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Miracles PROVE Catholicism

Comprehensive evidence for Catholic miracles is presented, including stigmatism, healing, and eucharistic miracles, with philosophical context and future critique.

Key Takeaways

  • Catholic miracles have extensive empirical and testimonial support including medical and scientific documentation.
  • Miracles serve different divine purposes, some authenticate divine revelation while others are personal or compassionate acts.
  • Faith is required when miracles vindicate divine revelation, as rejecting them is considered sinful.
  • Philosophical and theological frameworks are essential to understanding the nature and purpose of miracles.
  • The video is part of a broader apologetic project that will also critically examine objections and alternative explanations.

What the video covers

  • The video presents overwhelming evidence for Catholic miracles including stigmatism, healing miracles, eucharistic miracles, and Marian apparitions.
  • The presenter, Joe Schmid, a philosophy PhD candidate and recent Catholic convert, is making a three-part case for Catholicism.
  • This second video focuses on combing through the evidence for miracles without addressing alternative explanations, which will be covered in the next video.
  • Miracles are defined as divine deeds performed by God that are naturalistically inexplicable and exceed natural powers.
  • A distinction is made between vindicatory miracles, which authenticate divine revelation or messengers, and non-vindicatory miracles, which serve other purposes like compassion or healing.
  • The video discusses the philosophical background of miracles and addresses David Hume's critique.
  • Examples from scripture are used to illustrate vindicatory miracles, such as Jesus’ miracles attesting to his divine mission.
  • Private revelations and their role in confirming the deposit of faith within Catholicism are explained.
  • The video emphasizes that faith is required when miracles authenticate divine revelation, making disbelief sinful in those cases.
  • The video is part of a series that will later address objections to Catholicism and alternative explanations for the miraculous data.

Answers

Questions about this video

What types of miracles does the video discuss?

The video discusses stigmatism, healing miracles, eucharistic miracles, and Marian apparitions as evidence supporting Catholicism.

What is the difference between vindicatory and non-vindicatory miracles?

Vindicatory miracles authenticate divine revelation or messengers, requiring faith, while non-vindicatory miracles serve other purposes like compassion or healing and do not require faith.

Does the video address objections to miracles or alternative explanations?

No, this video focuses on presenting the evidence for miracles; objections and alternative explanations will be addressed in the next video of the series.

Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

00:00
Speaker A
There is overwhelming evidence for Catholic miracles. We have photographs and videos of stigmatists who supernaturally reduplicate Christ's passion wounds. And we also have multiple trained observers who witness wounds spontaneously open in their presence. We have medical documentation, pictures, x-rays, and sworn depositions for healing miracles. We have multiple blinded laboratory analyses for eucharistic miracles. We have hundreds of thousands of witnesses of apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary. In this video, I will be extensively combing through this evidence and much more besides. If you're new here, my name is Joe Schmid. I'm a philosophy PhD candidate at Princeton University, and I just converted to Catholicism. This is the second video in my three-part video series making a comprehensive case for Catholicism. The first video came out yesterday and comprises my philosophical case for theism. And the third video comes out tomorrow where I examine alternative explanations of the miraculous data covered in this video and where I'll extensively criticize Protestantism and other sects. And I'll also exhaustively respond to the best objections to Catholicism from hell, moral objections, biblical objections, theological objections, magisterial objections, and so many more objections besides. So stay tuned for that video tomorrow. All right. Hey y'all. Joe on the bike here together with St. Maxim Kobe. St. Max will pray for us together with gunners. Come on you gunners. Okay, I just want to emphasize like I want to hammer it home that in the next video, not this video, the next video I will be systematically addressing the demonic explanation, selection effect, accommodationism, etc. So that's in the next video. So hold your horses. Galma kalma kalma, right? So just keep that in mind in this video. In the next video, I'll be addressing those alternative explanations. Not this video. This video is just combing through the evidence and some of the at least primacia vindicator implications. The next video I'll examine alternative explanations. But without further ado, let's get into the evidence for miracles. Holy Ghost. Okay. So, inaugurated by miracles. So before getting into the particular miracles that support Catholicism, I'll briefly touch on the philosophy of miracles and address David Hume's critique thereof. And I once more have to shout out the resource document, by the way, because that will contain extensive links to further resources on all the miracles that I'll be covering. But let's get into the philosophy of miracles. So miracles are basically events produced by God within the natural world that are naturalistically inexplicable. In other words, they are divine deeds that exceed the powers that created things have by their natures. And here we need to distinguish vindicatory from non-vindicatory miracles. Vindicatory miracles are miracles that evidence a divine intent to authenticate or confirm a divine legate or divine revelation. In other words, vindicatory miracles involve God putting his public miraculous stamp of approval on some doctrine or some purported divine message or someone who is claiming to speak on behalf of God. That's what a divine legate is or at least a purported divine legate. You know, someone who purports to speak on behalf of God, God the creator. Non-vindicatory miracles are ones that don't evidence a divine intent to authenticate a divine message or messenger. They instead might have a whole host of other intents. Maybe to compassionate someone in need, to save someone from death, to manifest his glory, to just heal someone, etc. Ethan Muse has some helpful clarifications about these notions. I wouldn't call those miracles in my sense. In my sense, it's going to be something that exceeds the power of nature or that is basically just outside of the ordinary course of human experience that is a sign that is performed by God. A divine deed that's performed by God, a sign performed by God that exceeds the powers of nature that's naturalistically inexplicable in some way. So, we start there as a baseline understanding of what we're talking about when we're talking about miracles. Now, God can do those for a bunch of different reasons. And sometimes the reason won't even be clear why he did some but didn't do others. And so sometimes it can just be that there's a pious person who maybe has lots of mistaken religious beliefs, but God as an act of compassion or maybe even because he foresees a bunch of downstream consequences that are going to be good grants them a healing, you know, or sends them a sign that points them in a direction that's going to send them down the right path. And so it's very private and it's very personal and the intent behind it is either hard to discern or is just so generic that you couldn't really get much specific doctrinal content out of it. Then there's another type of miracle that God performs and which are recorded extensively in the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Bible which are vindicatory miracles. So basically miracles that God performs as public extraordinary signs with the intention of promulgating a revelation. So basically God's speech that he's given, he's entrusted to what we would call a divine legate. So someone who claims to speak on behalf of God, God performs an extraordinary sign to put his signature on the claims that are being made by the divine legate about what God said. And so when it's public revelation, this is the most extreme because it's when someone is demanding faith. So that means they're binding the conscience to accept the revelations as being from God and they're saying it's going to be sinful if you reject it given that God is accrediting this person to you as a divine legate. So on Pentecost when St. Peter begins preaching to the Jews, he begins with an accusation against the Jews where he says Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God by miracles, signs and wonders which he performed amongst you in your midst as you yourselves know you have given over to lawless men and crucified. And so he begins with that accusation and he says he had the signs. It was your obligation to know to recognize that God was vindicating this man's claims and that nonetheless you rejected it and so therefore that's imputable to you as sin. And so and our Lord even explicitly says this, you know, if I hadn't done among them the works that no one else did, they would be without sin. But now that I have, they have the greater sin. So he's explicitly saying that basically if he hadn't performed all of these extraordinary signs that made it so clear that he was who he said he was they would be without sin for not believing. But now that the signs are there, faith is required. They have to give faith to his claims or it's contempt for known truth, blasphemy of the spirit. And so that's the most extraordinary. There's also private revelations where God performs a public sign to confirm people in the deposit of faith that he's already entrusted to the church within the Catholic paradigm. Right? So these in themselves, no one's required to accept them except insofar as we're just required to accept credible human testimony. Right? So for instance, if a doctor comes to me and says, "Hey, your wife really needs this medical treatment. You know, you really need to encourage her to get this medical treatment." If I refuse that, I could be committing a sin by being unreasonable or obstinate in accepting the facts that I have an obligation to accept. But it's not there's no it's not a sin against faith. There's not divine faith that's being compelled. So we only owe the same credence that we would give to human testimony to these. But God still performs them with a vindicatory intent. He performs them to point people to the deposit of faith. So, it's a way of lending credibility to the things where he does demand faith by performing revelations.
00:16
Speaker A
for healing miracles. We have multiple blinded laboratory analyses for eucharistic miracles. We have hundreds of thousands of witnesses of apparitions of the blessed virgin Mary. In this video, I will be extensively combing through this evidence and much more
00:29
Speaker A
besides. If you're new here, my name is Joe Schmid. I'm a philosophy PhD candidate at Princeton University, and I just converted to Catholicism. This is the second video in my three-part video series making a comprehensive case for Catholicism. The first video came out
00:43
Speaker A
yesterday and comprises my philosophical case for theism. And the third video comes out tomorrow where I examine alternative explanations of the miraculous data covered in this video and where I'll extensively criticize Protestantism and other sex. And I'll also exhaustively respond to the best
00:59
Speaker A
objections to Catholicism from hell, moral objections, biblical objections, theological objections, magisterial objections, and so many more objections besides. So stay tuned for that video tomorrow. All right. Hey y'all. Joe on the bike here together with St. Maxim Kobe. St. Max will be pray for us
01:15
Speaker A
together with gunners. Come on you gunners. Okay, I just want to emphasize like I want to hammer it home that in the next video, not this video, the next video I will be systematically addressing the demonic explanation, selection effect, accommodationism,
01:31
Speaker A
etc. So that's in the next video. So hold your horses. Galma kalma kalma, right? So just keep that in mind in this video. In the next video, I'll be addressing those alternative explanations. Not this video. This video is just combing through the evidence and
01:43
Speaker A
some of the the at least primacia vindicator implications. The next video I'll examine alternative explanations.
01:49
Speaker A
But without further ado, let's get into the evidence for miracles. Holy Ghost. Okay. So, inaugurated by miracles. So before getting into the particular miracles that support Catholicism, I'll briefly touch on the philosophy of miracles and uh address David Hume's
02:53
Speaker A
critique thereof. And I once more have to shout out the resource document by the way because that will contain extensive links to further resources on all the miracles that I'll be covering.
03:02
Speaker A
But let's get into the philosy of miracles. So miracles are basically events produced by God within the natural world that are naturalistically inexplicable. In other words, they are divine deeds that exceed the powers that created things have by their natures.
03:15
Speaker A
And here we need to distinguish vindicatory from non-windigatory miracles. Vindicatory miracles are miracles that events a divine intent to authenticate or confirm a divine legate or divine revelation. In other words, vindicatory miracles involve God putting his public miraculous stamp of approval
03:32
Speaker A
on some doctrine or some puditive divine message or someone who is claiming to speak on behalf of God. That's what a divine leate is or at least a purported divine leate. You know, someone who purports to speak on behalf of God, God
03:43
Speaker A
the creator. Non-windigatory miracles are ones that don't events a divine intent to authenticate a divine message or messenger. They instead might have a whole host of other intents. Maybe to compassionate someone in need, to save someone from death, to manifest his
03:56
Speaker A
glory, to just heal someone, etc. Ethan Muse has some helpful clarifications about these notions.
04:01
Speaker A
I I I wouldn't call those miracles in my sense. In in my sense, it's going to be something that exceeds the power of nature or that is basically just outside of the ordinary course of human experience that is a sign that is
04:16
Speaker A
performed by God. A divine deed that's performed by God, a sign performed by God that exceeds the powers of nature that's naturalistically inexplicable in some way. So, we start there as a baseline understanding of what we're talking about when we're talking about
04:28
Speaker A
miracles. Now, God can do those for a bunch of different reasons. And sometimes the reason won't even be clear why he did some but didn't do others.
04:37
Speaker A
And so sometimes it can just be that there's a pious person who maybe has lots of mistaken religious beliefs, but God as an act of compassion or maybe even because he foresees a bunch of downstream consequences that are going
04:48
Speaker A
to be good grants them a healing, you know, or sends them a sign that points them in a direction that's going to send them down the right path. And so it's very private and it's very personal and the intent behind it is either hard to
05:00
Speaker A
discern or is just so generic that you couldn't really get much you know specific doctrinal content out of it.
05:06
Speaker A
Then there's another type of miracle that God performs and which are recorded extensively in the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Bible which are vindicatory miracles. So basically miracles that God performs as public extraordinary signs with the intention
05:21
Speaker A
of promulgating a revelation. So basically God's speech that he's given, he's entrusted to what we would call a divine legate. So someone who claims to speak on behalf of God, God performs an extraordinary sign to put his signature
05:34
Speaker A
on the claims that are being made by the divine legate about what God said. And so when it's public revelation, this is the most extreme because it's when someone is demanding faith. So that means they're binding the conscience to
05:48
Speaker A
accept the revelations as being from God and they're saying it's going to be sinful if you reject it given that God God is accrediting this person to you as a divine legate. So on Pentecost when St. Peter begins preaching to the Jews,
06:00
Speaker A
he begins with an accusation against the Jews where he says Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God by miracles, signs and wonders which he performed amongst you in your midst as you yourselves know you have given over to
06:12
Speaker A
lawless men and crucified. And so he begins with that accusation and he says he had the signs. It was your obligation to know to recognize that God was vindicating this man's claims and that nonetheless you rejected it and so
06:24
Speaker A
therefore that's imputable to you as sin. And so and our ward even explicitly says this, you know, if I hadn't done among them the works that no one else did, they would be without sin. But now that I have, they have the greater sin. So
06:36
Speaker A
he's explicitly saying that basically if he hadn't performed all of these extraordinary signs that made it so clear that he was who he said he was they would be without sin for not believing.
06:46
Speaker A
But now that the signs are there faith is required. He they have to give faith to his claims or it's contempt for known truth blasphemy of the spirit. And so that's the most extraordinary. There's also private revelations where God
06:58
Speaker A
performs a public sign to confirm people in the deposit of faith that he's already entrusted to the church in within the Catholic paradigm. Right? So these in themselves, no one's required to accept them except in so far as we're
07:12
Speaker A
just required to accept credible human testimony. Right? So for instance, if a doctor comes to me and says, "Hey, your wife really needs this medical treatment. You know, you really need to encourage her to get this medical treatment." If I refuse that, I could be
07:25
Speaker A
committing a sin by being unreasonable or obstinate in accepting the facts that I have an obligation to accept. But it's not there's no it's not a sin against faith. There's not divine faith that's being compelled. So we only owe the same
07:37
Speaker A
credence that we would give to human testimony to these. But God still performs them with a vindicatory intent.
07:42
Speaker A
He performs them to point people to the deposit of faith. So, it's a way of lending credibility to the things where he does demand faith by performing revelations that confirm that and point to that and refer people back towards
07:53
Speaker A
it. And so, vindicatory is really about the intent that God has to reveal truths and then to elicit a scent to those revealed truths from the people that he performs the miracles, you know, in the context of or as the audience.
08:08
Speaker A
Well, what about these claims that people make where they say, "Well, everybody has miracle claims." So like even if your miracles check out like who cares?
08:16
Speaker A
And so this was something that I really wanted to hammer home to people when I started writing about it. And it I think the first time I ever appreciated it was when I saw a priest go on Pints with
08:26
Speaker A
Aquinas and make this point where he had a science background but he and he was presenting the miraculous case for Catholicism on Pints with Aquinus and I had heard him make this point and I really appreciated that point which is
08:38
Speaker A
basically just no there's really this distinction between just the fact that miracles have taken place in a religious context and then the doctrinal content that the miracle is intended to vindicate. Right. Sure. A miracle being performed with the intent to confirm a
08:53
Speaker A
revelation and to promulgate a revelation is a is categorically different from a miracle that's being performed, you know, in answer to a prayer as a reward for faith or to confirm someone in faith. Right.
09:06
Speaker A
I think that's common sense, right? Yeah. And but mean and it starts to get to the veracity of God when you start denying that vindicatory miracles could actually point you to the true religion. It's basically it would be God bearing
09:20
Speaker A
witness to a lie because miracles are the way that he can sign his signature to a revelation objectively rather than subjectively. Right? So if there were to be any objective signs by which you could determine whether God had spoken
09:32
Speaker A
to the world, it would need to be that there were rules for when certain miracles or things with the false appearance of being miracles could be performed in furtherance of a revelation to promulgate it. And especially another thing that I came to appreciate later
09:46
Speaker A
when I started studying this field of fundamental theology is that there was a real difference to between cases where a person was just working a miracle and they had religious beliefs that were incidental to the miracle that they worked. So even a
10:01
Speaker A
person is a miracle worker and when a person is demanding faith. So they're actually trying to say here's a divine law that I'm promulgating and I'm trying to bind your conscience to accept it to where you're sin if you reject what I'm
10:14
Speaker A
saying. And I realized that there was a totally different thing where it would be scandalous for God to support rather than to oppose somebody who was going out and trying to bind consciences to accept your revelation. And I realize
10:27
Speaker A
that really matters even for private revelations for Catholicism because even if the prophetesses in Fatima doesn't claim to be able to bind the conscience, the miracle is confirming the Catholic Church which is a divine legate which does claim to bind the conscience. So
10:43
Speaker A
it's it is actually even the private revelations can have the same sort of force because they're occurring in the context of the Catholic Church's claims to speak on behalf of God and confirming us in that and pointing us to it. And so
10:57
Speaker A
once I started to appreciate that distinction, I started to realize, okay, well, this really is an empirical question, you know?
11:03
Speaker A
Yeah. Has God what has God performed vindicatory miracles to support? Well, so when we're talking about proving a religion, so proving that there's some special revelation that has taken place and there's some kind of cultic system that's been instituted by God or law
11:20
Speaker A
that's been promulgated by God, we need a way of telling when God has spoken to humanity and especially when he's done so in a public way. So in a way where we're actually it's through an investigation of motives motives of
11:36
Speaker A
credibility that we're going to determine whether the revelation a purported revelation is authentic or inauthentic that when when that occurs there need to be some kind of way for God to sign his signature to a revelation and properly
11:53
Speaker A
when it comes to objective signs. So ones that so subjective might be like an immediate revelation to an individual where knowledge is infused into them or they're given the botific vision or whatever um for basically some kind of
12:05
Speaker A
direct personal encounter with God that's ineffable you know and they can't really communicate it or demonstrate it to others. But when it comes to objective revelation, so revelation that's being promulgated and where the way that people are going to inquire
12:19
Speaker A
into it is through looking for objective signs rather than just appealing to like personal experience or like praying and asking for confirmation, then it's mainly going to be an issue of divine deeds. So basically certain kinds of um
12:34
Speaker A
created effects that are proper to God. So they exceed the powers of nature where God is performing them with the intent to confirm a purported message.
12:44
Speaker A
And so you can do that with respect to like a divine legate. So someone who purports to speak on behalf of God and who claims the authority to bind consciences to accept a revelation. So basically demanding faith. He can do so
12:57
Speaker A
by confirming the authority of that individual either by working miracles through them or by just working miracles that they predict in advance or announce in connection with their purported revelations or whether just the content of the sign that's performed just
13:12
Speaker A
clearly evinces an intent to vindicate that individual. And so basically, if we want objective revelation to be possible at all, we basically need for something like miracles to be able to be credentials that can be used to authenticate either a purported divine
13:28
Speaker A
messenger or at the very least a message from God. Um, and so then this requires something called spiritual discernment to be possible. So basically it to be possible to recognize when a miracle is a true miracle. So when it has to be a
13:43
Speaker A
divine deed that was performed in confirmation of some revelation. And so if you have a worldview like Catholics do and like Jews do where there are evil spirits that can do things that are prednatural. So they basically are
13:58
Speaker A
outside the ordinary course of human experience and to us have could have the false appearance of being a divine deed by agents that intend to deceive us or to mislead us. God, if he wants to preserve the possibility of objective
14:13
Speaker A
revelation, needs to impose limits on those deceptions that make it possible to distinguish when a true miracle has taken place from when a false miracle has taken place. And so therefore, basically just starting out, if we establish the premise that objective
14:28
Speaker A
revelation is possible and that God wants to make it possible and that he can confirm it by means other than just immediate revelation to individuals. So we basically don't want to avoid fidism.
14:39
Speaker A
We want there to be able to be like a rational communicable basis for a reasonable faith. Then we all need to basically admit of the possibility of divine deeds as a way of God signing a signature. Now, I won't only be covering
14:50
Speaker A
vindicatory miracles in what follows, but many of them are. And where appropriate, I'll flag the doctrinal content being vindicated. But first, some of you might be wondering, well, didn't Hume just like decisively refute the argument for miracles a long while
15:02
Speaker A
back? Uh, no. No, he did not. So Hume of course argues that well there's scholarly debate about what exactly he mean you know what what his argument is etc but Hume basically argues that a miracle by definition is a violation of
15:14
Speaker A
the laws of nature and our evidence for those laws rests on a firm and uniform experience since testimony is often mistaken or exaggerated or deceptive.
15:22
Speaker A
You know we should believe a miracle report only if the falsity of the testimony would be even more miraculous than the vent it reports. But that'll never happen according to Hume since the evidence for the laws of nature is just
15:32
Speaker A
so overwhelming. Like it's basically, you know, our universal experience attests to the laws of nature and their inviability and miracles not happening.
15:39
Speaker A
So the proof against a miracle is as firm as ever basically. But this is a bad objection to miracles. First of all, Hume, what uniform experience? What are you what uniform experience to inviable laws of nature? Right? Like what are you
15:52
Speaker A
talking about? Like since when can we help ourselves from the get-go to the idea that oh yes, we all definitely uniformly experience the laws of nature always operating, never being exceeded or suspended under any circumstances?
16:03
Speaker A
Like what? What? No, that just assumes from the get-go that like the billions of reported experiences of miracles throughout history and today are mistaken. But that's the thing you're very that's like the very thing you're trying to establish, Mr. Hume. Uh as my
16:15
Speaker A
best friend No mccay put it. So I'll start by presenting some statistics about miracle reports worldwide. Then I'll summarize the evidence for a particularly compelling alleged miracle. And finally, I'll explain how miracles are supposed to support theism.
16:32
Speaker A
Now, in 2006, Pew Research conducted a survey of Christians in 10 countries, including the United States, and found that in those 10 countries alone, which contained only about onethird of the global population, approximately 200 million Christians believed that they
16:49
Speaker A
had witnessed miraculous healings. In a 2004 survey by the Lewis Finkelstein Institute at the Jewish Theological Seminary found that 55% of American medical doctors believed that they had witnessed miraculous healings. And note, these aren't just people who believe in miracles. These
17:07
Speaker A
are people who claim to have seen miracles with their own eyes. And why do I bring this up? Well, often non-theists say that miracle claims fit so poorly with our ordinary experience that we should start out with a very strong
17:21
Speaker A
presumption against any alleged miracle. Uh, but I think this is unreasonable. If hundreds of millions of people worldwide claim to have witnessed a phenomenon, and if most of the experts best positioned to verify that phenomenon also claim to have witnessed it, it's
17:39
Speaker A
just not true that the relevant phenomenon fits poorly with our experience. And I think it would be unreasonable to be confident from the outset that all of those lay people and experts were mistaken.
17:49
Speaker A
Second, Hume's argument leads to absurdities. Specifically, if the argument worked, then it would also imply that awesome, miraculous evidence should never convince us of a miracle.
17:58
Speaker A
But that's absurd. Surely, there is some amount of evidence that would be able to convince you that something supernatural occurred. You know, like you and all of your friends, right, are watching this.
18:11
Speaker A
You see this person, you're interacting with them. You feel their leg. They don't have a leg. It's a person who had their leg amputated. And like you feel the stump. You have videos of the stump beforehand. You have the doctor's notes
18:20
Speaker A
saying that they amputated it, you know, about a decade ago. Signed, notorized. You go and talk to the doctors like, "Yeah, I know this person. This is my patient. I amputated their leg." Like dozens of people examine it. Okay. Then
18:31
Speaker A
we take this person to a church. We're all praying around. We literally see a leg magic kind of just instantaneously regrow on that. All of us say this like we produce signed documented reports from doctors afterwards. It was
18:43
Speaker A
recorded. We look at the recording on our phones. like we we get experts to I mean we can cook up the case where it's like clearly it would be rational to think that a miracle occurred in that case even though it seems like we would
18:54
Speaker A
be able to like run a similar argument it's like well I mean hold on a second our universal experience is that miracles don't happen and you know you're proposing here a violation of the laws of nature which just runs contrary
19:04
Speaker A
to everyone's experience it's like I mean come on like you know so I'm here imagining a case right where we have basically like awesome miraculous evidence awesome evidence for a miracle and if Hume's argument worked we should not conclude clue that a miracle
19:16
Speaker A
occurred in that case. But since that's absurd, Hume's argument fails. Third, I've already argued that theism is super likely on purely philosophical grounds.
19:24
Speaker A
And given theism, it would not be super surprising that God might want to publicly reveal himself in some way to establish a relationship with us and make known his existence and desires for our lives. But then it simply follows
19:36
Speaker A
that it wouldn't be super surprising if miracles occur sometimes, in which case their prior is not negligible in the way that Hume's argument requires. The evidence for miracles can then overcome their not super low prior probability, provided that puditive naturalistic
19:50
Speaker A
explanations involving insane conspiracies and group hallucinations and fabricated medical and laboratory evidence and whatnot do have super low priors. Oh, and here's a hugely important point. Even if you disagree with my case for theism, Hume's argument still fails. In light of the higher
20:05
Speaker A
order evidence from reasonable and intelligent people believing in God and the fact that you often make mistakes about philosophical matters and in light of the at least at least like non-silly reasons to think theism's intrinsic probability is not super low and has at
20:16
Speaker A
least some non-silly evidence in its favor. Everyone should grant that theism's probability before examining the miraculous evidence is at least not negligible. And that's ultimately all I need to show that miracles aren't negligibly likely before examining the evidence since it's also not negligibly
20:32
Speaker A
likely conditional on theism that God might reveal himself in some way to his creatures. And you know, you multiply those probabilities together and you're going to get a non-negligible prior for miracles. Fourth, and relatedly, the fact that nature generally tends to
20:43
Speaker A
operate uniformly according to laws of nature is contrahume not good reason to think that there are no miracles since the hypothesis that miracles occur actually predicts that, right? In order for a miracle to occur and serve as a
20:54
Speaker A
divine sign, it needs to be clear that it's not naturally explainable so that we can recognize its supernatural origin. But this means that in order for a miracle to occur, we would positively expect that it runs entirely contrary to
21:06
Speaker A
the normal operation of nature when left to itself. And you know, I say relatedly here because, you know, we also do need some reason to think that the breaks and the uniformity that miracles require aren't hopelessly unlikely on our
21:15
Speaker A
background knowledge before taking into account the miracle evidence. But that's precisely what I showed in my previous response, right? So first, theism is not hopelessly unlikely on our background knowledge before looking at the miraculous evidence. And second, conditional on theism and our background
21:25
Speaker A
knowledge. It's not hopelessly unlikely that God might perform miracles to establish a relationship with us or a system of worship or moral code or whatever. Uh Dr. Tim Mcgru nicely explains this uh fourth point in the following. Here's a quotation
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about Hume's argument regarding miracles. quote, "Hume's argument is largely derivative, almost wholly without merit where it is original, and worst of all, reveals the impoverishment of his treatment of inductive reasoning." Wow. Which apologist said that?
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None. This is the judgment of John Earman, who is an agnostic philosopher of science, recently retired from the University of Pittsburgh.
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What is an agnostic philosopher of science doing writing about Hume's critique of miracles? Why would he care?
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And why would he say things like this about it? Hang with us tonight and you'll get a taste of that. I'd like to make three key points about reported miracles.
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To me, these seem obvious, but obviously to some people, they are not. So, here are the three points that I would like to make. First, the existence of a stable order of nature, a way things normally happen, does not count as evidence against the
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existence of miracles, at least if they are supposed to function as signs in a religious context. That's my first claim. I will have to argue for that claim. I can't get away simply with asserting it. I need to provide you with
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reasons for believing it. Here is my second claim, which if possible, seems to me even more transparent. It ought to be possible to change one's mind about miracles.
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But again, this is not as obvious to some people as it seems to me. My third claim, and this will be controversial as well, though I don't really see why it should be, is that the proper way to
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arrive at a reasonable belief is to examine the evidence in detail. We don't always have the luxury to do that. Life is short. Sometimes the beliefs aren't important, but when they are important and we do have the time and the ability
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to do it, that's what we should do. The more so if incredibly important things hang on the issue. So let's go to point one. I claim the existence of a stable order of nature does not count as evidence against the existence of
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miracles, at least if they're supposed to function as signs in a religious context. That claim is flatly contradicted by Hume. Here's Hume on the order of nature. A miracle is a violation of the laws of nature.
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And as a firm and unalterable experience has established these laws, the proof against a miracle in from the very nature of the fact is as entire as any argument from experience can possibly be imagined. Now, let's put on our
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translation software here and try to see what does this mean in non-filosopher speak. You've got an argument that can't be beat.
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somebody else brings other arguments against it, what's going to happen? The argument that can't be beat, it's going to win. It's just the way it is. So, what Hume is saying is there is an argument from the very nature of the
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fact when you call something a miracle that is as entire as any experiential argument you could possibly have. Well, then I guess we're done, right? But Hume's contemporaries weren't so impressed by what he had to say.
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Here is William Adams for a short while Samuel Johnson's Latin tutor writing in response to Hume's essay.
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See if you can see past the antiquity of the language to the point beneath. And experienced uniformity in the course of nature hath been always thought necessary to the belief and use of miracles. These are indeed relative ideas. There must be an ordinary regular
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court course of nature before there can be anything extraordinary. A river must flow before its stream can be interrupted.
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What is Adams telling us? He's saying look you can't have an interruption of the course of nature unless there's a course of nature to be interrupted.
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If somewhere around the globe, scattered about there are some people who can turn water into wine, say one person out of every 10,000. What would we say of the report that Jesus of Nazareth had turned water into wine?
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Oh, bet you he was one of them, right? That would be obvious. Why would we say I think God was reaching into space and time and doing something there if this were just something that a few people can do, if
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it were a natural phenomenon. And thinking of it that way, thinking of the course of nature and its interruption leads us, I think, to a better definition of a miracle. And I'm taking this definition not from my fellow Christian apologists, but from
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the atheist philosopher JL Mackey. I'll paraphrase here, but this is Macky's approach. Laws of nature tell us how nature behaves when it is left to itself. But they do not tell us whether or how often it is left to itself. A
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miracle is not a violation of the laws of nature as if it could take place only if the laws were false. It's a violation of what we call the causal closure of the physical world. the idea that all
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events are the inevitable result of prior physical events. So that everything that happens is happening the way it is because of prior physical events. You can do a nondeterministic little wiggle on that if you like your quantum theory. But the basic idea is
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nothing outside of natural causes causes anything happen in nature. A miracle would be a violation of the causal closure of nature.
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Now, there's a general principle of evidence, and here I tread delicately because this is the place where we get the closest to that mathy stuff. Here's the principle in non-equation form. If on the supposition that M, which I've
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cleverly chosen to stand for a miracle, were true, it would be inevitable also that O be true, then O cannot be evidence against M. So whatever it is that you're observing, oh if a miracle kind of requires it, then it's not
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evidence against a miracle. Now here's the thing. In religious contexts, miracles are supposed to function as signs. What does Nicodemus say when he comes to Jesus by night in John 3? Rabbi, we know you are a teacher sent from God. Why? How do we
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know? No one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him. They show you God's endorsement.
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So in a religious context, this is what miracles are supposed to be. How do we know something's a miracle? Because it's not the kind of thing that happens when nature is left to itself.
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Miracles that function as signs would be impossible unless they took place against the backdrop of a stable natural order.
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That's what lets us see them as signs. Remember, if water into wine is something a few people can do, like mastering a good card trick. Then when you hear Jesus turned water into wine, that's how you classify it. Natural
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event, nothing to see here. These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along. Therefore, the existence of a stable order of nature cannot be used as an argument against miracles in religious contexts.
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So, I'm a philosopher. We like to do stuff like that. We like to lay out our premises and then put the word therefore in and then number another line and call that the conclusion. And some of you aren't wired that way. So, I'm going to
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try to do this in a different way. I'm going to try to do this graphically.
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Here's a sign. This is a sign that has a message on it that I very much want you to get.
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The trouble is I have used the same color for the font that I've used for the background.
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And that kind of makes it hard to see this as a sign. But I really really want you to get the message.
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and you're saying, "I I'm not feeling it. The burning in my bosom isn't doing it for me." Okay. So, what if we make it a more helpful sign? How about this?
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Now, you're tracking with me. Now, you're saying, "Oh, I there's a background and then there's a message up against it." That's what a miracle is like. Miracles stand out from the background of the way nature goes.
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The virgin birth. Some people on the internet seem to think they can really persuade Christians out of the virgin birth if they say, "PS, modern science, right? Just how ignorant was a first century Jew didn't know where babies come from?"
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What is Joseph minded to do when he discovers Mary's pregnant? Divorce her privately? Because he's a good man. He doesn't want to cause more scandal than he has to. He knows where babies come from.
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The resurrection of Jesus. Jesus. Huh? Yeah. Well, DEAD PEOPLE STAY DEAD. YEAH. THAT'S THE POINT, RIGHT? That's why THIS IS A MIRACLE. IT DOESN'T HAPPEN in the course of nature when nature is left to itself. Ergo. If it happened, nature wasn't left to
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itself. That's kind of the whole deal. And we're not going to be talked out of it by being told there's something a little odd about it.
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Yeah, we know. Finally, just look at the evidence, my friend. Stop being close-minded. Open yourself up to the possibility that you might be wrong. And maybe, just maybe, God exists and wants to reveal something publicly. I contend that when you actually consult the
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evidence, it is clearly less probable that a conspiracy of conspiracies has happened to make it look exactly as if God exists and is revealing religious truth. Just look at the evidence and see that it's more likely that a miracle
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occurred than that there are oodles of conspiracies involving millions of people and fabricated laboratory analyses and fabricated medical documentation and fabricated photos and videos and so on. Here's one final thing. Hume actually got something right in his discussion of miracles. I I know
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that's a miracle in of itself. No, specifically he briefly discusses and sumearily dismisses without evidence uh some highly well-eceded Catholic miracles. Here's a passage from his famous essay of miracles. The learning genius and property of the gentleman and
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the austerity of the nuns of Port Royale have been much celebrated all over Europe. Yet they all give evidence for a miracle wrought on the niece of the famous Pascal whose sanctity of life as well as extraordinary capacity is
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wellknown. The famous rsine gives an account of this miracle in his famous history of Port Royale and fortifies it with all the proofs which a multitude of nuns, priests, physicians, and men of the world, all of them of undoubted
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credit, could bestow upon it. Several men of letters, particularly the bishop of Toure, thought this miracle so certain as to employ it in the reputation of atheists and freethinkers.
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Queen Regent of France, who was extremely prejudiced against the Port Royale, sent her own physician to examine the miracle, who returned an absolute convert. In short, the supernatural cure was so uncontestable that it saved for a time that famous
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monastery from the ruin with which it was threatened by the Jesuits. Had it been a cheat, it had certainly been detected by such sagacious and powerful antagonists and must have hastened the ruin of the contvers, our divines, that
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is our Protestant divines in Britain who can build up a formidable case from such despicable materials. He's talking about like the resurrection, the miracles that they appeal to. What a prodigious fabric could they have reared from these and
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many other circumstances which I have not mentioned. How often would the great names of Pascal, Rine, Arno, Nicole have resounded in our ears? But if they be wise, they had better adopt the miracle as being more worth a thousand times
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than all the rest of their collection. So Hume is basically saying, look at the flimsy historical miracles from which our British Protestant apologists construct elaborate arguments for the miracles of Christianity. If they had evidence as impressive as Catholic
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miracles for one of their favorite miracles, imagine how loudly they would trumpet Pascal and Rine and Arno and Nicole, the physicians, the hostile investigators, and so on. If they were consistent, he says, they ought simply to accept this Catholic miracle, too,
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because its evidential case is worth vastly more than the evidence for other miracles that they do accept and deploy in their case for Christianity, like the resurrection. So, he is like literally poking fun of Protestants because they reject Catholic miracles that are
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manifestally better evidence than the resurrection. and you'll soon see that he is most certainly correct.
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Now, obviously, the Catholic miracles aren't as, you know, theologically significant or important as the resurrection. You know, that's like the most theologically significant event of all time. Don't get me wrong, but here we're only talking about evidential strength. So, we're about to dig into
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the miraculous case. Buckle up, buckos. Uh, so here's an overview. I'm going to go through seven different broad categories of miraculous phenomena.
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First, saintly miracles. So, miracles in the lives of saints, mystical charisms, things like that. Secondly, medically documented healing miracles. Third, Marian apparitions. Fourth, eucharistic miracles. Fifth, demonic phenomena.
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Sixth, the resurrection. And seventh, miraculous artifacts. And note that in part six of the video, we're currently in part five. Remember remember my dear brethren, we're in part five on miracles. In part six of the video, I will extensively examine alternative
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explanations of the miracles that appeal to demons, divine accommodation, lesser spirits running them up and performing all these miracles. For now, I just want to share the evidence and the at least like primapacia on the face like clear
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vindicatory ev implications thereof. Okay. So, first up, saintly miracles and we're starting with, drum roll please, Padre Peio. So, Padre Pio was a 20th century Italian Catholic saint and mystic. Here, I'll be quoting directly and extensively from Ethan Muse's
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article on Padre Peio with only minor commentary rarely sprinkled in on my end. I'll also switch to reading through his article halfway through.
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The evidence here concerns St. Pio's supernatural charrorisms or gifts. Specifically, specifically, we'll focus on five. First, the stigmata or the supernatural reduplication of Christ's passion moons in both of his hands, in both of his feet, and his side. Second,
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supernatural blood loss, or losing more blood than is naturally possible. Third, the odor of sanctity, or an intense, beautiful fragrance associated with him and his relics. Fourth, supernatural hypothermia, or extremely high fevers that are naturalistically inexplicable.
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And fifth, his healing miracles. I'll then look at Padre Pio's heroic virtue. And finally, the Catholic vindicatory implications of the aforementioned. So, first up, we got the stigmata. You know, of course, we have videos of him doing mass where you can like see the, you
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know, blood on his hands. We have pictures of him. This is a picture made way earlier on in his life. Um, you know, we we got pictures of this guy. We got videos. He's a 20th century saint.
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His stigmata were extensively documented. The evidentiary record includes canonical investigations, medical examinations, photographs, and video footage. So first the onset in private correspondence in sworn testimony St. Pio reported that on the morning of se September 20th 1918 while
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praying after mass in the friy choir he entered into an ecstatic state in which he perceived Christ in the posture of a man being crucified. Christ lamented the ingratitude of men especially those with religious vocations. St. Peio asked what
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he could do to which Christ replied I unite you to my passion. When St. Peio returned to his senses he discovered that bloody lesions had spontaneously formed on his hands, feet and side. The evolution or the change over time of the
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stigmata. And and you know, we're about to go through some like the documentary evidence for these points. These are just like the broad points at the beginning that that Ethan highlights.
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From their onset in 1918 until their resolution in 1968, so that's five decades. St. Peio's lesions neither healed nor progressed in a manner consistent with natural physiology. The shapes and positions of the lesions on the hands and feet were consistent over
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time, circular, regular, and symmetrical on both sides of each appendage, but their depths were not. Sometimes they presented as full thickness perforations throughout the entire hand. Sometimes they presented as extremely superficial.
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The lesion on the side was even more labile, varying in shape, position, and depth. Exodation. St. Peio's lesions continuously discharged blood through escars. Chronic bleeding persisted for half a century. Throughout the early years, the lesions were almost always
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bleeding. So much so that several diapers were soaked in blood each day. In subsequent decades, the flow gradually diminished, but it never seized altogether. Despite substantial loss of blood, St. Peio did not exhibit signs of anemia, hypotension, or
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pathological fatigue. Hemological tests confirmed that his blood and circulation remained completely normal. Scent: St.
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Po's lesions and the blood that poured out of them were not malodorous. To the contrary, they sporadically emitted a very pleasant and intense scent.
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Testimonies about the perfume before and after death are innumerable. Alone, they would be enough to fill a large volume.
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The scent was sensed at times in waves inside the cell and outside when he walks by, in his spot in the choir, even from a distance. Bandages, clothes, and hair retained the scent for long periods of time, months on end, even years on
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end after being removed from contact with St. Peio. And then finally, the resolution of the wounds. In the final years of St. Pio's life, his lesions gradually disappeared. By September 22nd, 1968, the date of his last mass, only the lesion on his left palm
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remained. On September 23rd, 1968, St. Peio passed away. Within minutes of his death, his hands, feet, and chest were examined and photographed. The skin and those points referred to was the same as that of any other part of the body,
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soft, elastic, and mobile. The appearance, color, and consistency did not reveal anything in particular, nor do they reveal the presence of signs of previous incisions, lacerations, wounds, soores, or inflammatory inflammatory reactions. We got photos of this. We'll go through it later. Okay. So, let's
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turn to the legions themselves. In September 1918, on September 20th and September 21st, parishioners and friars begin to notice that there are lesions on St. Pio's hands, that he is having difficulty walking, that he his face is redder than usual. A few days later,
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Father Palino informs the convent that Padre Pio had received the wounds of the Lord. That is the stigmata of Jesus in his heart, in his hands, and in his feet. In October 1918, in private correspondence with father Benadetto,
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provincial minister of the captains, St. Peio provides a firsthand account of his stigmatization. What shall I tell you regarding what you asked me about how my crucifixion occurred? My God, what confusion and humiliation I experienced in having to manifest what you have
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worked in this wretched creature of yours? It was the morning of the 20th of the past month after the celebration of Holy Mass when I was overtaken by rest like a gentle sleep. All the internal and external senses as well as the very
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faculties of the soul found themselves in an indescribable stillness. In all of this, there was total silence around me and within me. Immediately there followed a great peace and an abandonment to complete privation of everything and arresting in that very
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ruin. All this happened in an instant. And while all this was taking place, I saw before me a mysterious person, similar to the one seen on the evening of the 5th of August, differing only in this, that his hands, his feet, and his
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side were dripping with blood. His sight terrified me. What I felt at that moment within myself, I would not know how to express. I felt I was dying, and I would have died had the Lord not intervened to
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sustain my heart, which I felt was leaping out of my chest. The vision of the person withdraws, and I noticed my hands, feet, and side were pierced and dripping with blood. Imagine the tearing that I experienced then, and that I
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continue to experience almost every day. The wound on the heart pours forth blood continually, especially from Thursday evening until Saturday. My father, I am dying of pain because of the tearing and because of the subsequent confusion that I experience in the depths of my soul. I
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fear that I will die from loss of blood if the Lord does not listen to the groans of my poor heart. And withdrawing this operation from me put an end to it.
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Your most affectionate son, Far Peio. In February 1918, Father Benedetto examined St. Pio's lesions. In private correspondence with another priest, he reports that Padre Pio doesn't have spots or marks, but real sores perforating his hands and his feet. I
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observe the one he has on his side, a real tear that continually drips blood.
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And when he celebrates mass, the gift is visible to the public since he has to keep his bare hands up. Father Benedetto clarified after that if I were questioned by higher authorities on this particular point. I would have to
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respond and confirm under oath such as the sincerity of the impression impression I received that by fixing one's gaze on the wounds of the palmer region of his hands, it would have been easy to discern in their details a
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written text or an object previously placed on the opposite side of them. In May 1919, Dr. Angelo Mera, atheist mayor of San Giovani Rotando, examines the lesions. He concludes that these lesions could hardly be classified as tuberculosis. But due to the lack of
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complete examination, he was unable to determine their precise nature. Dr. Luigi Romanelli, chief surgeon at the civil hospital of Barleta, also examines the lesions and describes them as follows. In the palmer regions of both hands, and more precisely at the level
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of a third metacarpal, simple inspection reveals a reddish viscous pigmentation of the skin over a surface approximately the size of a bronze 5-cent coin on the right hand and a two-centent coin on the left. The contours are slightly frayed
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and the shape is almost circular. Upon closer examination, one notes that in this area, instead of normal skin, there's an epithelium, or rather a shiny membrane somewhat raised at the center, forming a very small button-like elevation from which radiate many fine
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striations that are darker and tending almost toward black. The entire area is raised above the surrounding tissues, which are intact and normal. On palpation, delicately performed, no bony or muscular resistance is perceived beneath. Instead, one notes that this
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membrane is distinctly elastic and there is no actual opening nor any discharge of fluid. In the dorsal regions of both hands, at points almost corresponding to those just described, the skin presents identical features. Applying the thumb to the palm of the hand and the index
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finger to the dorsome, thus covering in this manner the two described zones and exerting pressure which proves extremely painful for firepio. One has the exact perception of a void existing between the two fingers separated only by membranes and by thin soft tissue which
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under pressure gives the sensation of sand while no resistance is perceived either from the bones or from the soft tissues normally present in these regions. All active and passive movements of the hands are performed without difficulty and are perfectly
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physiological. From this it follows that these pigmented zones are nothing other than membranes covering an opening which originates on one side and terminates on the other such that there is a discontinuity of tissues through the thickness of the hand. On the dorsome of
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both feet there is furthermore noted a circular area about the size of a 5-cent coin likewise covered by a membrane of vivid red color and shiny appearance with well- definfined and precise contours surrounded by normal tissues.
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On palpation this membrane is likewise elastic and gives the impression of an underlying void. In the planter regions, identical areas are observed with the same characteristics by compressing simultaneously both the dorsal and planter regions. He's talking about the
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feet right now. It becomes evident that an empty space exists and that the foot is perforated. The openings being covered by the described membrane as in the hands. So in the feet, all movements of the joints and toes are normal and
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provoke no disturbance whatsoever. In the left hemthorax and more precisely between the mammalary line and the anterior axillary line approximately the level of the six intercostal space there is observed a linear lacerated wound oriented along the direction of the ribs
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about 7 cm in length with clean and slightly puckered margins involving the soft tissues. On inspection the wound lies directly from below upward and penetrates somewhat from outside inward with arterial bleeding. As in all thoracic wounds probing cannot be
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performed and therefore it is difficult to judge how far it penetrates and what direction it assumes within the cavity.
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The characteristics of the wound are those of a cutting injury. All of these lesions date as his superiors report from September 1918. In my judgment, these wounds cannot be classified among ordinary wounds, whether of infectious or traumatic origin. In the former, the
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principal characteristic is separation, which while on the one hand impedes healing, on the other is always the effect of an action of the action of some localized microorganism, something which is absolutely lacking the lesions described above as even a lay person in
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matters of health can observe. As for the latter, especially those of the hands and the feet, it is logically absurd that a trauma of whatever nature and by whatever means produced, could injure deep tissues without first injuring the superficial ones, weak and
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fully resistant as they are, such as those observed in the hands and feet. Nor could one, excluding the thoracic wound, invoke and explain the lesions of the feet and hands by appealing to a healing already achieved with residual
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echimosis. Because it is known that in healing, by second intention, the skin and epithelium are always the last to reproduce themselves. after processes of granulation and new tissue formation.
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While in the hands and feet, the lesions show no tendency towards such tegumentaryary formation. In the thoracic wound as well, although without any suitable medication, as I had the opportunity to observe twice at different hours, see like he's observing
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this multiple times, there is not the slightest trace of separation. Instead, there is red physiological blood. Cases of self-injury due to a morbid state of the nervous system haven't indeed been recorded into which one might attempt to classify the lesions described. But
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before rendering such a judgment, it must be considered that even such lesions must follow the course of all others. that is either produce complications of some kind or heal. And that whatever the nervous state may be, it is not possible to injure underlying
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tissues without first injuring the superficial ones, just as it is not possible by any effort whatsoever to maintain a lesion, however slight, always in the same state. Nor do these wounds have a course of healing different from that of others. Against
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all these considerations stands the certain fact that Padreio's lesions from September until today preserve the same appearance and remain in the same condition. And what is even more astonishing, they produce no disturbance and no difficulty in the function of the
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limbs as ordinary wounds invariably do. It must therefore be excluded that the ideology of Padre Pio's lesions is of natural origin. Rather, the producing agent must be sought without fear or error in the supernatural and the phenomenon constitutes in itself
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something not explainable by human science alone. Dr. Luigi Romanella of Barleta. Note the lesions were observed on different days and at different hours without any modification being detected.
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So, you know, he's going in there, he's seeing this different days, different hours. He's doing this multiple times.
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He's he's palpating his hands and he's palpating his feet. He's looking extensively at the at his side. He's noting like a palpable void in between his the hands and the feet. Again, he's like going through this on multiple
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occasions. Is this something you could be easily mistaken about? No. Okay. So, like let's let's start um compiling on the conspiracy. Like it's going to be absurd by by the end. July 1919, Dr. Emo Big Nami, atheist professor of medical
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pathology at the Royal University of Rome, also examined and described legions. He's convinced that in the absence of chemical irritants, St.
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Pete's lesions will heal. At his request, a committee of friars is ordered to ensure that the lesions are kept sealed and untreated for a period of eight days. He departs from the content before this experime is carried out. So his final report omits the
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results. Here are the results. This is a sworn testimony from the friars who carried out his experiment. We the undersigned attest under oath that having received from the most reverend father Petro of Ichitella the order to bandage the wounds of Padre Pio of
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Petrochina Capagan priest we have ascertained the following. First the condition of the wounds during the eight days remained the same except on the final day on which they took on a vivid red color. Second, every day as can be
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verified from the cloths that we preserve. All the wounds produced blood. On the final day, it was more abundant, so much so that we were compelled, while he was celebrating mass to send a cloth in order to dry the blood that was
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flowing over the backs of his hands. It is to be noted that in performing these bandagings, we did not use any medicinal substance, and that although having complete trust in Padre Peio, we nevertheless removed so as to avoid any
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suspicion, even the small bottle of iodine tincture that he kept in his room. After his attempt to cure the lesions was unsuccessful, Dr. Dr.
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Bignnami again an atheist professor of medical pathology eventually conceded that their persistence was inexplicable.
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The testim the testimony there is in Muse's article October 1919 Dr. George Fesa a well-known surgeon in private practice in Rome examines the lesions and describes them as follows. On the palms and on the dorsom of the feet and
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in the anterior region of the left thorax he presents lesions that deserve to be studied in particular. On the palm of the left hand approximately corresponding to the midpoint of the third metacarpal there is a lesion of circular shape with a diameter of
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slightly more than 2 centimeters. This lesion, like all the others observed on him, has a reddish brown coloration and is covered by a blackish escar, the surface of which is furrowed by striations arranged in an almost radiating pattern and which most
48:14
Speaker A
probably results from the drawing of the blood that has flowed from it. The depth of the leion described does not seem very great. Nevertheless, it certainly reaches and also involves the thickness of the subcutaneous tissues since when invited to close his fist, he is unable
48:25
Speaker A
to clench it completely and only with great difficulty can he reach with the tips of his fingers the corresponding theenar and hypoththenar eminences. As I've said, this lesion is circular in shape with contours whose line of demarcation is extremely sharp. So that
48:35
Speaker A
the immediately surrounding skin shows neither edema, so it's not the surrounding skin is not swollen, nor redness, so the surrounding skin is not red, nor infiltration nor any other trace of inflammatory reaction. The underlying metacarpal presents anatomically no discontinuity. It
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Speaker A
appears intact and regular throughout its length. Perhaps a radiographic examination could bring to light alterations that cannot be detected with ordinary means of observation. In the dorsal region, the same left hand, a little closer to the metacarpoangial joint of the third finger, and therefore
48:59
Speaker A
not in the exact correspondence with the palmer leion, there is another lesion analogous to the first in shape and characteristics, but with a more superficial escar and more restricted contours. With the same characteristics, one could describe the lesions present
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Speaker A
on the dorsom and on the palm of the right hand. While I examine them, small drops of blood ooze from their margins.
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Speaker A
In order also to observe the lesions on his feet, I myself help him to remove his stockings, which not soaked with blood tinged sorosity. on the dorsom of both feet and precisely corresponding to the midpoint of the second metatarsal. I
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Speaker A
likewise observe a circular lesion reddish brown in color covered by a thin blackish escar which exactly reproduces the characteristics of those described on the hands. Perhaps these are somewhat smaller and more superficial. Here too the underlying metatarsal appears intact
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Speaker A
throughout its extent. Here too the skin surrounding the lesions shows no trace of infiltration nor of edema nor of inflammatory reaction. Here too there is a slight but continuous oozing of blood tinged serosity on the soles of the feet
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Speaker A
at points that correspond almost exactly to those on the dorsome. Two further lesions are observed in each planter region, sharply defined in their contours and perfectly identical to the preceding ones. Direct pressure applied to all these lesions, both on the hands
49:55
Speaker A
and on the feet, even when exerted gently, proves to be extremely painful and painful as well, though to a proportionately lesser degree, is also the sensation that contact of the fingers, awakens in the healthy tissues surrounding them. Even more intense,
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Speaker A
although he strives to conceal them, are the sufferings caused by the lesions on his feet when walking. Hence, the difficulty he has in remaining on his feet for long periods, and hence his slow and sometimes uncertain gate. In
50:13
Speaker A
the anterior region of the left side of the chest approximately two transverse finger breadths below the memory papila there is a final and more interesting lesion in the form of an inverted cross.
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Speaker A
The longitudinal arm of this measures approximately 7 centimeters in length. It begins at the anterior axillary line at the level of the fifth intercostal space and descends obliquely to near the cartilagynous margin of the ribs furrowing the skin at a point which as
50:32
Speaker A
I've already noted lies about two transverse finger breaths below the memory papa. The transverse arm of the cross is about 4 centimeters long. It intersects not at a right angle but somewhat obliquely and at roughly 5 centimeters from the point of origin of
50:42
Speaker A
the longitudinal arm and it appears broader and more rounded at its inferior extremity. Like these are trained observers, guys. Like you can see how like utterly careful they are in giving their testimonies. This cross-shaped figure is extremely superficial. It
50:54
Speaker A
involves only the epidermis and perhaps the outermost layer of the dermis. The two arms of which it is composed are ribbon-like. Its coloration like that other lesions which presents on his hands and his feet is a reddish brown. A
51:03
Speaker A
thin and brief film covers its central portion. And here too the surrounding tissues offer no traces of redness, infiltration or of edema. However, their painful hypers sensitivity is more intense and more widespread than in the normal tissues bordering the other
51:14
Speaker A
lesions. As regards their origin, it emerges from the data collected that they would have all appeared together about 13 months ago and precisely toward the end of September 1918. Today, after so long a period of time, they preserve
51:24
Speaker A
the same vividness of characteristics that they presented in the first moments of their appearance and which throughout the 13 months they never cease to display. These lesions, except for the formation of the slight escar that covers them and which from time to time
51:33
Speaker A
detaches, falls off and then reproduces itself, have never in 13 months shown even the slightest tendency to secretize or to basically you know to to scar.
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Speaker A
They are certainly not the result of a local disease nor the expression of constitutional infirmities. The reddish brown coloration that they have today is the same as that of the first days in which they appeared. The painful sensitivity that they had at that time
51:49
Speaker A
has in no way diminished and the oozing of blood ting serosity observed by me which recurs at fairly frequent intervals has in no way altered the rhythm with which it manifests itself.
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Speaker A
What pathological product can for so long remain so tenaciously stationary both in the characteristics that distinguish it and in the manifestations it produces? If I had to express my thought regarding the manner in which these lesions were produced, I would
52:06
Speaker A
have to exclude that they were determined by a cutting instrument or by the application of potentially irritating chemical substances. They are not the consequence of a cutting wound because they present none of the characteristics of such lesions. Nor are
52:14
Speaker A
they due to the application of chemical substances because the action of these never remains strictly confined as in our case would have occurred to the injured area but extends beyond its boundaries gradually fading into the surrounding normal tissues with a
52:27
Speaker A
reaction whose exponent is always given by a more or less notable degree of redness, edema, and infiltration. And and of course, you know, as as Dr. Fesa says, that's that wasn't that's not what he observed. In fact, he observed
52:37
Speaker A
exactly the opposite on all of the wounds. And in any case, once the action of the injuring cause has seized, whether it be of chemical nature or not, it is natural that the effects should also seize. It is natural, in other
52:46
Speaker A
words, that from that moment, the vital reaction of nature, even if not aided by the means that the art advises, so should provide on its own account and with its own energies, as we always observe in all lesions for the
52:56
Speaker A
progressive repair of the damage that has occurred. How then is it that the lesions observed in Padre Pio preserve so tenaciously the characteristics and the vividness of the first moment in which they manifested themselves? Apart from the consideration
53:07
Speaker A
that iodine applied every two or three days as Padre Peio did would rather have served to facilitate the the scarring of his lesions, apart also from the reflection that even making use of of a non-reent iodine tincture and perhaps
53:18
Speaker A
containing traces of hydrootic acid if this had been capable of acting as an an irritating element for the lesions themselves, it could not therefore have spared the surrounding normal tissues its abusive action, provoking there a more or less intense inflammatory
53:28
Speaker A
reaction, which in reality is lacking and has always been lacking from Padre Pio. Apart from all this, there stands the fact that Padre Peio for more than 3 months by order of his superiors no longer applies anything at all to his
53:38
Speaker A
lesions. And nevertheless, these always preserve the same identical characteristics. To express with some exactness the impression I received, I should say that they appear rather than as wounds or as you know resulting from chemical irritants. The impression is
53:52
Speaker A
like rather the result of like prolonged contact with like a glowing metallic body. Except that even here the lesion produced by an incandescent metallic body presents in its contours immediately after its application a zone of inflammatory reaction that gradually
54:03
Speaker A
fades into the surrounding normal tissues. Even here once the action that produces it has has seized the natural process of repair begins and progresses always up to the complete scarring of the lesion that was its effect. Whereas those observed on Padre Peio as we have
54:18
Speaker A
already repeatedly noted have contours that are extremely sharp. No sign of reaction is offered by the tissues that surround them and they present no tendency to scar even after so long a time from their appearance and notwithstanding their small extent and
54:29
Speaker A
limited depth. In conclusion, therefore, the lesions that Hadriio presents and the hemorrhage that manifests from them have an origin which our knowledge is far from being able to explain. Dr.
54:36
Speaker A
George Festa. In June 1921, Bishop Rafael Rossy examined St. Pio in a confidential report. He confirms that the stigmata are there. It's impossible to deny it. However, he reports that there are not anatomical lesions. He remarks that there is absolutely no
54:46
Speaker A
breaking or opening up of the tissues on this particular occasion in June 1921. He also remarks that on the interior extremities the sigmata were about to disappear and that in his side the sign is represented by a triangular spot the
54:55
Speaker A
color of red wine not anymore than by a sort of upside down cross such as the one seen by Dr. Bignami and Dr. Fesa. In a sworn deposition he questioned St.
55:02
Speaker A
Pier about the appearance of his lesions. Could your paternity explain to me why there is a difference between the signs he has on his hands and those on his feet which seem synicretized.
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Speaker A
Answer. They don't always keep the same appearance. At times they're more noticeable. At times less so. Sometimes they look like they're about to disappear but they don't and then come back flourishing again. And this happens to all the signs, including the one on
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Speaker A
the side. In October 1925, Dr. Fest and Dr. Mera examined the lesions during a hernia repair surgery. Dr. Fesa reports that I took the opportunity without his awareness to re-examine the wounds which I had first studied 5 years earlier and
55:29
Speaker A
which I now again observe to possess the very same characteristics I described in my earlier report. He also reports that I must add only this, the thin scar beneath which as the previous examination I had found the wound on the
55:37
Speaker A
left side of the chest covered had now fallen away. As a result, the lesion appeared fresh and vividly red, cross-shaped and bordered by it short but clearly visible luminous radiations emanating from its margins. 1925 to 1933. In a monograph published in 1933,
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Speaker A
Dr. professor reports that from 1925 to the present, I have had occasion to return at least 10 or 12 times to the Hermitage on Gargano, having always seen his hands pierced and bleeding during the most solemn moments of the
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Speaker A
celebration of the Holy Mass, having repeatedly discovered in a cell numerous diapers soaked and still damp with the blood that flowed from the wound on his side. Having personally observed very closely, despite the half gloves with which he tries to hide it, the blood
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Speaker A
that drips between the fingers and the wounds on his hands, I am still in a position to affirm that the wounds of the crucifixion are preserved even today, some 20 with the same inexplicable characteristics noted upon my first examination. Now move now
56:19
Speaker A
moving forward to 1954 1955. Dr. Luji Pankaro an internist examined St. Peio for after effects of trachob bronchitis.
56:26
Speaker A
St. Peio reports a marketked reduction in bloody exit from all his lesions. Dr. Pankaro confirms heistasis in the absence of inflammatory processes with respect to the stigmata of the left hand. So Dr. Pankaro is noting that yes he still has the stigmata and there is
56:37
Speaker A
an absence of inflammatory processes. This is two decades later after what he's like continually stabbing himself or continually playing carbolic acid.
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Speaker A
This is two decades later. He's been doing that this whole time and like and they're not like the most disgusting festering wounds you could possibly see and there's no inflammation. Hm. In 19 in 1958 when St. Pio takes off his
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Speaker A
sweater to have it repaired, Father Pelgro observes that the lesion on the side is 6 or 7 centimeters long, 2 or 3 centimeters wide and very deep. In 1967, while assisting St. Pio after a fall, Fatherio observes that the lesion on
57:03
Speaker A
left side is cross-shaped with a vertical arm that is 6 to 7 m 6 to 7 cm long, slightly oblique with its lower part shifted toward the left side and a transverse arm that is much shorter. He also observes that it is rather deep and
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Speaker A
that its margins are well- definfined and without crusts. Between 1965 and 1968, St. Pio asks Father Martelino to help him change his socks. As he removes the sock, he observes that the upper sides of the feet do not show any sign
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Speaker A
of a wound. In February 1968, St. Pio collapses while cleaning his lesions. Father Allesio responds to his call for help. This gives him quote the opportunity to see the lesions and verify their reality. After removing the small bloody incrustations that had
57:33
Speaker A
detached from the top of St. Pio's hands, he observed that the wounds at the center of the upper parts of the hands were about 1 cm deep. Within the lesions, he observes partially clotted blood which he carefully and delicately
57:44
Speaker A
removes. However, he does not endeavor to remove all the coagulated blood from the lesions because he notices that every movement causes spasm and pain. In September 1968, Father Carmelo Donado, superior of the comet, Sanjiovani Ratundo from 1964 to 1969 documents the
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Speaker A
resolution of the lesions. During the 5 years that I remained with Padre Pio, can I say that I saw his stigmata? I answer without hesitation. Yes. I must, however, specify that it was not at all easy to see them, even for me as a
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Speaker A
superior and for the conifer who lived with him. This was because he always wore stockings on his feet and half gloves on his hands and his gloves made in such a way as to cover the palms, the back and the half of the fingers. He
58:13
Speaker A
removed these gloves only during the celebration of the holy mass. To ask to see them to ask to see them deliberately would have been an undeelicate and highly unpleasant gesture both because I had no motive or authorization to do so
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Speaker A
and because then the phenomenon of stigization was you know an established fact discussed examined and admitted by everyone at least as regards the existence of the wounds you know always leaving of course to the church the definitive judgment concerning their
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Speaker A
nature and origin. It was commonly reasoned that over the course of 50 years, a wound, especially one neither treated nor medicated, either heals or becomes gangness. The stigmata, therefore, were in my time already a fact beyond dispute. And for this
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Speaker A
reason, even the superior, had no reason to go and verify what belonged to common knowledge. About a month before Padre Pio's death, which occurred on September 23rd, 1968, I heard circulating among the people the first rumors claiming that Padre Peio's wounds were beginning
58:51
Speaker A
to disappear in so far as the hands during the celebration of mass, no longer appeared as wounded and covered with crust as before. I did not give much importance to this, nor did I concern myself with verifying personally
59:00
Speaker A
whether it was true. I did, however, notice that when I touched or kissed Padre Po's hand, I had I no longer felt the crust of blood on either the back or the palm beneath the gloves. On the night of 23rd September 1968,
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Speaker A
immediately after Padre Po's death, aware that it was necessary to leave an official and authoritative testimony, I deliberately wished, together with other witnesses, to observe the stigmata at closer range, I had to ascertain that the hands no longer appeared as I had
59:18
Speaker A
seen them previously, rather the wounds on the of the hands, the feet, and the side were completely closed over without leaving any sign or trace of a scar. One may observe the photographs that were taken the same night and which are
59:27
Speaker A
attached as documentation to this testimony. Present with me were Father Raphael of sent and you know he gives like the bunch of different people who were who had been summoned to take the photographs for documentation. This new fact truly presents mysterious aspects
59:38
Speaker A
both because of the disappearance of the stigmata and because of the absence of any trace of scarring. Nevertheless, it is beyond doubt that Kajio did in fact have the stigmata as everyone was able to see and as thousands of photographs
59:46
Speaker A
can demonstrate. On the night of 23rd September 1968, in the course of performing the customary pious rights according to the deceased, a small white film detached itself from Padre Peio's left hand. the final residue of all the bloodshed and of the muscular tissues
59:57
Speaker A
that for 50 years had been consumed and destroyed. A similar white film but much larger had fallen from the hands in the sacry on the morning of the previous day 23rd September 1968 at the moment when Padre Pio removed the half gloves prior
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Speaker A
to the celebration of the holy mass. Both were preserved in the archives of Sanjiovani Ratonto. It is necessary here to clarify that it is not accurate to say or think that Padre Pio no longer had the stigmata for two or three months
60:15
Speaker A
prior to his death. Rather, two or three months before dying, the wounds slowly began to close and to reduce the outflow of blood until they appeared at death completely healed over and without any scar. Proof of this is the fact that
60:24
Speaker A
precisely at the final moment, the last small crust detached from the left hand. In a photograph of Padre Pio's final mass taken on the morning of 22nd of September, 1968, and attached to this deposition, one can see on the left hand
60:34
Speaker A
the red of the crust in place of the wound, while the back of the right hand is completely white. Padreio therefore continued to wear gloves up to the moment of his death, not in order to deceive, but as always to cover the
60:43
Speaker A
wounds. In any case, during Holy Mass, he always removed the gloves and showed his hands uncovered. The mass was the time when he could most easily be observed by everyone. And so much so that various spiritual sons precisely
60:51
Speaker A
during mass were able to verify the phenomenon and even take photographs. With regard to the absence of any scar where the wounds have been, medical science will have to pronounce itself on this fact which is phys physiologically inexplicable since every deep wound
61:02
Speaker A
always leaves the mark of a scar. So already, you know, we got like a photograph of his final mass on the morning of 22nd of September 1968. The the back of his right hand is completely white. We have photographs on the day of
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Speaker A
his death, which we'll get to momentarily. We have like a sworn deposition from like five or six witnesses that yes, I saw him there at his death. No. No scars, no signs of any wounds ever. Oh, and what? Like again,
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Speaker A
this guy had been like carving wounds into his hands and his feet and his side for five decades. It's physiologically inexplicable. Examining these and many other pieces of evidence leaves no room for naturalistic explanation. First, localization. The spatial distribution
61:34
Speaker A
of St. Pio's lesions corresponded to the five holy wounds of Christ. Morph lesions on the hands and feet were perfectly symmetrical, conforming to bilateral symmetry with respect to the left and right extremities, as well as toroposterior symmetry with respect to
61:43
Speaker A
the front and back of each extremity. All of the many doctors that examined the lesions, including Dr. Nami agreed that symmetrical localization could not be explained by natural pathology. No unconscious involuntary mechanism has a spatial resolution to account for it.
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Speaker A
About the depth, Father Benedto described that the lesions on the extremities as full thickness perforations. He told Dr. Festo that it would have been easy to discern in their details a written text or an object through them. Dr. Romanelli later
62:05
Speaker A
couldn't see through the lesions because they were covered by thin membranes during his visit. But palpation given the gave him the exact perception of a void with respect to the lesions on both sides of each extremity. By the time Dr.
62:15
Speaker A
Dr. Bignami visited which was again later the lesions appeared superficial during Dr. Fesa's joint examination with Dr. Romanelli. However, the absence of escars allowed them to confirm that the lesions on both sides of both feet were true and proper continuous lesions
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Speaker A
extending in depth and produced as though by a pointed instrument. Chronicity. Father Carmelo noted that it was commonly reasoned over the course of 50 years that a wound especially when neither treated nor medicated either heals or deteriorates. The stigma
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Speaker A
therefore were in my time already a fact beyond dispute. This echoed the opinion of all the doctors that examined the lesions decades earlier. Inflammation Dr. Romanelli, Dr. Bignami and Dr. Fesa all agreed that the immediately surrounding skin shows neither edema nor
62:48
Speaker A
redness nor infiltration nor any other sign of inflammatory reaction. Dr. Fesa confirmed these observations with a good magnifying lens. Decades later, both Dr.
62:56
Speaker A
Pankaro and Dr. Salah noted that there was no sign of localized inflammation around the lesions on the hands.
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Speaker A
Inflammation though is an obligatory immune response to tissue injury that persists until integrity is restored.
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Speaker A
Physiologically inexplicable healing. In the final months of St. Pio's life, the lesions on the hands began to close, culminating in their complete disappearance at death. Multiple witnesses, including Dr. Jeppiid solo as well as photographs confirm that they healed without any trace of scarring
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Speaker A
that is physiologically incompatible with the depth of the lesions. Once a lesion extends beneath the epidermis into the dermis and subcutaneous tissue, scarring is unavoidable. Deep tissue injuries heal by fibrosis, not true regeneration. Moreover, if the lesions were natural or artificial, it would be
63:30
Speaker A
a remarkable coincidence that their terminal resolution after five decades of persistence was synchronized exactly with St. Peio's death. Father Pelruno reported that while Padraio was celebrating his final mass, two scales fell from his hands while Dr. SA and I
63:43
Speaker A
were preparing his lifeless body. The last scale fell from his left hand. Father Carmelo reported that precisely at the final moment, the last small crust detached from the left hand. Here are the pictures in the sworn deposition of you know feet back bottom of his
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Speaker A
feet, palms, back of his hand, etc. Okay, so that's the stigmata. Now on to blood loss. All the lesions continuously exuded blood for 50 years. That is confirmed by the testimony of hordes of witnesses concerning direct observations of the flow of bloody exidate, the
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Speaker A
soaking of bandages and garments. So again, that's confirmed by the testimony of hordes of witnesses with direct observation of the flow of bloody exodate, the soaking of bandages and garments, and the renewal of escars throughout that entire period. While it
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Speaker A
is not possible to estimate the typical rate of blood loss with precision, the equivalent of 100 milliliters a day of whole blood is a conservative lower bound. St. Peio never developed anemia, though, hematological tests confirmed that St. Peio had completely normal
64:26
Speaker A
blood components. Maintaining a significant iron deficit for decades without developing iron deficiency anemia is not physiologically possible.
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Speaker A
Dr. Dr. Fesa pointed out that if the lesions he presents on his person have not healed in such a long time, they should give rise not to continuous and abundant hemorrhages like those still observed in him, but at most is
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Speaker A
secretions of a pathological nature. By what privilege of nature is there no trace of such secretions on his wounds, while instead a pure, fresh, shining perfumed blood continues to ooze from them as in the first moment they appeared. Evidently, no hypothesis would
64:52
Speaker A
be possible to arrive at a natural interpretation of the events. As Ethan notes with respect to the conservative estimate of 100 milliliters a day, the dimensions of the lesions, the frequency of the exedation, the qualitative descriptions of abundant eusions and
65:01
Speaker A
saturation of fabrics are not consistent with trivial seepage. Moreover, peak losses would have been significantly greater. You know, during the final decade of his life when intensity was at its lowest, Father Pelro witnessed half a liter of semi-lotted blood pour into a
65:12
Speaker A
jar all at once. With respect to nutrition, whole blood contains approximately.5 milligs per milliliter of iron. That implies that St. Peio would have lost about 50 milligs of iron for every 100 milliliters of blood loss.
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Speaker A
If a person consumes an iron rich diet, they can absorb up to 6 milligrams per day without supplements. St. Peio's diet consisted of a bit of vegetables. He ate so little that Bishop Rossi posed the question, how can it be explained so
65:33
Speaker A
much work with so little nourishment? St. Pio's diet wouldn't have even allowed him to absorb the 1 milligram per day required to maintain iron balance without the loss of any blood.
65:40
Speaker A
Health St. Peio never developed anemia. Hematological tests confirm that maintaining a significant iron deficit for decades without developing iron deficiency anemia is is not physiologically possible. The body stores about 1 gram of iron that it can use to buffer deficits. Once that
65:52
Speaker A
reserve is depleted, iron deficiency anemia is guaranteed unless iron balance is restored. In fact, it is not even physiologically possible to survive a deficit that exceeds 5 milligs per day for more than a few months. You might suggest that he was just like
66:01
Speaker A
surreptitiously procuring and consuming iron supplements, but no, multiple lines of reasoning preclude that. First, it would not have been feasible for St.
66:07
Speaker A
Peio to sustain iron absorption in excess of 50 milligrams per day through oral roots. The human gut caps reliable daily uptake from oral iron at significantly less than that. Even if he somehow managed to absorb 50 milligs per
66:18
Speaker A
day for decades, that would only compensate for typical losses. So the iron deficits suffered during peak losses would have accumulated. Moreover, ingesting the doses of element elemental iron that would have been required would have led to severe gastrointestinal
66:29
Speaker A
problems that were not observed. Moreover, St. Peio would not have been able to maintain iron balance through oral supplementation without constant laboratory monitoring since he wouldn't have been able to accurately estimate the amount of iron that he was losing
66:38
Speaker A
nor the amount he was absorbing. If replacement doses were too small, iron stores would have gradually depleted and you know, he would have gotten anemia.
66:44
Speaker A
If replacement doses were too large, excess iron would have accumulated and iron overload would have developed eventually culminating in multiple organ failure.
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Speaker A
Third, even if St. Pio maintained iron balance, losing more than 100 milliliters of blood every day for decades should have led to complications besides iron deficiency anemia, including circulatory, hematopoetic, and metabolic stress. Those would have manifested as severe and persistent
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Speaker A
fatigue, shortness of breath, hyperventilation, rapid and irregular heartbeat, a compromised immune system, and other symptoms that would have been obvious. They also wouldn't have been missed by the doctors that carefully studied all of his organ systems. We've gone over the stigmata, the blood loss.
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Speaker A
Now, let's go to the odor of sanctity. Any adequate theory of St. Pio stigmata has to explain the pleasant fragrance that emanated from the lesions and the blood that exuded from them. First odor.
67:22
Speaker A
Chronic lesions in blood inevitably inevitably develop a foul odor. St. Pio's lesions and blood never became malodorous even when no fragrance was present. However, innumerable testimonies confirmed that a fine delicate scent frequently emanated from the lesions and especially the blood
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Speaker A
that exuded from them. The scent was likened to a mixture of violets, roses, and liies. Dr. Romanelli consulted several scientists inquiring as to whether blood could under any circumstances have a sweet odor. They told him this was impossible. The
67:45
Speaker A
strength, the fragrance that emanated from St. Pio's lesions and blood demonstrated an exceptionally strong power of penetration of smells and places. Many witnesses reported that entire rooms were inundated with strong perfume. It was sometimes perceived as great distance from Padre Pio. Fodestino
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Speaker A
reported that it was so intense that I was about to faint. Father Clemente reported it was so intense that I was almost overcome. Father Romelo reported that it was so intense that it was impossible to be in his room.
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Speaker A
Intermittency. The fragrance was sometimes sense, sometimes not, and came as if in waves. This was not only true of his person, but also of his blood, bandages, garments, and other items that came into contact with him. It was
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Speaker A
sometimes perceived when St. Pierre was mentioned but not present. For example, Dr. Ammanzio Duodo reported that he was talking with friends, one of whom was describing a visit to Sanjiovani when suddenly and unexpectedly an intense perfume of violets enveloped us all. It
68:25
Speaker A
lasted about half an hour. Dr. Eduardo Biano was also present and corroborated Duo's account of the event. Persistence, items that came into contact with St.
68:31
Speaker A
Pio retained his characteristic scent for extremely long periods of time. Father Lovico reported that St. Pio's handkerchief was for 20 days in my suitcase. After such a long time, it still had to end in all its intensity.
68:40
Speaker A
In the small drawer of the nightstand in my cell, there was a bandage from St.
68:42
Speaker A
Po's side. This small drawer has been in my cell for a year now, and every time I open it, I notice Padre Pio's scent.
68:47
Speaker A
Bishop Rossi reported that the bandages with the blood that flowed out of Padre Pio's wounds, his zucchinity.
68:56
Speaker A
The fragrance was often perceived simultaneously by everyone in close proximity, but sometimes it was perceived by some, but not others. For example, Bishop Rossi related that it happened to Father Lorenzo, the superior, while the others with him didn't sense it. It was to be noted that
69:06
Speaker A
Father Lorenzo was a very serious priest, and at the beginning skeptical about what was said of Padre Peio.
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Speaker A
Father Lovico testified in his room. It is constant. Meanwhile, Father Pro testified, "I didn't smell it in his room, but in the vegetable garden, yes, St. Pio said that he never smelled the fragrance." You might think that like
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Speaker A
suggestion accommodates this, but no, suggestion can't accommodate the uniform experience of massive numbers of independent witnesses that perceive the fragrance repeatedly and in diverse circumstances. Bernard Rufin wrote, "Without exception, those I interviewed who spent any time at all with Padre Pio
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Speaker A
experienced the aroma at some time or other." Bishop Rossi wrote, "This very intense and present fragrance similar to the scent of violet is attested by everyone. Most eminent fathers, let me attest to it, too." Father Alberto Diapo wrote, "The reality is that hundreds of
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thousands of individuals, even unbelievers, have testified and continued to testify that they suddenly and inexplicably perceived the perfume of Padre Peio. Nor can it accommodate the testimony of witnesses that were ignorant or skeptical of the phenomena when they first experienced it." Dr.
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Romanelli examined St. St. Pio for the first time. He smelled the fragrance, but assumed that it was perfume. In fact, he remarked that he thought that it was unsuitable for a fire to use perfume. In a letter to Father uh Pro,
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he pointed out that this was not a suggestion on my part. First because no one had ever spoken to me about such a phenomenon and then because if I had been influenced by suggestion I would have noticed that odor constantly. Dr.
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Fesa was entirely devoid of sense of smell. He wrote during my first visit I removed a blood soaked cloth from his side which I took with me for microscopic examination. Dr. Fesa was devoid of a sense of smell. However, a
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distinguished officer and other people who were in my car on the way back from Sanjiovani although unaware that I was carrying the cloth in a case despite the intense wind caused by the movement of the vehicle clearly detected its
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fragrance and assured me that it corresponded precisely to the perfume emanating from Padre Pio. Once in Rome, in the following days and for a long period of time, the same diaper kept in a piece of furniture in my study
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perfumed the room so well that many of the people who came to consult me spontaneously asked where it came from.
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Bishop Rossi was skeptical until he smelled the fragrance. You he gives his he gives his testimony here. Father Augustina was also skeptical until he smelled the fragrance. Robert Hawk, a Lutheran seminarian, never met St. Peio and perceived the fragrance for the
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first time after St. Peio's death. Even after St. Pio's death, the aroma has continued to manifest itself. Robert H.
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Hopkkey of North Planefield, New Jersey, is a Lutheran seminarian who has never met Padre Pio. Hopkins was in Philadelphia in mid-september 1978 visiting his friend Vincent Mandato prior to leaving for a year study in Florence. Mandato was devoted to Padre
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Pio. On Sunday morning, the two young men went to mass at a Catholic church near the University of Pennsylvania campus. In a letter to me dated June 30th, 1980, Hopky recounts at mass just before the homaly. I remembered smelling
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very distinctly the odor of roses. I didn't think much of it, and it seemed to go away only to come back again just as sweet and just as strong during the creed. At that time, I recall looking around to see who the woman was nearby
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who had dowsed herself with so much scent. But there was no woman near us. I tried to locate a flower arrangement in the church that could be giving off such a perfume. But again, there there was no arrangement nearby and no roses in the
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church at all. I thought perhaps it could be, you know, the scented candles, but the strength of odor was such the far away candles would have had to fill the church with their scent. And surely I would have smelled such a powerful
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fragrance immediately upon entering the church and not halfway through the mass. The odor seemed to fade again and came back for the third and final time during the consecration of the host. It faded again. I thought the experience a little
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odd, but promptly put it out of my mind. That is until my friend Vince asked me after mass, "Did you smell something strange in church today?" I said that I had and he told me to ask his father
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when I returned home what the fragrance could have been. Intrigued by the whole affair, I hurried over to Mandado's house as soon as I arrived home. The senior mandate had been very close to Padraio in his native Italy when he was
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young. Aki said nothing more than, "You know, today while Vince and I were in the church this morning, we both smelled something very strange in the air. He finished the description for me. It was very sweet and very strong, like the
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scent of roses, a garden of roses in decline, and it came and went a number of times, three or four times." "Why, yes," I answered, surprised at the accuracy. and it came right before the homaly during the creed and during the
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consecration of the host. Mrs. Mandado jumped off her chair and kissed me the spirit of Padri Pio was with you invention today in the church. Hopky concludes not having known Padre Pio personally as have the Mandadoos and having I like to think a very rational
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logical mind I neither totally believe nor disbelieve the stories of Padre Pio. The sheer volume of them tends to make me believe that something indeed miraculous took place in the presence of of this obviously holy devout Capachin.
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However, the far-fetched character of many of these tales reactivates a skeptic within me. Nevertheless, I cannot deny what I smelled that day in church. And I cannot deny that before I even spoke of what I had smelled, Mr.
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Mandado had described it perfectly. So, so the suggestion just doesn't explain the overwhelming testimonial evidence and specifically the character and kinds of testimony and the people from whom we're talking about. Nor is it remotely possible that the fragrance is
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artificial perfume. St. Pio had neither the means nor the opportunity to procure and conceal massive amounts of floral perfume to simulate the order of sanctity. He's like acquiring hundreds of liters of unique high quality exceptionally long-lasting perfume that
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lasts for like sometimes years on end like fills rooms and and how did he mask the mal odor of his lesions and blood when no pleasant fragrance was detected in their vicinity? Second, artificial perfume would have been perceived
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continuously not intermittently. However, the fragrance often began and seized while St. Pia was being observed by large crowds. Bishop Rossi pointed out that if he really for whatever reason used the fragrance on himself that the scent should be sensed more or
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less at all times. Third, the blood that exuded from St. Pio's lesions was scented. On many occasions, the fragrance was perceived immediately when freshly soaked cloths, bandages, or garments were removed. In such circumstances, St. Pio would not have
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had any time to covertly apply perfume to the blood. And even if he somehow had applied perfume to the bloody exit and blood soaked objects, the fragrance would not have behaved as witnesses described. Perfume applied to fresh blood would have deteriorated very
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quickly. Yet, the fragrance persisted for durations that would be extraordinary for perfume applied to any medium. Artificial perfume can't accommodate selectivity, nor can it accommodate perception of the fragrance.
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In association with St. IO while he was like hundreds of miles away or even dead. And Ethan just like mentions a bunch more testimonies to that effect.
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Turning now to the fever. St. Peio suffered from bouts of extreme hypothermia that he attributed to a moral rather than physical illness. On one occasion, his body temperature reached 52° C or 125.6 degrees Fahrenheit, the highest value ever
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recorded. On another occasion, his body temperature reached 50° 50° C, 122 degrees Fahrenheit, the second highest value ever recorded. On several occasions, his body temperature reached 48° C or 118.4 degrees Frenheit, the third highest value ever recorded. On
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many occasions, his body temperature reached 47°, 46°, and 45°. During these fevers, St. Peio could get up, move about, and do everything. They always subsided without aggressive medical interventions. Independent convergent testimony from priests and doctors confirmed repeated measurements of St.
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Po's extraordinary and unprecedented body temperatures. A memoir, Father Palino of Kasakalinda reported that while he was the guardian of St. Pio's combat, he measured an axillary temperature of 52 degrees. On January 17th, 1917, Padre Pio took to bed sick.
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My first thought before calling the doctor was to take his temperature. But what was my surprise when upon taking the thermometer out, the mercury, which had reached 42.5 degrees, the highest point of the common thermometer had built up pressure, not yet being able to
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rise, and had broken the container in which it contained. I still keep this special thermometer, which I've never wanted to give to anyone, and this is the most authentic proof of what I say.
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The mercury is still at the top of the column, just as it was returned to me by the Padre after he had measured the degree of the fever. Meanwhile, curious to know what degree the father's fever was, I took a bath thermometer that I
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had in my room, and after freeing it from the wooden case, I went to the sick man's bed to measure his temperature again. My amazement increased tremendously when I saw the column the mercury had reached 52 degrees. 52. I
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immediately looked at the sick man with great concern. Both that broken thermometer and the bath thermometer that Father Paulino referenced are currently stored in the Padre Pio archives in Saniovani Ratundo. In an interview with the Belgian newspaper, Dr. Angelo Mera, remember an atheist and
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Dr. Jiva reported that they measured axillary temperatures of 50° and 48 degrees. On October 27th the same year 1923 the readers of the Belgian newspaper Lewis discovered the existence of fry who has very high fevers 48 degrees and 50 degrees which lasted for
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four or five days and it made the thermometers jump before the eyes of the astonished doctors. The author of this long article Italian correspondent Nino Salvaneshi did not write based on hearsay but only after having gone personally the Sanjiovani Ronoto and he
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certifies doctors Mera and Giova whom I have questioned in detail were the first to visit Padripio both possessed bath thermometers that stopped at 48° and 50° C. In an interview with an Italian newspaper correspondent, Frappuccino confirmed that he measured an axillary
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temperature of 48 degrees. In a sworn deposition, Father Lenzo of San Marco reported that while he was the guardian of St. Patrickio's combat, he measured axelary temperatures of 48° and 45°.
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Before I came, there was much talk about him, that he ran fevers of over 118 degrees, that he had received a stigmata that he could read people's hearts. To tell the truth, I didn't put much trust in these tales so much that being a
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military chaplain and having obtained a leave to go back to my hometown, I refused to come. It was also said, as I have already stated, that he had such high fevers, but even as a superior, I was skeptical. Once when Propio had a
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fever, I wanted to use a thermometer. Pajio advised me not to for it would break. I yielded, but a second time I absolutely wanted to try and the thermometer went up to 109.6 degrees Frenheit. That is up to the last mark,
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but it didn't break. A third time, a thermometer that would read up to 113 was used, and the mercury went up to 113, but it did not break. There were Dr. D. Frank, Anthony Oena, and Dr.
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Angelo Mera, the house doctor, a socialist. Another time, I myself wanted to measure the temperature with a thermometer brought by Dr. Festo of Rome, one that would read up to 32 degrees Frenheite, and it went up to 118.4°.
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He too came to believe what was said. Despite being skeptical, Father Agnosio of Chelsea corroborated Father Renzo's ter testimony. A 48°ree fever was observed and he was not knocked down. He gets up, moves about, could do everything. St. Peio confirmed these
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fevers in sworn depositions. Dr. Festa in his monograph verified with complete certainty that there had been numerous measurements of accelerated temperatures as high as 48.5 degrees CC. Called into military service during the war and assigned as part of the medical staff to
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ward in the main Trinity Hospital in Naples, it was quickly understood that it would be more useful to study him carefully than to use his labor in caring for the sick in order to restore him as much as possible to a normal
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physiological condition. An attempt was therefore made to begin a clitical study on him by thotically measuring his temperatures. But this had to be abandoned quickly because whenever a thermometer was applied to him, the mercury column would rise with such
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rapidity and force in the glass tube that it immediately burst. After repeating the attempt several times with the same result, the matter was dropped and arrangements were made for his permanent discharge. After being received following his military discharge into the comedogia, and as the
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superiors thought he continued to appear always unwell, attempts were also made there to measure his temperature with identical results to those observed in the hospital Naples. Examined then by a physician of that city using a bath thermometer, it registered within a few
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moments at a temperature of 48°. I later learned that the phenomenon had been repeated many times in the comment of Saniovani Roondo. In a memoir, Father Alberto Dapalito reported that while he was working with St. Peio at a boarding
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school, he routinely measured axillary temperatures at 47° and 46°. In a sworn deposition, Father Ezichia Cordone reported that when he attempted to measure St. Pio's axillary temperature, the thermometer broke due to excessive heat. In 1967, Dr. Jobia donated the
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broken thermometer to the convent is currently stored in the Pajipio archives in Sanjiovani Rotando. There is no chance that fevers such high are naturalistically explicable. The Guinness World Record for highest body temperature is credited to a heat stroke
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victim that survived a 46.5° C fever. EMTs found Willie Jones in a deep coma.
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When Jones arrived to the hospital, he was wrapped in wet sheeting which was kept cool by continually replacing bags of ice. It took approximately 2 hours of therapy for his to return to a safe level. In subsequent weeks, he received
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aggressive care for multiple organ system failure, generalized seizures, and profound atexia. Contrast this with the case of St. Peio. He did not have the benefit of intensive cooling. He retained consciousness and he was ambulatory. He was never treated for
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squle. So like attendant complications ideology. Jones's temperature reached an extreme value because he spent all day cooking over a hot stove in a poorly ventilated apartment during a heat wave.
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St. Peio's body temperature reached extreme values in normal environments. It is not possible to reach temperatures in excess of 47° C through indogenous heat production under ordinary conditions. When temperatures reach 45 degrees, the organels that generate heat deteriorate while heat loss continues to
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accelerate. Further approaching the ceiling would presuppose a metabolic storm so intense it would trigger cardopulinary collapse within minutes.
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Duration. Jones's temperature was measured after 25 minutes of intensive cooling. St. St. Pier remained near his maximum temperature for days. Lucidity.
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Jones went into a coma. St. Pio wasn't even delirious. Consciousness is one of the most thermal labile processes. It's like super sensitive to temperature in the entire body since it depends on the precise synchronization of electrochemical signals and continuous
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supply of large amounts of energy. Even at a body temperature as low as 40.5° C, disturbances are inevitable. When temperatures rise above 42°, the electrical activity of the brain collapses. When temperatures rise above 44 degrees, the electrical activity of
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the brain disappears entirely. Lucid consciousness at body temperatures in excess of 45 degrees CC is beyond the envelope of natural physiology. And again, St. Padre Pio had no squ associated with it. But Jones had like all of those. Was it a hoax? No, it was
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not. If St. Pio's extraordinary fevers were fraudulent, then unless there were a series of baffling conspiracies that implicated many and various clergymen and physicians over a span of decades, he would have to repeatedly and reliably manipulate axillary temperature readings
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while under close supervision in diverse circumstances. Okay. Instrument tampering. St. O did not have the opportunity to tamper with the instruments that were used to take his temperature. On many occasions, several thermometers were used in series precisely because early thermometers had
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reached their maximum scale or cracked and were supplied ad hoc by physicians or superiors. Moreover, tampering is not a plausible explanation for the observed behavior of the instruments. No feasible modification to a sealed thermometer would have caused the mercury inside to
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remain quent until axillary contact and then expand beyond the limits implied by the temperature of the bulb. Artificial heating. Nor is it plausible that the extraordinary core temperatures were simulated by artificially heating the axilla. To keep the skin bulb interface
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near 48 degrees C for an extended period without continuous heating, St. Pia would have had to heat a substantial depth the tissue so that it functioned as a thermal reservoir. But heating deeply to that level would have caused
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severe burns that would have been conspicuous excruciating and long-lasting. The only alternative, concealing a heat source near the skin bulb interface during measurements, is likewise untenable. Any heat source powerful enough to sustain 48° C readings would have been impossible to
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hide and would have caused notable disturbances. Oh my gosh. This is insane. I mean, fraud, I think, is the only option here.
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And it's just it seems ludicrous at this point to go with the front, you know, just all this all this is just a massive fraud. You decided to sprinkle that on top of the stigmata, right?
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And to do it like 20 times. Yes. Let's go on to healing miracles associated with Padre Pio. Now, as Ethan points out, like it's important to remember the broader context when assessing the possibility of skeptical explanations. Multiplying one in a
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million coincidences is not a sustainable approach to dealing with this body of evidence. Keep that in mind. Keep that in mind going through all the miraculous evidence.
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First up is Giovanni Ceino. Giovanni Ceino's right eye was regenerated through the intercession of St. St.
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Padre Pio. Condition. On February 15th, 1949, Giovanni Seino, a construction worker, was involved in a workplace accident at the convent. He placed a charge of dynamite that failed to go off for several minutes. So, he went over to
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examine it. It detonated. Father Raphaeli, Dr. Sanguinetti, and Father Meer were at his side within minutes.
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All three noted that Savino's face was horribly disfigured and that his right eye was gone entirely. He was rushed to a nearby hospital. The doctors confirmed that his quote right eye had been completely annihilated and the left one
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was so damaged that there was little likelihood of his ever seeing out of it again. The cure. On February 25th, so that's 10 days later, Savino's face was unbanished for the first time since he was admitted to the hospital. Doctors
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were shocked to discover, quote, "His shattered face was completely healed and covered with new skin," unquote. They were even more shocked to discover that Savino had a right eye as well as a left eye. For the rest of his life, Savino
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was blind in his left eye, the one that had been damaged but not lost in the explosion. He maintained good vision, however, in the right eye, which which had apparently materialized after its predecessor had been emulsified. All of
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the doctors, acquainted with the facts of the case, agreed that it was inexplicable. Context: On the morning of February 12th, St. Pio predicted that Savino was going to be the victim of a near fatal accident by exclaiming, "Courage, I'll pray to the Lord that it
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has not cause her death." On February 18th, while Savina was recovering in the hospital, he mentally spoke to St. Pio, and then smelled his characteristic scent. He told a surgeon that St. Pio had just paid him a visit. On February
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25th, he felt someone slap him on the right side of his face and then smelled St. Pio's characteristic scent. Later that day when an atheist opthalmologist realized Savino's eye had regenerated he immediately converted is a Smith father Joseph Pius Martin was not credulous
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about miracles attributed to St. Po for instance after looking at the restoration of the sight of someone of the most famous miracles attributed to St. Pio he arrived at the conclusion that the case was naturalistically explicable. When father Joseph Pius was
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asked which miracle tributed to Pipio was most striking he researched the question extensively in 1981 and determined that it was Savinos. Sino had passed away by the time that father Joseph Pas set out to research the question but his account of the event
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had been taken down by father John Chug in 1974. Additionally his widow various members of his family and a number of people who examined him after the accident were still alive. After conducting numerous interviews and reviewing contemporaneous documents, he
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confirmed that Savino's right eye had been totally merated and that every doctor connected with the case was positive that there was no way, according to even the most liberal interpretation of the laws of nature, that an eye so completely destroyed
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could regenerate itself. Father Dominic Meyer, who was himself an eyewitness to the masseration of Savino's eye, wrote a circular letter that described the miracle within a month of Savino's hospitalization. Father Raphael is reported to have said that the right eye
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is gone entirely, the socket is simply empty. In the aftermath of the explosion, Dr. Sanguinetti is reported to have told Savino's wife, "Your husband's eyes are both destroyed." Ethan then goes to the miracle for the beatatification of St. Pio of Consilia
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de Martino whose thoracic duct in her neck had ruptured with a huge lump containing about half a gallon of lymphatic fluid had formed. A surgical intervention was scheduled very shortly thereafter only by like a day or two. On
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the day that intervention was scheduled during a checkup before surgery, the doctors were amazed that there was no more lump. The lymphatic fluid had all been absorbed. Chest X-ray and a total body CT scan were performed everything was normal. A diosis and investigation
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spent about a year collecting testimony medical records. In September 1997, the dasis and tribunal accepted the inexplicability of the care. The documentation they had collected was then sent to a panel of medical experts that unanimously agreed that the cure
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was extraordinary and scientifically inexplicable. And context from the beginning of her hospitalization until her cure, De Martino and her family incessantly prayed for the intercession of St. Pio. They called uh Fire Modestino and asked him to pray for St.
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Pio on on her behalf. On November 2nd, when she learned surgery was necessary, she asked St. Pio to be her surgeon. Far Modestino told her husband, telling her not to have the fluid syringed because there is no need put close to her. Later
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that day, De Martino felt the presence of someone who made a cut at the level of the clavicle, then stitched it up with sutures. She reported that this was accompanied by a clear sensation of sweetness filling my soul while the
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swelling began to disappear. Ethan goes through why it's extremely unlikely that this is natural naturally explainable.
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Uh rules out that was out the misdiagnosis hypothesis and then he goes through the miracle for the canonization of St. Pio, which was the healing of Matteo Pio Kella. It was a healing of multiple organ failure. I think it was
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actually yeah nine organs. His immediate his immediate and rapid improvement happened after his mom asked Padra Pio's intercession. Mateo himself had an out-of- body experience. During the experience, he saw an old man with a white beard and a long brown dress who
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gave him his right hand and said, "Mate, don't worry. You'll be better soon." And when Maria Lucia showed him an image of St. Pio, he exclaimed, "It's him. It's him, mom. It was Prepio." Ethan goes through why it's extremely unlikely that
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the recovery was natural. Survivors of multiple organ failure syndrome with involvement of as few as three organs always have a very, very, very slow recovery. Yet, within days of Matteo's coma being suspended, he was alert and conscious. He had no motor deficits. He
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urinated spontaneously without a bladder catheter and even starting make sort of making fun of hospital staff and challenging them to play video games. So not only did Matteo completely recover from a condition that was far more severe than the most severe that any
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other patient has ever recovered from, he did so almost instantaneously. Whereas patients with far less severe conditions require months of conolescence to achieve far less dramatic improvements. So again like you can multiply unprecedented coincidence by unprecedented coincidence by
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unprecedented coincidence, but the more you do that, the more probabilistic hits you're going to take. Turning now to St.
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Pio's heroic virtue. St. Pio demonstrated he truly heroic virtue throughout his life. He entered the capin order as a teenager. He remained a captain fire until his death. He strictly adhered to capagen aesthetic practices. He incessantly prayed. He
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spent 10 to 15 hours listening to confessions every day for decades. He was reticent to discuss his spiritual charisms and went to great lengths to conceal his stigmata whenever he could.
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Bishop Rosi wrote that he he lives in the utmost simplicity and indifference as if nothing had ever occurred around his person. Despite the fact that St.
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Pio endured incredibly enormous suffering, he bore it without complaining. When St. was unjustly persecuted by the holy office. He quietly submitted to disciplinary means that completely isolated him from the world and destroyed his reputation. Dr.
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Franchesco Ricardi defamed and ridiculed St. Peio for years, but St. Pio never uttered a word of blame against the cruel man. When Dr. Ricardi came down with a serious illness and asked for St.
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Peio, St. Peio traveled to him, embraced him, and then heard his confession. Nor is it remotely possible that St. Peio was a fraud or insane. If the prodigious phenomena attributed to St. O were fraudulent, then he was a pathological
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liar that habitually planned, executed, and covered up bizarre and overwhelmingly elaborate conspiracies that often required extreme self harm.
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But given the level of scrutiny to which St. Pio was subjected, his pension for macity for lying would have been exposed if it existed. Nor was St. Pio honest but deluded. After careful study, Dr.
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Fesa determined that St. Peio exemplified the most complete balance and a truly perfect harmony between the functions of his nervous system and the faculties of his mind. Both hypotheses are also of course flatly incompatible with the overwhelming videographic,
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photographic and testimonial evidence including from abundant hostile sources. Okay, so let's turn to the vindicatory implications. So I mean first of all he is supernaturally reduplicating Christ's passion wounds, right? So he has like this like multimodal experience of
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vision of Christ saying I unite you to my passion and then he literally becomes a living icon of the passion of Christ.
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So I mean like it's almost like properly basic at that point that Christianity is true. St. begged our Lord to take the stigmata away or to make them invisible.
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Yet, they were miraculously conserved until his death. If anything, God was going out of his way to draw attention to their supernatural character and his stigmata were directly responsible for many conversions and reversions to Catholicism. He's also a victim soul.
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St. Peio interpreted his extraordinary afflictions and as a participation in the passion of our Lord, right? On many occasions, he offered himself as a victim for poor sinners and souls in purgatory. He wrote that Jesus, Mary, and my guardian angel keep encouraging
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me and repeating to me that that the victim to be such needs to shed all of its blood. He characterized his fever as a moral illness that occurred while he contemplated our lord. When Giovanni Seeino thanked him for the regeneration
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of his eye, he replied, "If only you knew what this cost me." Now, of course, like uniting you with my passion in the context of giving suffering is like offering suffering up as a kind of participation in Christ's redemptive
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suffering. That's the theology that's being vindicated here. The mass is also vindicated. St. Po's supernatural charisms reached their apex during the holy sacrifice of the mass. That is when his lesions bled the most. The odor of sanctity was perceived most intensely
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and by the most individuals and he suffered as far as it is possible for human body. He reported that I suffer the scourging from the beginning to the end of mass more intensely after the consecration. Communion is the
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culminating point of my suffering. Also many of St. Pio's charisms and private revelations implicitly presupposed explicitly affirmed or publicly vindicated Catholic doctrines and devotions. The papacy in his diary wrote I received various inner insights about several people. So these are like
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putitive divine revelations that he's he thinks that he's getting from God. These puditive insights about others. I saw his vicor on earth, Pope Pius the 11th, filled with bitterness because of the wickedness of men. Many times I was
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asked to pray and to encourage others to pray for him and for the repentance of these wicked souls. Confession is manifestally vindicated here. St. Pio spent most of his time in the confessional. It has been estimated he listened to at least 5 million
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confessions. St. Peio claimed that God told him what to say in the confessional. Many penitants reported that he confronted them about unconfessed sins or gave them advice that turned out to be prophetic. When a penitant confessed that he had
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considered confession a good institution but did not all believe in the divinity of the sacment, St. Po replied, "These are all heresies and all your communions have been sacrilegious. he must make a general confession. That penitent reported that St. Pio knew about sins
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that humanly speaking it was impossible for the father to know. And of course, you know, this this testimony from the individual passes the criterion of embarrassment that he's just been doing all these sacriiggious communions and he's like having to admit that he was
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like and he's you know, he's like having to admit that uh he didn't even believe in the divinity of the sacraments. And there are a bunch of other testimonies to this as well.
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There's stuff we didn't talk about at all where it's just proximate to those carrorisms that certain Catholic doctrines are true. So like um purgatory is real. The mass is efficacious, you know. Um that and gets people out of
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purgatory through offering Catholic mass, you know. Um there's a distinction between mortal and venial sin on your conscience and it can be absolved through sacramental confession, you know, like we can just, you know, we can keep multiplying examples endlessly like
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he's having apparitions of the Virgin Mary and Jesus to him personally, you know. Um and yeah. So, how does the mortal venial stuff come into it? Like, where where is that in connection with his story? I mean, I know he was a huge confessor and
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what? It's in the reading of hearts. Oh, okay. So if he can tell people what their unconfessed sins are, their unconfessed mortal sins that are on their conscience, and he can tell those people what their unconfessed mortal sins are,
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and then tell that they're being remitted through sacramental confession, whether they've confessed or not, um that's very indicative that the Catholic, you know, basically sactology and satiriology is true.
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Across his lifetime, the estimate is 5 million confessions. 5 million. Now sit with that number for a second and now let me tell you what was happening inside of that confessional because this is the charrorism with the most
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witnesses of anything in his life. He knew people's sins before they spoke. The sculptor Franchesco Msino visited in 1949. Pio asked if he wanted to confess.
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Msina said he wasn't prepared. Padre Peio quote don't say anything to me. Just answer. And then in Msina's own words, he began listing Msina's sins with incredible precision as though he could read his soul. The actor Carlo Campanini came in 1950. Padre Peio's
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opening line began in 1936. Campanini protested. He had just been to the confessional days earlier. Pio repeated it again. I told you to begin in 1936.
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And Campanini remembered the thing he had done 14 years earlier and had been too ashamed to confess. He said that that confession changed his life and he never missed daily mass again. A priest riding the bus to Sanjiovana Ratando
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thought to himself thought never said out loud, "The spiritual life at times seems like trying to climb glass." After his confession, Padre Peio smiled at him. So the spiritual life seems like climbing glass. a his private thought word for word. A woman was too terrified
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to speak in the confessional at all. Padre Peio said gently, "Do you want me to talk for you?" And he recited her entire prepared confession word for word and then told her, "I will be your spiritual father." And then there's my
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favorite. A woman finished her confession and said, "Father, I have another sin, but I can't remember it." Padre Pio said casually, "That's okay.
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Just a few figs." the figs. Not this big dramatic sin. The figs she'd swiped and forgotten about. Now look, cold reading obviously exists, but cold reading produces generalities, okay? Vague hits, fishing questions, calibrated probes.
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But these were specific sins, specific dates, deliberately withheld secrets in private thoughts that never left a person's head. reported by thousands and thousands of independent witnesses over five decades with no coordination. And notice where God stationed this gift,
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okay? Not on a stage, not in a pullpit, in the confessional, the sacrament where Catholics believe Christ himself absolves sins through the priest running at an industrial scale for 50 years. If God wanted to underwrite the sacrament of confession, I genuinely don't know
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what he could have done differently. In the fragrance from Genesis 8 onward, scripture describes acceptable sacrifice as giving off a pleasing aroma to God.
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And Paul applies this language directly to the cross in Ephesians 5:2. Christ gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. So the one man in the modern era marked with the wounds of that sacrifice physically
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gave off the aroma of sacrifice and witnesses consistently reported the fragrance peaking during the mass. If that's a coincidence, it is the most theologically loaded coincidence imaginable. Number two, the peaking.
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Okay, his charisms didn't crescendo randomly. They crescendoed at the consecration. He testified that the suffering intensified after the consecration and that communion was its culminating point. His wounds bled most during mass. The fragrance was strongest at the altar. The gifts were calibrated
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basically to the Catholic liturgy, peaking at the exact moment Catholics believe the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ. If Catholic Eucharistic theology is false, then God spent 50 years intensifying a supernatural display at precisely the
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moment that theology is most wrong. It just makes no sense. Of course, saintly intercession is manifestally being vindicated here. The miracles associated with St. Pio after his death presupposed and vindicated intercessory prayer to and religious veneration of the saints.
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Many of the miracles associated with St. Pio presupposed and vindicated the veneration of icons and relics. During his life, P St. Pio claimed again be a divine leoting to give revelations on behalf of God. He claimed to have
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supernatural knowledge about whether some people were in heaven. For example, when a religious sister asked St. Pio about the recently deceased Pope Pius the 12th, he replied, "I've seen it in paradise." Purgatory is also vindicated here. When Bishop Alberto Costa asked
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Padre Pio if he had ever seen a soul in purgatory, St. Pio replied, "I've seen so many that they don't scare me anymore." On one occasion, he told a couple of friars that I was talking to some souls on their way from purgatory
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to paradise. They came to thank me that I remember them today in the mass. That presupposed not only that purgatory exists, but also that the mass is a propishiatory sacrifice. St. St. Pio claimed to have visited purgatory. So
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there are all these supernatural gifts or all these revelations that God seems to be feeding him interactions that God is giving him with souls in purgatory.
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And this is amply attested. St. Peio also claimed that I've been down to hell with those miserable and God made me experience the sufferings of the damned.
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So once again, God is going out of his way to just flood this guy with manifest supernatural graces and miracles and whatnot. and also giving him all these private revelations about purgatory and hell and the propitiatory sacrifi sacrificial nature of the mass and you
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know how like you can unite your sufferings as a kind of participatory redemption. St. Peter also reported that during a period when he was required to celebrate mass by himself he was never alone. Our lady always kept me company
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during mass. He claimed that our lady comes to me whenever I need her. He marveled that there are people so foolish that they think that they can go through life without the help of the Madonna. What could I ever do without
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her? Refer he referred to our lady as as immaculate mother. He prayed the rosary dozens of times every day and called it his weapon. He claimed that the Madonna never refuses me anything that I ask through the prayer of the rosary. News
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also argues that he received a miraculous cure through the intercession of our lady of Fatima and St. Pio was also devoted to our lady of lords. We're going to cover both of those later on.
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He had an icon of our lady of lords on the wall of his cell. When father Allesio asked St. Pio if he would ever like to make a pilgrimage to Lords, St.
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Pio replied, "I don't have to go to Lords. I go there every night. I see our lady of Lords every night." So again, he's getting all these claimed private revelations and God's going out of his way to put like miraculous stamps of
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approval on this guy as a revelator. So in summary, we've got like seemingly divine vindication of participatory redemptive suffering and vicarious satisfaction for sin. Like one of the central disagreements between the reformers and the Catholic Church, private revelations that seem to support
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the papacy, the distinction between mortal and venial sin and the sacramental power of confession to remit sins that's seen in the carism or supernatural gift uh the reading of hearts that are amply testified to and the ample testimony is just like passed
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with flying colors. Uh the criterion of embarrassment because people are talking about their their secret sins. We have saintly intercession being vindicated from the miracles wrought through his postmortem intercession. The existence of purgatory and the power of the mass
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to release souls from purgatory being vindicated. The existence of hell being vindicated. The efficacy and appropriateness of Mary devotion and intercession as well as the rosary.
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We've got at least some support for the reality of our lady of Fatiman lords which we'll get to later. Like already things are starting to get interesting.
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I mean they'll get more interesting later on. But one final thing that I want to know before going to our next miracle worker is that if you want to posit the most insane string of bizarre coincidences to explain away all this
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evidence, right, all the facts about the stigmata, all the manifold doctors including atheists who examined him, the supernatural blood loss, the odor of sanctity, the hyperothermia, I mean like it's something that's something that's like so hard to be honestly mistaken
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about. Like again, like you're literally just reading a thermometer, bro. you're reading a thermometer and it happens dozens of times with a bunch of different fathers and priests and in the military and all this stuff. Come on.
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And like it's visibly obvious whether or not like a mercury thermometer shatters right in front of your eyes. And of course like we have these things like the testimony people. It's like yeah that was my thermometer. It's like, bro,
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if if if you want to posit the most insane string of bizarre coincidences or conspiracies to explain away all this evidence, promise me promise me that you're out of Catholic miracle related coincidences when we consider the next like I don't know dozens of miracles as
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Ethan Muse says regarding Fatima. Well, so the first thing I want skeptics to be forced to remember before we even get into specifics is remember you're going to be positing a triple coincidence. So multiply the improbability of whatever
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you say to explain the six apparitions to the children by the improbability of whatever thing you say to explain the miracle of the sun by the improbability that the children during the apparitions would predict with specificity whatever event you're saying to explain the
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miracle of the sun. There's a triple coincidence where we have the what whatever these bizarre psychological hypothesis that we're going to advance to explain the six apparitions with the prediction with the actual whatever we say to accommodate the
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minimal data regarding the miracle of the sun. Mhm. Okay. And once we start realizing that, we start realizing that like basically you can't when you start doing two completely independent extraordinary coincidences that are also linked by a prediction, it's going to start being
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really untenable and uncomfortable. And at the very least, if you call it a coincidence, promise me that you're out of coincidences. So then when you go to my second post on my blog, remember that you're out. You're out. Yeah. You're
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done. You You played the coincidence card. Don't get to play it again. No more crazy coincidences. You're out.
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Yeah. Good. Good. Good. Good. Oh, but the coincidences get worse, my friend. They will get worse. You just wait.
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Let's go on to Mna Nadur. Noah McKay, my best friend and fellow philos. So, again, we're still in this just this first section. We just finished Padre Pio in all of his manifold mystical charrorisms with like extremely good
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evidence in favor of them. Now, let's go on to Mirina Nazour. We're still in saintly miracles. No, my best friend and fellow philosophy PhD student at Princeton is working on a post for our substack veritist splendor defending the
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miracles of our lady of Sufania and the contemporary mystic and stigmatist Mirna Nazour, a Melkite Catholic woman who is still alive today. He gave me permission to summarize his research before we eventually post his systematic treatment on Substack. Here's an outline of what
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we're going to cover. First, we're going to cover the sources for the various mystical charisms and whatnot that we're going to be talking about. Secondly, we're going to be talking about the onset of the mystical charisms. Thirdly, we'll be talking about the oil
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exodation, which is one of the central phenomena. Fourth, we we'll be talking about the stigmata. Fifth, her ecstasies. Sixth, we'll be talking about healings. Seventh, we'll go through character and fruits. Then we'll go through hostile and indifferent witnesses who converted as a result of
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the various mystical phenomena. Um, we'll go through the vindicatory implications in section 9. And then we'll conclude in section 10. Okay. So, these are the sources for all the subsequent information in this subsection. Each is written by an
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eyewitness to miraculous phenomena connected with our lady of Sufania. And nearly all the information presented in each source either is or is based on direct eyewitness testimony. So we got Father Elias Zawi. This Sufania chronicled the operations and
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manifestations of Jesus and Mary in Damascus from 1892 to 1990 is a data journal kept by the Melkite Greek Catholic Vicor of Our Lady of Damascus from the second day onward. He provides minute-by-minute breakdowns of nearly every apparition miracle, noting which
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eyewitnesses were present for each and whether independent documentary evidence exists for each. Three factors bolsters Illawi's credibility. First, he never gained financially from his documentation of the phenomenon and dissuaded others from monetizing them.
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Second, he didn't originally intend to publish his account of Our Lady Suania. He was persuaded by others to do so. And third, as soon as this book was published in Arabic, it circulated free of charge in precisely the places where
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most of the dozens of eyewitnesses he had named still lived. The forward to the book was written by Syrian Orthodox patriarch Zawa the first, an eyewitness who featured prominently Zawi's account.
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This is an alternative um you know anglicization of Zilawi. The patriarch said, "It is a joy to present your book Sufania to your to your French readers.
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I myself read in Arabic both in manuscript form and in print. I took note of the truths, the facts, and the extraordinary healings it contains. I appreciate its objectivity and serenity as well as the convincing way presents these events which are by no means new
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in Christianity. Moreover, I was granted the privilege of seeing with my own eyes in my office the blessed oil exuding from an image of a lady of Sonia and likewise from Mirina's hands. It is also evident from the book if you actually
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read it that father Zawi is an extremely cautious, careful and meticulous observer. That's the first source that we rely on. The second one is also from Father Elias Zoi. This is Sufanio over 26 years from 1982 to 2007. This is a
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three volume 2000page chronicle that extends Father Zawi's 1990 work cited above. The chronicle is only available in Arabic. I'm working here from an English translation produced by Deep Pro with the best AI translation on the market which can be accessed via the
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link above. Page page numbers provided from the machine translation do not match those in the original Arabic document. Another source Christian Ravas the operations in Damascus. This is a French journalist's on-site investigation July 1987 providing independent interviews plus access to
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the files of Zawi in Maluli and to Mirna Nazour's notes. Another another resource Renee Laurentine the operations of the blessed virgin Mary today 1990 to 1991.
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This is a marologist of international standing present for the fifth anniversary of the phenomena in November 1987 recording what he saw including one ecstasy. It includes interviews with Ma Nazour and her husband Nicholas Nazour.
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Dr. Philip Lauron. This is another source that we have from 1991. Lauron is a neurologist of the cell Petriier. He was present for Holy Week in 1990 and writes as a clinician. The book also prints the reports of the two
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psychologists who traveled with him. Dr. Antoine Mansour wrote a memoir, our lady of Sufania, which contains his signed testimony of 26th of December 1990. He's a board certified surgeon and UCLA clinical faculty member. In this, he recounts his own examinations of MNA. He
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also reproduces a dozen or so signed statements from eyewitnesses. Pages 55 to 56 includes several photographs of MNA stigmata and ecstasies. Robert Fox, light from the east. This is the most extensive treatment of our Lady Suania available in English. Father Fox was an
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American priest, author, and journalist who interviewed eyewitnesses in Damascus. He also witnessed the miraculous exitation of oilans in September 2001. Another source is a film documentary produced by Dr. Antoine Mansour and his wife Claire. The film contains firsthand testimony from
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several witnesses including medical doctors and state investigators. And another source is sufunnia.com. A massive regularly updated archive containing documents, photographs, and video and audio recordings related to our Lady of Sufania. Okay, so those are the various sources. Okay, so let's go
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to the onset. On November 22nd, 1982, on November 22nd, 1982, Mirina Nazour, a Melkai Catholic, age 18 and married 7 months to Nicholas Nazour, was praying at the bedside of her sick sister-in-law when oil appeared on her hands. 3 days
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later, the same happened while she prayed over her mother. And two days after that, on November 27th, oil began to spontaneously seep from a cheap paper reproduction of Our Lady of Kazan mounted in a plastic frame. Nicholas, who is Orthodox, again, Nicholas is the
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wife of Mir Nazour. He's Orthodox. She's Melkite Catholic. So that's an Eastern Catholic right. It's kind of just like a different lurgical expression of Catholicism um that she belongs to. You know, she still thankfully submits to the Pope DM. So Nicholas who is Orthodox
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telephoned the Greek Orthodox patriarchet on November 27th to notify them of the phenomena. Bishop Bulos Pandeli arrived within hours with two priests and Orthodox clergy were at the house daily from then on. A day later on November 28th, an adversarial state
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investigation was conducted by officer Aram Abud. He made an official report and took photographs and then returned in the afternoon with four colleagues and a physician Dr. Ciba Abdel Ahad. MNA was told to wash her hands with soap in
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front of them and dry them on paper handkerchiefs they supplied. They surrounded her and told her to pray. Oil once more spontaneously appeared on her hands in their presence and on the paper icon in its plastic frame. Abdel Ahad
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turned her hands over, rubbed both palms, and confirmed that her forearms were dry. The agents examined the walls for hidden tubing, and took the image out of its frame, tearing the top right corner. Oil resumed exuding from the
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image as soon as it was replaced. Abdelahad personally confirmed to Zawi after the fact that he had seen oil flow from the icon and in quantity from MNA's hands. His signed written testimony is preserved. The investigation was also
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confirmed by General Mustafa, Minister of Defense, who had personally submitted Abdulahad's report. Faris Mana, one of the intelligence officers present for the investigation, confirmed on video that he had dismantled the icon and found no evidence of tampering. He also
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confirmed this in handwritten testimony provided to Father Zaloi. Laura notes that oil covers Mina's palm, the back of her hand, and fingers, while her forearm, often bare, carries no trace of oil, ruling out a source concealed in a
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sleeve, and being watched by witnesses rubbing against an external source would have been easily detectable. And again, this is all just the onset. Later on, I'm going to go through why this stuff is naturalistically inexplicable. On the evening of November 28th, Zawi arrived
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at Mirna's house to hear that the oil had stopped flowing from the icon. After Mirina knelt before the image and prayed, Zawi witnessed oil come from her palms and fingers as though a sponge were being squeezed underneath, apparently bubbling. At the same time,
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drops formed on the glass of the icon and ran down. The flow was heavy enough to fall on the carpet. A month later, on December 31st, so again, all this is just like the onset of the phenomena in
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November in late November 1982. A month later on December 31st, the Greek Orthodox patriarchet recognized the apparitions associated with the icon.
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Muna was receiving various apparitions of the blessed virgin Mary. Greek Orthodox patriarchet also affirmed that the Nuzours were devout and that God was present in their home and offered that the icon be transferred to the local Orthodox church so that it could be
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venerated by the faithful. As I said, the onset of the phenomena also involved a series of five married apparitions to MNA, which only she experienced. Many witnesses were present during these apparitions. Mirna provided detailed descriptions of Mary as wearing a white
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dress, a cape with a blue belt, a veil falling from the right shoulder to her feet, and a and radiant as if covered in diamonds and pearls together with details about Mary's face, her exact words, her emotions, movements, and so
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on. The apparitions to MNA were also multimodal, involving sight, sound, and touch. And we'll see later that there are lots of external corroborations of their verticality. MNA reports that Mary is gifting her with the oil as a supernatural charism. On the fifth
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initial apparition, which is 24th of March 1983, at 9:30 p.m., again, surrounded by a crowd of witnesses in her home, oil ran from her hands heavily enough to fall to the ground in a stream, which began, as immediately
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reported by MNA when the cross of the rosary that the Virgin was holding touched Mina's hands. In fact, during this episode, a young man named Nabil put his hands under it and washed his face and head in the oil. Immediately
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after the apparitions, Mina delivered the various messages that the Virgin that the Virgin entrusted to her. For the next 7 years, from October 1983 to November 1990, both the Virgin and Christ appeared to her 33 more times during ecstasies. We'll talk more about
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those ecstasies later. So, first up is like the sort of central phenomenon, the oil. The sheer volume of firstirhand eyewitness testimony to the miraculous exodation of oil from both Mna's body and Mna's Madonna and child icon of our
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lady of Kazan is so great that it would take me ages to comb through it all.
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Here's a small representative sample. First, composition. The oil was collected on many occasions and subjected to scientific testing. Surgeon Michael Oade carried a sample to a laboratory at Moors, West Germany on September 7th, 1984, which found the oil
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to be pure olive oil. Another laboratory analysis issued from the Syrian government's scientific research center, which reports to the Ministry of Defense. Zilawi applied in writing to General Mustafa Slass on 26th of June 1985, delivered the request personally,
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handed the sample to the center's director, and had the result on 19th February 1986. Philipe Lauron, a neurologist from a prestigious university hospital in France, personally delivered samples to a laboratory in Paris for analysis. In April 1990, Fox counts six analyses in
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Europe and Syria, all concordant that it's pure olive oil. Laurentine notes that the analysts did not know the origin of the sample. The German report is archived with an English translation, as is the French chromatographic analysis requested by Lauron. So, that's
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a bit about the composition. Turning now to quantity. The quantity of oil exuded exceeds any plausible naturalistic explanation. On the first day of the phenomena, the plate beneath the icon placed to catch the oil filled to the 150ml brim. According to signed
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testimony from Brigadier General George Badawi, on the night of April 18th, 1987, the image exuded 250 grams of oil from inside a sealed niche that equates to roughly 273 millig of oil, which is conservatively 8 times the volume of the
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icon, which is 6 by8 cm, together with its assembled frame. Lauron corroborates this, recording the weight at 220 g in April. On September 28th, 1987, Riyad Neeshmi's signed testimony documents continuous flow from Mirus hands for 40 minutes straight, and Fox reports
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quantities sufficient to anoint as many as 5,000 visitors during a visit to Australia in 1993. Very Reverend Father Paul W. Romley's signed testimony states that enough oil flowed from Ma's hands during her visit to St. Nicholas Orthodox Cathedral on Palm Sunday, 1988
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to anoint 1,000 people. This was captured on video. Mna is standing outside and wearing short sleeves.
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Father Mali measured the quantity of oil that exuded from the Suania icon between April and September 1987 at 1.22 kg. Dr.
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George Iscandar, the obstitrician who delivered MNA's son by cesarian at Northridge Hospital on 26th of July 1988, writes over his own signature on 27th of March 1991 that while he was examining her at a post-operative visit, both her hands began to drip oil so
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copiously that his employees mopped it with cotton balls. oil would spontaneously begin exuding not only from her palms and the backs of her hands, but also from her fingers, face, neck, chest, forehead, eyes, and once her feet. The sheer amount of testimony
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to this among perceptually well situated, careful observers in a vast and diverse array of circumstances with no remotely plausible hidden reservoir is overwhelming. Odor of sanctity. On three days in November 1984, she vomited fragrant oil multiple times resembling
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the Myron of the Byzantine right despite taking no food during those three days except Holy Communion. When she received communion, the whole room was filled with an intense sweet scent. Fox also reports that the oil that exuded from
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Mirina's hands had the odor of roses. A TV reporter from Los Angeles who witnessed the oil also noted the floral scent on video. Many eyewitness testimonies compiled by Father Zawi note that the scent of roses or incense emanates from reproductions of the icon
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when they ooze oil. And recall that and recall that according to laboratory analyses, the oil that comes from Muna's hands and the Sufania Icon contain no perfume. There are multiple laboratory analyses that confirm that it's pure olive oil. spontaneous formation. On
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January 17th, 1983, Zawoi arrived unannounced, knelt before a second paper icon which had no glass over it and watched oil seep from the paper itself.
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On November 4th, 1984, the apostolic Nunio Archbishop Nicholas Ratuno meta at the house of the little sisters of Fuko Fu Fukold. Fuko, I don't know. Sister Pia took a picture of the Virgin from her own missile and handed it over to
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Mna. Oil spontaneously came from the card and from Mna's hands. The Nunio took the dripping card and called it a sign from heaven. Mina's icon was also kept in a marble and glass container built by Mirna's father, sealed with a
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single key held by Father Mali, a priest who had spent 40 years attacking claims of supernatural prodigies. Oil continued accumulating inexplicably inside the sealed container. Father Pierre Bos sent from Radio Notre Dame in Paris, stood beside MNA in July 1984, repeating
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silently that he did not want a miracle when oil began to flow from the mouth of the Virgin on a dry holy card that Mna was holding. A card produced from a bystander's pocket. Away from Mirina, a signed and sealed joint testimony from
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Father Jacob Abu Sada, Greek Catholic priest of Bethlehem, and Father Ibrahim Kuri, Greek Orthodox priest of Beth Sahur, with both parish seals and two lay signatures attesting that an image brought back from Sufania oozed for a full month in a private house, and that
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hundreds of clergy and faithful came from Bethlehem, Bethour, Bejala, Jerusalem, Ramla, and Nazareth. Signed testimonies issuing from around the United States attest that other reproductions of MNA's icon spontaneously exude oil in front of many witnesses thousands of miles away from
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MNA. Fox notes that up to a thousand reproductions of the icon have reportedly exuded oil in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan Iraq Palestine Venezuela Switzerland, the United States, Canada, France Holland Germany Belgium Australia, Haiti, and other Arabic countries. Formation inside sealed
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containers. Oil has often exuded from the Sufunnia icon or from objects associated with Our Lady of Sufania from inside sealed containers before multiple witnesses. From April 1983 onward, the icon was locked in a hermetically sealed niche to which only Father Mali held the
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key. Mna's memoir reports that on October 23rd, 1983, outside the Nour home and in front of five named witnesses, Father Mali put dry cotton in a box, sealed the box with tape, and prayed to the Virgin for just three dots
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of oil so that he could distribute some to the visitors. When he opened the box, the cotton was soaked with oil. On May 27th, 1987, Ellie Kaungi visited Sufania and took home a reproduction of the miraculous icon and a small piece of
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cotton dry and wrapped in nylon. Over a month later, on July 5th, while discussing the Sufana phenomenon with Mr. Camille Carak and his wife Juliet in their house in Aleppo, he removed the piece of cotton from its nylon wrapping
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and found it soaked in oil enough to coat the hands of all three witnesses.
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Ellyia gave his written testimony to Ziloi. The oil also has naturalistically inexplicable behavior. Ravas reports that drops of Suvenia oil on one silk sample were compared with commercial oil on another silk sample. After 8 days, the commercial sample was stained. The
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other was clean and dry. Moreover, a paper print soaked repeatedly for years. Right? This again the icon that she has of our lady of Kazan. This is a paper print and it has oil on top of it for
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years on end. Got like photographs about signs etc. A paper print soaked repeatedly for years should cockle, discolor, and go translucent. But Fox describing the icon in 2001, 19 years on, records an ordinary paper print of the Virgin and Child. The Bethlehem
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image oozed for a month. The Aleppo images for a month. And the second Sufania reproduction has oozed from unglazed paper since January 1983.
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Lauron watching drops form on the image and fall into the N on Easter Sunday 1990 records that the image is not damaged afterwards, as though the oil dried very fast. On November 25th, 1983, hospital director Dr. Joseph Nazalla
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applied oil to one of the images of the Virgin which became wrinkled and wrapped unlike when oil exudes from the image.
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Next up is Stigmata. Mna also repeatedly supernaturally reduplicates Christ's passion wounds on her forehead from the crown of thorns, her side from the lance, her hands and her feet. The wounds first appeared on November 25th, 1983. Since then, they have come only in
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years when the Orthodox and Catholic Easter fall on the same day, 1984, 1987, 1990, 2001, 2004. There's both photographic and videographic evidence of the wounds and multiple direct eyewitnesses testified that they open spontaneously before their eyes without anyone touching them. This is a picture
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of a side wound here. This is a picture of the crown of thorns wound here. I, you know, I could have added like tons of more pictures, etc. But, okay, firstly, spontaneous opening and inexplicable healing on the 25th of
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November, 1983. So, this is the 1983 stigmatization. Lauron reports that five wounds opened simultaneously in the afternoon and closed of themselves around 11 p.m. without leaving a scab.
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Raas and Zawi both note that father Maluli called in eight physicians who saw them and in some cases palpated them. Among the named are Jamil Margie, Joseph Nazraa, Ellie Barca, John Sage, Joseph Masameiri, Georges Muner, and Ellie Farra. Masameiri took blood which
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typed Demir's own a positive. The Greek Orthodox Archbishop saw them too. Zawi also corroborates Lauron's report of rapid healing by 11 p.m. Despite wounds opening simultaneously in the afternoon, they closed of themselves around 11 p.m.
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with multiple people, groups of people present there. Leading up to this first stigmatization, evidentially salient events occurred whose probe of force I'll discuss later. Ravas logs that on October 18th, so this is about a month earlier, 1983, MNA felt a sensation in
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the palms as if they were being pierced by a sharp pointed object. She entered ecstasy from 6:20 p.m. to 6:50 p.m.
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About 2 weeks later, on October 31st, at 2:45 p.m., oil appeared on her hands, and she felt pain in her hands, feet, at side, and forehead. Then small swellings of the flesh, like calluses began to appear in the middle of the palms. At
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7:04 p.m., the oil returned with the same sensation now in the feet. On November 4th, slightly bleeding wound 1.5 cmters long appeared under her left breast. On November 25th, at 4:15 p.m., the side wound bled again. Around 5
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p.m., blood came from the palms and the feet at the places where the pain had been on October 28th, confirming these like little um rosy kind of growths on the skin that kind of pre-announce the stigmata, which are like these
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excruciences or, you know, like calluses or kind of outgrowths with a kind of rosy color. Confirming these rosy excretes or growths or callous-like objects, Dr. George Muaner produced a signed testimony that he observed bleeding from raised reddish growths on
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MN's hands and feet at 5:00 p.m. on November 25th. Here's his signed written testimony from 4 days later. I'm not going to I'm not going to read through it, but you know, you can pause the screen and read it if you want. Here's
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also a transcript from an interview with him. You can also pause the screen and read this. So, you know, there's the first half. There's the second half. So, the opening of the wounds is sometimes pre-announced by a throbbing rosy
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callus, not a wound, in the middle of her palms or on the backs of the feet, backed by a signed eyewitness report from a trained observer. Moreover, the calluses are visible in video footage from no November 6th, 1983. On Holy
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Thursday in 1984, so now this is the next year, 1984. Holy Thursday, the wounds opened around 3:30 p.m. The side wound was deep and measured 10 cm. A physician present advised Nicholas to take his wife to the hospital and have
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it sutured. The answer was that the one who opened the wounds would close them.
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Once again, by about 11 p.m., all five were completely closed without a scab. The Syriak Catholic Archbishop Joseph Munier saw them, too. At 2:25 p.m. on April 16th, 1987, this is a stigmatization. 3 years later, Zawi found Mirna praying with Mali. At the
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moment of onset of the stigmata, the only people in the room were the two priests. She knelt in the corner, cried out, and pressed her hands to her for to her temples. Zawi moved to help her up, and saw blood spurt from her forehead,
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reflected in the mirror in front of them, then from her palms as her arms dropped, then as they laid her on the bed, from her feet. ly timed at 2:45 p.m. So this for the same episode in 1987, Jean Cloud and Geneviev Ancali,
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both medical biologists practicing at Espalon in France, had arrived from Paris the day before. That's April 15th, 1987. Zawi requested from them a formal report of their observations, which they sent him on April 17th, the day after the stigmatization. Zawi reproduces it
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in his book, dated and signed. They confirm on April 16th, there are wounds at the center of the forehead, in each palm, on each foot, and under the left breast, a long oozing lesion with clean edges. Her pulse was between 120 and
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130. The lightest touch was apparently painful. The wounds on the forehead and feet in their signed joint report. They report that the wounds on the forehead and the feet reopened spontaneously in their presence with nobody touching them. The phase of suffering was
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followed by relaxation during which basic reflexes had disappeared. the wounds that they cleaned. So, you know, they're having these extensive multimodal interactions with her. The wounds they cleaned were shallow cuts with clean edges. The forehead wound was deeper and swollen. And so, here's, you
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know, this is from this day, April 16th, um that we have a picture of the side wound here. On April 17th, the day afterwards, they reported that the forehead was swollen but painless. The hands and feet were healing normally.
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So, just like normal normal what you would expect from like a normal wound, but the 12cm wound under the left breast was completely healed. and they underlined I think they they either underlined or atalicized completely in their report. General George Badawi
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himself an eyewitness also noted that the forehead wounds reopened spontaneously without anyone touching them. Quote, "I observed everything that happened until the event ended around 5:30 p.m. Around 4:30 p.m., just as Mirina raised her hand to her forehead,
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pressing her thumb and index finger together in a motion that seemed to be pulling out thorns, two drops of blood appeared at the top of the upward sloping line of the wound on her forehead. They were shaped like small
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circles that began to grow larger. And then dark red blood flowed from the right side. What I saw looked exactly like the mark left by a prick from a pin or a thorn. A shiver then ran through my
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entire body to the point that I had the greatest difficulty singing that day's hymn. When Father Zawi asked me to sing it just before MNA entered into ecstasy, I felt as though I were suffocating. I could find no explanation for the
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appearance of the two drops 2 hours after the stigmata appeared. And I am certain that no hand touched the spot where the two drops appeared while I was there. On this occasion, two surgeons also examined the hands and feet and and
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confirmed wounds through the cutaneous and subcutaneous planes. Father Nicholas Balbaki, a surgeon and Greek Orthodox priest, saw and touched them because an ecstasy followed the opening. The wounds could be handled without pain. So, her wounds are literally opening and then
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she goes into this state of relaxation during which her basic reflexes disappear and she's kind of in an ecstasy at that point. She's getting like a vision or like a multimodal experience of the multi- of the Virgin Mary. Okay, so that's 1987. Turn now to
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1990. This is the stigmatization of 1990. On April 12th, 1990, Easter again fell on a common date. And you know because they recognized the pattern this stuff is happening on when you know when Easter is falling on a common date. The
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room was full of foreigners who had come for that reason. Pilgrims from France, Belgium Germany Canada Egypt Jordan and Lebanon. Among them, Dr. Lauron and two psychologists. Filming began before the onset of the stigmatization. Dr.
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Mansour had been pointing a video camera at MNA since 9:00 a.m. on Tony Hannah's advice. So, the wounds were filmed from the first second to the last, including the stretching of the skin, followed by its tearing on the hands and then the
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feet. Lauron filmed as The forehead wounds open around 11:15 a.m. and has five fine vertical lesions producing three main runs of blood. The hands and feet open a little before 2 p.m. Side wound open shortly after 12 cm long in
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the form of shallow scratch. Two physicians examined her and wrote up their observations. Dr. Lauron, who again is an accomplished neurologist from one of the most prestigious university hospitals in Europe, recorded the falling for the stigmatization of 1990. Arriving in arriving in Mirna's
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room at 1:15 p.m. on Holy Thursday, 1990, with the forehead wounds already open and the hands and feet not yet, he examined the backs of her feet and found on each a small rosy excgressence pinker than the surrounding pale skin, which
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appeared to increase slightly in volume during the seconds he watched. He recorded this afterwards. What is notable about her is that before the wounds opened, a swelling of the skin could be observed, causing it to turn a deeper shade of pink. Having witnessed
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the entire episode on Holy Thursday afternoon, I had the opportunity to photograph and film her feet on which this swelling was clearly clearly visible. The wounds open spontaneously without any external object or suspicious action on the part of MNA or
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anyone in the audience as if the skin were opening from the inside and exploding. The authenticity of the stigmata phenomenon therefore seems well established in her case. Like in 1983, the rosy calluses that preceded the wounds in 1990 were captured on video.
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In Easter 2004, a Scandinavian medical team came to Damascus to study the stigmata. the cardiothoracic surgeon Nut Reneo of Ulaval University Hospital Oslo, the psychiatrist Oand Ekerberg, the dermatologist Kato Mor and from Sweden, Goran Salarude and Eric Hogblad.
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Those are the people who composed this Scandinavian medical team who came to Damascus to study sigmatada in eastern in Eastern 2004. Their hypothesis was that a disorder of cutaneous microirculation, ariththroalgia might produce lesions of this kind. Mina was
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examined before, during, and after stigmatization by clinical observation, genotyping of blood from the wounds against her venus blood, microscopic and digital photography, laser diaper profusion scanning, spectroscopy, and impetence measurement against control.
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Their findings indicate a 3.4 cm lesion in the left loin on Holy Thursday, blood flow measurements lacking the characteristics of ariththroalgic reaction and resembling the control, no local hypoxia, saturation normal. The conclusion, their conclusion was that the lesion was not due to
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ariththroalgia. Self-infliction is utterly untenable, as is mental illness. The wounds were preceded by rosy calluses in 1983 and 1990 that could not have been produced by a blade. The wounds repeatedly, spontaneously opened in front of multiple eyewitnesses who
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report the wounds opening of their own accord with no one touching them in 1987 and 1990. These eyewitnesses were in totally perceptually conducive circumstances and close proximity to her. And there were trained observers present who were watching for self
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mutilation. And there were trained observers present who were watching for self mutilation. And their testimonies sometimes come to us immediately afterwards. The wounds repeatedly healed extremely rapidly and anomalously that happened in 1983, 1984 and 1987. There was no financial motive for the stigmata
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or oil exodations as we'll see. And at least two psychologists who examined Mirina before, during, and after the stigmatization and ecstasy of 1990 confirmed that she was psychologically normal. Here's an excerpt from the assessment of dear Laro, a psychologist
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from the University of Paris. quote, "The large number of hours spent with Mirina, the constant and exceptional closeness I was able to experience with her under circumstances as varied as possible, sometimes involving the most mundane daily occurrences, sometimes
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involving phenomena that cannot be rationally explained throughout Holy Week, allow me to highlight some of the most striking character traits of MNA's personality, or at least of her behavior. What struck me most, first and foremost, was the fact that she remains,
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regardless of the situation, completely natural, simple in her demeanor, her gestures, her gate, and her expressions.
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Her facial expressions vary greatly depending on the moment. I turn serious, cheerful, contemplative, suffering with dignity and restraint, tender, always closely attuned to what she's experiencing in the present moment. One gets a strong sense of authenticity. At no time, whether ordinary or
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extraordinary, have I noticed any attempt to create a dramatic effect, to act, or to put on a show. It is clear that she displays no signs of hysteria.
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In line with this naturalness, she remains eminently calm and does not have what is called a nervous temperament. I have never caught her making a gesture of impatience, irritability, annoyance, or agitation, either in daily life or during her sufferings on Holy Thursday
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and Holy Saturday. She remains in control of herself even during periods of intense suffering when the stigmata open and when the oozing oil causes her eyes pain and blinds her. End quote.
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Lauron, a neurologist, agreed with this assessment, writing in a letter to the Greek Orthodox patriarch. For me, there is no doubt MNA is simple and natural.
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She's not hysterical, and the phenomena I was able to observe and film are scientifically inexplicable. Dr. Pierre Oalon, assistant professor of psychiatry at McGill University, examined Mina during her visit to Canada in 1997 and wrote the following report. Pierre
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interviewed Mirina Azour. The purpose of the interview was to evaluate the psychiatric status of her. Generally, Mina appeared calm, related well to the interviewer. She was not in any apparent distress and showed no abnormality in her psycho motor activity. Her mood was
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cheerful and congruent to her thoughts. Her mental stream showed no evidence of loosening of association, and the content showed no hallucination, delusion, or any or any psychotic material. Her judgment and insight were good. In brief, I found no evidence for
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psychosis nor psychotic thought process. I can say without any hesitation that Ma does not show any psychopathology. She's mentally sound. And dude, like the degree of insanity required for self-infliction would clearly manifest in other aspects of her life. You
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consider, for example, the insanity needed to stab herself five times in the forehead in order to inflict the five distinct subcutaneous wounds attested to by surgeons during the 1990 stigmatization. Yet, by all accounts, she's psychologically healthy and normal. And you know, there again, there
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are a billion other reasons why, you know, self-infliction and mental illness are just untenable explanations. I mean, like again, these stigmatizations follow a predictable, repeatable schedule coinciding with unified Easter dates.
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again like the runes repeatedly, spontaneously open in front of multiple witnesses. They're healing extremely rapidly and anomously like self-infliction explains none of this.
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Okay, so that's the stigmata. Let's go to the ecstasies. Lauron counts 33 ecstasies to 26th of November 1990.
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Eight of them outside Damascus lasting between 5 and 75 minutes. The nature of MNA's ecstasies precludes fraud, performance, and mental illness.
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Pattern: There's abundant exodation of oil from face and hands, sometimes neck and eyes, for several minutes beforehand. The exodation of oil is progressive, visible on film with droplets running down her face. And then it's followed by immobility. For
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representative example, you can see this time stamp here. The clinical picture, it's recorded by different physicians across the years. Tachi cardia of 100 to 130 with low blood pressures in Mansour's examination as if somebody were under a heavy shock. Rigidity,
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abolished tendon reflexes and and an indifferent planter reflex. No blink to threat and coral insensitivity.
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Respiration is slow and abdominal rather than thoracic. There's no swallowing. fingers spring back when a physician tries to open them. There's no response to camera flood lights on open eyes. Her ecstasies are painless and then have a late onset pain. On November 26th, 1987,
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Margie bent over the bed and moved her eyeballs energetically while she was in ecstasy with no response. So, he's literally like moving her eyeballs, touching like again moving her eyeballs energetically while she's in ecstasy with no response on her end. Her left
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forearm was pinched hard enough to bruise it with no response. On coming out of the ecstasy, Mina immediately rubbed the left arm with her right hand.
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Sensation had returned and the arm hurt. She did not know what had been done to her and reacted only once the state ended. Two years earlier on November 26th, 1985, Mirina entered ecstasy before a crowded room. Among those
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present was a man in his 40s whose battery of tests marked him out as a physician whom Ravas named Abil Lama.
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Among other liberties, he inserted a knife blade under the nail of her right index finger. Nicholas Mna's husband moved to stop the dude and Zoi urged that he be allowed to continue. Blood then flowed. She showed no reaction.
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When the trance ended, she felt pain in the finger and the nail was found partially detached. Her pupils don't track ambient light. Mansour opened her eyes during an ecstasy in a large room lit by one weak ceiling bulb with no
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video lights on and found the peoples narrowed rather than dilated in like this kind of darkly lit room. You know your your eyeballs are like your pupils are supposed to supposed to dilate, right? When when it's kind of dark.
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Coming out of her ecstasy, she was drowsy. She told him that she could hear him but not see him only light. He reexamined and the pupils were still narrow. So this is sort of coming out of the deep ecstasy. She then gives the
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message that the virgin gave her during the ecstasy and then once she had given the message was she said that the light was gone and her pupils returned to normal. Lauron records the inverse anomaly on holy Saturday 1990 pupils
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were very dilated although the video flood lights should have contracted them. Messages Mina's ordinary speech gropes and hesitates in contrast to the clarity of the messages that she delivers at the end of her ecstasies which Laurentine judges beyond her
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capacities. Lauron notes that the messages do not spare her studying the Christ message of 26th of November 1985 requiring her to apply herself to prayer and to despise herself and concludes that they are not a projection of her
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wishes. Psychological examination again two psychologists issued reports after 6 days of continuous observation of Mna accustomed to conducting many interviews and competent to detect hysterics. They noticed no tendency to abnormal behavior. So it's like hm these ecstasies are like following a repeated
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predictable schedule on certain like religiously significant dates and they're the sorts of things that are totally not under her control. If this were a natural illness, the these things would manifest in other contexts. They wouldn't follow religiously significant
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dates. What What's going on? One of the most dramatic ecstasies occurred on November 26th, 1984, weeks prior, November 10th, MNA reported to her friend Hana Janine that that she had heard the virgin's voice, saying, "I shall take your eyes." Which she and
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those around her interpreted as a prophecy that she would be struck blind. This came to the attention of father Zawi, who asked Mir about it directly on November 24th. She confided him that she was worried about the impact her
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blindness would have on her family. She went into ecstasy on November 26th and when she emerged, she could no longer see. This is confirmed by video footage which shows that her visual threat reflex was totally abolished following the ecstasy. An opthalmologist, Dr. Elia
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Thara, examined Mirna on November 27th and certified that her blindness was not ocular damage. Her vision returned after 3 days. Then, since the oil had begun to appear, Mina had been had been praying to the virgin, "I gave you my eyes for
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those who cannot see, my heart for those with weak hearts, and my legs for those who cannot walk." During her three days of blindness, Mina fasted from all food except the Eucharist. Multiple eyewitnesses testified that when she received communion, the whole room
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filled with a strong sweet scent. On one occasion, after receiving communion, she vomited a large quantity of fragrant oil. Her eyes tracked religious objects such as rosaries and crucifixes, but nothing else during those three days of blindness. Okay, let's go on to the
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healings. Several medically documented healings are associated with Our Lady of Sufania. You can see this document which contains excerpts from Zawi 2008. But he still has a lot more digging to do. He's sort of still in the midst of like his
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systematic re. Okay. Paralysis. On January 26th, 1983, Alice Benjleon, a woman from Aleppo, was instantaneously healed of 12- year long paralysis of the arm while praying before the miraculous icon of our lady of Sufania in the church of the Holy Cross in Damascus a
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few hundred yards from Muna's home. Her arm, which was bent and discolored, straightened and regained full range of motion immediately. She went to her physician of 20 years, Dr. Pierre Salam, that very day for examination. In a signed report, Dr. Salam declared the
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following. In 1970, she came to see me one day complaining of pain in her left shoulder that had been present for two days accompanied by loss of function.
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Movement to the shoulder and emerald was limited and the hand was in a swan neck position indicating damage to the radial nerve. Hot baths, massages and ad hoc exercises had no effect. A year later she traveled to Beirut. There she
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consulted a specialist who advised her to continue the massages and prescribed only sedatives. Subsequently she consulted several colleagues in Aleppo including Dr. Toutold blah blah. X-rays taken in 1973 already showed perarticular calcifications of the scapulmeral joint like a yeah like a a
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bonal like a bony kind of outgrowth in the articular region of her where the scapula and the humorris are joined. She underwent joint injections but they were ineffective. In the summer 1982, she consulted a specialist from Germany. He
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gave her no hope. By then, the disability had become so severe that the abduction of the arm did not exceed 35 to 45 degrees. The flexion and extension of the forearm relative to the arm varied between 90° and 120°. Her hand
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was always in a drooping swan neck position with significant muscle atrophy of the extensors and intermetarpal muscles. She could not lift more than one kill as her finger felanges were always extended relative to one another.
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In the second and third felanges could not flex toward the palm due to the constantly flexed position of her painful of her painful wrist. In early February 1983, I happened to stop by her husband's house to get my car fixed. He
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said to me, "She'll be at your place in a little while. She went to visit the Virgin in Damascus, and she's completely healed." Sure enough, an hour later, Mrs. Ben Leon was at my office. "Look, doctor, she healed me in a matter of
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seconds. While I was praying to her, I felt little taps on my head, even though there was no behind me. I put my hand on my head and realized she was there. Then I felt a sharp pain in my arm. I opened
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it and it opened completely along with my fingers and my hand moved. Look, I examined her. The shoulder moves much better than before. Abduction reaches 90 degrees for the humorous relative to the scapula and the forearm opens normally
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to 180° relative to the arm. The finger is open and closed normally. Grip strength is normal despite persistent muscle atrophy of the extensor muscles.
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The swan neck has disappeared and the wrist extends normally. To date, she's doing very well and has resumed her normal life at home. I personally have no scientific explanation to offer. In witness thereof, I issue this certificate. At Father Zoi's request,
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Dr. Slam took X-rays of Mrs. Benjleon's arm and found that the underlying calcification was still present, yet she had full range of motion and no pain.
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This rules out misdiagnosis and spontaneous remission. Benon can be seen on video moving her hand and arm pretty normally next to Dr. Salam. The arm is neither deformed nor dis. The video was recorded on April 30th, 1985. X-rays
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taken between 1983 and 1990 all showed that the underlying pathology was still present, yet she clearly had full range of motion and could move her arm and hand painlessly. It's worth emphasizing that this is a case of the instantaneous
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total resolution of 12- year long paralysis which was beyond recovery according to multiple doctors at the moment of prayer confirmed by an examination performed the very same day and in the context of religious experience. Character and fruits. The
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evidence strongly indicates that Mirina is a humble, obedient, loving, faithful, patient, honest, and virtuous individual. And and the priest connected with her case exhibit no signs of ulterior motive. Humility. She refuses to anoint clergy, handing them the oil
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to anoint themselves. When a crowd tried to applaud her, the priest stopped it. Laurentine, who questioned her closely, lists her traits, a sense of personal and social responsibility, a sense of humor, a sense of the real without any
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obsessional dwelling on the extraordinary events, obedience to the church, and no hysterical or neurotic behavior. She does not seek to put herself forward. Laurentine, in the preface to Lauren's book, gives a representative assessment. Mina, who I might know well, is above suspicion. She
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is selfless. Recent events have worsened the financial situation of her household which her husband had been leading toward a great prosperity. She is an exceptionally transparent and sincere woman. This young woman, a good wife and loving mother, accepts whatever befalls
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her, including her suffering with an unpretentious sincerity that leaves no room for doubt. Lauron goes so far as to say, "Today, the sincerity, honesty, and humility of this young mother are beyond any doubt for anyone capable of making a
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fair and reasonable assessment. No financial motive. The Nazour family was not poor. Nicholas was qualified in Germany as an upmarket hair stylist. He came home, built a business that left him comfortable and rein and reinvested in a high-class restaurant in Latakia.
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He gave it up because of what happened to his wife and sold the restaurant at a loss. Asked whether he was happier, he said that they had lost financially, but that in his heart he was happier. They had lost the earth and gained heaven.
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The Nzour family also lost the house as a home. Prayer has been held in the courtyard daily since 1982. The courtyard was roofed to take the crowds and the balcony reinforced when it began to give way under them. MNA and Nicholas
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regularly gave sick and invalid individuals their bed while they slept on the living room sofa. Their privacy was gone, their work was hampered, and their rest was repeatedly interrupted.
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From the first weeks, a notice stood at the entrance. Florentine saw it handwritten in red under the image saying that the household accepts no gifts and no money. And this refusal is strictly enforced. Raas reports the Damascus customs officer who opened
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Ziloi's outgoing letters in July 1987 and found small bags of oiled cotton together with cash and checks which was money being returned to French correspondents who had tried to pay.
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These are the extents to which they're going not to take money. Zoi held to the rule abroad in Canada on May 22nd, 1989.
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He refused a sealed envelope, took it only when told it was the bequest of a woman who had died days earlier and did not open it. then handed the thousand Canadian dollars inside to his host on reaching the house and days later spent
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the sum on an air ticket so that a Canadian television producer who could not afford the fair could come to Damascus. The Arabic edition of his memoirs was printed at a layman's expense for free distribution. They gave away hundreds of thousands of images,
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booklets, and books for free, each carrying a printed notice designed to head off commercial exploitation. They literally printed out a notice. Don't do this. Dr. Mansour's own book and video carry the line that they are distributed free of charge to clergy. This is no
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financial motive. obedience. Zawi reported to his bishop within hours on the first evening and took the mandate he was given, "Observe and be very careful." When the Orthodox patriarch decided the icon should go to the church of the Holy Cross, Nicholas, who had
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hoped it would be venerated in churches of several communions, kept his disappointment to himself and agreed at once on being told that obedience to one's ecclesiastical superior is owed to the Lord. In February 1983, a senior churchman ordered Zawi to stop going to
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Suania. He obeyed and stayed away 10 months on the grounds that the Lord can always do without anyone. Before publishing, he asked Bishop Edelby whether an impremature was needed. The messages of 1982 to 1987 were submitted for review and carry a Neil Obstack
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given in 1987 by the superior of the Lazarus in Damascus. Reticence and diligence on December 11th 1982, Zawi learned that Nicholas had given an interview to a Lebanese publisher. He told Nicholas the press would exploit the thing and do it harm and the two
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agreed to refuse all interviews with anyone for years. When copies of the November 1985 message began circulating with errors, Zawi twice demanded every copy be collected. Zawi also advised Mirina and Nicholas not to travel aba abroad to publicize the phenomenon
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unless sponsored by a bishop which advice they followed. Virtue those who talk to me think, you know, she's basically a saint. She's extremely devout. She prays in abundance. She suffers patiently etc. Fruits. The proximate fruits of the phenomenon is
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the renewal of prayer among Christians in Damascus and the rejuvenation of lukewarm nominal faith on the part of lots of people including Mirna's husband as well as various conversions. The area is heavily Syriak Orthodox and the messages feature a call for
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institutional unity in the church. One of the primary eyewitnesses was a Syriak Orthodox patriarch who unilaterally initiated ecumenical dialogue with John Paul II in 1984 partly as a response to the miracles. Those talks were productive and resulted in approval for
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intercomunion in grave circumstances. There are also hostile and indifferent witness conversions. Conversions after witnessing multiple miraculous phenomena include Dr. Margie from a settled scientific dismissal and from atheism.
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Mali from a 40-year campaign against supernatural prodigies. Hafuri from public opposition to advocacy in print.
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Mansour from a nominal faith to weeping on his knees a month after reading the dossier. Ununice from Marxism to the first prayer of his adult life made as a Muslim. They also include an Arabic teacher whom Nicholas remembered as the
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man who first taught him what communism was. And they include the young Maged Goreb whose transformation issued in the free printing of hundreds of thousands of images and books. Okay. So dear listener, I hope you agree with me that
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this is better evidenced than the resurrection. I I hope you agree with me about that. Right. Okay. Okay. So then let's get to the vindicatory implications. Let's see if we can like drive the knife in and make you uh
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uncomfortable. Let's see if that cuz you know when I learned things like this as a non-atholic I was very uncomfortable. The cognitive dissonance mounted and mounted and mounted. And that's what I'm trying to do in this part of the video. So let's get to the
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vindicator implications. And the cognitive dissonance should not just apply to naturalists and atheists and skeptics. It should apply to Orthodox and Protestants and non-atholics as we'll see. Okay, so God seems really excited about putting his miraculous stamp of approval on our Lady of
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Suania's apparitions to Mirina Nazour, gracing Mirna with a holy character and overwhelming and extremely well- evidence miraculous signs. When we examine the content of the revelations given to me from Christ and the Virgin, they are utterly suffused with Christian
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and Catholic distinctives which note well were taken down immediately during the end of her ecstasies. First Nine Christianity. Obviously, of course, supernaturally reduplicating the passion wounds of Christ strongly probabilifies Christianity. But it gets even better.
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At the fifth apparition on March 24th, 1983, MNA recited the Nyine creed with the Virgin on the Virgin's initiative.
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The apparition therefore professes the faith of Na Constantinople and professes it as a member of the believing church rather than as its object. The Virgin also asked to be signed with a cross on her own forehead. The rosary. At the
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same apparition, the Virgin was holding a rosary, and Mirna said under questioning that the oil began when the rosary's cross touched her hands. Four months later, the apparition was once again carrying a rosary and transmitted oil to Mirna through it. The rosary is
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distinctively Catholic in origin and substance and involves saintly intercession like pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Pray for us, oh holy mother of God. It involves high marology. Hail Mary, mother of God, hail holy queen, mother
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of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. And meditations on mysteries like the assumption and coronation of Mary. So if you don't believe in those, you're in trouble. The deity of Christ, Christ said to me, "I am the beginning
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and the end. I am truth, freedom, and peace." On May 31st, 1984, on the vigil of Mary's nativity, September 7th, 1985, out of a light so strong she could not see afterwards, Christ said, "I am the creator. I created her so that she could
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create me." Followed by the triple title, daughter of the father, mother of God, spouse of the spirit. One sentence from Christ here gives us the pre-existence and creative agency of the one born of Mary, the reality of his
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human generation from her, and theotocos, right? that she's the mother of God. If you don't accept that Mary is the mother of God, you're in trouble.
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Participatory redemptive suffering. Christ also told me on November 26th, 1985 that I was crucified out of love for all of you. I want you to take up your cross and carry it for my sake. He who participates in my suffering, I
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shall make him participate in my glory. There is no salvation for the soul except through the cross. Christ's vocabulary in the apparitions is that of satisfaction and of merit applied to others. as he says in November 26th, 1985 to her, I shall give you from my
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wounds enough to redeem the debts of sinners. Then on November 26th, 1986, Christ told her, "I want to renew my passion and I want you to accomplish your mission." And he also said, "For each word of prayer, I shall spill a
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drop of my blood on one of those sinners." One year later, on November 26th, 1987, Christ tells Mir that by uniting her heart with Christs, she will save suffering souls. Okay, so this manifestly vindicates Catholic theology of offering up your sufferings to God as
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sacrificial reparations for sin that are numerically distinct from but united to and wholly deriving their efficacy and merits from Christ's passion. And you know, I can already hear the Protestants saying, "Oh, but there was only one sacrifice for sin." Like read Hebrews,
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right? Haven't you read Hebrews? But maybe, just maybe, Christ is going out of his way to refute your heretical, novel, private interpretation of Hebrews, contradicting the perennial understanding of the church through manifest miraculous signs. Maybe, just maybe, like the Pharisees, you're
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asserting your own private interpretation of revelation over and against the obvious work of God. It vindicates purgatory and prayer for the dead. Marinite priest, Reverend Dr.
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George L. Khali reports that the virgin message of March 24th 1983 ends pray for the inhabitants of purgatory and earth me spontaneous cry under the stigmata in 1987 was oh Jesus have mercy on the dead the message of March 24th which
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explicitly recommended praying for the inhabitants of purgatory came when Dr. Jamil Margie, a recent convert from atheism, was standing in Mirina's living room asking Father Mali why Catholics pray for the dead. Riyad Neeshmi signed testimony describes praying for an ant
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whose death had every appearance of suicide, asking the virgin for a sign as to whether she deserved heaven and then finding oil flowing from both wrapped images and in the small hours from Mina's hands for 40 minutes offered for
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the repose of that soul. Okay, so we got purgatory prayer for the dead like participatory vicarious satisfaction for sin, the deity, the deity of Christ, the rosary, the theotocos nine Christianity.
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Another message from Mary to Mirna supports the perpetual virginity of Mary. Mary says, "My heart has been consumed on my only son and it won't be consumed on all my children." You know, like referring to us. And so the fact
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that Christ is her only son at least supports the perpetual virginity because the main argument against perpetual virginity namely the alleged fact it's not actually a fact this is fake but the alleged fact that scripture describes Jesus as having brothers the atonement
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before a crowd including Muslims and delivered in a Muslim majority capital Christ told me that he who announces him is saved and he who does not announce him his faith is vain. Then he said your sins are forgiven because you look
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towards me. 26th of November 1986, Christ told her in Mod in July 1987, "Father, through the merits of your beloved son's wounds, save us." Christianity is true, my guys.
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Christianity is true. So is Catholicism, but Christianity is true. And you Orthodox listen up. Well, you should have listened up with the purgatory thing. But there's also a Petrian importance in the call to unity. During the ecstasy of November 26th, 1989, the
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Virgin Mary said, "My children, Jesus told Peter, you are the rock, and upon it I shall build my church. As for me, I tell you now, you are the hearts in which Jesus will build his unicity. I want you to devote your prayers to peace
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from now until the commemoration of the resurrection feast. Okay. So Mary is here identifying Peter as the rock of Matthew 16 and associates Matthew 16 with the call to unity. H this is very surprising under Eastern or oriental
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orthodoxy but utterly expected under Catholicism. And it's also exceedingly surprising given Eastern oriental Orthodoxy that in a country where the overwhelming majority of Christians were Eastern Orthodox, those called by name to receive and steward the call to church unity were exclusively Catholic.
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H it's also notable that at the time the messages were delivered, the Syriak Orthodox Church was nearest among all the Eastern Oriental Orthodox churches to full communion with Rome. In the 1970s and 1980s, the Syriak Orthodox Church unilaterally entered into
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ecumenical dialogue with the Latin church against the wishes of the other Eastern churches. Ultimately, ecumenical dialogue between Roman Catholics and Sriak Orthodox slowed because non-Sriak Orthodox hierarchs objected. It's almost as though the Orthodox are the ones that are objecting to what the Virgin is
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asking for. Hm. By contrast, it is utterly unsurprising given Catholicism that God would entrust the call to church unity to Eastern Catholics in a country whose national church was closest among all the Eastern churches to full communion with Rome and then to
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like cite Matthew 16 and Peter being the rock on which a church was built in that context. Come on guys, you got to submit to Rome, my friends. You got to submit to Rome. Eucharistic theology. During the ecstasy of November 26th, 2001,
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Christ said, "The acts of adoration, meditation, thanksgiving, and spiritual guidance rejoice me. These, however, can only be perfected when you are united at the altar. I am giving you my body and my blood as a token of my faithfulness
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and my love. Accept from me this sacrament with trust and faith, for it will comfort you, grant you strength and wisdom, and promote the growth of grace in you." This not only confirms that the Eucharist is the body and blood of
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Christ, but also that the Eucharist perfects Christian unity and worship. Okay, so like summary of Mirina Nazour.
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Dude, insane quantities of oil are appearing spontaneously from Mirina Nazour's hands, fingers, neck, face, chest, forehead, and eyes, including during an adversarial Syrian state investigation, and sometimes for extended periods in front of groups of witnesses, sometimes enough to annoy
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5,000 people in succession. Oil is spontaneously and repeatedly exuding from a cheap paper icon that was disassembled without any trace of a hidden reservoir and which continues exuding inside a sealed container and whose reproduction spontaneously exude oil hundreds or thousands of miles away
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from Mirina with the oil behaving radically unlike ordinary oil. I mean, the naturalist has basically forced upon an exceedingly baroque conspiracy involving intelligence officers, physicians, medical biologists, neurologists priests bishops atheists Muslims Marxists laboratory personnel, strangers producing their own
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holy cards, sealed containers, distant households, and gallons upon gallons upon gallons of olive oil. On multiple occasions, wounds on her forehead, hands, feet, and side are seen to open spontaneously in front of groups of witnesses with nobody touching her.
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where the witnesses to her stigmatizations include trained observers like medical biologists and physicians and neurologists, some of whom literally palpate her wounds.
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Meanwhile, her ecstasies involve tachi cardia, altered blood pressure, rigidity, abolished reflexes, coral insensitivity, anomalous pupilary responses, and complete indifference to painful stimulation, including hard pinching, manipulation of the eyeballs, and even a knife blade inserted beneath a fingernail. Followed by the immediate
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return of pain and normaly once ecstasies end. Oh, and then this family is just like consistently refusing money, incurring financial losses, letting the sick and invalid sleep on their beds. They're surrendering their privacy. They're freely distributing materials. The people involved in this
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are like sending back money to people who try to give them money. They're they're all just like super obedient or their ecclesiastical superheroes.
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They're praying all the time and on and on and on. I know, I know you still want to play the bizarre string of coincidences card or the massive conspiracy card, but trust me, my friend, your cognitive dissonance will
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only start piling and piling as I go through the other evidence. And remember, we're only two subsections in the saintly miracles part of the video, my guys. Okay, let's go to Adam Blly stigmatist. Here is Adam Bllye. Adam
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Bllye has a master's degree in adult clinical psychology from Penn State and has worked in forensic psychological services. He also has a lentia in canon law and comp and and completed substantial PhD work in psychology before leaving his PhD and dedicating
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his life to deliverance ministry. In his book, The Catholic Guide to Miracles, he details his own direct eyewitness observations of a contemporary stigmatist or what he calls a stigmatic.
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I think I I don't know which of those is correct. In what follows, I'll quote directly from his book. I also privately interviewed Adam about this case. He confirmed that he personally witnessed almost every Thursday and Friday over
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the course of about a year everything he describes in the following excerpts and much more regarding the stigmatist. For example, he testifies to seeing massive welts and scourge wounds spontaneously appear, not self-inflicted and out of thin air. He also attests to witnessing
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the stigmatist spontaneously start sweating blood on Thursday evenings before she reenacts Christ's passion and death. He testifies to the odor of sanctity and much more as you'll see.
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The reason he saw this every week for a whole year is that, as you'll soon gather, the experience is pretty difficult for the stigmatist. So, she needs someone to kind of be there for her through the suffering. It's also
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worth noting that Adam is extremely reserved, quiet, serious, and utterly unostentious. The account of the book also evinces a significant degree of caution and care. Having interviewed him myself and having seen a ton of his YouTube videos, as well as having read
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his books and being a very good friends with someone who has hung out with him in person, he is clearly disinterested in fame, fortune, publicity, and shock value, and he has every indication of honesty. And it's exceptionally difficult to be honestly mistaken about
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what he testifies to. So, here are some selected excerpts from his book. In the course of my work, I've had the occasion to investigate some claims of miracles.
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One of these was a potential case of a stigmata that I was able to observe over many weeks, and he intentionally tries to give not many identifying details about the case. It is very important to understand that these observations and
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experiences are not revealed truth to which you must ascend. Any claimed mystical experience is private revelation at best, and human misunderstanding or deception at worst.
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Private revelation means that a person receives some information directly from God and not through the teaching function of the church. No one is required by faith to believe private revelation, even from the saints. Some of the information from this case is
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presented as an example of what seems to be a contemporary stigmatic who has been observed by a number of priests and lay people who witnessed the various drama themselves and found them compelling. I do not claim that this is a genuine case
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of stigmata only that these are the facts known so far. From here on though, for the sake of simplicity, I will refer to this as a case of stigmata and the person as the stigmatic. To be clear, the stigmatic does not want to be known
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in any way. The last thing she wants is anyone knowing who she is. The stigmatic's first experience was unexpected and shocking to her. Nothing like this had ever happened before. She was at a cathedral and a priest observed
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the initial manifestation which was a hole cleared through the palm of her left hand. She did not injure herself.
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There was no workplace accident and the wound never got infected. She was not aware of stigmata cases and did not understand what was happening. The wound in her hand closed and healed in a few days which is incredibly fast. The next
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Thursday, her left hand began to hurt and the skin and the centers of her palms in the back of her hand became bumpy and white. She felt a compulsion to pace after sunset on Thursday, not to eat anything and to keep pacing until
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dawn. Then she experienced a number of bodily pains until noon on Friday followed by the intense pain in her hands and her feet. She had difficulty breathing for about two or three hours and then it stopped. She went to medical
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doctors trying to find out what was wrong with her and several specialists tried to diagnose and treat her condition. The folder of medical test and reports became over an inch thick.
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No medical treatment seemed to affect the experience. No change of medication or therapy for potential mental illness changed the thing. Eventually, she started to give up seeking answers. Wore glove and lived with it. Over the years, she's had an interior sense of what was
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happening, but also a powerful urge to keep that interior reality secret. She felt self-conscious about it and felt that God did not want her to share what was happening with anyone. At the same time, she, her family, and her doctors
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were trying to make sense of it all. As the years progressed, the physical pain and wounds would change. Sometimes it was just one hand that would form a wound and bleed. Other times it would be mostly her feet. Sometimes her head
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would be very painful and small wounds would appear all around it like a crown.
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More recently, her right shoulder sometimes hurts deeply and a large bruise forms over it. And a painful 2-in line appears in her side. When she recently had a body scan to check for cancerous tumors, the doctor commented that she must have been impaled in the
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side when she was younger because of the scar tissue from a side wound in her body. She has never had an injury to her side. What's interesting is you like the changing morphology here kind of resembles uh the changing morphology of
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some of the other stigmatists that we've we've noted. Um, it's like a kind of undesigned coincidence between the cases. But anyway, let's continue. The stigmatic experiences aren't the same each week, but they are basically consistent. There is some variation in
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what is emphasized, but the story is always the same. The experience starts on Thursday afternoon with a feeling of apprehension. As Sunset gets closer, she experiences an urge to get to a safe and secluded place to walk back and forth.
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She starts to become aware of Jesus and what he is doing, that he's being marched along forcefully by a number of men. Okay, so she kind of has these mystical experiences along with the various externally visible phenomena that uh Adam Blly attests to. Then she
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experiences the stinging cuts of wet palms being lashed against his skin by onlookers. Perhaps the same people who had just welcomed him into the temple by placing similar palms before him. As this happens, what look like three or
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4in paper cuts appear on the stigmatic's arms and legs. These cause her to gasp in pain. Then a wagon that is carrying large clay jars crosses their path. The wagon stops and the driver whips Jesus across the legs with a horse whip. This
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causes a scream of pain from the stigmatic and throws her to the ground. Large 6 to 8 in welts rise across both legs. These welts are so severe that 7 days later when the story starts again, they are still visible. Walking resumes
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shortly thereafter. The stigmatic must pace while Jesus walks in the narrative that they are experiencing. This becomes labored as the feet are increasingly swollen and in pain from the chains and the rough road. Soon they arrive at the
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cell under Caiaphas's house. So this is still Thursday evening. The stigmatic feels compelled to pace exactly 10 paces, turn and pace 10 paces back. In the narrative, Jesus is barefoot and still dragging heavy chains. He is not allowed to drink any water all night.
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And the stigmatic becomes very thirsty no matter how much water she drinks. by guards. If he stops, he is whipped with a leather strap or poked with a long thin spear of wood. Usually once during the night for entertainment, the guard
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whips the strap around his neck and chokes him to the point of passing out.
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The stigmatic experiences this literally and is choked until she collapses. As time goes on, he as well as a stigmatic gets more and more thirsty. There's a bucket in the cell that inmates use to relieve themselves, but there's no
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water. He finds a few precious drops of water seeping through the wall or the floor. As this force march goes on, the stigmatic will usually vomit once or twice from the experience of Christ's dehydration and pain. She gets more and
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more detached, as she puts it, feeling as if she is more there than here. She knows she is pacing in the normal room, but she also, to some extent, sees the stone walls and floor. She describes this as feeling somewhat like an out-of-
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body experience. Some weeks, the stigmatic is thrown forcefully to the floor once or twice during the night.
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This is always toward a soft piece of furniture, so there's no danger of being hurt. When observed, her body seems to be genuinely, roughly, randomly thrown.
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There is no obvious force that she's applying to toss herself across the room, nor does it seem controlled by her in any way. During one of the moments, when he is allowed to rest on the floor, Jesus prays out loud to the Father to
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forgive the men who are tormenting him. The stigmatic hears Jesus praying for them in Aramaic, but has an internal understanding of what the words mean.
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The stigmatic knows only English. There are weeks where the stigmatic speaks in what sounds like Aramaic at this point in the narrative, but when questioned later, she doesn't recall doing so. By morning, the shift of guards has changed
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and Jesus is brought out of the cell. Jesus is then walked to the building where Pontius Pilate lives and works and is brought into an area of the building where Jews normally are not allowed.
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Pilate, finally ready, is annoyed at being bothered with this and the Jews irritate him. He just wants to get it over with and he sends Jesus off to be crucified. The stigmatic next experiences the first of the even more
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excruciating pain of wounds, the scourging. She feels compelled to go to a banister or another part of the house where she can hold on to something. She abruptly screams and recoils from blows.
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After about 10 minutes, she's driven to her knees with her hands still holding on. Her body shakes and quivers as she experiences the torture Jesus endured.
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This experience goes on for some time with deep sobbing in pain between screams. Finally, they release his hands and she is thrown to the floor. Some weeks very ugly bruises and cuts appear across her back as the blows are
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delivered. The scourging covered everywhere on his body. His face and his lips are broken open. He could taste the metal from the implements. Usually from this point forward, the stigmatic's left eye is held closed as it was injured in
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the scourging. She cannot see out of it until the passion story ends. She describes that it feels swollen shut and that too much blood has run into it. A Marine veteran friend of the stigmatic witnessed these scourging wounds appear
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once and said they were worse than those of torture victims in war. After the scourging, the scent of flowers emanating from wounds usually becomes very pronounced. It seems to be strongest around the head, but clearly also comes from the hands and feet. This
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scent fills the house. When a priest friend came to say mass one Friday, he noted the whole house smelled like a florist shop. Interestingly, the stigmatic cannot smell this aroma at all. She was surprised when other people commented on it and was initially very
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embarrassed. Same thing happened with Padre Peio, by the way. Cool and design quincent. Like he he couldn't smell his odor of sanctity, but others could.
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There's then another short period of waiting. During this, the stigmatic says the Romans are searching for the largest cross beam to make him drag. While they laugh, the stigmatic experiences that the Romans left the vertical poles in place and made the condemned drag to the
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cross only the cross beam that matched his arms. The stigmatic then starts pacing again, this time using as much space as possible, not just 10 paces at a time. This walking goes on for about 40 minutes with two collapses. She sees
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Simon ofSirene help Jesus by carrying the cross beam for a time. The stigmatic says that Simon was very scared that the Romans would accidentally crucify him as they were already drinking. The stigmatic has not yet experienced Veronica during these episodes, but she
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hopes to someday. As this painful walking goes on, the stigmatic says many times, "We're almost there." One week, she also said, "We're almost there. I'm ready." Once they arrive at Golgtha, the stigmatic sits for about 15 minutes. She
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says that she can hear other men being nailed in their screams. At this point, the stigmatic lies on the floor. Her right hand is pulled out to the side, and she lets out a long, heartbreaking scream of pain. Her body contorts with
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it, but her right hand seems fixed in space. As she gasps, her left hand goes out and there is another guttural scream of pain. Now she experiences the guards is showing Jesus the spike they will use on his feet. She says it is the biggest
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nail she has ever seen and that she cannot believe that it can be driven through feet. Then the worst scream of pain comes as one foot is held on top of the other. After the nailing, the stigmatic's hands become very cold to
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the touch and her fingers turn pale white. So he's again like he's he's describing this like exceedingly complex multimodal experience that he's having that a bunch of other people have seen.
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There are tons of these like external manifestations that mental illness doesn't like doesn't make six or 8 in lash wounds spontaneously appear in your body or make them like smell like roses and then have like the the beautiful
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fragrant scent fill the entire room or to be thrown about without being propelled by anything or to like suddenly be fluent in Aramaic. Then when things already seem so unbelievably cruel, they get worse. The stigmatic is croaking and gasping for air. She starts
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to move her legs as if she is pushing up in order to breathe. She mutters, "I can't breathe. I can't breathe." After about 15 minutes of this, she tries to lift her head and look at the people Jesus sees. She explains that the crown
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of thorns is placed such that it forces her head down. If she lifts her head, it forces the thorns deeper into the soft skin at the back of her neck. Jesus struggles to breathe for some time, doing little more. After a while, he
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forces his head up again and looks. He sees Thaddius and Barnabas toward the back of the crowd, looking at him. The stigmatic says that Barnabas has a sword and they look as if they want to take action, but they cannot. There are too
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many guards. Jesus feels so alone on the cross. He feels the loss of his friends, seeing how many have abandoned him. This is the worst part of his pain.
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Abandonment. Abandonment is the worst part of his pain. There are a number of difficult details about the suffering of Jesus at this point. The stigmatic describes how the rough wood of the cross puts large splinters into his back
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when he pushes up with his legs to breathe. She describes the biting insects that sting his flesh, which is torn so severely in places that the insects enter one wound and exit through another. As more blood is lost, Jesus
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experiences seizures as his brain is starred for oxygen. The stigmatic seizes uh and later describes that it felt as if her hands would be torn from the nails by the writhing. After this, Christ's vision starts to go dark. The
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stigmatic says that his feet and legs are numb now, but this is a relief because he can no longer feel the large spike through his feet, but also he cannot push up with his legs anymore. He starts to breathe by contracting his
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stomach muscles, but it does not work well. The stigmatic gasps that she cannot get enough air. If Jesus passes out, the guards viciously poke a sharp stick between specific lower ribs to cause maximum pain, but not threaten life. They want him awake and
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experiencing as much pain as possible. She feels Christ's loneliness even more toward the end. In the last moment, she feels his body panic as he cannot breathe, and she feels his fear. She then stops breathing for a minute or so.
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Internally, she feels him die, and suddenly, he just isn't there anymore. She has a feeling during this that she is so with him and so little in the real world that she will be taken with him when he dies that she will die also.
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Then she wakes up completely herself back to normal. This is the basic experience the stigmatic has endured every week for the last 15 years plus some additional holy days. Outside of these two days a week she has lived a
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normal life of raising children, taking care of parents and just living life. There is an interesting kota that occurred after one week's passion experience. The stigmatic has no training in ancient languages or any language at all besides English. During
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the passion, I heard her say some words that sounded like Aramaic, something like abun demaya. I did not know what they meant, but I wondered if it might be the Our Father. After everything was over, I played a recording of the prayer
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Speaker A
for the stigmatic. She was immediately able to sing the prayer along with the recording, but then she frowned and stopped. She said there was something off about it, something wrong. I looked more closely and discovered that I'd played a recording of the prayer in
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Speaker A
Syrian Aramaic, which is slightly different from Jewish Aramaic. I found a Jewish Aramaic recording, and she was able to sing along with all the words. I then looked up the prayer written out in Jewish Aramaic and showed it to the
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stigmatic. The first words were abuna nescaladashmach. I struggled to say them and failed. But when she looked at them, she immediately pronounced them fluently. I checked her pronunciation against the recording again and it was correct. The stigmatic had heard Jesus say the spirit in the
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passion vision so many times that it had become part of her. So this doesn't need much commentary.
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Speaker A
I mean the only remotely plausible naturalistic explanation here is that Adam Blie is just a liar, right? He's just lying. There's no plausible way that you're there's no plausible way that you're honestly mistaken about seeing all these phenomena and
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Speaker A
extensively documenting them every single Thursday and Friday in totally perceptually conducive circumstances for about a year and there being other people who see exactly the same sort of thing. We're talking repeated multimodal experiences often involving different people of manifestly naturally
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impossible phenomena like 8 in lashwin spontaneously appearing on the skin of a stigmatist where it is visibly obvious to those present that they're not self-inflicted and instead arise out of thin air or spontaneously sweating blood on Thursday evening which BL reported to
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me in in my in an interview. All in combination with the spontaneous emission of a beautiful fragrance from her wounds that fills her house with a floral scent fills the house which just happens to coincide with the most insane
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string of vivid multimodal mystical experiences that occur on a repeated predictable schedule and follow the same pattern which is totally scientifically unprecedented by the way and which happen to grant her linguistic abilities of speaking Jewish Aramaic even though
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she knows only English and which are accompanied by physiological changes not under her control like extremities becoming cold and white seizuring being thrown around repeated bouts of vomiting choking and gasping for air and then immediately afterwards being completely
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normal and able to perform all the normal functions of her state in life as a parent. If the content if the content of BL's report is true, naturalism and non-Christianity are completely cooked, right? And I also think like you know
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Protestantism is going to have a pretty hard time explaining this in particular as well because this she's like a victim soul, right? Um but anyway, we'll get to that. And that's like super tied up with like the Catholic theology of like
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Speaker A
participatory redemptive suffering and like vicarious satisfaction and whatnot. So like okay, what are you guys to do?
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Speaker A
You've got to deny the content, right? Because if the content is true, your view is false, right? So you've got to deny the content. But the content is like over extremely difficult to be wrong about, right? Like these are
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repeated interactions in totally perceptually circumstances in highly intimate settings observed by a variety of people spanning between 12 and 24 hours on each occasion. This is not like, oh yeah, I glimpsed a cloud and it kind of looked like uh it kind of, you
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Speaker A
know, like Jesus and toast or something like no, that's not what we're talking about. And this happening every single Thursday and Friday as well as some holy days of obligation for 15 years for the stigmatist and about a whole year for bl
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observations. No, the honest mistake hypothesis does not look particularly credible. So, the naturalists can hear just basically like divine from the armchair that somebody they never met as a blatant liar. And this despite the fact that he's a trained observer, a
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master's degree in clinical psychology, put plus work in forensic psychological services would ordinarily involve systematic training and interviewing, behavioral observation, psychopathology, assessing reports, distinguishing potentially significant psychological features from ordinary ones. He enjoys every appearance of credibility with his
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formal training and ample media appearances backing it up. He presented to me and my good friend who hung out with him in person as highly reputable, careful, honest, humble. He writes in an extremely cautious and unostentious way, even noting in his chapter that it's
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dangerous to rely on private revelation alone because it can lead to cult personality. That's a little bit that I left out, but he he noted that. Like I could go on, but like I hope you're getting to like feel even a fraction of
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Speaker A
the cognitive dissonance that I experienced when I interviewed him about this case. And there are also striking convergences between the stigmatists that I want to mention here, right?
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wounds that change in their morphology over time, the odor of sanctity filling entire spaces, complex and repeated multimmodal experiences of Christ and Mary, sometimes following predictable schedules, and so on. But Adam Ble in his book, A Catholic Guide to Miracles,
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describes a case of a contemporary stigmatist that he had the the privilege of being with and consoling over the course of a year, every single Thursday and Friday. And this person would basically just like supernaturally relive uh kind of imaginatively, but also
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Speaker A
physically Christ's passion. Um, but also a lot of similar things that were true of Padre Bio were like described in Adam's stigmatase like the odor of sanctity. Um, like people would just be in the house and the house would
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just smell like a floral shock. Adam Blight attested to just seeing in totally perceptually conducive circumstances like 6-in lash wounds just spontaneously appear almost out of thin air on the stigmatic when she was undergoing these supernatural reduplications of Christ's passion. Um,
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Speaker A
I almost I almost can't possibly believe that Adam Blie is honestly mistaken about what he describes. Is he honestly mistaken about over the course of a year every single Thursday and Friday consoling and being with this person who
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Speaker A
is like sweating blood who has this odor of sanctity who is like spontaneously forming lash wounds all over the person who's like speaking Aramaic and like is all these things like this is not something that you're honestly mistaken about it like I just
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Speaker A
can't get there but then I would have to just attribute to him like Adam Bllye I have no independent evidence for this but he's a blatant liar or maybe like he's somehow just like confabulating on cosmic proportions.
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Speaker A
Like it's really hard to get myself into that headsp space. Uh especially when there are crazy undesigned coincidences between Padre Pio's case and this case and we have like tons of independent evidence for the Padre Pio case. Also,
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Speaker A
these certainly aren't the only cases of well-evinced stigmatists throughout church history or even in the 20th century alone. I I could have gone on, but I think these suffice. Um, I also could have covered much more evidence concerning, you know, Padre Peio and Ma
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Speaker A
Nazour. I hope I've given you a sense of the evidence. Now, um, again, like this, the point is to be like mutually corroborative and to make a cumulative case here. It's not like I think that, you know, this one testimony from Adam
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Bllye uh like disproves naturalism or something. No, like you know if if I came to this anticcedently as like a super hardcore convinced naturalist and I only had Adam Bl's single testimony then you know like okay I I could see
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Speaker A
myself saying okay yeah like I'll just I'll just modus tones you bro like okay you know unfortunately you are a liar and I can just somehow divine that from the armchair from my like implausible arguments for naturalism even though like one of the one of the
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premises of of a lot of like one of the best arguments of naturalism is that like oh it's similar to theism and it explains the data equally well, but then like doesn't seem like you're explaining this data equally well, my friend. Like
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Speaker A
the very thing that you're trying to explain away in this case and it's kind of causing some cognitive dissonance is like one of the things you don't explain equally well. So like the very arguments that you're using to support your
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Speaker A
naturalism seem like um to to kind of support that modus toll and seem kind of like illicit in this context. Anyway, so again, like I'm not saying that, oh, this one case is like so overwhelmingly strong because again, it's one testimony
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Speaker A
and I grant like, yeah, people can make things up and there can be crazy insane testimonial reports to things that just are made up. So, listen, I grant that, right? That's why I went through, you know, firstly, Padre Peio and Mazur
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Speaker A
first because they're basically going to have to have like the most insane conspiracy ever. And of course, you know, in those cases, you got like photographic and videographic evidence and whatnot and like doctors and whatnot, but like again,
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Speaker A
mutually corroborative and like I don't know, at the very least I wanted to include this because I felt at least like I felt the cognitive dissonance having to interview Adam Bllye and like oh man like I'm just staring this guy in
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Speaker A
the face and he seems so honest and like he's got all the like all the he seems like he's a credible individual and like I'm just having to say that he he's just such a blatant liar even even though
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Speaker A
like he you know He he he thinks lying is a sin. He's a super devout Catholic.
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Speaker A
But anyway, um as for vindicatory implications of Adam Blly stigmatism, we once again here have like manifest vindication of literally participating in Christ's redemptive suffering and offering up one's suffering to God as a sacrifice. Adam Bllye has participated
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in between 1,500 and 2,000 exorcisms. And to quote him, there's even been a crossover to the work I do in exorcism related to this case. The demons and Satan have railed during exorcisms that this stigmatic must be stopped. Uh that
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Speaker A
she will create too many priestly vocations in the world through offering her suffering. As with other stigmatists, God is here of vindicating Catholic theology of sacrifices offered to God that are numerically distinct from Christ's passion, but wholly derive
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their advocacy from Christ's passion to be meritorious causes of grace. Okay, onwards we march to St. Joseph of Certino. So, Yale historian Dr. Carlos in his excellent book, They Flew, a history of the impossible combs through the extensive eyewitness testimonies for
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Speaker A
St. Joseph Cupertino's ecstatic flights and levitations as well as those of St. Theresa of Avala. Here I'll focus only on St. Joseph Aertino who lived from6003 to 1663. He was an Italian Franciscan frier and priest known for his extreme
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Speaker A
simplicity, aeticism, and mystical flights and levitations. His mystical flights and levitations were witnessed repeatedly by clergy, lay people, nobles, church authorities, non-atholic witnesses who converted afterwards, etc.
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So, I'll walk you through the case for St. Joseph of Cubertino's flights and levitations during uh drawing from chapters three and four of Carlos Iris They Flew. You can um I mean, if you want, you can like pick up his book and
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Speaker A
see which exact sources that I that he draws from when I make the various claims and what follows. But the various claims what follows I'm drawing on just like what he says right and I should note that in his capacity as a
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Speaker A
professional historian does not positively claim that the historical evidence shows that St. Joseph flew.
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Okay, I should I I should mention that but once you examine the evidence you'll see that naturalists should be pretty uncomfortable especially having already posited a bizarre string of coincidences or conspiracies for the other three stigmatists. Also, by the way, much of
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Speaker A
what follows draws either directly from or paraphrases Ira's book, though I've also added my own commentary at some points as well. So um any mistakes are attributable to me uh and anything good should be attributed to a brief word at
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Speaker A
the outset. I think the testimonial evidence here is like overwhelming or at least very very strong. Um but St.
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Speaker A
Joseph is not like a central plank in my miraculous case. Um I include it because it reinforces all the other data as yet another insane conspiracy or string of massive coincidences that the naturalists would have to posit to
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Speaker A
explain away all the evidence. I do however think that you know cases where there's photographic or videographic evidence, medical documentation and blinded laboratory analyses are evidentially stronger. So um cases that we've already seen and cases that we'll you know get into in the next
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subsection. So again this is not like the strongest consideration that I'm going to wield. The point is to build a cumulative case and to make you very uncomfortable. It's the evidential force of all the cases together which is
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overwhelming as you'll see at the end. Um, even if you want to desperately explain away any particular case as an insane conspiracy, the conspiracy of conspiracies that naturalists and non-atholics are required to posit is just unbelievable. So, the testimonial
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evidence for St. Joseph's flights and levitations is insane in terms of the quantity and relative proximity to the testimony, its diversity, the existence of named, socially prominent and sometimes antically unsympathetic or non-atholic witnesses, the public and uncontrolled nature of the circumstances
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of many of the incidents, the extraordinary physical specificity of the reports, the scrutiny Joseph underwent from hostile or cautious ecclesiastical authorities, Joseph's own aversion to his notoriety, and uh the remarkable consistency reports extending across roughly 35 years. And we're not
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Speaker A
talking only about legends recorded centuries afterwards. That's not what we're talking about. We have voluminous documentation from the beatatification and canonization process that were conducted mostly between 1664 and 1995 when many people who had known Joseph personally were still alive. Processi,
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Speaker A
by the way, those are formal ecclesiastical judicial investigations where sworn testimony under oath is taken concerning the reputation of a puditive saint and any alleged miracles associated with them. The first episcal inquiries began in March 1664, only about 6 months after
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Joseph's death in September 1663. An apostolic inquiry authorized from Rome followed four years later in April 1668.
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Speaker A
So the core evidential tradition was subjected to formal collection while a substantial eyewitness generation remained alive. Additionally, the earest major biography was written by um Robert Nudo, a Franciscan who knew Joseph personally and served as his confessor at Aisi. Nudy published the biography
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Speaker A
only 15 years after Joseph's death. So let's begin with the sheer scale of the testimony. Joseph's aerial feats were not reported to have occurred only a few times or under obscure conditions.
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Speaker A
Witnesses at Certain alone, both lay and clerical, gave the beatatification inquiry reports of more than 70 separate levitations, not counting Joseph's nearly daily hovering ecstatic elevations during mass, which could continue for as long as 2 hours. Pretty hard to be honestly mistaken about
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elevations on a daily basis, let alone elevations into the air for 2 hours. The reports of eyewitnesses are often narrated with the prefuncter seriousness that one might expect from a police report. The scale becomes even more striking at Aisi. The Aisi batification
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Speaker A
inquiry alone contains 800 folios devoted to Joseph's transises raptures and levitations. We have the contemporaneous diary of Abbott Archangelo Rosem who reported Joseph's frequent mystical exases too. So notice we have institutional records, hundreds of pages of folios including sworn
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Speaker A
eyewitness testimony, a contemporaneous diary, and an early biography written by a man who had personally known and extensively interacted with St. Joseph.
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Speaker A
The reports also stretch across an extraordinary time span. St. Joseph's first public levitation happened on October 4th, 1630 during a procession at Certino before a cloud of clergy and towns people. He rose up off the ground and remained suspended above them.
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Speaker A
Thereafter, the flights reportedly continued until the last weeks of his life in 1663. Essentially the same phenomena reported indoors, outdoors by people of radically different social positions under different lighting and circumstances across approximately 35 years. In light of the overwhelming
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testimonial evidence from direct eyewitnesses formally collected soon after his death, together with contemporary diary material, misperception is not a credible explanation in the slightest. Let's now consider the diversity of reports. The witnesses to St. Joseph's flights and levitations issued from basically every
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Speaker A
social boundary. Shepherd and pope, milkmaid and nun, peasant and prince, coachman and duke, page and ambassador.
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Speaker A
Among those who saw St. Joseph were numerous cardinals and high-ranking nobles. Secular visitors included Polish princes and nobles, members of Austrian and Italian ruling families, and royal prince John Casemir of Poland. High clergy and nobility testified that they
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Speaker A
had beheld his levitations firsthand. The testimonies are also detailed, sometimes taking note of the precise behavior of Joseph's clothes during the levitations. Cardinal Lorenzo Deloreia Bronati was struck not merely that Joseph rose into the air, but that despite Joseph's sudden and eccentric
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movements, his clothing remained perfectly arranged. Broncotti concluded in explicitly first-p person language that he judged it to be humanly impossible. Other reports describe his body entering rigid positions while his garments did not flat, fall, or become disordered in the manner one might
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expect from rapid bodily movement. Notes that numerous testimonies in the beatatification process mention this feature. Duke Johan Friedrich of Brownig Lunenberg, a Lutheran ruler descended from the Saxon princes who had championed Martin Luther, was another eyewitness. He arrived at Aisi in 1649,
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Speaker A
accompanied by two noble companions. Joseph was not informed that they had entered the chapel. At mass, Joseph suddenly cried out and flew roughly five paces backward while remaining in a kneeling posture, then returned through the air to the altar. The Duke returned
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from mass the next day. Joseph again levitated, this time remaining above the altar for approximately 15 minutes. One of Johan Frederick's Lutheran companions was deeply disturbed and exclaimed that at home his mind had been peaceful, but now he was afflicted by scruples of
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Speaker A
conscience and was said to have converted to Catholicism two years later. Johan Friedrich himself also converted to Catholicism after seeing Joseph's flight. Although our notes that there's some evidence that he was leaning toward Catholicism before witnessing the temporally extended
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levitation, you know, like apparently those pushed him over the edge. At Osmo, where Joseph spent his final six years under severe restrictions, Father Eugenio Makatelli was one of the friars permitted to access him. Makatelli later declared, "With my own eyes, I have seen
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Speaker A
his ecstasies thousands of times in Joseph's cell." The eyewitness accounts are also strikingly convergent.
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Speaker A
Different witnesses, separated by geography, social position, and time, report a recurring cluster of characteristics: sudden shrieking, rigid ecstatic posture, upward or horizontal movement, backward flight, suspension for prolonged periods, insensitivity of physical stimuli, resumption of uninterrupted activity, and unusual
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Speaker A
details about his clothing. There was also physical interaction with St. Joseph on the part of eyewitnesses making hallucinations and misperceptions especially unlikely. And exactly how unlikely is going to be a function of like the exact date of when this was
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Speaker A
recorded, how long after the fact, how many testimonies there are, you know, etc. You're just going to have to see Carlos's book for that. At Certino, while he was suspended at the altar, people moved around him to obtain
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Speaker A
different viewing angles. Some touched, prodded, pushed or jabbed him, moved his arms, poked his open eyes, pricricked him with needles, and brought candle flames to his skin. Numerous eyewitness reports agree that Joseph remained entirely unresponsive. The flight reports themselves likewise contain
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concrete spatial information. Jo Joseph is said to have flown roughly 40 ft through the nave to a tabernacle on Christmas Eve, hovered 15 palms over the ground near a pulpit, reached the top of an olive tree and remained kneeling on a
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slender branch, moved forward and backward through the air, reached ceilings, passed over people's heads, and in some counts carried another person into the air. These are not ambiguous descriptions of like swaying or jumping or standing on tiptoe or, you
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Speaker A
know, briefly losing balance. So, sorry, the acrobat hypothesis. That's like, you know, one of one of the main skeptical glowing hypotheses that, well, you know, he was just a particularly talented acrobat that does complete injustice to the testimonial reports. Notably, Joseph
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faced serious ecclesiastical suspicion, scrutiny, and restriction during his lifetime. After 1636, Monscinior Jeppi Palola, an apostolic vicor, denounced St. Joseph, accused him of abusing the credul of the people, and portrayed him as acting like another messiah. In late
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Speaker A
1638, Joseph was handed to the holy office at Naples and interrogated three times, but was acquitted. The inquisitors' question was not whether the levitations occurred. That wasn't a dispute. They were concerned with whether their origin was divine or
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Speaker A
demonic and whether Joseph was deliberately cultivating publicity. The Inquisition kept a close eye on him while his superiors tried to hide him from the public. For the last three decades of his life and especially the last 10 years of it, Joseph lived much
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Speaker A
like a prisoner, isolated, unable to join in the ritual life of his monasteries or even to eat with his brethren. So no, this is not like a church promulgated conspiracy to try to get publicity and try to get converts.
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They're suppressing him. They're actively suppressing him. The locations of the flights and levitations were also diverse. somewhere outdoors where wires, hidden platforms, and comparable stage apparatus would basically be impossible to conceal given the primitive technologies at the time. As explains,
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several factors make it difficult to dismiss testimonies about his levitations as lies, sheer nonsense, or mass hysteria. First, the levitations are so extreme as to make the likelihood of trickery seem remote, unlikely, or technologically impossible. The use of
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wires ropes stilts trampolines or other contraptions used by illusionists is out of the question for most of his aerial raptures, given their setting and the technology available at that time.
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Speaker A
Second, the number and status of his witnesses make the account seem more credible. Paradoxically, even as his levitations become more extreme. Third, those who witness Joseph's slights are not only other monks and nuns or literate rustics, but representatives of
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the highest echelons of society. The technological hoax hypothesis also struggles to explain Joseph's character and the circumstances of his notoriety.
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Joseph's notoriety repeatedly made his life worse. During his 1638 interrogation, he told inquisitors that he wanted to celebrate mass privately and repeatedly asked his superiors to permit him to do so. He also claimed that the physical manifestations caused
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him shame and embarrassment, that he had prayed for them to seize, and that he had asked his brethren to pray for the same thing. After an ex, he would minimize what happened as mere drowsiness, infirmities, or stuper. He
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insisted that he had no voluntary control over the shouting, hovering, or flying. And again, his mystical flights and limitations brought scorn, trials, and confinement to a small monastery cell like a prisoner forced to live a solitary existence. The Holy Office kept
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Speaker A
St. Joseph under surveillance. He was repeatedly transferred to secluded fieries. visi visitors were restricted and like eventually he couldn't freely correspond or interact as I've said even with his fellow religious um at Petra Rubia Petraia it's me I'm Mario his uh custodians were
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Speaker A
forbidden under pain of excommunication to permit him contact with the outside world uh at Osmo he was once again isolated and ordered to celebrate mass privately and this also just like clearly counts against the hoax as I've said the hoax perpetrated by
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Speaker A
ecclesiastical authorities hypothesis if they're like manufacturing a flying saint as a publicity device. Their persistence attempts to hide the supposed miracle worker from the public would be utterly counterproductive.
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Speaker A
Right? So St. Joseph St. Joseph passed inquisitorial examinations. His raptures were accepted as genuine rather than fain or demonic. And yet the hierarchy continued to suppress him, continue to isolate him even after that. More interesting, this was not a one-time
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occurrence. Over the next few years, Joseph would continue to defy gravity, often in front of large crowds, leaving witnesses both devout and skeptical with no easy answers. Could all of these witnesses been mistaken?
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Speaker A
As the years passed, Joseph of Certino's levitations became more than just isolated events. They became a regular part of his life. Joseph's levitations occurred in a variety of settings, consistently astonishing witnesses.
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During an outdoor procession, he was seen rising to a large cross, remaining there in ecstasy, a moment documented in both Pastor Vich and Bernini's biographies. At a Christmas service, Joseph famously flew from the middle of the church to the high altar as
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extensively detailed in Pastor Vichi's writings. Another account recorded in the official processes describes Joseph letting out a loud cry before soaring into the air and landing at top a statue witnessed by friars and towns people.
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Speaker A
During mass, he was observed hovering above the ground for several minutes with astonished clergy and nobility later providing testimonies in the beautifification records. One of the most memorable examples allegedly occurred before a Protestant Duke Johan Friedrich who was the mentor and teacher
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Speaker A
of the well-known 17th century philosopher Godfrieded Linets. Friedrich would be left in awe after seeing Joseph flying backwards during mass. The miracle would soon lead the Duke to abandon his childhood religion and embrace Roman Catholicism. So, are there
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Speaker A
any accounts of someone around that time who was skeptical of St. Joseph's levitations but then became convinced after looking into it.
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Well, yeah, that Saxon prince who came and converted saw him. He had people in his retinue who were totally skeptical.
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One of them in particular who said, "I had no problems till I came to this damn country. Why did I have to see this?" He ended up converting to Catholicism, too.
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Speaker A
During a religious celebration, he was seen flying above the heads of Spanish military leaders as documented by Bernini and Provenzala. Pilgrims, peasants, and nobility alike flocked to the churches where Joseph was known to serve. The sight of him levitating
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Speaker A
during the blessing of the Eucharist were soaring above the altar during their religious procession became almost common place. Yet, it never failed to inspire awe or provoke questions.
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Testimonies from all walks of life, including clergy, noblemen, and even military leaders are preserved in documents such as the biographies by Bernini and Pastor Vichi, which recount these events in detail. As this narrative continues, you might be thinking that there's no way that any of
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these stories are true. They've just got to be made up. But here's the thing.
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These events weren't just witnessed by a few devout followers desperate for some miracle. The testimonies come from hundreds of people over the span of decades from all walks of life. Could any of the levitations of St. Joseph be
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Speaker A
attributed to these sort of you know fakeries or uh magic? I guess some of his limit levitations could the ones that are very slight and hardly off the ground. It's the extreme ones that uh cannot be explained away
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Speaker A
because they just don't have the technology. uh present- day illusionists, David Blaine, Copperfield, Chris Angel, they have the same wires that Broadway plays use to have people fly on stage. So I remember in the 1960s they televised Broadway musical Peter
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Speaker A
Pan and people were flying all over the stage. I I was only like 10 years old and I thought, how do they do this? So if they had had the equipment, you know, nice, very, very nice but very safe
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Speaker A
thinned cables, which they did not have, and pulleys of all sorts that would have to be visible, especially outdoor levitations, and Joseph had many outdoor levitations much harder to fake. And for instance, one of the frosters who was
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Speaker A
actually condemned by the church was a nun who uh confessed that her levitations were were all of them were purely staged but going several feet off the ground outdoors or as in the case of Joseph moving forwards basically flying
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Speaker A
and backwards very hard to fake. It's another reason I chose to study him because he's off the register in so many ways. And and part of being off the register is these extreme levitations of his. I think any historian of science
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Speaker A
would have a hard time coming up with what kind of equipment would have been necessary for this and would it be available in the 1600s.
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So let's consider the facts here. The accounts of Joseph's levitations aren't limited to one place or time. They come from peasants, yes, but also from friars, from noblemen, from military leaders, and even members of the clergy.
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Speaker A
In fact, Joseph's beautifification process included testimonies from priests, shepherds, and high-ranking officials like the Admiral of Castile.
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All of whom described witnessing his levitations firsthand. We're talking about educated individuals who are wellresected in their communities. And it wasn't just inside the church walls.
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Speaker A
Joseph's levitations were seen outdoors in front of crowds, making it nearly impossible to dismiss them as simple tricks of light or elaborate hoaxes using advanced mechanical wiring which didn't even exist at the time. So, could they all have been mistaken? Could so
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Speaker A
many different people from so many different backgrounds really have been fooled or maybe even convinced to lie?
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Speaker A
This definitely a question worth taking seriously. The turning point came during an audience with Pope Urban VI. Joseph, humble and devout as always, approached the Pope to pay his respects. As he knelt to kiss the Pope's feet, something
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Speaker A
extraordinary happened. Overcome by a surge of emotion, whether it was divine ecstasy, spiritual fervor, or something else entirely, Joseph suddenly began to rise.
186:38
Speaker A
Now, this event is one of the most welldocumented moments in Joseph's life. Recorded in multiple sources, including Bernini's biography and the Processy, where eyewitnesses recounted the Pope's astonishment.
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Speaker A
In front of the Pope, the cardinals, and the gathered court, he levitated several feet into the air. The room fell absolutely silent. The Pope himself was left speechless. Here was a man who had been brought to Rome under suspicion of
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Speaker A
deceit and now floating into the air before the vicor of Christ. Eyewitnesses in the papal court later testified that Joseph remained suspended for what seemed like an eternity, an event that left a lasting impression on all who were present as detailed in the process.
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Speaker A
Maybe the best naturalistic explanation that I've come across is that, you know, he was a particularly talented acrobat.
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Speaker A
Religious fervor exaggerated his acrobatics into fanciful stories of levitation and flight. Now, of course, I mean, that seems to just make a mince meat of very early testimony. It seems to ignore the non-atholic witnesses who saw his flights firsthand and converted
187:42
Speaker A
afterwards. And it just like seems to rely on an astonishing string of exaggerations spanning hundreds of folios containing sworn depositions. And like, dude, honestly, that that it seems to be conspiratorial, right? Since the exaggerations in question are not
187:54
Speaker A
plausibly one and all unconscious, right? Like, it's hard to honestly unconsciously spin an acrobatic jump into a levitation for hours on end.
188:03
Speaker A
Right. So like basically the naturalist is reduced to positing a large conspiracy seemingly where like hordes of people consciously lied or exaggerated extremely mundane occurrences into you know fanciful strikingly convergent tales despite many of them believing that like you know
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Speaker A
lying under their oath would probably get them sent to hell. Uh and you know despite at least one of them being annoyed at having witnessed St. Joseph's flight as a Protestant. Right? So again, like I do want to emphasize, you know, I
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Speaker A
was aware of a lot of this evidence even when I was like an agnostic and and it it wasn't enough, you know, to get me at that point, but like again, like it's just one of those things that it was
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Speaker A
kind of like, you know, another pebble in my shoe, just like something that was like, h yeah, I know. It's like an evidential hit, you know? Um by itself, I don't expect this case alone uh to convince you guys, you know, or to like
188:50
Speaker A
basically take you from like a settled naturalism or settled skepticism into like a theism or some kind of like supernaturalism, right? Uh yeah, I'm just saying like this is not this is not like the foremost miracle that I would
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Speaker A
run, but we just we have a lot like extensive early eyewitness testimony to things that are very hard to be honestly mistaken about from people from all different echelons of society and it seems to like independently converge in
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Speaker A
pretty striking ways. So um I do think it's like evidentially forceful and that's why I bring it up. It's just like another thing to add to the list. And we're like, it's basically like another one of these baroque conspiracies
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Speaker A
seemingly that the naturalist is going to have to just like take on board until, you know, you get to the end and their hypothesis is just going to be like this disgustingly grotesque albatross of a theory. As for vindicator
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Speaker A
implications, I don't know. I don't really think the vindicator implications of St. Joseph's mystical charisms alone are particularly strong. Um, I mean like the dude just seemed to be like, you know, just like levitating. Actually, come to think of it, some of the stories
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Speaker A
did concern like, you know, I think like he would see like a statue of the blessed mother and then he would enter into an ecstatic flight and then, you know, go up and if you know, because that's like divinely caused, maybe that
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Speaker A
um is like a sort of divine vindication of Marian devotion. Like, if Marian devotion is bad, like why is God going out of it way to cause this? So, I mean, maybe there's something there for Marian devotion and it does, I think,
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Speaker A
contribute to a broader distribution of mystical charisms that seems to privilege Catholicism and apostolic Christianity more generally over Protestantism. That's not to say that there are no Protestant mystics. It's not what I'm saying. Um, but it does seem to me that like the comparison
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Speaker A
between sects here isn't particularly close, at least from my uh vantage point. All right, so let's move past the realm of mystics and supernatural charrorisms. That was just section one.
190:18
Speaker A
Um, let's move past the realm of mystics and supernatural charisms and into the realm of medically documented healing miracles. And here I'll be restricting myself to ones which seem to pass the Lambertini criteria. Basically, the following from Caleb Jackson. The
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Speaker A
ailment is medically documented. It's organic, right? So it's not like um a psychoggenic illness. It's progressive.
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Speaker A
So, it's progressively getting worse. Um, or you know, it stays constantly bad. Maybe that should be added. And it's serious, not like a light thing like the flu or whatever. And the cure is religiously correlated. So, it happens in a religious context, in the
190:49
Speaker A
context of prayer or the invocation of a saint or a shrine or something like that. It's unprecedented. So, it's like there there don't seem to be any natural precedence for the kind of healing that you see. It's permanent. So, that the
191:00
Speaker A
thing it's not like a spontaneous remission that then comes back later. It's instantaneous or near instantaneous.
191:08
Speaker A
So, it's not like, oh yeah, someone just gradually got better over the course of months. No, we're talking like boom, better um or near enough to boom. Uh it's a complete recovery. It's a complete or near complete recovery. So,
191:18
Speaker A
it's not like, you know, the leg was broken and then like the tiniest shard at the bottom was like connected like no, it doesn't seem to be a miracle. Um and it's spontaneous. So, it arises without any um you know, like medical
191:30
Speaker A
intervention explaining the the healing. So let's first start with Protestant healings. There are many medically documented healing miracles that occur to Protestants or in Protestant services. Um and you know you can see Caleb Jackson's forthcoming book and chapter here for a defense. And here
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Speaker A
I'll just focus on two. Barbara Schneider and Greg Spencer. So first Barbara Schneider. For those curious, the medical documentation is in the resource document. But let's read from Caleb's chapter. Between the onset of her symptoms in the 1960s to her sudden
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Speaker A
cure in 1981, Barbara Kinsby Schneider had endured a progressively debilitating affliction for well over a decade. In 1965, the the girl first began to notice problems at the age of 15 when she had difficulty gripping objects properly and
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Speaker A
would frequently bump into structures while walking. This grew more profound as time went on and eventually required the girl to wear an arm brace. Diagnosis was sought. A local neurologist initially conducted several tests, was initially unable to find proper
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Speaker A
pathology. Multiple scerosis was eventually considered though doctors felt that it was unlikely that the girl could have been um inflicted with the condition at such an early age. However, a diagnosis of progressive MS was determined to be accurate by a series of
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Speaker A
spinal taps in 1970. Within the decade following the diagnosis, her MS would on occasion go into remission as symptoms mitigated in intensity. It is during the period of mitigation that Barbara took on a job as a handicap secretary while
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Speaker A
attending university. Eventually, you know, inevitably relapses would occur. They'd cause her health to progressively grow more dire. With each relapse, you know, her uh symptoms would become worse than before. These eventually became so severe that Barbara became unable to
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Speaker A
complete her schoolwork and had to drop out of college. As the 1970s came around, her respiratory system began to deteriorate and Barbara was constantly hospitalized due to asthma and pneumonia. She would undergo respiratory and cardiac arrest on three different
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Speaker A
occasions um which would leave her discombobulated. One of her lungs then collapsed in 1972 and was coupled with complete paralysis of the left diaphragm and 50% paralysis of the right diaphragm. All of which restricted her breathing. Barbara would be admitted to
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Speaker A
the Mayo Clinic in 1978 as a last resort, but treatments weren't able to bring about any improvement. her would then uh cause her to become incontinent and require permanent caization. As the disease progressed, her vision would all but vanish uh and she became legally
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Speaker A
blind. In her medical records, we read that the condition had caused almost complete blindness with large scammatada.
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Speaker A
By 1978, Barbara had lost most of the sensation in her legs and became wheelchair dependent. Uh the following year, she would further lose the ability to even be transported in a wheelchair and remained completely bedbound, unable to care for herself without a household
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Speaker A
nurse. She only left the house for hospital visitations via ambulance. Records from her hospitalization note severe tremoring of the hands that made personal care almost impossible and caused complete inability to work for the previous two years. Another physician wrote that her hands were so
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Speaker A
permanently flexed that her fingers nearly touched her wrists with her body described as twisted like a pretzel, causing her to be stuck in a fetal position on her bed. Her gastrointestinal health fared no better.
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Speaker A
As the 1980s kicked off, her condition was hopeless. Her green eyes were useless, a patchcovered one. the legs spindly and dangling. The arms and hands had turned in on themselves and frequently the twisted body was connected to machines
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Speaker A
and tumors unrelated to MS grew on her hands and feet. The disease continued to progress. Her ability to breathe autonomously vanished in 1980 and she was put on a ventilator. Uh she could at this point no longer swallow and
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Speaker A
required a feeding tube in her stomach. To combat this, the woman had to receive a tracheosttomy in 1980 where she was given a hole in her neck to help her breathe via tubes. On May 14th, 1981, it was reported that Barbara underwent a
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Speaker A
laparottomy for treatment for her abdominal cavity, which showed no improvement. Given the severity of symptoms and the incapacitation of the patient during the time, her MS could be identified as peing to an EDSS score of 9.5. The doctors and family agreed not
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Speaker A
to attempt to further hospitalize her or resuscitate her as it would only delay the inevitable.
194:49
Speaker A
So, she's basically on her deathbed. A communal prayer chain was forged by family and friends in a last stitch effort for the 31-year-old terminal patient. While lying in her bed on June 7th, 1981, Barbara heard a male voice
194:58
Speaker A
behind her, which she believed belonged to God, directing her to get up and walk. The woman then took a literal leap of faith by quickly jumping out of bed and pulling out the breathing tube, giving her oxygen. Within only a few
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Speaker A
moments, Barbara and her family report that the woman's sight was now normal, her neurological function completely restored, and her breathing uninhibited.
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Speaker A
Her mother fell to her knees and felt her daughter's legs, her calf muscles, which had been attributed in years of not being used, had seemingly regenerated. Her father then picked her up and danced with her right there in
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Speaker A
the living room with Barbara jumping up and down at least 10 times as the family tried to calm the excited girl down.
195:28
Speaker A
Like come on, this is after after not using the legs for years. We probably need such extensive physical therapy for that. But anyway, let's go on. Uh later that day, the former paraplegic appeared before many witnesses at her local
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Speaker A
congregation at Wheaten Wesian Church as she walked among the pews unaded. Barbara's primary physician was shocked to see his patient stroll into his office the following day on June 8th where he testified that he stopped all of her paliative medication because she
195:49
Speaker A
was totally cured. emphasizing that no one had ever seen anything like this before. An X-ray taken during the same visit found no abnormalities in a previously collapsed lung. Her catheter was also removed at this time. A medical report signed two months later by a
196:00
Speaker A
separate doctor confirmed the patient is a 31-year-old white female who has had recently a complete healing of severe multiple scerosis uh which she had for the previous 16 years. The complete recovery occurred 2 weeks after an ilostomy exploratory leparottomy at
196:11
Speaker A
which time she was completely incapacitated with complete paralysis of the right diaphragm 50% paralysis of the left diaphragm tracheiotomy tube in place at the constant crayostomy care intermittent almost complete blindness with large scodmata complete gastrointestinal paralysis with with
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Speaker A
prolapsing rectum corrected by surgery but complete malfunction of the intestinal tract necessitating the ilostomy severe tremor of both arms and hands making personal care almost impossible and complete inability to walk for the previous two years. The patient now has none of the findings of
196:36
Speaker A
multiple scerosis is walking normally has the tracheiotomy tube out and no pulmonary problems. She's anxious for ilostomy and tracheiotomy to be closed for the patient's past medical history and systematic review. Please see the previous extensive sharps. At the
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Speaker A
present time the patient has no findings of multiple scerosis and walks normally, speaks normally and is very happy as is her family over the obvious answer to prayer and the good hand of God on her life. Barbara Schneider's miracle would
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Speaker A
later go on to be discussed in both local and large scale media outlets, television programs and publications including a May 1983 edition of the Chicago Tribune. From the Tribune's editorial, we were given direct quotations from three different physicians who express astoundment at
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Speaker A
Barbara's sudden cure. Dr. Herald Adolf, this was completely unexpected. There's nothing I can explain on the basis of medicine. It was a miracle. Dr. Thomas Marshall, I have never witnessed anything like this before or since, and considered a rare privilege to observe
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Speaker A
the hand of God performing a true miracle. Barb has gone on to live a normal life in every way. Dr. Donald Edwards, there is no medical test to explain what has happened. There is no neurological trace of her problem. The
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Speaker A
proof is time. The proof is time is key. Barbara would go on to live for 40 more years without any relapses of multiple scerosis, dying of natural causes. um at age 71. In terms of scientific explanation, there's little to be
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Speaker A
salvaged. It is conceivable that Barbara's collapsed lung could have spontaneously gained back its form over time, but this is dwarfed by all the by the sudden resolution of all major neurological symptoms in unison. Appeals to psychological illness are implausible
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Speaker A
here for me reasons which Caleb kind of goes into as any appeals to palative medications used. One of her physicians on camera in 1983 corroborates the instantaneous healing as well as the return of previously atrophied muscle.
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Speaker A
Barbara's recovery was amazing in that not only was she apparently healed of the disease but the atrophy, the wasting, the contractors all were completely removed and she was able to walk and move all of her extremities and her whole body as if there were no had
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Speaker A
never had been any disease. This overnight recovery that she shows is something that is completely unexplainable by medical science. cannot be accomplished by medicine and was not accomplished by medicine.
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Speaker A
Schneider herself reports instantaneous muscular regeneration in an interview with the Chicago Tribune from 1980. Now, I just don't hear voices, but the voice was real at that moment, she said. I looked at my friends and said, "I don't
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Speaker A
know what you're going to think, but God just told me to get up and walk." Kaminsky told them to get her family, but before they returned, she hopped out of bed. I jumped out of bed and stood on
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Speaker A
one foot right away. I pulled off my oxygen, could see fine, could move fine, jumped on one foot, and then the other.
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Speaker A
I met my mother in the hall and she grabbed my gown and looked at my legs.
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Speaker A
She said, "You've got calves again." June 7th, 1981. I'll never forget it. It was a day like any other day for me.
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Speaker A
That was when spent confined to bed, unable to breathe on my own, hooked up to machines, a tracheosttomy tube in my neck, my arms curled up, my legs curled up. I lay there trapped inside my own body is
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Speaker A
really how it felt. I had two friends over. They came over all the time. They were from my church. My church family never forgot me. So while they were there, I still remember exactly what they were reading when all of a sudden
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Speaker A
um I heard a booming authoritative loud voice over my shoulder over here say, "My child, get up and walk." And there was nobody else in the room.
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Speaker A
And there was no one else in the room. And the door was over here. There were windows over this way. And instantly I knew it was God. But instantly I also knew that my friends didn't hear that. M
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Speaker A
which is kind of interesting too. Um and I needed to share with them what I heard.
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Speaker A
Well, I had this tracheiotomy tube in my neck. That's how I breathed. And I had hands that did not work. So my friend said whenever I looked agitated, they knew I wanted to talk. So they come and plug the hole in my neck. And I said, "I
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Speaker A
don't know what you're going to think about this, but God just told me to get up and walk." My friends got really quiet.
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Speaker A
I know. But he really did tell me to get up and walk. Run, get my family. I want them to be here. And um my friends all of a sudden jumped up. And while they jump, so did I. I was so excited. I
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Speaker A
couldn't wait for anyone. And I literally jumped out of the bed. This This is where you'd almost have to have known me to see how totally impossible that was. So this time I remember reaching up and pulling my oxygen up. I
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Speaker A
remember that. And then I jumped toward the voice. My friends are over here, but I jumped towards the voice. And as I jumped up, the first thing I remember isn't what I would think I would remember. But I jumped out of the bed
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Speaker A
and I looked and I saw my feet. They were flat on the ground just like everyone else's, which sounds normal, but not for me. I had foot drops so badly I couldn't even wear slippers on my feet. They were so curled. So when I
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Speaker A
jumped up to have feet flat, I was amazed and stood staring at my feet. And when I did that, I jumped like this and then I saw my hands and they were open and they never opened. And so now they
201:24
Speaker A
were open and I stood staring at them and then don. That's what I would have thought I would have noticed first was my vision.
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Speaker A
But I didn't. I was back. You could see. It was back. I was perfectly fine. And I stood staring again for a little while just feeling what it felt like to look at and see me. And then I turned and
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Speaker A
that's when we were like women. We all started jumping up and down screaming and thanking the Lord. I remember I didn't understand anything except for once I was real sick. I was well again.
201:56
Speaker A
And it has to be God. That's all I knew. Barbara was instantly and thoroughly healed. Her eyesight was immediately restored. Her lungs immediately went back to normal. Her mother came running into the room and fell to her knees and
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Speaker A
began to feel her calves. She said, "Your muscles are back." The her muscle tone had returned instantly to her legs so she could walk after seven years. Um her father came in and and and hugged her and then began walsing with her
202:24
Speaker A
around the room. Well, this was a Sunday that this happened and there was a church service that night at her church, which was Wheaten Wesleyan Church in suburban Chicago. They were holding a service. And so at the point in the
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Speaker A
service, a pastor gets up and says, "Now, does anybody have any announcements they want to mention?" And with that, Barbara began to stroll down the aisle in front of everybody who had only known her for all these years as
202:48
Speaker A
being curled up in a wheelchair or sick in bed. She comes strolling down the aisle and the place erupts and people begin singing, "Amazing grace, I once was blind and now I see." The next morning she went to one of her doctors,
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Speaker A
Dr. Thomas Marshall, an internist for 30 years. And when he saw her walking toward him down the corridor, he said later, my first reaction was, "Oh, she died and this is a ghost." That's the only way he could account for
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Speaker A
it. His response was this quote, "This is medically impossible." Friends, God instantly and completely and astoundingly healed Barbara in one miraculous moment. This is there's no natural explanation for this. This was not some sort of um spontaneous remission which happens over a period of
203:40
Speaker A
time and the illness often comes back. This was instantaneous. Her eyesight returning, her lungs reinflating, her entire body immediately healed. And how would you explain that voice telling her to get up and walk? This would be like a
203:54
Speaker A
voice telling you, "Get up and fly." And you'd say, "Well, I can't do that." That's how wild it was for her to get up and walk after all these years. And yet she heard that. How do you explain that?
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Speaker A
Well, the illness has never come back today. This happened more than 30 years ago.
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Speaker A
Next up is Greg Spencer. Suffering from poor eyesight at age 12 due to the swelling of the retina. Greg's vision improved after around 10 months during adolescence and remained stable for several decades. However, her vision problems had returned by the time Greg
204:22
Speaker A
became middle-aged. In August 1998, the 40-year-old man noticed that his vision became blurred to the point where he was forced to discontinue driving. His normal eyesight had tested 2040 and fall 1998, but rapidly worsened by March 1999 when his corrected visual acuity
204:34
Speaker A
measured 2070 in his left eye and 2020 2200 in the right. One month later, his visual acuity had dropped dramatically to 2,400 uncorrected acuity in his right eye and 2200 in the left, certifying Greg as legally blind. An official
204:45
Speaker A
diagnosis of juvenile macular degeneration was given on May 21st, 1999 after test found a dense skoma in each eye. All things considered, Greg appears to have macular immacular degenerative process in each eye that has finally resulted in legal blindness status for
205:00
Speaker A
his betterseeing left eye. I discussed the high likelihood that this is a genetic form of macular degeneration. I spent considerable time discussing with Greg the findings, his current legal blindness status, the lack of any known treatment or surgical benefits, and the
205:11
Speaker A
various support services available through the Oregon Commission for the Blind. We also gave him literature for the foundation for fighting blindness and uh had our social worker meet with him for a discussion of support groups and how to proceed with his life. This
205:22
Speaker A
diagnosis was confirmed the following month by a separate opthalmologist who would recommend to the organ commission for the blind that Greg be given a pair of gradea polarized sunglasses to combat photosensitivity. The patients doctors noted in the records that no treatments
205:33
Speaker A
were available at the time for those suffering from JMD, emphasizing to the patient that he would need to receive official training for his new life of legal blindness. Greg Spencer took this advice by registering with the Oregon Commission for the Blind, where he was
205:42
Speaker A
taught how to read Braille, given a guide dog, and received disability payments through the Social Security Administration. Blindness persisted until spring 2002, and Greg Spencer underwent an inexplicable reversal of his condition immediately during a men's retreat at a local church. He had
205:54
Speaker A
initially entered the retreat on April 19th with fellow attendees, noting that he needed multiple pairs of glasses to make out the print of the Bible he read.
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Speaker A
During a worship service that weekend, Greg got emotional and petitioned to God, not to restore his eyesight, but to heal his mind and save him from his past sins. Then the miracle occurred. When he opened his eyes, Greg could now see the
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Speaker A
exit sign in the back of the church building. Witnesses at the time commented that Greg ran out of the building and emphatically pointed out that he could now see objects outside.
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Speaker A
Following the retreat's end on April 21st, Greg's repaired sight was officially confirmed by his doctor 2 weeks later. An opthalmology report from early May reads as follows. The patient was seen on the 3rd of May 2002 with a
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Speaker A
remarkable return of his visual acuity. His vision is measured without correction at 2030 in each eye, which is which was his original acuity level before his loss of vision. Examination showed mild macular pigment scatter, but no macular edema or deposits at this
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Speaker A
time. Hopefully, his visual return from the 2200 level in each eye will be permanent. Despite the recovery being considered a blessing, Greg Greg Spencer's healing caused him to fall into legal trouble. Given the permanent nature of Greg's disability status, the
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Speaker A
man's healing naturally raised suspicion by the social social security administration, which informed Greg that he was being investigated for disability fraud. However, no evidence of fraud was found after a year of inquiry from the SSA into his medical and legal
206:57
Speaker A
documentation. In a letter sent that summer, the administration then informed the recipient that he no longer qualified for disability due to the return of his cut. They're like, "Okay, you know, uh you're like, "Yeah, you're right. You got the medical
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Speaker A
documentation. I guess you have eyesight back. I you know I guess the blind now see the Lamberti criteria appear to be satisfied in Greg's case. Post healing observations seem to indicate an objective change to the makeup of the
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Speaker A
eye itself. Examination shows mild macular pigment scatter, but no macular deer deposits. In virtually all instances, JMD is not a condition that can repair itself or go into spontaneous remission. This point was likewise noted by a surgeon who reviewed Greg's records
207:24
Speaker A
as a third party and came to the same conclusion. I believe that Greg may have decreased vision, but I very much doubt that he was two 2400 and 2200 and that got better on its own. Retinal damage of
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Speaker A
that sort does not improve. If the RP retinal pigment epithelium is damaged, the photo receptors die and they do not come back. In clinical situations, retinal pigmentation epithelial modeling once present never goes away. And with all with all the attention given to
207:41
Speaker A
macular disease, doctors have not discovered the silver bullet. Macular generation is irreversible and incurable. FS therapy is paliative.
207:47
Speaker A
There's also cases of the blind seeing. We have Greg Spencer who began to suffer vision problems in his late 30s in August 98. He was diagnosed with juvenile macular degeneration. His eyesight rapidly worsened over a few months with Greg becoming legally blind
208:02
Speaker A
with uncorrected acuity in less than 2400 in his right eye and 2200 in his left. By May of 99, he registered for the Oregon Commission of the Blind. In 99, he began receiving disability payments. We have a letter here from his
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Speaker A
doctor, Dr. Richard Wiber, diagnosing Greg with JMD. This is all medically documented. We also have the letter from the Oregon Commission of the Blind on June 23rd of 99 saying that Greg has been evaluated and yes, we're going to,
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Speaker A
you know, receive him and help him be prepared to live his life as a blind man. Now, Greg was before, uh, he was a truck driver, so obviously he had to quit his job and receive disability. Uh, but before that, he was a police officer
208:43
Speaker A
and he had been exposed to a lot of things that just really tormented his mind. and he attended a Christian men's retreat between August of 19th through the 21st, 2002 where he had to wear thick glasses and still couldn't read
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Speaker A
the print of his Bible. He didn't even pray for physical healing. He prayed for the healing of his mind. He just wanted to be free from all the past trauma he experienced as a former cop.
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Speaker A
Opthalmology records record two weeks later in early May, they noted near perfect and instantaneous improvement.
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Speaker A
So after the prayer, Greg had closed his eyes. He opened his eyes. He said that he could see a sign that said exit. We started looking around and just seeing everything. His uh wife was driving him home and he was reading license plates
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Speaker A
and billboards because he was just so excited. And so the Social Security administration had to investigate Greg for fraud. But they concluded that he wasn't lying, that he really was blind and now he could see. So you get an idea
209:38
Speaker A
by the visual there of what his uncorrected acuity uncorrected acuity was uh pre-healing versus after like this is a pretty amazing miracle that's just not explicable through naturalism whatsoever. Um, we have a letter from his doctor, John Burpie, in May 3rd of
209:56
Speaker A
2002 and uh sending it to the Social Security Administration and the Social Security Administration concluded their investigation and said there's evidence of juvenile macular degeneration. This is not fraud. And guess what? Greg went back to work. And so to deny this
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Speaker A
miracle, you would need wrong diagnosis, wrong testing, wrong disability status, mistaken witnesses, unexplained timing.
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Speaker A
you know, receiving this miracle during prayer, mistaken post-healing exams, mistaken social security review, and over two decades of sustained accidental recovery because Greg is still fine to this day, or some kind of widescale conspiracy for a guy to get some
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Speaker A
disability checks only for him later to go back to his job doing what? Driving trucks, um, living the dream. And so, again, I think this is best explained as a miracle. And so now as for the vindicatory implications of Protestant
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Speaker A
healings, if they're invoked in the name of Christ, I think that's going to be like, you know, decently good evidence for Christianity. But no Protestant distinctive doctrines are being vindicated here, though. At least I haven't come across a case where
210:56
Speaker A
someone's like, you like, I call forth this sign in witness to, you know, solid and, you know, get up and walk and then the person gets up and walk like you. So I don't think like Protestant distinctive doctrines are being
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Speaker A
vindicated here, but you know, God compassionates people in a variety of different sects and you know, like Protestants are are separated brethren.
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as much as I'm going to be like very down on you guys later on in the video, you know, like you are my brothers and sisters in Christ, right? So, um I need to try to remember that because I've
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already recorded some other things, right? I'm very vigorous and I've been very vigorous, but you know, um I need to keep that in mind because I can sometimes be uh especially post conversion, I can be a little bit rabid.
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So, um forgive me for my rabbidness. I am a sinner and I need God's grace. I need to work on my charity. So, okay, let's go on to saintly intercession.
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Okay. So before covering specific canonization and beatatification healing miracles, let's get a sense of the process by which the church discerns these miracles.
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The whole process of approving miracles within the Catholic Church looks much more scientific than many people, Christian or non-Christian, realize. And for this, I would turn to the work of Dr. Jacqueline Duffin. Now, there's a couple things you should know about Dr.
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Duffin. Number one, maybe most important in some ways, she's an atheist. So she's not coming at this as some believer trying to vindicate the idea of miracles. Number two, she's well qualified as both a hematologist like a blood doctor, but also as a medical
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historian, someone who's done a tremendous amount of academic work on the history of where different advances in science come from. And number three, she unbeknownst to herself played an important role in the confirmation of a miracle. So, long story short, in the
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mid '80s, uh, in her capacity as a hematologist, she was given bone marrow aspirates and she was given them blind, meaning she doesn't know why she's been given them. And she's just asked to examine them. And she looks at the
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microscope and realizes there was severe acute leukemia, that had a remission and then a relapse and then a remission again. And she assumes naturally that the person must be dead and that this is involving some kind of lawsuit only to
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discover to her surprise that the person was alive and attributed their recovery to the intercession of Canada's first nativeborn saint. But you know what? I'm going to actually let Dr. Duffin give the story in her own words. Well, it
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began in my role as a blood doctor, a hematologist when I was very young and I was asked to read a set of bone marrows blind and it turned out to be a case of uh very aggressive leukemia and the
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patient clearly went into remission for a short period then relapsed and then went into remission again. So, I imagine that it was for a lawsuit and that the patient must be dead because the type of leukemia she had was so aggressive. And
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I could tell from the slides that it was about eight years earlier. And it turned out that she wasn't dead and that this was the case that was used to be the final miracle in the cause for canonization of Canada's first saint.
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So scientifically, she sees this person should be dead and then discovers to her surprise the woman isn't dead and attributes her recovery to the intercession of now Saint Marie Margarite Deuville. Now this leads Dr.
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Duffin on a really fascinating journey. She's invited to come to the canonization of the saint. And so she ends up in the Vatican. She gets to meet Pope John Paul II. And it leads to this brilliant kind of idea that she has to
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use this as a launching point to do the kind of research that she does. Now, here's what you need to know. As I mentioned, she's not just a hematologist. She was also at this time the Hannah chair of the history of
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medicine at Queens University, a position that she held until 2017. She was also the president of the Canadian Society for the History of Medicine and the American Association for the History of Medicine, which means this is a woman who in addition to being
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a medical doctor has done a lot of academic work in the history of where medical advances come from. So she has this kind of light bulb moment when she's inducted in the Canadian Medical Hall of Fame in 2019. She's described as
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a medical historian, a hematologist, an inspirational researcher, a teacher, and an advocate. And they lauded her for the fact that she understands the role history plays in making sense of science. Like how did we come to know the things that we know and that she
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talks about this in her book history of medicine, a scandalously short introduction. So what is her brilliant insight that she can access now the Vatican secret archive? She's well poised as someone who has not only met the pope, it's not only been to the
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Vatican, but has played this role in the canonization of a saint despite not herself being a Christian at all. and she thinks why don't I do a little research about where all of this stuff comes from. That is she realizes that
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her own documents are in the Vatican secret archives because of the role that she played like her paperwork in terms of the hematology report that she does looking at these slides. She realizes it's there and then she starts to
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realize like oh there's so many other aspects from earlier cases that would be here for centuries. Wouldn't it be great as a historian and a doctor to get your hands on this to see what does it look like? Why do you know how do we come to
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this idea that different things are miracles as opposed to other things? And so she ends up making three research trips to the Vatican. She's given permission to go into the Vatican secret archives and there's someone who works with her to bring her different files
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all the way up to 1922. But she makes three research trips to the Vatican between 2001 and 2003. And she wants to know the following questions. Number one, what proportion of the miracles worked through the intercessions of new
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saints were healings of physical illness? Because that's the kind of thing that she has the most background in. When we're talking about miracles, what do we mean by a miracle? Is this an actual physical cure or is this
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something else? Number two, what diseases were cured? Number three, how many miracles like mine? She says, meaning the one she looked at, entailed cutting edge science and the testimony of skeptical, even atheist scientists like her.
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Finally, what was the experience of other doctors whose medical work led them to a lurggical encounter as she calls it? And how did these things change through time? Now the results of this she ends up getting information on
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more than 600 miracles pertaining to 333 different canonizations or beatatifications. I'll explain that difference in a second. And so she gets for every person canonized a saint from the early 17th century up to when she's writing this, she has at least one
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miracle that was attributed to their intercession and many beatatifications as well. So she has a very thorough record. This is not a small sample size that she's working with. And she finds that in almost all the miracles greater
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than 95% we're looking at healings from physical illnesses. So this is the kind of thing you know that she's qualified to look at. And these are miracles from 36 different countries, five different continents, a bunch of different languages. Usually there's a Latin
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translation. She's able to follow pretty well, especially when they're talking about the medical aspect because again, in addition to being a historian, she's a doctor.
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What does she find? Number one, she finds that the church is actually slow to accept reported miracles. This is not just a case of credulous and unsophisticated people believing just any report of a miracle that comes their way in order to swell the congregations.
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Quite the opposite. She finds for instance this is actually a slow and deliberate sort of process and each stage of the process can take many years. Now this is helpful just to understand kind of where we are in the
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whole story. You have what's called a cause of canonization. If somebody dies and seem to have led a holy exemplary life and people are you know really looking up to them as a model Catholic and wanting to imitate them asking for
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their prayers and intercession eventually you can open what's called the called the cause of their canonization.
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These days you have to wait at least five years to open the cause. It used to be until 1917 you have had to wait 50 years. So the next step if you open the cause of canonization the person named a
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servant of God and then a scholarly biography is prepared. They look at all the paperwork. They really try to delve into did this person lead a heroic life.
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They're looking for what's called heroic virtue. And if the church determines yes, they move on to the next stage.
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They're called a venerable. This is when the miracles come in. You've done the natural process by, you know, this person has a popular acclaim.
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They're revered as holy. We've looked closely at their life and they certainly seem to be holy. But now we have to really turn this over to God. And in order to be beatified in order to go from being a venerable to a blessed,
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there has to be at least one miracle that's confirmed. After you become a blessed, another miracle is needed in order for you to be declared a saint. Now, even this is simplifying the process a little bit and it's a different story if we're talking
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about martyrs because they have kind of a different track to saintthood since they die for the faith. We're going to leave martyrs aside and just look at the non-martyr saints.
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What she realizes is that along the way, it isn't that the church is just trying to find miracles anywhere and is happy to confirm anything as a miracle.
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There's actually people who have the job of being what was then called devil's advocate. And this is a position that Cardinal Ratzinger actually occupied.
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And their role as devil's advocate is to argue maybe they're not a saint. Here are all the reasons we might doubt that it is something like peer review.
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They're testing the robustness of the claim that you know Joe Smith is a saint. They're looking for imperfections in the exemplary life. They're contesting the claims of the postulates the people putting forward the cause for canonization. They're unmasking either
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deception or wishful thinking on the part of the person who claimed to have experienced a miracle and they're identifying errors in medical judgment.
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And this is going to be really important. Meaning, you may claim there was a miracle, but if the church looks into it and says, you know what, maybe not. Maybe the doctor just made a mistake. They're going to toss it.
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They're not going to consider that as an authentic miracle for the cause of canonization. So the role this plays is much less credulous and unsophisticated than people like Dawkins assume. It actually is much more rigorous of a process. That's the first thing to
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realize. But to be in a position to qualify, best practice must have been given. Doctors and their up-to-date medicine are essential to the clerics.
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Like then the church is looking at this. They want to know, was this person treated at a natural level the way they're supposed to have been treated?
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That is a tricky and sometimes awkward question because it means the doctor is sort of on trial. So she gives the example of for instance in 1908 a Corsican doctor, a doctor from Corsica who basically it comes out he didn't do
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everything that he should have and as a result with the benefit of hindsight his three expert colleagues refused to believe that the nun's ailment though grave had been tuberculosis. He didn't do all the steps he should have done to
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confirm that it was tuberculosis in the first place. And therefore, we don't know if she miraculously recovered from tuberculosis or if she was just misdiagnosed by the doctor. As a result, more evidence was needed. They refused to accept this as a miracle. All that is
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to say, there are probably a lot of miracles that the church is saying no to, not because we're just being cynical, but because we just can't say for sure if they were miraculous. they don't meet the kind of standards and the
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conditions we're looking for to determine if there was authentically a miracle here or not. And so if you haven't done the work you should do as a doctor in terms of the diagnosis and treatment, we don't have the paperwork.
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We don't have the evidence to conclusively say this appears to be a miracle or not. As she says, when a miracle was laden with medical controversy, it rarely became the final miracle in a process. disagreement among the doctors was sufficient to weaken the
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cause and credence to the rigorous doubts cast by the devil's advocate except on rare occasions more evidence would be needed in order for the canonization to proceed. So even if you know you got two groups of doctors and
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one group is just irrationally opposed to the fact that this could be a miracle and they're saying no the other group of doctors has misdiagnosed it or they treated it wrong or the person was just delusional. They're imaginate, they're
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hysterical. The mere fact that there's controversy over whether or not the person really was sick, really did recover, etc. means that's enough to put an asterisk next to the alleged miracle and we'll just put it on the shelf and
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not use that. We don't want to just take any old miracle claim that comes along.
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Even if an actual miracle occurred, we need something more than that, which is a pretty remarkable standard. She also notes that the medical miracles rely on cutting edge medicine, that a number of miracles followed unsuccessful surgeries and failed interventions, that the
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church relies on medical experts regardless of religion. And next, let's hear from manscior Robert Sarno, who worked for the Congregation for the Causes of Saints for almost 40 years investigating miraculous occurrences for the canonization process. Here are some
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clips from him. in four decades investigating miracles and and we're talking for the average listener who has no idea. I did not know anything about this as far as it pertains to the Vatican's research on this. But you
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don't come to these miracles lightly when you are exploring these miracles uh for this process. Uh you rely on doctor's reports. I mean this is a thorough process, right? You don't say this half-hazardly. This there is evidence for this stuff
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and it's not just a doctor's report. It's doctor's reports, medical and hospital records, uh exams that have been performed, medical exams of all different types. In other words, everything for and against the case has to be collected as evidence in a trial
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Speaker A
in a process and then uh sent to Rome for study and decision. So it's a very thorough process. Uh if and if those elements cannot be obtained the case can't be presented. In other words, those are requirements for a case to be
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bonafideed to be verifiable. Uh in other words, they have to be verified in fact.
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Well, the process starts at the local level. In other words, when a cause is started for the beatatification and canonization of someone, there is a, if you will, a lawyer or an advocate for the cause, for the petitioner of the
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cause called the postulator. And the postulator is the one who has the responsibility to keep his or her ears open to see or to hear rather if there are any miracles that could stand a canonical trial. And so people are
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encouraged to send in the information. I had this miracle from father Damian or through father Damian's intercession.
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And then it's the responsibility of the advocate or the lawyer of the cause to look into this case and see if it has some substance. In other words, number one, if it has substance, but number two, if that substance can be proven in
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a trial. It's not simply a question of their substance because there are many miracles that cannot be proven through a canonical trial because a canonical trial has very many uh requirements for it to go through. So basically what
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happens is the process on the miracle starts in the dascese where the miracle took place because the presumption of law is is where the miracle took place is where your evidence is going to be.
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And so once again upon the request of the postulator or the lawyer for the case, the bishop starts the process on the miracle. But again, he can only start the process on the miracle if he's got a fulfilled a requirement. In other
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words, it's called bonurus. In other words, fumus means the smoke. And bonurus means good law. The smoke of good law. If you want in gross terms, it means where there's smoke, there's fire.
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And so the bishop has to verify that there's some possibility of success before he starts this process. And the way he does that, as you mentioned, is on local level, he gets doctors to study the material. Now, it's very important
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to realize that a miracle has two elements. There's a scientific element and a theological element.
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The the scientific element is that there is no human explanation for what happened. And so therefore, you never ask the doctor is it a miracle. You ask the doctor what is the diagnosis? What is the prognosis?
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What was the therapy used? And doctor, can you explain the patient's condition from the therapy that was used? Once the doctor says I can explain it, the case is gone. Once he says I can't explain it, then you go to the next step to
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verify the theological element which is where the miracle is. In other words, can you prove that at the moment this scientifically inexplicable fact took place, someone requested the prayer or the intercession of the candidate for canonization.
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So for example, in the case of Mother Teresa in the miracle for her canonization, there was a fellow who had about 12 to 15 lesions in his brain. Uh and they were blocking the exit of the fluid that circulates around the brain
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and keeps the brain moist and functioning. And so this person was taken um in in an emergency way up to the operating room, but the doctor, the neurosurgeon couldn't operate on him to drain this liquid because he couldn't he
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couldn't be put under anesthesia because he had a defective trachea. And the anesthesiologist said, "Look, I'm not going to risk doing this because I could kill him right here and now with this defective trachea. we have to get a
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specialist and get him in here. So when the neurosurgeon went out to make a phone call to find the expert in in in esophageal realities or questions, we were able to verify that at that very moment on the
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other side of town in Santos, Brazil, his wife was crying in the parish church and she uh was approached by the pastor who asked what was going on. And when she told him that her husband was being operated at that very moment, the pastor
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said, "Well, let us pray for the intercession of Mother Teresa." And when the neurosurgeon walked back into the operating room, the patient who was basically in a coma just at the moment or just practically at the moment of death uh was awake and sitting up on
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the table and saying, "What am I doing here?" So what we had to do was coordinate the scientifically inexplicable fact that the water in his brain suddenly disappeared by itself with the fact that at that very moment his wife and the priest were praying for
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the intercession of Mother Teresa. And there is where the miracle lies. Proving cause and effect between asking for Mother Teresa's intercession and the person being cured.
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And there's records of this like this this is documented medically like the it has to be otherwise it's otherwise it's never used. Right?
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In other words, see the whole idea is to prove this in the external forum. In other words, it has to be measurable. It has to be scientific. It has to be factual. It can't be conjecture. It can't be what we call a moral miracle.
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It has to be an actual physical miracle which is verifiable and measurable both scientifically and jeritically.
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And it's not just one or two doctors, right? Um I is there a term is it the consultivo or what's the uh there's a term for all the doctors I read that well yeah it's called the medical board
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the consultica in Italian or what is best translated in English as the medical board but that's on the Roman level because what happens is on the local level all the evidence for and against the case is gathered during the
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trial and then the bishop sends all of the evidence to Rome and then it's studied Now when it gets to Rome, the first thing is studied by the medical board, a group of seven men and women who examine
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the case to see if there is indeed or if there is not a scientific explanation for what happened. Obviously, if they say there's no scientific explanation, then it goes to the theological consultters who are the ones to determine whether there is the
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theological element. In other words, the cause and effect between requesting the intercession and the change in the person's condition. And then finally, it goes to the cardinals and the bishops who study the entire case and make recommendations to the Holy Father who
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then makes the final decision as to whether the case is a bonafide miracle or not. There are many causes at the congregation in which there's no miracle for beatatification or no miracle for canonization. and the cause is blocked,
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stopped because there's no the requirements for beatatification or the requirements for canonization have not been met. Just recently, there's been a book that has come out. I forget the name of the author, but they did a piece of it on on the um on the uh in the New
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Speaker A
York Times, I believe this past week, and they spoke about the fact that this American cause of Amil Kapon, who was a a priest uh chaplain during the Korean War, and how his cause isn't going forward because there is, you know, you
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Speaker A
need uh recommendations and you need money and all this is all nonsense. A person who is a sports writer who writes a book is kind of like me writing a book on techniques of neuro neurosurgical operations.
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Speaker A
It has nothing to do with the reality of the situation. Causes don't go ahead simply because the requirements are not met. And in most cases, the reason why a cause doesn't go through is because the miracle has not occurred. See, and I
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think that's so interesting for people who listen and go, man, this sounds like a bunch of just, you know, hoie, I cannot believe, you know, I have trouble believing in miracles. I personally was just fascinated by how rigorous this
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process was. And even reading, in fact, correct me if I'm wrong, um, as you often do, father, but uh is uh the term devil's advocate originates from this process. Correct.
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Speaker A
Yes, it does. I got one right. All right. Okay. But the whole idea is now with the new legislation, the mentality is has to be everyone is a devil's advocate because no one has a right to be canonized.
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Right? And so when we talk about the process in the local church, it is not the process of collecting evidence so that the person can be canonized. It's the process of gaining evidence for and against the canonization so that the
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authorities in Rome can make an informed decision as to whether the person should be beatified and canonized. So in other words, starting from the bishop, all the priests and lay people involved in the process in the local church, all of the
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bishops and cardinals and priests and lay people involved in the process in Rome are all devil's advocates.
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Speaker A
Wow. Okay. I have so many questions. So, I want to do as much of a lightning round as I can on this. Um, all right.
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Speaker A
First question that just comes to mind here. You mentioned the criteria for miracles. It's it's physical. It's attributable to the saint. Um, this, you know, we're not talking emotional healing here. I can't be I can't submit a cause if I if people say I was a jerk
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and now I'm really nice. But well, there are a lot of people, for example, who have argued where they've asked the congregation, why can't you accept a miracle through the intercession of someone for a drug addict or an alcoholic, for example,
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Speaker A
who's reformed or whatever, uh these are referred to as moral miracles. And since they're not measurable, they're not confirmable, right? Uh the congregation has never accepted these moral or does not accept the moral of miracles. Not denying the
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Speaker A
fact that they could be miracles. Absolutely. No. Abs. Yeah. Absolutely. We're not denying the fact that they could be miracles, but we're just saying that the congregation says that for canonization and beatatification, a physical measurable uh reality is required. By the way, if
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you want to read more about the process, you can read from pages 9 to 14 of um Caleb Jackson's book that I've linked in the resource document, Science, Saints, and the Supernatural. I'm only going to go through two canonization healing
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Speaker A
miracles. Um but cuz I I don't know. I I like these. They have a special place in my heart and they affected me on my conversion. So, the first one is of Matthew. I mean, there are truckloads more. Anyway, check out the resources in
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Speaker A
the the resource document, but this one's from Matthew Peliseri. He is the person who was healed. Um the information here I'm taking from Kale Jackson's forthcoming book. and um Savario Gates 2004 book Maracoland there or whatever pages 47 to 40 56 this
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Speaker A
is the the Vatican approved healing miracle that led to the beatatification of St. Miriam Terresia Caramel. So Matthew Peliseri was born on July 9th, 1956 in Kerala, India with severe bilateral congenital club foot. That basically, you know, means that his foot
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Speaker A
is kind of like off to the side of his ankle. So instead of us, you know, our foot is kind of normal like this. It kind of comes off to the side. Um, so it kind of look, you know, it's like almost
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Speaker A
looks like a club. You know, his family could not afford surgery, so he received no surgical intervention for his condition. We have photographs of him in his childhood showing his club feet. And the ecclesiastical investigation collected multiple eyewitness
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Speaker A
testimonies from doctors, teachers, family members, etc. uniformly attesting that he had club feet and walked on the outer tops of his twisted feet with thick calluses, deformity of both souls turning inward and significant functional impairment. But then in 1970,
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his father began a 40-day vow in novena seeking the intercession of St. Mariam. On the 33rd night, Matthew reported a vivid vision of two nuns, one matching the image of St. Mariam, who touched his right leg and told him to stand. When he
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awoke, he rose to his feet and found his right foot straightened, instantaneously straightened. One year later, after his family repeated the vow in novena, seeking the intercession of St. Miam.
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His mother experienced a similar apparition on the 39th night and found that Matthew's left leg had likewise been straightened while he slept.
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Neighbors and teachers observed the immediate change and Matthew walked normally thereafter. Here, for example, is a testimony of Matthew's school teacher, a PD Itachan, who saw him less than 24 hours after his second healing on August 28th. I have known him since
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he was four or 5 years old, and at the time of his miraculous healing, I had always seen him walk with his deformity.
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Speaker A
Then, with my own eyes, I saw him walking with his right foot and heel, pressing correctly on the ground. After a year, a similar change happened to the left leg. Some local nuns would photograph Matthew in his new founded
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Speaker A
gate on Christmas Day 1972 which was succeeded by a physical examination from Dr. PC Sunny Pazaty on the same day. The medical evidence includes an orthopedic examination in 1972 and examinations in 1992 by orthopedic specialists appointed by the diosis and tribunal. We have a
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Speaker A
photo of him standing on straight and feet in 1972, an X-ray of his straighten feet from 1973 and a signed report from the doctor present at his birth that he was born with congenital club foot. The diosis and tribunal confirmed that one,
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Speaker A
the earlier deformity was unmistakable in childhood photographs. Two, the current appearance and function of his feet resembled those of treated clubfoot, and three, upon examination of Matthew, there were no surgical stars and no history of manipulation, casting, splinting, or any intervention. All of
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Speaker A
the eyewitness testimonies collected corroborate the instantaneous nature of the healing, and the medical board of the congregation for the causes of saints unanimously concluded after their investigation in the 1990s that the healing was instantaneous, permanent, and scientifically inexplicable. I mean
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Speaker A
after you know it would require the instantaneous rewiring and restructuring of the nerves and tendons and ligaments and muscles and bones in someone's foot.
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So the decree on the miracle was promulgated on June 28th 1999 and the beatatification of Miriam Theresa Caramel took place on April 9th 2000 in the presence of Pope John Paul II.
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Speaker A
Matthew himself attended the saint's later canonization as reported by the Indian Times. Here are photographs of Matthew Peliseri. This is the one on the left in his childhood. You can see his club feet here. Matthew is post healing.
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Speaker A
This is a photograph from December 1972. You can see his feet lay flat on the ground. Here's his feet in 1992 with roughly 90% correction. Resembling feet straightened with medical intervention.
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Speaker A
We have X-rays of his corrected feet. 1973. Here's the sign certificate from Matthew's pediatrician certifying that he was born with congenal bilateral club foot. Oh, and not just certifying that, but if you read the report, he also certifies the cure.
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Speaker A
Very cool and fun case if you ask me. Okay, so let's go on to St. Katherine Drexel's canonization miracle involving the regeneration of oicles, which utterly astonished the doctors and surgeon involved. Tonight, our second story takes us to Philadelphia to a
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family that prayed for just such a miracle and got one. You ready to go for a bike ride? Want to see the ducks down the river back there?
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Speaker A
Good. 35-year-old Robert Gutman lives with his family in Philadelphia. Pretty flowers there on the tree.
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Speaker A
He believes he owes his life to a miracle. 20 years ago, he was rushed to St.
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Christopher's Hospital in severe pain. What began as a simple earachche had turned into a brush with death.
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This young man had what we call an an acute mastoid infection. When the doctor examined his ear and the operating room table, he found that part of the bone that separates the ear to the brain had already been destroyed exposing the
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covering of the brain which is called the dura mater. Now, if the infection had progressed just a little bit more, the boy would have ended up with either a menenitis or a brain abscess and death.
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After the operation, the doctors told Robert's mother they believed they had saved her son's life, but his hearing would be permanently damaged. Mrs.
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Gutman, a devout Catholic, prayed for his recovery. Ear surgeon Dr. Miles Turtz had been forced to abandon the operation and was expecting further problems. There was so much disease. I made the judgment, the decision that the best I could do would
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be to clean it out as much as possible and stay away from all those things that could give him uh serious, significant, or conceivably life-threatening complications from the procedure.
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But there was a remarkable development on the very evening of the operation. Who's calling me?
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Somebody's calling my name. No, Bobby. It's just a noise outside. I heard somebody calling me. It's not you, Bobby. It's just somebody else in the corridor. Now, go back to sleep. Go back to sleep. Now, Mrs. Gutman was convinced that against
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all the odds, her son's hearing was perfect. Nurse, well, I remember the next morning when the doctor came in, my mother had told him that I can hear. And I remember him looking and saying, "No, we already told
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you that the there's too much damage there and that he'd never be able to hear at it at ear." But Mrs. Gutman's certainty that a miracle had happened to her son persuaded Dr. Tur to carry out an immediate test. The results showed a
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return to normal hearing. I have no explanation. If you ask me what did I do to get that outcome, I will tell you I didn't do anything to get that outcome.
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Thank you, doctor. So extraordinary was Robert Gutman's recovery that the arch dasis of Philadelphia set up a series of special tribunal hearings to examine the case in detail.
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The father, son, and holy ghost. Amen. We ask you for the strength and wisdom we need to carry out our task today.
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Pray this through Jesus. Acting on rules set down by Rome for the investigation of miracle claims. The tribunal set about interviewing key witnesses.
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Do you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth to all the questions placed before you?
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I do, father. What is your name? Beatric Marie Gutman. And what is your relationship with Robert?
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I am his mother. Dr. Tur set out the clinical picture to the tribunal. Well, the mastoidctomy showed an ear which was filled with granulation and a middle ear which was also filled with granulation and none of the oicles could
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be identified because of the disease. The oicles are small bones in the middle ear crucial for hearing. They seemed to have grown back.
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The doctor was absolutely amazed. When he examined him, he said, "I don't believe it. I don't believe it. He is actually reconstructing anatomy." I asked what that meant, and he said that the flesh was fusing together to repair the hole in the drum. He asked
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what we did that his other patients don't do. Both Robert and I said, "We pray Having exhausted all the medical possibilities, the tribunal required evidence that prayer had been instrumental in the cure. Mrs. Gutman told the tribunal how she had turned to
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the sisters of the blessed sacrament order near her home. Sister, may I please speak with you?
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She knew us because her son had been an altar boy here. And so she came to us to ask the Lord to help him bear the pain.
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That was the first thing. Then she asked if he could only be well. The nuns prayed to the founder of their order, Mother Katherine Drexel, who died in 1955. She was an ays who gave away a fortune to the poor. The sisters
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believed strongly in her power to bring about healings. I can't explain the hearing. Uh the only way I can explain it is that the hearing was lost and uh and now it's there. Um whatever he was doing in that middle
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ear. I uh well I would love to take a look at that middle ear. How is his hearing?
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The tribunal agreed that Robert should be asked to submit to another examination of his ear, which would show once and for all if the damage really had repaired itself.
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People at the sun and all, huh? It was now 13 years since the original operation.
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A new test on Robert's ear was conducted with the latest technology. The examination was carried out by one of America's foremost ear specialists, Professor Louis.
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Against all expectations, there were no signs of the earlier damage. This is the eardrum here.
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This is the malas here, which is the first uh icicle or bone. And we could when we examined Robert Guthman we could see this tempanic membrane or the eardrum which appeared normal. We could also see the malas. And
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so just from physical exam externally it looked quite normal. What's the explanation from no oicles in 74 to normal ocles in 87. I keep repeating uh I don't make the judgment what's a miracle and what's not, but it's
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certainly not explainable by my medical career. We as non-clergy did not have the right to deal in miracles, but to the best of our knowledge, we felt it was something that we could not explain.
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The Arch Dascis of Philadelphia had shown there was a miracle case to answer. Now it was the turn of Rome to provide the final say.
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The Vatican's archives contain the records of miracle investigations going back to the 16th century.
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The evidence in the Guttleman case was painstakingly re-examined by Rome's own medical and theological experts.
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The process is rigorous and many cases fail at this final stage. Quite an amount of study by highly qualified experts is necessary. That is the most important requirement because we do believe in miracles but we are not eager to presume a miracle. It has to be
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proved and proved up to the hill. If there's any lingering doubt, we will just cast it out.
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The next stage was for Robert's case to be heard by the cardinals of the congregation for the causes of saints in the Vatican's apostolic palace.
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We were allowed a brief glimpse of their secret deliberations. It was this committee that passed Robert's case unanimously in 1987.
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After all the preparations, it goes to the holy father and he signs a decree.
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He is ultimately in all these matters the final judge. When he puts his signature on it, the thing is official and only then it's official.
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Robert's cure was declared miraculous by the pope. The decree put Katherine Drexel on the road to saintthood. She was beatified in a ceremony in Rome in 1988 attended by the Gutman family.
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Well, the guys at work were uh kind of shocked when I ended up on the 6:00 news. They uh they looked at you and they sort of said, "Well, gee, Bob, you're the regular guy. You know, you go
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out and you you know, you have a couple beers with the boys and you know, how could this be?" you know, and it again, it gets very kind of difficult because God doesn't just show up to the holy
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people or to, you know, the worst of people. There are lots of other cool ones that Caleb Jackson covers regarding saintly intercession, including ones from like St. Charbell. So, definitely, you know, check out the resource uh in the
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resource document. I'm not going to go through the cool one that I was going to go through because I'm going much longer than I anticipated. Okay. Vindicatory implications. Well, saintly intercession is just like manifestally vindicated here, right? God is going out of his way
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to systematically answer prayers, asking the saints for intercession. If you're a Protestant who disbelieves in saintly intercession or thinks it's inappropriate, even idolatrous, God has refuted you. All right, let's go to Kalanda Kalanda Kalanda Kalanda Alana, Honduras, San Salvador, El Salvador,
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Manawa, Nicarawa, San Jose, Costa Rica, Panama, Panama. Okay, sorry. Sorry y'all. We are going into the um the wee hours of the night and I get a little bit tipsy when I when that happens. So here I'm drawing on Caleb Jackson's
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paper here linked in the resource document as well as um Caleb's chapter. Um so yeah, so as with St. Joseph of Cubertino, I'm not claiming to decisively prove a miracle here. But the testimonial evidence is once again like
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seemingly overwhelming and the naturalist is reduced to positing yet another seemingly grand conspiracy to explain away the evidence. And this is why I keep emphasizing that naturalists don't just posit a single conspiracy to explain away the miraculous evidence.
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They need like the most insane conspiracy of conspiracies the world has ever witnessed where the world is like basically screaming like this is true but like no you guys are just pausing coincidence upon coincidence upon conspiracy upon conspiracy like liar
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liar liar liar fabricating the medical report like okay so here's the gist Miguel Juan Peliser of Kanda Spain had his right leg amputated below the knee in 1637 lived publicly as an amput for more than 2 years and then suddenly
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possessed a living right leg again on March 29th 1640. Jackson writes that in the case of the miracle of Kanda, the historian has the luxury of reviewing documentation that was recorded, printed, and widely circulated in close proximity to when the miracle was said
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to have occurred. Our earliest available record derives from an affidavit signed on April 2nd, 1640 from Miguel Andrew, royal notary of Masalon, who would take down the testimony of several witnesses claiming to have witnessed the miracle only 3 days prior. Most extensive is the
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official trial record produced two months later in June 1640 where a collection of two dozen eyewitnesses would be deposed during the Spanish Inquisition's role in investigating the miracle. So let's survey the evidence first. Medical evidence for the amputation. Peliser suffered a severe
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injury in 1637 when a cartwheel crushed his right leg. He was admitted to the Valencia hospital on August 3rd and later traveled to the hospital of Our Lady of Grace in Zaragoa or like Zaragoa. By the time he arrived there,
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the leg was blackened in gangriness and so required amputation. Five hospital witnesses testified to the amputation.
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Dr. Juan de Estaga, the surgeon responsible for it. Dr. Diego Miraeloo, the surgeon who assisted. Juan Lorenzo Garcia, the surgical assistant who handled and buried the severed leg.
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Father Pascal Decacho, the hospital priest, and another nurse or attendant. Mello explicitly testified that Estana decided amputation was necessary and that he was present at the cutting and assisted in the execution. He saw it cut off. He further testified that an
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attendant carried the amputated leg away for burial. Garcia gave still more direct testimony. The opponent saw the leg cut and helped to cauterize The opponent is the one who took the said leg after it had been cut off and
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carried it together with another companion and they took it to be buried in the cemetery of the said holy hospital as indeed they buried it.
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Father Pascal Delcato likewise recalls seeing Pelis after surgery. He saw in a bed in the surgical ward a young man whose leg had been cut off. The opponent saw the said severed leg on the floor.
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So there is sworn testimony under oath from the two operating surgeons. The man who handled the severed limb and a hospital priest who administered the pelisair after the medical personnel knew Pelisair well. The obvious naturalistic explanation, of course, is
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that well, someone else was amputated, but the doctors just later confused that person with Peliser, but multiple lines of evidence conflict this, including ones we'll see later. Pelis remained in the hospital for months after surgery, receiving prolonged post-operative care,
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making misidentification a remote possibility. As Jackson notes, Estonia Melo did not merely perform a single operation, but met Miguel multiple times over long periods of time. This is also attested to by other hospital staffers like Pascal Delo, who claimed to have
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routinely cared for Miguel during his months-long period of conolescence at the hospital. During the trial, Estana states that he continued to treat Miguel, even following his status as an outpatient. Estana remembered Peliser particularly well because of his because
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of an unusual habit. Peliser repeatedly rubbed oil from the lamps of our lady at the pillar onto his stump. Estana warned him against doing so. Most importantly, Estana expressly addressed the identity question. The deponent knows well that the young man from whom he cut the leg
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and the one who has now been shown to him has has been and is one of the same person and not different. So Estania had operated on Pelisair, treated him for months, encountered him afterward, remembered a distinctive feature of
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their doctor patient relationship, and expressly identified Peliser at the trial as one in the same man he'd amputated. Peliser was also a public amputee for over 2 years. After leaving the hospital, Peliser received a wooden leg and crutches and became a public
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beggar in Zerugosa. He was assigned a place to beg at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Pillar and also worked there lighting lamps. So he wasn't hidden from scrutiny. In fact, he was known to clergy, congregants, hospital workers,
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inkeepers, and passers by. He also obtained an official begging license shortly after discharge from the hospital. This is especially important because regulation of begging existed precisely to distinguish genuine disability from fraudulent begging.
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Spain had implemented systems involving registration, investigation, and in some places medical examination of the claimed infirmity since they had a problem of people faking injuries to make money. The fraud hypothesis would require Pelicair to conceal a healthy folded leg for years while working
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publicly as a cathedral lamp lighter, returning to doctors for treatment, publicly exposing what witnesses took to be his stump, traveling considerable distances, and sometimes sleeping outdoors in the hospital courtyard where accidental discovery would have been an obvious risk. Numerous witnesses saw and
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touched the stump. Pela left Zarago for Colonda shortly before the miracle. Witnesses in Col to his amputated stump include relatives and longtime neighbors who could not plausibly have mistaken his identity and could not plausibly be mistaken about feeling and touching an
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amputated stump. As Jackson writes, on April 1st, 1640, only 3 days after the miracle, the parish priest at Mazalion, Don Marco Seguer, traveled to Col with his notary Miguel Andreo to investigate the rumors of the miracle leg. A
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two-page affidavit was produced the following day summarizing the sworn testimonies of 10 witnesses who claimed to have seen Miguel both before and after the miraculous healing. The canonical inquiry two months later records numerous witnesses with firstirhand knowledge of the uncovered
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stump including Estana Milo Garcia Delgato Peliser's parents, the family servant Baracina and his wife Gorano Felz and others. Justice Martin Corano testified that he had seen Peliser with the right leg amputated and had seen and touched the cut portion of it. Francisco
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Felles testified that immediately before Pelisa left Zaragoa for Col, he saw his leg uncovered and saw and touched the stump of it. On the very evening of March 29th, the night of the miracle, Miguel Barachina and his wife testified
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to seeing and touching the stump. The said Juan Miguel Peliser removed a wooden leg he was wearing and had his leg cut off below the knee and he and his wife touched the place where it had been cut. This happened shortly before
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Pelisa went to bed. So, we have a large number of multimodal sworn testifiers who saw Miguel in intimate settings, touched his cut stump, and gave their testimony shortly after the event. The miracle itself, so this is March 29th,
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1640. Around 10 p.m., Py went to bed, leaving his wooden leg and crutch behind. Roughly half an hour later, his mother entered and saw two feet protruding beneath the covering. She called Peliser's father and they woke their son. Piser reported that he had
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just dreamed that our lady at the pillar was anointing his missing limb with oil.
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Neighbors, including those who had examined the stump hours earlier, were immediately summoned. The restored leg was initially bluish black, cold, several centimeters shorter, inflamed, atrophied, and difficult to move. And also, like, think about what this implies. If Miguel had simply been
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binding his leg up behind him the whole time, Peliser would be subjecting himself to repeated torture for two full years just to be a beggar instead of returning to his nice family farm. And yet we're to believe that someone so
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psychologically unstable that they tortured themselves for two years, pulled off this seemingly insane conspiracy whereby he bribed a dozen or two people, including well-off, high-ranking members of society, which he could totally afford as a beggar, of course, and coordinated their testimony
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so consistently that it fooled an Inquisition tribunal. I mean, come on. Over the following days, his leg recovered color and mobility, and Pelisair eventually regained full use of it. Two local surgeons examined it, and one reportedly pierced the foot to
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establish that it consisted of genuine living tissue. The restored leg also bore distinctive marks corresponding to Peliser's original limb, including a scar from a childhood injury in which he had previously broken the leg and scars from sores and treatment associated with
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his pre period in the hospital. Witnesses identified several pre-existing scars and marks on the restored limb. So, the limb was identified as possessing features belonging to the same leg that that had existed before the amputation. As I've emphasized, the evidence is recorded
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almost immediately on April 2nd, 1640, only days after the event. We have the affidavit that that early record states that witnesses had seen and touched the amputated limb and were prepared to swear to their testimony. A larger formal inquiry followed in Zaragoza
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involved representatives connected with both major churches of the city, doctors and university professors, three notaries, two dozen deposed witnesses.
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Witnesses were brought before Peliser shown his restored leg and questioned concerning his identity and exactly what they previously observed. After an investigation lasting nearly 11 months, the archbishop formally recognized the event as miraculous on April 27th, 1641.
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It's also reasonable to think that hospital records would have existed and been available during the contemporary investigation, but the relevant records have not survived. um they therefore cannot now serve as independent direct evidence, but you know, it would have
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been exceedingly strange like not to have relied on them in the investigation. Broad and misremembering seem pretty implausible. I mean, the main skeptical hypothesis is that Peliser's original fracture healed naturally and that he spent years pretending to be an ampute by folding
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the lower leg beneath his clothing. But this requires either a bizarre string of convergent coincidences or a massive conspiracy or mixture of both. Like, you know, he fooled or bribed the Spanish government officials to obtain his official begging license. He fooled or
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bribed both the surgeons or they bizarrely misidentified him as well as the man who buried the seed them the hospital priest also and the attending nurse. He somehow fooled or bribed like a dozen or two people into thinking they
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saw and even felt his cut stump 10 of them within 3 days. Like that's pretty insane info security. He accomplished all of this despite being like a two-year long self torture to the point of atrophying shortening and turning
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bluish black his leg. All to achieve the noble status of a beggar when he could have just returned to his family farm.
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Like is that huge concoction of cope possible? I mean, sure, sure, it is possible. I'll grant you that. But like, am I going to bet my soul on it? I mean, probably not. Again, I was aware of this
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case and it caused me some cognitive dissonance when I was not a theist. Um, and this is another one of those cases where it's like I wouldn't expect you to be convinced by it alone, but it is pretty strong. I mean, like, dear
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skeptic, you do just have you have to admit you take on boatloads of coincidences that aren't the natural interpretation of the data. Like, you are just going against like what all of the pieces of data just like seem to
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converge on, right? instead you're trying to like desperately cling to your prior theory and just like posit the most well not the most crazy conspiracy that was with like Mirina and Padre Pio and all the other stuff that you're
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going to say but again it's just like I use this case as like a mutual reinforcement right uh it's just like yet another bizarre string of coincidences or conspiracy that you're going to have to posit how many of these
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are you going to do bro especially before you start to feel the cognitive dissonance and like I also think that if you don't have like skeptical prior right if you're not like this hardened naturalist from the outset Um
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and if you instead think for instance the resurrection happened I mean dude dude you know what you know what I'm going to say okay so the vindicatory implications of this um like saintly intercession of course like he's praying
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to our lady of the pillar so you know this was brought through repeated prayers to our lady of the pillar and it occurred in the context of like a dream of our lady of the pillar anointing him with oil. So we got saintly intercession
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we got marry devotion we got marry intercession being vindicated here seemingly and then turning to personal accounts. So, these are ones where there's no medical documentation, granted, but I don't know, it's still corroborating evidence and, you know, it's hard to see how these guys could be
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honestly mistaken. And, you know, I just think it's not like, you know, just go around, ask people, touch grass, ask people. You'll get like a lot of direct eyewitness reports to things that if the contents of the reports are true, it's
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just like demonstrabably a miracle, right? Just go out and touch grass. Like my best friend Noah McKay, like he knows someone who just witnessed instantaneously a fractured bone immediately after prayer heal. It's like what what's going on? Okay, so I mean
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obviously that's like you're getting it now like through third-hand testimony or something like that. But my point is just like go out ask people talk to people. So um here here are some cases like John Topping is an adjunct
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instructor and pastor with a podcast called Ultimate Questions that primarily focuses on the resurrection. But in one episode, he brought on one of his past students, Eden Maltby, to share the following firsthand testimony to the instantaneous healing of severe eczema
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all over someone's arms and legs. I was quite young. I I was going to the camp. I wasn't even a leader. I don't know, I was like 15, maybe even younger.
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And um a bunch of us just decided that God can do miracles. And we had heard about it. And so we said, we're just going to go around and if if we find people who need a miracle in their life,
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we're going to pray for them. And so we encountered this one girl who had eczema. and severe eczema like all over her arms and her legs. And so we laid hands, we put our hands on her and and
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started praying and and at the end of the prayer, you know, said, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, be healed." And we lifted our hands off of her. And the eczema was gone. And it was almost spooky, right?
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Like when you see something like that, you were like, "Oh, oh my gosh, like this works. This is real. Let's do it again." You know, like very, very excited. So, so you could actually So, it was like visibly seen. You could actually see it.
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Oh, absolutely. It was And after you pray, it's not there anymore. Yes. Exactly. So, it's not really just like you having faith. Oh, a miracle happened. It's like, no, you saw it happen.
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No, I physically saw it. And it wasn't even just me, right? It was like this group of people. And even I remember the uh the girl, she um was a little bit younger than me, but I knew her through
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camp. And um she was even like astounded, you know, like looking at her own body in tears like how is this how did this just happen to me? You know, it was very very cool.
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Interestingly, a similar report is given in evidentially compelling religious experiences, the moral status of naturalism, a paper by Dr. Travis Dums.
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He's a philosopher. John White is a psychiatrist and Christian author. He describes an apparently miraculous healing in which he and his spouse participated. This is from 1988. I remember praying with my wife for a 2-year-old child in Malaysia. Her body
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was almost completely covered with raw weeping eczematis areas. We began to pray and extended our hands to lay them on her. The instant our hands touched her, she fell into profound and relaxed slumber in her parents' arms. But there
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was more to follow. I shall never forget our sense of exhilaration and excitement as the weeping areas began to dry up, their borders shrinking visibly before our eyes like the shores of lakes in time of drought. A person who has never
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experienced the impact of such a sight has no idea of its effect on one's emotions. being a medical doctor, White presumably is a competent judge of the apparently non-natural manner in which healing took place, especially with regard to speed and timing. So, he's
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like, "My dude, go out, touch grass, like, you know." Finally, I'll keep some of the details of this one anonymous because I haven't asked permission to share names or locations and what not, but someone I've personally interviewed, call him D, um was a prison chaplain.
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When two inmates were allowed to box each other in the boxing match, one of the prisoners completely broke his nose, it was visibly mangled and slanted around 45° to the side. 5 minutes after the nose breaking, D heard a voice
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telling him to pray for the prisoner's nose. He ignored the voice, but he heard it a second and then a third time. So he asked the prisoner if he could pray for his healing. In front of several witnesses, D prayed for the prisoner's
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nose to heal. And over the course of around five seconds, visibly witnessed it move back into place and the swelling subside. When the emergency personnel arrived because they had called 911, it's like, "This dude's got a broken nose. What are we going to do?" Um, they
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were told to leave because they weren't needed anymore. So again, like, you know, I I don't expect these to like immediately convince a skeptic, but like dude, like for some of these, it's like very difficult to be honestly misguided
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about. Seems to be like demonstrabably naturalistically inexplicable phenomena. oftenimes happening in like the context of some kind of religious experience and like you know some of you are now like being able to just like divine from the armchair that so many different people
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that you don't know are just like liars and fraudsters and all this stuff but again I give those as just corroborating or kind of circumstantial evidence that like these things seem to happen my friend come on like get get with the
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program get with the picture God loves you and he wants you to believe in him okay on to Marion apparitions so the party is just getting started my friend we are only two subsections in and let's get on to Marion apparitions these are
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among among my favorites because I love our glorious blessed mother. First up with Fatima and of course, you know, I've got to let the man himself introduce the case.
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So, it was 1917. So, the first apparition of our lady to these three shepherd children took place on May 13th of 1917. So, that was three days ago, we had the feast of our lady commemorating that. Starting on May 13th, our lady
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comes and she sets a schedule with the Sears and they announce this schedule in advance where basically on the 13th month for six consecutive months starting in May 13th, so five subsequent months they were going to meet same
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time, place and location and basically converse with our lady and then the lady was going to reveal to them what she wanted from them. So this progresses and by the third of these apparitions that took place in July, our lady revealed to
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them a secret which was guarded very carefully until about 10 years later in 1927 when it was disclosed privately for the first time. But and then also she publicly Lucia in front of the crowd and the large crowd started gathering at all
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these apparitions. In front of the crowd she says perform a miracle so that all may believe that you really appear.
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Okay. And then the lady said, "Okay, in three months I'm going to perform a miracle so all will believe." So that would coincide with the sixth and the final apparition on October 13th. So then October 13th comes and basically a
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100,000 people between 30,000 and 100,000. So estimates vary, but um I think actually the more credible estimates are towards the higher end of that range.
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Wow. But the um between 30,000 and 100,000 people arrive at the Kova despite it being heavy rain all day and so people are getting soaked and then basically noon rain abruptly stops.
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Cloud parts the children say that the lady has appeared to them again then say oh look at the sun. So crowd turns around and then based on the overwhelming consensus of witnesses where we have lots and lots of witness
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testimony and this includes highly educated people, it includes skeptics, it includes Freemasons, it Portugal's major newspapers. They describe a solar spectacle that lasted approximately 10 minutes where the sun first so they say in at sometimes in patches of cloudless
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sky the midday sun appeared as a pale moonlike disc that was painless to gaze at and that's basically like 100% consensus and then people are looking at the sun for 10 minutes where we all know it's going to cause you know retinopathy
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phototohobia like it's going to cause people to have gaze like involuntary reflexes where they do gaze aversion.
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So, it's just but it's totally impossible. But nonetheless, the people are staring at it and it's a pale moonlike disc. Then it does rotational motion. So, it appears to be spinning extremely rapidly upon itself and specifically emitting firework wheels.
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So, like almost like sparks and so that's what's creating apparent rotation of the solar disc and it's casting colors that are reflecting off of the environment. And so, you have people who say they wanted to avoid sungazing effects. So their back is faced to the
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sun and they say they see the colors reflecting off of the faces of the crowd. You have one guy named Dr. Jose Garrett who he's sitting there. He's staring at this through his binoculars.
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Everything around him has turned purple. So he sets down his binoculars. He says, "Am I suffering a retinal defect?" Closes his eyes. No after images. Turns around so his back's facing the sun.
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Opens them and everything is still purple. So purple's reflecting off of the landscape. We look at three points.
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the sun appears to descend from the sky as if it's going to crush the crowd and the crowd thinks it's like the end of the world like it's this like apocalyptic event and so to approach and then to recede. Okay, people feel this
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sensation of warmth and many of the people who said their clothes were soaking wet at the beginning of the event report that they're instantly dried, okay, by the end of the event. So they were saturated with water before
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and they're instantly dried after. And this uh spectacle was witnessed not just by observers that were gathered at the Kova but in fact it was witnessed by distant witnesses. So for instance in a city called Alberatel which is 15
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kilometers away from the Kova we have two independent groups of people reporting like exactly the same phenomenology in the direction of Fatima rather than towards the solar azimuth.
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And we have that in a city 40 kilometers away in Leeria. We have it in Sal Pedro Dom. We have it in Ming to the south.
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Everybody also converging towards seeing this in the direction of Fatima. And we can prove that there was something objective that had to have happened, not just something psychological that happened on this date. By many arguments, the vistant witnesses already
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be sufficient. The degree of convergence between as large and diverse a crowd should already be sufficient. But we actually have photographic proof. And so, Father Dr. Dur has um who's a brilliant brilliant man who published a peer-reviewed article in the journal
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faith and science. He went and he looked at photographs. Now they couldn't take photographs of the sun due to the equipment that they had available at the time, but they took photographs of the of the crowd. Father Dr. Door realized was that
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there was information that was encoded in these photographs that could actually be used to corroborate the witness testimony. And so in two respects. So first was he realized that just using pretty standard photoggramometric techniques that had been used for over
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hundred years, he could look at these photographs and reconstruct based on the cast shadows in the photographs, he can infer what the vanishing point was and then he could infer the primary directional light source in the photographs what angular elevation was
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it at. And so the genius idea he has is just to check. And then he goes and he says, "Oh, it could be at a maximum of like 30 degrees angular elevation, probably at like 27 degrees." So 32
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degrees is probably the maximum. 27 degrees is probably the most likely angular elevation. But we can go check based on astronomical data that the true sun could have been no lower than 42 degrees, right? Given this this was
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happening at solar noon when the sun was at its zenith. So that means there was like a point emitter directional light source that was not the sun that had formed that was casting all the shadows on that crowd. So it's just totally
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imposs and it's lower in the sky corresponding to the crowd saying that it appeared that it was coming down and descending on the horizon. Then we also can look at the same photographs and we see wet dry contrast patterns on
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people's clothes that don't make sense as anything other than basically infrared emission from that directional light source. So this is what father Dr.
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door calls like infrared shadows which corroborates all this testimony about instantaneous drying and the sensation of warmth that people experienced. So we're already physically corroborating what was reported by we have a representative sample from a crowd of 100 thousand of like like basically I've
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personally reviewed probably like 150 witness testimonies, right? We what's what's also reported by distant witnesses and the distant witnesses it's even better because like you take somebody like in Leeria and it's this woman and two construction workers looking towards these mountains that are
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interposed between her location and the coa and what she says she sees is at about noon a flash of red light above the mountain. Now that's not from her staring at the sun. It's also obviously not from her having talked to people and
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then having like suggestion or like having memory effects or anything like that because who's going to say, "Yeah, oh, that giant solar miracle that all the people described that involved like the changing colors and the cl the sun
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descending from the sky. Yeah, I'm going to be suggested into thinking I saw a red flash, right?" No. But notice if there was a localized emitter of light at the COA that was shooting out multicolored light based on how the
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scattering of light works, just like how when the sun's low in the horizon and its light has to go through a lot of air mass, it turns red.
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What we would expect in long distance scattering from this localized emitter is for there to be this red diffuse illumination that reach these places like Leeria when it comes over at this grazing angle on this mountain. So we're
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getting like undesigned coincidences between distant witness testimony that only make sense given the physical interpretation of the event. So basically we can prove that date time location predicted three months in advance by the sears in the context of
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these credible apparitions which there's no viable naturalistic explanation for them and we literally those it literally happened. There was an unprecedented objective atmospheric event of some kind that occurred that was localized specifically to the KOA. So it's an
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extraordinary miracle. To elaborate I will draw or quote extensively from four articles but primarily first two. Of course, Ethan Mus's two articles on Fatima. He's working on lots of others, by the way. So, stay tuned. Um, my post
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with Noah on Veritata Splendor and St. Beluga's article on Lady of Fatima, Queen of the Heavens. So, and see also the resource document for links to these and a bunch of other videos on Fatima and whatnot. So, first up, we have the
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apparition phenomena themselves. The experiences follow a pre-announced schedule. Lucia dos Santos, Francisco MTO, and Justinta Marto reported six apparitions between May and October 1917. After the first apparition on May 13th, Lucia said the figure instructed them to return to the Kova Deera on the
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13th of each month for 6 months. The sequence subsequently followed that schedule except that the children were detained by a local official on August 13th. They reported a makeup apparition at Bellinos on August 19th. The children were interrogated both separately and
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together shortly after their experiences. Their testimonies are strikingly convergent. They described a woman of extraordinary beauty who was more brilliant than the sun, sometimes bright enough to blind them. When questioned separately, they agreed on numerous details. She arrived from and
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departed toward the east, stood over a home, wore a white dress and a cloak with gold accents, held a white rosary, and adopted particular hand positions when speaking when silent. Their experiences had a variably multimodal character. Lucia reported seeing,
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hearing, and conversing with the figure. Justinta saw and heard, but did not speak to her. Francisco saw her but did not hear her. There was no tendency toward harmonization of these discrepancies. Francisco consistently admitted that he heard nothing. The
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children were honest and not suggestable. The children were interrogated separately and together by clergy doctors academics lawyers and hostile officials. Dr. Dr. Manuel Nunes Formagau concluded from the children's responses and even more from their attitude and way of proceeding in all
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the circumstances in which they found themselves, it emerges with a clarity that seems to exclude all doubt, their perfect and absolute sincerity, the naturalness and frankness with which they express themselves, the simplicity and counter they display, the indifference and disinterest they show
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as to whether they're whe as to whether or not they are believed. Justinda's extreme shyness, the apparent contradictions easily explained into which they fall and which absolutely exclude any combination between the children are all indications that the children possess to the highest degree
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one of the indispensable requirements for a witness to be trustworthy. truthfulness. The children also continue their claims despite punishment, humiliation, threats of damnation, threats of being killed, arrest, etc.
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There there's no chance that they're lying. They enacted perceptual corresping around them as they're having these like collective multimodal experiences and witnesses are like observing what they're doing and saying what they're doing. When questioned, Lucia said the figure's luminosity was difficult to
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endure. So, a feature she reported privately, extraordinary brightness, was accompanied by observable behavior during the experiences themselves that were like enacting corlaries of what their perceptual experiences were like.
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conversational cadence. Witnesses saw Lucia speak aloud in a question and answer cadence, pausing as though listening and then responding, and some were close enough to hear her actual questions and petitions, and their recollections corresponded almost identically with Lucia's subsequent
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accounts. So, Lucia is perfectly sane with normal memory. There was external physical corroboration for the apparition phenomena. At the beginning and end of the apparitions, witnesses repeatedly saw a mysterious, apparently sourceless cloud or column of smoke rising from the home oak. During the
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October apparition, Jose Garrett independently described seeing a thin tenuous bluish column of smoke rise above the children disappear and recur three times, though he could identify no source. On August 13th, while the children were being detained, could not
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attend the COA, witnesses who were at the COA because people still showed up reported too loud detonations at the whole milk without an apparent source, causing the crowd to scatter in fear.
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Explanations, I mean, lying is off the table. So, you know, are they undergoing group hallucinations? Are are they just like imagining the phenomena but can't tell the difference between imagination and reality? Neither is a plausible fit for the data. group hallucinations don't
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happen and certainly not and certainly not six times following a predictable schedule with like this super convergent content. Neither is a delusive imaginative trance a plausible explanation is I think we can just like redescribe with different terminology what it is
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that we're positing and then we'll see that it's actually like something where there's less precedent for this than there is for hallucination right for the group elicitation hypothesis.
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So basically you have people predictably within a limited context and not outside of it. Collectively entering into delusive transances where they can't tell the difference between perception and imagination. And then having imaginative content that is very coherent that develops progressively
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over time in a way that keeps building upon itself that doesn't wind up running into like just like obvious inongruities and inconsistencies and like things that are like clearly the products of the imagination of a child and then is
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reliably and repeatedly basically infallibly transmitting those contents without anyone consciously recognizing that this is what's going on like distributing it between people between multiple people and then you're having them also behave in ways that have like per like basically they're
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enacting perceptual corlaries of the imaginative experiences that they're having and then also just like qualitatively when you look at the dialogue it just doesn't look like imagined content.
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That's one thing that I would just encourage people to do is just go look at the DCF transcripts and read through the interrogation transcripts and then just ask yourself based off of what I know about children and what children
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imagine, does this look like the sort of content that they would imagine that they would come up with? And there's just a certain level of subtlety and sophistication and simplicity to the interactions that just makes me very skeptical. And also like the focus
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and priorities is so different from what I would expect from these kids and their cultural context. And it's a lot of that qualitative stuff that also enhances my confidence. But regardless, hallucination is like a thing we know happens. And we
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have lots of people that have schizotypal personalities and blah blah blah blah blah. Like it's really bad fit for the data for reasons I explain in the post, but it's something for which it happens. These dusive trans things, I
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can't find any examples of them happening. See, as that indicates, the muse argues that there isn't scientific precedent for group delusive imaginative transances that are accompanied by enactments of perceptual corlaries that follow a repeated schedule and whose content is either strikingly convergent
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or almost immediately infallibly transmitted across the diluted members of the group who somehow can't tell the difference between imagination reality despite being over the age when humans reliably discriminate between them and despite evincing a clear lack of suggestability. And neither I nor Muse
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nor the latest advanced paid version of my consulted LLM found credible precedence thereof. That sort of thing just seems completely unknown to contemporary science. So like you seem to be positing an utterly scientifically unprecedented string of insane coincidences here. Of course, you could
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posit like a once in a millennium psychological phenomenon happening to three children on six different occasions following a predictable pattern to explain away this single facet of Fatima. And then you'll, you know, you'll probably pause it once in a
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millennium anomaly to explain away the sun miracle itself and then all the manifold facets thereof. And then after that, you'll posit the yet further insane coincidence between these ones in a millennium anomalies by way of a three-month and advanced prediction
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specific to exact date, time, and location. Like, you can do all that if you want, but it doesn't seem credible.
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And even if it were credible, like you're out of insane Catholic miracle related coincidences, my friend. I mean, as I said, like you were out a long time ago in any case.
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Advanced prediction. On July 14th, Father Manuel Marquez Ferrer recorded Lucia saying that she had asked the apparition to perform a miracle so that all may believe. To which the apparition replied, "In 3 months, I will make everyone believe." On September 27th,
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Formau recorded Lucia saying, "The apparition declared that on October 13th, she will make all the people believe that she really appears." On October 11th, 2 days before the event, former asked Lucia whether she feared what the crowd might do if nothing
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extraordinary occurred. She answered, "I am not afraid at all." The advanced prediction is also why tons of people showed up at the co. So, um, let's go to the sun miracle. On October 13, somewhere between 30,000 and 100,000
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people were present at the Kova, including believers and skeptics, journalists lawyers scientists and others. Avalo Delmea, a journalist for the anti-clerical newspaper Ocelo, described the rain abruptly stopping and the sky clearing. Then the entire immense crowd turn toward the turns
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toward the sun, which appears free of clouds. The star resembles a plate of dull silver, and one can gaze at its disc without the slightest effort. It does not burn. It is not blind. He then described the crowd staring into the
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blue sky while the object underwent extraordinary pulsating or dancing movement. Dr. After Gonalo Xavier Delmea Garrett, professor of natural science at Quimbra, summarized the phenomenon as lasting 8 to 10 minutes. The object became moonlight and easy to view,
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rotated rapidly on three occasions, emitted light from its edges, similar to firework wheels, and bathed the environment in stunning hues of violet and orange coloration. Joseé Garrett described a pearly disc rotating at a dizzying speed and then apparently
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rushing downward toward the earth, provoking an enormous cry of fear from the crowd. The crowd described a three-fold descent of the quote unquote sun. This quote unquote sun, the localized emitter, the object could be stared at painlessly, even in clear or
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cloudless sky. This is not naturalistically explicable. You cannot stare painlessly at the midday sun. This is all happening at midday around noon.
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You cannot stare painlessly at the midday sun at its zenith against a clear blue cloudless sky. Some distinguish the object from the sun. For example, biod described quote a luminous disc the size of a large host as if it had detached
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itself from the sun or rather placed itself before it unquote. People deliberately did not stare at the object and still shared the same phenomenology.
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Carlos Silva said, "I did not look at the sun to avoid optical illusions and nevertheless saw different colors in the faces of the huge audience and especially in the white felt hat of a lady." Manuel Gonzalez Jr. kept his eyes
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always fixed on the home oak and without deliberately looking the sun nevertheless saw the people, trees, and surrounding scenes successively change color when everything appeared purple.
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Joseé Garrett turned away, closed his eyes, covered them with his hands, then reopened them, and still found the landscape bathed in purple. It later the surroundings then shifted to yellow.
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Even Scott Alexander grants that the degree of convergence in the testimonies is about what we'd expect for an objective event. We have distant witness. There were two separate groups at Alberel about 10 miles away which reported who reported the event. One
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hilltop group of about 20 people described the object rotating and apparently plunging toward the earth three times which exactly coincides with what people at the Kova attested to.
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Another group in the village including the school boy Ignasio Lorenzo and his teacher reported the same pale non-blinding rotating object, its apparent descent and rainbow colors reflected over the environment. Abano Barros in Mind was tending sheep when he
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unexpectedly saw what he described as a sun falling in the direction of Fatima. This involves looking roughly opposite the actual sun's direction from his perspective in mind. Wheelerino Lopez Dilva in Lyria while looking toward the mountain rather than at the sun suddenly
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saw a great red flash in the sky and called two workers who also saw it. This is precisely what we would expect them to see given their position in relation to the Kova due to light scattering.
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Even more remote reports are given from San Stoz about 120 km south and by a de Granaha about 160 km north including reports of rotation in a rosecolored cloud. So different observers reported phenomena in directions converging on the Fatima region rather than towards
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the astronomical sun and their extremely striking independent convergences between the testimonial reports. There's also thermodynamically impossible rapid drying that occurred. So from St.
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Beluga's article, witnesses described their clothes which had been drenched in rain suddenly became dry as evidenced by multiple witness accounts. It began to rain in the early morning or mid morning on October 13th, 1917. And then the rain
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gradually increased and became torrential. The wind became strong and the rain soaked all but those in excellent shelter, mostly those in cars and carriages. This is supported by reports of heavy rain in various newspapers as well as official
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meteorological data. Amid these rainy conditions, a remarkable thing happened to the spectators during the miracle of the sun. Let the witnesses speak for themselves. Carlos Silva in the October 18th edition of Omenserio. What amazes me is that although moments before I was
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soaking wet, I noticed that I was now dry. Inasio Antonio Marquez in a letter to Diosis and Inquiry Board in 1922. The sun turns on itself and all those who were wet appear dry as I was. Dr. Jose
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Myra Perans, a medical student at the University of Quimber at the time of the apparitions. Although my clothes were somewhat soaked through, I felt them suddenly almost completely dry. Sister Maria de Jesus Alunes Carrera who was 10 years old when her mother took her to
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Kov Deera that day said, "I was soaked to the bones. The clothing dried instantly, even the undergarments." Walking Vicente said, "My clothes were wet and then without noticing it, they were dry." St. Beluga doesn't include all the abundant testimonies to rapid
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drying. For example, Luis Lopez was soaked from his feet to his waist, but as the sun came down from the sky, he noticed to his astonishment that he was completely dry. These testimonies converge with testimonies describing a sensation of heat, and they also
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coincide exactly with certified photographs during and shortly after the miracle of the sun, which demonstrate the rapid drying. Here from Ethan Muse's article, we have dry clothes and a photograph taken after the event. And here we have a figure on the right with
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a wet dry contrast pattern. So wet up here, soaked. We've got dry down here.
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On the on the boy's trousers, regions shielded by his jacket remain soaked while exposed regions are dry. So multiple photographs independently corroborate exactly what oodles of witnesses are saying. And the photo and the photograph on the right is
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especially striking since it shows that it was raining enough to be soaked. And the wet dry contrast pad, it's perfectly exactly what we'd expect. You know, is the jacket was oluding this region here, which now he's unbuttoned. You can
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literally see it and showing the soaked garments. Notably, the boundaries of these regions track the three-dimensional clothing geometry if you actually like zoom in, not the plate or image borders. So, there's no way there's a photographic defect. What?
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Like, oh, are you going to posit a photographic defect for this one as well? Just like there happens to be a photographic defect that like exactly matches the actual like geometry of the of the image and what's actually
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depicted on the image when you actually like look at the seams and everything. Oh, I guess this photograph was just fabricated, huh? Oh, and yes, like the photographic defects and the fabric just like happen to corroborate like exactly
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what the people at the Kova are saying. As Muse notes, the rapidity of drying is naturalistically inexplicable. If the crowd had been standing in the Mojave Desert on a sunny and hot day, it would have taken hours, not minutes, for
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saturated garments to fully dry. The ambient temperature and humidity at the COVA would have been profoundly unfavorable to non-negligible drying at the time of the event. The temperature on the Fatima Plateau at midday in mid-occtober ranges from 15 to 20° C.
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Even at the upper end, that is mild. Relative humidity after prolonged rain would have been very high. In such an environment, the driving force for evaporation would have been minuscule.
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Photoggramometric analysis. In a peer-reviewed publication, Father Dr. Dur, an expert in applied sciences, performed trigonometry on multiple clearly defined cast shadows and about a dozen phototric cues and found that all converged to establish a non- solar elevation for the light source by a wide
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margin of at least 10° which distinguishes the localized emitter that is the light source from the sun. Of course, not being an expert, I do have some higher order uncertainty about the results of Deluro's analysis, but Diller is an expert especially in photogometric
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methods and it would be very striking if like a dozen photographic cues converge to the same vanishing point. dealer also externally validated the specific techniques that he used to estimate the solar elevation in D15. That's the that's like the famous image that he
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analyzed by applying them to computerenerated and real world photographs. The angular elevations that he derived were consistently within a few ten of a degree of the true elevations of the light sources in those photographs. And as you learn notes, for
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over a century, photography and architecture books as well as sketches and plans have been full of precise calculations less than one degree of shadows based on photos of buildings and other subjects taken with standard professional cameras using the
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techniques I've used. The vanishing point is determined. Notably, if Delura is right, it's game over. A miracle conclusively happened. I mean notably if Del is right like you know if he's right it's just game over right a miracle just
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conclusively happen like we just have this like spontaneous localized emitter happening on the exact date time location predicted in advance like there's no way but also but also I mean the evidence independent of delir I think is sufficient to show as much too
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so I certainly don't think the case of the miracle rests on delirious photoggramometric analysis and as I said I have I have a high I I have a degree of higher order uncertainty about it because I'm not an expert but also like
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notice that even a significant degree of higher order uncertainty still gets us pretty far if there's like a decent chance that he's right because it's basically conclusive if he Here's a diagram from Diller's optical analysis of the light source. You can, you know,
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you can check his full paper. It's linked in, I think, Ethan's post as well as, uh, in the St. Beluga post. The best naturalistic explanation is sungazing.
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That these guys were just all basically gazing at the sun. And, you know, that just caused them to, you know, you see some funny colors when you look at the sun, and that explains what happened.
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Speaker A
Nothing to see here, guys. But this explanation is untenable. Here, here seems to be his dilemma.
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You can find reports of people seeing things that are similar that have aspects that are similar to Fatima from sungazing, right? You have that that exists.
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The thing you don't have are groups of people where they're all seeing the same sequence with the same aspects all consistently when looking. Right? So you have a very high degree of convergence in a large group because the effects by
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their nature are kind of um inconsistent, idiosyncratic, you know, highly variable from person to person.
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And so that that issue of degree of convergence that exists between the testimonies. What we're talking about the witnesses that are separated by 15 kilometers in Albertell and the witnesses at the Kova are saying we saw a three-fold descent to the sun, right?
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3 vertical descent of the sun which he basically finds in no sungazing testimonies ever light multicolored light reflecting off of the environment right rotational motion right we're seeing um the zigzagging through the sky the translational motion we're seeing
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and so and all these in in abruptly the same in roughly the same sequence from person to person the firework wheels catherine wheels that stuff and so one thing that we're totally at a loss for is for these things to be group
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experiences that are highly coordinated and convergent between each other. The second thing it seems like we're at a loss for is not the occurrence of individual features, but the constellation of features to happen instantaneously when looking at the sun
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and then for all of those features to coalesce within one individual experience. That also seems like it doesn't happen.
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Speaker A
I mean, I don't see examples of the vertical motion really happening ever. Another thing is the light reflecting off the environment. Yeah, like the white hat or whatever.
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Speaker A
Well, yeah. It's just people are seeing. So, for instance, so you know, we have the two crucial witnesses who said, "I didn't look at the sun because I didn't want there to be an optical illusion.
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So, I faced the opposite direction of the sun and I saw like the red and yellow reflecting off of the people in the crowd, their faces, you know, and so we have a guy that's specifically saying, I don't want there to be
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sungazing effects." So, I'm turning around and looking at the people and then the light is reflecting off the people and changing color. I mean, another thing we don't see obviously are like distant witnesses reporting the same phenomenology at the same time.
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Yeah. Or rapid drawing or Okay. Well, yeah. I mean, all that stuff is just starts to get conclusive. I mean, I'm not Yeah. I'm not even going to go for like physical evidence, the photoggramometric. Yeah.
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Yeah. Right now, I just want to focus on phenomenology of reports. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And and there are things that seem really really hard for me to explain. So if the crowd is right that the sun was standing out in the
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open sky, clear sky that wasn't obstructed by clouds for any period of time and then they were staring at it without discomfort.
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Speaker A
How do you explain that? how nobody's having discomfort staring at the sun in midday sun in the afternoon.
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How do you explain it? And then Scott says, "Okay, well, let's think that it was attenuated by clouds and people mistook it for being in the clear sky even though they're saying blue, right, where I shouldn't have seen it." You
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know, all these people are saying like this is anomalous, like this is something that is lending us the impression that this is a miracle, etc.
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But okay, fine. Let's concede. It's covered by clouds. then you'd never get sungazing. If the thing is the same brightness as the moon, do you get sungazing effects, optical effects in your eyes from staring at the moon? No. So, if it's as
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Speaker A
bright as the moon, it doesn't cause sungazing effects. So, you can't have both at the same time.
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Speaker A
Yes, you can have it's a pale disc as bright as the moon obscured by clouds. though I'm not even sure you can get that at the like I'm not fighting them about that just because it's such a distraction but the I literally don't
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Speaker A
think you can get that when the sun is at its unit. Um but regardless okay sure sometimes people do see through fog a sun is a pale disc, right?
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Speaker A
Yeah. But then you you just don't have the sungazing effect. So like Yeah. They don't do that at the same time that they're sungazing.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is I mean I remember you making his point where like there there is this conflict between his explanation of like the various colors that people reported and whatnot on the one hand and his sort of explanation of
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how easy it was to look at the sun. Uh and and that's just all in addition to him already just having to sort of wave away the various different testimonies that like it was a clear sky and I I s
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the clouds like moved away. Some of them say like it was opening as a curtain and I could see the sun and it was there were no clouds. I mean, I just want to I just want to read it because I wasn't
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actually biased in my collection. You know, it couldn't be confused with the sun seen through fog because it wasn't opaque, diffuse, or veiled. That's the most explicit statement you're going to get.
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Someone said that. I said someone said that. I don't even I don't even remember that. That's why Yeah, that's Jose Garrett's testimony.
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It couldn't be confused with the sun seen through fog, which by the way didn't exist at that time because it was an opaque diffuse or veil. He also reported it was intermittent. The sun sometimes stood out in patches of clear
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sky. The clouds did not obscure the light which did not hurt of the sun but sometimes these flakes which were white seemed to take on sliding before the sun a diaphous pink or blue hue. Mario Gadino I saw in a clear area of sky
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parenthesis where one should not be able to stare at the sun and parenthesis the very sun. I could then see the sun more easily than I can see the moon on a full full moon night. Almeida writes one can
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see the immense crowd turning towards the sun which appears free from all clouds and added seen it. The sun resembles a dull silver point and it is possible to look at it without the least effort. Vicente reported it was raining.
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Suddenly the clouds opened and the sun seemed as though through a window. Jose Curado the sun now cloudless did not project its rays onto the earth.
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Suddenly it lost all light or flames and a pale silver plate appeared. It could remain fixed indefinitely without disturbing the eyes.
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Now cloudless. The sky was covered with clouds but suddenly the clouds tore away and the sun appeared as if trembling to Lopez.
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The hour approaches and behold as if by magic the rain stops. The sun breaks through the dense black crowds and reveals itself with luminous rays and soon loses its brightness and colors able to be seen by the naked eye without
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hurting the eyes. Dominic Reyes. Yes, I could look at the sun without pain in the eyes. There were colors all around the sun and it was like the sun. But the clouds didn't go with the sun. They were
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blue in different colors. Ra doo. Suddenly a luminous disc the size of orange host which everyone could gaze upon as one gazes upon the moon appeared as if it had detached itself from the sun or rather placed itself before it. A
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beautiful cloud now fiery color now purple now pink now golden appeared and disappeared successively. Jose Silver reported, "We could look at the sun without difficulty. The sky became clear." Louise Vascanos reported, "At first, I only saw clouds drifting by,
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leaving the sun uncovered. Suddenly, I see the intensely pink rim surrounding the sun, which resembled a disc of dull silver while giving me the impression it was moving from its original position." Jose Frazzo reported, "The sky was covered with clouds, but suddenly the
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clouds open. A furia at 1:00 the clouds gathered into a very thick and dark form, giving the appearance of an eclipse. Then the dark cloud broke, and through the break we saw the sun. At one o'clock, Maria Queros at 1:00 the sky a
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silver globe appeared. Appeared to be crossed here and there by clouds. Maria Teresa, we did not see the sun. Then suddenly the clouds drew away. The sun appeared. We could look at it as if it were the moon. So anyways, we see a very
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consistent theme of witness testimony is abrupt break in the clouds reveals the sun. Were there clouds there weren't there? Well, anybody who's explicit about it says it couldn't be mistaken for the sun seen through clouds.
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Cloudless clear patch of sky shouldn't be able to see it. Yeah, dude. I think there was even one that you well maybe you included this one but uh I noticed it and it described the clouds moving away as like a curtain
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or something like that. So that's another one I I don't even know if you mentioned that one because I didn't hear the word curtain. There's a paradox here which is how is it that you're going to get it to where you can have a whole
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crowd of people staring for 10 minutes at this light source where you're going to attenuate the light enough that that's not going to cause discomfort in anybody. But at the same time, you're going to appeal as the physiological
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mechanism to explain the crowd phenomenology. You're going to appeal to optical effects that would only result if they had been staring at this like high contrast very bright source.
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So there are many problems with the sungazing explanation. Here's a summary. The light source seen by the witnesses at Fatima was comfortable to stare at, which means it did not cause the retinal over stimulation necessary to produce sungazing effects. Not only was the
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light source comfortable to stare at, but 15 out of 15 witnesses who mentioned clouds noted that the object was seen against the backdrop of a clear sky, blueed sky, free from all clouds, etc.
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The midday sun is not comfortable to stare at in the absence of cloud coverage. The colors cast by the light source on the surrounding landscape were noted by witnesses who had their backs turned to the quote unquote sun in order
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to avoid optical illusions. The witnesses experienced convergent visual phenomenology whereas sungazing effects would have been idiosyncratic. The witnesses all saw the miracle at the same time whereas the onset of sungazing effects would have been staggered.
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witness multiple witnesses at least one I think either might have actually gone through two or three if if I recall correctly but um at least one witness and maybe multiple witnesses distinguished the light source from the sun. Photoggric evidence and testimony
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from distant witnesses showed that the light source seen by the Fatima witnesses was not the actual sun but a localized emitter. Many of the distant witnesses saw precisely what we would expect them to see given their distance and orientation relative to the Kova.
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Especially proative here are crossgroup undesigned coincidences between testimony reports. For instance, witnesses in Alberell describe a three-fold descent of the quote unquote sun when looking towards the Kova. And that in turn exactly corroborates testimonies to three-fold descent from
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the people at the Kova. There are lots of testimonies to extremely rapid drawing of clothes which sungazing couldn't explain. Multiple photographs exactly align with these as do testimonies to a sense of heat radiating from the emitter. Sungazing, of course,
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also doesn't explain the scientifically unprecedented apparition phenomena and the external physical cooperations that happen to coincide with them. Sungazing doesn't explain the healings. You know, it's it's a mess. Speaking of healings, and I think I take these to just be like
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further corroborative evidence. Like they're just like further coincidences that the the naturalistic explanations just have to add one on top of another whereas the miracle hypothesis has a unifying explanation of all the data.
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You guys are just going to add on top of that these coincidences. So um so from St. Beluga's article, sister Maria Miguel Marot originally from Finister Spain had suffered from painful severe arthritis in her left knee for about 10
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years. Her knee was intensely swollen and the left leg had atrophied to the extent that it was 7 cm shorter than the right leg. Her condition remained unchanged despite continuous limb extension, light therapy, and calcium salts. On January 12th, 1940, the
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community prayed for her during a canalite procession in the comet with the image of Our Lady of Fatima. The next day after the procession, Maria experienced a sudden and sharp tug on her leg and found herself radically cured. She was able to resume all her
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duties as a lay sister, including kneeling and walking normally, activities she hadn't been able to do for a decade. Dr. Jose Rodriguez Gomez, who had been treating Maria, formerly attested to her initial condition treatments and the drastic change,
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observed on January 13th. On that date, I observed normal gate without any trace of limping, lower limbs of equal length, muscle mass is apparently normal. In the thigh, there is a decrease of 1 centimeter in the circumference, and in
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the lower leg, the difference is half a centimeter, equal knee circumferences, palpation of the region does not awaken the slightest pain, perfect mobility of the kneecap as well as movements as well as all movements of the joint.
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Conclusion: The patient is clinically cured. We have cures of blindness. Opthalmologist Dr. Alfredo Donka reported in a letter to Dr. Luis Pacheo that Maria had optic nerve atrophy, which completely abolished vision. Dr.
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GMA Pinto also diagnosed Maria with optic nerve atrophy. Against all medical odds, Maria's vision was fully restored in both eyes after using water from Fatima for a few days. We have a 10-year long paralysis being healed and attested
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by Dr. Fernando Vanzellar Pelova who had been treating Santos during the 10 years of his paralysis. We someone who was deaf for 49 years after applying a few drops of Fatima water in his ears during a novena to our lady of Fatima. He
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suddenly ceased to be deaf continuing to hear perfectly thereafter. Testified to by Dr. Walk Alberto Dec Carlo Olivivera and so on. There are others that I'm not going to go through, but you get the point. So like we got the healing of the
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paralytic, the blind, the deaf, etc. You know, all the sorts of miracles that Christ performed and which served to vindicate or authenticate him. Whereas those are maybe I don't know years or decades after the fact. Here we got
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basically like contemporaneous reports from doctors and testimonies from doctors themselves who are like, "Yeah, this is my my patient for 10 years or things like that." Okay. So in summary, we have voluminous, detailed, convergent, contemporaneous testimony enjoying every appearance of credibility
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that our lady supernaturally appeared to three children on six different occasions following an advanced schedule coinciding with objective, multiply attested physical anomalies, who in turn predicted months in advance the exact date, time, and location of a spectacular event that tens of thousands
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of people witnessed both at the COVA and within dozens of kilometers of the COA, backed by highly convergent phenomenology, literal photographs independently corroborating abundant testimonies to thermodynamically and possibly rapid drying in a sense of Multiple clearly defined cast shadows
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and about a dozen photogometric cues all converged to support a non-solar elevation for the light source. Painless staring at the light source against a clear blue cloudless sky at midday with people avoiding optical effects by looking away from said source with
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people distinguishing the source from the sun with oodles of subsequent apparently miraculous medically tested healings and on and on and on. The sheer force of this positive evidence is overwhelming. The two biggest objections to Fatima are the failed prophecy
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objection Ethan Muse in this post here. I've linked it in the resource document. pretty I think you know pretty swiftly refuts the objection. Noah McKay and I also refute it in our indefense of the miracle of the sun. But long story short
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on the day of the miracle, Lucia explicitly formulated the prophecy conditionally. After the July 13th and September 13th operations, Lucia understood the promise of the end of the war to be conditional on praying the rosary. Within a week of the miracle,
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Justinta explicitly formulated the prophecy conditionally. In 1927, Mendes, who carried Lucia in his arms on October 13th, very plausibly characterized Lucia's prophecy conditionally, and in 1948, Mendes explicitly characterized Lucia's prophecy conditionally. On the day of the miracle, Dilva corroborated
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Justinda's conditional formulation of the prophecy. Within a week of the miracle, Constansio reiterated the second part of Justinta's rendition of the prophecy and corroborated the first part. Four days after the miracle, Raposo corroborated both parts of Justinta's prophecy. A week after the
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miracle, Lucia stated the prophecy unconditionally, but first explicitly admitted to forgetting its immediate context. Two, deferred to her early articulation of the prophecy, which was conditional. She later, three, expressed uncertainty about whether the prophecy was conditional. And four, admitted to
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having been distracted when the prophecy was spoken. Moreover, actually, if you look at the context, which is what no and I go through and we show in the post, she was clearly not actually pronouncing on whether the prophecy was
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conditional. She was pronouncing on whether or not Mary said today, whether or not she said the word today or the word soon. But that's totally compatible with her thinking that, you know, the war the war ends today was within the
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consequence of a conditional. We go through this extensively in the veritatus blender post. We go on to demonstrate that apparently contrary reports are easily accommodated. I also personally sat down with a Portuguese student in my grad program. you know, he
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lived in Portugal basically, I think, his whole life. Went to the University of Coinbra, I think, has a has this thick accent. I show him I show him the the transcript um from the day of from Lucia, October 13th. And he's like, he
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reads it, he's like, "Oh, yeah, clearly conditional." I consulted a bunch of others, and you know, the significant majority of them said that, "Yeah, conditional." And many of them, in fact, said very clearly conditional. And this person in my department, he was like,
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"Yeah, like this is it's roughly like how my grandma might speak, you know, but um it's clearly conditional." But anyway, check out this check out our post on Veritata Splendor. So, that's the first biggest objection. and I don't
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think it succeeds. The second biggest objection is what we can call the horizontal strategy. So the strategy here is just to identify a bunch of other puditive sun miracles that at least superficially rhyme with Fatima in some ways and then to infer that because
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these other sun miracles quote unquote are not plausibly miraculous. Fatima is not plausibly miraculous either. Um say because you know whatever explains the former should carry over to the latter.
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But first other alleged sun miracles tend to differ from the miracle of the sun in highly evidentially relevant ways. For example, they were not seen by distant witnesses and or the phenomenological reports are neither highly convergent nor saturated with
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striking undesigned coincidences and or they weren't seen by hostile witnesses who were present and or they didn't dry wet clothes at thermodynamically impossible rates and or they weren't predicted months in advance and or the sears associated with don't live lives
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of heroic virtue or are obvious fraudsters who are caught on camera faking insensitivity to external stimuli and or they weren't preceded by a long series of scientifically unprecedented group apparition phenomena correlated with externally observable physical stimuli and or they don't have
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subsequent medically attested plausible miracles. and or they are pedled and superintended by an abbot who is corrupt, a fraudster, a serial adulterer, an expert propagandist and Hitler acolyte who is responsible for fabricating miracle stories and or they happened when the
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sun was much lower on the horizon and or they happened after an intense bout of meditation that primed witnesses to see exactly what they report seeing and so on. Add nauseium. Second, the horizontal strategists tend to assume without
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argument that the other alleged sun miracles were natural. But the Fatima proponent need not concede this. Indeed, the horizontal Indeed, the horizontal strategists face a dilemma here. And I think this is a pretty big pretty big problem for them thanks to ether news.
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Either the strategist can explain those other events naturalistically or they can't. If they can't then obviously those events are not going to help the naturalist explain Fatima, right? But if they can then they should be able to show how the relevant natural mechanisms
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explain Fatima. Yet objections have failed in this task thereby evincing a relevant difference between the cases.
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Namely, no natural mechanisms suffice to explain the events that superficially resemble Fatima but do not suffice to explain Fatima. So I think the two best objections to Fatima fail. Okay. And what about the vindicatory implications of this miracle? Well, in terms of
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Catholic vindicatory implications of Fatima alone, it is staggering. Mary entrusted to the children three quote unquote secrets or really the three parts of one secret. One of them was a vision of hell. So, this is manifestally vindicating the doctrine of hell.
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Another is the immaculate conception. Mary requested that the holy father consecrate Mary request Mary explicitly requested that the holy father consecrate Russia to her immaculate heart. Immaculate heart that's referring to her immaculate conception which only Catholics dogmatize. One of the central
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features of her requests at Fatima was pray the rosary, pray the rosary, pray the rosary. She identified herself as our lady of the rosary. And of course, the rosary meditates on mysteries like the assumption and the coronation of
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Mary. So we got vindication of those doctrines as well. Marian intercession of course obviously in the apparitions Mary is also agreeing to convert named individuals to Catholicism. So showing that Catholicism is the appropriate object of conversion. And that wouldn't
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be the case if orthodoxy is true because orthodoxy at least in its or quotequote orthodox versions as I understand them teach that there's no salvation outside the church. So Catholicism is not elicit object of conversion. And you guys also
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don't dogmatize the immaculate conception. And if all that wasn't enough, the miracle also vindicates one of the central disagreements between reformation protestants and Catholics, namely vicarious participatory satisfaction for sin. So the children did penences for sinners and the
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apparition was reported as approving those, moderating them, tempering them, but yes indeed authenticating them, legitimizing them, vindicating that theology of, you know, vicarious participatory satisfaction for sin.
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Again, one of these central disagreements between Protestants and Catholics. And Mary is just coming in and saying, "Well, sorry guys, but the Catholics are right. Don't worry, I'll go through the demonic explanation later." It also vindic also vindicates
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the papacy, right? because she asks for the holy father to consecrate Russia to her immaculate heart. Holy father that refer that title refers to the holiness of his office. This is an ongoing episcopal office. And he's the father.
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He's the spiritual father, right? Spiritual father to the universal church. And she's vindicating his spiritual authority to perform a formal religious act on behalf of a principally orthodox nation in a foreign land over like a thousand miles away, which is
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seems to be evidence for universal jurisdiction. So Mary herself seems to be basically like like screaming Catholis allism is true through this miracle. Okay, onwards we march to Lord and let's go do St. Beluga's fantastic article on lords. So here St. Beluga
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just you know go gives an in-depth overview the 70th 71st and 72nd recognized miracles in Lords France which with detailed medical commentary got like photographs of these people before and after their healings. Why do pilgrims go to Lords? Well, in 1858 in a
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grotto in the French countryside in Lurs, the blessed virgin Mary reportedly appeared 18 times to Bernardet Subaru, an uneducated 14-year-old girl promoting prayer, especially the rosary, peace, and spiritual conversion. The event shares many parallels with the 20th century Marian apparitions at Fatima,
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Portugal. At first, Bernardet did not know the identity of the woman and referred to her only as the lady. The woman eventually identified herself in Bernett's local dialect as the immaculate conception, a title for Mary associated with a Catholic dogma
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declared in 1854, just four years earlier. Like the Fatima children, Bernardet consistently recounted her experiences despite immense pressure and severe intimidation from religious and civil authorities who initially suspected she was either lying or delusional. Bernardet later lived a
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quiet life as a nun and was canonized as a saint by the Catholic Church in 1933.
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Just a few other things uh that I wanted to add to these uh apparitions. Crowds would actually gather around Bernardet during the apparitions during which she would enter, you know, like these during which she would, you know, enter these
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like translike states and sometimes communicate with the lady. Um, Bernardet's own written account of the first apparition says, "I began to say the rosary while the lady passed the beads of her rosary through her fingers without moving her lips." So, the
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apparition was praying the rosary along with Bernardet. Bernardet described the lady as beautiful and saw her quote dressed in white. She wore a white dress and equally white veils, a blue belt, and a yellow rose on each foot. During
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the apparition of April 7th, 1858, the physician, Dr. Pierre Roma Do was present and reported observing the flame of Bernardet's lighted candle repeatedly coming into contact with her hand without burning it while she was in one of these translike states. and upon
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examining her hand afterwards he found no burns. Later accounts state that this continued for roughly 15 minutes. On February 25th, 1858, during one of the apparitions, Bernardet reported that the lady instructed her to drink from where she initially found only a little muddy
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water. This muddy water, however, soon transformed into spring, but eventually yielded 25,000 gallons per day. Within days, people began to experience miraculous cures by touching this water.
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The first officially recognized Lord's miracle involved Luis Berett, a 54-year-old stone cutter from Lords who had been blind in his right eye for about two decades after a mine explosion. He experienced an abrupt and complete recovery of sight on March 1st,
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1858 after washing the injured eye with water from the newly discovered spring at Lurs. He immediately reported being able to read and recognize faces again.
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Dr. Pierre Roma Do the municipal physician examined him and judge the cure medically inexplicable. As part of the church's investigation into the healings of Buret, Dr. Henry Vargas, faculty of medicine University Mier, was appointed to independently scrutinize the cure. Dr. Vargas began by examining
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the grotto water itself and found no special properties that could explain the reported healings. Later geochemical studies of the water have confirmed the absence of any abnormal substances or unusual concentrations of minerals. I should also say, you know, as we're
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about to see, you know, God has gone out of his way to repeatedly and manifestly vindicate our Lady of Lords with the most unparalleled string of miraculous medically documented healings in the world. It would be bizarre and seemingly
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deceptive for God to immediately uniquely privilege through manifest miraculous signs the sight of a massive and evil demonic deception and ditto if Bernardet is just a fraud or a schizophrenic. And that's why it is evidentially relevant that we go through
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some of the healing miracles. To this day, thousands claim to receive miraculous healings at Lords. In 1883, the sanctuary of Our Lady of Lords created the Lord's medical bureau to document and clinically assess the rapidly growing number of reported
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cures. Its physicians collect and verify prior diagnoses, review complete medical records, and examine the people who claim that they were healed to compare findings before and after the event.
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Since 1954, cases that appear exceptional are then submitted to the International Medical Committee of of Lords. An expert panel of about 30 respective physicians, typically professors, department heads, and specialists in fields such as surgery, psychiatry, neurology, and oncology to
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judge whether the healing is medically inexplicable. Members are selected based on medical expertise, and they serve without religious bias, focusing solely on the scientific assessment of cures.
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They use the Lamberti criteria to determine whether a cure is remarkable. It must involve a grave, well-documented disease with a severe prognosis, cure that is sudden, complete, lasting with no adequate medical or natural cause.
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Dr. Dr. Alexander de Francis, the current president of the Lord's Medical Bureau, says that what separates the more than 7,000 recorded claims of cures from the 72 that the church officials have recognized as miracles is a tremendous amount of medical
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documentation and a patient's willingness to put their life under a microscope, oftentimes for decades on end. A lot of people are just really a lot of people are just like, "Listen, dude, I'm happy that I was healed. I
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don't really need I don't want to continue flying back to you guys for all these medical, you know, reports and just you submit over basically my entire life of medical documentation." Like, no, I'm happy God healed me and I'm
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going on with my day. Thank you very much. So, I'll just go through two of the healing miracles on this page. Um, let's go through Bernardet Morio. Um, 1939 to the present. She's recognized that the 70th Lord's miracle in 2018.
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After four decades of progressive and debilitating back pain, Sister Bernardet Moro had accepted that this would be her condition until the end of her life. She was just as surprised as everyone else when she was cured at the age of 68
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after pilgrimage. When she was in her late 20s, she found her calling as a nurse working in a busy clinic and alongside her San Francisco sisters. At first, she ignored the twinges of low back pain that started in 1966. But soon
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they were impossible to ignore. As her back pain grew worse, she had a total of four spinal operations over the following years that did nothing to alleviate her symptoms. By 1975, she developed irreversible inflammation of the lumbar and sacral nerve roots, also
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called coda aquinina syndrome, and her chronic back pain meant that she couldn't work as a nurse anymore. In 1987, Morio's neurologist put her on disability after determining that she had more or less total impairment of the lumbar and sacral base. To control the
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sharp shooting pains in her lower back and legs, she had a neuros stimulator implanted in her spinal cord and took morphine twice a day. She had to wear a permanent cervical lumbar core set to support her spine. By 1999, she needed
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to catharize herself six times a day to urinate. Her left foot became paralyzed and twisted backward in 2005, and she had to wear a splint to keep the foot in the correct position. Walking, walking became more and more painful as her
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range of motion diminished. It was in this condition that she saw Dr. Kristoff Fumery, her primary care doctor in Brussels, France in early 2008. During one of her monthly visits for a morphine prescription, he suggested that she go
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on the summer pilgrimage to Lords in the 150th anniversary of the apparitions. Despite several previous visits to Lords, she never considered going as one of the sick until Dr. Fumeray encouraged her to go. The 12 hours the train took
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to get to Lords were excruciating. But once she arrived, Morio found the experience spiritually invigorating.
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Going into the bath on July 4th, 2008, felt like being baptized again, and she was struck by the peace and spirituality of the grotto. Afterward, when the bishop blessed her during benediction, she felt burnished by the infinite love
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of God and filled with new inner peace. Despite the joy in her heart, her body was racked with pain during the long train ride home. She stayed in bed, recovering for the next three days.
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Finally, emerging from her room to attend adoration at the chapel in in her convent during prayer, she experienced a new sensation. I felt a great relaxing in my body, like a warmth from my heart suffusing everything. That warmth filled
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me. When Morio returned to her room, she heard an inner voice tell her to take off her braces. She promptly took off her corset and leg splint. Even without those supports, she no longer had any pain, and her left foot pointed forward
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normally, no longer deformed. She turned off the neuro stimulator in her spinal cord since she no longer needed it. See, she was able to urinate without a catheter for the first time in years.
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She had stopped taking morphine from that moment on. Instantaneously stopped morphine. Morio left her room and met another nun in the convent who was flabbergasted by her transformation.
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They wept and prayed together in a joy. When she went to Dr. Dr. Fum's clinic several days after her healing. He told her that there was no trace of her condition left. He was also surprised that she was able to stop morphine
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immediately without any side effects. People like her on chronic high doses of morphine need to have their medication tapered slowly to avoid withdrawal symptoms. Dr. Fumeray recognizing that Moro had been cured with no feasible medical explanation started started
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keeping a detailed record of the investigation he expected from Lord's medical bureau. He also recommended that she be evaluated by doctors at NOS University Pain Center where she had been seen since 2000. After 42 years of progressive back pain, she was suddenly
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painfree. Without any medical intervention, she experienced a sudden, complete, and lasting cure of a condition only expected to get worse over time. Once she told her local bishop what had happened, she was not surprised that the Lord's medical bureau
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opened a file for her. In total, over 300 physicians examined her case over the course of 8 years. Okay. John Trainer, he was recognized as a 71st Lord's Miracle in 2024. John Trainer was a soldier in the British Royal Navy who
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was wounded several times during World War I. In October 1914, he was hit in the head by shrapnel that left him in a coma, regaining consciousness only after an operation 5 weeks later. Since he appeared to fully recover from his head
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injury, he rejoined his battalion in January 1915. Trainer was then shot by three bullets during a bayonet charge on May 8th, 1915. Two bullets went through his chest while the third one lodged in his collarbone after severing his right
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brachial plexus, an important network of nerves responsible for controlling the muscles of his right arm. His right arm was completely paralyzed and remained that way despite three different operations to suture the nerves back together. Finally, in November 15th, the
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medical board advised him to amputate his right arm since it was a useless dead weight and not expected to improve.
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Trainer refused to have the surgery and he was discharged from the Navy as permanently unfit. Yet another arm surgery a year later in November 1916 was also unsuccessful. In the meantime, trainer experienced his first seizure while recovering from his bullet
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injuries in 1915. These seizures grew progressively worse over the next few years. He had an operation in 1920 to remove shrapnel fragments from his head and create an open flap in his skull in the hopes of decreasing his seizures,
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but there was no improvement. Trainer was discharged from the hospital in 1920 as an invalid. His paralyzed right arm had become shriveled from disuse and his right hand was frozen into a claw. He developed partial parapillegia paralysis of the legs and was unable to stand or
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walk, requiring someone to transfer him between his bed and wheelchair. He could not control his bladder bowel movements.
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He suffered from chronic sores and ulcers because of his immobility. He experienced several seizures a day and continuous headaches. The Minister of Pensions awarded him a permanent allowance to maintain a caregiver on top of the 100% invalidity pension he had
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already been receiving. After suffering eight years of disability, trainer planned to enter hospice for the incurable on July 24th, 1923. Instead, heard about the first Liverpool pilgrimage to Lords and resolved to go, even if it meant his wife would need to
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pawn her jewelry to afford the trip on their limited income. Three doctors examined him once he arrived in Lords and issued the following certificate.
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This is to certify that on 24th of July 1923, we examined at Lords, Mr. John Trainer of Liverpool. We found to be suffering from epilepsy. We were able to observe several attacks during the stripped lords. Radial, median and ulner
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paralysis of the right arm. The hand is clawed, the wrist drooping and with muscular atrophy. Corresponding atrophy of the muscles of the scapulmeral and pectoral region. Surgical opening about 2.5 cmters to the right of the skull in the parietal region. The pulsations of
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the brain are palpable. A metal plate protects the opening. Absence of voluntary movement of lower limbs and loss of sensitivity incontinents of urine and feces. The following day, Trainer was immersed in the Baz Lords nine times. He then attended the
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Eucharistic procession and felt a sense of well-being suffuse his entire body as the blessed sacrament passed by. It seemed to him that his whole body was coming back to life and he could now move all three of the previously
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paralyzed limbs of his body. He was suddenly able to move his right arm which burst through its bandages as he blessed himself for the first time in many years. All his sores, including the chronic ulcer on his right arm, had
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disappeared. The aforementioned doctors examined him later that day and discovered that he could now walk a few steps, although with pain and difficulty. The next morning, trainer startled everyone in the ward by jumping out of bed and racing several hundred
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yards to the grotto. so he could kneel and pray there in gratitude. Still barefoot and dressed in his pajamas. He wanted to make some sort of sacrifice in return and lacking any money, he resolved to get up cigarettes to show
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his thankfulness to the Lady of Lords. Beast beast. When the three doctors examined him again the next day on July 27th, they recorded the following. he can walk perfectly. That he has recovered the use and function of his
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right arm. That he has recovered feeling in his lower limbs. That the cranial orvis has considerably decreased in width. No pulsation is perceptible. The patient has removed his protective plate. No epileptic seizures. No reasonable medical explanation can be
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offered for the sudden and lasting improvement in tra in trainer symptoms or the ability of his skull to grow noticeably in just 3 days. After his recovery, he became an active coal merchant, developing powerful muscles from loading heavy bags of coal onto his
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luri. Three years after his cure, trainer, accompanied by three doctors who had witnessed the recovery 1923, went to Lur's medical bureau for a thorough medical assessment. The following report was published by Dr.
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August Valet, its president, October to October 2nd, 1926. Were not for his right hand, which is still clawed, but no longer atrophied and which can be used well enough since he's a stretcher bearer and easily loads bags of coal
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onto his cart at home. You would not think that this man was badly wounded in the war and discharged for incurability.
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His right arm is completely free of atropy. There's barely 1.5 cm less circumference in the middle of the form than on the left. The pectoral and shoulder muscles have fully recovered.
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All wrist movements are possible. The surgical opening in the skull has completely disappeared. All you can feel under your finger is a slight depression in the in the bone. Trainer had not had another epileptic seizure since 25th of
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July 1923. On that day, they stopped for good. So instantly, the pathological museum that was this man alone, since apart from his left arm, all the other parts of his body were affected. This pathological museum, I would say, was
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closed. But how extraordinary, how prodigious was the simultaneous work of repairing Mr. Trainer's damaged organs.
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Speaker A
In cases where nerve suturing is successful, nerves usually take months to regenerate. Since trainer's right arm remained completely paralyzed 7 years after the last attempt to reconnect his nerves, the nerves likely degenerated completely, leading to muscle wasting.
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Therefore, the sudden ability to move his arm at Lords could not have been the result of his surgeries. The report emphasizes that the healing of his arm must include three distinct elements.
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Regeneration or better still creation of nerve matter, elongation of the injured nerves and their joining together constituting by the simultaneity and immediiacy of their appearance and admirable repair which we never see in the usual practice of healing the
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wounded. Furthermore, all of his other neurological problems, the frequent seizures, paralysis of the lower legs, bowel and bladder incontinence dis disappeared as well. For three years, his his recovery has been definitive. No seizures ever turned. And he likes to
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say he has never consulted a doctor taken any drugs. As for us, obliged to confine ourselves to our role as doctors, we recognize and proclaim along with our confers that the process of this prodigious cure is absolutely outside and above the forces of nature.
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The above report was not referred to any dasis and bishop for review when it was first published. Trainer's arm paralysis technically did not meet all the Lambertini criteria because he was left with some clawing in his hand and a
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slight difference in arm circumference years later. But as Dr. Morardi commented, it is clearly medically inexplicable that a man with a completely paralyzed arm with gross muscle wasting, impaired sensation, and held on by cat gut such that several
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Speaker A
doctors advised amputation could subsequently work as a coal merchant lifting bags and coal weighing 200 lb. I mean like again like objecting on that basis is like you know it's like imagine imagine that the Colonda miracle actually happened as described. So like
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like suppose it happened as described right by the witnesses. So like he actually had a cut stump and his leg spontaneously instantaneously came back.
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Speaker A
But imagine that for the rest of his life he had a little bit of a limp for instance, right? Or that it was like, you know, ever so slightly deformed.
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Speaker A
Well, clearly that's still not naturalistically explicable, right? And there's non-silly reasons why God might not heal someone absolutely 100% back to perfect health. Maybe it serves as a constant reminder to the person that yeah, like listen, I am still totally
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dependent on God. Maybe it's meant to serve a kind of souvenir function to kind of show that like no this this guy actually did he actually was sick and you can sort you can see that precisely because at least some at least some
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Speaker A
small remnant even though he's functionally fine to do all the thing everything in the ordinary life that he was supposed to do given his state in life it serves as a kind of remnant or a souvenir or maybe like the hiddenist
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Speaker A
model partially explains this right so like this is just like one of those peripheral anomalies that skeptics will just latch on to and be like ha I'm going to cling to that to try to justify my skepticism even though other aspects
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Speaker A
of this are not plausibly naturalistically explicable so so yeah I mean again maybe some of these stories like slightly ad hoc are slightly implausible, but not on the level of implausibility that the nationalists would have to posit in order to explain
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Speaker A
away what like the ulcers going away, the nerves reuturing, all this stuff like paralysis instantaneously going away, the bone going strikingly fast within the course of like 3 days, epileptic seizures instantaneously seizing and permanently seizing thereafter and on and on and on and on.
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Speaker A
Here are three more Lord's cases from Jackson's chapter on Lords and these are even more insane by many miles than the ones that we just covered. So, Wim Dehant, this is the ninth officially recognized miracle of Lords. Um, Wim
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Speaker A
Dehant was a Belgian woman whose health declined in her late teens starting in 1866. For the next 12 years, she suffered from a growing and untreatable ulcer that had eaten away at the side of her leg. Prior to her journey to Lurs in
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Speaker A
1878, a local physician named Dr. Freyise evaluated her and produced a signed medical certificate on September 6th, 1878 describing the wound. His certificate documented the extensive ulcer while accompanying testimony medical descriptions report exposed tissue, destruction of muscle and
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tendon, heavy separation, and a foul odor. The ulcer measured approximately 12.5 in long, spanning from below the knee to the ankle with a width of approximately 6 in. The ulcer cut into her flesh so deeply, as said, so as to
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eat away at her muscles and tendons. Wim then left her lords 4 days later on September 10th, 1878, accompanied by friends. They arrived at the grotto on September 12th. At 9:00 a.m. the next day, Wim submerged her leg in one of the
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Lord's pools, and one of the Lord's staffers named Leon Dorval noticed the bandages retracting from Wim's leg as the patient emerged from the pool. The bandages were then removed to reveal the massive ulcer persistent for over a decade prior was now covered in new
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Speaker A
skin. Much of the muscle mass had likewise been restored and gave definition to the calves of the leg. The woman's leg had straightened significantly and allowed her to walk uninhibited. That's a quote from Jackson's book. Walking broke the news
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to her companions later that evening, all of whom examined the leg and were overjoyed. On September 15th, 3 days later, the director of the Lord's pilgrimage sent a telegram to the countest deleging Lee declaring the miracle to her neighbors in Belgium.
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Speaker A
When walking returned home, her family and neighbors were ecstatic to see her cured. Dr. Freyise personally examined the leg less than a week after the pilgrimage and certified in a signed report on September 19th that she was healed. We have signed medical
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Speaker A
documentation 7 days before and 6 days after to a massive ulcer cutting into flesh being completely healed. This is naturalistically impossible. A firstirhand account of the healing by Father Divos was then published 3 months later in December 1878 Annals of Lords.
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Speaker A
Divas was assigned to oversee Wim as a pilgrim upon her arrival to Lords and verified both the initial state of the leg and its subsequent healing. The Lord's medical bureau was not established until 5 years after Waim's healing. So formal investigations into
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Speaker A
Wimh's case by the bureau did not commence until 1898, two decades after the healing. Still, the investigators interviewed a dozen witnesses who uniformly attested to seeing Wim's wound in the days leading up to her cure along with her healed state afterwards where
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Speaker A
her leg was covered with new skin and a thin red scar where the ulcer previously was. The witness list. The witness list includes local politicians, Wala's neighbors and primary physician, fellow pilgrims and stabbers at Lords, the owners of the hotel where Waim spent the
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Speaker A
night during the pilgrimage. The contemporaneous medical documentation was retrieved and together with the unanimous testimony of a dozen witnesses and the firstand account of Father Divos published only 3 months after. The bureau concluded that the enormous separating wound existed immediately
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Speaker A
before the cure and it subsequently disappeared and was replaced by healthy skin. The formal ecclesiastical declaration of the miracle came in April 1908 from the bishop of Namore. Again, this is like a visibly obvious gigantic ulcer that's very hard to be honestly
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Speaker A
mistaken about. And we have very early testimony from multiple witnesses, including her doctor, to the healing.
324:22
Speaker A
And then unanimous testimony from a dozen witnesses two decades later. Maria Learand. This is a photograph of Marie Learon years after her healing. On the left here is an artistic depiction of a 19th century woman with lupus vulgaras
324:32
Speaker A
with ulcers all over the person's face, eating the person's face. Okay, so Maria Larawn, this is again, this is an artistic depiction on the left. I'm not saying that this is a photograph of her, but this is this is her after her
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Speaker A
healing of Maria Learon. So, let's talk about Marie Leon. Marie Leon Leon. Marie Leon became ill in her late teenage years. She suffered from advanced stage pulmonary tuberculosis that left her mostly bedbound for 3 months between June to August 1892. In late July 1892,
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Speaker A
her primary physician signed a form certifying her condition, noting that the patient suffered from pulmonary tuberculosis in both lungs, coughing blood, nightly fevers, sores on her legs, and large lupus ulcers on her face. Marie was transported to Lurs by
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stretcher on August 20th, 1892, where multiple witnesses and physicians observed her severely ulcerated face.
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Speaker A
Around 4 p.m. the following afternoon, the woman was lowered into the Lord's pools. And once she came out of the pools, she removed the bandages to discover that the wound on both her face and legs were completely closed. The
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Speaker A
formerly open ulcerations were closed, covered in new pink skin. Her nose, which had lost much of its cartilage, was also regenerated. This was witnessed by Marie's mother, who had traveled with her, along with several nurses who were present. Among these onlookers was an
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Speaker A
attending physician, Dr. Domeres, who would later recount his own experiences seeing the girl instantly cured instead of the horrible sore I had so lately seen. The service was red, it is true, but dry and covered with a new skin. He
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Speaker A
added that the comparable leg sore had also dried up in the pool. Marie's primary physician was equally astounded upon her return home, writing in her medical records in late August 1892, only around 10 days after her cure, that
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Speaker A
I am still deeply moved by having come into direct contact with this absolutely supernatural cure that Marie Learon had advanced tuberculosis. I had no doubt at all. And of this, I find no trace whatever. And Maria is another
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Speaker A
officially recognized Lord's healing. It's like her primary physician signed form certifying her condition in late July 1892. Only a month later, around 10 days after her cure, he's like, "Oh my gosh, uh this is absolutely supernatural." I had I had no doubt that she had
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Speaker A
advanced tuberculosis. And of this, I find no trace whatsoever. Testimony from Dr. Dombrace, multiple others, etc.
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Speaker A
Heck, Emil Zola, the famous rationalist novelist and critic of Lords himself saw Liaran both before and immediately after the cure. He engaged in massive coat by attributing the cure to female hysteria which we now know is fake. And yes,
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Speaker A
female hysteria would totally instantly regenerate new skin. Although to his credit that's a more plausible hypothesis than what contemporary naturalists have to say about Padre Pio and Fatima Mazour and Eucharistic mircles and Zetun and Coland canization miracles and Joseph Cupino and you know
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Speaker A
so on. Zola was naturalistically coping before it was cool. And this one's cool. Marie Burell 1907. Page 37 of Jackson's book goes through this one and we have and we have like her recently closed wounds photographed a few hours after
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Speaker A
her cure on August 22nd 1907. So um let's go to let's go to Jackson's book.
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Speaker A
One of the many examples of of a blatant healing of a vis of a visibly obvious condition is the cure of Marie Burell at the pools of lords in 1907 whose recovery involved a rapid regeneration of bodily tissue not unlike the healing
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of a damaged organ or missing limb. Miss Burell initially felt intense bouts of abdominal pain abdominal pain that eventually required appendecttomy in 1903 at the Montelier Hospital in France. 23-year-old initially survived the operation with no major complications until a large fistula
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Speaker A
began to form a few months later on her abdomen over the spot where the surgical incision had scarred over. A second operation was then performed to close the abscess but was unsuccessful instead leading to an additional fistula opening
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Speaker A
up soon afterwards. Some months later, a third fistula opened spontaneously on the iliac crest or pelvic bone followed by two more openings in the lumbar region. Marie was by this point largely bedbound for a 30-month period and unable to move unaded due to a
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Speaker A
progressively worsening form of ankylosis. Though no formal diagnosis was given, it is suspected that the abscesses were primarily caused by a form of seeum or gastrointestinal tuberculosis. Now 25 years old, Marie was in a miserable state. The French
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Speaker A
maiden was immobilized due to diseased joints, incontinent and caized for well over two years and in constant pain from six abdominal fistula, two of which both in her back, constantly secreted pus and had to have their dressings changed
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daily. The four fistula on her abdomen were so deep as to pierce her small intestine, excreting bouts of fecal matter all over her body. By April 1907, the woman lost the ability to have a normal bowel movement and now had nearly
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Speaker A
all excrement emptied through these fistula labeled by doctors to be a false anus. All attempts to treat this condition were now paliotative as Marie Ball was considered incurable. In August 1907, Marie was transported via stretcher to the Lord's shrine where no
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Speaker A
immediate change occurred. Nurses continued to change her gauze between August 19th and 20th, which were soaked with pus and fecal matter from the fistula. The prognosis took a drastic change the following day at 11:00 a.m.
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Speaker A
when Marie passed a normal bowel movement for the first time in 5 months. Later the same afternoon, Marie was lowered into the grotto of Our Lady where she suddenly regained enough strength to leave her stretcher and move on her own, something she had been
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unable to do since 1905. At this time, she also removed her catheter without complication and had regained full use of her bladder, most surprising, with a four fistula on her abdomen, which had suddenly closed and been covered with
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Speaker A
new skin and left her bandages bone dry for the first time in years. The cure would be completed the following day when the final two fistula on the back likewise closed over. The freshly closed wounds would be photographed only a few
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Speaker A
hours after the cure with the impressions of her former fistula clearly visible to the naked eye.
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Speaker A
Medical examinations by Lord's physicians Dr. Dlatz and Dr. Sable on August 22nd took place only hours after the initial healing and found Marie to have been completely and instantly cured. Her primary physician of many years remarked several weeks after that
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Speaker A
the patient had indeed been cured but but declined to provide an explanation. It it is indisput it is indisputable that she was cured at Lords contrary to all expectation. My friend Dr. H who comes from the Paris hospitals and is a
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Speaker A
pupil of Shako when consulted by me about the case abstained from offer offering any medical interpretation. I can only do as he has done since I belong to the same school which bows before the evidence of facts even when
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Speaker A
the explanation of the facts is lacking. Follow-up consultations showed no signs of relapse in her condition. One of the practitioners present at the time of the miracle would publish his medical commentary discussing Reeberl's recovery in the Roman Catholic Journal. Okay, so
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Speaker A
there do seem to be some like pretty highly well-ec medical healing miracles associated with Lord. Like what's going on here?
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Speaker A
Well, God seems to be putting his stamp of approval, as I said, on those initial apparitions. It would be utterly bizarre for God to go out of his way to do like the most insane string of medically of
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Speaker A
concentrated medically documented healing miracles over a demonic apparition or someone who's just like a delusional schizophrenic person, right?
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Speaker A
So then what are the vindicatory implications? Well, the immaculate conception. Mary literally said, "I am the immaculate conception." The immaculate conception is a distinctively Catholic doctrine. Also, the doctrine was dogmatized just like four years prior by the pope. to the timing of some
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Speaker A
evidence of the pope's authority to define dogmas the rosary and in turn the assumption and coronation. Mary was literally praying the rosary along with Bernardet which recall meditates on mysteries like the assumption and coronation of Mary and devotion and
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Speaker A
intercession like obviously you know like the healings are literally wrought through the intercession of our lady of lords once again vicarious participatory satisfaction is vindicated here according to the official lord's account during the eth apparition on February 24th 1858 the lady told Bernardet
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Speaker A
penance penance penance pray to god for sinners kiss the ground as an act of penance for sinners this vindicates Catholic theology of vicarious participatory satisfaction for sin just like St. Pio Ma Adam BL Fatima. It's almost like God is screaming that
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Speaker A
Protestantism is false, but we'll get back to that. Okay, onwards we march to Zetune. This one has a special place in my heart because it was a massive source of cognitive dissonance when I was, you know, very skeptical. Um, there's an
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Speaker A
excellent book on the topic by Travis Dumay, the Marian apparitions at Zetune and evidential inquiry. There's also a really good video here on our lady of Zetune by Jimmy Akin. I will let Dr.
331:34
Speaker A
Dumsday introduce the Marian apparitions at Zetune. The focus of that book, the Marian apparitions at Zaiton, uh is on the largest uh mass religious experiences in modern recorded history, which took place from uh April 1968 through May 1971 in a suburb of Cairo,
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Speaker A
uh Egypt called Zetun. And so basically what happened there was uh beginning on April 2nd, the evening of April 2nd, 1968, um people began seeing this glowing floating female figure above um St. Mary's Coptic Orthodox Church in Ziton. And the initial witnesses to this
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Speaker A
event were mostly Muslim. I mean, Egypt's a 90% majority Muslim country uh today as it was back then.
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Speaker A
Uh uh but you know nevertheless the these events became uh word of these events quickly became known in the neighborhood and um moreover this glowing floating female figure started reappearing on succeeding evenings. You know not in any regular pattern but
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Speaker A
regular enough that you started to get tens of thousands of people camping in front camping around the church every night. uh the Egyptian government had to tear down the public transit station across the street from the church to
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Speaker A
make more room for people who were were crowding in uh to see these events.
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Speaker A
And so and and these events were widely covered by the uh the Egyptian media at the time. Uh scholars uh from the American University in Cairo were writing about them as they were happening. folks like um Otto Minardis
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Speaker A
and Cynthia Nelson uh were were um writing about these events as they were occurring. Uh and so we have really good both scholarly and journalistic sources on these events as they were occurring.
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Speaker A
We have a wealth of direct eyewitness testimony uh from the time both from the time the events were occurring and also in succeeding decades as researchers have talked to eyewitnesses and recorded their testimony. And so we know that
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Speaker A
massive numbers of people saw these phenomena which included not just the the glowing floating female figure that was, you know, generally identified as the Virgin Mary or assumed to be the Virgin Mary by the the witnesses, but also other anomalous lights. Um bizarre
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Speaker A
sort of clouds floating around the church that people were seeing. Uh these glowing floating figures that were thought to be sort of dovehaped entities. Um and of course a huge range of also claims of miraculous healings taking place while all this was going on
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Speaker A
which were investigated by a medical commission set up by the Coptic patriarchade at the time again some of which were extremely well documented. Uh so with all this so basically these events started again u spring 1968 they were occurring at greatest frequency
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Speaker A
during roughly the first year of the events. After that, they sort of gradually tapered off and by the time of the final event in May 1971, you know, the crowds assembled at the church had really petered out because the events
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Speaker A
were occurring much less frequently. But researchers who tried to figure out uh you know over overall how many people saw these events while they were occurring over the course of this three-year period. I've seen different numerical estimates, some higher, some
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Speaker A
lower. I think Daniel Fenu in his um uh in his 2019 book has a pretty reasonable estimate of about a million people who witnessed uh one or another sort of seemingly supernatural occurrence at this church over the course of these
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Speaker A
events. And so in the book, what I'm doing is just sort of reviewing the history of the these events, both, you know, the the events themselves, but also the sort of the historical context in which they were taking place. looking
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Speaker A
at a wide assortment of uh sample eyewitness testimonies of what was going on and then just running through um the the whole series uh looking at the various scientific explanations that have been suggested for what might have been going on and trying to argue that
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Speaker A
none of these scientific explanations these are sort of naturalistic explanations are particularly convincing. And so the upshot of the book, the overarching argument or thesis of the book is that at the moment these this particular series of mass religious
335:53
Speaker A
experiences in Egypt constitute pretty good evidence for the reality of the supernatural. You know, not definitive.
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Speaker A
It's always possible someone might come up with a much better uh scientific explanations for what was going on, but I think at the moment the way the evidence stands, the these occurrences are actually pretty pretty evidentially compelling.
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Speaker A
Awesome. So we've got as I see it two main planks of this case. First establishing the relevant data or the evidence in question right the stuff to be explained and then secondly proposing and comparing various explanations some of which are going to be naturalistic
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Speaker A
some of which are going to be non-naturalistic. I know you mentioned various bits of data but maybe let's camp out a little bit on some of the data. So, we seem to have I think it's in the number of thousands of eyewitness
336:39
Speaker A
testimonial reports, right? Including um ones that were collected afterwards, but also tons that were collected at the time. Wasn't there like a rolling newspaper which included like firsthand eyewitness accounts that were taken down by journalists?
336:52
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. So there's actually there's a French scholar uh Sandrreen Kerkos um whose work I I cite in the book and she actually did the painstaking work of just combing through the Arab language media at the time and just literally she
337:07
Speaker A
counted up all the eyewitness testimonies that were were printed in this particular newspaper that that had a special focus on on these events. and she counted more than 2,400 eyewitness testimonies that were published um as these events were
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Speaker A
occurring. And that's just in the Arabic the Arabic newspaper right? Yeah. Right. So then we've also got um a number of different testimonies in French and in English um by people from all different strands of society as well, you know.
337:34
Speaker A
Yeah. And there was a little bit I mean by and large the Western media didn't pay a whole lot of attention to these events as they were occurring, but there was some coverage. So the New York Times for example um did a story on Zitune in
337:46
Speaker A
April 1968 and you know reported that in as the their reporter um the wording he used was that countless Egyptians had seen these seemingly supernatural events at the church at the time Reuters you know the wire service did some reporting
338:03
Speaker A
on this at the time as well so it there was some wider media attention but but by and large it it's still the especially the Arabic language Egyptian press at the time was focusing on it.
338:13
Speaker A
Another aspect of the data is like photographic stuff and potential posity of that. We'll get to that in a second.
338:20
Speaker A
Um, but I just want to lay out the data for the audience. So, again, you kind of did a brief tour through some of these phenomena, but I just want to camp on them. So, we've got a number of
338:30
Speaker A
different seemingly kind of anomalous phenomena being testified to very consistently across these testimonial reports, both immediately after the events on the nights on which they occurred, the days afterwards, and the subsequent years where people did various different investigations,
338:45
Speaker A
talking to witnesses and whatnot. Some of the things that were testified to include, as you said, these luminous doveike objects where people just describe them as being the shape of a dove or shape of a pigeon. Often times
338:58
Speaker A
people would actually describe seeing them kind of like materialize like they would see them spontaneously appear and then fly through the air without flapping their quote unquote wings, right? Sometimes they would fly in formations, sometimes in the shape of a
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Speaker A
cross. And also people testified to seeing these things just kind of spontaneously fizzle out um kind of spontaneously disappear. So that's the doves. There were also the various healings that you mentioned. There was a the medical commission set up to
339:24
Speaker A
investigate a number of the different healings. I'd like you to maybe walk us through those in a second, but I just want to lay this out for the audience.
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Speaker A
Thirdly, we have the kind of main apparition, the the female figure that is amply testified to, including we have testimony, ample testimonies to like intentional movements on the part of this figure, including walking, blessing, kneeling before the cross,
339:45
Speaker A
holding different objects and whatnot. And then we have different like anomalous cloud phenomena that was pretty amply attested to together with like a deep and beautiful scent of incense pervading the area that's very well attested to as well. Okay. So like
339:59
Speaker A
hundreds of thousands of people repeatedly saw a luminous female figure in various other phenomena at top a Coptic Orthodox church in Zu Egypt from 1968 to 1971. Okay. So here are some basic facts. The figure was amply attested to being threedimensional,
340:11
Speaker A
taking on a distinctively female shape, performing intentional movements like blessing the crowd, kneeling before the cross, and bearing morally and religiously significant symbols like holding an olive branch, holding a baby interpreted as the Christ child. The apparition had variable beginnings
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including materialization out of clouds, out of bald light, uh, and out like from a thin slit of light. Sometimes the figure was present for minutes. Other times, the apparition lasted for hours on end. There were many instantaneous organic medically tested healings
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associated with the apparition, including healings from palpable tumors, blindness muteness hernas paralysis etc. Luminous dove-shaped figures were seen to spontaneously appear in the sky, fly without flapping their quote unquote wings, sometimes in the formation of a cross, and then spontaneously disappear.
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A perimeter search found no evidence of projectors and cutting off power to the church's neighborhood did not stay the apparition. In fact, the night they cut off the power in the neighborhood, the apparition reportedly lasted 2 hours and
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15 minutes. Mysterious anomalous clouds were reported above the church, even when the rest of the sky was entirely cloudless. Bishop Gregorius reported the appearance of deep reddish clouds which rose to a height of 30 to 60 feet and
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were visible above the church against a colorless sky. This was also accompanied by a pleasant fragrance of incense.
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Sometimes the clouds only remained for 10 to 15 minutes accompanied by beautiful fragrance and then disappeared. Let's camp out on the major aspects of Zetune. So the apparition itself, the dove-like figures, the clouds of incense, the healings, the
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photos, attempted naturalistic explanations and objections. And here I'm drawing often directly from a fantastic article by Caleb Jackson which we will actually go to and read some of it because it's just beautiful article.
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I mean it's it's just very very good. The fir the first witness Farukq Atwa was interviewed for the April 27th 1968 edition about the moment when he and others realized that the figure was no ordinary woman. I was inside the garage
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when I heard people shouting in the street. I ran to see what the matter was. I saw a lady in white standing on the north dome of the church. She was dressed like a nun and seemed about to
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throw herself down to the pavement below. I shouted at her to be careful. Then someone cried, "This is the Virgin Mary." Suddenly, luminous white doves appeared and flew above her. Doves, by the way, don't normally fly at night.
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Another garage worker by the name of Moan Aifi would hear Farooq shouting in excitement. Running over to the church, Mr. AI declares that he saw a lady moving over the dome with supernatural light. In an official affidavit submitted a few weeks following this
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episode, many other witnesses, all practicing Muslims, would sign off to the claim that they had seen our lady moving around the church on the night of April April 2nd. A teenage witness who would later grow up to become an
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Orthodox priest recollected his own experience of the apparition the same night after seeing it from a different angle. Unlike Mr. Otwa, the following witness was in a nearby building with a side view of the figure. The image he
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saw outside his apartment window impacted him forever. It was Tuesday, April 2nd in 1968 at 7 p.m. and the sun was almost hidden. On the other side of the street, there was a large garage for buses. Those who worked there were all
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Muslims. We had good relations with them. They banged on the door. I opened the window of my room and asked, "What's going on?" The man said to me, "Your sister, she's on top of the church and is going to kill herself." I responded,
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"My sister is in here asleep." Oh, I should say this is a religious sister, by the way. It's like kind of like a nun of sorts, right? He's not actually talking about his sister. My sister is in here asleep. She's here inside, not
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on the roof of the church. Although barefoot, I jumped out of the window to see what was happening at the church.
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Then looking up, I saw that it was the Virgin. It is exactly like the statue that you see there. The same thing exactly. You know that the Dome of Zun is sloping. She was standing on that slope. She did not fall. She was in
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front of the cross. Her clothing was like silk. I did not see the details of her face, nor of her hands or feet. It was a fabric of light that billowed in the air, but it was in the form of the
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Virgin that I'd always known since my early childhood. Police began to shoe away the huddled masses, telling them that the light was nothing more than a reflection from the street lamps surrounding the roads below. These lights were then shut off, but the
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figure still remained. One of the engineers employed in the garage would later testify in a radio interview to having been one of those involved with slashing the power grid. I was in doubt of the transfiguration as there were
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lights or street lights in front of the church. So, I turned off these lights and I was surprised when the light of the figure increased more and more when the electricity was turned off many times and every time the light increased
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to shine. Dr. Carrie Malik witnessed the operation on May 4th, 1968. He recounts the events as one of the most impactful of his life. Before 8:30 p.m. that night, I managed to reach the iron fence of the church, which was closed at this
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hour, and held on to it. The roof of the church was dark, but I had some strange feeling that something was about to happen. At about 8:30 p.m., a light appeared inside the southwest dome. The light increased immensely, and suddenly,
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she stood on the roof outside the dome. The crowds cheered and shouted, calling on her in different ways. After a while, she began to go to the northern side where I stood, and on her way, she knelt in front of the western cross and stood
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near the north end of the roof just above me at a distance of about 13 yards away. So, that's about 40 ft away. She looked young and beautiful, thin, tall, dressed in a whitish blue long dress that covered her feet and a veil of the
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same color on her head. She was luminous but not very glittering and looked very human. Her features were clear and unforgettable. She looked towards the area where I stood and she smiled. I believe I saw her teeth as she smiled. I
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found myself trembling and my tears were running down uncontrollably. Before I went to the church that day, I was I prepared in my mind five or six requests to ask from her. One of them was to be cured of asthma from which I had
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suffered for a long time. I threw the asthma medicine away that night and never took it again. I stood there watching the heavenly view for about an hour. There are thousands of direct contemporaneous eyewitness testimonies in Arabic newspapers at the time. Here's
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one of the thousands. I saw her in full form at dawn last Tuesday from 2:45 a.m.
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until 500 a.m. Two white doves appeared around her and a cloud-like mist gathered and suddenly became illuminated. I saw the luminous cloud-like form filled with light, moving, nodding her head and bestowing blessings. And all those present saw her. When she moved, she would become a
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line of light, then turn her face to the point that people were almost overcome.
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She appeared several times. On one occasion, she appeared for a long period from 11:30 a.m. until 2:00 p.m. and and ascended above the dome. I saw the complete form surrounded by a halo that extended from above the head to around
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the entire body. Each time she appeared, she manifested different characteristics. When I saw her, the predominant color was light blue.
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Palmer's contemporaneous 1969 book on the marine apparitions published a number of direct eyewitness accounts including from hiring king Coptic clerics for Bishop Samuel Bishop besides witnessing the phenomena of the birds which preceded the appearance of our lady was favored twice in a single night
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to see the apparition at 2:45 in the morning the blessed virgin appeared in a complete luminous body as a radiant phosphorescent statue after a short while the apparition vanished. It reappeared at 4:00 and remained until 5:00 dawn. The scene was overwhelming
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and a magnificent. The apparition walked toward the west sometimes moving its hands in blessing and sometimes bowing repeatedly. A halo of light surrounded its head. I saw some glittering beings around the apparition. They looked like stars, rather blue in color. Here's
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Bishop Gregorius. The most wonderful scene I experienced was the one under the northeast dome above an icon of our lady. It occurred on the feast of the flight of the Holy Family, June 1st.
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About 9 or 9:30 at night, a light appeared in the center of the opening beneath the small dome. The light took the shape of a sphere moving up and down. Then, very slowly, it moved out through the supporting archway and took
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the form of St. Mary. It lasted 2 or 3 minutes, and as usual, people shouted to her. She usually acknowledges their greetings with both hands, or with one if she is holding the olive branch or the Christ child. She looked somewhat
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happy and smiling, but somewhat sad, always kindly. She then returned to the dome, and the figure became again a round ball of light, and gradually faded into the darkness. After about 10 minutes, the cycle started again. I saw
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it several times between 10 p.m. and 3:30 a.m. at about 10-minute intervals. As she disappear under one dome, and darkness had come, she should appear under another of the domes or over the entrance into the courtyard. It was St.
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Mary in complete form that I saw, head to foot, very bright, not bluish, yet not hurting the eyes. It actually seemed to soothe the eyes. No features were visible, no features could be distinguished, but the outline was that
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of a very beautiful figure. This scene I saw countless times. There's also the phenomenon of the incense. The smoke of incense, very bright, comes out of the large dome in unbelievable quantities.
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The cloud goes up to 10 or 20 meters or more. It is dark red. There is no other cloud in the sky but the one over the dome. It then takes the form of St. Mary as stars appear and disappear over the
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church. Palmer relates lots of other testimonies too. For for example, you know, here's Mr. uh Wadey Tadros Shambo.
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After several weeks, he and a group of six colleagues and acquaintances together had a dramatic experience. At about 9:50, we saw lightning over the church, much stronger than one we could make with a flashlight. I had a feeling
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something was about to happen. A thin line, a thin line or edge of light appeared like the light you see when you open the doors through a lighted room.
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Within seconds, it formed itself into the shape of the Virgin. Miss Nelly Nabi Wisf had two sightings of the glowing birds which she described not as flying away but as disappearing while she was looking at them. Pearlzaki herself an
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eyewitness also published a book interviewing direct eyewitnesses. For example, here's a testimony from from medical doctor Zarif F. Mal Malati, who was living in New York at the time of the interview with Zaki. At 9:15 p.m., white luminous doves started to appear
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in the sky suddenly by ones, twos, or threes. They disappear suddenly on the top of Zetune Church. No sounds or wing movements were noticed. They moved fast.
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Bright light that sweeps the upper third or half of the church wall facing the street. There was a strong smell of incense with columns of cloud. You cannot get this strong smell from thousands of sensors. The church was
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closed and nobody was inside. And then he goes on to describe the apparition itself. Ecumenical investigations. So word of the virgin's visit quickly spread to the ranking to the ranking clergy of the Coptic Orthodox Church.
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Father Constantine Musa, the head priest serving at St. Mary's Church, had not been present on the night of April 2nd when the mother of God first appeared.
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However, the priest would collect testimony from several witnesses who were present that night, along with further testimony from witnesses claiming that she had reappeared on April 9th into the morning of the 10th.
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It was these later dates that Father Musa claimed to have finally seen Mary with his own eyes. His first account made it into his official signed letter up to the Coptic Pope. On the same Wednesday, April 10th at night, I was
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again reinformed of a very new appearance which the nuns of the Catholic school near hurried to observe.
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I could see the apparition quite clear and evident. I saw the operation of the blessed virgin at the time in the form of a bus that is the upper half in one of the openings of the dome at the
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northeast. It was a luminous body of a golden color. The head of the Orthodox church decided to take matters into his own hands uh with Coptic Pope Curillos V 6th sending his delegation to investigate further. On April 6th,
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Carill's trusted adviser, Bishop Athanasius, who traveled to St. Mary's Church in Zetun to see if there was any credibility to the sightings that had taken place 4 days earlier. On April the 6th, Curillus' trusted adviser, Bishop Athanasius, would travel to St. Mary's
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Church in Zetune to see if there was any credibility to the sightings that had taken place 4 days prior. Around 11 p.m., the excited crowds pointed Athanasius to a faint silhouette on the church's wall that many believed to
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resemble the Virgin Mary. The bishop could faintly make out the figure. He was underwhelmed and did not think the form to be anything out of the ordinary.
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However, by 3:45 that morning, April 7th, Bishop Athanasius would return to the building to see the Virgin in her full form. Something like fluorescent lamps began to illumin the sky.
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Suddenly, there she was, standing in full figure. The crowd was tremendous. It was too difficult to move among the people, but I tried and worked my way in front of the figure. There she was, 5 or 6 meters above the dome, high in the
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sky, full figure, like a phosphorous statue, but not so stiff as a statue. There was movement to the body and of the clothing. In an hour or so, I think I stood before the figure eight or nine times.
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I returned to the little house or office building south of the church. I stood inside for 1 hour from 4:00 to 5:00 looking at the figure. It never disappeared. Our lady looked to the north. She waved her hand. She blessed
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the people sometimes in the direction where she stood. Her garments swayed in the wind. She was very quiet, full of glory. It was something really supernatural, very, very heavenly. So, he's like staring at this for like an hour on end. I saw a large I saw a large
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strange pigeon. It came from behind us. I don't know where. Proceeded to the church and returned. Several bright spotlights moved quickly over us. It was something really above human experience that attracted and captivated us. I stood there and tried to distinguish the
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face and features. I can say I can I can say there was something about the eyes and mouth I could see, but I could not make out the features. That continued until about 5 minutes before 5. The apparition then began to grow fainter
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little by little. The light gave way to a cloud bright at first, then less and less bright until it disappeared.
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On May 4th, a different Coptic clergyman, B, Gregoris, was able to view the apparition while inside the church.
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She had first viewed the upper half of the figure from the streets uh around 4:00 a.m. Journing inside the church, he would climb a ladder to view her more clearly from the central dome's windows where he clearly made out the upper
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portions settled in the space of in the building's cupula. Intrigued by the bishop's recountings, Pope Gerilloth V 6th authorized a larger commission to visit St. Mary's Church on April 23rd.
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Headed by Father Hana Abdeli and Father Camel, many witnesses, particularly those who first saw the operation on April 2nd and 3rd, were recorded with their sworn testimonies intact. Both priests claimed that they had themselves seen the Virgin during one of these
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nights in late April, so that in their words, we would have the matter cleared up plainly and evidentially. The report describes this encounter as beginning with a luminous circle above the church, which eventually took the full form of
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the Virgin Mary. The entity then began to circle the domes of the church, kneeling before each cross mounted on top of said domes. She then turned to the excited crowd and extended her arms to bless them. On another occasion, both
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priests report seeing luminous doves flying around the top of St. Mary's Church. And again, doves don't fly at night. The Coptic Pope was soon persuaded that something supernatural had taken place. The commission's report would officially be publicized through a
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press conference on May 4th with a positive verdict. The apparitions were an exploable and were by the judgment of the church supernatural manifestations of the blessed virgin Mary. Here's a press release from the Coptic Church.
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Since the evening of Tuesday, April 2nd, 1968, our lady, the mother of light, has appeared repeatedly at the Coptic Orthodox Church, bearing her name on Tamande Street in the district of Zetun, Cairo. These apparitions have continued over many different nights and various
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forms. At times, she appears in full figure and at other times in half-length forms, surrounded by a shimmering halo of radiant light. Sometimes she appeared through the openings of the church domes and at other times outside them. She was
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seen moving and walking above the domes, bowing before the upper cross, which would then shine with a brilliant light.
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She would face the onlookers, blessing them with her hands and gentle movements of her holy head. At times, she appeared as a luminous figure resembling the form of a bright cloud or as pure light, often preceded by swiftly moving
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spiritual forms resembling doves. Thousands of citizens from different religions and denominations, as well as foreigners, members of the clergy, scholars, professionals, and people from all walks of life have affirmed with absolute certainty that they witnessed her. Their collective testimonies
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agreeing on the form, position, and timing of the vision constitute unanimous evidence that the apparition of our lady, the mother of light, in this area is extraordinary and self-evident beyond the need for further confirmation and explanation. The papal
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residents collected information on all these events through individual clergy and investigative committees who personally examined and verified the apparitions. They documented their findings in detailed reports submitted to his holiness Pope Sirill V 6th. In issuing the statement, the papal
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residence declares with complete faith, great joy, and humble thanksgiving before the divine majesty that our lady, the mother of light, has continued to appear in clear and consistent forms on many different nights for varying durations, some lasting more than two
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hours without interruption. There were state and media investigations. So, the first nights of the apparition, local law enforcement had discouraged large crowds gathering around the tightly packed city square by dismissing the apparition as a reflection of the city's
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many street lights. The widely reported narrative is that authorities then tried to disable these street lights with the hopes of snuffing out the radiant figure. This was a complete failure. The being remained more luminous than ever.
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Pearl Zaki summarizes the multiple failed attempts at shutting off the operation's light. As the crowds became larger and some of the people became frantic over the possibility of it being a hoax, the government authorities realized that people must be protected
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against this. Some some are beginning to tear out the electrical wires, saying that it was a trick. Many climbed trees to get to the top of the church to try to touch the apparition. Authorities investigated a 15-mi radius to see if
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any electronic devices etc were used. They turned every inch. But after making thorough investigations and with the help of the blessed virgin who kept coming again and again, they became convinced of his authenticity and gave orders to prepare the church in the
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surrounding area to receive her properly. So then they, you know, they tore down buildings, they tore down trees and whatnot and basically started implementing like crowd control measures.
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Cynthia Nelson, an anthropology professor visiting Zatun in April 1968, noted that the source of the light was a mystery, for the street lights had been disconnected all around the church for several days. One researcher notes another instance years later on February
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14th, 1970 where the electricity went off. The church was black. Even in the darkness of the night, there came the mother of god very bright for a quarter of an hour. Along with turning off the power grid, one essential point of
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inquiry would be to search for any suspicious objects placed on the roof itself. Zaki mentions that many people climbed trees to get to the top of the church to try to touch the apparition.
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Whether or not anyone was successful is less clear. What is known is that the Egyptian newspaper Alura had conducted its own investigation in April 1968 by sending its reporters up to examine the church's canopy. According to the periodical, each of the five domes was
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checked for any signs of foul play. All domes were empty, save for two of the structures containing the church's bells.
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We also have footage from documentary crew filming the nighttime crowds while standing on the roof of St. Mary's Church. Further indication that, you know, several parties managed to be on top of the church's roof where foul play could have been detected. We have a
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photograph taken from the roof of St. Mary's as each of the five domes was inspected for suspicious devices.
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Egypt's government would conduct its own assessment of the Marin apparition spearheaded through the Department of Inquiries within the Egyptian Ministry of Tourism. The official report seems to confirm the earlier testimonies of the government's manipulation of the power grid only to be thwarted by the
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apparition's persistence. The secular Egyptian government would leave no ambiguity in its conclusions. The official investigations have been carried out with the results that has been considered an undeniable fact that the blessed virgin Mary has been appearing on Zetun church in a clear and
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bright luminous body seen by all present in front of the church whether Christian or Muslim. Her appearance these days in Cairo is distinguished by complete clarity. She appears in a state of divine light before the gathered crowds.
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And her appearance is not limited to Christians or to one of their sex alone, but has encompassed all beliefs, sects, and religions alike. Her appearance was repeated several times from one night to another. And her appearance is accompanied by signs of miracles. And
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the crowds were insane. You know, we got like pictures of people in the crowds.
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Sometimes I think like the estimates were up to like a hundred thousand or even hundreds of thousands in the crowds themselves. The streets of Zetune would be packed so tightly full of people that movement was almost impossible. One
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witness recounted that we had to stand perfectly upright like statues, our arms hanging at our sides, barely able to breathe. Once we were inside the crowd, it was almost impossible to get out before people dispersed at sunrise. And
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another interesting point to note is the extensive lengths of time many were able to observe her. Certainly, some claimed to have only glanced at her briefly before she disappeared in the darkness.
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But many research but many remember watching her for tens of minutes, sometimes even hours. On some dates like May 4th to 5th, June 8th to 9th, 1968, the apparition was routinely seen from 8:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m. appearing so
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regularly that locals had time to watch the figure, travel back home, bring their families back to the site, and then watch her together. And then this this was my absolute favorite part of um Ko's post, the converging testimonies,
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the massive amount of the massive quantity of testimonies has much force on its own merits, but one may ask about the quality of the reports coming out as a tune. Admittedly, there is a great deal of diversity in the accounts we
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possess. In most cases, this is because the phenomenon itself was varied from night to night and hour to hour. what might what might begin as a ball of light at 11 pm could transform into a full body image of our lady around 1:00
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am the same night factor in the huge size of the crowds and the near you know infinite vantage points of the witnesses and you know we're left with many testimonies containing variance and yeah I mean like again like there is this
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objection that some people pose from like testimonial variance but like first again most of it is explainable by prosaic factors together with variable objective manifestations right people observed on different nights different times of a given night different situatedness in relation to the church
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partial or full obstruction of view by onlookers or buildings or trees was there. You know, people were at varying distances. Some were hundreds of feet away. Some were maybe even thousands of feet away. Some people were only like 30
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feet away or 60 feet away. They were all being like at especially in later on with especially later on with the apparition, a lot of them were like packed super tightly in a massive crowd, right? And that can affect your viewing
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conditions in like your state of mind. And speaking of state of mind, you know, there are people who are in a state of excitability or anxiety or fear, etc.
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So, like there are lots of different like totally ordinary prosaic factors um that that can explain testimonial divergence. And actually, as we're about to see, there's actually highly evidentially independent convergences and undesigned coincidences. And Caleb goes on to say that like systematic
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studies of the testimonies by Dr. John Jackson and Dr. VC Muso actually paint a significantly consistent and cross-croborating picture of the events.
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As Caleb says, most of these modifications uh dissipate once proper factors like time, date, and location are accounted for. Indeed, one is impressed with just how consistent some of these narratives are in their more specific details. In many cases,
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independent testimonies subtly recount very distinct features that seem to be more than mere happen stance. In epistemology, these sort of undesigned coincidences lend credence to accepting testimonies of this kind as likely true.
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So, there are these like striking conversion details from independent witnesses as as we're about to see on like the same night in the same time.
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Um, it'll be cool and I think and they get like better and better. So, um, let's let's look. Oh, and as Caleb says, below are just a few examples where two or more witnesses as a June present during the same time period recounted
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strikingly convergent details. Example number one, a slit of light. In April 1968, a professor at the Cairo School of Art, Sophie Gurgus, would claim to visit St. Mary's Church during the height of the apparition's popularity. Though her viewing angle was
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poor for most of the night, she eventually managed to see a vertical light appear above the corner of the church as a bar before gradually transforming into the bodily figure of Mother Mary as it ascended into the air.
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Another witness by the name of Louisis Camel would likewise describe a very similar transformation sequence the same month. Given the general time frame and descriptions of each witness, it seems extremely probable that both of these women are independently recalling the
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same event. But also, like even if they aren't, it's pretty striking that even on different nights, they would like testify to like a very strikingly convergent detail about the the origin of the apparition. So, here's a testimony of um Gurgus. Professor
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Gurgus' experience occurred in that first month of April 1968 around 3:30 a.m. She was able to see something above one of the corners of the building. It looked like a vertical bar of light.
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Gurgus states that I thought it was a metallic bar set up on the roof and brightly glowing. That bar of light then seemed to detach itself from the roof area and float in the air. From the lower end of the bar of light, a figure
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gradually began to emerge from the bottom up until the full image of the Virgin Mary was visible. Her head was covered with a very thin bluish colored veil. After a while, the apparition gradually began to become less clearly
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visible and then it disappeared completely. Professor Gertis reported that her sighting lasted a total of 40 to 45 minutes. Testimony of Louisis Camel. In April of 1968, we heard about the apparitions of the Virgin Mary on top of the Coptic Church in Zetune. When
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a close trustworthy friend assured me of their of her appearance, I did not hesitate to go to see her with my own eyes. Suddenly, a thin long stream of blue flescent light appeared between the central dome and the northeastern one.
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This thin long stream of light became wider and wider developing the shape of the beloved Virgin Mary kneeling in front of the cross on top of the central dome. Another account by Wade Shambo describes a very similar feature though
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at a different time of night on an unspecified date. According to Mr. Shamboat, he saw a a thin line or edge of light appeared on the church like the light you see when you open the door to a lighted room.
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Within seconds, it formed itself into the shape of the Virgin. If we pull from if we pull from accounts taken from the same night, these correlations continue to occur. Consider the testimony from two independent witnesses on the night/m
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morning of April 12th 13th who both claimed that the apparition started as a halo of light before taking full form. I first saw the halo then I saw the virgin completely and then Louise from the chapel of the church from the side of
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the little alley. We saw a light which was not normal something like the sun orange and then a halo like in an icon.
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It was then the image of the virgin. So like in so like independent test like independent testimonies are describing like very similar beginnings to the apparition and then also like like either as a thin slit of light or you
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know on the same night starting as a halo and then taking the full shape of a virgin. Okay. Example number two cyclical transformations of the apparition.
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Another great example of seeming convergence comes from two independent testimonies from the night of June 1st 1968. The same day the Coptic church recognized the feast of the flag of the Holy Family.
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The Coptic Bishop Gregorius and Dr. Zadif Malt both attest that around 9:30 p.m. that night, a rounded light appeared on the church's northeastern dome and gradually moved across the roof before taking the form of the Virgin.
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Dr. Malate saw Oh, and by the way, like this is this is showing that they can distinguish perceptually between a ball of light or an amorphous blob and then a full figure of the Virgin Mary. Dr.
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Malatee saw her upper body in human form but could not distinguish her other features. Whether this was due to his placement of the crowd is not specified.
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Bishop Gagorius described Mother Mary as looking slightly sad but wearing a pain smile on her face. She greeted the crowds with hand gestures. Our Lady then transformed back into a radiant ball after a few minutes before disappearing.
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Both witnesses agree that this process would repeat several times in 10-minute cycles until about 3:30 a.m. And both mentioned large incense clouds surrounding the church that emitted a pleasant odor. These accounts taken down to the same night and hour are
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remarkable in just how similar they are. Again, same night, independent testimonies. Let's go through these by a by a bishop and a doctor.
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Okay. Time. The bishop says about 9 or 9:30 at night. The doctor says doves appeared at 9:15. Main apparition begins about 9:30.
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Location. Bishop says under the northeast dome above an icon of our lady. Doctor says most of the apparitions show in the northeastern dome. Okay. Light appears. So bishop says a light appeared in the center of the opening beneath the dome. Dr. uh
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Malate says light appeared from the deep part of the top of the dome inside.
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Okay. You should have got like exact time, exact location, the beginning. So the same sort of beginning a light appears the light transformation. Bishop says light took the shape of a sphere then took the form of St. Mary. The
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doctor says light started as a candle coming down like a rounded ball and then shaped like St. Mary. Okay. So the exact same transformation is happening that they're describing on the same night and at the same time same location where the
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dome is and then the same light appears and then it takes the shape of a ball and then it takes the shape of Mary. Hm.
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Intervals. So, the bishop says after about 10 minutes, the cycle started again. It occurred about 10-minute intervals between 10 p.m. and 3:30 a.m.
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Doctor says other appearances continued showing almost every 10 minutes in exactly the same manner. I saw her until I left at 12:30 a.m. Reports continued till 3:30. Bro, the apparition bishop says it lasted two or three minutes. Very bright, not
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hurting the eyes. No features were visible, but it appeared in complete form from head to foot. It then became again a round ball of light and gradually faded. Doctor says it lasted about 1 minute. So again, like lasted
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two or three minutes, about one minute like this is how long this is how long they're describing one of the apparitions are.
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And and that and that's like pretty convergent. I mean, it's easy to get like 1 minute versus 2 minutes wrong. It was very bright, not well defined, but hazy. We couldn't differentiate features. So they're both saying they so
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they're both saying that they couldn't differentiate features. Started as a half shape, then was seen moving forwards, backwards, sideways, and bending. When she disappeared, it suddenly leaving behind complete darkness. Incense. So the bishop says the smoke of incense very bright comes
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out of the large dome in unbelievable quantities. The cloud goes up to 10 or 20 meters or more. It is dark red. There are there is no other cloud in the sky but the one over the dome. Doctor says
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there was a strong smell of incense with columns of cloud. You cannot get this strong smell from thousands of sensors.
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Look at all these like striking convergences between independent testimonies. Pretty cool if you ask me. Okay. Example number three. Queen of heaven. The following is a brief account by Isaac Gerggas Nagibb who describes seeing a strange light on top of St. Mary's
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Church the night of April 27th around 11:00 the Saturday night around 11:00 on Saturday night April 27th 1968 I saw a brilliant bluish light like fluorescent about 1 and a half m long and 40 cm wide moving and circling around the dome and
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the cross for more than an hour before I left that sacred place. Mr. Nagib's account indicates that he watched the figure from 11 p.m. to sometime after midnight into the morning of April 28th.
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A second witness, an Austrian tourist named Fraolan Vonvienne, picks up the story independently by reporting her own sighting of the Virgin around 1:00 a.m.
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that same morning. Miss Vonvi describes seeing our lady engulfed in light in a manner reminiscent of Mr. Nikiv's account, but then claims that the figure transformed into two other forms, a haloed woman followed by a heavenly queen wearing the crown. And later on,
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we're going to go through like a table which shows these. This is just like setting up the uh the undesigned coincidences here. So, like the table gets really cool. So, here's Miss Vonvienne. On Saturday the 28th, we planned to go out to Zetun and spend the
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night outside. Uh, at half 1 in the morning, I saw a large light and heard people saying, "Elnor, Elnor, the light, the light." I saw her more closely. Now, I see a radiant, beautiful, very bright female figure surrounded by radiant
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light. She has changed constantly once because of Maria's trans Maria's transformations. Instead of the great light around her, she was suddenly like a large sundisk larger than a saint's disc. The halo shown large, brilliantly bright, so bright that I couldn't see her face.
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Suddenly, instead of the large halo, a crown appeared on her head. The mother of God was so beautiful, even though I couldn't see her face clearly. She was young. She seemed very young.
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Miss Vonvienne does not indicate how long her experience lasted, but she does imply that on the morning of the April 28th, the final form she witnessed to Mary was her adorned with a crown as the queen of heaven. Now, we turn to our
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final witness, Mr. Zaki Shenuda, who had waited at the church all night, but was largely unable to find a good spot to closely see the apparition.
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Around 3:30 a.m. on April 28th, word spread throughout the crowds that our lady had moved to the southwestern dome.
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After rushing to the side of the building, Mr. Shenuda claims that he saw the Virgin Mary manifesting above the dome in the form of queen standing upright with a crown upon her head of her natural size in perfect statue and
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great majesty. It's extremely interesting that these three testimonies line up to the very day and hour to form a cohesive testimony of what the form of the Virgin took on top of St. Mary's Church.
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And again, like it gets even better when we go to the uh it gets even better when we go to the um the table to create a more straightforward outline for what happened on the night or morning. Uh the night/m morning of April
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27th and 28th from 11:00 p.m. to 12:00 a.m. a mysterious light is seen on the church domes per Mr. Nagib. At 1:00 a.m.
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through dawn in the morning, the mysterious light is seen and begins to resemble a young woman. She is given a halo in radiant clothing. She then transforms to resemble a queen with a crown and robes. Her head tilts to the
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side as she spreads out her hands to bless the crowd per Miss Vonvienne. We'll see that testimony in a second.
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Then 3:30 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. The Virgin Mary is seen with a royal appearance, clearly wearing a crown, robes, and a veil. She inclines her decorated head and appears solemn. She concludes by blessing the crowds per Mr. Shenuda.
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Both Miss Vonvian and Mr. Shinuda are quite descriptive in describing the Virgin's final manifestation. They seem to independently recall our lady with a crown on her head and glowing robes that blew in the wind. Her consecrated head then tilted to the side as she looked
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down at the excited crowds. The Virgin would slowly raise her arms in the air and bless all those below her. So here, look at this table. This table was like, "Bro bro." Okay, so we got Vonvianne on the left
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and um Shenuda on the right. Date and time. It was Saturday the 27th. We planned to go out to Zetune and spend the night outside. It was half past 1 in the morning of the 28th when I saw a
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large light. I waited the crowds for long I waited with the crowds for long hours from 5:00 on Saturday evening 27th the 27th. I continued gazing at the Virgin Mary from 3:30 until 5:00 in the morning, the dawn of Sunday, April 28th,
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1968. Location: The Mother of God, was already on the church dome. She was there for a long time.
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Shenuda, the Virgin Mary, had appeared above the southwestern dome. She remained like this for about an hour and a half. So, long time, hour and a half.
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They mess with one another. Vonvian, the apparition's light, I saw a radiant, beautiful, very bright female figure surrounded by radiant light, more beautiful than the moonlight, brighter than the moonlight, but not blinding.
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Mr. For Shinuda, she's shown like the blazing sun in the midst of darkness. Could not be compared to the light of any star in the sky or any lamp on earth. Okay. So like, okay. So like a very radiant bright light associated
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with the figure of the Virgin Mary, the apparition's clothes. So Vanvienne, a crown appeared on her head. The mother of God had a veil that moved slightly in the wind. She has a cloak and a dress all in white, bright white.
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Now, Shenuda, I saw the Virgin Mary in the form of a queen with a crown upon her head, clothed in a veil of luminous fabric. They're both noting a crown, a veil, and that it's like this luminous bright fabric. Independent testimonies,
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same night, same time, same descriptive content, apparitions, head. So, vonvien, she had tilted her head to the right and had a humble sad attitude. Go to Shenuda. Her head was raised beneath the crown of majesty, yet it inclined gently
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with compassion and tenderness. So, one of them was like, "Yeah, she was tilting her head." And the other one was like, "Yeah, she inclined her head, bro." The apparition's hands and arms. So, Miss Vonvian, the radiant queen, slowly
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extended her arms, greeting and blessing. She opened her fingers and rays came down on us. Shenuda, she then slowly extended her arms. So they're both saying she slowly extend. Both of them use those terms slowly extending arms. She then slowly extended her arms
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a little from beneath her flowing robe in a gentle movement forward toward the people greeting and blessing them. So they're both noting these blessings and greetings. Both of them say greeting and blessing, bro. Both of them say greeting. So not just blessing, but
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greeting and blessing. She remained like this for about an hour and a half, visible to the thousands of eyes stretched toward her. Okay. So, exact same date between these testimonies. Exact same location of these testimonies on or above the church
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dome. Both of them describe the radiant light. Both of them describe the clothes talking about the the crown and also the veil and how it was like luminous and very bright.
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And then both of them describe tilting or inclining the head. Then both of them say slowly extending her arms greeting and blessing the crowd. And you know, and you know, Shenuda, you know, Shenuda is like, "Yeah, this was visible to
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hundreds of thousands of eyes for an hour and a half." Example number four, Mother Mary and the Christ child. Like what is often seen in Orthodox Christian iconography, the Virgin of Zetune was often seen cradling an infant in a
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radiant swaddle. In at least one case, this particular detail is corroborated by two witnesses attending the church at the same time of night. On May 6th, 1968, a woman by the name of Matilda Messiah would claim to have seen the
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Holy Mother holding an infant beginning at 3:30 a.m. while accompanied by her sister. They went to Zetune on May 6th, 1968. By good luck, they were able to work their way to the entrance of the church in the
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courtyard. There they joined in the hymn singing and praying until 3:30 in the morning. It was at that hour that our lady appeared in the branches of a tree on the south side of the churchyard with the infant on her left arm. Both were
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bathed in bright light and Mary was wearing a veil over her head. The apparition lasted for 2 hours on that occasion. The swaddling virgin would be corroborated by another witness, Jeanatuma Atala, who reported a very similar site at the same time night as
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Miss Messiah. According to Miss Atala, the virgin was first seen in radian white robes at 3:30 a.m. in the morning on the church's central dome. She gestured in prayer to the excited crowd as a cloud of incense began to form. So,
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another like cloud of incense is beginning to form. Hm. H like just like coordinated with these apparitions.
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These like large billowing clouds of incense are just forming. Hm. She continued to appear at various local around the church in slightly different forms for some time. Slightly after 5:00 a.m. Mary was seen cradling an infant in her arms who over the course of several
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minutes began to grow into a transfigured form of a man. Missala interpreted the second entity as Jesus Christ. An objective vision ended the objective vision ended a few minutes after sunrise.
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The fact that both witnesses mentioned the virgin appearing to cradle the infant Jesus between 3:30 a.m. and 5:30 a.m. on the morning of May 6th, 1968 cannot help but compel. Well, here's the testimony between their testim. So, here's the comparison between their
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testimonies from May 6th, 1968. Matilda Messiah, May 6, 1968, 3:30 in the morning was when our lady appeared. The apparition lasted for 2 hours on that occasion. So, going to approximately 5:30 a.m.
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Atala says, "At exactly 3:30 a.m. Monday, May 6, 1968, I saw the Blessed Virgin Mary appear. At 5:00 a.m., we saw a great heavenly light. 2 minutes later, after 5:00 a.m., we saw the Virgin Mary again. The vision occurred within four
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minutes and 12 minutes had passed since sunrise ending approximately 5:15 a.m. Okay, so look, it's like these independent convergences to about the exact length, right?
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Messia is saying, yeah, it lasted for you 2 hours starting at 3:30. And then Atala says, yes, at exactly 3:30 it started and then it goes until approximately 5:15. So about 2 hours.
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Like okay, interesting. H the apparition's appearance. Messiah says, bathed in white bathed in bright light, Mary was wearing a veil over her head.
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Atala says, "Radiant white robes. I saw her later in the morning clothed in colorful garments wearing a radiant crown and holding the Christ child." So here's Messiah. Our lady appeared with the infant on her left arm. Both were
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bathed in bright light. Atala says, "The Lord Jesus Christ appeared in his entire body as an infant of about 6 months clothed in the same color as her pure garments. I saw her place her hand beneath him and hold him in her arm."
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Example number five, virgin in full form. On the night of April 29th, at the dawn of April 30th, 1968, several witnesses reported reportedly saw the Virgin of Zetune around the church's roof, moving along the structure and turning her body from left to right. She
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was seen blessing the crowds with visible gestures of her hands. Multiple onlookers noticed a luminous cloud from which Mother Mary manifested, which continued to hover above her body until the break of dawn. She apparently loitered around the structure for well
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over 2 hours. In the account from Bishop Athanasius, we learn that the final appearance of the morning lasted from 2:45 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. It is curious that other accounts from the same night line up perfectly with Athanasius's
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description. Our Lady was seen for more than 2 hours and disappeared at 5 in the morning. So here we have Dr. William Risk testimony. Dr. Soil Fared Shaki testimony and then Bishop Athanasius's testimony. Okay. Okay. Let's look at the
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convergences date on the evening of Tuesday, April 29th at dawn on Tuesday, April 30th and then Bishop Athanasius testimony dawn last Tuesday. So, April 29th to 30th, the apparition's description. She appeared in her full radiant body. It was the virgin. I saw
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her. Dr. Risk, she appeared in her full radiant body. Dr. Soie, it was the Virgin. Bishop Athanasius. I saw her in full form. I saw the complete form surrounded by a halo that extended from above her head to around the entire
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body. The predominant color was light blue. The apparition's movement. Dr. Risk moving and turning right and left.
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Bishop Athanasius. She was moving, nodding her head. When she moved, she would become a line of light and then turn her face. The operation blessing the crowds, Dr. Risk gesturing to the crowds and spreading her hands as if
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blessing them. Bishop Athanasius she was bestowing blessings. Luminous cloud Dr. Risk gave no description. Dr. Soie says, "I noticed a cloud in the sky, dazzling white, uniform in shape, distinct from the natural clouds in both color and form. It remained directly above the
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virgin during the entire period of her appearance while the rest of the sky in that area stayed perfectly clear." Bishop Athanasia says, "A cloud-like mist gathered and suddenly became illuminated. I saw the luminous cloud-like form filled with light." So
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they're both saying like there's this like luminous cloud, a very strange anomalous cloud on like above the Virgin Mary. No, take out um above the Virgin Mary because Bishop does Athanasius doesn't say that. And they also agree on
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the timing. So Dr. Risk says her apparitions at that time lasted more than 2 hours. Dr. Soie says the virgin disappeared at 5:00 in the morning. H and then Bishop Bathia says she appeared several times that night. On one
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occasion, she appeared for a long period from 11:30 p.m. until 2 a.m. I saw her at dawn from 2:45 a.m. until 5:00 a.m.
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So that's about 2.25 25 hours. Okay, so we got like more than 2 hours, one of them says. The other one says it lasted 2.25 hours. And then the other one says it disappeared at 5:00 in the morning exactly when Bishop Athanasia
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says it disappeared. So they're like interlocking and making mutual sense of one another in these like very striking ways.
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Example number six, Our Lady of the Palms. Shafi Miky, a deacon of St. Mary's told researchers of two separate sightings of the Virgin that he had on April 19th and May 2nd, 1968. Mr.
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Macau's general description of the apparition's appearance and location line up with a separate pilgrim Camil Atai Soulean. Mr. Sleman's sighting likely occurred in April or early May prior to when most of the nearby trees were torn down to make room for the
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growing crowds. His account seems to agree with our prior witness as both saw the virgin hovering between two large palm trees near the church and the mother of God was described as Ed abnormally large in size. So here on the
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left we've got Shafi and here on the right we've got Camil. So the location apparition.
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So the location of the apparition in the courtyard at the west end of the church the entrance are two tall trees. She appeared in the space between these trees. Camil says it was filling it as in you know the apparition was filling
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the space between the two tall massive trees whose branches intertwined and parted at this gap. Hm. It's the exact same location. The apparition levitating. So Shafi Shafi says she was in midair high in the air. Camel says she was among the branches of the trees.
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Right. So like up levitating up there in the air between trees. Dude, what what conspiracy are you going to tell to explain this away? Okay. Um, so the apparition appearance. Let's go to the Shafi. The form of the virgin
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full of glory as if all a flame. Camil says a luminous vision of a lady.
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Magnificent grandeur, majesty, splendor, beauty. So they're both saying like, yeah, like glorious, beautiful, and it's like the form of the virgin or the vision like a luminous lady. They're both describing it as distinctively female-shaped. Apparition height. Shafi says the figure was twice natural size.
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Camel says a tall imposing lady. So again, they're just like mutually interlocking and corroborating one another in like pretty striking ways. In surveying the various artistic depictions from witnesses, one notices that the description by Mr. Macau and Soule resembles a later drawing by Badir
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Ruscala Kousi. A witness himself, Mr. Kousy, drew the apparition as large in size, towering over the church as it floated above the air. The drawing also positions the figure as floating in between two palm trees that surround the
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church's entrance. And here, you know, you can see his drawing here. Here's a virgin here. Here's the palm tree number one. Here's palm tree number two.
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It's like hm like very interesting striking convergences between like totally independent testimonies. Example number eight. Okay, so let's go through the eighth example of a striking independent convergence or an undesigned coincidence. The Gubran family who were locals privileged with living in
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proximity to the church building claimed to have visited the site nearly every night and saw our lady well over 200 times. On two of these occasions, the Gubans mentioned that Mother Mary was accompanied by her husband Joseph in
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full form along with a Christ child swaddled in their embrace. all seem to be riding or walking next to a donkey as they encircled the church group twice before vanishing. In the words of Mrs.
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Gubon, we saw them exactly as they were depicted in images of their stay in Egypt. The Gub Bronz's account is unfortunately too sparse to recover much more detail. Nevertheless, at least two other testimonies have been found in the
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immense literature on Zetune that seemed to describe the same episode. One originates from a former Muslim man interviewed by Ray Stanford who was so moved by the site that he would later convert to Christianity. Another witness would submit her own testimony from 1968
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to be published by the Coptic Church. By comparing both accounts, it is highly likely that each witness was recalling the general episode narrated by the Goobronss. All three members of the Holy Family encircled the church's roof while accompanied by what looked like a
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donkey. The father of Christ was leading the group and walking closely in front of the donkey. Okay, dude, we got to read this. So, here are the the three independent testimonies set side by side. We got the Gubon family on the
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left. We got the anonymous male Muslim witness in the middle. And we've got the the female Muslim witness on the right.
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First category, cloud of light above the church. Gubran family, no description. Male Muslim witness. He and his friends watched an apparition of the entire holy family that seemed to be floating in its own light in the air above the church.
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Female Muslim witness. The mother of light appeared again from a shining cloud descending from the sky onto the roof of the church. From it appeared the scene of the holy family. Identity of the figures. Guban family says the
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entire holy family with Joseph holding a staff. Male Muslim figure. We were looking at we were looking up there at St. Mary Jesus as a boy and St. Joseph.
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Female Muslim witness the mother of light carrying the Lord of glory Jesus with Joseph.
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Gubran family. on the appearances of the figures. We saw them exactly as they were shown in pictures of their stay in Egypt. Muslim witness, the Holy Family was very distinct, very clear. The Holy Family seemed to be floating in its own
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light. They were so very beautiful, so lovely. Female witness, the sight was luminous and beautiful. Gubron family, presence of a donkey. Holy Family was riding on a donkey. I noticed to one side of St. Joseph a hazy, indistinct
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area vaguely glowing while a vaporous something. What is what is funny is that I amused myself by thinking that the thing following St. Joseph was a donkey.
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It seemed to follow the three of them around. Female witness, the mother of light was riding on the back of a donkey with Joseph the carpenter leading the donkey. The Gubron family says the group reportedly circled the church twice
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before disappearing. The male Muslim witness says the Zetune figures moved serenely around the church roof.
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Female Muslim witness the Holy Family walked along the roof of the church for a very very long time. So this is like an extensive this is like an extensive visual.
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So they're they're just like describing these things in pretty striking convergent detail. Three independent witnesses are describing this in like pretty striking convergent detail.
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And again, these are just a few of the example. And again, like as Caleb Jackson says, these are just a few of the examples. We have a we have a witness questionnaire. We have a witness questionnaire that Dr. John Jackson, a
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physicist, put together. He's pretty comprehensive data for his witness survey. In his own analysis, John Jackson expresses confidence that the major themes across all his testimonies paint a clear picture. So, this is kind of like pretty mutually corroborating
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and significant convergence that we see. All the witnesses to the Zetune event virtually agreed amongst themselves as to what they saw and I think it's possible to construct what I would call standard account of what had occurred.
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The apparition was firstly self luminous. Secondly, most of the people would say they could see some bodily features. Thirdly, virtually everybody said the apparition would move in a natural manner. And fourth, it looked very realistic. Some people would say
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the apparition was bigger than life in terms of its size. What's interesting about it is that you had so many people who come from so many different parts of the world really coming together to agree that this is what people generally
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saw. And like he's asking, did the apparition seem lifelike or artificial? 98.8% said lifelike. Did the others see the event? Yes. 97.7% said that. Did the local surroundings emit light? Only 2.6% said yes. 97.4% said no. But 75% said threedimensional.
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97.4% said that it was opaque. So the apparition was opaque rather than transparent. And 82% said when they when they visited Zune, the apparition moved. In his 2017 doctoral dissertation from the University of Essex, VC Muso would compile 22 published eyewitness
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testimonies from 1968, the first year of the phenomenon. And his main takeaways are largely consistent with Jackson's early analysis. Vast majority reference the operations as luminous, explicitly identify the being with some formal title of the Virgin Mary. Roughly half
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mentioned seeing the operation associated with other religious imagery while surrounded by luminous birds. So 45% of his testimonies mentioned these luminous birds. We've testimony to kneeling walking rising blessing smiling. The movement of our lady's clothing was not only reserved to her
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gate. Several accounts highlight that the apparition's robes would visibly sway, sometimes from the wind and sometimes from the wind and other times due to her motion across the roof. Our testimonies of this are abundant. Here are just a bunch of these testimonies.
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Her garments swayed in the wind. The hem of her robe flutters as if in motion. As she moved, the veil could be seen blowing a bit in the light wind. The mother of God had a veil that moved
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slightly in the wind. The robe, or rather the whole image seemed to move by the air, swaying gently as though stirred by a soft breeze. Her clothing moved in the breeze. A soft breeze seemed to be blowing as her veil was
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waving ever so gently. It's clear from the accounts that the virgin was no stranger to using her hand to communicate with the excited believers surrounding the church. She was blessing the So here here are like other so here
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are like other testimonies. She was blessing the people by her hand and like and like this. So the person gestures with their hand. Her hands moved like that. Rafael Bernard Wyama. She raised her hands in front of her. It was a
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waving motion. Palms up from the tips of her fingers. Light was flowing down to the ground where I was standing.
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Wadita Marcos Antonios. Wadita Marco Antonius. Her hands were like this. Hold hands out with palms outward. and she indicated the posture familiar to us of as our lady of grace, hands extended, palms up as she stood above the smaller
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dome. We have eyewitness sketchings. Our Lady was also observed at times to genulect when passing near any of the church's fivemounted crosses. This was especially common with the cross on the church's large central dome with the silhouette of Mary was mounted in
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reverence as her veil head as her veiled head remained tilted down as she bowed.
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She seemed almost to defy gravity at points given the slope's smooth shape. So here are just like a bunch of testimonies to this. You know that the dome at Zjun is sloping. She was standing on that slope. She did not
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fall. She was in front of the cross became wider and wider developing the shape of the beloved virgin mother kneeling in front of the cross on top of the central dome. We could see the blessed virgin Mary moving on the domes
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now bowing before the cross. She began to go to the church's northern side and on her way she knelt in front of the western cross. She was seen moving and walking above the domes bowing before the upper cross on the central dome
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which was then which would then shine with brilliant light. A large dark cross was placed on her chest. She bowed her pure head over it and cradled it in her hands in a gesture of prayer for us. I
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saw the appearance of the mother of light in her natural size. on top of the large dome. She walked all the way to the cross and she prostrated before the cross. Caleb goes through all Caleb goes through different testimonies for like
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non-verbal communications with like the head and nodding and bowing and things like that. There are abundant testimonies to threedimensionality which makes it apparent to most that our lady was not merely a flat projection from a spotlight. Hence why she was most often
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described as statue-like. There she was the phosphorous statue but not so stiff as a statue. She was like a statue hands folded in front, head veiled and bent.
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The blessed virgin appeared in a complete luminous body as a radiant phosphorescent statue. She was standing majestically in an upright and graceful posture filling one of the arches of the western nave of the dome. She was she was of a small harmonious size like a
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statue of radiant pure light extending completely from head to toe in all the arches of the dome. I could see in faint outline the erect white statue-like figure. I had a side view of her as one sees a white statue in profile with
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hands held in prayer. Samir has seen the virgin. I seen her too. She was like a statue. The first time I saw the holy virgin as a nun, a half statue form. She was wearing a white robe. The second
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time I saw the full statue between the domes. In some case in some cases the apparition was actually first mistaken as a statue placed on top of the dome until it began moving. This this solidity was further evidenced by the
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fact that lights would occasionally be shined on our lady unlike a projection where the image becomes hazier when exposed to outside light. Mother Mary became more well- definined when put under the spotlight. Additional additional accounts imply that the
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entity was able to interact with physical objects when touching them. Brokad first saw the apparition as an 11-year-old child in the early months of 1968, claiming that the virgin began appearing on top of a large palm tree in
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front of the eastern side of the church building. This began at around 12:30 in the morning, continued intermittently until 6:30 a.m. with the Holy Mother appearing at the at the spot every few minutes. But it was observed that the
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branches of the palm trees would part when the apparition appeared on top of them as if she was an object with weight that pressed down on the trees offshoots. We noticed the palm branches, the two middle branches at the top
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moving apart, and the Virgin Mary appeared with a luminous spectrum. Every 3 or 4 minutes, the two branches of the palm tree above would separate, and she, in her full height, would stand and look at the people. The consensus of the
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survey participants was that the light appeared to be lielike rather than artificial. Even some were initially skeptical, reported becoming convinced after they had seen the operation for themselves. Here are some testim here are some testimonies of that. My husband
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was at my side. At first, he did not believe. He said, "They are artificial lights." Then when I saw it, I asked him, "Can anything make that with artificial lights?" Then he said, "No, it's not anything artificial." Another
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one. I said, "But really, where is this apparition?" Then all of a sudden, between two domes of the church, I saw it. Then I regained my composure. I got a good look because I remember what some said that it was a projection, that it
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was a photo, that it was like this, that it was like that, but it was no such thing. At first, she appeared as a light without any definite form. We had doubted that the virgin could appear above the tree, thinking it only a
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reflection or an optical illusion. Then we saw that it had taken the shape of a woman wearing a white veil in a white robe. The vision was perfectly clear.
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This time we truly saw a human figure sitting upon the palm tree. As the sky began to brighten with the approaching sunrise, the image grew the image grew clearer. Two men went to two men went together to not really expect to see
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anything. They went only because they had heard others speaking of the marvel. Three different times they were able to see St. Mary. It was no shadow or reflection, no artifact. It was the virgin. She was glorious. She was not
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stationary. She moved and the people shouted. In several cases, witnesses who are particularly close in proximity to the apparition were able to make out humanlike features in the face and clothing. For example, Ishak Aziz Hana would claim that April 16th, 1968, he
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was close enough to a lady that the face and the hair were clearly defined.
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Bishop Gagoras notes that his third time seeing her on May 14th, 1968, was aided with a magnifying instrument that he had borrowed from a man standing behind him in the crowd. Through the magnifying instrument, the bishop observed her for
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roughly 15 minutes, holding what appeared to be the Christ child. Jackson's questionnaire found that among 48 respondents roughly half of the respondents saw the apparition from a distance of 80 ft away or less. Of these six reported they were within within 20
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ft of the apparition. This is significant as human accuracy towards facial feature recognition is fairly precise until about the 20 yard mark. So 60 ft for for these witnesses the features of our lady appeared extremely realistic. So here are some like
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detailed descriptions and the distance of witnesses. So Dr. Kyrie Malik he was 13 yards or 40 feet below the apparition. Duration at least 2.5 hours on and off. description veil. She looked very human. Her features were clear and
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unforgettable. I believe they saw her teeth as she smiled. Professor Sophie Gerggas approximately 50 to 70 ft away at least at least 30 ft below the figure. Duration about 40 to 45 minutes continuously. Description: Full image of the Virgin Mary was visible. The Christ
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child could be seen as well, carried in the crook of her left arm. She was smiling and had a very youthful looking face. Her head was covered with a very thin bluish colored veil. As she moved, the veil could be seen blowing a bit in
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a light wind. Bishop Marcos approximately 130 to 165 ft away. I saw her complete, very nice and very clear.
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I saw I saw the complete face, complete body, and her hands waving to bless the people. Bishop Athanasius roughly 60 ft away about saw for about 1 hour. There was something about the eyes and mouth I could see, but I could not make out the
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features in detail. Here are some witnesses in extremely close proximity to the church gathering in front of the fence.
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Even for those who are further back, many recall that they could distinguish the apparition's skin from its clothing due to the difference in pigmentation.
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It seemed to us that the fleshy parts of the body were transparent, appearing in the color of the hidden sky behind the images, so that they looked dark. The face appeared dark in the midst of the light radiating from the veil in the
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robe. Around her face is a halo of pale yellow, and below her neck and upper chest, the color is somewhat darker. I could distinguish only a difference in color between the skin of the face and the hands in the veil. There was there
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was some color in the face and the hands. We have a we have a painting of someone as they recalled seeing her, which you know just like again just happens to correspond with like what all the other witnesses are saying.
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The apparitions were interubjective. The apparition took on different forms at different points. Sometimes a half figure, sometimes there was a halo of light. Most most often seemingly was a luminescent silhouette. We also have at least putative photos of the phenomena.
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Maybe I'll say a little bit more about the photos later, but this one is the most this is among the most eminent of the Zetune photos. The photo below appears to capture the silhouette of the apparition perched alongside the sloped
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roof of St. Mary's Church. In accordance with some witness testimony from this period, one can make out the faint outlines of a body head adorned with a halo and a pointed edge on the apparition's left side, the hands,
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right? So like kind of this is the body here kind of kind of tilting her head.
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Here's the halo. Here are the hands. The genesis of this image comes from a 1969 pamphlet published by the Coptic People Commission issued with the approval of Bishop Abbott Gorggorius. The photographer the photographer was an engineer from Helopoulos by the name of
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Fuzzy Manzour who reportedly had snapped the image during one of the earliest instances on April 9th, 1968. So here's so so again like named individual exact date that the testimony exact date that the photograph was allegedly taken and
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he's going to show up later in the healings section. So that'll be fun. We were fortunate enough to have some description from witnesses who were in attendance the same night this image was purportedly captured on the night of
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April 9th at 10 p.m. All doubt vanished. I saw her in full form at top the main dome leaning downward with eyes full of compassion just as just as she appears in her familiar image holding the Christ child.
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So like okay we have an eyewitness testimony the same night that this photo was purportedly taken and it describes leaning downwards. You can literally see like leaning downward and full form. Mansour's photograph bears striking resemblance to other witness depictions as well as drawings
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of what people saw. Only slightly less famous than Mansour's photo is the following set of alleged photos showing the person's silhouette form becoming more defined. The images were produced on an undefined date in 1968 by a named individual Ali Ibrahim, director of the
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Cairo Museum. The first photo shows a vertical form of light that appears vaguely anthropomorphic with a shape of a head and body. The arms are not clearly defined and the legs are replaced with a ghostly tail. The second
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image was taken only a few moments later as the operation's human shape became more pronounced. The head became the head becomes more defined as the halo takes form. The operation's tail is less apparent. Her image becomes much brighter and begins to oversaturate the
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surrounding dome that she's placed in front of, and you can see a bird-like figure hovering above the halo as a stream of incense emanates around the upper body. Recalled in a previous section on converging testimonies, witnesses often observed the light
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beginning like with a vertical radiance before widening and gaining more anthropomorphic features. Witnesses described a light with a luminous halo that slowly became more distinct until the figure of Mary became evident. And Ibrahim's photographs may very well capture this metamorphosis. To Caleb
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Jackson's knowledge, the only sophisticated photo analysis conducted on a sample of the Zetune photos was Dr.
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John Jackson in 1996. Jackson, a physicist most wellknown for imaging work on the shot of turn detailed his methods in his contributing chapter to the anthology later of light appear appears in Egypt. The book appears to be out of print and is next to impossible
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to find nevertheless from what can be derived from interviews with Jackson and citations of his work. The analysis involved three of the most widely reproduced images of the Virgin, those of Fazy Mansour.
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Speaker A
Right. So here's Fazy Mansour's famous photograph. Dr. John Jackson also analyzed Ali Ibrahim's famous photograph here and Wagi Risk. See below for discussions on each. Jackson suspected that Risk's images of luminous doves may show some signs of tampering, but signed
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off on the authenticity of the former two images. In his own summary, we interviewed over 100 witnesses, and many, if not most of these witnesses, we do not believe even know each other.
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Yet, they gave very similar account what they saw. They look as though they were recording an actual event. Blah blah blah. And the photographic records correlate very nicely with what the eyewitnesses claimed that they had seen.
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The question is, are those real photographs? What you look for in a scientific evaluation of these photographs? Oh, and I should mention Dr. John Jackson is an optic expert. Um, what you look for in a scientific evaluation of these photographs is
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internal consistencies or inconsistencies. I I spent quite a bit of time studying those. Mansours and Ibrahim's photographs and I can't see any inconsistencies. So, if that's true, then that would mean the apparition was able to generate physical light that was
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able to go through a camera, go through the objects, record itself on the photographic emulsion of the film as a photochemical reaction and hence we have some hence we have something physical associated with the apparition. So, so like Dr. Dumay, I think we should be,
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you know, tentative and cautious about the photographs. But like you know firstly the photographs are given by named individuals on at least one occasion with like an exact date attached. These individuals are like well positioned in society like a
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director of the Cairo Museum. So he seems to have like a lot to lose if it's found out to be fabricated. They just oh and like the photographs just like happen to corroborate basically everything that like thousands of
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witnesses are testifying to and they're looking exactly like drawings that other people are producing of like what they were seeing.
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And moreover, a physicist and optic expert analyzed them and found no signs of doctoring or tampering. So, okay, there is like at least some probative evidence that these are real photographs. Again, we can't be certain.
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We should have some like higher order uncertainty about this, but like there is evident. There is there is some physical corroboration here. So, regarding miraculous healings, there were various case studies published by the papal commission. I'll go through
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Speaker A
one case after playing a little clip from Travis Dum's Day. And so yeah, that's definitely a case worth um worth highlighting just to give the audience one or two other just quick examples.
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And I'm drawing these from so this is from the um medical commission set up by the Coptic patriarchy. It was headed by Dr. Shafi Abdal Malik who was a professor of medicine at the University of Cairo and the personal physician to
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the Coptic Orthodox Pope Curillos V 6. So here's an excerpt from the the medical commission report. This is cited in Pearl Zaki's uh 2002 book. So I'll just read this out. It's like a short paragraph. quote uh Inshar Amin Al- Nal, wife of Makmoud
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Shukuri Ibraim, director of the roads and bridges department, both Muslims living at 13 Abdel Raman uh El Baruri Street, uh Manuel Elroa in Cairo, had been suffering from a serious paralysis of the left leg and could walk only with
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by the help of a stick. She went to the church in her car on April the 29th, accompanied by her husband. Both prayed, but nothing happened that night. The following night she went again, accompanied by her son, and again
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watched for the appearance of the virgin praying fervently. After some time, she saw a cloud on the dome at the northeast, which gradually took the form of the virgin and began to circulate around the dome.
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In cried, "Oh, mother of light, help me." Her son Akmed was so affected by the apparition that he fell from his chair. At dawn, the lady got up, carried her chair, and walked steadily on her two feet without using her stick or
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leaning on her son. She went to her car rejoicing in the Lord. Dr. Abbas Azad, Dr. Ali Labib, and Dr. Muhammad Sed, who had examined her earlier and found her paralysis iriable, were amazed at her miraculous cure." unquote. Another
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example Zaki cites is actually the cure of a medical doctor which is interesting. Um so uh here's another quote. Uh Dr. William Nashadzaki, ex- director of Msara Unit for medical treatment whose clinic is at 41 Shoura Street in Cairo had been suffering
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greatly for 13 years from a hernia for which he had been forced to wear a medical belt. He says in his report that he despared of a medical cure. On the night of May the 30th, he went to the
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church in Ziton. He says, "Just before dawn, I saw the blessed virgin. She was moving towards the cross. Then she stretched out her hand and blessed us. I prayed for a miraculous cure through her through her intercession. When I reached
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home, no pain of any sort was bothering me. The hernia had been completely cured." Uh there's one more sort of example I I'd like to give. This is not from the official medical report from the produced by the Coptic patriarchy.
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Instead, this is from an article by Dr. Cynthia Nelson. She was a professor of anthropology at the American University in Cairo who developed an interest in the apparitions as they were occurring.
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So, she interviewed a number of eyewitnesses. She talked to a number of people. One of the people she talked to was um a surgeon in Cairo. And here's what um I'll just read a short excerpt from Dr. Nelson's uh article uh from
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1973. Uh so here's what she says. Uh one prominent Cairo surgeon expressed this existential dilemma in the following narrative. Okay, so now she's quoting from this Cairo surgeon that she interviewed.
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quote, "A patient of mine upon whom I had operated two years ago for cancer returned to my office three weeks ago for a checkup. Uh, upon examination, I discovered that the man had another tumor. I actually felt at the tumor
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during the internal examination and removed a piece of tissue for biopsy. When the test showed it was malignant, I recommended an immediate operation, but the man refused, saying he did not have enough money, and left the office. Two
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weeks later, he returned and asked for another examination. To my astonishment, I could not find the tumor, but only some white scar tissue. The man told me he had gone to Zaiton and prayed to the virgin for help. I do not believe in
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such miracles, but I cannot explain the disappearance of the tumor, and it's driving me mad.
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So, that was this uh surgeon that Nelson had interviewed as the the apparitions were occurring. So that just gives you your audience some flavor of the kinds of um miracle healing reports that emerged from uh from these events,
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right? And the commission like they have various like medical documentation that they required and they collected that.
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They collected eyewitness statements and various other things. I I've actually looked into some of these. They're actually pretty interesting. Um I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is this is kind of cool." And like this is part of the
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data that any systematic explanation of the phenomena surrounding Zyon would need to explain. So I think that's it's important to lay that on the table.
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One of Caleb's sections is on restoration of severed muscles and nerves. Of the people commission's testified cures from its initial inquiry, the case of Wagi Risk Mata remains among the most compelling from medical perspective. The Egyptian photographer had suffered from an
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extremely debilitating injury in June 1967 following a car accident. In his own grizzly description, nothing was tying my forearm to my arm except for a torn flap of skin through which only two vessels were appearing intact. The rest
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of the vessels were cut and bleeding on the ground. He was immediately hospitalized and the arm was operated on the following morning June 28th. An X-ray indicated no substantial results from the surgical intervention and so a second oper operation was then undergone
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the same day. The arm would then be immobilized in a plaster cast for 3 months. All attempts at medical repair were to no avail. By September Wagi was released from the hospital, being told that there was nothing further that
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could be done to heal the limb. The accident had resulted in total evulsion of the upper arm, tearing most of the major tendons, biceps and brachialis completely off the bone. His left arm and hand hung lifelessly and were
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functionally useless. Most of his upper limb movements were anchored by a shoulder joint. For all practical purposes, he had no finger dexterity, lacked the ability to bend his left elbow, and could not even raise his limp appendage to his face. A follow-up
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examination in February 1968 was so dismal that his physician, Dr. Hassan Sara, noted the destruction of tissues and nerves, compound bone fractures, and widespread paralysis of the left limb. A second opinion was consulted by a specialist. The orthopedic surgeon, Dr.
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Abdel Hayel Sharkawi. Following another X-ray, the surgeon concurred with the prior assessments that the arm was irreparable and would almost certainly be permanently inert unless future surgical techniques were developed. The the arm was so dysfunctional the amputation had been offered to improve
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his quality of life to which Wuggy declined. All of this would change on the night of April 13th when the photographer was bathed in the heavenly light rating from the apparition as he attempted to capture on film. I went to
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the Virgin Mary's Church as a tune and took my camera with me. I forgot while I was looking at the apparition of the blessed virgin. The fact that when I captured the first photo quickly, I used my left hand. Yes, my left hand. The
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hand five doctors, some of them among the most famous surgeons in Egypt said was hopeless and will never move again.
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The blessed version has miraculously healed this hand. I started to move my left hand up and down to my side and to rotate and wave it in in the air while extended. I was cured, completely cured once the version appeared. And from this
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day, the camera never leaves me. The camera and I never leaves a tune. Mr.
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Risk's photo taken at the time of the of the alleged cure is discussed below. In in April 1969, the commission issued a positive finding and declared that Wagi Risk Mata had been instantly inexplicably healed. Both the papal report findings and the medical report
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from the patient's primary physician are reproduced below. Here's the primary physician report. Mr. Wagi Risk Mata, 42 years of age, photographer. patient had been involved in a motor car accident on 27th June 1967. His elbow joint was seriously damaged. There was complete
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avulsion of both the biceps and brachialis muscles from their insertions. He remained under treatment but was not cured. Treated by several doctors as the crippled man attempted to photograph the operations. He was instantly cured. The range of motion,
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the range of movements of the arm was limited at the elbow joint with very slight flexion. All the arm movements were controlled from the shoulder joint.
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On examining Mr. Wagi Mata today, I found him to be in good health and able to move his elbow joint in full flexion and extension. I cannot find any medical explanation for the full range of movements of the injured arm.
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signed Dr. Zarif Bishara. A little bit more about the photo photographs. I mean, again, we should be tentative about them, but it's it's striking that we have photographs that align exactly with abundant eyewitness testimony which are reported by named individuals,
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Speaker A
sometimes with a professional reputation and credibility to lose. Uh that a professional physicist with expertise in optics, carefully studied and noted no signs of tampering or doctrine. Now, some skeptics might object like, oh well, why was there such a posity though
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Speaker A
of photographic and videographic evidence? Well, first, there's no chance that this was a private psychoggenic phenomenon. I'll touch on that later, but it should be obvious by now. So the only viable naturalistic hypotheses also posit objective coralates for the events
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Speaker A
for hours on end. But then naturalistic hypothesis also make the posity of images and videos very surprising.
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Right? So this is not an advantage of naturalistic hypothesis over the miracle hypothesis. Second, I don't think the lack of additional photos would make for a particularly compelling objection to the miracle hypothesis or particularly convincing piece of evidence for a
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naturalistic hypothesis. Like it would be nice if we had more evidence for the miracle hypothesis. you know, even more photos, even more eyewitness testimony, even more tumors and paralysis being healed, you know, but we're limited to the evidence that we do have, and what
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we do have is more than enough to license the miraculous conclusion. Third, we have seemingly honest reports from named individuals like Ali Ibrahim and Fuzzy Mansour, that they took photos. We have a physicist who examined the photos from the event and found no
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evidence of doctrine, of several, including those of Ibrahim and Mansour. He did discover signs of tampering for other photos from the other individuals, you know, so it's not like Dr. John Jackson is this, you know, gullible freak. He's an optic expert. The photos
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happen to corroborate what hords of eyewitnesses said they saw. Both concerning the female-shaped figure of the apparition and the surrounding phenomena like anomalous clouds, dove-like bright white beings, etc.
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Speaker A
That's reasonably strong mutually reinforcing evidence for the veracity of the photos and the testimony. It's like mutually reinforcing. Fourth, Dr. Dunday reports that there are testimonies to the effect that attempted photographs of the apparition came out blank. If those
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reports are true that actually supports Zetun's authenticity, every viable naturalistic explanation predicts that either nearly all or none of the photographs taken would capture the apparition. After all, cameras don't hallucinate, and any ordinary physical phenomenon visible to one camera should
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be visible to all cameras. Only an objective supernatural phenomenon would appear in some photographs, but fail to appear in others. Fifth, there are non-silly reasons God might have to bring it about that we don't have more photos or videos. If God's motus
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Speaker A
operandi regarding divine hiddenness and miracles is to provide enough evidence to support belief, but leave enough room for the psychological possibility of doubt, hordes of mutually reinforcing non-doced and testimony matching photos or videos may very well exceed the
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limits of hiddenness, at least for lots of people operative in this non-silly divine policy. And this fits in with the, you know, the hiddenness model of divine activity that I'll cover when discussing demonic phenomena below. You know, as with many other miracle
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reports, there are often times relatively peripheral aspects of the situation which should not carry the day, but which when latched on to and blown out of proportion by skeptics preserve the psychological possibility of doubt. Like, oh, why don't we have
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Speaker A
that on video? You know, like even though we have like thousands of mutually corroborating direct eyewitness accounts immediately after the events, plus medically documented apparently miraculous healings, plus a small number of photos exactly corroborating what the eyewitnesses say. plus you know like a
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Speaker A
phys optical expert like examined that at least two of those photos and said like no I see no signs of doctring or tampering etc. I wanted to add another point that my editor brought up to me and I was like oh yeah okay this
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Speaker A
deserves a mention. So like there is like a mundane factor that we have to keep in mind when we ask like why is there at least a posity of photographic evidence, right? Why aren't there like hundreds or thousands of photographs of
405:59
Speaker A
Zetun? Um and you know this is arguably at least part of the answer. I mean you know I need to appeal to the other things that I mentioned in the video to fully answer it. But part of the answer
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Speaker A
is going to be the economic and technological context, right? I mean Egypt was a poor country in 1968. uh its nominal GDP per capita was only about 180 bucks a year. Now, that's not the average salary, but you know, at least
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Speaker A
my preliminary basic research suggests that surviving wage data indicates relatively low incomes. Um especially among you know, agricultural and lower income workers and photographic equipment could be extremely expensive relative to those incomes. Like sure, snapshot cameras could be purchased in
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the west for under $20 at the time, but like a good consumer 35 millimeter camera could cost like 150 bucks to $250 at the time. Um, and that, you know, that's comparable to or even greater than Egypt's annual GDP per capita. Um,
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Speaker A
and inexpensive cameras, by the way, in that period were pretty poorly suited to photographing like a luminous moving object at night from a considerable distance, right? like a cheap a cheap Kodak in stimatic for example um had a
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Speaker A
fixed small aperture lens and limited shutter settings. Uh, and you know, an ordinary flash would clearly do nothing to illuminate something on top of a church, right? Um, now again, like this doesn't mean that no one at the time, no
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Speaker A
one at the time possessed cameras. That that's not what I'm saying. Um, Cairo did contain professional photographers and, you know, upper class Egyptians and whatnot. And, you know, there were tourists and whatnot. But, you know, this is sort of reflected at least to
407:32
Speaker A
some extent in in the evidence that we do have. You know there are multiple photographs attributed to several different photographers including you know professional photographer Wagi Risk Mata you know the agricultural engineer Fuzzy Mansour Ali Ibrahim a German
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Speaker A
photographer others so like when we're asking the question of why there was such a posity of photographic evidence concerning Zetune cuz there isn't no photographic evidence um when you know at the time there were just enormous crowds uh the relative rarity and
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expense of cameras like together with like the pretty significant technical technical difficulties of like nighttime photography in the late 1960s does provide at least a significant part of the answer, right? So, we shouldn't we shouldn't lose that. Okay, so I've
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laid out the data. Let's turn to potential skeptical explanations of Zetune. So, I mean, you might go in for some kind of private psychoggenic explanation. I mean, that contradicts like, you know, thousands of testimonies to a visible public manifestation of
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Speaker A
luminous female figure where ample testimonies report people around them seeing the same thing. I mean, again, like go back to the John Jackson survey.
408:32
Speaker A
It doesn't explain convergent testimonies to billowing clouds of massive incense or the doves. It doesn't explain the insane coincidences between independent testimonial reports about striking details concerning the apparition. I mean, come on, dude. The exact date, time, location, color,
408:45
Speaker A
intentional movements, etc. among independent witnesses on lots of occasions. Snap out of it, my friend.
408:50
Speaker A
Private psychoggenic explanations don't explain the healings. You're just going to have to posit like, I don't know, unprecedented coincidences for some of those. And then coincidence upon coincidence upon coincidence, one after another concentrated here. The private psychoggenic explanation fails to
409:02
Speaker A
explain at least evidentially indicative pictures and just all around this is an embarrassing explanation. What about tectonic strain theory? Well, let's hear from Dr. Dums Day. We're starting with tectonic strain theory.
409:14
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. So, very briefly. So, tectonic strain theory is a theory developed by the late Canadian neuroscientist Michael Persinger.
409:23
Speaker A
uh and Persinger originally developed this theory in the 1970s as an explanation for the UFO phenomenon. So there are two components to tectonic strain theory. There's a geological component and there's a neuroscientific component. So the geological component basically runs as follows. So in geology
409:44
Speaker A
there's this phenomenon known as earthquake lights. So basically during a severe earthquake um an earthquake can for complex geological reasons prompt uh brief sparks of light in the sky produced by the tectonic forces. Right?
410:00
Speaker A
So there are weird lights that can occur briefly during the acute stage of an earthquake. They're they're known as earthquake lights.
410:08
Speaker A
Kersinger took that and hypothesized that you know what if much lower levels of tectonic activity right so so levels of tectonic strain like well below that of an earthquake but still like higher than usual tectonic strain he hypothesized that that too could give
410:28
Speaker A
rise to anomalous lights in the atmosphere right in other words lower levels of tectonic strain could give rise to these anomalous blobs of light that are objectively real, right? That they actually exist a as real uh light phenomena in the atmosphere, but they're
410:44
Speaker A
being produced solely by these geological forces. U so that's the geological component of the theory, right? And uh Persinger thought that uh so he argued this accounts for a lot of UFO sightings and in fact he tried to argue for this by um
410:59
Speaker A
looking at supposed UFO flaps, right, where a given region is experiencing an unusually high level of UFO sightings.
411:06
Speaker A
He tried to correlate UFO flaps with tectonic strain, right? So he would look at geological data tables and try to correlate them with um these periods of of higher than usual um flying saucer sightings. Uh that's the geological
411:22
Speaker A
component of the theory. Now this the neuroscientific side of the theory basically what Pinger suggests is that this same uh so what happens so so the geological activity prompts um changes in the ambient electromagnetic environment that's what gives rise to
411:40
Speaker A
these anomalous blobs of light that are objectively real um okay going back to his original work on the UFO phenomenon Pinger recognizes okay the geological component of the theory explains what's known as close encounters of the first kind, right? Where people are just
411:57
Speaker A
seeing weird lights in the sky. What about close encounters of a third kind where people claim to see these weird lights in the sky that land and strange beings get out, right? Uh Persinger suggests well it's unlikely that all those people are
412:14
Speaker A
lying or crazy. So, what's going on here? And what he suggests is now the second component of his tectonic strain theory which is there is a subset of the population whose brains are particularly susceptible to shifts in ambient
412:29
Speaker A
electromagnetic activity. Right? So shifts in the wavelengths of electromagnetic activity in the environment. So when you get dramatic shifts in that electromagnetic ambient activity due to these geological um phenomena, there's going to be a subset of the population that um is probably going to
412:48
Speaker A
see these weird lights in the sky that are objectively real. But then uh as a result of their brains uh encountering this the shifts in ambient electromagnetic activity, some of these people are going to start having much more dramatic hallucinations
413:05
Speaker A
where given their cultural background um what they will hallucinate is a flying saucer landing and weird beings come out, right? Because that's just the cultural culture we live in right now, right? Maybe hundreds of years ago they would have seen a religious figure and
413:19
Speaker A
now they're going to hallucinate uh alien beings. But it's only a subset of the population, right, that that that has what Percinger referred to as temporal lobe liability, right? Where it's a particular susceptibility of of people's brains to again these shifts in ambient
413:36
Speaker A
electromagnetic activity that prompt these private hallucinations. Okay, so that's PCinger's overarching explanation for various components of the UFO phenomenon.
413:47
Speaker A
Out of that, he developed a kind of generic all-purpose theory for paranormal and religious experiences, both private and group experiences.
413:57
Speaker A
So in 1989, Persinger and a colleague named John Dar wrote a paper on Zyun that they published in, you know, a respected psychology journal called Perceptual and Motor Skills where in that 1989 paper, they applied tectonic strain theory to the Zetune apparitions.
414:16
Speaker A
And what they argued was at the time uh Egypt was going through unusually high levels of tectonic strain. And so what's going on is that there are there were real objective anomalous lights that people were actually seeing inside that
414:32
Speaker A
were being produced by these geological factors. And then the more detailed uh perceptual phenomena like the the glowing floating floating specifically female figure that was being produced by these you know portion of the population with this temporal lobe liability that were having
414:49
Speaker A
these more complex hallucinations. So this is how cursing accounts for group religious experiences right there is something real there that groups of people are actually seeing but then a subset of those people are going to see something more detailed and that's going
415:05
Speaker A
to be produced by again private hallucinations influenced by cultural factors. So what Pierer suggested was because Egypt was so heavily religious when they're seeing this these glowing lights which were objectively real when they're seeing these anomalous orbs of
415:20
Speaker A
light and then a certain subset starts having more complex hallucinations because it's Egypt rather than the United States they're hallucinating the Virgin Mary rather than whatever space aliens or what might be more appropriate in another cultural context. So that
415:37
Speaker A
roughly speaking is tectonic strain theory and how Persinger applied it to Zon uh which as you noted you know then became a pretty popular um explanation.
415:48
Speaker A
So the the skeptic Joe Nickel in one of his books on um religious experience miraculous phenomena that was the explanation he adopted for Ziton and other authors in succeeding decades have have done the same. So in the book I've
416:04
Speaker A
got a a chapter on tectonic strain theory where I go through this in much more detail looking at uh Persinger's theory and then trying to argue that in fact it is not a very good explanation for Zoom.
416:16
Speaker A
Yeah. Do you just want to at least very briefly give a glimpse into some of those reasons? I mean like one thing one thing that I found funny was like okay so like Pinger was focused on tectonic activity that was what like 250 miles
416:31
Speaker A
away like 400 kilometers away which like just so happened to produce highly localized lights just on this church nowhere else just on this church which took a distinctive and discernable form of a woman performing intentional movements of walking around uh kneeling before the
416:52
Speaker A
cross, bird-like objects flying in formation together with all the healings. It's like I don't know, it seems like a pretty long stretch, but I'll turn it over to you.
417:02
Speaker A
Yeah. Well, no, I those are good points. And so, in the book, I give sort of a twofold assessment of of of tectonic.
417:09
Speaker A
But first I say, you know, um, assuming that tectonic strain theory is basically workable as like a general scientific theory, uh, does it actually help explain ziton? And I try to argue that really no, it doesn't, but for some of
417:24
Speaker A
the same reasons you just alluded to, right? Uh, even if tectonic strain theory in general is a good scientific model uh, for group religious experiences, it doesn't account for the very narrow localization of the ziton events. Right?
417:38
Speaker A
If Persinger's theory worked, what you should have expected was like Egypt should have been undergoing like a major UFO flap across the whole country. You wouldn't expect these phenomena to be restricted to the roof of a single church in, you know, one one little
417:53
Speaker A
suburb. Uh so it doesn't account for the narrow localization of the events. I don't think it accounts for the if Persinger's theory worked, you likewise would have expected that most eyewitnesses would have reported amorphous blobs of light and just
418:07
Speaker A
amorphous blobs of light like the objectively real thing that Pinger's theory posits and then maybe a small minority reporting something more detailed, right? That the minority that has this temporal lobe liability that's going to have more detailed hallucinations. That's not what you
418:22
Speaker A
find. What you find is um most eyewitnesses are reporting pretty detailed stuff, right? That just does not comport with what Pierers's theory would lead us to expect. So those are a couple of issues that come up um with
418:36
Speaker A
with why I think person's theory Yeah. Even his claim, his psychological claims, if I can just add, like have failed to replicate. And like the the amount of electromagnetic radiation in the atmosphere is like less than what you would get from like a or comparable
418:53
Speaker A
or less than what you'd get from like a blow dryer or like using your cell phone.
418:56
Speaker A
Well, this is the thing, right? So, so the other question I ask is okay, so leaving it. So, the first argument I give is like again assuming this is a workable theory, does it really help with zyune? I try to argue no it
419:09
Speaker A
doesn't. But then I ask well is it actually a workable scientific theory? And I argue that that no geologists have never confirmed uh Persinger's hypothesis that the phenomenon of earthquake lights can be prompted by something much lower than an actual
419:27
Speaker A
earthquake. Right? The geological side of his hypothesis has never been confirmed. Moreover, the the neuroscience literature of the last 20 years has not been kind to Persinger's theory. A whole variety of neuroscience labs have tried to replicate uh
419:42
Speaker A
Persinger's laboratory findings because because Pinger tried to support the neuroscientific component of his theory by setting up in his neuroscience lab these experiments in which he would get his students to put on this equipment.
419:54
Speaker A
He would flood their craniums with what he hypothesized were like just the right wavelengths of of electromagnetic activity. And then a certain proportion of his students would report would report sort of weird experiences while they were in this sensory deprivation
420:08
Speaker A
chamber wearing this helmet that was flooding their their their heads with with these electromagnetic wavelengths.
420:16
Speaker A
Other neuroscience labs just have been unable to replicate Persinger's findings. Moreover, they pointed out that the the electromagnetic wavelengths are probably not even able to penetrate the human skull. Right? So there's no way they can be affecting the brain at
420:32
Speaker A
all. So the arguments, the neuroscientific arguments against tectonic strain theory have just been accumulating over the last 20 years to the point where I think one can confidently say that Persinger's theory is is maybe not completely disproved but
420:48
Speaker A
it's on much shakier ground than it was you know 2530 years ago when when the theory was getting like a lot of popular media attention because for a while tectonic strain theory you know CNN was reporting on it the BBC was reporting on
421:03
Speaker A
it. Wired magazine did a long story on it in 1999 in which Persinger talked about Ziton as as an example of how to apply his theory. So yeah, the the succeeding decades have not been kind to uh to his account in my opinion.
421:20
Speaker A
You guys should definitely read and pick up Travis Dumsy's book. I his criticisms of this tectonic strain theory explanation just seem to me to be utterly devastating. Um, and you know, like just add again like doesn't explain the healings, doesn't explain massive
421:32
Speaker A
billowing clouds of incense, doesn't explain the insane independent convergences between testimonial accounts since, you know, he relies on these like private psychoggenic factors which like superimpose an interpretation over anomalous um objective stimuli. So like it's it's it's a disaster. Okay.
421:48
Speaker A
What about ball lightning? Well, a philosopher once suggested to me that the apparitions might be electrical in nature and related to ball lightning.
421:53
Speaker A
The flashing lights, sparks, luminous orbs, etc. all suggest chemical reactions generating light. Since the best explanation of ball lightning is vaporized silicon in the presence of carbon. Um I investigated whether there was silicon on the roof in the church. I
422:02
Speaker A
don't know for sure but silicon sealant for stone and concrete roofs became popular in the 60s. Also both concrete and limestone I assume the roof of St.
422:07
Speaker A
Mary's was composed of one of those materials have carbon in them. The fact that shortly before the first apparition the interior of the church became illuminated with no lights turned on also suggests that something was a miss electrically speaking near the church's
422:16
Speaker A
roof at the time. Further such electrical activity would produce ozone which would account for the incense smell. Uh, and since chemical reactions like this depend on a precise ratio of silicon to carbon, one would expect the phenomena to last a while but eventually
422:26
Speaker A
fade out in seas. The philosopher voiced a lack of confidence in medical reports given the real possibility of misdiagnosis. Okay, but this uh explanation just immediately collapses when faced with the facts. I mean, for starters, it's like just a vibes check
422:37
Speaker A
that even Muse gave me. Like this basically amounts to saying that there was an unprecedented electrical phenomenon that kept recurring for years exclusively at a specific location with religious significance and then was collectively misinterpreted by massive crowds in ways that are wildly
422:51
Speaker A
implausible and for durations that are not comparable to any analog in history. And you also just indiscriminately dismiss all the medical testimony regardless of the particulars because medical errors do occur in some contexts at some rate. This is not credible. But
423:05
Speaker A
it gets much worse as my friend Noah Mccay argues. First, ball lightning typically occurs only for a few seconds.
423:11
Speaker A
Typical lifetimes are around 1 to 10 seconds. As far as I know, there are no reported cases of ball lightning lasting for more than even 5 minutes. Yet, some of the Zetune apparitions lasted for hours on end. So, already from the
423:21
Speaker A
get-go, the naturalist is desperately positing an an utterly unprecedented occurrence, not once, but repeatedly.
423:25
Speaker A
Moreover, the duration of ball lighting is inversely related to its brightness. Average ball lightning is approximately as bright as an incandescent table lamp.
423:31
Speaker A
The apparitions were much brighter than that by basically all accounts. So, their duration should have been shorter than average, not longer. Third, when ball lightning forms in the open air, it ends in violent explosions. The sorts of comparable explosions that we would
423:44
Speaker A
expect to be occurring repeatedly and over and over and over and over again in Zetune are not at all what we see.
423:49
Speaker A
Fourth, on average, the diameter of ball lightning is only a few inches. The apparitions at Zetune exceeded the known limits of size for ball lightning.
423:57
Speaker A
Fifth, ball lightning is extremely rare. If lightning never strikes the same place twice, then ball lightning certainly doesn't. much less does it appear consistently every few days or weeks in one spot over the course of two years. Ball lightning, however, is
424:08
Speaker A
almost always observed during or immediately after a thunderstorm, but most of the reports we have from Zetune were on nights with clear weather. If the apparitions were really just caused by electrical problems in the church, together with the presence of silicon
424:16
Speaker A
sealant in the roof, then we should be seeing apparitions of Mary everywhere. Lots of roofs use silicon sealant and have electrical problems. Eighth, ozone does not smell like incense. It has a sharp chlorine or bleach-like smell, though it's usually more electrical,
424:28
Speaker A
metallic, or and biting than ordinary household bleach. That's not what incense smells like. Ninth, the apparitions appeared even when electrical power to the neighborhood was cut. So at least on those nights, the explanation was not electrical discharge from inside the church. 10th, ball
424:40
Speaker A
lightning is the wrong shape to account for Zetune. All the reports we have described it as globular or teardrop shaped. As far as Noah's research could tell, no one has observed ball lightning shaped like a dove or a person, let
424:48
Speaker A
alone a person with distinguishable facial features and engaging in intentional movements. And of course, like you know, this the striking independent convergences and whatnot.
424:55
Speaker A
The philosopher's dismissal, moreover, of the healings depends on dismissing the diagnostic abilities of doctors with respect to conditions that are hard to misdiagnose and oftentimes visibly obvious. Doctors, yes, doctors might misdiagnose conditions sometimes, but they're qualified to say whether a tumor
425:08
Speaker A
was there and is no longer there, which was visible on scans or to the naked eye or whether someone was paralyzed for years or or like whether their bicep was basically completely detached from the bone or whether they had a hernia. And
425:19
Speaker A
like one of the doctors, I think it was his own hernia that was healed. It's like he he's mistaken about his own hernia. was like looking down there and on and on and on and on and on. This is
425:28
Speaker A
not a serious hypothesis. None of the naturalistic hypotheses are particularly serious hypotheses. And that brings us to the final boss, the technological hoax hypothesis. This is the naturalist's only remaining option. The naturalist has literally been reduced to a conspiracy theorist. Naturalism is a
425:43
Speaker A
conspiracy theory. I mean, we already knew this from all the other miraculous evidence, but like at this point, it's pretty obvious naturalism is a conspiracy theory. But in any event, the conspiracy also straightforwardly fails to explain the data. First, we have overwhelming
425:56
Speaker A
testimony to a three-dimensional lifelike luminous female figure engaged in intentional movements, walking, kneeling, blessing the crowd, bearing morally religiously significant symbols, and viewable from a wide variety of vantage points. This would require holographic technology that simply did not exist at the time. No holographic
426:11
Speaker A
technology available in 1968 could have produced a freestanding opaque luminous lielike threedimensional figure executing sustained seemingly intentional movements and simultaneously visible and simultaneously visible from widely separated vantage points around the church without a visibly obvious screen or like a holographic medium and
426:27
Speaker A
highly specialized viewing apparatus and geometry. The sheer variability of the phenomena also makes the technological hoax hypothesis utterly incredible. The figure of the woman was reported to descend from the roof to the garden below the church. Was reported to float
426:39
Speaker A
up into the air, was reported to hover between trees. Like, dude. Second, a technological hoax very poorly explains the variable beginnings to the apparitions, including materialization out of the clouds and from a ball of light and from a thin slit of light. The
426:54
Speaker A
technological hoax would have to be insanely complicated to spontaneously materialize a bright luminous female figure out of a cloud. Third, the hoax gets even more insane when we consider the luminous dove-shaped figures seen to spontaneously appear in the sky. Right?
427:06
Speaker A
So, they're seen to spontaneously form in the sky, fly without flapping their quote unquote wings, sometimes in the formation of a cross, and then spontaneously disappear, like fizzle out. Maybe a search light would be able to produce that sort of thing, like free
427:17
Speaker A
floating in the atmosphere, like the bat signal. But first, the beam of light from the ground would have been evident to the witnesses. Secondly, these require cloud coverage or at least mist, smoke, and or other airborne particles to work. Yet, photos and testimonies
427:28
Speaker A
indicate at least many times there was it was a clear, dark, cloudless sky. And none of the eyewitness testimonies indicates that the doves only appeared in clouds or smoke. At least the ones that I at least the ones that I've come
427:38
Speaker A
across. And and third, the doves were described as themselves luminous or emitting light, which wouldn't be producible by a search light. One of the bishops that Pope Curillos uh tasked with looking into Zetun was Bishop Gregorius, who was bishop of scientific
427:53
Speaker A
research and Coptic culture. And I I love how they have a bishop of scientific research. I think that's awesome. Um I found a clip of him describing the so-called birds. And here's what he had to say.
428:07
Speaker A
The late Bishop Gregorio during a private interview told of doves the size of angels that would appear and disappear over the church.
428:16
Speaker A
Before they disappeared, they dispersed like cotton. Bishop Gregorio saw many doves at many different times over the church.
428:27
Speaker A
Sometimes there were seven, sometimes there were 12, and they were in a formation. Meanwhile, summarizing multiple sources, Wlette writes, "Many witnesses reported that there were luminous objects that traveled through the sky of Zetun, which were at first construed as birds, but
428:47
Speaker A
were clearly not birds. Their actual nature remains unknown to this day. They were described as follows. Another phenomenon witnessed by the spectators is the appearance of bird-like creatures before, during, and after the apparitions, and sometimes on nights when there is no apparition at all.
429:05
Speaker A
These creatures in some ways resemble doves. They are larger than doves. They are larger even than pigeons. Whence they come or whether they go, no one can determine. It is known, says the keeper of the Cairo Zoo, that pigeons do not
429:19
Speaker A
fly at night. But these can hardly be any kind of natural bird. First of all, they fly much too rapidly. They fly without ever moving their wings. Only one spectator interviewed thought he saw one bird flap its wings. They seem to
429:34
Speaker A
glide before, into, and around the apparitions. They never come to rest on the roof or trees and on some occasions have been seen to disintegrate in the sky like wisps of cloud. Varying in number on different nights they have
429:48
Speaker A
appeared singly in twos, threes and even larger groups. Always in some kind of formation, the creatures fly in the form of a triangle, sometimes in the formation of a cross. Once 12 of them flew six a breast in two rows. Not only
430:04
Speaker A
are these birds spotless white, they themselves emit light. They are like electrically illuminated birds which can be seen both in the brilliant light of the apparition and in the darkness of the sky above the apparition. They disappear as mysteriously as they appear
430:21
Speaker A
and without sound of any kind. Another description is from Bishop Gregorius on the apparitions that took place between 27 April and 15 May 1968.
430:33
Speaker A
Before the apparitions took place, some birds that look like pigeons, I don't know what they are, appear in different formations. Sometimes two appear on the dome just as if they had come out of it.
430:44
Speaker A
However, the dome is closed. The windows do not open. They might be seen flying eastward, then wheeling about and flying to the west. And while one watches them, they suddenly disappear.
430:56
Speaker A
And the fact that the windows of the dome do not open, they are sealed shut is important because it means that the birds of light could not be released from within the dome. That's also something you could tell by examining
431:11
Speaker A
the inside of the church because the dome is 50 feet above the floor and there is no structure under it that you could stand on. You'd have to put up scaffolding or big ladders to get up there. And that would have been obvious
431:26
Speaker A
if anybody had tried that, apart from the fact the windows don't open. Fourth, the technological hoax hypothesis does not explain medically documented healings of cancers, thyroid disease, blindness, and muteness, hypertension, paralysis, hernia, etc. Fifth, people checked the roof for the requisite
431:40
Speaker A
technology needed, and it was never found. A reported perimeter search found no evidence of projectors. Cutting off power to the church's neighborhood did not stay the apparition. In fact, it lasted for hours when that happened.
431:48
Speaker A
that removes the most obvious source of electricity for any technological hoax. Although, you know, it doesn't address portable sources of electricity like car batteries, right? So, there's like a car battery which is just like floating up into the air with Mary and then also
431:58
Speaker A
just like floating in between palm trees and everything. Evidence of evidence of which was was never found. Six, the hoax would require an insane number of sensors or a gigantic incense cloud producing machine to produce large billowing clouds of fragrant incense.
432:12
Speaker A
This conspiracy is just getting I mean absurdly baroque at this point. like this th this this is the desperate lengths you're going to avoid abandoning your naturalism. Pearl Zaki described that sometimes clouds like a thick fog would roll in towards the church as if
432:27
Speaker A
they were being channeled down the streets in all directions to completely cover the church. They seem to absorb the incense and its fragrance and carry it to the crowds of people and spread it over them like a canopy. Okay, dude.
432:36
Speaker A
Like this is not credibly produced by a technological hoax. Seventh, there's a lack of realistic suspects for carrying out the technological hoax. No government, as Travis Dums points out, in modern history has ever attempted something like this that is using
432:48
Speaker A
technology to fake a very public supernatural event for political purposes. So like, okay, on top of everything else, you're positing yet another unprecedented coincidence, my friend, give it up. Just give it up. Dr.
433:00
Speaker A
Dam is worth quoting at length here. The only suspects here would seem to be members of the Egyptian government and or members of the Coptic Orthodox hierarchy. And the two would not be wholly unconnected. Even if the hoax was
433:08
Speaker A
thought to be the brainchild of some section of the Egyptian government, the cooperation of at least some Coptic clerics, in particular, those charged with the care of St. Mary's Church would have been necessary. So, if the culprit was the Egyptian government, by
433:17
Speaker A
extension, there must have been some guilty parties within the Coptic clergy. The reverse would not hold. However, if some section of the Coptic hierarchy had decided to stage a hoax, uh there needn't have been any cooperation from within the Egyptian government. At any
433:26
Speaker A
rate, let's first consider whether the Egyptian government might have been involved. What could the motive have been? Suppose it was altruistic. Suppose it was altruistic. As we've seen in previous chapters, after the six- day war, the tensions between cops and
433:36
Speaker A
Muslims were significantly heightened on account of the fact that some were attempting to make the former out to be scapegoat out to be a scapegoat for Egypt's military defeat. Perhaps Nasser's administration realized that a public religious quote unquote miracle
433:48
Speaker A
at top a Coptic church involving a conveniently silent subject of veneration by both cops and Muslims would bring the nation together and lessen the chance of large-scale violence breaking out against the cops.
433:57
Speaker A
And more selfish motives could have been, you know, tossed in the mix. such, you know, such a miracle would attract foreign pilgrims and curiosity seekers whose presence would contribute positively to the, you know, straightened post post-war Egyptian economy. So maybe they just wanted
434:07
Speaker A
tourist revenue. Granting, again, merely for the sake of argument that the Egyptian government had the means and opportunity to stage such a fraud uh with the complicity of at least the clerics at St. Mary's Church. Do those suggested motives sound plausible such
434:18
Speaker A
that a government perpetrated hoax might seem might be seen as an adequate potential explanation for the Zetune phenomena? No. For the following reasons. First, no government in modern history has ever attempted something like this. Indeed, so far as we know, no
434:29
Speaker A
government in modern history has even seriously contemplated something like this. This suggested explanation is essentially unprecedented. And by the way, unprecedented. Hm. Positing something that's utterly unprecedented and contrary to our uniform experience.
434:43
Speaker A
I wonder who argued against doing that. I wonder who argued against. It sounds slightly familiar.
434:50
Speaker A
Anyway, second, put yourself for a moment in the position of a high official in the Egyptian government in 1968. Let's say your job is to find a way to reduce tensions between minority cops and majority Muslims for the
434:59
Speaker A
purpose of discouraging violence against the former. In the midst of brainstorming all the many, many policies you might pursue with that end in mind, how likely is it that it would cross your mind to fake a Marian apparition at top a Coptic Orthodox
435:10
Speaker A
church? On the off chance that it did cross your mind, would you seriously entertain the idea? Would you share that idea with other high government officials? And what are the chances that any of them would take it seriously?
435:20
Speaker A
Particularly if, as would have been exceedingly likely, they were Muslim. And even if somehow one could find other officials willing to entertain your insane fancy, how likely is it that no one would stop the process upon realizing the following? If the hoax
435:34
Speaker A
were discovered and Coptic clerics were found to be complicit, and surely some would have to be in order to run the con, the risk of violence against cops would skyrocket over whatever it had been to begin with. In other words, the
435:44
Speaker A
fake American apparition idea would have been seen as far too risky an option if the goal had been altruistic protection of the cops. Third, let's look at from the standpoint of the non-altruistic motivation and say your job is to find a
435:53
Speaker A
way to boost tourist revenue in order to begin refilling badly depleted government off coffers.
435:58
Speaker A
Run the same scenario in the midst of brainstorming all the many many policies you might pursue with that end in mind.
436:04
Speaker A
How likely is it that it would cross your mind to fake a Marian apparition to top a Coptic Orthodox church? The same problems would arise as above. Even on a non-alttruistic line of thought, the risk of retaliatory violence against the
436:14
Speaker A
cops would have would have to be taken into account in so far as Egypt's descent into mass civil violence against the minority group would surely curtail tourism. Moreover, even assuming a government official might entertain the notion of faking a supernatural event in
436:24
Speaker A
order to draw tourists in a 90% Muslim majority in a 90% majority Muslim nation surrounded mostly by other 90% plus majority Muslim nations. Wouldn't it make sense to fake an apparition of the angel Gabriel hovering above a mosque? I
436:37
Speaker A
mean, imagine the masses of pilgrims that could be drawn from across the entire surrounding Arab world.
436:43
Speaker A
Certainly, they would have far far exceeded the number of foreign Christian visitors who traveled to Egypt for Zetun. So, I say once again, naturalist friend. Give it up. God is beckoning you. The Virgin Mary herself is beckoning you to give it up. Okay. So,
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let's go on to vindicatory implications. So, um firstly, obviously, Marian intercession and devotion. healings were obtained through her intercession in a context suffused with Marian devotion, right? Uh God's like going out of his way to perform this miracle at top Copic
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Orthodox Church and like blessing the crowd and like having Mary bless the crowd as they sing songs like hymns of praise to Mary.
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Uber based by the way. It also vindicates that Mary is a queen mother. Mary was literally wearing a crown.
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How much clearer can it get, my dude? Mary is queen of heaven and earth. If you don't believe that, conform your mind to the facts. Mary is queen of heaven and earth. Okay, so we have just covered Marian apparitions and we're not
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close to being done. So let's go to Eucharistic miracles. Euchistic miracles have been reported throughout the history of the church. Well evident ones include launch from the medieval period, Tixla from 2006, Sakulka from 2008, Legita from 2013, and Bonosirus from
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1996. Each contemporary case involves a consecrated host found to have reddish spots with those spots sent off to scientists or laboratories which determine that the samples contain one or more of human blood of type A, white and red blood cells, cardiac muscle
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tissue, or at least tissue that most resembles muscle tissue and in particular cardiac muscle tissue. For the contemporary eucharistic miracles, I'll be drawing from Dr. Saraphini's book, A Cardiologist Examines Jesus, as well as from St. Beluga's article on
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Eucharistic Miracles. for launch. I'll just recommend Ethan Muse's two posts on this, the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanchiano and his post Flesh and Blood.
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Ethan, and to be honest, Ethan has like the best summary in his own words of this in his opening statement uh in a debate with uh a Protestant fellow. Oh, and you should definitely also watch this Eucharistic miracle of um evidence
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debate between Stacy Trosenos and Ethan Muse. Okay. For centuries, the Lanchiano relics have been venerated as the remains of a eucharistic miracle that is reputed to have involved a doubting priest witnessing the consecrated elements perceptibly transformed during mass. In this debate, I will argue that
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the best explanation for the origination and preservation of the launch relics is divine vindication of the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. Since my opponent forewarned me that he intends to propose a variety of alternative explanations, I will try to present the
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case for authenticity as comprehensively as I can. However, given that I only have 20 minutes, I will neither be able to explain the data as thoroughly as I would like to, nor to address every objection that has been raised by
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skeptics. I would encourage anyone that wants to learn more about the launch relics to check out my Substack Motiva credibility. My case for authenticity of the relics will proceed in the following stages. First, I will argue that the
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scientific examinations done by Dr. Wenoli have conclusively demonstrated that the relics are human cardiac tissue and human blood plots. Second, I will argue that it is historically certain that the Lanchiano relics existed in their current form by no later than the
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high middle ages. Third, I will argue that the origination and preservation of the relics can't be explained naturalistically since the data precludes both preodern and modern fraud. Fourth, I will briefly consider and then refute hypotheses the uh the
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hypothesis that the best explanation for the origination and preservation of the relics involves demons. And finally, I will argue that the on the supposition that the origination and preservation were miraculous. They were intended to vindicate transubstantiation.
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So now I'm going to begin with identification. In 1970, when the Archbishop of Lanchiano authorized a scientific examination of the Lanchiano relics, Italian scientist Odardo Lenoli was permitted to extract samples from the relics. Dr. Lenoli was the head of
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the laboratory of clinical analysis and pathological anatomy at the hospital of Azo in Tuscanyany. He was also a full professor of anatomy, hisystologology, chemistry, and clinical microscopy.
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After a thorough investigation, he concluded that the relics were human cardiac tissue and human blood clots.
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Furthermore, he solicited a second opinion from atheist Dr. Ruggero Bertelli, a professor of human anatomy at the University of Sienna, one of Italy's top secular universities. Dr.
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Bertelli Bertelli concurred with Dr. Wenoli's interpretation of his hisystological slides. In 1971, Dr. Wenoli published his results, including photo microraphs in a scholarly journal.
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In 1981, Dr. Wenoli carried out a supplemental investigation on a leftover fragment. The results of the follow-up study were even more conclusive than the original results since the newly examined fragment possessed evidentially significant features that had not been
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apparent in the fragment that Dr. Wenoli had previously examined during his investigation in 1970. Now, there are six converging lines of evidence that support Dr. Wenoli's identification of the relics. Gross anatomy.
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Macroscopically, the flesh is a circular disc. The combination of a rounded perimeter and concentric void indicates that it's from a hollow organ.
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Progressive thinning towards the center center indicates that it's a laminer section that's oriented tangentially to the surface of an ellypoid. So of ellypoidal hollow organ. The diameter of the flesh is approximately 55 millimeters which is fully consistent with the dimensions of the left
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ventricle of the heart of an adult human male. A discrete localized protrusion extends into the central void and remains continuous with the surrounding mass. That's suggestive of the heart which has that kind of relief.
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Hisytologology microscopically Dr. when we determined the flesh possess the characterizing features of myioardium. Dr. Bertelli confirmed quote examination of the slides has led me to conclude that the microscopic structures contained therein consist of strided muscle tissue. Although the nuclei and
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transverse striations of the hisystological elements are not visible in the preparations, the particular arrangement of these elements which are juxtaposed and grouped together to form small columns supports this diagnosis.
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The orientation of the muscle bundles which intersect across different planes and in various directions together with the presence of antomatic connections between individual fibers orients the diagnosis towards myioardial muscle tissue. Immunology Dr. Renoli performed a species identification test on both
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the flesh and the blood. Used commercial forensic grade antihuman serum from a reputable supplier and ran the reaction in parallel with controls rabbit boine and saline. The results were unambiguous. Both the flesh and the blood produced a clear precipitant band
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within in about five minutes with human anti- serum while no reaction appeared in the animal or saline controls. In the forensic literature, the combination of a rapid strong positive in the target anti- serum and complete negativity in controls is considered to be definitive
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proof of a true homologous match. The cardiologist Dr. Franco Saraphini declared the human origin of the launch relics is quotequalitatively unquestionable end quote. Blood grouping. Dr. Renoli performed the absorption illusion test on both the flesh and the blood. Both reacted with
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anti-A and anti-B anti-era, indicating that both belong to blood group AB. When included substrate controls made from blotting paper that had never come into contact with the samples, which produced no glutination. Regarding the possibility of microbial contamination, he concluded, quote, "The hypothesis
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that microorganisms are the origin of the A and B antigens is completely inconsistent. The miraculous heart had few colonies on its surface and not in the peripheral area from which the small fragment was taken. Numerous hisystological preparations have never
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demonstrated parasites which readily appear under basic sta staining." end quote. In 1991, Dr. Weno's AB result was independently reproduced by the University of Sienna. Chromatography.
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Dr. Wenoli performed thin layer chromatography on an alkaline extract of the blood. In triple kit runs, the migration of the extract was perfectly aligned with hematin standards, demonstrating the presence of hem derived compounds in the sample. Tykeman and Takyama tests came back negative,
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indicating that the hemoglobin was too degraded to produce crystals. However, as Dr. Anoli pointed out, degraded hemoglobin is decisive evidence of genuine blood. Dr. Dr. Anoli wrote quote the chromographic test on paper has full value for the recognition of blood even
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in severely damaged materials which no longer provide the reactions of hemoglobin. This study thus confirms the true hemetic nature of the ancient blood of want electropharesis. Dr. Renoli performed blood protein electropheresis in the blood. The electropharetic tracing showed a regular distribution of
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serum protein fractions matching the profile of human blood serum. Dr. Dr. Renoli emphasized the sequence of protein fractions was completely regular and comparable to that of fresh serum confirming the blood retaining the characteristics of fresh serum despite its antiquity. The proportions were
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consistent with the serum of humans and other primates but not with common domestic animals. Thus, the blood protein electropheresis results independently corroborate the true hermetic nature and species identity of the ancient blood. Furthermore, Father Nicola Nazuti pointed out that these
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results are astonishing since quote this for this test the sample cannot normally be kept for more than 2 to 4 days at 4° centigrade. Now, on to the providence of the relics. For the purposes of this debate, I don't need to prove the
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traditional account of the miracle is reliable. All I need to prove is that the only plausible explanation for the origination and preservation of the relics is a vindicator miracle.
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Nonetheless, there's compelling evidence that the relics date back to at least the high middle ages. Let's work backwards from 1970. In 1970, the 1886 Episcopal seals that were affixed to the relicquaries were broken in front of a large crowd of witnesses, and Dr. Wenoli
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was given permission to extract small fragments. The morphology, texture, coloration, and weight of the relics were found to be entirely consistent with 1886 inspection. The 1886 Episcopal seals impressed in wax with the bishop's unique matrix could not have been
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removed without leaving behind unmistakable signs of tampering. It would have been infeasible to forge replicas of the seals since the matrix that was used to produce them was destroyed in 1895. From the 17th century until the late 19th century, the chain
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of custody is secure. Episcopal visitation records confirmed the church was continuously exhibiting relics that had the same macroscopic appearance as the ones on display today. There was no proportionate motive for substitution since there were neither imminent plans to subject the relics to critical
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scrutiny, nor any available means by which species or organ identity could be verified. Fabricating substitutes would have required procuring fresh human heart tissue and clotted blood, aging them in a way that replicated the effects of centuries of natural
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degradation and tampering with reoquaries without detection. Multiple sources confirm an episcopal inspection took place in 1574. This examination was later commemorated in a marble epigraph that is visible today in the church of San Franchesco. The inscription carved in 1636 when the relics were transferred
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to a new chapel explicitly records the canonical recognition of the relics in 1574. In a chronicle written in 1620, the historian fellow reported that two friars told them, quote, "In in 1560, two bazillion monks came to the convent
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of St. Francis. They stole from us a parchment codeex written in Greek and Latin hidden between two tablets that contained a complete narration of the Eucharistic miracle. The bilingual format would have been entirely appropriate for an authentic document
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from the early middle ages, but completely unnecessary and impractical for a forger in the late middle ages.
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The earliest surviving reference to the relic dates to the 11th century. The Archbishop of Avera recounts the story of a eucharistic miracle in Italy in which the consecrated bread and wine perceptibly turned into flesh and blood which were then sealed within the altar
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by the local bishop for perpetual veneration. Although Greet the archbishop does not name laaniano, the details precisely correspond to the launch tradition. Now, let's go to the naturalistic inexplicability of the relics. The foregoing raises the question of how the relics could have
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come into being at the time they did. From the standpoint of naturalism, the only plausible explanation is fraud.
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Let's begin by considering preodern fraud. A premodern fraud would have required procuring a heart and blood from a fresh human corpse, fashioning the heart and blood into relics, and then introducing them into launch's devotional life in a in such a way that
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they were received as ancient and venerable. Preodern fraud is precluded by many lines of evidence. First, Dr.
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Dr. Renoli pointed out that only a very skilled hand in anatomical dissection could have managed, though not without serious difficulty, to obtain from a hall organ a uniform and continuous slice tangent tangential to the surface.
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In fact, the dissection required to produce the flesh would have been practically impossible for a premodern forger for many reasons, including the technique. Early modern anatomical dissection was expository. Meanwhile, there was basically no anatomical dissection at all throughout the
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entirety of the high middle ages. Even if controlled tangential planing of ventricular walls had been technically feasible, it's extremely unlikely that a premodern forger you know, pioneered and mastered that technique centuries before anyone else without leaving a trace.
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Equipment, the fraudster would have had to have maintained a subderee level of angular precision and depth precision throughout the entire dissection. That's actually not physically possible with freehand dissection, especially with preodern instruments, which are crude without mechanical constraints. Blade
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orientations governed solely by the operator's joints, and small perturbations are geometrically amplified. Fixation. The chemical fixatives required for precision sectioning of soft tissue were not invented until the 19th century and without them excising a uniform continuous transverse section with the
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tangential cut would have been practically impossible. Ventricles deform under minimal pressure. They shift, collapse, twist and recoil.
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Deformationations occur within the tw tissue itself, not at the operator blade interface. So neither skill nor ingenuity could have avoided them.
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Second, the species and organ identity of the relics makes no sense for a premodern fraud. Procuring and dissecting a fresh human cadaavver would have been unnecessarily difficult and risky. Animal flesh was easily accessible cheap indistinguishable from human flesh until the early 20th
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century. Even if a fraudster insisted on using human fle flesh, superficial muscle would have sufficed. The launch tradition doesn't identify the flesh as heart tissue and premodern audience didn't interpret it that way. If a fraudger went fraudster went out of
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their way to perform a complex dissection on a heart, doesn't it stand a reason that the fraudster would want their want the fact that their fake relic was a heart to be legible to their intended audience? Moreover, the AB
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blood would have to be yet another independent coincidence. Third, Dr. determined that preservatives had never been applied to the relics. It is it was common knowledge among everyone that flesh and blood needed to be treated or otherwise they would decompose. After
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going to all the work to procure the relics, a fraudster would not have tolerated the risk of immediate future faction. Nor would it have cost them anything in terms of credibility to apply a standard preservation technique since that easily could have been passed
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off as custodial decision. Fourth, without preservatives, even in highly favorable storage conditions, culinary meat only lasts for a few days. The situation with myocardium is even worse because it's highly cellular, water- richch, and metabolically fragile.
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Meanwhile, coagulated blood clots are among the least stable biological materials on the planet. Blood clots are fragile. They're hydration dependent fiber networks rather than structurally stable tissues. So, it's not clear how even if you use preservatives that short-term preservation of multiple
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freestanding coagulated masses would have been possible at all. Fifth, long-term preservation of soft tissue requires continuous suppression of water activity, micro microbial growth, and oxygen exposure. Egyptian mummies, for instance, tend to be well preserved because they were embombed and then
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sealed away from air and humidity. By contrast, in addition to never having been treated with preservatives, the launch relics were exposed for centuries and lurgical vessels that were neither airtight nor sterile. Dr. Woli noticed mold on the surface of cardiac tissue,
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direct evidence of ongoing environmental interaction. The blood clots were stored in a chalice that offered little to no protection against fluctuations in humidity in the open air. Six, the biomolelecular preservation of the relics would be extraordinary under any
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storage conditions up to and including refrigeration in a laboratory. Tracins of albumin can be recovered using highly sensitive modern techniques at nanogram level quantities. Globulins, especially alpha and beta globulins, almost never register at all. Against that background, Dr. Woli's results are
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inexplicable. The electropharesis protocol he employed would not have produced sharp well- definfined peaks unless microgram level quantities of each type of protein were available.
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That implies the launch relics retain serum proteins in abundances orders of magnitude greater than any comparable remains. Proportions electrophoretic tracings follow predictable trajectory as blood stains age. Albuman migrates.
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The alpha and beta bands vanish. The gamma band band grows disproportionately large. This gamma inflation is so consistent that forensic scientists have suggested using it as a dating technique. Not only did the launch relics preserve astonishingly high concentrations of serum proteins, they
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preserve them in the same relative proportions as fresh serum. Now, let's consider modern fraud. The only plausible scenario that merits consideration involves falsification by Dr. Wenoi himself. Once again, that's precluded by multiple lines of evidence.
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First, even if Lenoli falsified his results in their entirety, that would only f that would only partially explain the origination and preservation of the relics. To fully explain the data, the skeptic has to posit that Lenoli's fraud was the cover up for a similarly
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elaborate and nonsensical premodern fraud. Many of the features that exclude a premodern fraud can be inferred from the macroscopic appearance of the relics alone. Although the data that establishes species identity, absence of preservatives, and biomolelecular preservation would be undercut, the
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historically implausible dissection, exceptional preservation, and highly unfavorable storage conditions would be left as remainder. Second, Dr. Dr. Woli didn't have a proportionate motive.
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Professionally, he had everything to um to lose and nothing to gain. If he associated himself with a miraculous claim, he risked being regarded with suspicion by all his colleagues. If his study was discredited, the reputational damage would have been catastrophic. As
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a properly catechized Catholic, he understood that bearing false witness, especially by the Eucharistic miracle, would endanger his soul rather than earn him any merit. Third, if Dr. Renoli falsified his results, he did everything in his power to increase the likelihood
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that his fraud would be exposed. He voluntarily solicited the opinion of an independent expert and he voluntarily submitted both photographs and raw data to a scholarly journal. Both of those measures were his idea. They weren't forced upon him by anyone else. That is
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the opposite of the behavior that you would expect from a fraudster. Instead of minimizing outside scrutiny and retaining plausible deniability, he was much more transparent than he needed to be. That would have massively and needlessly increased both the risk and
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complexity of any fraudulent scheme. Fourth, Dr. Renoli never had unfettered control over the relics themselves. He was entrusted only with small fragments for testing. The relics remained in ecclesiastical custody. That many had to be cognizant of the possibility that the
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custodians would ask an independent researcher to attempt to replicate his findings if any doubts arose. In fact, that safeguard was not merely a theoretical possibility. Recall that an investigator from the University of Sienna independently reproduced the results of the AB blood grouping test
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that he performed. Fifth, if he falsified his results, why did he report negative results in Tyman and Takyama, but then go on to report an electropharetic tracing that was superimposable on fresh serum?
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Hemoglobin is known to be more chemically resilient than globulins. So this was an anomalous result. While the hypothesis of authenticity can easily accommodate this discordance, I find it hard to believe that a fraudster would have gone out of his way to invent
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anomalies that were sure to invite scrutiny rather than enhance his credibility. Six that would not have been practically feasible for fabricate the microraphs that he published in his scari journal article. In the 1970s, photomicography was filmed based and
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digital editing was decades away. Falsifying the microraphs would have required when to get his hands on untreated ancient cardiac tissue. Yet such material was for all intents and purposes un unobtainable. Pathology collections preserve organs in formulin.
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Archaeological remains rarely retain recognizable myioardium and when they do it's mineralized or mummified. It's unclear where he could have gotten his hands on centuries old naturally desiccated cardiac tissue that's depicted in his microraphs. So now that we've excluded those naturalistic
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explanations, let's turn to prednatural explanations. The hypothesis that the eucharistic miracle of launchiano is a demonic deception is wildly implausible.
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There are many points that could be made in this regard, but I will limit myself to two. One concerning the physical circumstances and another concerning the moral circumstances. As for the physical circumstances, the miraculous preservation of the relic exceeds the
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power of demons. This can be straightforwardly inferred from scripture. For instance, in Romans 8, St. Paul refers to a pervasive, unavoidable, inexraable law of decay that God has imposed upon all of creation as a punishment. That means that you can't dispense from the law of
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decay without the active cooperation of God. And thus to basically to grant incorruption would be a uniquely divine prerogative following from that. That's also reaffirmed in Genesis 3 with how God actually phrases the curse of death that he imposes upon Adam. He the
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language of for you are dust and to dust you shall return to express the death curse indicates that decomposition is regarded as a natural completion of death and that God's exclusive sovereignty over life and death which is referred repeatedly throughout the Bible
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extends to corruption and incorruption. Thus granting incorruption should be viewed as a unique divine prerogative in the same way that resurrecting from the people from the dead is a uniquely divine prerogative. And then third in Acts 13 St. Paul appeals to incorruption
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as a unique fruit of Christ's resurrection. And in fact, it's central to St. Paul's redemptive theology that that is something that is unique. It's not a fruit that demons could just confer willy-nilly for 2,000 years to random relics. As for the moral
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circumstances, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist was uncontroversial among Christians at the time the relics came into existence.
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Furthermore, the relics didn't have any persuasive value for non-atholics until more than a thousand years later when they were scientifically examined. Since demons lack determinate foreign knowledge, it makes no sense for them to try to execute plans in that time scale,
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especially plans with the foreseeable consequence of confirming people in their faith in Christ in the short term.
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Moreover, if sustained deceptions over centuries involving physical traces were within the scope of demonic power, it's extremely surprising that the only credible examples of them occur within Catholic contexts. The overall distribution of such miracles strongly disisconfirms the expectations of my
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opponent's model. Now, on to the vindicatory implications. Finally, now that we've established that the origination and preservation of the relics are best explained by a genuine miracle, let's think think through the implications of the miracle. It is clear
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that the eucharistic miracle of watch was performed with a vindicatory intent that went far beyond the immediate context of the event. God produced tissue with evidentially significant features that would only become legible in modern times and then miraculously
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conserve the relics so that they purred until modern times. Moreover, he preserved them in such a way that suggests that he was more concerned with preserving their evidential value for modern scientists than with preserving their visual appearance for lay
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audiences. On the one hand, the heart tissue is mold spotted, the blood clots are brittle and fissured, and their surfaces are dull and irregular. On the other hand, they've inexplicably retained enough structural integrity and immun reactivity to confirm the organ
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and species identity for Dr. Wenoli. So, what's the message of this that's being vindicated? At a minimum, it's obvious that the author of the miracle intended to confirm the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and thus presupposed
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mere Christianity. We also may ask about transubstantiation in particular. So, two points on that. First, it's worth pointing out the perceptible change of the accidents of bread to the accidents of flesh during Eucharistic miracle does not constitute transubstantiation.
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Furthermore, the accidents of flesh that remain after the miracle do not inher. He's not the subject of those accidents.
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They exist in a similar way as the accidents of bread after the consecration when there's not a eucharistic miracle. However, the perceptible change from accidents of bread to accidents of flesh signifies a change in substance. It's essential to
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distinguish between the sign and what it signifies. Padre Pio stigmata signified Christ's five holy wounds even though they were certainly not numerically identical to them. In fact, the locations didn't even perfectly correspond to those of Christ's wounds.
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Reasonable people understand that the accidents of bread perceptively changing into accidents of flesh points to a change in the substance of a sort that is affirmed by the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.
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Second, the overall distribution of scientifically verified eucharistic miracles uniquely privileges Catholicism. In addition to launch, five other eucharistic miracles have been corroborated by laboratory analyses and all of them occurred within Catholic contexts. If Catholicism is true, that makes perfect sense. According to
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Catholic doctrine, the Eucharist can only be licitly confected by a priest that's in communion with Rome.
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Meanwhile, if Catholicism is false, the overall distribution of Eucharistic miracles is baffling. One might attempt to dismiss all of this as a sampling bias that overlooks a key point. If God intends to use these miracles to send a
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message, then verification is providential. There would be no reason for him to allow his intended message to be distorted by a sampling bias that it is completely within his power to correct. Again, check out these two posts if you want much more information.
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Here are some pictures from Saraphini's book. Um, this is Inosen stain at 200 magnification bundles of mostly longitudinal fibers. This is one from the micro slides. Bundles of mostly longitudinal fibers suggested a superficial area of the cardiac muscle.
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Here is malerie stain 250 magnification. Amid myioardial fibers, an arterial blood vessel can be seen on the right and a nerve structure on the left.
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Mallerie stain 400 magnification. The rugged appearance of the endocardium can be seen on the inner surface of the cross-sectional. Here's the 17 Here's the 1713 silver and crystal glass shrine containing the launch relics themselves.
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My parents have actually gone to Italy and seen these with their own eyes. Very cool.
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This is the blood of Lanchiano. Miracle made up of five clotted clumps. Here's the flesh. I mean, dude, like again, like meta point. You're pausing in order to explain this away. Like multiple unprecedented coincidences to explain why they did it. Like no fraud in
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history has features like this. No preservatives used on a human heart that has lasted for centuries and whole globules of clotted human blood persisting for centuries in an Italian climate. To deny a miracle, you need to posit multiple multiple unprecedented
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coincidences that happen to converge in highly striking ways. And for further considerations against naturalistic and fraud hypotheses again see those posts. Onwards we march to the second and contemporary eucharistic miracle tla 2006.
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So this is from a post by St. Beluga. Eucharistic miracles got under the microscope. So this happened in Tla Mexico in 2006. Father Leopoto roque pastor of the parish of St. Martin of Tours invited Father Raundo Ura Estabbon, known affectionately as Father
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Rayito, to lead a spiritual retreat for his parishioners. The 600 retreat attendants filed into the auditorium to celebrate the Sunday mass on October 22nd, 2006. During the communion distribution, Sister Aureli Maroin noticed one of the hosts exuding a
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reddish substance that looked like fresh blood. The Eucharistic host was reserved for later study. And here's the bleeding here's a bleeding host of Tixla shortly like I think this is minutes after the event on October 22nd, 2006. Also at the
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Tixla town hall auditorium on October 22nd, 2006, Far Rayito shows those who attended mass the consecrated host that had just bled. The the the sister who found it in her saborium or whatever brought it up to him and he showed the
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congregation. We also have a video of this moment. And again, this is the Tika Saborium a few minutes after the event on October 22nd, 2006. In the weeks following the event, Manscior Allejo Zavalak Castro um the bishop of the
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local dascese of Jilansingo set up an inquiry committee that collected the sworn testimonies of witnesses. 3 years later, Dr. Ricardo Caston Gum is a clinical psychologist who was interested in studying eucharistic phenomena contacted Bishop Castro. Dr. Castinon had founded a
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company group of international parapas that recorded the sampling of relics and reported them to a wide network of laboratories in a clear unbroken and documented chain of custody under blinded conditions. He was appointed to begin investigations of the tix host in
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2009 and collected samples that were sent to multiple forensic labs. Dr. Orlando Rodas Berno and Dr. Elisa Hernandez de Roa specialists in surgical oncological gastro gastrointestinal pathology and cytology at Patalohia Medica reported the following. Patloia medicica that's PAM medad we have the
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PATMD reports I'll put both of them in the resource document the architectural fibers show bifurcations which can be seen in cardiac muscle the structure of the tissue was consistent with muscle tissue from the heart but definitive microscopic identification was not
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possible because of the because the decomposition of the sample several kinds of cells were visualized fat cells red blood cells and white blood cells the microscope slides even showed a macrofasage type of white blood cell in the middle of ingesting fatty debris
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both of these laboratories were blinded by the way to the nature of the sample the GX the the GX genetics laboratory in Bolivia found the following An immunosa for the detection of human hemoglobin was positive. The test was specific for
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the human version of hemoglobin, a protein in red blood cells, confirming that the blood was human. The blood was type AB negative. The AB negative blood type is the rarest blood type of the world comprising less than 1% of the
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population. Here we have longitudinal fibers found in the the tissue within the host. They have a tendency to bifrocate and then seemingly anastimos up here at the top. And that's and that's typically seen in cardiac muscle.
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It's characteristic of cardiac muscle. Dr. Dr. Eduardo Sanchez Lazo, professor of legal and forensic medicine at the National Autonomous University of Mexico, also studied a sample and signed a statement with the following conclusions. The imunological study shows that the blood is of a human and
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the iminohisitochemical test allows us to say with all objectivity and certainty that it belongs to blood group AB. This confirmed the findings of the genetics laboratory. He did iminohistochemical tests. He then determined that the tissue under study corresponds to the heart due to its
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Speaker A
macroscopic characteristics. He also showed that the sample presents an outflow of blood from its interior to its periphery. That is the blood comes from the interior to the exterior. Uh the possibility that the bleeding comes from the outside inwards is ruled out.
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Speaker A
To evaluate signs of fraud, Bishop Castro had requested that the doctor study whether the blood had been added to the host from the outside and Dr.
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Speaker A
Lazo confirmed that there was no external source of the blood. This investigation engaged laboratories and scientists in multiple countries who worked independently. They were not told where the specimen came from or what the other laboratories had found.
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Laboratories used diverse complimentary techniques, microscopic evaluation, and an array of im imunological and biochemical tests to analyze the sample and ultimately arrived at the same conclusion. This was tissue most resembling heart muscle and type AB human blood was present. The extensive
463:25
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investigations of the tixel host confirmed that this was truly biological tissue containing muscle, fat cells, red blood cells and white blood cells.
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Speaker A
Furthermore, the human blood as said contain came from the interior of the host and spread outward instead of originating from the outside. Here are some other photographs I think from the patmed report that um Dr. Saraphini includes in his book and again you know
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Speaker A
I've I've seen both the pat reports and I've linked both of them in the resource document. Here we have fibers displaying degradation phenomena. So we have fragmentation. You can see fragmented fibers here. poorly visible nuclei, lack of striations. However, the tendency of
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Speaker A
the fibers to bifrocate at anastimos with one another typical of myioardial cells is still evident here. This picture, this picture, Saraphene adds a large and nearly square macroofase whose cytoplasm is filled with lipid material that has just been fagusetized.
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Speaker A
Amorphous material in atapose cells can be seen at the top right. A branched unstained structure in keeping with a bread tular element can be seen in the middle here. A cluster of atapose cells recognizable due to the large white
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Speaker A
fat-filled inner cavities taking up all the cytoplasm in each cell can be seen. Here's an acetaphile cluster made of blood undergoing autotoysis. Single ariththraittytes are no longer distinguishable, although a neutrfil lucasite on the lower right and an eocinophile lucasite on the top left can
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Speaker A
still be recognized. So, you know, to summarize, we have tests from two blinded laboratories as well as photographs of the samples and tests as well as Dr. Sanchez Lazo's laboratory analyses who note well Dr. Sanchez Lazo knew that he was working with a
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Speaker A
community host unlike the blinded laboratories. There was also a conference in Spanish viewable online where the results of the various tests are summarized with photographs and I think even videos etc. Um here's a here's a summary of here's a summary of
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all the results that were found from these various investigations. A capillary imunocchromatography test specific for human hemoglobin was positive. Hytoological validation uh there was histoological validation of red blood cells via hematoxin and eosin stain. Neutrfils a cell suggested of a
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Speaker A
macrofase immediately after fagicitizing cellular debris which was confirmed to be such by Saraphini. Cells resembling atapose tissue which were confirmed to be such by Saraphini. plant cells in the periphery almost certainly from the wheat flour making up the host material
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Speaker A
and likely cardiac muscle fibers exhibiting fragmentation poorly visible and decentralized nuclei lack of striation and a tendency to bifrocate anos which as again is characteristic of cardiac muscle immuninohistochemistry tests probing the tissues with selected antibodies confirmed the presence of
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Speaker A
myoparoxidase and glyophorin a the form of which is an enzyme unique to certain lucasytes the latter of which is unique to the cell membranes of red blood cells we have independent tests confirming the presence of A and B antigens with color
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Speaker A
photographs as reported by Saraphenei and also a deter termination of Rh Rh minus blood group. Desmond and measin molecular probes did not react with the sample. That's a negative result. Though the PAMD scientists themselves reported that this may be due to the advanced
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Speaker A
autotoysis and degeneration of the fibers that was already demonstrated hisystologically as well as the fact that the tissues were not properly fixed. To quote PATMD's report, the tissues remained for a long time without a fixation medium. A DNA profiling
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analysis was carried out by Dr. Eduardo Sanchez Lazo that did not amplify. So the DNA so they didn't get an amplifiable genetic code from the sample. Multiple tests indicate the blood came from inside the hosts. As Saraphini writes, Dr. Sanchez Lazo
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analyzed the macroscopic, microscopic, and structural features of both the brownish stains and the host to understand the reciprocal spatial relationship. He elaborated on this 4550 minutes into his conference talk available on the web. This is also in his signed report, by the way. His
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Speaker A
assessment ruled out the hypothesis that the blood could have wetted the surface of the host from the outside. If that were the case, it would have passed through and uniformly soaked the entire thickness of the underlying bread.
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Speaker A
Instead, what we'd actually see in an ideal cross-section of the Tikla miracle would be the image of an inverted cone of blood crossing the bread through and through only in one single middle point slightly enlarging before reaching the
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Speaker A
exterior and then expanding on the surface of the host itself, no longer no longer wetting it. Hence, the blood seemed to behave as if it were coming from an actual small like wound, a blood vessel bleeding from a superficial point
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Speaker A
of injury with the blood rising toward the exterior of the wound and only on the skin surface would it spread out forming a larger stain. So again like it almost like came from inside to the outside almost looking like a cone. The
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Speaker A
same finding was validated by Dr. Castanon using infrared light. In 2010, four years after the initial event, a high power ultra bright white and UV light emmitting digital microscope scan revealed that fresh blood was still present in the stained portion of the
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Speaker A
host beneath a superficial layer of clotted blood. This was a test performed by imaging expert and engineer Fernando Rodriguez Perez, not by the two blinded labs I I mentioned. And we also have photographs. These are from the uh the
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Speaker A
conference presentation. Heck, the PATMED tests and photographs were done about 5 years after the event, and they remarkably found all these identifiable intact tissues inside the host. One of PatMed's reports characterized the specimen it received as quote consisting
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Speaker A
of several whitish portions with reddish brown areas. The entirety is submitted in one block," unquote. That was translated from Spanish into English by the latest version of Chacht. This indicates that Patmmed actually received a bit of the communion host with the
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Speaker A
reddish brown areas attached. Notably, Patmmed also identified in the sample images, quote, "A moderate amount of quantity of easily identifiable plant-like fibers which have rigid walls and do not show slight staining with hematoxin and in an irregular and
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Speaker A
non-homogeneous manner," unquote. That is exactly what we'd expect if they examined the host itself. As Saraphini says, "As expected, they were part of the wheat flour making up the host surrounding and supporting the analyzed tissues examined thus far." So, we
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Speaker A
literally have like these independent cooperations that Pame actually is examining the host itself that was sent to them. And again like they're finding white blood cells and red blood cells and like fibers that are like most resembling of cardiac muscle tissue. Now
468:23
Speaker A
the bacterial or fungal contamination hypothesis you know like a lot of skeptics will be like ah yes but Joe did you know did you know Joe that um actually Sriracha meisens or whatever can produce that's a bacteria and it
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Speaker A
grows on bread and it can produce red spots. Did you know that? Mhm. Uh, well, I bet you didn't know that, Joe. Dude, the bacterial or fungal contamination hypothesis has been decisively refuted here. A bunch of different hisystological examinations and multiple
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Speaker A
immunoistochemical tests and a capillary imunocchromatography test specific for human heelin independently converge to refute this hypothesis. The other tests corroborate it too like the red liquid came from inside the host, not a bacterial growth on top of the host,
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Speaker A
fresh blood was present years later, etc. Okay. So, what's your remaining option? Fraud. That's your remaining option. Well, there's no independent evidence of fraud. This is just like a desperate last ditch effort by the naturalist or the Protestant or the
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Speaker A
Orthodox to posit a conspiracy theory to explain away where Calcatan data. And also, you know, like as a general rule of thumb, you know, we shouldn't accuse people of being fraudsters without like independent evidence that they are in
469:28
Speaker A
fact like, you know, like liars and fraudsters. But in any case, the fraud hypothesis faces serious problems. Blood from inside the host, right? Fraud would involve placing blood on top of the host. It does not make blood sprout from
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Speaker A
within the host itself. As per Dr. Lopez's and Dr. Castinon's findings, fresh blood was reported years later underneath coagulated blood. Again, fraud would involve placing blood on top of the host. It is not explaining fresh blood underneath clotted blood. The
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Speaker A
investigators were very forthcoming about negative results. This is not at all what we would expect from a fraudster, right? They were forthcoming about failed DNA amplification. They were forthcoming about the failed Desmond and Mison probes. This is not
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Speaker A
what we would expect from a fraudster. We'd expect the fraudster to be like, you know, suppressing those as much as possible. There is photographic and videographic evidence of the host from the mass immediately after the host visibly transformed. Moreover, the local
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Speaker A
paper Dario 21 published an account of the events that took place by giving the names of the eyewitnesses and reporting their interviews. One of them was the woman in front of whom the religious sister who discovered the bloody host
470:23
Speaker A
had paused her distribution of holy communion. According to this woman, the sister walked to the altar with teary eyes and showed the saborium with the bloody host to father Rayito. The bloody host had a moist fryable The bloody host
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Speaker A
had a The bloody host had a moist fryable texture. A diosisin committee collected 17 statements given by different people who all agreed with the sworn testimonies to those who are directly involved. I mean like you could implicate the priest in a conspiracy
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Speaker A
together with the later investigators who had custody of the same host. But you know now you've got an increasingly baro conspiracy theory on your hands.
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Speaker A
You'll also probably need to implicate Dr. Sanchez Lazo who handled the host extensively in his investigation and Dr.
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Caston. And also, of course, you know, you'll probably need to explain away the test results above as fabricated as they conflict with fraud. So, um, not looking good. You know, you know, like a big objection that a bunch of skeptics like
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Speaker A
to tout is that, well, dude, the DNA profiling analysis didn't amplify. Did you hear that? The DNA profiling analysis didn't amplify. I told you the DNA profiling analysis didn't amplify.
471:16
Speaker A
Okay, so in response, first, bacterial and fungal contamination have been decisively ruled out. That leaves the naturalist with fraud. But the fraud hypothesis doesn't predict any better than the miracle hypothesis that the DNA would fail to amplify. If the failed DNA
471:31
Speaker A
amplification is surprising under the miracle hypothesis because we should expect white blood cells, human blood, etc. to contain amplifiable DNA. Well, then the same is true for the fraud hypothesis, right? We should expect artificially placed blood, white blood
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Speaker A
cells, etc. to contain amplifiable DNA too, right? We know that those are present in the samples. So, it's equally surprising under the fraud hypothesis that they didn't amplify. So, this is not discriminatory evidence against the miracle hypothesis. Second, there are
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totally reasonable explanations for why the amplification failed that don't impugn the case for a miracle. For example, tissue degradation insis that was itself noted by the laboratories themselves. Right? So, I mean like those two points suffice. I think you know
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Speaker A
those two points just like completely suffice to put this objection to bed. But there's here's a bonus point. Um suppose we adopt a model of God's activity in the world that we could call the hiddenness model. I'll say more
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Speaker A
about this in section five on demonic phenomena. You know, according to the hiddenist model, God's aim with miracles is to provide and you know, his general aim just like in his activity with creation is to provide enough evidence
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Speaker A
to convince sincere, honest, open inquirers, but enough wiggle room and obscurity to preserve the psychological possibility of doubt. And this model makes it unsurprising that for any given miracle, there would be both one, a core of pretty significant evidence favoring
472:36
Speaker A
it, but two, some relatively peripheral aspects of the miracle that are anomalous or less than ideal that the miracle skeptic can kind of latch on to and kind of like preserve the psychological possibility of doubt, even though those should not rationally carry
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Speaker A
the day. And I mean, personally, I've seen this pattern come up miracle after miracle after miracle. Like for example, you know, Zetune skeptics will latch on to the scarcity of photographic or video evidence um or some of the small
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Speaker A
divergences in eyewitness testimony despite the very significant core evidence from overwhelmingly consistent testimonies and whatnot. Eucharistic miracle skeptics will point to the failed DNA amplification despite the very significant core evidence from extensive photographic hisystological and biochemical testing. Now given this
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Speaker A
model, given this hiddenness model of divine activity, it wouldn't be too surprising if God intentionally caused or permitted something like failed DNA amplification or some other negative test result in order to maintain the psychological possibility of doubt. I
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Speaker A
mean, other possible reasons have been proposed as well for like which seem implausible to me. Um, but are not like hopelessly ridiculous concerning why God might have permitted this sort of thing or actualize that, you know. Um, for
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Speaker A
example, preventing people from using like degree of similitude with Jesus's DNA to justify discriminatory attitudes or behaviors. um or like preventing the risk of future cloning of Jesus or you know whatever. But again, that's just a bonus point. My first two points suffice
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Speaker A
to refute this objection and this is just like a maybe like a bonus point about like more generally it wouldn't actually be too surprising under theism if there are like some minor peripheral embarrassments or anomalies with respect to some of the miracle phenomena that
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Speaker A
should not rationally carry the day uh but which skeptics can and do in fact often cling to. But anyway, again repeated histoologgical identification and examination immunochromatography tests specific or human hemoglobin blood comes from inside the host like blood
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Speaker A
found years later underneath the fresh blood underneath coagulated blood. AB blood type AB negative blood type happens to happens to correspond with the blood type of the laniano relics.
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Speaker A
Hm. And the shroud and the sudarium h imuninohistoch imohohhistochemistry tests probing the tissues confirming the presence of myoproxides glyophorin like we could go on and on and on and on.
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Speaker A
Okay, so that's tixla. I think that's like the probably the strongest contemporary case, but I think there are other lots of strong cases too. So let's get into those. Once again, we're at St.
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Speaker A
Beluga's article. So, here is um uh a close-up picture of the communion host at Sakulka, where the red tissue is joined to a host fragment here on the top left. And the underlying service here is a linen corporal with an emro
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Speaker A
embroidered red cross here. So, we got a linen corporal in the back, uh an embroidered red cross on the corporal and they, you know, they took part of the um the host and the the tissue and put it on the corporal. So, this
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Speaker A
occurred at St. Anthony of Padawa Church in Sakuloka, Poland. On on October 12th, 2008, a priest placed a host, a piece of consecrated bread, in a container of water after it had fallen to the ground.
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Consecrated hosts that become dirtied are usually dissolved in this way so that they can be poured into a squarium for disposal. Sister Julia Dowski Sister Julia Dowska the parish sacristan placed the container in the Socrates safe. One week later she was astonished
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Speaker A
to find in the container a red substance connected to a partially dissolved host and she quickly informed the other priests. After 18 days of submersion in water, the tissue and the associated hosts were moved to a linen corporal and
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left to dry. In January 2009, the Archbishop asked two anatomical pathologists from the medical university of Beielto to examine the tissue.
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Speaker A
Professor Maria Elbiera Subaniac Latska and Professor Stanislaw Sukski. Man, you guys have the most absurdly gratuitous language conceivable. Man, okay. Uh these doctors and professors um were both highly respected pathologists in their university who had each published dozens of research articles in
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peer-review journals. Subaniac Klatowska took a small sample of the red portion along with its connection to the host and gave half of it to Sakul Sakulski um for microscopic analysis. He was not told of its origins at first so that he
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Speaker A
could independently analyze the tissue without prior biases. The professors each came to the same conclusion after inspecting the tissue with both light and electron microscopy. The samples were heart muscle. The Polish newspaper Naz Zenik interviewed Sapanek Lowski in
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Speaker A
Sakolski in December 2009. The following is an excerpt of that interview. If we put the communion wafer in water, uh, in the normal course of events, it should dissolve in a short time. In this case, however, part of the communion for some
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Speaker A
incomprehensible reason did not dissolve. Moreover, what is even more incomprehensible, the tissue that appeared on the communion was tightly connected to it, infiltrating the substrate on which it was formed. Take my word for it that even if someone had
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Speaker A
intended to manipulate it, he would not have been able to connect the two structures so inseparably. Sulcowski found two things astonishing about this sample. First, the commun wafer, which contains only flour and water, did not decompose after 18 days of submersion in
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Speaker A
water. Second, the bread and cardiac muscle tissues were intricately interwoven in a way that would be impossible to accomplish through human manipulation. So, Sulkowski gave that um testimony earlier. He's uh Soak Latski uh Latauska. Here's Sabanak Lata. This
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Speaker A
remarkable phenomenon of the intermingling of the communion and the fibers of the heart muscle observed in both light microscopes and transmission electron microscopy also demonstrates to me that there could be no human interference here. In addition, please note another unusual phenomenon. The
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Speaker A
communion stayed in the water for a long time and then even longer on the corp roll. Thus, the tissue that appeared in the communion should have undergone a process of atysis, a type of necrosis or tissue death. Examining the collected
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Speaker A
material, we found no such changes. I think that at the current stage of development of knowledge, we are not able to explain the study phenomenon solely based on natural science.
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Transmission electron microscopy can be used to visualize incredibly small details, including viral particles in atoms. After using this exquisitly sensitive tool, Saban Klatska agreed with Sakulska's assessment of the interwoven fibers. This integration could not have been achieved by any
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human craft. She also affirmed that the cardiac tissue should have decomposed in water, yet it remained intact without any signs of degradation. Because of these astonishing findings, Subanaklowska and Sulkowski were formally reprimanded by their university and accused of carrying out quote
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Speaker A
illegal and quote disloyal investigations that incorporated quote the emotional aspects of their Catholic faith. A tabloid magazine article speculated that the red substance might have been bacterial contamination with Sriracha Marcusens. Even though these rod-shaped bacteria look nothing like
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Speaker A
heart tissue under the microscope, the president of the Polish Rationalist Association even initiated a frivolous lawsuit calling for a criminal investigation for murder since the heart tissue must have come from someone.
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Sowski defended what he did. We have the duty to investigate every scientific problem just as a doctor cannot refuse to care for a patient. Likewise, we have the duty to research every scientific problem according to the guidelines of
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Speaker A
the Polish Academy of Sciences. What about what about fraud? Only two people had keys to the safe with a transformed host. But let's imagine that someone got access and wish to publicize a miracle garner attention. It's difficult to envision such a person
478:42
Speaker A
going to the trouble if they even had the ability to fabricate a piece of heart tissue interwoven with bread in the anticipation that would later be examined under an electron microscope.
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Reporting these scientifically inexplicable findings only harmed their professional reputations at the university. So Sabanakowski and Sakolski lack any obvious motive for colluding or falsifying their strange results when they were already respected for publishing traditional journal articles.
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Speaker A
On the contrary, their rigorous approach convinced them to stand by their objective findings despite the surrounding controversy. The results highlight both the usefulness of science and confirming a tissue's identity and the limits of our current knowledge of science to explain everything. Saraphini
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Speaker A
Saraphini gives a summary of the results independently obtained by both researchers. The sample material is myioardial tissue. In their final report both in their final report in their final report, both professors stated the following. The specimen is myioardial
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tissue or at least out of all the tissues of a living organism, myioardial tissue is the one which is most similar to it. The fibers actually demonstrated centrally located nuclei. Moreover, the remnants of intercolated discs and bundles of delicate myophibbrals could
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Speaker A
be recognized under the electron microscope. The analyzed material was made up of such myioardial tissue in its entirety throughout. Pathological signs such as segmentation and fragmentation were present in the muscle fibers.
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Speaker A
Nonmetically speaking, these are signs of a truly suffering heart muscle tissue. Segmentation is the detachment of myophibbrals from the intercolated discs to which they are normally bound.
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It is a phenomenon resulting from the rapid repeated spasms of heart muscle cells in the context of imminent death.
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It should be pointed out that this is not a degenerative change taking place after death. Segmentation can only happen in a living heart muscle cell in agony. The appearance of some muscle fibers was in keeping with contraction brand necrosis. This is typically
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Speaker A
characterized by thickened contraction bands spanning the short axis of heart muscle cells parallel to intercolated discs. As we shall see in later chapter, CBN is specifically caused by a condition known as stress induced cardiammyopathy as well as by the late
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Speaker A
as well as by the late reprofusion stage of the common heart attack. Myioardial fibers in the substance of the bread hosts were making contact with one another. This is another one of their findings in an inexplicable way. The
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high degree of intimate microscopic inner penetration seen at their interface was extremely remarkable and unachievable by any kind of humanly conceived instrument or method or methodology available at present.
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Professor Sabanakauska pointed out that this was an astonishing finding ruling out the possibility of a man-made artifact. Lastly, as with other eucharistic miracles, the persistence of mioardial tissue along with the unleavened host bread is inexplicable.
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Both intact without signs of decay or degradation in the absence of any preservative after all the time first spent in water and then in air for months and currently and currently uncorrupted for many years for those going on a pilgrimage to Sakuloka. We
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Speaker A
got a photograph at the church, the Here's the monstrance displaying the Eucharistic miracle at St. Anthony Padawa Church in Sakuloka.
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So we have light microscope and electron microscope examinations undertaken independently by two highly regarded anatomical pathologists at the University of Bellisto who identified the sample as most likely myioardial fibers. Centralized nuclei were identified as were myophibbrals and remnants of intercolated discs as was
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fiber segmentation and fragmentation. Microscopic inter penetration of the mioardial fibers in the host material was also identified. Bacterial or fungal contamination is extremely implausible and relies on two professional pathologists independently making a kindergarten level misidentification. As Saraphini writes, it should be clarified
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Speaker A
once and for all that any microscope, even one they gave me as my present for like my first holy communion as a child can deliver justice after all this nonsense. A colony of rod-shaped anterobacteria indeed looks completely different from striated heart muscle
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Speaker A
tissue. Even in the first year of medical school in any hisystologology course, students are taught about distinguishing the different tissues of the human body. Being unable to distinguish bacterial contamination from an organized tissue means a failing grade. In this case, it was as if an
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Speaker A
airline pilot with 30 years of experience were accused of being unable to teleport a runway from a potato field when landing his plane. Turning to fraud, fraud can't explain the interpenetration of the muscle fibers with a host since fraud would require
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Speaker A
just placing tissue on top of the host or putting it within the perforation in the host or within a perforation in the host. The only remaining option is to accuse those two professional pathologists enjoying excellent public reputations with fraud. Like they're
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Speaker A
basically like they're basically just like what? Liars. They're liars. Not plausible. Not plausible. So, okay. So like you dear naturalist, you dear Protestant orthodox can like just divine from the armchair. Maybe once again like you you've been diving a lot of divining
482:23
Speaker A
from the armchair these this time that these guys are just liars, right? And again and again it's like it's also not at all clear how fraud explains the ongoing preservation of the host in the tissue. And again there's no independent
482:32
Speaker A
evidence for a fraud. Let me repeat that. There's no independent evidence for a fraud. And as a general rule of thumb, we shouldn't accuse people of being frauders without independent evidence. Okay, onwards to Legitza.
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Here's Dr. Barbara Angel, a cardiologist on the Legitza Ecclesiastical Committee. Um she'll come up later. These are a bunch of reporters around her. 5 years after the Sakulka miracle in 400 miles away, another eucharistic phenomena occurred in Legitza, Poland. During the
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Speaker A
first Christmas morning mass of 2013, at sanctuary of St. Hyen, St. Hyasin, a consecrated host fell on the ground. The priest placed the host in a chalice filled with tap water and left it in the tabernacle to dissolve. On January 5th,
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Speaker A
2014, Father Andres Joyra went to check on the host. He reported his discovery. Immediately, we noticed that the host had not dissolved and that a red spot covering a fifth of its surface appeared. We decided to inform the
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bishop who established a special theological scientific commission to analyze the event. Over the next two weeks, the rest of the host dissolved in the water and only the red portion remained. See the pictures below documenting the changes over time. On
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Speaker A
February 10th, this red material was placed onto a corporal cloth and left to dry. 15 specimens were taken from this red tissue in the presence of witnesses with each step of the sampling process photographed. Control samples were also
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prepared from both non-consecrated bread and consecrated host from the same production batch as the host that had developed the red tissue. The Institutes of Forensic Medicine at two Polish universities, Roclaw Medical University and Pomeranian Medical University studied these samples. Roclan Medical
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Speaker A
University ruled out the presence of bacteria and fungi and deemed the turning of the bread into host tissue scientifically inexplicable. A lab report from Pomeranian Medical University identified the tissue as human heart muscle. And here here's actually an excerpt from the Pomeranian
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Speaker A
Medical University in Suchin issued to the Dascese of Legitza. Again, this is just an excerpt of the conclusions from the Legitza report that uh the Primary Medical University in Setchin gave. So the institute of forensic medicine at PUM in section has received a request to
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Speaker A
conduct research on histological material from the church of St. Heisen in Legitza. The material was provided by Dr. Barbara Angel and father Andres Zumbra. Conclusions the material on hisological slides stained with hematoxin and the material that was cut
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Speaker A
from the block. We evaluated hystopathologically. The results of the hisystopathological examinations indicate that the sample tissue fragment had undergone farreaching analytic changes. The preserved fragments of muscle fibers show features of fragmentation. These features of fragmentation are very common in cardiac
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Speaker A
muscle but are also found in skeletal muscle. The connective tissue elements show a high degree showed a high degree of autotoysis but also constitute a structural element of both the heart and skeletal muscles. The hisytological image of the material shows a transverse
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Speaker A
striated muscle. The overall image of the hystopathological slides is most similar to cardiac muscle in which the muscle fibers are fragmented. The fragmentation of muscle fibers that occurs in the overload of cardiac muscle is often accompanied by the effects of
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myioardial hypoxia or ventricular fibrillation in the case of myioardium. Changes of this type in the case of cardiac muscle are often accompanied by agony. In this figure we have a fragment of striated muscle fiber with visible fragmentation. Here we have another
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Speaker A
piece of the material with visible fragmentation. Dr. Barbara Angel, head of the cardiology department at the provincial specialist hospital in Lgnitza, was a member of the ecclesiastical committee overseeing the investigations. She discussed the finding in an interview with Oliver B
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Speaker A
from a French newspaper present in December 2016. Bolt, I read that two research organizations have studied this host angle. In fact, not all the scientists and organizations that initially participated in the study agreed to give an opinion. Many
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Speaker A
withdrew, citing various reasons after learning the origin of the sample. So these places were blinded. In the end, two organizations issued a scientific opinion. These are the Institute of Forensic Medicine in Roclaw and the Institute of Forensic Medicine in
485:32
Speaker A
Setchin. Do those who withdrew question nature of the matter? Angel, no. They agree that it was myioardial. No, they agreed that it was myocardial heart muscle tissue.
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Speaker A
But when told where this fragment came from, they refused to write an opinion. Angel continues, "The samples were taken by the Institute of Forensic Medicine in Broka. The whole procedure was recorded, documented, and described. The inst the scientists when taking the samples
485:50
Speaker A
filmed and photographed everything. The collection of samples for analysis was done in an absolutely professional manner. Then the procedures carried out in the laboratories of this institute were in turn documented. Each sample has been properly isolated, described, packaged, transported, etc. In
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Speaker A
scientific circles, the procedure followed. Did not raise any questions. Here we have some photographs from their um documentation. This is the red color.
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Speaker A
This is the red color appearing on the host while it was dissolving in water.
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Speaker A
The red portion detached from the host a few days later. After 2 weeks, the host almost completely dissolved while the red tissue remained. The tissue was removed from the water and placed on a cloth for later analysis. Here you can
486:18
Speaker A
see the tissue here. So, Dr. Saraphini was able to get access to even higher quality photos than the um the Pomerini report earlier. Um, well these I mean these are the same photos but he was able to get access to those same photos
486:28
Speaker A
in much higher resolution. So here are the mioardial fibers from the December 2013 like meets a miracle with clear evidence of fragmentation again like dude I have eyes. Are you going to say that that's a bacteria? Are you going to say that's a bacteria? Are
486:39
Speaker A
you willing to bet your soul on the hypothesis that that's a bacteria or or a fungi? Are you going to say that? You want to say that? You want to look at that and say that? And here's the
486:45
Speaker A
miraculous tissue exposed at St. Heights Church in Legitza. Here's some additional notes. Like bonosy blows, sampling procedures took place in the presence of witnesses and were photographically documented step by step. Control samples were set up with non-consecrated hosts, wine, and tap
486:57
Speaker A
water. Histoological images from the ports indicate strided fragmented muscle fibers and can be independently corroborated by lay people. Again, I have eyes. I've looked at those. Those clearly aren't bacteria or fungi. Again, I have eyes. Testing with iminohistochemical markers was negative,
487:09
Speaker A
probably because of significant degradation and the University of Roclaw determined that the tissue was not bacteria. They also determined it was not fungi. They used groc silver stain for fungi yeast, allergy, and spores.
487:18
Speaker A
That was negative. DNA profiling analysis from the University of Roclaw did not amplify. Though Saraphini writes that quote, "Different his hystopathological analytical methods were used at seetin and another DNA detection attempt was made. In summary, the following was demonstrated.
487:28
Speaker A
Fragments of nuclear mitochondrial DNA were found that were sufficient to prove the human origin of the tissue beyond doubt." And and in any event, the same responses I gave in the case of Tikla show that the negative DNA amplification
487:37
Speaker A
results for roglaw don't don't count against the miracle hypothesis. And Saraphene and Sarapheneia at least reports that again fragments of nuclear and mitochondrial DNA were found that were sufficient to prove the human origin of the tissue beyond doubt.
487:48
Speaker A
So once so once again bacterial or fungal contamination has been decisively refuted and it also you know that also and you know the bacterial or fungal contamination hypothesis would also at least have to explain the preservation in St. Tyson's church
488:02
Speaker A
that would be another explanatory task or burden that they would have to take on. And that of course yet again leaves the naturalist with fraud. So you guys are just like like all these different frauds in different continents doing
488:12
Speaker A
different people different decades like hm once again there's no independent evidence for fraud this is just a desperate ad hoc conspiracy theory to explain away the evidence but the fraud hypothesis is also just implausible for a variety of reasons the investigators
488:25
Speaker A
diocese and Dr. angle were forthcoming about negative results and the challenges they faced. The sampling procedure from the host was recorded and in front of witnesses. The implausibility we have the implausibility of somehow like obtaining suffering human mocardial tissue. What
488:38
Speaker A
you going to like kill a human and steal their heart while they're in agony?
488:42
Speaker A
It won't and it won't do and it won't do to say that they just purchased a mioardial infuction slide to send the laboratories since the microscope slides were quote prepared in Roclaw unquote and a and a quote parapin preserved
488:52
Speaker A
fragment of original of original material was forwarded to setin unquote and set's report notes the receipt of quote histological material unquote not the receipt of a pre-existing slide maybe maybe you'll say that the lab maybe you'll say that the lab reports
489:04
Speaker A
are fabricated but you know that would just be an extremely risky and bizarre choice if on the part of the investigators since the investigators and dascese literally publicly promulgated the laboratory reports in support of the miracle in front of a
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Speaker A
bunch of reporters. Finally, on to Buenosiris Argentina 1996. Buenosis, Argentina, Monte Vido Uruguay, Brazil, Braasil Braasilia Brazil.
489:27
Speaker A
So, here is um Dr. Frederick Zuggie. He'll come up later. He's the chief medical examiner of Rockland County, New York, and adjunct associate professor at Colombia who examined the host from Bonosiris at St. Mary's Church in Bonosiris, Argentina. consecrated host exuded a reg
489:40
Speaker A
substance on three occasions in 1992, 1994, 1996. We'll focus on the 1996 phenomenon since a sample from this event was one studied most extensively.
489:46
Speaker A
On August 18th, 1996, a parishioner found a discarded host on a candle holder and brought it to a priest who immersed it in water and locked it in a tabernacle. 8 days later, a red substance that resembled blood clots was
489:55
Speaker A
discovered in the water along with a dissolving host. After a month in tap water, this red substance was transferred to a bottle of distilled water. So, they put it in a bottle of distilled water. 3 years later, after
490:04
Speaker A
being submerged in distilled water in 1999, Dr. Castinon, the same clinical psychologist who studied the tixla phenomena phenomenon became interested investigating the eucharistic events at St. Mary's Church. The Archbishop of Buenos Cyrus approved his request to start an investigation that would
490:15
Speaker A
document the sampling process and chain of custody. On October 5th, 1999, TV cameras showed Dr. Cassinon taking a sample from the 1996 event in the presence of notary witnesses. So, we have we have a photo of him taking a
490:25
Speaker A
sample in the presence of notary witnesses and putting in a test tube, labeling the test tube. Again, again, recall that the tissue had spent year three years immersed in distilled water.
490:35
Speaker A
The sample was taken to a number of different scientists. I'll talk about that in a second. They had a string of misidentifications. I'll talk the sample was taken to a number of different scientists. I'll talk about that in a
490:43
Speaker A
moment. The final scientist they consulted was uh Dr. Frederick Zuggabe. The chief medical examiner of Rockland County, New York. Dr. Zubie Dr. Zugabe was not told of its origins until he had analyzed the slides and given his opinion. He concluded that the sample
490:56
Speaker A
contained cardiac tissue and declared the following in a letter. Again, we also have pictures from it. So we have a sample from the bonus host showing cardiac V fibers with significant degeneration and an influx of white blood cells. And here's the host
491:06
Speaker A
publicly venerated at the church of St. Mary. So Dr. Zugabe in his signed letter says the following. The slide consists of cardiac heart tissue that displays degenerative changes of the mioardial tissue or cardiac muscle tissue with loss of striations nuclear picnosis
491:17
Speaker A
aggregates of mixed inflammatory cells consisting of aggregates of chronic inflammatory cells macrofasages which are the prominent cells admixed with smaller numbers of acute inflammatory cells white blood cells primarily polymorphonuclear lucasytes. When I was later told that the heart tissue was
491:30
Speaker A
kept in tap water for about a month and transferred to sterile distilled water for 3 years, I indicated it would be impossible to see white blood cells or macrofasages in the sample. Moreover, it would be impossible to identify the
491:37
Speaker A
tissue per se as there would be no morphological characteristics. Flesh would completely decompose in water after 3 years and white blood cells cannot survive in distilled water. Their survival here is scientifically inexplicable. Here, as in here, as in
491:49
Speaker A
Poland, a reddish substance is found on a host left to dissolve and eventually identified as cardiac muscle under the microscope. So here's the tissue of the 1996 Bonosyus miracle stored in distilled water. At the at the time that
491:59
Speaker A
it was sampled by Dr. Caston 3 years after the event, we have pictures of the samples of the 1996 Bonosirus miracle.
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Speaker A
The mioardial fibers display degenerative changes, fragmentation, loss of striations, spiknotic nuclei, and considerable infiltration by inflammatory cells, macrofase and neutrfil lucasytes. Again, like I can look at this, I have eyes. It's not like bacteria, you know, where's the
492:19
Speaker A
flegellum? like this is is this is it's not rod-shaped bacteria or like spore-shaped fungi or something.
492:25
Speaker A
I have eyes. Bacterial or fungal contamination has been refuted. You have been refuted if you believe that. Before they went to Dr. Zuggabi, I'll trace the whole chain of custody and whatnot um before they go to eventually to Dr.
492:35
Speaker A
Zugabe. But um the first scientist who examined it was Dr. Lawrence. They went to his laboratory and they filmed what he showed on the slides that he himself prepared of the sample that was forwarded to him by Forensic Analytical
492:47
Speaker A
Laboratory that they initially sent the sample to. And he's literally pointing out on the slides like white blood cells in front of them. And like again, you can look at the images and compare them with textbook images of myioardial
492:59
Speaker A
inffection patients. And it's like it look almost exactly alike. The pres and of course the preservation of intact white blood cells and morphological characteristics while submerged in distilled water for 3 years is naturalistically inexplicable. Distilled water would utterly destroy the tissues.
493:12
Speaker A
Let alone the fact that you know there's suffering by a cardinal tissue found in a host after a Catholic priest prays over it. Fraud is not plausible. The sample was collected on camera and in front of notary witnesses. We still have
493:21
Speaker A
recordings of it. Forensic Analytical received the sample material and qualitatively describes it just as seen in the video where the sample was collected. They describe it as being like a brownish reddish material labeled. The vial is labeled just as it
493:33
Speaker A
was in the video itself of them collecting the samples. Forensic Analytical sent the remaining histological material directly to Dr.
493:39
Speaker A
Lawrence. That's a guy up here who pointed out the white blood cells as they stated in their official report.
493:44
Speaker A
and Lawrence fixed the slides that all the subsequent scientists would examine, including Zugabe. So, notice Forensic Analytical did not receive a slide that the investigators purchased and sent off. So, the investigators would have had to like what? Beat someone on the
493:56
Speaker A
chest or like wait for them to have a heart attack and then like carve into their chest and steal a bit of heart tissue with the white blood cell influx.
494:02
Speaker A
Like, it's absurd. Okay, so let's go on to um some objections and further points because going to the objections will lead to some greater clarifications and um also qualifications that I want to make on this case. Okay, so the first objection
494:14
Speaker A
is of course once again they're going to be like the DNA failed to amplify. The DNA failed to amplify. Look at the forensic analytical report. The forensic analytical report tried to amplify DNA and the DNA failed to amplify. But
494:24
Speaker A
again, first bacterial and fungal contamination here have been ruled out. I can look at those pictures. I have eyes. You're relying on me like not not even looking. And so that leaves the naturalist with fraud. But the fraud
494:34
Speaker A
hypothesis doesn't predict any better than the miracle hypothesis that the DNA would fail to amplify. If the failed DNA amplification is surprising under the miracle hypothesis because you know we should expect white blood cells and like and heart tissue etc to contain
494:47
Speaker A
amplifiable DNA. The same is true for the fraud hypothesis. We should expect artificially placed white blood cells or heart tissue to contain amplifiable DNA too. We have very good reason to think those were present in the sample. So
494:58
Speaker A
it's equally surprising under the fraud hypothesis that they didn't amplify. So this is not discriminatory evidence against the miracle hypothesis. And second, there are reasonable explanations for why the amplifications fail that don't impug the case of the miracle. again tissue degradation
495:09
Speaker A
autotosysis and once again we can point to the hiddenist model to um dent the puditive evidential force of this but again I think those first two points just completely suffice to refute the objection some have objected that forensic analytical found no known
495:22
Speaker A
morphological characteristics you can read their official report we still have it and they say we found no known morphological characteristics um we received the sample we found no known morphological characteristics we did the DNA amplification it failed to amplify
495:32
Speaker A
and then we sent it to um Dr. Lawrence, but this is a very poor objection.
495:36
Speaker A
Forensic Analytical, as they say, they used a stereo microscope. My dude, Dr. Lawrence used a compound light microscope. A stereo microscope has a typical magnification magnification of around 10 times to 40 times. It's designed for viewing larger opaque 3D
495:51
Speaker A
objects. It's excellent for like insects and plant parts, small mechanical parts, and tissue surfaces, but it does not have enough magnification or resolution to clearly visualize individual cells like white blood cells. You might see a smear or a haze, but not distinct
496:03
Speaker A
cellular morphology. By contrast, a compound like a microscope has a typ typical magnification of 40 times to 1,000 times. It uses transmitted light. It's designed for viewing thin, transparent specimens. This is what you use to see individual blood cells, white blood cell
496:17
Speaker A
morphology like nucleus shape, granules, etc., bacteria, hisystological slides. White blood cells are routinely examined under compound microscopes in medical labs. This would ordinarily be a complete routine analysis for someone like Dr. Lawrence. Okay, next objection.
496:30
Speaker A
What about the string of divergent expert judgments? Didn't they just test into compliance? Like, didn't the investigators just like repeatedly seek out different investigators until they got the investigator who gave them the verdict that they wanted that it was
496:41
Speaker A
like myioardial tissue? So, okay. So, how do we respond to this? Well, we have a string of scientists who misidentified the sample. We know the number, names, and identifications of scientists consulted. Here are the facts. Dr. Dr.
496:52
Speaker A
Casinon and his team members Mike Willis and Rondorio Vitter recorded in the presence of many notary witnesses the sampling of biological material from the original relic which was kept locked away by the parish until then. They placed them in a labeled vials in front
497:03
Speaker A
of the public and torero personally handed them to forensic analytical laboratory. The official laboratory report gave a qualitative description of the material in the vials that exactly matches what can be seen in the video of the sampling process and the laboratory
497:14
Speaker A
gives the same name or names as those written in the video in the sampling process. Forensic Analytical then does DNA analysis which fails to amplify and it uses low powered stereo microscope to look at like the qualitative features of
497:24
Speaker A
it and then they find no known morphological characteristics. This is from their official report. Forensic analytical in their official report states that they shipped the material directly to Dr. Robert Lawrence as requested. Dr. Robert Lawrence prepared the slides that each subsequent
497:37
Speaker A
scientist would examine. We have video footage of him examining the slides and pointing out the influx of visibly obvious white blood cells that match images thereof in standard anatomical pathology textbooks. Dr. Dr. Lawrence suggested that the sample was inflamed
497:48
Speaker A
skin cells infiltrated by white blood cells. The same slides were then shown to three Australian scientists, Dr.
497:53
Speaker A
Peter Ellis and Dr. Thomas Ly who identified the sample as skin cells and Dr. John Walker who found it difficult to identify but thought it might be muscle tissue. The team that is Caston, Tesserero and Willisy then showed
498:02
Speaker A
pictures of the slides informally to Dr. Lenoli who also found it difficult to identify but suggested the sample may be myocardial tissue. Finally, the slides were taken to Dr. Zuggabi the only trained cardiologist consulted who recognized without difficulty
498:15
Speaker A
immediately the mioardial nature of the sample. Dr. Lawrence later emphatically retracted his initial identification expressly stating in public that he mis misidentified the sample and that it was inflamed cardiac tissue. And cardiologist Dr. Saraphini has looked at histological images and confirmed their
498:29
Speaker A
cardiac nature. This string of misidentifications is not particularly evidentially damaging to the miracle hypothesis for several reasons. First, fraud or misidentification equally poorly explain this datam. None of the experts identified the sample as bacterial or fungal. So that hypothesis
498:43
Speaker A
does even worse on the expert testimony score than the miracle hypothesis. Any sufficiently specific fraud hypothesis will likely do equally poorly. Is it skin cells? Well, then we need to explain how Zugabe Lenoli later Lawrence and people like Dr. Saraphini
498:56
Speaker A
definitively reject this hypothesis. Is it heart muscle tissue? Well, then we need then we need to explain the initial misidentifications as skin cells. Is it something else? Well, then we once again have a repeated string of improbable misidentifications. Second of all, we
499:06
Speaker A
have totally reasonable explanations for why the earlier scientists would mistakenly identify the sample as can be readily confirmed by looking at the images. And as cardiologist Dr.
499:14
Speaker A
Saraphini has confirmed, several of the characteristic features of normal, not extremely stressed heart tissue were missing. There were there was loss of striations, fragmentation, loss of centralized nucleation and an influx of white blood cells. These are all abnormal features for myioardial tissue
499:29
Speaker A
and those earlier scientists were not specialists in cardiopathology or cardiology or anything else heart related. It is not surprising that people who aren't experts in what hearts look like in a dying, agonizing, abnormal condition with abnormal loss of
499:42
Speaker A
striations, abnormal fragmentation, abnormal decentralized nuclei, abnormal influx of white blood cells would not correctly identify the sample. Also, this goes against the fraud hypothesis because like if these investigators, Rontoro, Mike Willisy, Ricardo Castinon Gomez, if they knew they had heart
499:56
Speaker A
muscle tissue, why are they going to these people who don't know about cardiology when evidently they had access to Dr.
500:04
Speaker A
Because of this confluence of abnormal features, the slides do not look like classic images of normal healthy cardiac tissue in anatomical pathology textbooks. The miracle hypothesis therefore has a totally plausible explanation of for the string of misidentifications. And these points are
500:19
Speaker A
further strengthened by the fact that some of the earlier experts admitted directly or indirectly that identification was difficult including Walker and Lenoli.
500:27
Speaker A
And again, we have an explicit public admission from Dr. Dr. Lawrence on February 28th 2008 that he made a mistake in his ident in his original identification expressly acknowledging that the tissue was definitely inflamed myioardium. Third of all and again most
500:38
Speaker A
importantly we can independently check that what Lawrence at all examined under the microscope looks exactly like tissue slides from myioardial infarctions. One of which was included, you know, in the earlier images that I attached. Like you and I, we can tell rod-shaped bacteria
500:53
Speaker A
from what's in those histoological images. And they're also not like lemon shaped or teardrop shaped or spiky or segmented spores. And most importantly, it is an insult to the intelligence of Dr. Saraphini, Dr. Zuggaby, Dr. Lawrence to suggest that they can't tell bacteria
501:03
Speaker A
or fungi from inflamed white blood cell infused mioardial tissue. And again, I just want to emphasize it can be externally independently corroborated that the tissue slides that the scientists themselves examined look exactly like tissue slides from myioardial inffections. They show that
501:20
Speaker A
they show the same fragmentation, the same loss of striations, nuclear nuclei decentralization, white blood cell influx. And fourth, and finally, even if we have doubts about the exact nature of the sample, so long as any white blood cells are present, which we have
501:32
Speaker A
explicit affirmations of from multiple trained professionals and no denials of from any of the consulted scientists, that alone is naturalistically inexplicable after years of subversion in distilled water as explained. Again, I just want to hammer home, explain the
501:46
Speaker A
data. Explain the data. I wish we didn't have a string of misidentifications. I wish we had better evidence. I wish we had like, you know, laboratory reports for Bueno Zyus, etc. I mean we do have like you know a signed report from Dr.
501:57
Speaker A
Zugabe about his examinations but listen we have to work with the evidence that we do have even if it's imperfect as it is in this case. So what's your explanation of the facts? Like you can complain about inadequate methodology of
502:08
Speaker A
acquiring expert judgments and like those complaints have some force. They have some legitimacy. I agree.
502:13
Speaker A
Inadequate methodology. I agree. But we have their judgments and we have photographic and videoraphic evidence demonstrating what they looked at under the microscope and that can be independently corroborated to look basically exactly like myioardial inffections. Like you're just refusing
502:28
Speaker A
to explain the data and relying on me not looking at what is right in front of me. So again, stick your neck out. Do you think that's bacteria or fungi? Go to the pictures. You think that? Okay.
502:36
Speaker A
And then one final objection. And this objection is is ultimately like the reason why I put this last. So like it is this objection together with like the string of misidentifications which makes me think that this is the least
502:46
Speaker A
evidentially probative among the five cases that I've gone through. And that's why I've put it last among the five. I still think it's pretty probable that a miracle occurred here. But um I think the other four cases are stronger. This
502:57
Speaker A
is the least strong of the five cases. But again, as I said, I still think it's pretty probable that a miracle occurred here. But anyway, this other objection is something that um tempers my confidence to some extent as well. So,
503:06
Speaker A
let's get on to this objection. What about Tesserero altering the forensic analytical report? Well, well, this is the reason why I think this is the weakest of the five cases. Still, I think Matthew Levvenia has a forceful reply. So, let's just read Matthew
503:16
Speaker A
Levvenia's reply. So, it turns out that there's um one version of the forensic analytical report that's in Dr. Dr.
503:21
Speaker A
Ricardo Cassinon Gomez published work and then there's like a mildly different version of the putitively the same forensic analytical report in uh Ron Tesserero's published work which Ron Tacero published much later and some atheists like skeptic have recently
503:35
Speaker A
argued for a fraud on Terro's part because according to her Toro modified the original forensic lab report in his book unseen copying and pasting the signature she writes for those who grew up in an era of digital signatures the
503:44
Speaker A
fact that two signatures are identical might not seem that unusual but in 1999 important documents were always printed and signed by hand you didn't get two signatures with the period periods on the initials uh appearing exactly the same page. Identical signatures
503:54
Speaker A
appearing on two otherwise different documents. Strongly suggests that at least one version has had the signature added digitally which was not a accepted practice in 1999. Now uh this is Matthew Levana writing I agree with her that is
504:06
Speaker A
probable that document was modified and that the signature was added digitally. However, this was not done in 1999.
504:11
Speaker A
Terres presumably did it when he wrote his book unseen the true story of the miraculous events in Bonosirus published in 2018. He likely removed some irrelevant parts of Dr. Gomez's original document such as the 1992 sample and copy pasted the signature. Even skeptic
504:22
Speaker A
grants that Castion Gomez has the original document. She writes at that point there's a clear change in the font and resolution of Tesero's document that makes it appear that it's been retyped which would suggest that Caston is is
504:31
Speaker A
the is the original. Now one can of course criticize this kind of practice and I myself Joe I would criticize this practice like you you shouldn't be doing that. You should at least note that like hey I removed let's say the 1992 sample
504:41
Speaker A
portion uh and I repasted the um or maybe you don't even repaste it. You just like you take off the signature.
504:48
Speaker A
However, however, writes Matthew Levmana. This does not in any way imply that all the three investigators were fraudsters attempting to stage the most elaborate miracle hoax in history. Mike Mike Willisy is completely uninvolved in this matter and Casio Gomez has
504:58
Speaker A
published the original forensic lab report without any alteration. He only referred to pages one and four because these are the only pages relevant to the 1996 sample. Hence, skeptics should not complain that pages 2, three, and five are missing. These they are simply
505:09
Speaker A
irrelevant to the 1996 miracle case and concern other unrelated samples. This is simply not enough to overcome the argument arguments against the fraud hypothesis. We need to keep in mind the crucial fact. The forensic analytical lab report does nothing to support the
505:22
Speaker A
miracle claim. Right? On the contrary, it mentions negative results for DNA and it says no known morphological characteristics were identified. Like why would a team of fraudsters attempt to fabricate such a report and present it to the public when it does nothing to
505:33
Speaker A
pres present their own case and in fact just shows negative results. Like oh yeah, I fabricated this report. Here's the negative results that don't support my hypothesis. Like what?
505:41
Speaker A
is far more plausible that you know fraudsters would have remained silent or embarrassed and even suppressed the report if it gave negative results or if they're going to fabricate things they're going to fabricate a positive report one that is like conducive to
505:52
Speaker A
what they want to promulgate right so again I do agree that this is like a bad practice on the part of Tesserero but just like dude evidentially speaking like yeah okay he removed some some stuff from like the samples from 1992
506:04
Speaker A
and then pasted his signature when he shouldn't have on a report that like doesn't even help his case where he's literally promulgating negative results that that go against what he's wanting to kind of argue.
506:15
Speaker A
The fraud hypothesis doesn't even seem to better predict this data. That's the point that I'm emphasizing, right? In order for this to be discriminatory evidence against the miracle hypothesis and in favor of fraud, the fraud hypothesis needs to like better predict
506:26
Speaker A
the data. But it's really not clear that that's the case here. But still, you know, I just have to be like completely honest with you. Um, this has taken me from being very confident that it was a miracle to like I I'll say it's very
506:35
Speaker A
probably miraculous instead of me going out and just saying, "Yeah, um, you know, the case here is like overwhelming." I'm not going to say that the case here is overwhelming, but I do think it's very probably miraculous based on all the information that we've
506:45
Speaker A
gone through. Oh, and by the way, there are a number of other very poor objections to eucharistic miracles that um, Tresenkos and other skeptics raise about Buenos Cyrus and a few of the other cases. They tend to focus on
506:55
Speaker A
Buenosiris um, because I think some of the other cases are seemingly unassalable. Um but uh but like you know see these resources for like extensive and successful responses to the objections from Matthew Levana and then my dialogue here on
507:08
Speaker A
Eucharistic miracles with a Protestant scientist that's linked in the resource document. And again like just like think like you want to go in for fraud for all of these cases. Five cases across centuries, decades across continents like across different investigators like
507:24
Speaker A
laboratories are involved like different priests are involved different investigators are involved. You're just going to posit fraud upon fraud upon fraud upon fraud upon fraud. Come on.
507:33
Speaker A
Come on. Even though in four cases out of the five, there's no independent evidence of fraud. And even in this fifth case for Buenos Cyrus, I don't think there's any good evidence for fraud. And even though, as I've actually
507:42
Speaker A
gone through, there are reasons to think that fraud didn't happen in the five cases. Okay, so let's get on to vindictory implications of eucharistic miracles. Now, like my dude, don't you just sense that eucharistic miracles are divine communication of the truth of
507:56
Speaker A
Catholicism? Like I don't know, maybe maybe this is just me, you know? Uh maybe this is just a personal thing, but like I don't know.
508:04
Speaker A
When I first came across these, when I read Saraphini's book, when I watched the debates um that Matthew Levan was in, when I started watching all of his videos, um I was like like I kind of knew that if I accepted these, it kind
508:15
Speaker A
of just it seemed like game over. Um so like don't you I at least had that sense. Now maybe that's not evidentially compelling if you don't have that just like direct sense. Um, but like maybe I can evoke it within you and I can also
508:29
Speaker A
just like develop various um arguments in favor of the conclusion. So like dude, a Catholic priest prays over some bread and then it becomes stressed heart muscle tissue. Like am I just supposed to continue on with my day and think
508:39
Speaker A
that there isn't anything particularly special about the Catholic priesthood of the Catholic Eucharist? Like I sometimes imagine talking with some of the Protestant reformers who like voseiferously fought against the Catholic view of the Eucharist as a propetary representation of Christ's
508:50
Speaker A
sacrifice. I imagine asking them like after we've internally debated scripture and church history like dude at this point what would convince you of the Catholic view of the Eucharist? To which the reformer might jokingly retort, ah well like maybe if a Catholic priest
509:00
Speaker A
prays over some bread and it literally becomes stressed, agonizing heart muscle tissue. Oh, and throw in some human blood, too. Oh, and make the tissue and blood the same rare blood type across multiple Eucharistic miracles. Oh, and make it the same blood type as the
509:12
Speaker A
shroud and the sudarium. Oh, and make the Eucharistic miracles happen repeatedly on at least five different occasions only in Catholic contexts and validated by scientists and laboratory reports. Then then I'll believe in the Catholic view of the Eucharist,
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including transubstantiation and the representation of Christ sacrifice at Calvary. Then I will know that Catholics have something special here. I mean like the Protestant reformer would be would be joking in that case because it seems like such an unrealistic demand which if
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satisfied would be basically overwhelming evidence. But like dude, it happened. It happened. And it's also highly striking, by the way, that like public well-ecaristic miracles only seem to occur in Catholic contexts. I haven't found a single public well-ec
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non-atholic eucharistic miracle. And you know, there's like that one embarrassing one with the Anglicans where it's just like a reflection of the light. But anyway, like call me when you guys have like multiple blinded laboratory analyses. And and also just like clearly
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Protestants and Orthodox would be capable of handing over miraculously transformed bread to scientists if such things happen in their parishes. They certainly have enough institutional structure for that sort of thing. And remember, God is involved here, not just
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humans. So to avoid giving a misleading impression that Catholicism was uniquely true, it would have been trivially easy for God to arrange for the scientific validation of Eucharistic miracle in a rival sect. And moreover, the Orthodox love miracles as do many Protestant
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denominations, you know, especially the Pentecostals. Also, Catholics adore and worship the Eucharist as it's Christ himself there, body, blood, soul, and divinity. Yet, it is idolatrous and seriously inappropriate to direct worship and adoration toward bread, right? Even if
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that bread symbolically represents something worshipw worthy, right? Compare. No one should worship a picture of Jesus. And you know, God so basically God is going out of his way to like facilitate idolatry. Are you kidding?
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Indeed, some Protestants with his view of the Eucharist often lampoon Catholics for idolatry precisely on this front. So under the proposal at hand, God is performing miracles that affirm or license or sanction or approve or particularly lead people into something
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idolatrous and seriously inappropriate. And that is not plausible, my friend. It's not plausible. And finally, of course, to state the obvious, the bread literally became actual flesh, simulating exactly the onlogical change of transubstantiation. Like, dude, just use like common sensical reasoning here.
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Like, miracles are meant to be signs to the faithful. You don't need to have like a 300 IQ to to like to respond to the, you know, to interpret to properly interpret the phenomena. Like, if you're going into like, oh, the demensive
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quantity of Aristotle is such that the prime matter and the like, no, you're missing the point. Miracles are science to the faithful. And you need like the common sensical reasoning here is, well, listen, Catholic Church says bread turns
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into flesh. Catholic priest praise over bread and it turns into flesh. So, Catholic Church is right. Like that's the common sensical reasoning. And other reasonings just seem like manifest coat by like the the 300 IQ person who's trying to be like, well, actually, I
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mean, technically, like I don't know if you ask me, it's patently obvious what God is communicating here. Okay, honors march to the fifth section. I hope I am just like continually stirring the cognitive dissonance in your mind. Let
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me begin this section by inoculating you against prohibitively low priors in demonic phenomena. So, first we've already seen basically decisive evidence for supernatural phenomena. So, you know, it shouldn't be too surprising if there's other phenomena that are naturalistically inexplicable. If
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miracles happen, it's not so surprising that maybe other naturalistic occurrences do too. Second of all, theism is very strongly motivated on independent philosophical grounds. And even if you disagree, theism does not have a prohibitively low or negligible prior.
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So, we so we should have a decent prior in theism before examining the evidence for demonic phenomena. Yet conditional on theism, it wouldn't be all that surprising that God might create demons.
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If God exists, it's hardly anticedently implausible that he would create a vast multitude of beings. Some merely vegetative, some sensient but nonrational, some rational and embodied like us, and others that are purely spiritual and vastly more intelligent than us. I mean, like, think of the gap
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between us and God, right? Like they got this really puny intellect here, and then there's just like this vast gap with God. Like, I don't know. Uh it seems like I don't know fitting that there might be like even higher like
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even hierarchies of intelligence above us uh conditional ontheism. Like why not? And I mean like it's good to create more good beings with whom God can share his life. It seems person perfectly reasonable that God might create many
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kinds of rational beings with whom he can share his life and who can enter into relationships with him and with one another for all of eternity. At least restricting ourselves to like the value of the created realm that can bring
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about like arguably infinitely more good if there are more creatures. if they're like more rational creatures with whom he can share his life for all of eternity.
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So, I don't know. At least if you ask me, it's not like too surprising conditional on theism that God might create these uh non-physical or immaterial angelic intellects. Nor is it very surprising conditional on God creating such beings that God might give
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them a genuine choice about whether to love and obey him rather than simply pre-programming them to love him. I mean, just as he's done with us, right?
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So, again, we've got that in our background information that like that's God's kind of modus operandi with respect to at least rational beings like us. And then those who abuse their freedom may very well abuse their freedom in other ways by negatively
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affecting us. After all, we already know that God gave us the ability to abuse our freedom and inflict suffering on others. So like I just think that even conditional on theism, it shouldn't be all that surprising. It may still be
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improbable, but not like prohibitively improbable, not negligibly improbable, that God might create angelic beings who then go on to be demons. Third, belief in the existence of demons and testimonial reports of their existence are panultural and span millennia. If
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there's extremely widespread belief in and testimonial reports of interactions with a class of beings, you shouldn't have a negligible prior in the existence of said beings. Now, let me next say that the church takes both science and patient privacy very seriously when it
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comes to demonic phenomena. Once again, I'll be drawing from St. Beluga's article, Speak of the Devil: Darkness Brought to Light. Demonic possession is not mental illness. Exorcisms are rare and selective. Exorcists conduct exorcisms for only a minority of cases
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in which they're consulted. Father Gro estimates that about 85% of people who come to him do not need an exorcist. And again, these are people who are seeking him out, who like have some kind of pre-existing problem that they think
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they might need an exorcist for. He's saying he turns away 85% of those people. For Father Thomas, only 10% of the people he saw had an issue of the diabolical. In the paper, Mastering the Devil Sociological Analysis of the
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Practice of Catholic Exorcist, Jeppe Jordan and Adam Pusami analyzed analyzed the 200page notes of an Italian exorcist and discovered that only 55 cases out of 1,075 initial consultations lead to the ritual of exorcism. That's about 5%. And again, these are people who are like
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going to him for like consultation thinking that they have some kind of problem. In the majority of cases, the person does not qualify for an exorcism because he or she does not display any definitive signs of possession. And
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psychiatric screening confirms psychological causes of erratic behavior. So they do psych physical and psychiatric screening beforehand.
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Although people who consult exorcists do so because they have already seen multiple doctors without relief.
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Catholic bishops often expect physical and psychiatric evaluations by qualified medical professionals before approving exorcisms, especially in the United States. I think it may even be required in the United States. I'd have to double check that though. Dr. Richard Gallagher
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explains we'll be introduced to Dr. Gallagher later. He's a psychiatrist on the faculty of Colombian NYU. Um the role of the psychiatrist is to make sure that these phenomena don't have a natural explanation before jumping to prednatural or supernatural one. There
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are many individuals for one reason or another in life that become psychotic briefly. They are delusional. They may well hallucinate and they are prone to think that God, the devil, the spirit, aliens are communicating with them and they really believe it. He's careful to
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look for organic causes of symptoms. For example, he describes performing lab testing, an MRI, and an EEG to rule out an underlying medical problem in a person reporting symptoms that could be interpreted as seizures or demonic attacks. All the medical testing was
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normal, and the patient symptoms improved after spiritual help. The church has strict privacy regulations on exorcisms akin to what is expected for medical patients in the healthcare industry. When I asked Father Gary whether I would be able to ever observe
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an exorcism, he replied, "Since you're not part of the deliverance or exorcism team, I cannot imagine a circumstance in which a priest exorcist or a team can allow you to witness these proceedings for several reasons. First, privacy of
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the person who is the subject of deliverance or exorcism. Second, liability that could expose the dasese parish or even the individual members of the team and priest deacon. Third, every person must be fingerprinted by the dascese in order to work with people who
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are vulnerable adults or minors. Even speaking with victims of possession who have been liberated is not always easy.
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I have had a number of media outlets who have contacted me over the years who were inquiring about interviewing some of the people whom I ministered. There again are privacy issues. It is a very embarrassing experience for someone to
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disclose both the ways the demonic become attached and the process of becoming liberated. even though it is highly evangelizing because of the freedom that the person experiences as well as for the family who often have suffered along with the person. The
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major emphasis on privacy also explains the lack of visible public video or photographic evidence for exorcisms. As father Gary explains, the forward to the right of exorcism specifically prohibits any recordings, audio or visual and any kinds of media from being used in the
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performance of solemn rights or deliverances by a priest exorcist or members of his team. So again, exorcisms are rare. Exorcists are explicit and emphatic that mental illness is much more common. Exorcists, at least in the United States, typically require medical
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and psychiatric tests before exorcisms. Exorcists also make no money in performing exorcisms. I repeat, they make no money in performing exorcisms.
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Finally, I initially had a very low prior in demonic phenomena, just like many of you listening. But I forced myself, I forced myself to read and listen to exorcists and those who assist the ministry to see if there's any
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evidential value in what they say. and I found it harder and harder to avoid the conclusion that either they're just completely making stuff up and lying in utterly outstanding proportions or they've genuinely seen manifestly prednatural phenomena. Given the sheer
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number content recency consistency and diversity of the testimonies, I'm very confident that honest mistakes is not a serious hypothesis for explaining the testimonial reports. You'll get a sense of this as we go through. So the naturalist is eventually forced to posit
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yet another conspiracy to add to their massive list of conspiracies that are just like conspicuously pointing in the direction of Catholicism. Okay. So here here's the broad picture before we get into the particular evidence. Um there is overwhelming cross-cultural
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independently converging direct eyewitness testimony across millennia to experiences of malicious spiritual entities and their predinatural effects.
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Tragic a German professor and polymath composed of luminous and detailed history with testimonies of this sort.
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CTK strike possession demoniacal and other uh among primitive races and antiquity of the middle ages and modern times on demonic phenomena. Skeptics often bring to the table ridicule, jeering, personal incredul. Whereas the believers have thousands of like independent, highly converging,
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contemporaneous multimodal direct eyewitness testimonies to naturalistically inexplicable phenomena. Direct eyewitness reports issue from all different quarters of the social hierarchy and from around the world.
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Doctors, civil authorities, hospital personnel priests lawyers exorcists and lay people of all sorts. The phenomena testified to are manifestally naturalistically inexplicable. People speaking extensively and fluently in languages they don't know. People having knowledge of events and information they
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couldn't possibly naturally know. Levitation, unnatural eye and facial morphological changes. For example, eyes instantly turning all black or all white or instantly changing into snake eyes, that is vertical slit pupils set in vivid green slanted irises. Unnatural strength, unnatural voices coming out of
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mouths, for example, multiple voices or voices while the person's mouth is gaping, etc. Extreme aversion to sacred and holy things like relics, holy water, and priests, even when those things are clandestinely used. Wounds and scratches instantaneously appearing on skin and
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sometimes spelling out messages. Objects flying across the room or moving across the floor without being propelled by any physical force. and much more besides.
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So let's just go through like an infotestimally small sample of these reports. Okay. 5.1 Julia. This is from Dr. Gallagher's 2008 article in New Oxford Review. Dr. Richard E. Gallagher, MD is a board-certified psychiatrist in private practice in Hawthorne, New York,
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and associate professor of clinical psychiatry at New York Medical College. He's also on the faculty of Columbia University. He is a feta cappa graduate of Princeton University. Woo! Go Tigers.
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Magnakum laad in classics and trained in psychiatry at the Yale University School of Medicine. Dr. Gallagher has seen tens of thousands of psychiatric patients in his practice and none of them has he ever suspected of demonic possession or
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influence. However, Dr. Gallagher has served as a professional psychiatric consultant for exorcists in the Catholic Church. And in those contexts, he has encountered a number of genuine cases of demonic possession. Dr. Joseph T.
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English, past president of the American Psychiatric Association, and Sydney E. Frank, distinguished professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at New York Medical College, wrote the following about Dr. Gallagher in the forward to Gallagher's book, Demonic Foes, which I would highly recommend. As
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his past academic chairman for many years, I can attest that Dr. Richard Gallagher is a multi-talented psychiatrist and a highly respected clinician who was also a valued teacher.
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He embarked on a serious scholy study long ago concerning the fascinating, if controversial, subject of suspected demonic possession. Contrary to widespread belief, such phenomena not only continue to be reported in today's world, but they still defy easy explanation of simplistically conceived
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medical or psychiatric disorders. Dr. Dr. Gallagher brings his trained intellect and unimpeachable integrity to bear on the investigation of such states of possession and has undoubtedly directly encountered more of these hard to explain and intriguing cases than any
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other physician. Hence, this book may well be unique in history, the serious treatment of a longdisputed topic by a superbly credentialed academic physician, a full professor of psychiatry who can accurately offer personally informed accounts of in painstaking detail of modern-day
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examples. Signed Joseph T. English, MD. In the aforementioned New Oxford Review piece, Dr. Dr. Gallagher documents a contemporary case of demonic possession, a substantial portion of which I have quoted below. This is a case that he personally worked with. Amid widespread
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confusion and skepticism about the subject, the chief goal of this article is to document a contemporary and clear-cut case of demonic possession.
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Even those who doubt such a phenomenon exists may find the following example rather persuasive. I present here a detailed summary of a present-day demonic possession. It is truly an obvious example of a genuine attack, at least to an objective observer. All the
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facts presented here are true and verifiable by the multiple and highly credible individuals involved in her care. For reasons of confidentiality, we will identify our subject with the pseudonym, and little incidental material is included. Julia is a middle-aged self-supporting Caucasian
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woman who lives in the United States. She first approached her local clergy on her own and was soon referred to an official priest exorcist who collaborated on this article to explore getting help. She herself was quite convinced from the start that she was
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being attacked in some way, a demon or Satan. During the course of her lengthy and thorough evaluation, she was eventually seen by this writer, a board-certified academic psychiatrist, who was asked to provide a medical and psychiatric opinion. Julia revealed a
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long disturbing history of involvement with explicitly satanic groups. She was in no way psychotic. In fact, she was consistently logical, highly intelligent, and even quite engaging at times, despite her obvious turmoil.
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Periodically in our presence, Julia would go into a trans state of a recurring nature. Mentally troubled individuals often dissociate. But Julia's transes were accompanied by an unusual phenomenon. Out of her mouth would come various threats, taunts, and scalical language. Phrases like, "Leave
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her alone, you idiot. She's ours. Leave you imbecile priest." Or, "Just leave." The tone of this voice differed marketkedly from Julia's own, and it varied. Sometimes sounding guttural and vaguely masculine, at other points high-pitched. Most of her comments
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during these transances or at the subsequent exorcisms displayed a marketked contempt for anything religious or sacred. When Julia came out of these transances, she strongly professed no recollection of these remarks or of having said anything at all. An experienced psychiatrist might
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well conclude that we were probably therefore dealing with a dissociative personality or more precisely even dissociative identity disorder elaborated on later. What quickly made this understandable hypothesis implausible, however, were several other peculiar though obviously related phenomena, but a sampling of which is
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covered here. Because of the complexity of this case, we assembled a team to assist. At varying points, this group comprised several qualified mental health personnel, at least four Catholic priests, a deacon and his wife, two nuns, both nurses, one psychiatric, and
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several lay volunteers. We made a number of phone calls to arrange gathering together to help Julia. Julia herself was not in on these phone discussions.
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She was far from the area at the time. Astonishingly, Julia's quote unquote other voice, again, sometimes deep, sometimes high-pitched, would actually interrupt the telephone conversations and somehow come in over the phone line.
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The voices would espouse the same messages. Leave her alone. Leave you idiots. Get away from her. She's ours.
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Julia again said later that she was unaware of any such conversation. Yet, this speech was heard distinctly by several of the team on a number of occasions. As mentioned earlier, even outside her trans, Julia unmistakably displayed psychic abilities. Sometimes,
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objects around her would fly off the shelves. Julia was also in possession of knowledge of facts and occurrences beyond any possibility of their natural acquisition. She commonly reported information about the relatives, household composition, family deaths, and illnesses, etc. of members of our
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team without ever having observed or been informed about them. As an example, she knew the personality and a precise manner of death that is the exact type of cancer of a relative of team member that no one could conceivably have
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guessed. She once spoke about the strange behavior of some inexplicably frenzied animals beyond her direct observation, though residing in another city, she commented, "So, those cats really went berserk last night, didn't they?" The morning after two cats in a
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team member's house uncharacteristically had violently attacked each other at about 2:00 a.m. As another example, Julia once described not only the actual surroundings, including the decor of his room, but the exact state of mind, skeptical and dismissive, of a priest
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peripherilally involved whom she had never met. The facts were subsequently precisely confirmed. Julia could also consistently depict from afar and with amazing detail the activity of one of the principal priests involved. She would repeatedly report from her disadvantage whether and when he was in
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pain he suffered from a recurring illness, often where he was, for example, walking on a beach and remarkably even what he was wearing at the time, for example, a windbreaker.
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Gallagher elaborates on this in his book. She calmly claimed that she could quote unquote see Father A in a blue windbreaker and khakis walking along the seashore. She had never visited his home and knew nothing of where he lived. I
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immediately called Father A on his cell phone and asked where he was and what he was wearing. I'm usually in the rectory at this hour, but decided to take a walk tonight. I'm saying my brevery along the shore in my khaki pants and a
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windbreaker. And and when Dr. Gallagher talks about this um in various YouTube videos, he's like, "And uh what color is the the windbreaker?" And the dude was like, "You're talking to Julia, aren't you?" And he's just like, "Just humor
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me." And he says, "It's blue." And Dr. Ger is like, "Bro." Rounding out the picture of this case finally were the happenings during the lengthy exorcism rituals that Julia herself requested. There were two series of such sessions separated by a period
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of time. The exorcism began on a warm day in June. Despite the weather, the room where the right was being conducted grew distinctly cold. Later, however, as the entity and Julia began to spout vitriol and make strange noises, members
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of the team felt themselves profusely sweating due to a stifling emanation of heat. The participants all said they found the heat unbearable. Julia at first had gone into a quiet translike state. After the prayers and implications of the Roman ritual had
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been going on for a while, however, multiple voices and sounds came out of her. One set consisted of loud growls and animallike noises which seemed to the group impossible for any human to mimic. At one point, the voices spoke in
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foreign languages, including recognizable Latin and Spanish. Julia herself only knows English, as she later verified to us. The voices were noticeably attacking in nature and often insolent, blasphemous, and highly scatological. They cursed and insulted the participants in the crudest way.
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They were frequently threatening, trying appeared to fight back, leave her alone, stop you, to the nuns, you'll be sorry, and the like. Julia also exhibited enormous strength. Despite the religious sisters and three others holding her down with all their might,
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they struggled to restrain her. Remarkably, for about 30 minutes, she actually levitated about a half a foot in the air. The presumptive target of the exorcism, the entity or entities that was possessing Julia, could also distinguish between holy water and
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regular water. She would scream in pain when the blessed water was sprinkled on her, but have no reaction to clandestine use of unbed water. During the ceremonies, she also, as previously, revealed hidden or past events in the lives of the various attendees,
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including information about deceased relatives completely unknown to her. While many other details could be added, the above sufficiently convey the general picture. And Dr. Gallagher in the piece goes on to articulate lots of different um mental illnesses and
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various other psychiatric phenomena that are sometimes confused with possession. He's like, "Yeah, I'm trained. I know exactly how to distinguish these." That doesn't make And it's like, you know, that doesn't make objects suddenly fly off the shelves or make you fluent in
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foreign languages or levitate for 30 minutes. Like, okay, like that. That's not something that those things can do, right? Now, add to the people who you can just divine from the armchair are lying straight through their teeth. You
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got to add to that. Dr. Richard Gallagher. 5.2. Robbie Mannheim, Roland Doe. From here, we're going to look at chapter 3 of Father Dr. Robert Spitzer's book, Christ Versus Satan, in our daily lives. Um, we also have a transcript of
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the contemporaneous diary of one of the lead exorcists extensively matterofactly reporting the manifestally supernatural demonic manifestations in this case. But let's go to chapter 3 of Father Dr.
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Robert Spitzer's book for a synopsis. The case of the possession and exorcism of the young man with the pseudonym Robbie Mannheim, also known as Roland Doe, took place in 1949.
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In early March, the first exorcism by a member of the Catholic clergy took place at Georgetown University Hospital. In early March, the first exorcism by a member of the Catholic clergy took place at at Georgetown University Hospital in
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Washington, DC. Shortly thereafter, beginning March 16th, a series of 30 exorcisms were performed by several members of the Catholic clergy. The exorcism was successfully completed on April 18th at the St. Alexius Hospital in St. Louis, Missouri. We do know the
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name of this person and people, you know, he he lived he tried to live a quiet life after this. Father Dr.
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Spitzer uses Thomas Allen's possessed, the true story of an exorcism as the primary source for his discussion.
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Allen's account of both the exorcism at Georgetown University Hospital and the second series of exorcisms is very well researched and documented. Those interested uh in a much more detailed account of them than the brief one given here will want to read this volume. The
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first exorcism at Georgetown University Hospital was performed by Father E. Albert Hughes from Mount Reneer, Maryland, which did not end successfully. There are three sources for this exorcism that Thomas Allen was able to procure and summarize. First, an
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interview by Allen with Father Frank Bober, Father Hughes's assistant pastor, who was told about the exorcism by Father Hughes. Secondly, notes taken by Father William Repeti SJ, who was a Georgetown University archist of a lecture given by Father Hughes at
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Georgetown University. Third, an interview with Father John J. Nicola, who had access to some of the secret archives, but was discreet about giving information on the Mannheim exorcism.
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There are also two primary sources for the facts surrounding the possession and second series of exorcisms. First, a diary kept by Father Raymond J. Bishop, SJ, who first witnessed events of possession during an initial visit to the family home in St. Lewis on March
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9th, 1949 and was present at events during the second series of exorcisms, assisting during the successful exorcism. And secondly, later testimony provided in an interview with Walter H.
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Howleran SJ, who was a Jesuit seminarian at the time, and who also assisted during the final exorcism. The interview was conducted by Allen for his book Possessed. So, we have an interview with an eyewitness. We have a contemporary
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diary kept by Father Raymond J. Bishop, SJ, who witnessed the events. We've got an interview with the dude who had access to some of the secret archives.
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We have notes taken by Georgetown University's archivist on a lecture given by one of the lead exorcists about the case. And we have an interview with the lead exorcist's assistant pastor who was told about the exorcism by the
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assistant pastor. There are two additional primary sources for the possession and exorcism which are not available to the public. First, a report given to the provincial of the Missouri province of the Jesuits and to the arch dasces of St. Louis by father William
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Bowurn SJ who was an associate pastor of college church at St. Louis unless university and the lead exorcist for the second series of exorcisms. Secondly, Father Howeran's witness report also given to the Missouri province of the Jesuits and to the arch dasces of St.
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Louis. These reports have been read by officials who indicated to Allen that they cited 40 witnesses to the possession and second series of exorcisms. The diary itself mentions 14 witnesses to them. Possession and exorcism of Robbie Manheim is one of the
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most detailed accounts of a full possession available to the public. Though Richard Gallagher's account of Julia has the advantage of being witnessed by very credible psychiatrists and other scientific professionals, Gallagher's promise of confidentiality about Julia's case prevented him from
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relating the kinds of details explicitly mentioned in Father Bishop's diary and the other sources of Robbiey's possession and two series of exorcisms, the latter of which included 30 recitations of the full Roman ritual.
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There can be little doubt that the substantial paranormal demonic phenomena exhausting virtually every indicator of demonic possession indicates a demonic spiritual cause of Robbiey's acute condition. The following brief summary will make this clear. The description of the events surrounding Robbie Manheim's
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possession may be divided into two parts. First, the paranormal demonic phenomenon manifested before the beginning of the second series of exorcisms March 16th, 1949. These include events that took place in Robbiey's home in Cottage City, Maryland at Georgetown University Hospital by
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Father Hughes during the first failed exorcism and after the family moved to St. Louis, as well as the phenomena manifested in St. Louis at the home of Robbiey's Lutheran and Catholic relatives. Second, the series of 30 exorcisms beginning March 16th, 1949,
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which includes events that took place at Robbie's relatives homes, the rectory of College Church in St. Louis University, the family home in Maryland during a short stay, and the Alexian Brothers Hospital in St. Louis, where the exorcism was successfully completed.
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Though most of the events described in part one leading up to the exorcism starting on March 16th, 1949, are described in the first seven pages of Father Bishop's diary, I relied heavily on Allen's book, Possessed, which fills out the details of these events with
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material he gleaned from the four additional sources mentioned above. The material from part two, the exorcisms after March 16th, 1949, is taken mostly from the diary cut by Father Bishop. It should be noted that though Father Bishop was the author of the diary, he
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referred to himself in the third person throughout it. One paranormal and demonic phenomena manifested in and around Robbie Manheim prior to March March 16th, 1949. Robbie Manheim, born June 1st, 1935, was the only child of a Lutheran couple residing in Cottage
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City, Maryland. Robbie Gulost's aunt Harriet, who was a spiritualist and regularly tried to make contact with the dead through a Ouija board and other occult means. Since Robbie was an only child who was not inclined towards sports or their activities outside the
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Speaker A
home, he associated regularly with his aunt, who taught him how to use the Ouija board during her frequent visits to the home. Robbie became proficient at using the Ouija board and began to make contact with spirits on his own. Though
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Speaker A
this may seem to be a harmless child's game, it is not. You are not supposed to use it. It is gravely sinful. It is very bad. On January 15th, 1949, when Robbie was 13 years old, paranormal activity began to manifest itself in the Manheim
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Speaker A
household. Dripping sounds could be heard without any known source, scratching and tapping beneath the floorboards led Robbiey's father to believe that there were rats in the house. Yet, none could be found. A picture of Jesus on the wall started
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Speaker A
shaking, almost as if the wall behind it were being pounded from the back, causing it to jump off the wall. The family was perplexed and becoming alarmed. On January 26th, 1949, and Harriet died, devastating Robbie. In order to make contact with her, he used
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Speaker A
his Ouija board, which caused the poltergeist activity to intensify. It also seems to have led the spirit of spirits initial invasion of Robbiey's body. First, squeaky shoes could be heard walking and marching next to his bed. The furniture began moving on its
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Speaker A
own. Then, a Bible, a pair, and an orange flew through the air. One day, in the midst of friends, Robbiey's heavy living room chair rolled up on one side and tipped over, causing Robbie to fall out of it and tumble onto the floor. All
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Speaker A
the adults tried to imitate this, but could not, and then a vase levitated and moved across the room, shattering against the wall. These phenomena were not limited to the Manheim household.
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Speaker A
The spirits seem to follow Robbie to school and elsewhere. Several times, Robbiey's desk would lurch into the aisle and begin skittering about, banging into other desks and causing school room uproar. Once when the family took a day off to visit with friends
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Speaker A
away from the infested house, beard again followed Robbie. During a conversation in the living room with family and friends, his rocking chair began to spin around like a top with its with his legs in the air, not propelled
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Speaker A
by any known physical force. All of these incidents, including the shaking and moving of Robbiey's bed, caused his parents to consult their Lutheran minister, then a pediatrician and a psychiatrist at the University of Maryland. Though their minister thought
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Speaker A
that something was highly unusual, he had difficulty believing that it could be demonic spirit. The pediatrician and psychologist did not see the phenomena for themselves and flat out disbelieved any of the reports from Robbie and his parents. The psychiatrist declared
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Speaker A
Robbie to be quote normal. The spirit then began to invade Robbie himself. At first, it would cause his bed to shake and his dresser to move across the room with all the drawers moving in and out.
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Speaker A
Robbie would go into a trance, cursing his parents and a grandmother with incredible profanity, words they were sure he did not even know. Scratches began to appear on Robbiey's body on his arms, legs, and chest. At first, long
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Speaker A
scratches, but eventually they began to spell out coherent words like hell. Finally, out of desperation, Robbiey's parents appealed once again to their minister, Reverend Luther Scholes, who decided he could help Robbie by inviting him into his house. This would enable
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Speaker A
him to see the phenomena for himself, and it deterred what kind of treatment might help the disturbed boy. He slept in another bed next to Robbie's in a guest room. Soon, Robbiey's bed began to shake, so Schultz got up and offered
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Speaker A
Robbie a cup of cocoa, after which they returned to the room. Schultz had Robbie sit in a heavy chair instead of lying in bed. The chair also began to shake, then moved across the floor to the wall and
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Speaker A
toppled over, throwing Robbie out of the chair onto the floor. Schultz tried to imitate the feet, but because of the chair's weight and lower center of gravity, he was unable to do so. He then decided that Robbie should sleep on the
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Speaker A
floor and on some blankets between the beds. At 3:00 in the morning, the blankets with Robbie on them as one unit began to glide across the floor. When the minister shouted, "Stop that!" that, Robbie and the blankets moved under the
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Speaker A
bed, then began to move up and down, propelling Robbiey's head into the springs under the bed, causing him to be cut. At this juncture, Schultz began to think that Robbiey's behavior was perhaps demonic possession. Schultz had no acquaintance with demonic possession.
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Speaker A
He could think of only one church where Robbie might be able to get some relief if indeed a demon was really present. He told Robbiey's parents, "You have to see a Catholic priest. The Catholics know about things like this." based. In late
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Speaker A
February, Robbiey's father called St. James Parish in Mount in Mount Reineer, Maryland, a short distance from Washington DC, and spoke with Father Hughes, who at the time was a young, inexperienced priest with little knowledge of possession and exorcism.
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Speaker A
According to Hughes, during their first meeting, the room turned cold. Robbie began to curse him, and the phone on Hugh's desk began to move. To give a bottle of holy water and two blessed candles to man, the manheims to take
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Speaker A
home with them for blessing and protection. When the manheims returned home, Robbiey's mother sprinkled the house with holy water and lit one of the candles, at which point the flame shot up, nearly hitting the ceiling, causing her to extinguish it before it set the
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Speaker A
house on fire. During the night, the holy water bottle was picked up, moved across the room, and smashed into the wall. Robbiey's mother called Father Hughes, and while on the phone with him, the table under the phone, lift off the
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Speaker A
ground, and smashed into a hundred pieces. At which point, Father Hughes decided to come to the Manheim House to see the phenomena for himself. Hughes visited the house, and according to one of his accounts, Robbie spoke fluent Latin, a language with which Robbie was
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Speaker A
not familiar, saying, "Long thing, oh priest of Christ, you know that I'm the devil. Why do you keep bothering me?" As a result, Hughes decided to ask his superior, Archbishop Patrick Oil, for permission to do an exorcism on Robbie.
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Speaker A
Oo granted permission to Hughes to do the exorcism, asking him to keep the details secret. Though Hughes had very little knowledge of exorcism, he decided that it had to be done in a hospital where Robbie was under restraints. In
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Speaker A
March 1949, he and the Manheim family enter Georgetown University Hospital where Robbie was placed in a special room in a bed with with restraints.
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Speaker A
As Hughes began the exorcism, the bed moved across the room on its own and slammed into the wall in full view of the nuns who were present. Scratchings began to appear on Robbiey's body, and he began to curse Hughes. Hughes,
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Speaker A
kneeling down by the side of the bed, did not notice that Robbie had slipped one of his hands outside of the restraints down the side of the bed and and unhinged a piece of the spring supporting the bed. As Hughes continued
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Speaker A
to pray, Robbie took the spring out and slashed Hughes's arm from his shoulder to his wrist. His blood saturated the cassic and surplus. Hughes discontinued the exorcism and required 140 stitches to close the wound in his arm. He
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Speaker A
suffered a breakdown, but then resumed pastoral difficulties, never fully beginning use of his arm. The first exorcism of Robbie had ended disastrously. Robbiey's mother, who was from St. Louis considered moving there to get away from the neighbors and to
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Speaker A
look into another course of action. Soon after, Robbie screamed out from his bedroom and when they rushed in, they saw the word Lewis scratched into his chest. So, the manheims left Maryland and went to St. Louis. While in St.
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Speaker A
Louis, the Manheims stayed at the home of Lutheran relatives who decided along with the consent and participation of the Lutheran minister to help Robbie by using a Ouija board to connect with Aunt Harriet. They received the message that
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Speaker A
Aunt Harriet was present in Robbie and the home. This this confirmation was followed by more shaking the bed, loud wrappings and violent disturbances to confirm Aunt Harriet's presence. These were witnessed by the Manheims relatives. The Manheims then moved to
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Speaker A
the home of their Catholic relatives on March 8th. While there, Robbie experienced some temporary peace, which caused his mother to think that the problem might be over. She discussed her with her relatives the possibility of sending Robbie back to school.
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Speaker A
Immediately after which, Robbie screamed out in pain and showed them his chest, which had the words, "No school scratched into it." That evening, the manheims decided to put Robbie in a room with his cousin Marty, who was about the
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Speaker A
same age because they got along so well. During the night, scratching noises could be heard in the mattress and throughout the room. The mattress began to flop violent with both boys lying on it in a trance. This convinced the
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Speaker A
manheims that a priest should be consulted. Robbie had an older cousin, Elizabeth, who was attending St. Louis University. She contacted her professor, Father Raymond Bishop, kept the diary throughout the second set of 30 exorcisms to talk about Robbiey's
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Speaker A
condition. Bishop was the head of the department of education at St. Louis University and a very logical scientific and spiritually sensitive man. He heard Elizabeth's story and suspected demonic possession, though he wanted to verify it. He consulted broadly with the Jesuit
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Speaker A
community who had several resources and then questioned the Manheim family about all the incidents that occurred prior to contacting him. He asked about the number of witnesses for each of the paranormal events, which he indicated a total of 14 witnesses. On March 9th,
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Speaker A
Bishop then went to the Manheim House to interview Robbie. During the interview, Robbie seemed to be normal. Afterward, Bishop blessed all the rooms in the house, giving a special blessing to the room in which Robbie was staying. Robbie
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Speaker A
went to bed and Bishop went down to consult with his parents. As he was about to leave, Robbie screamed and he went upstairs with the family members to see Robbiey's mattress moving and scratches welling up from underneath his
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Speaker A
skin. At this juncture, he had seen for himself that Robbiey's parents account of the paranormal demonic happenings were true. Father Bishop then enlisted the support of Father William, Father William Bowern. On March 11th, Bowder accompanied Bishop to the house to do a
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Speaker A
special blessing of Robbie with some relics from the college church. Bowder then became a witness to the paranormal phenomena. A relic of St. Margaret Mary was launched from Robbiey's pillow into a mirror in the room. Scratches of a
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Speaker A
cross appeared on Robbiey's arm. Violent shaking began at the mattress without any physical cause. A bookcase weighing approximately 50 lbs was turned around and moved into the entrance of Robbiey's room. A bottle of St. Ignatius Holy Water was thrown from a table 2 feet
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Speaker A
from Robbiey's room. At this point, Father Bow was convinced some kind of evil spiritual power was working in and around Robbie. On the following day, March 12th, Other's Bishop and Bowder returned at 11:45 p.m. to the house.
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Speaker A
While there, the bookcase moved from the wall in an arc of about 5 ft toward the side of Robbiey's bed. The priest stayed praying the rosary until 3:00 a.m.
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Speaker A
Between March 12th and March 16th, events at the house were relatively calm with intermittent movement of the stool in Robbie's room, launching the relic of St. Margaret Mary, shaking of the bed, and some other paranormal phenomena.
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Speaker A
Priests of the Jesuit community believed that they were morally responsible for helping Robbie and so they petitioned their superior for permission to begin an exorcism. The superior granted that permission on March 15th, selecting Father Bow to be the exorcist because
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Speaker A
Bowder seemed to be a very well-rounded spiritual man. Bow was to be assisted by Father Bishop, Mr. Walter Howeran, a Jesuit seminarian at the time, and Father William Van Roo. Other Jesuits assisted Bowder intermittently throughout the 30 exorcisms that
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Speaker A
concluded on April 18th around 10:45 p.m. The following details of the exorcisms of Robbie Vanheim beginning on March 16th at the home of his relatives in St. Louis, Missouri are taken directly from the diary of Father Bishop. On March 16th at Robbiey's
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Speaker A
relatives home in St. Louis, the exorcism began at 10:45 p.m. with Father Bowurn and Bishop as well as Mr.
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Speaker A
Howeran. Almost immediately, paranormal activity began. Howeran describes it as follows. The first night I was there, I was kneeling at the bed on which the boy was lying. And the bed started going up and down 8 in. And then I just about got
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Speaker A
hit with a holy water bottle that was sitting on the dresser and came flying across the room and just missed me by an inch or two. Nevertheless, Father Bowin helped Robbie examine his conscience and make an act of contrition. Other family
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Speaker A
members came up and made acts of faith, hope, love, and contrition. When Father Bow spoke the first Preipio, there was immediate action. Scratch lines started forming all over Robbiey's body on his arms, legs, and chest. The word hell
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Speaker A
emerged on Robbiey's chest and everyone agreed that the figure of the devil and the word hell could be no other word or figure. These scratch marks and brands hurt Robbie and were obviously not caused by him. He was in full view of
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Speaker A
the exorcism and the family. By the time he fell asleep, more than 25 different marks were made on his body, including the words go above his groin. They decided to move the exorcism into the rectory of the of the of college church
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Speaker A
at St. Louis University on March 23rd. As the exorcisms continued, Robbiey's violence increased significantly. He broke Mr. Howeran's nose and gave Father Vanvu, another Jesuit who assisted, a bloody nose. His language became more foul and more deviantly sexual. He
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Speaker A
claimed to see some of the priests in hell 8 years from the time of the exorcism. He barked and howled like a dog, then began to sing, then curse the exorcists. He would tear off his clothes and make obscene gestures and then break
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Speaker A
into very uncharacteristic sarcastic expressions. Interestingly, when he was out of his transes, he was totally fine with Catholic stuff. Um, another priest, Father Joseph McMahon, was giving him instruction in the Catholic faith since March 23rd. Robbie seemed to be
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Speaker A
accepting this, but when the right of exorcism would begin, he would go into his rages and obscenities. Robbie even asked to be baptized Catholic when he was not in his trance and his parents decided to let him be baptized in the
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Speaker A
religion of his choice. The baptism was not an easy manner. Every time Robbie was asked to say the creed, he would go into a trance. Father Bowin found a short form of the creed and Robbie was able to say this at one point uh when he
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Speaker A
remained normal. When he was asked to renounce Satan, he would go into a trance. Finally, Father Bowin found an opening of normaly to which Robbie stated, "I do renounce him." Prior to the baptism proper, Robbie erupted with the greatest violence ever. Here's
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Speaker A
something based. On April 2nd, Robbie exhibited enough normaly to go through a conditional confession after after which the priest decided to give him his first holy communion. A particle of the host was placed on his tongue, but he spat it
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Speaker A
out five times over two hours. Finally, they decided to pray a rosary to our lady of Fatima. After which, Robbie finally swallowed the particle of holy communion. Beast. Father Bowin was now joined by another priest, Father John Flarity, and they drove Robbie back to
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Speaker A
his relative's home. When they were back home, the violence began again. Robbie fell into a trance. Eventually, the word go appeared above Robbiey's groin as it did on the first night of the exorcism.
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Then, his father bowed and persisted, saying, "Tell me the time of your exit." Three parallel scratches appeared on Robbie's right thigh and then the words at Oram or at the hour. Then an X was branded. They decided to continue the
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Speaker A
right of exorcism in Maryland. At this point in his diary, Father Bishop made special note of the nine Jesuits who are official witnesses to paranormal activity in Robbie's possession.
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Speaker A
Reverend George Bishoffberger, Reverend Raymond J. Bishop, Reverend Joseph Bolan, Reverend William S. Bowder, Reverend Edund Burke, Reverend John Flarity, Reverend Villian Vonvu, Mr.
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Speaker A
Walter Howeran, and Brother Albert Shell. After two days of relative peace, Robbie fell into a 5-hour trance on April 7th. 20 scratch marks and branding appeared all over Robbiey's body. The number four, a pitchfork for scratch marks and claw marks appeared on his
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Speaker A
belly and his legs. Robbie went into violent tantrums with curs cursing and filthy talk about the priest and nuns.
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Speaker A
And then finally, we get to St. Alexius Hospital in St. Louis. Robbie remained at peace throughout April 11th, but at about 9:00 p.m., he felt a sting on his chest. This was followed by much sharper pain and a branding on Robbiey's chest
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Speaker A
that spelled the word exit. The same word reappeared three different times on Robbiey's body with an arrow pointing toward his groin. Robbie cried, suffering from very painful urination and severe pain in his kidneys. At around midnight, the priest prepared
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Speaker A
Robbie to receive Holy Communion, but immediately Robbie resisted and the word hell appeared on his chest and thigh.
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Speaker A
When the priest tried to give Robbie a particle of Holy Communion, he was taken off into a trance and Satan's voice said that he would not allow Robbie to receive it. The priest then tried to administer a spiritual communion. When a
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Speaker A
person who cannot receive the Holy Eucharist says, "Lord, I wish to receive you in holy communion." But every time Robbie came to the word communion, he was stopped short and could not pronounce it. This led to more violent
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Speaker A
thrashing, cursing, and foul language throughout the whole thing. The voice of Satan kept saying, "I will not let him receive holy communion." Interestingly, during Holy Week, Robbie was quite peaceful during these days. He received holy communion and was able to watch the
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Speaker A
Easter services on the Catholic television channel. Easter Monday was to be the final day of Robbiey's possession, his liberation from the demons who had occupied his body. Father Bow and Father Bishop and Father Oclarity came in the even came in the
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evening and made some adjustments to the right of exorcism. They decided to ask the responses to be in English and then put a crucifix in Robbiey's hands. As the exorcism proceeded, something very different began to happen. First, when
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Speaker A
Robbie came out of his trance states, he would revert immediately to prayer and would recite the words for spiritual communion on his own. When he was forced back into a trance, he reported seeing light as if at the end of the tunnel as
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Speaker A
he went into the trance. With each later trance, Robbie reported seeing more light, and he became more reverent when he came out of the trance. At 10:45 p.m., something truly extraordinary occurred. Robbie went into another seizure, but remained calm. Father
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Bishop reported the following. In clear, commanding tones and with dignity, a voice broke into the prayers. The following is an accurate quotation. I am St. Michael, and I command you, Satan, and the other evil spirits to leave the
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Speaker A
body in the name of domino immediately. Now, now, now. Then there were the most violent contortions of the entire period of exorcism, that is since March 16th.
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Speaker A
Perhaps this was a fight to the finish. In a later interview with Father Howeran, the exit of the demons was quite forceful. I was taken off of the case 5 days before the conclusion, but from what I understand, there was a very
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Speaker A
loud sound, a boom, sort of like a sonic boom. And then the boy opened his eyes and said St. Michael came and that it was over. At the same time this took place, there were about six or seven
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Speaker A
priests over in the college church saying their office. And there was a huge boom over there and the whole church was completely lit up. Father Bowurn who was doing the exorcism and the boy were at the rectory. There was a
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very very bright light that lit up the whole church. The following day, Robbie was perfectly normal. He participated in mass for the first time since his possession and also his conversion, received holy communion and prayed 10 rosaries in thanksgiving for his
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Speaker A
liberation from the devil. Several checks have been made by staff members of the exorcist as well as Thomas Allen who discovered that Robbie grew up to be a very healthy and responsible family man. He has no recollection of anything
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Speaker A
that happened to him from January 15th, 1949 to April 18th, 1949. Terry Cooper, PhD, a psychologist with doctorates from Vanderbilt University in St. Louis University and Cindy Eperson, a doctoral fellow at the University of Missouri, had done a thorough psychological review
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Speaker A
of the facts behind the Mar Robbie Manheim casing, concluded that they cannot be explained by psychological interpretation alone. Aside from the large number of paranormal activities ranging from levitation, dozens of cases of psychokinesis, so things just like spontaneously moving across the room of
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Speaker A
their own accord, and the hundreds of scratches and brandings on Robbiey's body, which have no known physical cause, to Robbie's awareness of Latin, Robbie's behavior does not fit any known psychological disorder. Several psychological explan several psychological explanations have been
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Speaker A
offered, but Cooper and Epson rule them out for a variety of reasons. First psychological explanation offered is dissociative identity disorder, where an individual splits into several different personalities in order to cope with traumatic experience. Copper and Eper discount this explanation for three
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Speaker A
reasons. The manifestation of Robbiey's second satanic personality completely disappeared when the exorcism was complete. This does not occur in multiple personality disorder, as they put it then. That's it was formerly known as MPD, multiple personality disorder. This does not occur in MPD,
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Speaker A
where the only solution appears to be long and tedious therapy to reintegrate the personality and cope with the trauma. MPD is linked to ongoing abuse during childhood. Investigation into Robbie's background indicates no such abuse. Prior to the possession beginning
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Speaker A
on January 16th, 1949, there was no evidence of other personalities manifest in Robbiey's life, which would have been expected if he had MPD. I mean, obviously, also, you know, multiple personality disorder doesn't make scratch marks spontaneously appear on
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Speaker A
your skin in front of a bunch of different witnesses, right? Or to levitate or cause things to like fly across the room, etc. Another psychological explanation offered for obvious behavior is schizophrenia. As Cuberson indicates, schizophrenia is more of a shattered personality instead
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Speaker A
of instead of a split one. The shattering causes hallucinations, delusions, and other kinds of psychotic behavior. It is now thought to be a brain disorder that can be resolved by anticycotic medication. The important point is that schizophrenia cannot be
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Speaker A
resolved without antiscychotic medication. Therapy alone will not resolve the disorder. There are three problems with diagnosing Robbie as a schizophrenic. First, Robbie was 13 years old, too young for the onset of schizophrenia, which occurs between 17 and 25. Second, when Robbie was not in a
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Speaker A
trans state, he remained coherent, indicating that he did not have a break with reality, which occurs during schizophrenia. Third, Robbie was completely cured on April 18th, 1949 after the exorcism without antisycchotic drugs or psychotherapy. and again won't explain the paranormal phenomena. A
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Speaker A
third psychological explanation suggested it is described Robbie's behavior as like no, he just has Tourette's, you know, where someone just manifests a tick, as well as outbursts, cursing, and other inappropriate expressions. This explanation is also inadequate for two reasons. Firstly,
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Speaker A
although Tourette's can explain Robbie's curing and blasphemous outbursts, it cannot explain the violent rages, the repulsion to holy water and sacred objects, and the harmful acts done to those who participate in the exorcisms.
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Speaker A
For example, the acts done to Father Hughes, the Alexian brother, the Howeran. Secondly, it cannot explain the paranormal activity mentioned about. Tre syndrome does not simply go away. It is treated with counseling and medication.
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Speaker A
A fourth psychological explanation for Robbiey's behavior is sexual abuse by Robbie's aunt Harriet. Of course, doesn't explain the paranormal phenomena. There was also no evidence for that. And Copper and Everson note, sexual abuse is unfortunately quite common in our society. How often do we
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Speaker A
see symptoms such as the ones displayed by Robbie? The psychological explanation for Robbie's behavior is group hysteria, but as Cooper and Eerson note, there were 48 witnesses to the paranormal activity and violent rages of Robbie who were spread out in many places in
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Speaker A
Maryland and St. Louis. Were all of these groups collectively hysterical? Other suggestions have been bipolar disorder and substance abuse disorder, but these suggestions do not fit Robbiey's behaviors or frame of mind. In view of all this, it seems highly
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Speaker A
unlikely that Robbie's behavior and the paranormal activity accompanying it can be explained by psychological or psychiatric paradigms. So, I mean, again, like you're you're just going to implicate all these different witnesses in this grand conspiracy cuz they're saying things that you're pretty hard to
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Speaker A
be honestly mistaken about. Or maybe they're just engaging in like bizarre confabulations. I mean, again, you can say that, but it's just going to get more and more uncomfortable as we go on.
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Speaker A
Next up is Latoya Ammons. And here we're going to play a clip from Joe Heshmire.
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Speaker A
It's called the Ammons Exorcism case. So, here's an introduction to the case from one of the priests involved. The first time I heard about the incident was when the at just after the boy walked up the wall backwards. Um there
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Speaker A
was a furer there. People running out calling for the police, security, the chaplain. He called me. I'm sorry, father. You were called after the boy did what? Walked up the wall backwards.
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Speaker A
This is just the tip of the iceberg of the strange things in this case. So this case, credit where it's due. Marissa Quittowski of the Indianapolis Star broke this case. She later became more famous for breaking the case of Gary
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Speaker A
Nassar and his abuse of the gymnast for Team USA Gymnastics. But at the time back in 2014 when she broke this story, it was by far her biggest kind of breakthrough. And I'm actually going to talk about that a little bit later on
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Speaker A
because she had to work against some institutional forces to present this really astonishing and I think it's fair to say at times incredible sort of case.
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Speaker A
And I mean that in the literal sense of both amazing but also hard to believe and some people refuse to believe it.
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Speaker A
But it has two things going for it as we're going to see really hard to explain facts and a number of apparently unrelated and reputable sort of witnesses. So I'm going to give you just some of the passages from this story
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Speaker A
which was picked up from the Annapolis store star to USA Today. She said, "A woman and three children claimed to be possessed by demons. A nine-year-old boy walking backward up a wall in the presence of a family case manager and
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Speaker A
hospital nurse." So, it's not just that he's walking backwards up the wall, is you don't just have to take mom or grandma's word for it. The people who are checking on him because of these claims of demonic possession are writing
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Speaker A
about this stuff and official reports. And then she quotes the police captain for Gary Indiana, Charles Austin, saying it was the strangest story he'd ever heard. And he was initially skeptical.
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Speaker A
He's been a veteran of the police department for 36 years at this point. And he doesn't originally believe it. He thinks for some reason she must be trying to use this somehow to make money. But after several visits to the
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Speaker A
home, he comes away a believer. And we're going to see some reasons why he in particular uh seemed to have been targeted and has good cause to come away a believer.
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Speaker A
But she says not everyone involved with the family was inclined to believe its incredible story. And many readers will find Ammon's supernatural claims impossible to accept. And I like that phrasing because I think it gets to that issue that if you're following this just
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Speaker A
on the evidence, if this was any other kind of news story, if someone said there's been a horrible massacre, it's unthinkable. And yet here are these police officers and medical professionals and uh eyewitnesses and everything else who all attest to the
551:04
Speaker A
same thing, we would be heavily inclined to believe that it was real. But when it's instead these children were possessed by demons or this house is haunted, well then we don't want to believe it. But that's just an outofhand
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Speaker A
dismissal dogmatically, not an evaluation of the evidence. So, I like that she calls it just impossible to accept, not hard to believe or anything like that because the claims themselves, if you get rid of the bias seem kind of compelling.
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Speaker A
Let's read on. I don't want to get ahead of myself. She says, "Whatever the cause of the creepy occurrences that befell the family, whether they were seized by a systematic delusion or demonic possession, it led to one of the most
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Speaker A
unusual cases ever handled by the Department of Child Services." So, for those of you not familiar, the Department of Child Services checks in on families if there's a reason to suspect a child may be in danger, malnutrition, abuse, neglect, those kind
551:58
Speaker A
of things. In this case, when you've got kids saying, "I'm possessed by a demon," DCS is going to get involved because they're wondering, "Is this a a cry for help because of something going on in the home?" But notice here again, I
552:10
Speaker A
really like the reporter's language that the options really are demonic possession or systematic delusion. that you can't just say, "Oh, the mom's crazy or the grandma's crazy." You also have to say the doctors are crazy and the medical professionals and the police are
552:23
Speaker A
crazy and Department of Child Services, everybody's crazy. Like, everybody in Gary is just crazy. Now, you can do that if you want to, but it is less probable.
552:33
Speaker A
Every person you have to add to the conspiracy to be able to pass it off as a a counter explanation to no, no, the people saw what they saw and are reliable eyewitnesses. But again, I don't want to get ahead of us.
552:46
Speaker A
As Maria Kitowski points out, there's nearly 800 pages of official records between DCS and the police and medical professionals. And there have been more than a dozen interviews with police, DCS personnel psychologists family members, and a Catholic priest. That's a
553:02
Speaker A
lot of people to be involved in a fabrication for no apparent reason. People that don't know each other.
553:10
Speaker A
Furthermore, she says the family story is made only more bizarre because it involves a DCS intervention, a string of psychological evaluations, a police investigation, and ultimately a series of exorcisms. We're going to talk about several of those things. Just know, I'm
553:23
Speaker A
not even giving all the details from this pretty astonishing sort of story. You can find it online.
553:30
Speaker A
But I wanted to start with one of the hardest to explain details. This is from the grandma Campbell. She runs into the bedroom and her 12-year-old granddaughter and a friend are staying in there and the mom Ammons and Campbell
553:42
Speaker A
the grandma say the 12-year-old was levitating above the bed unconscious. Now, from what I can tell, this family is Protestant. And so, their response to this pretty obviously supernatural demonic sort of thing, the daughters floating while asleep, is to reach out
553:59
Speaker A
to their local Protestant churches. And most of them refuse to listen. This is part of that modern bias against the supernatural that I think we see.
554:08
Speaker A
Eventually though, you get some questionable sort of help. So, we're told that officials at one church told them the Carolina Street house had spirits in it. They recommend the family clean the home with bleach and ammonia, then use oil to draw
554:22
Speaker A
crosses on every door and window. So, I like that they're aware that holy oil is important or that blessed objects are are important, but bleach and ammonia and all this this is what you get when you get rid of the traditional spiritual
554:38
Speaker A
tools of Christianity and then just make new ones up. Now, that's a much bigger conversation, but needless to say, these kind of DIY Protestant solutions didn't work.
554:49
Speaker A
at the church's suggestion. Nevertheless, Ammon said she poured olive oil on her three children's hands and feet and smeared oil in the shape of crosses on their foreheads. And so she describes getting some short-term relief, but not really. It comes back
555:01
Speaker A
worse than before. And then she gets worse advice. She then reaches out to two clairvoyants who claimed that the family home was being besieged by more than 200 demons. And we're told this explanation made sense to Campbell and
555:16
Speaker A
Ammons uh because it meshed with their Christian faith. And I just want to say here, don't do that. Don't mess around with mediums and psychics and ghost hunters and people who are playing around with the occult that don't have
555:29
Speaker A
the spiritual authority to do so or are doing it in kind of a flip dangerous and even occultish black magic sort of way.
555:38
Speaker A
Now, some of you are going to hear that and just think like, "Wow, you are a crazy person." But no, if this stuff is real at all, opening those doors to it is incredibly dangerous. So, needless to say, this also doesn't work. So, then
555:52
Speaker A
they take the kids to the doctor to see what's going on. And while they're there, um the sons, remember it's two boys and a girl, the sons curse the doctor and demonic voices raging at him.
556:04
Speaker A
So, fair enough. You can imagine, well, maybe the kids are just doing like a scary voice. But then medical staff said the youngest boy was lifted and thrown into the wall with nobody touching him.
556:14
Speaker A
And this is again in the official DCS report. And again, we're not just taking the mom and grandma's word for it. We have the people at the doctor's office, the medical staff who witnessed this. So at this point, somebody calls DCS, the
556:28
Speaker A
Department of Child Services, and they want to find out if there's any neglect or abuse going on in the home, which look, I applaud this. This is a a smart move. Maybe all of this demonic scening stuff is somehow related to neglect or
556:42
Speaker A
abuse. Now, I don't know how neglect or abuse gets to levitation or kids going flying into walls, but you want to do things the right way. You want to check to make sure.
556:53
Speaker A
And so, the caller who calls into DCS is afraid that the mom has mental illness because the kids are claiming they have demons.
557:01
Speaker A
So, they're convinced, oh, she must be encouraging them. So, in any case, DCS assigns a family case manager by the name of Valerie Washington to investigate the case. She writes up in her official report that there's no signs of abuse. The kids appear to be
557:14
Speaker A
healthy. There's no marks or bruises, and the mom seems to be of sound mind.
557:20
Speaker A
Then you get the weirder stuff in Washington's report. She talks about how the 9-year-old had a weird grin. And this story is corroborated by the nurse. The nine-year-old had a weird grin and walked backwards up a wall to the
557:35
Speaker A
ceiling. He then flipped over Campbell, the grandma, landing on his feet. He never let go of his grandmother's hand.
557:45
Speaker A
So, that's one of those really striking sort of claims that there's a reason the priest leads with that. There's a reason the Indiana Star, Indianapolis Star, uh, story leads with that. Like, that is a shocking sort of thing, watching a kid
557:56
Speaker A
walk up the wall backwards. And so they interviewed Miss Walker about this and she said he walked up the wall, flipped over her and stood there. There's no way he could have done that.
558:09
Speaker A
Now later police asked Washington whether he had run up the wall, you know, like is this some sort of like parkour, you know, the acrobatic trick, and she said no. He glided backwards on the floor, wall and ceiling. This is all
558:22
Speaker A
in the official report. Again, you got hundreds of pages of this stuff. There's more, but I want to give just a couple other kind of details. And so, at one point, the officers are investigating the house, and on the main floor, they
558:35
Speaker A
see from the Venetian blinds an oilike substance, and they couldn't figure out why it was dripping. Like, where is this oilike substance coming from that's dripping uh through the blinds? And so, you know, maybe the mom and the grandma
558:50
Speaker A
put it there, right? Like earlier, they were advised to put oil and weird stuff all over the house. So reasonable to think maybe they're the source of it. So just to make sure the police clean it up and then guard the room for 25 minutes.
559:03
Speaker A
So the room's sealed for 25 minutes uh and stood nearby. So nobody's getting in and out of the room. So nobody's sneaking in there and just pouring oil for whatever reason on the Venetian blinds. When they go back in, the oil
559:15
Speaker A
has reappeared. So from somewhere, oil is materializing on these Venetian blinds. This is one of those things that seem to be pretty influential in getting the police to take this extremely seriously.
559:28
Speaker A
Okay. So, for the Latoya Emmens case, like you're going to add to who are you going to add to this conspiracy?
559:32
Speaker A
Latoya's whole family, the named physician, the hospital personnel, the police officers, the exorcist. You know, we have interviews with him where he testifies to seeing the natural manifestations right in front of his eyes in totally perceptually conducive circumstances. Your conspiracy is
559:43
Speaker A
getting more and more paroque, but it gets worse. Manior Dr. Steven Rosetti, Washington DC, USA. He served as the exorcist for the arch dascese of Washington and DC for the past 15 years.
559:52
Speaker A
He has also been the chaplain of the Washington Nationals for the past 10 years. He's a licensed psychologist with a PhD in counseling psychology from Boston College and a research associate professor at the Catholic University of America, graduated from the US Air Force
560:01
Speaker A
Academy in 1973 and served as a second lieutenant in the US Air Force where he worked for 6 years. He extensively recounts his direct experiences running an exorcism team in his book Diary of American Exorcist: Demons Possession and
560:10
Speaker A
the Modern Day Battle Against Ancient Evil. I think he has another book that's more recent where he talks about this and he also in there includes some test firsthand testimonies anonymous from inner humans so possessed individuals about their experiences. It's very
560:23
Speaker A
interesting. Anyway, um here these just two quotes that the St. Beluga article provides. One day I had in hand a small 1 and 12 in diameter thea or container with a relic of St. Peter in it. I laid
560:32
Speaker A
the the on the temple deflect a person that the person visibly jerked. I commanded him to tell us which saint it was keeping the the identity hidden and he said Peter. In one session, a man began to manifest and the entire
560:40
Speaker A
eyeballs of his blue eyes turned completely black. Father Gabriel Amor was a prominent exorcist for the dascese of Rome. He founded the International Association of Exorcist. He received the Warcross for the military valor for his involvement in the Italian resistance
560:51
Speaker A
during World War II, serving as a commander of the third battalion of the second Italian brigade. He also served as a deputy for Julo Andreotti who later became Italian Prime Minister helping him draft the country's new constitution. Father Amor was a highly
561:01
Speaker A
prolific author of works on demonology and exorcisms. Five of them are referenced in this article. And his long history as an exorcist includes many noteworthy events. A young mechanic, even before the exorcism was initiated, began to levitate. Just as I placed my
561:10
Speaker A
hand on his shoulder, five people could not hold him still. The case, just as I entered the front door, all the chairs around the table fell to the floor, and from the ceiling, pieces of paper with strange names written on them began to
561:18
Speaker A
fall. During the benediction, the person began to vomit, some pins, which surely not come from the stomach. Rather, they materialize in dense saliva as it came out of her mouth. Another case, the demon resumed his streaks, making the
561:26
Speaker A
possessed turn his head back and his eyes roll, and he remained like this with his back arched for a quarter of an hour. All of a sudden, the room became extremely cold, and ice crystals formed on the windows and the walls. The young
561:35
Speaker A
man's body stepped in so much that he became hard and at a certain point began to levitate and for several minutes he remained hovering 3 feet in the air.
561:41
Speaker A
We'll go through some we'll go through some testimonies from father Vince Lampert later. Father Jose Antonio Forte Forte a priest and novelist served as an exorcist for the dascese of Alcala de Anare in Spain and narrated his life
561:51
Speaker A
experiences including exorcisms from his 2008 Spanish memoir during the prayers for the poor and unfortunate boy. What surprised us all the most was was his impoverished version of the Christmas carol apart from the physical strength he developed which was astonishing. Five
562:01
Speaker A
men had put in a lot of effort to hold him down. And that was while the boy was lying on his back on a mat. And those who held him tried to restain him by putting all their weight on him. But the
562:07
Speaker A
strength he displayed for three hours was incredible. He revealed many hidden sins of all those present. It seemed to scorch him and he only screamed in agony. But a few details betrayed the presence of the demon. A certain order I
562:15
Speaker A
gave in complicated Latin had been understood and obeyed immediately. That along with the version of the crucifix, holy water relics betrayed the demon.
562:20
Speaker A
There also lots of video testimonials. So let's get into those. First up is Adam Blie who we saw in the stigmatist section. He's assisted at between 1500 and 2,000 exorcisms. Green cannon law. I think he has a masters in clinical
562:31
Speaker A
psychology if I recall correctly. His all but dissertation I think for his PhD was it in psychology I forget exactly but you can go to the earlier part of the video where I introduce him.
562:39
Speaker A
And then this part of my life that this book is coming from is kind of the world of exorcism and and deliverance ministry that I got pulled into about 15 years ago and it's just been like a snowball
562:51
Speaker A
rolling from there and and getting more involved and intense over the years. Um, it started in brainwave research and and studying clinical psychology. Um, and then when I realized there was something genuine going on, I kind of shifted
563:06
Speaker A
gears and devoted my life to that. How did you come to realize that something genuine was going on in your your own words?
563:14
Speaker A
Well, I had been trained in uh diagnosing mental illness and I had treated a good bit of um reasonable range of mental illness uh in terms of in the community. And then I was also uh working in the Pennsylvania state prison
563:30
Speaker A
system where a lot of the severe mental illness ends up getting housed because the state hospital system collapsed in, you know, the 80s and 90s. So sadly, we put a lot of our mentally ill in prisons in the United States. Um, so anyway, I
563:45
Speaker A
had seen quite a bit and possession doesn't look like any of that. And the the the thing that everybody, the armchair critic would immediately say, "Oh, that's just epilepsy. You're dumb.
563:57
Speaker A
You're misunderstanding it." Um, or it's schizophrenia or something. Schizophrenia. Yeah. Schizophrenia doesn't mean multiple personalities. People just have that misapprehension about the word. So technically it would be dissociative identity disorder. Um but here's what I found is that schizophrenia doesn't make
564:16
Speaker A
you suddenly fluent in ancient languages, right? Um multiple personalities doesn't make you able to speak Greek or in we had one case with um Icelandic but the grammar was from 600 years ago. Very obscure stuff. We had a woman here in Pennsylvania raised
564:34
Speaker A
uh basically on a farm with a high school education, spoke only English, and she was interrogated in English, French, Latin, Lithuanian, German during the exorcisms and responded to all the languages properly. So like that's the first of the signs of possession is
564:49
Speaker A
facility in all languages. Were you were you there for for that one where she spoke all these different languages?
564:56
Speaker A
Uh I wasn't there at when I when all of them were interrogated, but I saw her interrogated in different languages at different times. And then I had friends that were there. Yeah. They were kind of spread out. There was um
565:09
Speaker A
I I assume that she was never familiar with any of those languages because there are some cases where someone may have studied uh Mandarin when they were younger and and then they they went into a coma and then they came out of the
565:19
Speaker A
coma speaking fluent Mandarin. But that wasn't the case here, right? It's not it's not as if she had like studied any of these languages and done any sort any sort of even if you had studied one or two it'd
565:31
Speaker A
be very rare you'd be quite a polyglot to be able to speak five or six languages and then the the more obscure ones like the ancient languages like it's pretty rare these days to to speak Latin properly. The first thing is
565:44
Speaker A
languages and and there's been myriad cases where they've been either asked questions in other languages or they've spoken them. Um and then knowledge of secret things. So like knowing your secret sins. Um you see a lot of that in
566:01
Speaker A
the movies but you see some of it in exorcisms also. Um where the demon will like basically think of the the you know the most horrible thing you've done.
566:12
Speaker A
Maybe you were completely alone and nobody knows about it or the most embarrassing thing that you did that was bad. And then having that said in detail to the room like mental illness doesn't explain that. That's that's one example
566:24
Speaker A
of knowing hidden things. The third thing is being able to to detect the holy. So if I hold up a crucifix, obviously you're supposed to react if it's psychological and you're you're faking, you know, oh, I'm supposed to to be scared of that. But
566:39
Speaker A
you can line up six bottles of water, one of which was blessed in the other room out of the person's sight. They're all identical. They can always pick out the blessed one every time. They can tell you whether there's a relic in that
566:49
Speaker A
box or not. Um I've had cases where they've been able to describe the saint whose relic it is without even seeing it. They can't see it, just getting close to it or touching it.
567:02
Speaker A
And it goes on um the supernatural strength is the weakest of the signs. So that's the fourth classic sign. of the four is languages, knowing hidden things, detecting the holy, and then supernatural strength or strength beyond your condition in life. That's the
567:15
Speaker A
weakest of the signs because in prison with psychotic, really violent guys, we we've seen some crazy strength. The difference with possession is they never get tired.
567:27
Speaker A
So, two or three hours later, everybody's exhausted and rung out and your muscles are shaking and the person comes back to the human state and they don't feel any fatigue. they don't they don't understand why everybody's wrecked. Um, so anyway, those are the
567:42
Speaker A
four signs. And once you see enough of this and you get past the point of saying like, well, maybe it's the hyper rare thing with the coma and maybe they heard it on TV and they got one sentence
567:52
Speaker A
when they were six years old. Once you get past and realize like, no, they actually know the full language. Um, and then the really obscure stuff like the Icelandic, but Icelandic from the grammar structure from 600 years ago. I
568:07
Speaker A
had a friend on the internet in Iceland because Icelandic is, if you know anything about it, it's fairly obscure, really complicated, like the words are like 40 40 characters long. Crazy language to try to learn. Um, so I had a
568:22
Speaker A
friend who was able to translate it for me. Um, so anyway, you see that stuff enough and you you come to the point where and realize that you can't think your way out of it anymore. The first time I encountered a possessed person, I
568:34
Speaker A
was certainly I was more just not confused, but unsure about what I had just experienced. So, I wouldn't say I was like, "Oh, that's definitely real." All I knew for sure was that didn't look like any of the mental illness I had
568:48
Speaker A
seen. It didn't fit any diagnostic criteria that I encountered before. and the the normal mechanisms you would do to like pull somebody out of a of that kind of distressed altered state like had zero effect. Um, and the things
569:07
Speaker A
talking out of the person, you know, pretty clearly knew what was going on, mocked me for not knowing what was going on and then proceeded to just do whatever they wanted. Um, the first time I knew it was real
569:22
Speaker A
probably was the first real solemn exorcism I was at. And um, it had been going on for a number of years. And it was the same the same woman that I mentioned with the English, French, Latin, Lithuanian, and German. It's a
569:34
Speaker A
brutal case that had been going on for years before I got involved. I helped for maybe a year and a half or two years. Um, and in that case it was uh I guess the first moment I really knew
569:49
Speaker A
something prednatural was happening. There's kind of two versions when a demon talks out of a person. One is like moving the breath like we're talking right now. Like exactly the same. You're making noises with your mouth. All that's normal. And you can do it in a
570:05
Speaker A
deep voice and you can do it in a high voice. Like no big deal.
570:09
Speaker A
And when demons animate a body and talk out of it, they basically sound like the person, though with different inflections and a different style of speaking, but basically it's the same vocal cords, so it's going to sound the
570:20
Speaker A
same. There's another version of it that I've only seen once and I saw it briefly in that case and that was the person was on the floor during the exorcism um because that was the safest place for everybody.
570:34
Speaker A
And at one point they had their mouth open and their head kind of back and there was no movement of the lungs.
570:42
Speaker A
There was no breath being pushed out. The mouth wasn't moving. It just hung open and stayed still. And this voice echoed from all parts of the room simultaneously. this really deep loud as if you had like surround sound speakers
570:56
Speaker A
in all the corners of the room and a subwoofer and it was just like boom and it made this kind of growl. It sounded like something like with the chest the size of a gorilla would make. Incredibly deep
571:10
Speaker A
noise, not human. And every fiber in you when you heard it, when I heard it, and then everybody else, I don't know if you've ever like maybe been at a zoo and heard an animal that made a sound that
571:21
Speaker A
just activated that fear thing in you biologically, kind of like that's a predator. Like I'm in danger. Like not human, that's dangerous. It was like that, but it was more alien. It was more like not of this earth. It's hard to describe, but I saw
571:40
Speaker A
the person's mouth wasn't moving. They weren't blowing air out. It wasn't them making a deep sound. And it was coming from all sides of the room. It wasn't just coming from them.
571:49
Speaker A
And that heard it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't my It wasn't me imagining something like it was like the needle on the record got dragged across and everything stopped because it was like, whoa. Like that was not Yeah.
572:01
Speaker A
That was very strange. That was probably the moment where I knew something weird was going on. I knew it didn't match what I had seen in psychology.
572:12
Speaker A
I saw that it responded to prayer. I saw some of the language stuff, but when that happened, I was like, well, that's alien. That's not at all. That's not something acting through a body. like there's something else here that's the
572:25
Speaker A
size of this room spiritually that just pulled the curtain aside just for a split second. And um that was probably the moment that I realized truly that was the first time I realized like okay this is yeah like it's on.
572:40
Speaker A
Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm trying to think of like part of my goal in tonight and when I interviewed Father Vince Lampert as well was like I want to try as best I can to play the role of like the skeptic
572:52
Speaker A
or the devil's advocate here. And I mean I'm having trouble like coming up with some alternate explanation other than just like you're you just made that story up. Like that was that's one of the only things that I can even come up
573:07
Speaker A
with is like that story is not real. you just made it up. But when I read your accounts in the in the book and when I've talked to to people like yourself and Father Vince Lampard, it doesn't strike me as like people making things
573:19
Speaker A
up. It sounds like they're just reporting things that they experience firsthand. Yeah. And and I think being skeptical is is a normal, rational, healthy first place to start. Like these these are very extraordinary things that most people don't get to experience. So, I
573:38
Speaker A
think it's reasonable to to wonder about it. You know, I've seen a person like gesture towards a screw that was in the wall across the room, kind of like something out of Star Wars, and it rips out of the wall, flies across the room
573:51
Speaker A
into their hand, and they ram it into their arm and start gouging themselves. Like, I've seen crazy stuff like stuff fly around or different voices. Um, the stuff with Satan was probably the most violent. Um, that last case in the
574:08
Speaker A
book was probably the craziest 11 days I've been through because that was, you know, three to five hours a day for 11 days straight. Boy, I was banged up. It was um that was something else.
574:22
Speaker A
So, like he's spending hours on end for days straight witnessing natural manifestations and he's specifying the things you can't easily be honestly mistaken about. Like if you're a naturalist, the only remotely plausible option is that he's just lying. And you
574:34
Speaker A
know, so are everyone else that we're about to listen to and everyone else we've heard from. Even though he does other things that are totally unlike people lying for fame or money or whatever. You know, he admits to never
574:44
Speaker A
having seen levitation or various other manifestations. He's extremely humble and unstentious. You know, my good friend has hung out with him and says he's very reserved in real life. He explicitly and repeatedly says he shares these things to warn people and help
574:54
Speaker A
them. He says skepticism is a reasonable starting point. He obviously thinks lying is a sin, etc. And I should emphasize again that like I put the demonic phenomena lower down on the list because I think they are while they're
575:05
Speaker A
still highly evidential. I think there's like overwhelming cross-cultural independently converging testimony here, it's not as evidential as you know all the other cases where we have like doctor's reports and thousands of witnesses and like blinded laboratory analyses and you know medical
575:16
Speaker A
documentation and all that stuff. So like again the point of all this is to get like a mutually reinforcing cumulative case, right? for a long time.
575:23
Speaker A
Again, I was aware of like all these demonic phenomena, attestations and testimonies and it and it it alone was not sufficient to convince me. It was just like a thorn in my side for a while. It was like a pebble in my shoe
575:32
Speaker A
and you know not just a pebble but it continually grew and grew and grew until it was like a gigantic stone and then it became like a massive boulder. But the point is just that like again this is
575:40
Speaker A
just a plank in the broader cumulative case and even if this particular plank alone about demonic phenomena is not enough to convince you, it should at the very least cause some cognitive dissonance I think just like it caused
575:50
Speaker A
to me. Like if you actually just listen to what they're saying, like take this seriously and not just instead just like laugh it off and deride it, it becomes harder and harder and harder to explain away. If you go into it with an open
576:00
Speaker A
mind and heart, um, so I mean things like doors being kicked open when nobody's there or something flying off the wall and across the room or a person being dragged across the room when there's, you know, nothing there touching them,
576:16
Speaker A
things like this. and and the one case had a number of years back now in in this case one of the things that I saw that they see a lot in Europe is uh the production and spitting of either nails
576:32
Speaker A
people have seen it with razor blades even things as large as small hinges uh pieces of metal being kind of materializing in in the mouth just suddenly being there and then being spat at people. So in this case he was
576:45
Speaker A
spitting nails uh small nails at the priest and at the icon of St. Michael uh throughout the exorcisms and the sessions and these sessions with him would go on for 3 or 4 hours sometimes more. Um, so it was quite quite grueling
577:02
Speaker A
and extended and periodically through it. Um, the person's body that he was possessing would would spit these nails and you would say, "Oh, they they came in with a few of those tucked in their cheek or something, some excuse like
577:15
Speaker A
that." But the problem was they spoke normally. There was no indication of that. And by the end of the day, there was so many nails on the floor that I had to spend 10 minutes on my knees going around picking up nails to gather
577:28
Speaker A
them all up. And you know, I would have a h small handful of nails um once I gathered everything up by the end of the day. So yeah, there wasn't there wasn't a way to explain it away and they
577:40
Speaker A
weren't excusing themselves to go in the other room and and tuck nails in their cheek or something like that. Yeah. So I would throw the nails away at the end of the day because this happened multiple days, different sessions.
577:50
Speaker A
So you collected these nails mo oftentimes they were thrown out. Yeah. And I just kept, you know, 10 or 15 of them in a little box because one of my co-workers mentioned to me one day, you know, you should keep some of
578:01
Speaker A
those because 20 years from now, people are, you know, it's going to help to be able to show them, here's some nails that Satan spit out us during an exorcism and actually have the physical things instead of the story.
578:11
Speaker A
And didn't you say in Europe this happens quite often? very common there. So, um I'm a member of the International Association of Exorcists. So, I've had the privilege of going over to the international meetings there in Rome.
578:24
Speaker A
And the old guys in Rome, they have 40 years under their belt. You know, here in the States, we might at the max have 20. Uh they're very experienced there.
578:34
Speaker A
And they have whole large wooden boxes filled with all the hunks of metal that have come out of people's mouths during exorcisms that they've collected over the years. And that includes large nails, again, razor blades, small hinges, smaller nails. Um, but nails
578:49
Speaker A
seem to be the primary thing, but yeah, different types of metal. It's all very strange. And I'm sure this sounds very strange to a lot of people listening to it, especially on a Friday.
578:57
Speaker A
On a Friday, this really happens. It's it's a parlor trick. It's nothing more than that. It's just designed to be a distraction and to maybe freak the people out that are there so that they don't focus on the prayers. That's all
579:11
Speaker A
that is. and and just to make sure we, you know, have all everything covered in in this area. So, have you researched it and made sure that they didn't like stuff their mouths with with little mini nails to do that? You you have?
579:24
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, again, number one, the amount of nails would have made it difficult for them to talk if they were holding that many in their mouth that I would collect by the end of the day. Number two, after I saw this for
579:37
Speaker A
one day, before the session started, I asked them to open their mouth and lift their tongue up and looked in their mouth.
579:42
Speaker A
Okay. So, you checked and made sure there was nothing and they they still spit nails all afternoon.
579:47
Speaker A
How is the the possessed individual not getting hurt? I mean, you got razor blades, you know, you got nails, pieces of metal going through their body. How are they are they getting all cut up?
579:58
Speaker A
Well, it's that's an interesting question and and I guess a reasonable one. So, I did have one person who experienced this, who was conscious while it was happening, where the demon hadn't completely taken them over, yet they were spitting nails and other bits of
580:15
Speaker A
metal out of their mouth. And it actually happened um in front of a priest, which is part of what led the priest to referring the case to me, because it was originally deliverance prayer. And as the priest was praying
580:26
Speaker A
the deliverance prayer, the person coughed and a bunch of nails landed on the table between them.
580:33
Speaker A
Oh my goodness. Um and then as he kept praying, they kept, you know, kind of coughing up nails. Um and father wisely said, "This is pretty strange. I'm going to call at him." Um and so we took the case over
580:46
Speaker A
now. Um no, they're never hurt by it. And the person described the sensation of it because they were in the human state when this was happening, when the priest was praying for them. And they said they would suddenly taste in their
581:00
Speaker A
mouth kind of that um if you've ever put a nail in your mouth, there's kind of a a very bitter bright uh taste or sensation that comes from metal being directly on your tongue. And they said they would suddenly taste metal in their
581:15
Speaker A
mouth and then a moment later they would realize there's something obstructing their mouth and they they'd want to get it out or they would taste metal in their mouth and suddenly have an urge to cough and a few nails would fly out. So
581:28
Speaker A
that they never swallowed them. No. Okay. No. Um, and again, as we talked about before the break, this this was happening later during exorcisms quite a bit, and I would check the person's mouth before we started, and still by
581:42
Speaker A
the end of the day, there was a handful of nails all over the floor um that I would pick up and throw out. I'm a man who's a little over 6'2 and north of 220 pounds, reasonably strong.
581:54
Speaker A
Um, and I've seen cases where it takes five men just to keep the person in in place. Um, you know, we've seen it. We saw a woman throw a man who makes me feel small with one arm, threw him across the room
582:10
Speaker A
hard enough that he was airborne. So, I mean, gosh, that's not it's not always um but when it happens, it's pretty impressive. And and it's beyond the adrenaline rush where you would say like, oh, you know, for a moment you
582:24
Speaker A
have that strength like the woman who lifts the car off of her child kind of thing, but this goes on for hours. You know, three or four hours later they they're not slowing down at all. And my, you know, my muscles are quivering,
582:38
Speaker A
wanting to give out. And yeah, they don't slow down at all. And then when the person comes back to their senses at the end, they're just sitting there like, why is everybody so tired? And they feel fine. They don't feel fatigue
582:49
Speaker A
in their body. So they they haven't realized what was occurring. No, usually they're blacked out to them.
582:56
Speaker A
They remember the prayers beginning and then the next thing they know they're sitting there and it's 3 hours later.
583:03
Speaker A
I'm sure some people will ask, "Oh gosh, they have a mental illness. Might explain more of this. This is not demons. This is they have a a vivid imagination. They're having psychotic episodes. They may be taking bad drugs."
583:17
Speaker A
Mhm. Yep. And and that's what I thought too at the beginning and I was trained as a mental health professional. I was, you know, trained in diagnosis and I was studying the brain. Um, but here's the thing, John. The signs of possession the
583:31
Speaker A
church has figured out over the centuries and requires at least some of them be present. Um, knowing all languages. So, I started to mention earlier early case. We had a woman raised on a farm with a high school
583:44
Speaker A
education here in Pennsylvania. um didn't know any other languages than English. And there's nothing wrong with being raised on a farm and having a high school education. I'm just saying for context um there was a number of priests
583:57
Speaker A
there at one of the sessions and she was interrogated in English, French, Latin, Lithuanian, and German and properly responded to all the languages. Um, I had a case about a year and a half ago.
584:11
Speaker A
Another woman here in Pennsylvania, she was being seen in an emergency room and one of the police officers was Korean, um, American Korean but spoke Korean uh, at home and so knew the language well.
584:25
Speaker A
Um, she was speaking to him and and he thought she was fluent in Korean. Um but it was actually the demon had taken over and was speak and she doesn't know anything about Korean um at all. So my
584:39
Speaker A
point is that uh Tourette's, epilepsy, schizophrenia, they don't make you suddenly fluent in all languages. Yeah, that's that's not part of mental illness. Um including ancient languages.
584:51
Speaker A
So anyway, languages, knowing secrets and hidden things. So, schizophrenia doesn't make you suddenly know Adam's secret sins that happened five years ago that nobody else was there. Um, or or other secrets about the people in the room, detecting the holy. So, if you
585:09
Speaker A
line up 10 bottles of water and one of them's been blessed by the priest in the other room out of sight, they can tell you 100% of the time which one of them's blessed and which ones are not. They can
585:20
Speaker A
tell you the name of the saint whose relic is in your pocket that you haven't mentioned to anybody.
585:25
Speaker A
Wow. So, yeah, these these are some of the signs that mental illness doesn't account for that. Sure, mental illness can account for rolling around on the floor and growling.
585:35
Speaker A
Yeah. But the church has figured out a long time ago that most cases are mental illness. And so, the bar is is pretty high on what's possession.
585:44
Speaker A
Let's turn next to Father Vince Lambert, an Exorcist. Yes. In the 19 years that I've done this ministry, I certainly have countless encounters with the demonic. One that stands out very clearly was a uh a woman who had been away from the church for
586:02
Speaker A
more than 38 years. And her neighbor had convinced her to reconnect with her faith. And she told her neighbors she didn't know if she could do that because she was possessed.
586:14
Speaker A
But then she agreed to come and talk to me with her friend and we were sitting have in conversation and she was telling me how the demonic entered into her life. Then she began to cry and she looked at me and said, "Can you help
586:28
Speaker A
me?" And I looked her right in the eyes and I said, "Jesus is the one who's going to help you." And as soon as I said that, her eyeballs turned green.
586:37
Speaker A
Her pupils became slanted like a serpent. And a voice comes out of her mouth and says, "Well, who's he? He has no power over us. And then when I got up immediately and went over and laid my hands on the head of this person, the
586:51
Speaker A
demon is now manifesting. And these green eyes are looking at me and cussing me out. And I simply began to pray. And then the demon began to shriek and whimper and then cause the body to collapse to the floor. But again, that
587:05
Speaker A
notion of the demonic taking over that body, treating it as if it were its own by causing the physical appearance to change. So there's the green eyes again and the slanted pupils.
587:20
Speaker A
Slanted pupils as in like a kind of like a snake or like a cat. Is that what you're talking about?
587:25
Speaker A
So think of something reptilian. Yes. Absolutely. Okay. Okay. And and were you the only person in the room that saw this or were there other people that witnessed this as well?
587:35
Speaker A
The uh friend of the person witnessed it too. She literally jumped over the table to get away from her friend when the demon manifested. There was another priest in the room with me and when he witnessed it, he immediately fell to the
587:47
Speaker A
floor on his knees and began to pray. I'll talk maybe I'll say a little bit more about this in a second, but interestingly, I actually interviewed Father Lampert in person with Caleb Jackson. We pressed him extensively about his experiences in the exorcism
587:58
Speaker A
ministry. The reason why I interviewed in person is because he he lives very close to my home. Uh he gives the impression of utmost sincerity and cander and I've listened to many of his videos that he's done um throughout the
588:06
Speaker A
years and he shared a number of the same testimonial accounts in our interviews uh in our interview as those videos. I didn't notice any signs of embellishment and he was also quick to reveal details that were embarrassing for his account.
588:15
Speaker A
Among the things he testified to witnessing firsthand and in the presence of other witnesses were firstly yes he gave this account to the the changes in eye color and we were pressing. We're like okay so like did the person like
588:22
Speaker A
touch their eyes and like put in some kind of contact lenses? He's like, "No, they they changed like boom." He saw them for an extended duration. This particular manifestation happened multiple times with the same person and multiple other people were present saw
588:34
Speaker A
it, too. This is what he testified. And again, like something that's very hard to be mistaken about, like you're just b going to have to add him into the conspiracy. He's a liar, too. He also testified to instantaneous changes in
588:43
Speaker A
room temperature, even to the point that he could see his breath. I asked him, "So you could visibly see your breath?" And he was like, "Yes." He testified to objects flying across the room and without anyone touching them. He saw an
588:52
Speaker A
elongated jaw that goes all the way down to the chest. On one occasion, he testified to the inner humans speaking foreign languages. He testified to like extremely foul odors filling the room, unnatural strength, etc. You know, so when I was appointed in '05, I did
589:05
Speaker A
training in Rome in the early part of 2006. There was a Franciscan priest who allowed me to basically shadow him for 3 months. One of the exorcisms that I set in on was where the lady when she manifested the demon levitated. No,
589:22
Speaker A
anytime somebody's possessed, all the actions of that body are now wholly defined by the demon. So, I would not say this lady levitated. I would say the demon did it. Because when somebody's possessed, the demon is treating the
589:35
Speaker A
body as if it were its own. Using the person's eyes to see, the mouth to speak, the ears to hear, and so on.
589:43
Speaker A
So, I'm sitting there and the the priest that's doing the exorcism, you know, he's praying and I'm looking and the demon all of a sudden gets this hideous grin on its face and then just all of a sudden I look
589:56
Speaker A
over and the body is starting to rise out of the chair. And the demon is basically saying, "Look at what I can do." And I'm kind of looking at this in disbelief like, "What in the world?" And the priest that's doing the exorcism,
590:08
Speaker A
you know, he has the right of exorcism in his hand and you know, he's like, "Pray, pray, pray." And he looks over corner of his eye and he sees the levitation, too. He goes back to the book. Pray, pray, pray. And he looks
590:21
Speaker A
over again, and then he just takes his hand and puts it on the body of this lady and pushes her back down into the chair. The body into the chair.
590:31
Speaker A
He didn't even phase one minute. He did. I'm over there like in disbelief and he's just like, "Ah, business as usual." So, she was sitting and levitating. How far did she levitate? Like a foot.
590:43
Speaker A
She about a foot out of the chair before the priest then pushed the body back into the chair.
590:49
Speaker A
Basically said, "I'm not interested in your theatrics." Now, on to Manor Steven Rosetti, who was also an exorcist.
590:55
Speaker A
This is the same guy with the scratches on his chest. Oh. And same guy. And he took the he actually this is strange but strange things happened. His brother told me I just just talked to his brother recently. I want to confirm the the
591:11
Speaker A
validity of these photographs you know and he the brother told me he said I he took it himself. He stood up looked in the mirror and this is what he saw which is kind of frightening. Now so he he was
591:24
Speaker A
semi- manifesting already. Now we call this morphing. In other words, things will happen to people's bodies when when the demons are present. Uh, and the demons don't, by the way, demons don't control your soul, your spirit, whatever. They can affect your mind, but
591:42
Speaker A
can't control it. They can affect it strongly. But they can affect your body. When you're possessed, what do they possess? They possess the body. And when the demons are there and manifesting, you see all sorts of stuff happen to
591:55
Speaker A
their body. So here's a a case of morphing. He has normal eyes, but now what they look like is serpent eyes.
592:03
Speaker A
There's a reason why Satan has been depicted as a serpent. And so this is an example of that, which is quite striking.
592:12
Speaker A
So this is the same individual that had the scratches on his chest. The the only thing about this image is that it's it's very pixelated. Is there a reason for that that you that you know of? It's Yeah, it's it's very low resolution, so
592:24
Speaker A
it's hard. sent me a roll low resolution photo. I cropped it and blew it up. So that you're getting, you know, Gotcha.
592:33
Speaker A
We're not We're not taking these people into professional studios. They're getting, you know, Yeah.
592:38
Speaker A
How long ago was this one? This this has been about five years, probably seven years. This is this is quite in the past. We had one woman we thought was was being deceived that she didn't really have demons. I think it
592:50
Speaker A
was just in her mind. So we sprinkled holy water on her. We prayed the prayers and she was screaming, yelling, all kind of stuff. And then and both uh the exist and I looked at each other and said,
593:01
Speaker A
"This doesn't smell right." So we took some tap water. He read Cicero's letters in Latin. So So he was reading Cicero's letters and not prayers. And I hit her with with tap water. She started screaming, yelling, that sort of thing.
593:16
Speaker A
Yeah, fine. Thank you very much. She's not possessed. It's just it's in her head. So, and I've done things like that to to to discern, you know, this is a real picture. I don't if you can see it,
593:25
Speaker A
but this woman's eyes got both of her eyes got black. This is a real photo of a woman who was possessed. And, you know, in the midst of, you know, when she's manifesting, both of her eyes turn turn black. Uh, I'll mention a couple
593:37
Speaker A
more things and then we can we can we can talk about uh we can take some questions if you got some. I mean, I can talk for days, you know, but but I'm interested in your questions. Uh uh the
593:48
Speaker A
big discernment issue is the whole question of possession of mental illness. I'm a licensed psychologist, Father Danport mentioned and uh and that's helped a lot because uh we get all sorts of mentally ill people say, "I got demons. I got demons." No, you're
594:04
Speaker A
schizophrenic. He said, "I'm sure I got demons. I got evil voices in my head." No, that that's part of your mental illness. So someone with a major mental illness, they think they've got demons, but they don't. you know, they just I'm
594:17
Speaker A
sad to sorry to say it's part of the mental illness. Uh so there there is really a discernment issue about whether someone really is possessed or has a me a mental illness. you know, they're they're classic signs of possession uh
594:31
Speaker A
which you don't al always see in the beginning, you know, speaks foreign languages and uh sometimes I'll speak in Latin or or Italian, all of my Italian rots, but but just enough to see if the person right there can understand it. Uh
594:44
Speaker A
or cult knowledge, those are classic signs. Up next is Father Dan Hill, also an exorcist. Well, I mean, for me personally, I went to see a guy that was at a halfway house up near Kentucky and really had no expectation that there
594:58
Speaker A
would be a big problem at all. I just got a call from uh the person that was kind of running the halfway house said, "This guy's acting real strange and he's creeping out a lot of the other guys
595:08
Speaker A
here. Can you come talk to him?" So I went up and I met with him in a room privately and I just really just in the opening prayer wasn't even a prayer of deliverance. It was just you know come
595:22
Speaker A
Holy Spirit and you know guide my my thoughts and my actions and my my ways according to your will. And with that he just levitated right up off the couch and I said okay we're not going to do
595:34
Speaker A
this here. In what way was he So he was sitting on the couch and then he started to to levitate. Was he still like in a sort of seating pos position and then started or or what was going on?
595:43
Speaker A
Imagine you had a uh a rope tied to your belly button and was pulling you up off the ground and your limbs are just flung backwards.
595:53
Speaker A
It's like he was being pulled up through his core and everything else was just flailing backwards.
595:59
Speaker A
Was he But he was on the couch. Well, he started on the couch. He started on the couch and then and then he kind of like got pulled forward.
596:07
Speaker A
No, up. He was up in the air with his limbs hanging. Okay. So, he was sitting down and then he just started to to levitate. How how high up off of the of the couch did did couple of feet.
596:20
Speaker A
Okay. Sorry. I just wanted to to get a little bit more detail on on what the uh what the scene kind of looked like, but continue. Feel free to continue.
596:29
Speaker A
Well, I you know, I knew enough that we're not going to do an actual exism on his turf. So, I just said, "We're done here." And I, you know, in the name of Jesus, I commanded you to stop. He fell
596:39
Speaker A
back down on the couch. Uh, he ca he came back. He was present to me, the person, the young man, and I said, you know, we're going to have to do this at at my church because, you know, this I
596:50
Speaker A
this isn't the right place to do this sort of thing. Again, intimate setting like the like Father Dan Hill is interacting with him beforehand. It would be pretty visibly obvious whether or not like whether or not he was being like pulled up by a
597:00
Speaker A
rope somehow on the roof or something like that. So like, so again, it seems like the natural is again going to have to define that. Okay, father Dan Rehill is just lying. I guess my senior Steven Rosetti is lying. Same with father
597:12
Speaker A
Vincent Lampert. Same with, you know, all those police officers and, you know, the government reports, you know, like the nurses and the exorcist and Latoya Ammons. Yeah. Like the hospital staff for the Latoya Emmens case. And then also like Dr. Richard
597:25
Speaker A
Gallagher, he's a liar, too. See, you just go through and it's like again again a lot of these are just like extensive complex multimodal interactions in intimate settings in totally perceptually conducive circumstances with the possessed individuals. Next up we are going to um
597:40
Speaker A
Dave Vanvinkle who is a lay assistant in exorcisms. He serves as a holder and he's been doing that since he was 16. He is now in his 40s.
597:48
Speaker A
Have you seen in the room stuff that would convince you this is absolutely real?
597:52
Speaker A
Oh yeah. In fact, I would say um I mean it's an angst that I feel too that other people feel, right? Like I wish I wish more people could see what I've seen because I feel like it's a grace. You
598:03
Speaker A
know, there are things that I've seen that exorcist have seen that you just there's not any other way to describe it than something pre-ternatural.
598:11
Speaker A
And I would say like to those people who demand the videos and the proof and things like that, like exorcism is an intimate ministry, right? I mean, these people are suffering deeply. And so, if you were to see one, you would not be
598:25
Speaker A
thinking, I should take a video here and show everyone what's going on. You just feel terrible for these people. But yeah, certainly. I mean, honestly, Ryan, in the first case I was ever a part of, I saw all the things you would you would
598:39
Speaker A
think of like from the movies, you know, um at least the things that actually happened. And so I was just like in awe, not so much of the devil, but in the power of the church really, you know.
598:51
Speaker A
Okay. Well, I'm gonna obviously have to follow up there. Uh, Senator, could you please outline the uh descriptions of the said events that uh have happened that you have have witnessed?
599:03
Speaker A
Sure. Well, you know, I mean, I'm sure you've talked about this extensively, like the the four signs of possession, the like clairvoyance, pre-ternal physical abilities, uh, knowledge of unlearned languages, and aversion to the sacred. And in that first case, I saw
599:17
Speaker A
all of those things. In fact, the reason I knew something was actually going on is it was just during a a a somebody a priest was praying for a woman for healing. She was probably like 70 years old. She was couldn't have been more
599:30
Speaker A
than 110bs. and she ran up onto the altar and pulled this brass candlestick and just bent it into a horseshoe like it was nothing, you know? And it was like, "Oh, okay.
599:40
Speaker A
Well, that's not normal, right?" Like that this isn't happening. And and I mean, I I would even say like I'm a big guy. I've worked in security my whole life. I worked as a bouncer. Like I've seen people on PCP and stuff like that.
599:53
Speaker A
This was nothing like that, you know? Like this lady, it was like it was paper, you know? It was nothing. And uh it was just a shocking I'll tell you what what happens uh as far as clairvoyance all the time. It's
600:06
Speaker A
terrible. It's a horribly embarrassing story. So, when I was 5 years old, I went to the Natural History Museum and I stole a rubber pterodactyl. And it's pretty common for me to walk into these cases and for the demon or the person
600:20
Speaker A
who's possessed to look right at me and be like, "Do you remember when we stole that rubber pterodactyl?" And it's like, you know, it's just to mess with me like to say like I like I know all about you
600:30
Speaker A
basically, right? Like I And this is not a public story that they I mean now no no no.
600:36
Speaker A
Have you ever seen levitation or anything like that? Yeah. Sure. Sure. Anybody who's been doing it this Yeah. Yeah.
600:45
Speaker A
Now when you mean do you mean just contorting in an angle like uh Michael Jackson and Smooth Criminal where it's just a really cool dance move or do you mean violation of natural law?
600:53
Speaker A
No, I mean I mean I mean like imagine eight guys holding someone over a holy water font trying to get them down for baptism and they're they cannot get them down to the font like I mean that that's what I mean I
601:12
Speaker A
mean fullon levitation like you could take your arm and put it under them like it's not Yeah like like where they crawl up a wall and and Ryan I mean you you cut out what you want to cut out but
601:24
Speaker A
like when I talk about this stuff like I get nervous because I just want to make sure like everyone realiz realiz like I've never walked away being like, whoa, the devil's like power is amazing. I've always walked away thinking the power of
601:36
Speaker A
the priesthood is incredible. You know, the power of God is incredible. So God loves to use secondary causes. Okay, that's that's one thing that's big in Catholicism. Okay, God loves to use secondary causes. And so it's really common that angels and saints intervene
601:53
Speaker A
in in these cases. And there's two two instances in particular that really stood out to me. And the first is this.
602:01
Speaker A
I was doing an intake uh for this poor kid. He was 18 years old. Had everything going for him. But all of a sudden started to have all these problems. And when he came to see me, his his uncles
602:14
Speaker A
were these two huge firemen. And he was like being held between them. And I mean, he was just screaming the f. He was so mad that they were bringing him in, you know.
602:24
Speaker A
just super angry. And usually what I do if I'm in person with an intake is I'll ask them a lot of mundane questions to get them to calm down and then I'll kind of sneak in a zinger. So I was like
602:36
Speaker A
getting him to calm down. I was like, "Do you play sports?" And he was finally calming down and able to answer. How do you do in school? Blah blah blah. And I asked him like eight or nine questions
602:46
Speaker A
like that that no one would be offended by. And then I just really quickly said, "Uh, Jonathan, like, do you know how much God loves you?" And I mean, before his uncles could move, before I could even blink, he had gotten away from them
603:03
Speaker A
and he had gotten this vase and broke it. And I mean, it had to have been it had to have been less than a second. He had it up to my throat. And I thought, "This guy's going to kill me." You know,
603:16
Speaker A
this kid's going to kill me. I could see his eyes and you could only see the whites of his eyes. I knew what was exactly was going on. And all of a sudden, he just looked in terror above
603:26
Speaker A
me and he looked back down at me and he said, "If that little uh if that little expletive from Italy weren't or from Luca weren't behind you, I'd have killed you 3 seconds ago." And I thought, "What the heck? That's so weird." You know, I
603:43
Speaker A
had no idea. So we admitted him for exorcism and every time I'd walk in the room all of a sudden he'd start talking about this little uh you know expletive from Luca Italy and I'm thinking what is going on you know and finally the
603:59
Speaker A
exorcist got annoyed and was like in the name of Jesus Christ I command you to tell me who this person is that keeps walking in when Dave walks in. And finally after like 15 minutes of commanding this demon the demon says
604:10
Speaker A
Gemma Golgani. Gemma Golgani. At the time, I had no idea who Gemma Goggani was, but she's a a major saint that shows up during exorcisms who was from Luca, Italy. She was this young girl who she's what we call a victim soul. She
604:25
Speaker A
offered up all her sufferings for others to to go to heaven. And I I would I would say like those kind of situations, she's probably intervened to save my life on several occasions where I'm just like this is I would never believe this
604:41
Speaker A
if someone was telling me this story. Like if a friend was telling me this, I wouldn't believe I'm the skeptic. I am the most skeptic person.
604:49
Speaker A
But this happened to me and it was just unbelievable to think like wow uh the people who have gone before us want to help, you know, and God loves using secondary causes. The second case was um I I always cry when I talk about this
605:03
Speaker A
case because it just really there's this girl who um this priest uh who was exercising was a Dominican theologian and he had this really deep devotion to St. Joseph and this girl had been abused by her father in every way possible and actually the
605:20
Speaker A
father her father her biological father had traffked her amongst his friends. I mean, it was just a horrific thing.
605:28
Speaker A
And she ended up in the porn industry. She ended up on coke and some major drug addiction. Well, when she went to um like a a center to get rid of her drug addiction. Okay. Um which in any other
605:43
Speaker A
day my brain would remember what that's called, but for some reason my brain's not working. Um she met another person who was from the porn industry, this other girl. And the other girl said, "I'm so glad you're here. I want to tell
605:55
Speaker A
you about Jesus Christ. Well, she had this massive conversion as she was cleaning up, getting sober. Okay?
606:04
Speaker A
And at that time, unbeknownst to her, her dad was in prison dying of cancer.
606:10
Speaker A
And the prison chaplain was talking to him every day about Jesus. And he had a conversion. And he wrote her a letter saying, "I'm so sorry for everything I've ever done." But it never got to her. So she moved in with her aunt who
606:23
Speaker A
she found and they were Catholics. They brought her to church one day and she just went ballistic. Absolutely ballistic. They put her in like a psych ward. The psych ward says, "We don't think this is mental. Like we're seeing
606:37
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things that we don't want to deal with." Eventually she was admitted for exorcism. And and this case was going on years. I was part of it for years. It was terrible. Weekly exorcisms for years. And one day, almost like in a
606:52
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frustrated way, Father Paul was like, you know, there's got to be something we're not thinking of. There's got to be something. Is there anything you're not telling us? And she said, he said, "Have you forgiven your father?" And she said,
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"I'll never forgive my father." And I don't know if it was her or the demon, but she said, "I'll never forgive him for what he's done." And knowing her well, I knew her well. In my mind, I was
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like, "Yeah, I don't know if I would either." You know, I mean, it was the most horrific story.
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and he knelt down and he said, "St. Joseph, please intercede for us. You're Jesus's foster father. Please intercede for us and give us the grace of being able to forgive our fathers and all those who have wronged us." And the door
607:31
Speaker A
of this room opened up. It was bizarre. And she looked at the door and I could tell she was seeing something, but I couldn't see anything. And all of a sudden, there was a chair right next to her. She started having a conversation
607:45
Speaker A
with somebody in this chair. And after about 3 minutes, I could tell just from context of her part of the conversation that she was talking to her dad. She was talking to her dad.
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Speaker A
Her dad had died of cancer in prison. And basically at the end of this conversation, she said, "I'm I'm sorry, too, and and I wish I wish I had seen you before you died." And she just started sobbing, just
608:11
Speaker A
sobbing and sobbing. and she said, "I I totally and completely forgive you." And all of a sudden like she was fine. Like there was just peace in the room. And she was totally with it and she was like, you know, still
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Speaker A
crying, but we were like, you know, kind of coaxing her out of that. And the exorcist said, "What happened? You know, what did you see?" And she said, "An old man with a ca with a like a walking
608:38
Speaker A
stick brought my father into the room. And my father got down on his knees and begged me for forgiveness and apologized for everything he had done and I was able to forgive him. And she said, "At one point, the demons tried to get into
608:52
Speaker A
our conversation and the old man with the stick just held up his hand and they were completely silent and ran away." And it was like the most amazing moment of just total and complete. I don't know. It was just beautiful, you know.
609:07
Speaker A
It was just beautiful. And um I don't know, it it's always stood out to me as like one of the more beautiful things that's ever happened in exorcism.
609:23
Speaker A
And he said like, "Look, Dave, like this kid is actively trying to get back to the cult. Like we got to do this." So I went and we were at this little retreat center in the middle of town.
609:32
Speaker A
And there were like two nuns there, three priests there, me and then the parents in the room. And as soon as the exorcism started, this kid, he showed all the signs of possession. I mean, it was just like like the movie stuff, you know,
609:45
Speaker A
that people want to hear about. And it went all day and probably like 7:30 at night. So we had gone from math time in the morning at 8 until like 7:30 at night. We were all just exhausted. I
609:58
Speaker A
was just sweating, you know, just it was terrible. Um, he started like screaming this kid and it was like a low pitched scream. That's the only way I could describe it. But it was so awful like everyone in the room like was like
610:14
Speaker A
suffering from this. And the mom actually left and I could hear it was just a small little retreat center. So I could hear her pull away in her car and I thought, well, this is weird. like this mom just left this kid in the
610:26
Speaker A
middle of this, you know, she and drove away. And the screaming continued. And finally, I was like, "We got to we got to stop and start again in the morning." So, I said to the priest like, "Let's let's end and let's be done. Like, this
610:40
Speaker A
is too much. Like, you know, we're all tired." So, he was kind of trying to get him out of this trance. He was like saying his name, Michael. Michael.
610:49
Speaker A
Well, about 20 minutes later, still screaming, right? All of a sudden, we hear a car pull up and his mom comes back. This is so weird. And she had this icon of of a guardian angel. And so she
611:05
Speaker A
walked in and she goes, "Michael, I brought your angel." And I saw him look at it. I could see his eyes roll forward and look at this guardian angel. And I thought that that's weird. Like all of a
611:14
Speaker A
sudden all of a sudden he came too a little bit. And then his eyes rolled back again and the priest prayed for the intercession of the guardian angels.
611:24
Speaker A
Well, all of a sudden like the the low pitch scream stopped. And I mean this is going to no one's going to believe this story, but basically this guy opened his mouth and I could hear you could hear
611:37
Speaker A
like a choir singing out of his mouth. Like a beautiful choir singing in like some other language. I have no idea if it was human or what, but it was so beautiful. We were just crying, you know, just crying. And at
611:52
Speaker A
one point, one voice kind of singles itself out and starts singing in English and was singing like basically like the Psalms, you know, the beautiful deeds of the Lord. And got into a point where he was singing like, "No longer shall his
612:05
Speaker A
servant be oppressed. No longer shall the servant be enslaved, but today he shall go free." And it just ended. And I mean, it was so beautiful. Literally, we were all just crying and he was just sitting there and
612:18
Speaker A
he was silent and I kind of like tapped the priest on the shoulder and I said to command it to tell you who it is. And he said, "In the name of Jesus Christ, I command you to tell me your name." And
612:30
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he said, "I am the angel of God that stands before his throne for this little one. Tonight is the night of his of his uh chains breaking." And when he did that, Michael made the sign of the cross, his eyes rolled forward, and he
612:45
Speaker A
was freed completely. This one session, it turns out that this like when he went through like his rebellious phase, he always for some reason kept this angel in his bathroom.
612:57
Speaker A
Like he loved it. It was it was a gift from his godparents at baptism. And for whatever reason, he always loved this this icon of this angel. And it was like that little scrap of grace that God used, you know, to deliver him. It was
613:12
Speaker A
amazing. Yeah, it was an incredible story. Okay, so let's get on to objections and vindicatory implications. Okay, you know, of course, the biggest objection is like, why isn't this captured on video or camera? Huh? Deon. Well, I have
613:23
Speaker A
five responses to that. First, by hypothesis, demons are personal entities with their own plans. It wouldn't be too surprising if one of their plans was to try to remain as secretive and hidden as possible at a time when most of us are
613:34
Speaker A
deadened to the supernatural. After all, sort of the Christian story, Satan wants you not to believe in supernatural phenomena. It's when God compels them to manifest for the sake of eventual deliverance that they do so. And heck, they're literal human beings who avoid
613:47
Speaker A
photos and videos like the plague and even who often times avoid other human beings like the plague. And nevertheless, concerning whom we have abundant testimonial evidence, but no photographic or videographic evidence.
613:55
Speaker A
This is not a bizarre psychological posit. And there are non-silly reasons we can glimpse for why demons would be like this. Like I'm sorry to tell you, but by hypothesis, they want you to remain dead in your sins, right? They
614:06
Speaker A
want you to disbelieve in God and the supernatural. They love it when people repudiate God in the supernatural. So why would we expect them to put on a show for cameras? Second, the hiddenist model of God's activity in the world
614:15
Speaker A
helps explain the relative posity of photos and videos. The hidden model says that in disclosing himself to humans through natural and supernatural revelation, God's general motus operandi is epistemically fine-tuned to provide enough objective evidence to make belief rationally obliged and enough counter
614:29
Speaker A
evidence and kind of evidential ambiguity to preserve the psychological possibility of doubt. Now note that this is a general moit. It allows for exceptions and also you know it's talking about the level of objective evidence out there. So that's evidence
614:41
Speaker A
that's out there and available even if it's not like subjectively appropriated or appreciated by someone or even known about by someone. Now I think the hiddenist model is independently plausible under theism because the posited mo enables many profound goods.
614:53
Speaker A
The level of obscurity that it posits facilitates sincere seeking after God and his church. It preserves the freedom of the ascent of faith. It enables dialogue and love across deep ideological barriers. It provides opportunities for us to help each other
615:03
Speaker A
spiritually and intellectually to come to like know about God and the true religion which can in turn reap eternal benefits because arguably that can prove our relationships with one another for all of eternity. And moreover the hiddenness model falls naturally out of
615:13
Speaker A
many biblical passages which I won't get into here. If you want to look into that you can see my veritatus blender post with Noah on Fatima. But given the hiddenness model, I don't think it should be too surprising that there
615:23
Speaker A
isn't like clear or demonstrative photographic or videographic evidence for demons because that would arguably at least start to compromise the goods appealed to in the hidden model that are enabled by a level of obscurity to the supernatural and prednatural realm.
615:33
Speaker A
Third, exorcism is a ministry of healing and the church has wisely adopted a policy of no photographs or videos during exorcism sessions to preserve the privacy of victims. It's actually extremely humiliating for the victims and it often involves extreme suffering
615:44
Speaker A
in highly intimate environments. So there's a strong discouragement to photographs and videos in the ministry to begin with. Whether or not you agree with the policy, it is a policy, right?
615:53
Speaker A
So maybe you might disagree. You might be like, "Oh, but you know, you come on church. Like you could have photographs and you could just like blot out the faces or something like that, right? But even if you disagree with it, it is a
616:03
Speaker A
fact that it is a policy. And the fact that the policy is in place, regardless of whether you agree with it, does make a relative posity of photographic and videographic evidence at least less surprising. And it's not just the church
616:12
Speaker A
who has this policy or MO. You know, lots of other people see this as a ministry of healing where, you know, you're not just going to want to like take out a camera or something like that. And this in turn will temper the
616:20
Speaker A
evidential force of the objection. Fourth, as we've seen, there are a limited number of evidentially relevant photographs, though you'll just write them off anyway. I've also privately corresponded with an exorcist who has shown me private photographs and videos
616:30
Speaker A
that corroborate his testimony to predatural manifestations, but I'm not allowed to say more than that. This person uses them for um internal purposes. So and again the fact that there are a limited number of evidentially relevant photographs that's
616:41
Speaker A
consistent with the hiddenness model because you know unless you already believe in God or the prednatural like you dear listener probably don't even believe those photographs are real. So their evidential force doesn't psychologically compel at least in general and so like the general
616:51
Speaker A
obscurity still seems to be preserved but you can't pretend like there's no circumstantial objective evidence that corroborates overwhelming convergent direct eyewitness testimonies soon after the fact. So like we're not talking like decades after the fact where there's time for like you know social contagion
617:05
Speaker A
and memory distortion and things like that. And finally like let's just compare the evidential force here. On the one hand probably millions of people across cultures, time periods and socioeconomic classes have been repeatedly and systematically wrong about basic and perceptually obvious
617:19
Speaker A
features of their environments including multimodal experiences in large group settings across a diverse array of environments.
617:26
Speaker A
or or there's like the biggest like lying conspiracy that you can imagine among like groups of people and like government reports and police etc. which that I mean that doesn't seem plausible or maybe there's some reason either one
617:40
Speaker A
we can glimpse or one we're currently unaware of why either one god doesn't generally permit decisive photographic or videographic evidence of prednatural phenomena or two maybe there's some reason when we can glimpse or when we're currently unaware of why demons don't
617:50
Speaker A
generally want to perform for the camera. Sure, maybe that disjunction is implausible, but it doesn't seem to me to be as implausible as the ludicrous string of gargantuan coincidences and/or conspiracies that you need to posit in order to explain away all the data. And
618:03
Speaker A
again, like I've just combed through and again, I've only given you like I've scratched the surface. I've given you like an infinite decimal sampling of the total range of evidence. I mean, I don't know like go check out some like some of
618:13
Speaker A
the books that are in the resource document. check like actually open instead of deriding these things instead of just like reflexively exercising your skepticism and and deriding them without good grounds to actually dismiss them.
618:24
Speaker A
Force yourself to actually read the testimonies actually listen to what the people are saying. Maybe, just maybe, you have a narrow scope of reality.
618:32
Speaker A
Maybe, just maybe, you are systematically missing a certain domain of phenomena in your theory. And again the point of me bringing up this part on demon I put it later down because you know I don't think it's as as
618:42
Speaker A
evidentially probative as for instance Padre Peio Mirna Nazour Fatima Lords Zetun you go through the list I don't think it's as evidentially probative as those but I do think again it's just like another plank and you know even
618:54
Speaker A
when I was a skeptic by itself it wasn't enough to convince me it was like enough to be like a pebble in the shoe and as I studied it more it started to become like a stone in my shoe and then
619:02
Speaker A
eventually it became like a boulder and I was like h so I'm not actually like positively claiming that this all this testimonial evidence alone should be enough to convince someone who starts out a hardened skeptic or naturalist even though I think like in order for
619:13
Speaker A
them not to be convinced they just have to have an implausably low prior in these phenomena but like quaargumentative plank in my video this alone is not meant to like convince the skeptic alone again this alone is not
619:25
Speaker A
meant to convince the skeptic is just to pile on a further gargantuan string of coincidences I said and conspiracies and whatnot to add to their already like disgusting theory like again at this point like you you guys, just give it
619:36
Speaker A
up. Turning now to vindicatory implications. Of course, you know, this is powerful evidence for one of Catholicism's dogmas, namely the existence of demons. But lots of other religions and sects uh and Christian sects believe in demons. So, that's not
619:46
Speaker A
discriminatory. Still, there are some other evidentially salient testimonial reports. You know, exorcist and deliverance ministers repeatedly testify to the efficacy of holy water and relics in exorcisms. Exorcist and deliverance ministers repeatedly testify to the involvement of saints and Mary in
619:57
Speaker A
exorcisms. I gave like one or two saint stories already involving saintly intercession being efficacious in the removal of demons. Adam Bllye. I don't actually play it later on, but later on I link to in this document right here on
620:08
Speaker A
screen that the patrons have access to. Um, no, but like later on I link to I linked to a video where Adam Bllye just talks about like the manifold ways in which like the blessed mother appears in exorcisms typically near the end where
620:18
Speaker A
just the inner human sees the blessed mother and you know she basically either like casts out the demon or um points and then the demon like leaves or something and she says like it's over or something like that. Sixth, turning to
620:27
Speaker A
the resurrection. I think the case for the resurrection is strong, but it requires extensive buildup. Uh because, you know, I think you probably need to go maximalist or maximalist adjacent to get an argument convincing to a skeptic.
620:38
Speaker A
Um to those of you who don't know like minimalism versus maximalism, the minimal facts approach just tries to like restrict itself to facts that like the vast majority of even critical scholars are going to accept. Like for instance, you know that there were at
620:50
Speaker A
least certain group experiences that the apostles interpreted as experiences as of the risen Christ. At least a lot of critical scholars are willing to grant that the tomb was empty. Um you know that Jesus that Jesus died by
621:00
Speaker A
crucifixion and that like at least a lot of the apostles were willing to die for their beliefs. And then so so the minimalist tries to like use these kind of this just like minimal core of facts to mount a case for the resurrection. I
621:11
Speaker A
mean I think if you've got like Christian friendly prior then then that should work. But uh if you're like talking with a skeptic or a naturalist, they're going to find it more plausible that you know it was just uh you know
621:22
Speaker A
maybe someone stole the body or rearied the body or and you know like yeah the group experiences maybe were initially kind of amorphous and then over the course of decades were kind of as a result of like social contagion and
621:32
Speaker A
memory distortion were kind of just like you know exaggerated and embellished. So I mean I think that's probably what they're going to say. I mean of course I you know I disagree with that but but like in terms of mounting a case against
621:41
Speaker A
them uh I wouldn't want to go minimalist. uh if I if I were to mount a case against them, I would want to go maximalist. Uh which basically argues for like pretty significant reliability of the gospel reports as like being, you
621:52
Speaker A
know, at least for the most part pretty robust like historical reportage either uh given by eyewitnesses themselves or people who like basically rely directly on eyewitnesses and who are like very careful, you know, like historians. And so like to rule out at least by the
622:05
Speaker A
naturalist lights those skeptical explanations, I think you're going to want to go, you know, either maximalist or at least maximalism adjacent. And that just requires extensive extensive buildup. And now others have done extensive buildup precisely to this effect. See for example the work of
622:19
Speaker A
Timothy and Lydia Mcgru, Jonathan Mcclache, testifies YouTube videos, Dan Gros' videos over at Inspiring Philosophy, David Palman's videos over at Faith because of Reason, you know, etc., etc., right? Now, I myself don't have the space or the knowledge to do
622:32
Speaker A
that buildup, you know. So, so sorry. Uh, but you know, I I'll just say a few things in support of the resurrection.
622:38
Speaker A
drawing from Mlache's post on Acts and Luke Acts uh and Jordan Hampton's video on the resurrection. So, this is just like a few kind of just like general comments. You know, people sometimes have a misconception that it's like
622:47
Speaker A
illicit to appeal to the Gospels and Acts as evidence um for the resurrection, but that's just I think confused like we're not assuming Christianity is true by appealing to the gospels. Like we're just simply treating them at the outset as you know just
622:57
Speaker A
different historical reports or biographies of some kind about the life of Jesus of Nazareth. We know in historical grounds that Jesus died by crucifixion. This is not only unanimously reported by all Christian sources, but also by Josephus and
623:06
Speaker A
Tacitus. Shortly afterward, his disciples had experiences that convinced them that Jesus had risen from the dead.
623:11
Speaker A
Paul's undisputed letters, especially Galatians, and 1 Corinthians, indicate that he met Peter, James, and John relatively soon after Jesus's death, probably at most a few years and arguably earlier, and confirmed that they shared the same basic gospel. 1
623:21
Speaker A
Corinthians 15 dates very shortly after the crucifixion and describes appearances to Peter, the 12, more than 500 people, James, the apostles, and Paul himself. So, group experiences that convince people that a man rose from the dead were already reported very shortly
623:31
Speaker A
after the resurrection. that the precise character of these experiential reports only come down to us sometime later, though still within living memory. These testimonies report extensive complex multimodal interactions with the physical risen Christ over the span of 40 days, something that would be pretty
623:44
Speaker A
hard to be honestly mistaken about. Granted, the skeptic might appeal to social contagion, memory distortion, conscious or unconscious exaggeration to explain away the testimonies. That would explain Paul's conversion. You know, that's just like another coincidence that you'll add to your theory. Um, but
623:55
Speaker A
to respond fully, you know, I I do think we'd probably want to show that the Gospels in Acts, the latter of which records oodles of miracles wrought in Christ's name, by the way. So, it would be highly evidentially significant if
624:06
Speaker A
that can be demonstrated to be like super reliable on historical grounds. But anyway, to like to respond fully to this kind of skeptical response, I think we would want to show that the Gospels in Acts are actually like pretty highly
624:14
Speaker A
reliable historical reports of what the original eyewitnesses said. And that's where like undesigned coincidences and very striking historical accuracies come in. Um, Mlache serves no fewer than 40 undesigned coincidences between acts and and only four Pauline epistles. And by
624:26
Speaker A
the way, you know, undesigned coincidences are basically just like incidental points at which independent accounts surprisingly illuminate one another or like make sense of one another or kind of like interlock or harmonize or corroborate one another since there's strong evidence that Axe
624:36
Speaker A
was not simply copying Paul's letters. Ar argues with Mlache. Axe author was very likely well informed and close to the events he narrates. Also, Axe nails striking historical details to a tea.
624:45
Speaker A
Some of the examples that um Mlache gives I think are um Paul's switch from tentmaking to full-time preaching in Corinth is just like casually explained by the letters Timothy's and I'm not going to go to these in significant
624:55
Speaker A
depth again I don't have like the requisite uh background of knowledge and expertise to be able to very confidently pronounce on these matters but um based on you know a reconstruction of Mlachi's uh examples we got you know Paul's
625:05
Speaker A
switch from tentmaking to full-time preaching in Corinth is casually explained by the letters Timothy's oddly uncertain arrival at Corinth fits Acts perfectly acts repeatedly gets obscure local titles and administrative details Right. Acts 27 displays remarkably accurate knowledge of ancient
625:17
Speaker A
Mediterranean sailing, sea roots, geography, winds, shipwreck conditions. Josephus indep Josephus independently illuminates otherwise puzzling details in Acts. Luke also gets like difficult first century Judan details, right, which we've like come to discover later match like first century inscriptions,
625:32
Speaker A
you know, etc. And this matters first because, you know, there are lots of miracle reports in Acts whose occurrence would provide very strong evidence for the resurrection. But it also matters because, you know, Acts we passages indicate that its author traveled with
625:40
Speaker A
Paul. Um, Acts also places him with Paul in Jerusalem when James uh and the Jerusalem elders were present and in proximity to Jerusalem during Paul's two years cesarian imprisonment. So, you know, Luke, the author of Acts, was very
625:49
Speaker A
well positioned to know what Paul and the original Jerusalem leadership were claiming about the resurrection. So, again, like the point is to situate Luke in like a very good position to know what like the original eyewitnesses were basically saying. Unclaimed eyewitness
626:00
Speaker A
status displays intimate knowledge of pre70 Jerusalem, Jewish customs, geography names times places and numbers and interlocks incidentally with the synoptics in various ways. The other gospels enjoy undesigned coincidences too, but you know, you get the point.
626:10
Speaker A
Like we do have reason to think the gospels and acts are like reliable historical reports from diligent authors who either were or relied upon direct eyewitnesses which makes honest distortions and exaggerations much less plausible especially given the character
626:21
Speaker A
of the experiences reported again like 40 days on end like interacting with this dude all the time complex multimodal experiences in groups at the like at the very least I think like you know the naturalist is going to have to
626:32
Speaker A
like yet again posit some like like you know some pretty implausible coincidences I the coincidences here would not make me as anywhere near as uncomfort uncomfortable as the you know the disastrous conspiracy theory or bizarre string of coincidences that I'd
626:46
Speaker A
have to posit for like Padre Pio, Mir Nazour Fatima Zetun Lords Eucharistic Miracles, etc., I'd be much more uncomfortable in those cases. But, you know, I'd still be shifting in my seat a little bit if I uh if I were a
626:56
Speaker A
naturalist and I'm just, you know, looking at this this evidence. Also, as noted, within a few years, Paul converted after an experience as of the risen Christ despite, you know, previously being like a massive persecutor of Christians. Just like
627:06
Speaker A
another coincidence you sprinkle in. And oh, and by the way, like there's no way the disciples were lying. I mean, they faced intense persecution. They were evidently willing to die. We know that some of them did, in fact, die painful
627:15
Speaker A
deaths as martyrs. They also didn't derive wealth or fame or power from their preaching. The conspiracy required to maintain the lie would also be like pretty large. And the tomb, Jesus's burial is reported in very early independent sources, for example, 1
627:27
Speaker A
Corinthians 15 and Mark. And you'll probably posit another coincidence here, like someone stole or rearied the body.
627:31
Speaker A
Um, again, like this video, this segment of the video alone is not meant to convince a skeptic. Let me just say that. Um, it's meant to show that there is reasonable evidence for the resurrection. And to avoid it, we do
627:42
Speaker A
need a strange coincidence of individual coincidences that all suspiciously point in the direction of a resurrection.
627:48
Speaker A
Right? The resurrection offers a unified explanation of all the data. If no resurrection occurred, we have multiple strange group experiences that somehow convinced a bunch of people that a man rose from the dead. bizarre subconscious mechanisms that convinced people very
627:59
Speaker A
close to the facts that they or those they know had repeatedly multimotally interacted with a physical man for 40 days happening to coincide with an empty tomb in turn happening to coincide with a hallucination in Paul that made him
628:10
Speaker A
completely reorient his life again like you can say all of that but it's another string of coincidences to add to the shamefully voluminous library that naturalism acquires and not just coinc like conspiracies like naturalism is like a grand conspiracy theory you know
628:23
Speaker A
vindicator implications of the resurrection I mean you know Christianity is true Christ his lord of course. But let's move on to number seven. The final section, miraculous artifacts. I sort of reserved I think like maybe like still pretty evidential,
628:36
Speaker A
but I guess like the least evidential of the miraculous case that I want to make.
628:41
Speaker A
I sort of reserved those for these later sections. Um, and so like for this miraculous artifact section, like all I'm going to say is that listen, I have some higher order evidence from people whose intellects I highly respect that
628:50
Speaker A
the shroud and Guadalupe Tilma are plausibly miraculous, but I'm not actually going to claim that here. I just haven't done enough research. I do have some evidence for their authenticity. Um, and I also have similar high order evidence that there's
629:00
Speaker A
good first order evidence for saintly and corruption miracles, you know, from someone I trust who has looked into this to some extent. I myself just haven't really looked into the first order evidence here. Um, to at least to defend
629:09
Speaker A
them, you know, enough to be like to put them as like distinct portions of the video that I'll like dedicate um, you know, argumentation toward. Still, I think they deserve an honorable mention and I'll put some links in the resource
629:19
Speaker A
document for you to dive into these further. Now, of course, you know, like you'll have the obvious objection to the shroud from carbon dating. Um, but you know, like they often times have various responses to the carbon dating point.
629:28
Speaker A
Like first, the raw data for the radiocarbon dating was only recently released for public scrutiny within the last decade. And it turns out that like apparently there's heterogeneity in the samples sent off for laboratories. Like radio the radiocarbonage is not
629:37
Speaker A
consistent between the samples and apparently there's like a consistent skew. Um, and that at least indicates that like something funk is going on.
629:44
Speaker A
Second, there's apparently independent evidence that the samples taken for radiocarbonating are not representative of the rest of the cloth. Like other testing, for example, UV testing. I think I've been told at least shows important differences between the sampled region and the rest of the cloth
629:55
Speaker A
suggestive of something suggestive of some kind of at least anomalous influence. And third, apparently there's independent evidence that the shroud dates back much further than the Middle Ages. Apparently, I want to look into this stuff. Apparently, the following is
630:06
Speaker A
true. Apparently, it pollen profile indicates long stays in Jerusalem and the Byzantine Empire, which which independently corroborates early changes in Byzantine iconography, which suspiciously started matching the man on the shroud. Its blood stains exhibit many points of congruence with the blood
630:17
Speaker A
stains on the Sudarium of Ovada, which we know dates back well before the middle medieval period. Apparently, you know, I've heard that its weave pattern is not medieval. Various features of the Bill Rubin filled blood stains and anatomical proportions make a medieval
630:26
Speaker A
fraud extremely unlikely, etc. Apparently, um Rucker's neutron radiation hypothesis also like predicts a medieval date for the shroud, but again, I haven't looked into this. And also, you know, there's tons of debate about this stuff and I I don't intend to
630:38
Speaker A
take a first order position on the dispute here. Although, you know, it is interesting that the same rare AB blood type is found on the shroud, the Sudarium of Ovio, the blood of the Lion Eucharistic miracle, the flesh of the
630:46
Speaker A
Laiana Eucharistic miracle, and the Tixly Eucharistic miracle. Like, does seem pretty wild. Oh. Oh, and I think also on the the tunic of Argential, I think that's also AB. So, okay, like, you know, this is another thing that's
630:57
Speaker A
just like, you know, these are interesting things. I have some higher order evidence in their favor. Even though like on the first order level, like you know, you could pro you could probably describe me as agnostic right now. But even like agnosticism, even
631:06
Speaker A
like a non-trivial credence here will just like help to bolster the case. And I also have some high order evidence that there's good evidence for um saintly and corruption miracles. But again, but again, I just haven't looked into that enough to comment. I'm going
631:17
Speaker A
to remain officially agnostic. Okay. So, let's summarize the miraculous case. Learning about all of this caused me massive cognitive dissonance. Like when I take all the evidence cumulatively, when I lay it bare before my eyes, like am I seriously going to embrace like
631:42
Speaker A
the craziest set of frauds and conspiracies and coincidences that all just happen to point consistently in one direction? In one direction. Come on.
631:53
Speaker A
Come on. We got like the saintly miracles, right? So, we got Padre Peio, like the overwhelming evidence of his stigmata that like seven doctors came and looked at him. He has the odor of sanctity that like thousands of people
632:02
Speaker A
attest to, including tons of people who weren't primed at all concerning the odor of sanctity. He had his hypothermia where like all you have to do is literally look and see whether or not the thermometer says 125. Not something
632:12
Speaker A
that you're easily mistaken about. Oh, and this happens like with what like probably dozens of different doctors using different instruments sometimes in succession. And then he's got healing miracles. So someone's like eye is like literally regenerating in like a kind of
632:22
Speaker A
utterly unprecedented multi-organ system failure was rapidly resolving. Oh, and then you know you can basically like read people's hearts and tell them their secret mortal sins and so on. And then we go on to Mir Nazour and basically
632:30
Speaker A
like copious amounts of anomalously behaving oil are like spontaneously exuding from her hands, chest, neck, face, and tons of paper icons and paper holy cards right in front of people's eyes. A lot of which is captured on photo and video etc. She's also having
632:44
Speaker A
like the stigmata which are like forming little rosy bumps, not wounds, rosy bumps before to kind of pre-announce them. And then they like are opening in front of groups of witnesses where they're like very emphatic that like yeah, I saw them spontaneously open with
632:55
Speaker A
no one inflicting them. And then she's also got the odor of sanctities. It's just that like her room or her house are like being filled with like this beautiful fragrant scent when she's receiving communion. And then she's like
633:05
Speaker A
having all these ecstasies where she no longer responds to external stimuli on like a repeated predictable schedule on religiously significant dates where from within them she has like super coherent multimodal experiences of the blessed virgin Mary and Christ and then comes
633:17
Speaker A
out of it and is like totally normal immediately afterwards and and then the wounds like healing anomalously and like super rapidly. And then you go to Adam Blly stigmatist who has like the stigmata and the mystical experiences again like every Thursday and Friday. He
633:28
Speaker A
goes Cutino. He got like hundreds of folios and like sworn depositions and whatnot like within just like a few months of his death and then like four years later and then like 15 years later by like his own confessor you know he's
633:39
Speaker A
being seen like indoors outdoors to people at the upper echelons of society to non-atholics. Non-atholics are literally converting after seeing him.
633:45
Speaker A
And you add all of that healing miracles we got Protestant healings of Barbara Schneider like the instantaneous and permanent decadesl long healing of multiple scerosis uncolapsed lung her blindness is gone. Her deformed hands and feet are corrected. her calf muscle
633:56
Speaker A
is instantaneously restored in the context of hundreds of prayers in a literal religious experience saying get up my child and walk and then Greg Spencer is literally like investigated for fraud and they're like dude like what's going on you like you had
634:07
Speaker A
juvenile macular degeneration like and then he's like instantly healed in the context of prayer and then the investigation for fraud is like oh man like dang it you've got the medical documentation so what am I supposed to do and there are lots of other healings
634:18
Speaker A
happening in Pentecostal services and whatnot and then you go to saintly intercession and like like Matthew Peliser's got like bilateral congenital club foot visibly obvious like all the testimonies are testifying to this.
634:28
Speaker A
We've got pictures of him in his youth and then after the novenas all of his legs are straight so like instantaneously cured club foot where like all the muscles and tons and bones and whatnot are just like rewiring
634:37
Speaker A
themselves in the context of like a religiously significant dream. We've got the spontaneous regeneration of oicles and like again I just went through like only like two cases. There are lots of saints, lots of canonization healing miracles. We could go on and on and on
634:48
Speaker A
on and on. I'm just barely scratching the surface you guys. And then you go to Colondo, we got like sworn affidavit, sworn depositions, we got like the people who amputated him. They're like, "Yeah, this was my patient. I know the
634:59
Speaker A
dude. He was like he was always rubbing stuff on his stump. We got like his neighbors and whatnot." Like immediately before I knew, they're like, "Yeah, I literally rubbed his gut stump." And then he had he had a leg right
635:08
Speaker A
afterwards. And then you go to the personal accounts like the people that I know and who you know if you just like go to questions and ask them like maybe you'll hear accounts of visibly obvious exatic wounds covering someone's arms
635:17
Speaker A
and legs instantaneously disappearing in the context of prayer broken nose healing in 5 seconds and spontaneously moving you like these guy these guys are also in on the conspiracy too like the person that my best friend Noah knows
635:28
Speaker A
like they're in on the conspiracy right you know cuz that was like the broken clavicle that instantaneously regenerated it's like hm and in Ukra categories of miracles in we're just on the healing miracles and then we go to
635:37
Speaker A
marry operations and you're just like slapped repeatedly by Fatima and Zetune and lures etc. And so with Fatima, we got like the apparition phenomena themselves. The children definitely weren't lying. They're not having these group hallucinations. They're not having
635:47
Speaker A
this unprecedented string of delusive transances. We got distant witnesses seeing exactly what we'd expect them to see from their positions in relation to the Kova and like they're all positioned and like converging on the Kova with respect to their descriptions. Like you
635:58
Speaker A
know got the people in Albertale describing the three-fold descent of the sun, exactly what the people at the Kova are saying. We've got hostile witnesses, skeptics, people at Oculo there who like were there to like try to refute it and
636:07
Speaker A
debunk it and they come out later and like, "Okay, yeah, like it happened." Uh, and we've got like 15 out of 15 people who mention clouds, say that they could stare at this object, you know, painlessly at sometimes against a clear
636:16
Speaker A
blue cloudless sky. We have at least one witness and maybe multiple witnesses who distinguish the object from the sun. The thermodynamically impossibly fast drawing which is corroborated by multiple photographs and by like bunches of testimonies. We got an expert in
636:28
Speaker A
photogometric analysis saying like, "Yeah, I've got like dozens of photogometric cues which all converge to this vanishing point which would lead to a non-solar elevation of the thing." And if what he says is correct, then it's just like utterly decisive. And then to
636:40
Speaker A
add sprinkling on top of that, like we've got healings of like blindness and paralysis and and like you know that shortened leg that I mentioned and that's just Fatima. And then we go to Lords and we've got like regenerated
636:49
Speaker A
nervous tissue. We've got paralysis. We've got like instantly stopping morphine without any after effects.
636:54
Speaker A
We've got Wim Dehan's facial ulcers carving into the cartilage of her nose and these massive visibly obvious facial ulcers being suddenly formed over instantaneously with new pink. We got Marie Borell's fistula which were literally like so deep as to spew fecal
637:08
Speaker A
matter immediately beforehand. And then afterhand, just a few hours later, we have photos to them being closed over.
637:14
Speaker A
We have Marie Lmeron's massive leg ulcer, something that's very hard to be wrong about. We've got medical documentation, all this stuff, eyewitness testimony, etc. We got like the apparition phenomenon at Lords as well which I shouldn't neglect. And then
637:24
Speaker A
we go to Zetune. Thousands of convergent testimonies to a three-dimensional lielike luminous female figure engaged in intentional movements. We have medically attested healings of cancer, thyroid disease, blindness, mutness, hypertension, paralysis, hernia, etc. We have similarly convergent testimonies to
637:37
Speaker A
luminous dove-like objects that appear, fly, disappear in anomalous ways. Similarly with billowing clouds of incense. And then just to add to your cognitive dissonance, we sprinkle in like five different eucharistic miracles on different continents in different decades, different investigators. We
637:50
Speaker A
have launch with the utterly unprecedented preservation for like what hundreds of years despite no preservatives AB blood type for the flesh and blood. We got Tixla. We're like inside the host. We're seeing oh what's what's going on here? We have
637:59
Speaker A
human AB blood which just you know happens to match launch and the shroud and the Sudarov. We've got like two blinded laboratory analyses and when you look at you're like oh yeah that's not a bacteria that's not a fillum. And then
638:09
Speaker A
they're finding that the blood is coming from like within the host and you go to Sakulka and then we got like these two scientists who look at it's like yeah this is like literally interwoven the the myofibbrals were interwoven with the
638:17
Speaker A
bread on a microscopic level. And again we go to like we got those two different universities who examined it. We have we have a report from the university at section and again like you can look at the photos I have eyes that's not
638:28
Speaker A
bacteria that's not a fleellum. It's like we got we got photographic and videographic documentation for the taking of the samples. And then you go to Buenos's highace where it's like you know visibly obvious intact white blood cells that you can see on like the
638:39
Speaker A
television that Dr. Lawrence is pointing out after 3 years observers in distilled water. And then of course you know like you know like you look at the sly and it looks basically exactly like what images of mocardial infuction looks like. It's
638:50
Speaker A
like like Catholic priests are like repeatedly praying over bread and then as we got like myio suffering myocardial tissue in there you know which which like shows the signs of being alive but in agony right that's what the white
639:00
Speaker A
blood cell influx. It's like the fragmentation and the degradation and all that stuff. So again like suffering myioardial tissue in bread after priest prays over it. Like what am I supposed to do? What are you supposed to do?
639:11
Speaker A
You're supposed to change your life. That's the point. And then after all that we go to the demonic phenomenon. We got like all these different people. We got like doctors and like police officers and we got like government
639:18
Speaker A
reports and we got like hospital personnel and we got actresses and we got like lay people who assist in the deliverance ministry like testifying to like levitation and hidden knowledge of unknown languages and relics and other sins. We got supernatural changes in
639:28
Speaker A
facial structure, instantaneous changes in the environment such that they become super cold and you can like see your breath and like ice crystals are forming on the wall. Supernatural strength like you could go on and on and on and on and
639:36
Speaker A
on. And then to add on top of all of that already got a kind of shift in your seat with some of the evidence for the resurrection. We have like an empty tomb. We got group experiences. We got
639:43
Speaker A
Paul's conversion. Apostles are willing to die for their beliefs. There are pretty evidentially compelling undesigned coincidences among well situated reporters. And there's some like higher order evidence for like the authenticity of the shroud and the toma and incrupt saints. And so, you know, I
639:54
Speaker A
just look at all this. I lay it bare. I lay it bare. And I'm just like, bro, I think I've lost. I think I've lost. I was trying to fight back, but I think it's a losing battle.
640:08
Speaker A
I think it's a losing battle. And it's the battle's only going to get worse from here. There are lots of more canonization healing miracles. There's lots of more research coming out soon on Fatima. There's lots more research coming out soon on Ma Nazour. There's
640:22
Speaker A
lots more research coming out soon on Lords. We're at just the beginning. We're at just the beginning. We have just started. Things are going to get even more interesting soon. And again, with a lot of this stuff, I'm just
640:34
Speaker A
scratching the surface. At the very least, suppose you're still not convinced. Why on earth would you deride this data?
640:46
Speaker A
Do you not at least see how someone could find it compelling? Do you not at least see how someone can look at this and be like, "Oh man, there really is a lot of evidence here that I'm going to have to pretty
641:01
Speaker A
implausibly explain away." Do you not just feel that deep in your bones? Are you not scared in the slightest that maybe you're wrong? That you're betting your life, your eternity on often times frauds and coincidences and lying hypotheses and hypotheses that people
641:21
Speaker A
are lying for which you have no independent evidence. I would have a lot of cognitive dissonance in that situation. And again, so like when I look at all this, when I lay it bear before my eyes, I think you know where
641:30
Speaker A
I'm going. There's there's an obvious unifying explanation here of the data. A particular brand of Christianity seems to be manifestly vindicated. God seems to be very excited about a particular sect of Christianity such that he's repeatedly gone out of his way to put
641:47
Speaker A
his miraculous stamp of approval of specific divine legates or specific divine messages. Right? We're not just talking about oh you know it happened in a a Muslim context or a Protestant context, right? So like in the context of a Protestant service or even like you
642:02
Speaker A
know Pentecostals where they go um to like Indonesia for instance and they do they do healing miracles. Yes. But they're not calling forth those miracles in witness to and in confirmation of Pentecostal distinctives. They're not for instance saying like oh yeah well I
642:19
Speaker A
don't know what's a Pentecostal distinctive. I'm sorry that's not coming to mind. But you know we don't it's not like we're finding a case where it's like I'm a purported divine leate. I've received private revelations. I'm claiming to speak on behalf of God that
642:30
Speaker A
the papacy is false and in witness to this private re revelation I hereby call forth a sign a divine sign get up my child you know get up and walk and then you know the like the paralytic walks and it's
642:44
Speaker A
demonstrabably naturalistically inexplicable that's not the sort of thing that we have where although yes miracles definitely happen in Pentecostal contexts in Muslim contexts in all different sorts of contexts God compassionates He likes healing people, etc. And if you pray to God to the
643:00
Speaker A
creator and even if you know you're you're promulgating the gospel, God will go out of his way to perform healings in Jesus's name or in the name of the gospel. But preaching the gospel, preaching Christ, even if that happens
643:10
Speaker A
in a Pentecostal context does not mean that Pentecostal distinctives are being vindicated, that's very different from Mary showing up and saying, "I am the immaculate conception." And then God going out of his way to manifestly supernaturally vindicate that. or or
643:25
Speaker A
like Jesus, you know, appearing to MNA and saying things like, you know, your suffering is like redeeming the debts of sinners and like like saying, "I want to renew my passion in you and I want you to participate in my suffering." And
643:38
Speaker A
then gracing her with manifest miraculous signs in witness to and in confirmation of and in furtherance of these private revelations that would involve God putting his stamp of approval on a falsehood if you're not Catholic. That's very different from
643:50
Speaker A
miracles happening in a context. I mean, we're going to get into this later, but I I want to emphasize that there is a distinction here. Like, again, we could have had a Protestant vindicator mirror like Martin Luther is publicly appearing
643:59
Speaker A
to hundreds of thousands of people and enjoying them not to pray rosaries. He's saying like, "Don't pray the rosary.
644:04
Speaker A
Don't pray the rosary." And then like he's insisting, "Yeah, protest the Catholic Church." And then, you know, he performs this like gigantic colossal miracle that like 100,000 people see and they're distant witnesses and there's rapid drawing. There's like
644:13
Speaker A
photogometric analysis and they're like staring at the object and they're like painless to stare at. We could have had that. We could have. We don't. We don't.
644:19
Speaker A
And yes, there are claims of miracles across traditions. Maybe there even claims of vindicatory miracles across traditions, but a claim, as Ethan Muse points out, is very different from what I just went through. Like I've got, you know, we got we got X-rays, we got
644:32
Speaker A
blinded laboratory analyses, we've got like doctor reports, like we have videos of we've like photographs of him, like videos of mirror and like photographs and like, you know, you got like extensive laboratory and scientific testing and and you know, like thousands
644:45
Speaker A
of witnesses to lots of these things. So it's like that's very different from claims. I recogn Yeah, there are claims to things across traditions, but that's very different from what I've just gone through. Like go to another go find
644:56
Speaker A
another sect and try to mount a case as compelling as this that I just gave for Catholicism. I don't think you'll be able to do it. And like again, the miracles themselves again if if you want to say that these are divine
645:06
Speaker A
vindications. They need to be performed in the name of God the creator, right? Like I grant that like yeah Moses and magicians they can do like all these cool fancy signs and whatnot and they can even replicate to like some extent
645:15
Speaker A
some of some of the divine signs that uh God was giving Moses. What ma what matters is whether you're calling forth God the creator on behalf of your puditive revelation or your puditive status as a divine legate. And among
645:27
Speaker A
cases of that where the relevant message concerning which signs are being called forth on behalf of is a doctrine that is inconsistent with Catholicism. That's not the sort of thing that we have for like you know these Pentecostal healing
645:39
Speaker A
miracles. Pent it's not like you know some some famous Pentecostal who died a long time ago is like appearing to Pentecostals is saying like yeah in 3 months I will perform this sign and witness to the revelations that I'm
645:48
Speaker A
giving you and like don't pray the rosary. You know the pope is not the holy father like the papacy is false.
645:52
Speaker A
You know this is a puditive divine revelation. I'm saying this on behalf of God the creator and I hereby predict the sign in three months and then it comes to pass. If I'm in one of those cases, not just healing miracles that occur in
646:00
Speaker A
the context of Pentecostalism or that even lead people to conversion to Pentecostalism, you like that's just their mistaken inference from the fact that a Pentecostal minister performs a healing miracle. It doesn't fall that all their theology is true. Like what
646:11
Speaker A
what are you talking about? Like like some like you know Peter performed miracles after Pentecost. Does that like authenticate his denial of Christ? Like no. And in fact like we know that people will go to Christ and say like Lord Lord
646:21
Speaker A
did we not work miracles in your name? And he's like depart from me. I never knew you. So like those guys certainly had some mistaken beliefs. I mean firstly like one that they were among the elect and just because they were
646:29
Speaker A
performing miracles doesn't mean that those theological beliefs that they had are true. What matters is whether the sign is being called forth in witness to and in confirmation of the specific messages that are purportedly divine revelations. And even if for instance
646:41
Speaker A
like a Catholic witnesses a Pentecostal healing miracle and then converts to Pentecostalism, that's just a mistaken inference on their own. Like like what's the inf like walk me through it? Put put the steps down on paper. Like what?
646:50
Speaker A
Number one, Pentecostal minister performed healing, therefore all of their theological beliefs are true. Like What? That's very different from like Padre Pio for instance where he's claiming that these are divine revelations that he's receiving and then God's going out of his way to manifestly
647:04
Speaker A
vindicate the content of those through for instance you know like you know like infusing into him knowledge about the mortal sins of people you know like saying I unite you to my passion. So like the context of like redemptive
647:14
Speaker A
participatory suffering that you can unite with and offer up to God and in that context then giving him the the manifest miraculous signs. Again, I'll talk about all this stuff later, but like again, the fact that miracles occur
647:24
Speaker A
in different traditions is no threat to my case. The fact that there are miracle claims in Hinduism and you know, Janism or you know, whatever is also no threat to my case. Again, mount a systematic, rigorous, cumulative case with like
647:38
Speaker A
photographs videos medical documentation, etc. analogous to what I just did for those sects. And then we can talk. And also, this is the last thing that I want to end on. The Catholic vindicatory miracles are just manifestly better evidenced than the
647:53
Speaker A
resurrection. Don't get me wrong, I think the evidence for the resurrection is good, but we have what, like four or five sources written by people who are often copying each other verbatim whose authorship and dating are debated. So
648:05
Speaker A
like, you know, four or five 2,000-year-old sources with debatable authorship and debatable dating and like many of them are like copying each other verbatim. Okay, there's that. And then on the other hand like we have extensive contemporaneous photographs, videos,
648:21
Speaker A
blinded laboratory analyses, atheist doctor reports, medical documentation, x-rays, sworn depositions, tens or hundreds of thousands of witnesses, distant witnesses, and on and on and on.
648:31
Speaker A
You cannot accept the resurrection and reject Catholic vindicatory miracles. It'll say more about that
Topics: Catholic miracles stigmatism healing miracles eucharistic miracles Marian apparitions philosophy of miracles vindicatory miracles Joe Schmid Catholic apologetics divine revelation

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