know, party music and pop music in general,
Speaker A
it's like very um it's very sacred and serious. Yeah. Like very in what this entire show is dedicated to making people understand.
Speaker A
Yeah. But then at the same time, it's also really silly and fun. Yeah. And like those things can coexist.
Speaker A
Totally. And I think there's this thing that still happens right now where if something is deemed as fun, I think people sometimes have a problem also understanding that as like being serious um and having meaning still like something
Speaker A
can be fun but also speaking to a deep like experience of your soul. Yeah. And I think that is like a big thing about me as an artist. It's like I think the people who really get that really appreciate that and I think the
Speaker A
people who don't um kind of really have a problem with it and like think I'm really stupid or something. And that's that's cool. That's like fine. That's you know, but that's like there's always going to be people who only listen to things on
Speaker A
the surface. And I also think in general that like not a lot of people also like think about pop music to the extent that like you or I or any artist would. You know what I mean? Like we see like the
Speaker A
choices they made and the directions. Even this idea of a persona like that is like something that's so interesting. Like taking these pieces of yourself and intentionally like hyperbolizing them until it's almost like a satire of this thing that you
Speaker A
already did, right? Like in the rock music video, you smoking a cigarette in front of a mountain of cigarettes is like very that you know it's playing with the perception you know people have of you.
Speaker A
Yes. Exactly. Yeah. And we we had so much fun making that video and that song. And I think obviously like um I think some people were really um really sort of adamant that I was being uh I don't know like really ironic and sort
Speaker A
of like snobby with with that song or something which is so funny because that's such a classic kind of that's like the conversation that was really happening around like Vroom V room Vroom and a lot of the early PC music stuff.
Speaker A
It's a conversation we're so familiar with. I remember when PC music kind of first was sort of like being discussed in this way and sort of like early like 2014 maybe even a little before that 20 and 2015 and people were like oh they think
Speaker A
they're so clever like like it's all a big joke and it's like actually no it's it's not it's like actually really it's music made by really like human people but having a lot of fun and it's still unbelievably meaningful to them but it's
Speaker A
just a different approach that at that time in particular was like not very familiar.
Speaker A
Yeah. What about Vroom Vroom do you feel like people didn't understand? Um I well I think the music I had made before um was really really different. Yeah.
Speaker A
You know it was it was very it was very um yeah it was I think Vroom Broom came out after uh Sucker and so sonically it was like a big jump.
Speaker A
But I think what's funny is when you listen to my early early demos Yeah.
Speaker A
from like when I was 14, I was singing songs. I had this song called Dinosaur Sex and it went T-Rex, dinosaur sex, watch me roar, watch me roar, watch me be like a dinosaur. I mean, not my best,
Speaker A
but I was like hopping around on stage like pretending to be a T-Rex. I don't know where my head was at with that, but I was like making these like silly kind of almost like nursery rhyme type songs
Speaker A
and I was just like making them in my bedroom at home. And I was really kind of like trying to find someone or a group of people who could kind of understand what I was doing there, which was making these really like lowfi like
Speaker A
kind of sort of very like minimal um club tracks that had some like humor but also like a kind of pop tone to them.
Speaker A
And I really couldn't find anybody for a really long time who sort of understood what I was trying to do because I think everybody who I was coming across sort of thought it was like a a joke or like something and like yes
Speaker A
those lyrics in particular were but um you know when I when I met Sophie for the first time and when I first came across Hannah Diamond's song Pink and Blue which I discovered on like a Young Lean forum room. I think I think he was
Speaker A
posting about it. He was posting about it. I was like, "Let me check this out and I loved it." And then I I kind of was messaging Hannah and then I met Alex AG at this my friend's um like art
Speaker A
magazine party at the ICA in London and he was DJing and I was DJing and like I don't know. I was like you get me.
Speaker A
Yeah. And then we sort of got to know each other a lot and Sophie and I kind of simultaneously actually a little bit earlier we we were getting to know each other and I just realized like oh actually like this group of people
Speaker A
really understand this thing that I'm trying to do and the first song that I made with Sophie was Vroom V room V room and it was like pretty crazy actually like we we had gone to um sorry by the way I'm just like
Speaker A
talking Oh, I this is I I'm very interested in this story. And also, you just interrupt if you're like, "Oh, she's really gone." No, no, no, no, no, no. I I I mean, I I think it's like even it's like something
Speaker A
I had in the notes is like I think a lot of your uh like approach to creative direction and stuff has always been this like pairing of like things that are like highbrow and lowbrow.
Speaker A
Oh yeah. Yeah. It's very like a high low thing that I've always been obsessed with and always will be obsessed with.
Speaker A
Yeah. And I think like Yeah. So with Room R room, I think in a way it is a little bit that like there is some real like conflict in that song in terms of like the way that things sound. You know, there's this
Speaker A
like very sweet sort of like kind of sugary uh nursery rhyme like chorus. Yeah.
Speaker A
With that really kind of like hard like verse production. And yeah, I remember when we made that song, it was just like I had this sense of like, oh my god, I found my person. Like I found what I was
Speaker A
looking for. And it was it was a really um it was like I don't know, it was a a wild wild moment.
Speaker A
And I feel like when you like go back through your discoraphy, you kind of feel like vroom vroom is the start. Like you kind of birthing what becomes really your sound. I always felt like vroom vroom into like how I'm feeling now
Speaker A
into Brat was like, you know what I mean? Like there's like a clear sort of like the pieces of the puzzle are coming together with those bodies of work.
Speaker A
You're so you're so right. And I think, you know, with especially with Alex and I, um, we were really growing as, um, musicians, as writers, as creators, I suppose, like whilst we were going through that journey together because we
Speaker A
worked on pretty much, yeah, all of the music that you just mentioned, we were working on um together. uh you know maybe like whole records or at points like bits but like pretty much you know and like I think we developed
Speaker A
um our kind of confidence together and actually there is a song on this new album that is actually like all about Alex.
Speaker A
Really? Yeah. It's really and it's very it's very sweet. It's really it's just about the it's like a love song in a way, but it's, you know, it's a love song about my most long-term collaborator who Yeah. I'm a big believer that there is
Speaker A
such thing as like a creative soulmate. Oh. Oh my god. 100%. You know what I mean? Like something about it, you meet and it's just like instantly like Yes.
Speaker A
It fits and you don't know why or how, but Yeah. And we have that thing where we we don't even need to talk about the things that we're making. We just know. It's like we inherently know what we where
Speaker A
we're going. Right. And and the thing that I feel so so lucky about with Alex and I I feel it with Finn, my other collaborator, and I felt with Sophie, is there was there's no embarrassment.
Speaker A
Yeah. Like there's, you know, you can come, you can come with the most batshit idea and it's like there isn't, we've worked so much together now that there isn't that sort of like hurdle of like, oh my god, I'm going to say this thing and it
Speaker A
might just like completely bomb. It's like we just say it and it's like we feel totally fine to be like, oh, that's really terrible. And then we move. We we're very quick. We're moving fast.
Speaker A
Like Alex is so fast. I like to work really fast and we have this sort of like pace and energy that I think is like captured in the songs that we make together.
Speaker A
Definitely. Um and yeah, it's this sort of unspoken language. So it was when I was writing this song about Alex. It it was it was really nice. And I played it to my friend Aiden um not so long ago and he
Speaker A
was like he said this thing that made me cry actually where he was like, "Wow, how nice that you've actually like been able to tell him this while you still can." Yeah.
Speaker A
Um and yeah, that was like very emotional cuz I've, you know, I wasn't able to do that with Sophie. So, but you know, she's so [ __ ] proud of you.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. I I mean I I think so. Yeah. I know. I know. So, but how did that conversation go of like or lack of conversation as you described like when going from you know brat to rock music and what this album was going
Speaker A
to be? You mean the song or or I was referring to the song but also the genre.
Speaker A
Well, the genre just to like put it out here like clear as day. I'll look into the camera. the album is not a rock album. Like I that that is a phrase that I never said.
Speaker A
I never said it. You can read the text like whatever. Like I'm just you know it's like people will hear it and I'm sure there will be a lot of people like it's not a rock album. It's like yeah
Speaker A
it's not. It's not. You're so right. Yeah. But okay. If it's not a rock album then what is it?
Speaker A
Well it's a Charlie X album. Like I don't know. It's like a it's me. It's it's pop. Like for sure. It's like it's it's pop, but we're exploring um I don't know, like more sort of analog elements, I suppose. You know,
Speaker A
like Alex is playing drums on like a a few of the songs. we were working at a sort of funnily like analog studio which is sort of funny because I think you know people associate um sort of electronic elements so like deeply with
Speaker A
the things that I do and that Alex and I do together but actually it's like we you know we've we have explored this world in slight ways before I just think it hasn't been explicitly like a talking point.
Speaker A
Alex has made a lot of guitar and I think that's always going to be like my take on something and I know that that will like piss people off always. But it's like it's it's it's that's interesting to me
Speaker A
like to kind of take something and like reinterpret it in a way that I feel like only I could or you know whatever. But like yeah, the jump from from Brat to to music, fashion, film, I suppose it's
Speaker A
like, as I said, working in in response to BRT, it's like I I think that there's this this whole thing of, you know, when you make a record that connects with people in the way that Brat did, like that, I think for me, that album,
Speaker A
it's like the mosture listeners I've Yeah. And it was engaging with it was this thing that like everyone felt that they were a part of, you know, and it was also this I think like symbol of adhering to a vision and watching
Speaker A
that pay off for someone. Yeah, totally. And and it was Yeah. So all of that those things that you just said, I think it's like there is obviously this whole conversation about like well you you should like ride that
Speaker A
train, you know, you should like do that again. and you should make another record that sort of plays into some of the sonic elements that people are now familiar with with you and etc etc etc and like I have no interest in doing that
Speaker A
like and and you know what it's like maybe why don't you have interest in doing that it's it's not inspiring to me like this is the thing if if I woke up one morning when I was working on this
Speaker A
album and was Like I actually really in my soul feel that I want to make like a club track.
Speaker A
Yeah. I would do it right. Like because I that's what I always have to do when I'm making anything. I have to just follow my like inner voice so to speak, you know? If that's what my inner voice is saying, I'm doing it,
Speaker A
you know? But for me, it's like that's not what it was saying. Like I What was it saying? It was I think it was just like I have to It's so tricky. It's like okay when you like think of a thought
Speaker A
Yeah. and you like say it out loud. It's like you're not really like you don't really know like what you're going to say.
Speaker A
No, but do you know what I mean? Like kind of when you're having a conversation, right? This doesn't count because it's an interview and you've prepped for it. But when you're having a conversation Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
with your friends or when you're maybe even like writing the questions for this interview, it's like the the the thought comes to you, you know? It's like you don't know where it came from. It just comes and then you
Speaker A
say it or you write it down and then it becomes like the reality of like what you've said. And that is how I make music. It's like I don't know where the idea comes from. Sometimes it's just like planted in my brain
Speaker A
somehow. Yeah. And then I say it and I follow it. And I guess that's like being inspired or whatever. It's like sometimes I have nothing and I'm just like sat in my house looking at a wall and I'm like, I
Speaker A
got nothing. I got nothing. But then sometimes it's like, oh [ __ ] this thing it's just come to me. I'm going to explain it out loud. I'm going to tell Alex or I'm going to just like make it
Speaker A
on my own and I'm going to like follow that. And I think for me it was like almost like a natural like rebellion against uh some of the the rules let's say that were um we I was following
Speaker A
after that album. It's like it it was just I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense. It's like No, totally.
Speaker A
Yeah. So it was like okay well we should go to Europe. That was like a big thing.
Speaker A
It was like we should go to Europe to make this album because we made a lot of brat here. So like let's just go there immediately. It's I'm also a big believer that like you have to do new if you want new creative
Speaker A
outputs you have to do new creative inputs. Yeah. Like even just in like being in a different location, writing in a different place like any like you can't expect new ideas to come if you're going to a place that's like built off old
Speaker A
ideas. Yeah. Sure. That that I'm that totally makes sense. And I don't know. know, I think as well it was kind of like um yeah, just like wanting to um avoid certain sonic choices, you know, um like, okay, we're not going to use like
Speaker A
razor bass on this record. Like we're going to um explore like starting songs with guitar riffs rather than, you know, in Logic, right, or whatever. And then um I don't know like approaching the songwriting sort of differently through
Speaker A
this kind of lens of um talking about uh I don't know like the process of of making things and actually you know what I think Brat taught me which was a big fuel for this record was like it made me think
Speaker A
about why I love doing what I do. Yeah. And how thankful I am to be able to do what I do. And that was a big fuel for this album, you know, like I felt so grateful after the success of Brat.
Speaker A
Yeah. And I never thought I would be in that position, you know, as you said at the beginning of this, I'm like the opposite of an overnight success story. Like I was very at peace with like where I was
Speaker A
and what I was doing. And when I made Brat, and I've spoken about this a lot, I really just thought like, okay, I'm going to be dropped, but I'm doing this as like this is just inherently like what I want to make. And it didn't go
Speaker A
that way. But like and I'm very, you know, it it's cool that it didn't. I'm very grateful for that. But like that made me be like, wow, like I'm so I'm so fortunate to be able to do this
Speaker A
at the scale that I do it. And I realized, I mean, I've known this for a long time, but my whole life and my existence is so tied to the work that I do, possibly in a kind of unhealthy way.
Speaker A
Yeah. Like, it is my being. It is my everything. And I know some people will find that really pretentious and annoying.
Speaker A
No, it's part of being an artist. It's it's everything to me. It's I would like live and die by the art that I make. And I feel so passionately about that. Yeah, because I've done things in the past where I haven't felt that way.
Speaker A
And I know how [ __ ] and rubbish that makes me feel. And so I've really now it's like it is my passion. It is my everything. Like without being able to make things like I don't know who I
Speaker A
would be. I would lose like a huge like identity to my core. It is my identity and it's really serious for me. It's really really serious, but at the same time, it's where I have my most joyous moments. It's where I have the
Speaker A
most fun. It's where I feel most free. And I think I realized all of that after Brat in a way that I definitely thought of before, but hadn't felt as like palp in such way. And I also I'm sure that there's
Speaker A
some element of like confidence that came after that. Of course, like you know, of like this is what I can do. And at least for my like outside perception of music, fashion film so far is it to me feels
Speaker A
this like like this beautiful like reclamation of identity, you know, it's it's about the art that made the artist.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yes. That's a really good way of putting it. It is. It is. And also all of the conflict that comes with that because I would say whilst there is there are um there are songs on the record that are
Speaker A
extremely positive. Yeah. There are also songs where, you know, it's like being an artist um is really volatile, you know, and I I think I've been very very honest about um how volatile I am as a person. Yeah.
Speaker A
And like that's what the moment's about. Well, yes. Yes. And Yeah. So, like I think this album goes into those that those feelings a lot and um how really it's like kind of this sounds so cheesy but for me it's like art at all
Speaker A
costs. Like even though it's like, you know, it's selfish. Yeah. And it's uh can sometimes be really difficult to coexist with someone who thinks that way.
Speaker A
Like that is just what it is for me, right? And I'll probably like cause people hurt and pain, but also cause people hurt and pain.
Speaker A
No, no, no. But I mean in my life I'm not I'm not talking about you know listeners like in my life like it's hard to be with someone coexist with someone like be a friend of someone who sometimes feels that way but it is what
Speaker A
I feel and I'm like working on it but it's like it's it's I mean Michaela knows she's smiling in the background and I know a little bit as well.
Speaker A
You know I know a little bit as well. You know I'm Yeah. Well, we could go into that if you want. I really don't mind. But I would I I if you want to talk about it, we can. The The one day I woke up to
Speaker A
43 DM notifications from Charlie XCX. 43 at like 7:00 a.m. in the morning and including but not limited to screenshots of text conversations going back to 2023 talking about the marketing and creative direction of Brat, which was in in some
Speaker A
ways, oh my gosh, the most terrifying experience of my life, but also so [ __ ] cool.
Speaker A
I just I I had to I had to lay it out for you. I had to lay it out for you because the evidence was all there and I was Yeah. I don't know. I there's been a lot of like misinterpretations of of me
Speaker A
as a a person as there always is, you know? It's like that's that's part that's part of like the reality of like, you know, putting work into the world um on like a kind of public level. Like I'm
Speaker A
not an idiot. like I know, you know, but I think because I I know you and I know your work and I know that you um are very smart about how you interpret um artists and what they do. You are you
Speaker A
are you really you really get it. You really get it. You're you you Yeah. And I was just like maybe let me help him along here a little bit cuz he's got a few things wrong. So then I sent you all
Speaker A
the screens and I was like, "Baby, like listen up. This is how it went down." He sent me straight. He sent me straight. And also like that's also like meaningful to me like as like a like journalists or whatever. Like my I think
Speaker A
so much of like music discussion has become a repackage of like what '9s magazine tabloids used to be. So it is like like I appreciated it cuz I I don't want to be wrong. Like I want to be a
Speaker A
source that is like credible to people and and to artists like you. You know what I mean?
Speaker A
43 messages is at 7 a.m. is a bit crazy though. At the beginning I thought it was spam.
Speaker A
I was like there's no way. Yeah. No, I was I was sending you texts.
Speaker A
I was sending you the archives, babe. Everything. You got it all. You got it.
Speaker A
I got it all. But it was beautiful. Again, it's I I got a window into you that no one else will get. I just, you know, why I get so um I well I why I got so mad
Speaker A
is I think we do live in this world where people are really like not willing to believe that like women have brains and can actually like do things for themselves. Especially when a woman becomes successful. And I know that you
Speaker A
don't think that by the way, but I think it's like I've I think I've seen it so much. People are so ready to be like, "Yeah, but like who actually was behind that thing that like XYZ did?" Like, but
Speaker A
you know, did she really come? And it's like hey what if we did? What if it was my idea?
Speaker A
What if we [ __ ] did, guys? How about that? How about that? What if we just woke up, we used our little brains, and we were like, "Yeah, this is the thing I'm going to do." And then we put it
Speaker A
into [ __ ] action. How about that? And you did a genius idea. And it's not just me. I'm not just talking about me.
Speaker A
I'm talking about so many artists, so many female artists who have had like careers that are illustrious and long and they're at the top of their game.
Speaker A
And people are still willing to be like, "Yeah, but did she really write that song?" It's like, "Yes, she [ __ ] did.
Speaker A
She [ __ ] wrote the damn song." You know, and I just I think Yeah. It's like especially when there's a success that people deem as like overnight, which I think some people because they weren't familiar with me before Brat,
Speaker A
you know, felt that. Um, they're really ready to be like, "Oh, yeah, but like what were the sort of things that like all these other people helped her with?" and like she doesn't really know about XYZ. Like she's a pop star. She can't know about
Speaker A
like you know the history of art or culture in any way like which is but anybody who has that take is so clearly not paying attention.
Speaker A
That's also like you know what I mean cuz it's so evident if you look this much at any of your work it's so clear.
Speaker A
Sure. And I will say it's like I really do go through phases with that. Like sometimes I'm like really at peace with being misinterpreted like because it is it comes with the territory, you know? So I'm just like, "Nah, fine." But on my
Speaker A
like lowest days, which I guess was 7:00 a.m. that morning, I was like, I'm not going to stand for this. So yeah, but I I was also I also like maybe like 1 hour later I text Michaela and I was like I did something
Speaker A
really bad. And I was like I feel so bad. No, it was so okay. And and now we're we're working it out on the remix.
Speaker A
Like literally we're working it out on the this is the closest I can get to that. You know what I mean?
Speaker A
So like that that's the beauty of it all. And but I want to talk about some some interesting takes you've had with this album that have come out so far.
Speaker A
Yeah, sure. In the SS26, you say, "Think my politics could work as a press strategy and my heritage could give me quite the USP." Yeah.
Speaker A
You've never really talked about your like half Indian side in your music. Yeah. Where where does that line come from?
Speaker A
It's It's because nobody asks me really. Really? Nobody. Yeah. No one really like when people ask me I'm talk about it.
Speaker A
But I think like you know for me it's like I don't know like I feel like there is this world where like I could really like play that up a lot and some artists do and I just it's like doesn't come
Speaker A
natural to me probably because of the way that I you know engage with being a mixed person you know it's Like it's like you don't when especially when I was younger like I didn't really feel like I belonged in either.
Speaker A
Yeah. Like you're always not enough to either side. Yeah. Of my family. Like you know when I was like hang hanging out like every weekend with my the Indian side of my family. I wouldn't I would feel kind of
Speaker A
like the outsider there. M and then when I was like, you know, at school with like a bunch of white girls, I would feel like the outsider there.
Speaker A
And so it's difficult to place yourself in a way and to kind of understand your identity. And I I a lot of my friends who are mixed also like feel that same way.
Speaker A
It's it's hard to feel like you can like really claim something. Um, but I am really happy to talk about that. But the line in the song, it's sort of about how it's funny. I think everybody thinks that that song is about like
Speaker A
the end of the world. The end of the world or something or the state of the world. And it's actually not like that's not at all what that song is about. It's it it's kind of about persona. Yeah. In a
Speaker A
way, it's about how I think now more than ever, we we as in all of us, anyone who is kind of like on the internet, not even necessarily like putting out music or work in any kind of a way, but just if
Speaker A
you're on the internet, there is this sort of like level of persona, this level of like feeling like you need to be to be like on the right side of every single conversation and not get things wrong and um apologize for things how
Speaker A
big or small that you've done to ultimately lead you towards some kind of moral sanctuary that will still actually not ever be enough.
Speaker A
Yes. There is this like obsession with like purity and punishment. Yes. Exactly. It's like you can't just be good. You have to be the right type of good in the specific way and if not you are a bad
Speaker A
person and you actually had a sinister motive this entire time. Yeah. Yeah. And so the song is actually kind of talking about like my experience with that and talking about like all of the sort of things that I could maybe
Speaker A
like utilize to help me be more uh morally pure which would be you know like stop like smoking cigarettes do not sap apologies for things that I've done um claim my Indian heritage more um etc etc and like then hopefully like
Speaker A
lead myself into like a a place that's like where I'm more like appealing and I think people on the internet no matter who you are there is like an element of that like an element of fear to get it
Speaker A
wrong and also like an element of these things of music, fashion and film. There used to be this sort of place where actually people could escape and have an opinion and feel safe and talk uh about things in like a nonheated way. And now
Speaker A
actually like those places more than ever feel like this. Yeah. And and and very it's it's Yeah.
Speaker A
It's like kind of every opinion comes with heat, you know, and um obviously that is more specific to Twitter than anywhere else, but you know, Twitter, she's gone through a dark turn as of late.
Speaker A
It's Yeah. So, you know, I and I think that's actually what the song is about.
Speaker A
It's about um figuring out like how much you want to kind of lean into that versus not, you know, rather than me being like kind of trying to like fix the world. Like that's not what the song is about,
Speaker A
right? Speaking of of things that like come with heat. Uh oh, where do you actually think the dance floor is dead, babe?
Speaker A
No. No, I don't. I don't. And again, it's like that lyric from that song is about my relationship with Brat. You know, for me, it's like, you know, I've made like electronic leaning music over a decade.
Speaker A
You know, that's shaped who I am as an artist. It's kind of about like my pivot from that like as an artist who doesn't want to continue to do the same thing over and over and over again. It's more
Speaker A
it's like a personal I'm putting away this part of myself. Yeah. It's like a personal comment on like the fact that I was doing that. I was doing like Boiler Room in New York and going to I doing it with the Dare
Speaker A
and with George and with whoever else and then like doing the kind of shows that were very sort of like party girl rave. It's like and then also like going out all the time. Like I was out all the time. I was partying all the
Speaker A
time in not a great way all the time, you know? It's like it was like it's me kind of like closing the chapter on that. I mean, look, my husband runs a dance music label and he's DJing every other week.
Speaker A
Yep. And I'm I've seen him DJ. Yeah. And I'm I'm going and like I'm there in the corner like But I I want to ask you about the album cover.
Speaker A
Yeah. Cuz this is like the coolest [ __ ] album cover I've ever seen.
Speaker A
Thank you. and one, what do each of these three people mean to you? Um, yeah, that's a good question. So, obviously, like John is somebody who I have worked with before in the past and I've been a huge fan of
Speaker A
obviously the Velvet Underground, like I've spoken a lot about that. I've been a huge fan of his solo work, his work with Brian Eno, his work with John Cage.
Speaker A
like he was really doing some like super progressive things with the music that he was making back in the '60s, you know? It was like very he was he was flipping the form in a way that was really new and unique
Speaker A
and he means a lot to me personally as a musician who's done that, right? Um, and obviously to get to work with him was just like such a huge thing. And now knowing him, I'm like, "Wow." Like John
Speaker A
is he's so prolific. He's he's working all the time. He's always making something. He's always doing a show.
Speaker A
He's always He's impossible to pin down because he's like, "Sorry, I'm like in the studio with I'm like, "Oh my god." Wow. He's So are you. The way you feel about I'm not 83, babe. Like, do you know what
Speaker A
I mean? Like this is like And you think that at 83 you won't be like that?
Speaker A
I don't know. I think you will. We'll see. Maybe maybe we'll be doing this three years right from the retirement home.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um John for me is he's a big part of like I don't know he kind of mirrors how I feel about music and the way that he engages with music. Like I feel in ways
Speaker A
like there's similarities there. Right. With Mark. I think Mark has always been somebody who speaks to youth culture. He understands how to communicate fashion in a very kind of rebellious way. Like when he did his grunge collection in he
Speaker A
was like 92 for this designer Perry Ellis like he made this grunge collection that was like at the time like really really really controversial.
Speaker A
Yeah. And he got fired because of it because it was sort of like completely not what the brand wanted. He did it because that was his thing and he he lost his job and then went on to kind
Speaker A
of do his own line and that defiance and like you know desire and need to stick to one's own vision vision is something that really speaks to me and also I think you know like what he did with heaven
Speaker A
is really cool it's like opening fashion you did a heaven campaign also he did baby he gave me my first fashion campaign ever I've done three, four, three or three or four campaigns for him. Three three campaigns for him now.
Speaker A
Um like he he opened me up to that world for the first time and when that world had not really been open to me before, right?
Speaker A
Um and I mean Marty is like we've I've been lucky enough to have like a few conversations with him.
Speaker A
Yeah. where we were just talking about film and um you know his work and how he approaches his work and honestly like his knowledge of film is just encyclopedic like it's crazy and that is something that's really really inspiring
Speaker A
to me and his kind of mission in like restoration and like restoring these films and it is just very inspiring. Um, and I mean he's also [ __ ] Martin Scorsesei. Do you know what I mean? It's like, come on.
Speaker A
Come on. And you know, it's like I think for me it's like I'm not proclaiming by any means that these people are the Trinity, right? They're yours.
Speaker A
They're mine. And everybody else has their own. And you know what? There are a million different versions of this album cover for me as well, you know?
Speaker A
Yeah. Um, but yeah, there's only there was only three spots, so you know. No, it's so cool. And also, so like no one else but you could get those three people in a room to take a picture.
Speaker A
I was sort of like I was shocked that even I managed to do that. And it was down to the [ __ ] wire.
Speaker A
Oh, I bet. Let me tell you, we were like, is it going to happen? And also, we we had to have it happen because, you know, we had to like press the vinyl. It was like it was like really scary. But when they
Speaker A
all arrived in that room together, it was truly overwhelmingly emotional. It was really like and you know Aiden was shooting it and he's like my best friend. He's obviously this kind of like I mean to me he's not like up and coming
Speaker A
anymore. To me he's this like superstar photographer director. But, you know, when you're in a room with those guys, it's like they've worked with everyone decades, everyone, you know, and so like to see him shooting them was really emotional
Speaker A
and meaningful and they were like impressed with us AND WE WERE LIKE, "THANK YOU." It was really It was like cool. It was It was It was really like just special and a moment I will probably never have again.
Speaker A
Um, and yeah, I don't know. So, it's it it was it was really it was a beautiful moment.
Speaker A
Yeah. And very reflective actually of like what the album is kind of about as a whole.
Speaker A
Totally. Yeah. Again, it's it's the art that made the artist. To me, that's always like if I had to boil it down into a sentence how it felt. I'm going to steal that.
Speaker A
Please do. Please do. You know, you hit me up anytime you need a you need some good things for press.
Speaker A
I would love to know like how do you love acting? Like how was that experience? I do I do really love I really love the um moments that I've gotten to act. I I love it. And you know
Speaker A
I think it's like obviously there is something like inherently cringe about like being a musician who's like I want to act. Like there's nothing cringe. So many people have done it.
Speaker A
Of course, of course. Of course. But but there is like a bit there's like a bit of a like tension there that people people don't people don't want to like let that happen for you. And that's fine. That that's like they could like
Speaker A
go off and do that. And like I I know what I know like what it comes with. But like yeah, I really love it. I really really enjoy it. And I feel really lucky that I've gotten to, you know, do like a
Speaker A
variety of different projects with a variety of different directors who all work in very different ways. And you know, I I definitely my approach has been like wanting to do really like small roles. Like do you have a dream role?
Speaker A
Oh my gosh. I think a dream role would probably be one I wrote for myself.
Speaker A
Cool. I think what type of character is she? Well, I think she'd probably be like a difficult woman really, wouldn't she? Do you know what I mean? Like that's sort of written in the stars. But yeah, I I
Speaker A
just I I really to be honest, like I'm really enjoying being on set because I really am enjoying learning. Like I'm enjoying learning from like other people who are far more experienced than me, whether that be cinematographers or
Speaker A
directors or actors themselves. like I'm really I'm watching I'm like watching and I'm learning and I'm thinking about you know how I can sort of use that and you get the feeling of like enjoying the process of creation without the pressure
Speaker A
of like comparing yourself to all your past work and all the things that you've done and you know what I mean you get to enjoy being a novice.
Speaker A
Yeah. And and also it's like I don't particularly I'm not like I don't know and I feel this way a little bit with with music now too, especially after a brat. I'm like I I don't have this like
Speaker A
it must be a success. Like I'm just like let me just like do the thing that feels inspiring to me because I love it. even if I fall flat on my face, like that's it's not about like winning or
Speaker A
like I don't know, whatever. It's like it's kind of never really been about that for me. It's about it's about it's the taking part that counts. I don't know. It's about like it's about what you have to say.
Speaker A
My soul. I want to be my soul and I want to follow these like threads that make me feel alive. And to be honest, like there's a song on the record that I know you've heard um which is kind of about that and it's
Speaker A
about this I I think that that's my favorite of the singles so far. I love it.
Speaker A
Okay, cool. It's called um for those who don't know, which is everyone because it's not out yet. Um but yeah, it's about um yeah, that feeling of just like I it's just this is just something that I'm drawn to
Speaker A
exploring this creative field that I'm drawn to exploring and I just am going to do it no matter what anyone else [ __ ] thinks. And you know what's interesting? Like I did this thing where I was asking um I was I was answering
Speaker A
questions for fans about like work and process and things like that. And I would say like the number one question that was asked um was about how you have the confidence to go into a creative field or to put
Speaker A
yourself out there creatively because generally speaking people were very worried about like failing or being embarrassed or getting it wrong. And that was I think that was like the main topic of conversation like across the board. People were like I
Speaker A
really want to do this but I'm scared to in case I suck. What was your answer to that?
Speaker A
It's like just go ahead and suck. Who [ __ ] cares? It's your life.
Speaker A
It's your life. You get to live it in whatever way you want to live it. If you have this desire to go and do this thing, then do it. It doesn't have to be that you know your entire life is going
Speaker A
to become about that thing. You might actually like try and do something creative and maybe you really don't enjoy it or maybe you love it and you discover something else about yourself.
Speaker A
Who cares if other people like it or don't like it? I I also believe that failure is a part of progress.
Speaker A
Oh my god. Like people view like you do something and it's like fail or succeed.
Speaker A
And it's like no, you fail until you succeed. Yeah. And you and every a failure it doesn't it's not even a real thing. It's like you learn so much about yourself as an artist or a person when things like
Speaker A
that happen. It's like I don't know. I think we live in this really like high pressure world where everybody's like, "Oh, you did this wrong." And they're like, "Shut up. Shut the [ __ ] up." Right?
Speaker A
Like, let people just live and try. What's wrong with like why are we so like judging people for trying new things?
Speaker A
It's so boring to me. It's so boring. It's just like and it's rooted in insecurity. I truly believe.
Speaker A
Of course it is. And it's like how dare you try and to better yourself.
Speaker A
Yeah. Get out of here. It's embarrassing. Excuse me. Can you [ __ ] off? Like it's just so annoying. Like please [ __ ] off.
Speaker A
Like why don't you go out and just like do something that makes you feel alive instead of like [ __ ] on everybody else who's like just following their gut instincts, you know? And so anyways, like I I felt really I was it made me
Speaker A
actually really sad when I saw so many people who were really eager to explore something but were just so scared of what people would think of them. And that's like such a that's like the world we live in. And it sucks. It [ __ ]
Speaker A
sucks because I I I don't know. It's like people are really afraid to be Yeah. thought of as doing something wrong or seen trying or anything. I don't know. I have many weird theories about this. Like I I
Speaker A
think so much of it has to do with like the phone in the internet.
Speaker A
Yeah. And this idea of like like I don't even think it's so weird that like you know if I was trying to cook something and I looked up a recipe, I would only see it in its most perfect form from a
Speaker A
professional chef. You know what I mean? Like you're never going to see like the thousands of attempts that they took to like get it.
Speaker A
Like you we live in this world where like you only see the finished product.
Speaker A
Yes. And you are comparing your first attempt to the finished product all the time.
Speaker A
Yeah. And that's just not how like creation works in any way. Not at all. And that's why I've been really interested in talking about process with this album because and and that's why I've been like interested in for example like the Bides
Speaker A
thing that I've been doing like you know the songs that I'm putting on there are not songs that are on the album.
Speaker A
Yeah. You have like you secretly dropped like two music videos on Bides. I did. Yes. and and I wanted to do that because it's like those songs are like adjacent to the world and a part of the process, but they're not going to be on
Speaker A
the album, but they're still part of the journey to get to the record. And there are so many songs like that when you're writing an album, generally speaking, you know, it's like you try, you like make starts, you try,
Speaker A
you fail, you are like, "Oh my god, that's the worst song I've ever written." you know, and you it's like it all sort of like helps build out the thing that you are finally getting to. And those songs are really
Speaker A
important, but sometimes don't get a life of their own. And so that's why I wanted to put like a couple That's cool. And I think it's like reflective of like again like what you said the thesis of the album is like
Speaker A
this was part of the process. They're not part of the album, but they were a part of the story to get to what the album was.
Speaker A
Exactly. Tell me about Wink Wink. Wink wink is um Wink Wink's funny. Wink Wink, I suppose, in a way is another song about persona um in that, you know, it's kind of like about um playing into the the kind of these
Speaker A
things that people sort of think Yeah. that you are and then kind of being like, but I'm not that anymore. And then it's like, well, wait, are you? It's like, you know, it's like I think there are there are, as I was saying earlier,
Speaker A
there are these boxes that people want to put you in. And this is me sort of like dancing around in that box and saturizing the box itself, I suppose.
Speaker A
You know what I mean? I suppose. Yeah, it was one of the really early songs um that we made for the album actually. It was I think kind of maybe the first really.
Speaker A
Yeah, maybe it was the first. It was one of the ones that we didn't start in Paris. We started it in London and then we finished it in Paris. Um but yeah, it's I don't know. I I think for me it's
Speaker A
very uh it's very like visually rich and silly and cute and it reminds me of like a teen movie and all that.
Speaker A
I totally agree and that's what I love about it. It's like like freaky Friday transition while she's like getting dressed but in a way that's so fun. You know what I mean? Like and I love I love music that like trans can like transport
Speaker A
you to a time and feeling in your life and that I also think does that really well. Oh, like it has transport you uh it transports me to have you seen Perks of Being a Wallflower?
Speaker A
You know what? I haven't the the Brat Green film everyone home. I haven't I haven't. It's currently on Netflix and I keep coming from Miss Letterbox herself.
Speaker A
I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it. I'm so sorry.
Speaker A
I need a Tik Tok video soon of your review of Perks of Being a Wallflower.
Speaker A
You have homework when this comes out. It's Emma Watson, right? Yeah. Okay. But there's a scene where she is they're driving through this tunnel and she gets out the roof of the car and she just like feels the winds
Speaker A
herself. She's just so free and like it's it it's like this beautiful moment of youth, you know what I mean? Like and and it's such an it's like one of those, you know, there's movie random scenes from movies that like stick in your
Speaker A
head. Totally. Okay. I promise you I will watch it. I It's been there. I think you're going to love it.
Speaker A
It's been on there on my list for a really long time. I just haven't gotten to it. This, you know, there's a lot of movies on the list.
Speaker A
There's a lot of movies on the list. You're watching them. Yeah, I'm I'm I'll never watch them all is the truth.
Speaker A
Yeah. You know, how can we How can anyone One last question I didn't get to ask you earlier, but it's like something I would really love to pick your brain about.
Speaker A
Sure. Do you think marketing is an art form? Um, yeah, I think it is too.
Speaker A
I Yes. Well, interesting. I yes yes and no. Okay. What's the yes? What's the no?
Speaker A
No. I you know what? Yes, I do. I do. I think obviously it has to come along with um art, right?
Speaker A
You know, right? Um I think uh yeah, there are so many stories to be told through marketing and I actually the thing that I'm really interested in is I think we're actually sort of like heading into this world of
Speaker A
like antiarketing now, which I'm really looking forward to. I think we've been so saturated with these really like bombastic like over-the-top campaigns like in-person events like you know it's really been about like engagement and kind of views like big scale like like yeah
Speaker A
public events like popups and d and like really kind of making music sorry music feel like three-dimensional in every single outlet. that you can possibly have, which I think is cool, but I also think it's done. Like I think
Speaker A
I think it's the pendulum swinging back. Yeah. I I think it's early still, but I think it's I think it's going that way.
Speaker A
I mean, I think, you know, the fact that like Phoebe Bridges did no phones, that's like a really big like signifier of of that, you know. I think it's going back to a more personal um experience with the art and the
Speaker A
artist. I think it's like I said, I think it's still really early, but I think it's going to come and it's probably going to come like mid next year in a more like real way, you know, but I think it's coming. I think like
Speaker A
record labels kind of got a little bit too excited about like the idea of like a public fan event. And so I think it's like those things now whilst they're still really fun, I think they feel very familiar to an audience even if they're
Speaker A
not quite registering that yet, it's like it feels like a familiar thing that we know. It's like we un we understand that language now in a way that feels less shocking and exciting.
Speaker A
Yeah. Every time there's diminished returns of it. Yeah. Exactly. And so I think you know when Phoebe is like I'm do I'm playing MSG and there's no phones that's shocking totally now rather than the whatever the opposite version rather
Speaker A
than like wall like shocking and I think also people really resonate with this almost like fly on the wall experience like I loved what you did with like the BTS of of the music videos for this album with Lobic. They're so good. And
Speaker A
even just like to like I've seen videos of just like like you're just like throwing the TV out the window from the music video and it's like like it feels like you're there.
Speaker A
You know what I mean? And it's like and then it's done and I'm like well what what what else? Like what is it? You know like I I think like people try. So people think great marketing is about conversions and I
Speaker A
think it's more so about like curiosity like can you make the viewer can you manipulate the demand and feeling of You're so right. It's about curiosity and it's about desire. I think I think with all the things that I was just
Speaker A
talking about I feel to me it feels very sort of like 2024 marketing stuff.
Speaker A
Yeah. It's like that in a way has lost an element of its like edge and desire because it's just becoming familiar because it it worked and so people want to stop. You get me in trouble. Don't you have me writing on subst.
Speaker A
Jesus Christ. Scare you. Scary. Uh, yeah. I guess I can't spell. Um, Charlie. Yeah. Sorry.
Speaker A
It was the greatest honor and privilege. Hey, I I would go with you for hours.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. It seems that you have places to be. Yeah. I just want to say like thank you for doing this.
Speaker A
Oh my god. Thank you for having me. like you there are so many art like you've talked about, you know, believing in the niche and fandom and so many artists love to say that [ __ ] and never do it.
Speaker A
And um like I'm going to show my kids this, you know what I mean? Like like it's like that's how meaningful it is to me. And and um I'm so [ __ ] excited for the album.
Speaker A
I'm excited to see you on tour. Um and I sincerely hope this is not the last time you and I cross paths.
Speaker A
It won't be. I feel it in my bones. Good. Well, thank you.
Topics:Charlie XCXNicky Reardonmusic interviewcreative processartistrypersona buildingworld buildingmusic fashion filmpop musicAG Cook
