Panelists on BBC's Moral Maze debate whether winning at all costs and self-interest now dominate, referencing Survivor, corporate greed, and moral relativism.
Key Takeaways
- Modern society may reward winning and self-interest at the expense of trust, integrity, and the common good.
- Panelists disagree on whether the problem is greed itself or the cultural framework that removes accountability and moral standards.
- Moral relativism and therapeutic culture are seen by several panelists as undermining the ability to judge right and wrong.
- Rising inequality between the wealthy and the poor is viewed as socially damaging.
What the video covers
- The episode opens by criticizing ITV's Survivor and framing winners like Charlotte and Minks as symbols of a culture where self-interest outweighs the common good.
- Discussion links modern corporate greed, with executives leaving struggling members and shareholders with large payouts, to a broader decline in trust and integrity.
- Gerald Butler argues that greed drives successful capitalist economies and has always done so, citing historical examples such as the South Sea Bubble.
- Claire Fox disputes that winning is fashionable, arguing instead that a culture of moral and cultural relativism now demonizes ambition and competition.
- David Starkey contends that Machiavellian manipulation is not new, and that the distinctive modern problem is the combination of individualism with a rights-based culture that shields people from the consequences of their actions.
- Patricia Morgan attributes modern selfishness to the rejection of objective standards, therapeutic culture, and the need for constant validation and high self-esteem.
- Ted Harrison suggests the shift toward individual freedom is a welcome reaction to past conformity and tribalism, though it has produced a lack of shared moral consensus.
- Panelists debate whether self-interest can be reconciled with morality, with one arguing that pursuing self-interest with just regard for others is a reasonable standard.
- The discussion addresses growing inequality, including the widening gap between rich and poor, and its socially corrosive effects.
- The conversation concludes with unresolved questions about how to make moral judgments without external standards.
Chapters
- 00:00Opening: Survivor and the Culture of Winning
- 02:30Greed, Capitalism, and Historical Precedents
- 08:00Claire Fox on Moral Relativism and Competition
- 13:00David Starkey on Machiavellianism and Consequences
- 19:00Patricia Morgan on Validation and Self-Esteem
- 26:00Ted Harrison on Individual Freedom and Lost Solidarity
- 33:00Morality, Self-Interest, and Inequality
- 39:20Closing Questions on External Standards
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
good evening pound for pound the itv's survivor series seemed to me to be the most expensively pointless piece of television ever shown but even toddle has its uses and shows us something about ourselves the backstabbing little schemer charlotte won virtue had to be
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its own reward manipulating minks walked off with the million in art well as in life winning is increasingly all that matters self-interest is more important than the common good trust and integrity are either antique concepts or the last
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refuge of the naive machiavelli rules so we have the richest bosses and the poorest workers in europe bosses who hide the disastrous way they run big companies for as long as they can even the world's oldest and most respected
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mutual insurance company i speak with some feeling here and then they walk away from their impoverished members and shareholders clutching big payoffs without apparently a thought that this might be somehow dishonorable they've won who cares about the losers
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even winning sometimes not enough the australian cricket team already only have to turn up to wipe out their english opponents in half the allotted time are now taking lessons from a fifth century chinese military strategist it may be as superfluous as a wetsuit in
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the sahara but we live in an age of no quarter for losers where there's less sportsmanship on a cricket pitch than there was on a medieval battlefield so is winning all that matters and even if you shy away from that idea is
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selfish effectiveness better than being a selfless good loser amoral maze live this evening our panel the constitutional historian dr david starkey claire fox from the institute of ideas the former judge gerald butler and the author and broadcaster ted harrison
Speaker A
gerald butler greed is good said the corporate raider in the 1980s film wall street if by that he meant that it's greed that drives those in the successful capitalist economies than his right and so it's always been so walter raleigh sword el dorado the
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south sea bubble made and lost fortunes for many in the upper reaches of society a large income is happiness suggested jane austen a sentiment class to the bosom of those boardroom directors who vote themselves vast bonuses and share
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options in addition to their vast salaries the difference and the only difference between the past and now is that today all can join in the merry-go-round in particular television has opened the door to everybody whatever their state is in society to
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achieve instant celebrity and the riches that go with it that is how it is but but is it good by which i mean is it just i doubt it but i do not know how matters can be changed for the better
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claire fox i actually dispute the idea that winning at all cost is fashionable i think if you want to look at what's fashionable today the new virtue is that we've all got to be losers and if you um
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express a rather keen enthusiasm to win you tend to be demonized as being selfish as indeed this program is suggesting and ruthless and manipulative i rather like charlotte in survivor and she won the million and why not i would
Speaker A
have tried to win too but survivor we shouldn't take reality game shows too seriously because in most of them like big brother you'll find everybody standing around saying i don't want to win any money i don't want to do
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anything and the reason for this is because we live in a period of moral and cultural relativism that basically says that we're not supposed to want to do better than one another or compete with one another and i think that's a
Speaker A
terrible degradation of human achievement david starkey gosh well michael um you very often introduce some unfortunate witness with the words can we proceed to unpack this i would like to unpack your quite extraordinary rant and indeed the two rants which have
Speaker A
preceded me um first of all manipulation of machiavelli is not new why we talk about machiavellianism who comes from the 17th century machiavelli like peter mandelson was also a failure unfortunately peter mandelson was not subject to machiavelli's fate and
Speaker A
tortured but anyway his political career ended in ruin nor is individualism and competition new what is new is a particular sort of rights-based culture in which we are protected from the consequence of our actions and the oddity now is that we
Speaker A
combine on the one hand individualism and the devil take the hindmost with a culture in which you're not allowed to lose and it's the combination of the two so gerald you are right half right and you two claire are right
Speaker A
half right and i need to say i'm holy right five out of ten well do you remember the restaurant at the end of the universe in the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy so the diners could watch the apocalypse and
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have a meal at the same time there was a marvelous creature of evolution the animal who positively wanted to be eaten now try this thick slice of my shoulder it's delicious called a consumer isn't it well it seems what's happened today is
Speaker A
that we've evolved all involved into a state where we positively want to self-destruct millions of people are willing to be manipulated into thinking that winning is all or wearing the latest brand label is essential it's a set of attitudes which has no long-term
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future it's it's very much ephemeral thinking it's not a time today for anyone to be around who wants to plant oak trees for the great grandchildren now winning is a short-term fix allowing yourself to be manipulated by the
Speaker A
advertisers merely provides temporary satisfaction today contemplating consequences and contemplating eternity just isn't cool right thank you panel um uh first witness is patricia morgan sociologist and uh senior research fellow at civitas that uh you may remember as the
Speaker A
institute of economic affairs specializing in family policy if you go along with this rather lengthy uh analysis of uh modern day selfishness what do you put it down to well i think the point was raised that uh there is um there are no external
Speaker A
standards that everybody has to be validated we mustn't be judgmental about anybody there's no criteria of right and wrong and isn't in fact we've got to a stage i think which doesn't apply just to morality it replies to facts out there
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in the world there's no such thing as true or false we're all relativists and we're all relativists we're also all psychological or therapeutic beings we've all got to be validated at every moment we've all got to have high
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self-esteem and i don't think it's a matter of kind of winning of of being the winner it's a matter of being seen to be winning we've got to have our image continually reflected back to us an interesting distinction ted harrison
Speaker A
do you think perhaps that some of the the thinking of today where the individual is at the center the particularly through education perhaps um on notions like child-centered learning uh the liberalism that came about in the sixties and so on is
Speaker A
actually a natural and welcome reaction against the cults of uniformity and uh tribalism and blind obedience which led to the first and second world wars but it also has its own problems doesn't it that you get um lack of a moral
Speaker A
consensus you've got a breakdown of of any codes of behavior you've got a lack of integrity you've got celebration almost of course you have self-esteem put in place of moral courage is that is this is this a good thing
Speaker A
because you're talking really about identification within groups maybe groups fighting each other but within groups you have no solidarity well i was thinking that if the pendulum swung maybe there's room for it to swing back to a certain extent but maybe the
Speaker A
trouble is that we have now got individually more freedom to choose we haven't yet got the experience to know how best to choose this might take a generation or two but it's certainly a much better situation to be in than the
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one that uh was prevalent uh a century ago i'm not certain how do we choose if we've got no external standards how do we judge anything except to say to ourselves right is anything i choose and anything i choose is right but if you're
Speaker A
in a desert desert will evolve uh they might not be uniform for the whole society different groups might have their own standards and so on um but in in time people will be able to take choices maturely and rather than
Speaker A
blindly follow leaders as they did in the past i don't know how that can come about and and if if there is no external reference i do not don't just do not see how this can possibly come about you
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talk about following leaders but instead of it seems that we we not we don't just follow we didn't just follow leaders we followed also something called conscience maybe now that's given way to what primitive rage often people were
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following their consciences when they were gassing jews in the concentration camps were they people weren't just gas and jews people were also fighting hitler they were led to do that by conscience but i'm saying lots of people who
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followed the leader the people who followed blindly the leader who didn't take on board their own responsibility which is what individualism is about um could do the most tremendously horrible things and their consciences weren't true i wouldn't say i could say that at the
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moment people i think would be quite willing to do horrible things i don't think um the um moralist man is is any less disinclined to follow the follow his peers often more so more because there is no standards to
Speaker A
again to evaluate the influence of those around you if you got caught up in this do you see an element of narcissism extreme i think it's been called the culture of narcissism that the only reference is to the self the only good
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is um individual survival or personal well-being clever yeah um i i was um taken with in fact what appeared to be almost the opposite of what i'd said which was that um i think that the virtue is that
Speaker A
everybody has to lose and i think you rightly turned it on your head when it on its head when you said maybe we all have to be winners now i was reminded of um melanie phillips's almost have prizes
Speaker A
which is kind of we all you know losing as a virtue but in the other hand um you know we all have to be winners regardless of what we've done but i i want to know why you think that's
Speaker A
happened i mean i'm slightly nervous about your attack on individualism i mean to me what's being lost is individually i'm i i like individualism whether you seem to be blind i think there's a difference in individualism and selfishness
Speaker A
very much a difference um i would to pick up on things which i said earlier i do think there's so many historical strands in this it's very difficult to disentangle them um and certainly one big injection i think came from
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what roughly could be called the sort of mental health movement the therapeutic yes that revolution so i suppose i mean my concern was number of people dressed by external standards and children i agree with you can i just ask to spontaneously express
Speaker A
what my point founder is i do think that's a fair point what i was more thinking about a lot of people have located this as being to do with the 1960s and the rise of individualism and they actually blame that whereas for me
Speaker A
this is the collapse of individualism and i don't think you can blame the 60s i want a bit more individualism yeah strangely enough i i mean it certainly welled up and was successful in the 60s but you you find um
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the predecessors of this for example certainly there was a big outbreak if you like in the 1890s when it was squashed it didn't have the media and the helping professions and the educational developments of the 60s to spread it
Speaker A
um but you have like people like havelock ellis which um i think he absolutely encapsulates this this uh development by talking about getting rid of all rules and institutions and in the center everything will simply be the self he's completely trapped in a
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solipsism it's a total narcissistic picture but he though somebody expects from this lots of spontaneity creativity to flow as well that's impossible some did i find this the most extraordinary tissue of pious conservatism that i've ever heard you
Speaker A
don't disapprove of individualism do you claire said sir no i don't i don't disapprove and do it i mean in fact in fact permissiveness this sort of therapeutic missingness comes to answer it comes with collectivism that's something that the powers
Speaker A
you don't disapprove of individuals no you do not either worship authority do you which was the challenge that was done by ted certainly not no right so therefore in fact you approve of the idea of social and individual
Speaker A
experimentation within certain constraints yes but i don't which of course how this can this can happen without a setting of external validation and external standards high authority letters then which seems to be contradictory let us then pursue your
Speaker A
argument and try and pursue it intelligently without this the the simple wailing of hands and saying what a terrible world we live in what do all the things you've been criticizing actually have in common what is the logical position that holds them
Speaker A
together is it not that you can do things with no consequences or with no justification but essentially is it not that's authority i have no interest in that without authority you end up purely with coercion because forget minimum social control even you
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just have to rely on intimidation you can't rely on anything else you end up with a far worser position but but please can we can we just invest it i am trying to help you sort out the mess of
Speaker A
your thoughts and being very reassuring it is very reassuring is it not if we look at how we now bring up children we bring up children you call it permissively what we say to them is even if you burn the fire it burn your
Speaker A
hand in the fire it's somehow not your fault it's the wicked fire or we sue the fire manufacturing don't we so we deprive actions of consequences what i put to you is if we have a different sort of world in which actions have
Speaker A
consequences then individualism and social experimentation actually become goods not ills in certain contexts in almost every country no i wouldn't so well hang on i've been letting her reply i'm a great believer in letting people hang themselves so what is the what is the
Speaker A
basis then of this these absolutely about the consequences of people burning their hands in in in fire we also set consequences human beings also make consequences because they make the institutions and the societies but equally oh no are we maybe where we are but are we are
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we drawing from that are we not patricia you once were in something called the institute of economic affairs you should surely be asking the question why has this happened and why has society been able to survive is it not that we have
Speaker A
been so economically successful that we can actually pay the economic bill for our follies oh yes then what's the problem no answer what's the problem if we can afford it i think but in some instances will become unaffordable ah but that that's a guess
Speaker A
that's your prophecy patricia can i just ask you a last last question if you see us behaving in a more a moral way do you think that is not in some in some sense a result of market forces
Speaker A
or do you see it entirely as changing social attitudes i think a lot of it's changing social attitudes but the market is anyway not self-sustaining and the market relies on certain values standards which it cannot itself engender which arise elsewhere and that's his i
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think problematic but if you particularly if you inject maybe market standards into those other institutions which should affect your support in them but end up getting absorbed by the market patricia morgan thanks very much indeed our next witness is uh
Speaker A
dr sean gabb who's um leading libertarian and leading member of the libertarian alliance indeed um uh sean if you're a libertarian presumably that implies a degree of license license to be selfish would you accept that a that we are more selfish
Speaker A
than we used to be and b that if we are it's a bad thing if even my selfishness was a self-interest we're no more interested now then um we're breathing more than we used to um as for as pollution atmosphere thank you david
Speaker A
i think as for um whether self-interest is good what i would say is that the pursuit of self-interest within a framework of just laws is the only way to promote the public interest there is no necessary contradiction between self-interest and
Speaker A
the public interest the two go in hand in those systems where self-interest has been where attempts are made to abolish self-interest or it has been perverted by a bad framework of laws you have not promoted the public good you've promoted
Speaker A
public catastrophe slightly self-defining uh verdict there but we're talking about verdicts gerald butler dr gab is there any point at which acquisition of wealth becomes greed acquisition of wealth which is based on the creation and trading of values is
Speaker A
never a bad thing it is not from benevolence that my local shopkeeper gives me nice goods it is not from benevolence that the bbc driver will take away you're not directing yourself to my question what i want to know is this
Speaker A
does there ever come a point at which acquisition is so great that it can be properly called greed somebody who wants to acquire so much to the exclusion of personal happiness is behaving foolishly but i would define greed as the desire for goods which have
Speaker A
not been justly earned or justly granted if somebody uses his personal connections or bribes a politician to give him privileges while he has shelters behind a limited liability company then that is greed but if somebody creates values and trades those with people that can
Speaker A
never be greedy i'm not sure you're not confusing all right and corruption as against the acquisition acquisitive let's look at let's take the example of elton john his music is not to my taste and some people might say
Speaker A
that it's a terrible waste it's greed to spend a million pounds here on flowers but elton john has created something it may be extravagant but it gives him pleasure he has he has created things that other people are willing to pay to
Speaker A
have they've given him a lot of money and you might call him greedy but he isn't greedy he has created something of value he has sold it to people he has enriched their lives and they have given him a lot of money and the piling up of
Speaker A
money in that sense can never be greedy but are there no social responsibilities for those who seek to acquire massive wealth or can they merely tread over everybody within the law of course in order to get greater and greater wealth
Speaker A
if somebody behaves in a manner which is which in any moral system would be considered tasteless or uncaring of others feelings and that is wrong but we need to be very careful about what we call greed to call most
Speaker A
kinds to call most pursuits of self-interest greed as is often the case nowadays is no more appropriate than regarding the actions of a soldier on the battlefield as murder we must make a very careful distinction ted harrison there are uh one gathers a lot of people
Speaker A
who when they feel particularly down will go out and spend spend spend they'll uh it's retail therapy it's a very nice therapy it can be well what i was going to say is it's actually rather empty therapy it's the therapy of people
Speaker A
who have nothing else it's the therapy of people who have no other deeper values to fall back on rather than just glib materialism it depends what you're buying i went out and bought some nice cds on saturday purely material objects
Speaker A
but as far as i'm concerned they are the key to heaven when i play them and many people who buy things are not buying near material objects they are buying things which they regard as beautiful or as happiness giving in themselves key to
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heaven now tell me which part of scriptures do one does one find or the key to heaven is buying things the key to heaven for me is listening to mozart so hilton john we've already i'm not elephant but what about the buying of huge
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amounts of of material goods rather than the carefully selected occasional key to heaven as you've done if people waste their money or rather if people buy things which they do not really want they're behaving foolishly i would never
Speaker A
dispute that selfishly because of the way in which society but but can we move this on uh we start with greed here we're actually interested in winners in the sort of winning without without uh thought for other people particularly
Speaker A
and and doesn't is there not an element in in a in a in the materialistic society that ted obviously is so deeply skeptical about of uh of you know the strongest comes out on top and and sits on the others
Speaker A
it depends what kind of framework of laws you have if you have a morality here we're not talking about necessarily a structure of laws morality involves pursuing your self-interest with a reasonable and just regard to the interests of others
Speaker A
and that framework but what we're suggesting is that self-interest demands kicking other people in the face in certain circumstances or seems to in certain situations in certain circumstances self-interest requires you to pull somebody away from a spa when the ship
Speaker A
has gone down but that is not by any means a normal situation most people have to do repeat business with each other and so winning in business which is the subtext here winning in business does not involve kicking everybody else aside it means
Speaker A
peacefully cooperating if you getting the customer hooked it means a salesman of it means pleasing for instance i want repeat business by getting people hooked on it sorry there's retail therapy and people who go out and they want 10
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million people sorry 10 million people in the past 15 years have given up smoking but let's not talk about smoking it's a massive issue the point is that in business you provide people with goods and services that they want and i think it's
Speaker A
demeaning to individuals to say they're hooks on advertising or they're somehow deceived i bought those cds on saturday because i wanted them and because they give me pleasure not because i have somehow been manipulated into buying them uh clear fox um i have a lot of
Speaker A
sympathy with what you say but there's one thing that makes me very nervous which is that if um all that um what is now called selfishness is self-interest and you locate that within the market and everybody who's doing very well is doing
Speaker A
well because they've just worked hard the implication is that everyone who's doing very badly and is poor is somehow not working very hard i mean how do you like do that deal with that some people are lucky and some people
Speaker A
are unlucky and you should never condemn people out of hand so the market does not reward skill or talent it rewards what are your social positions if you're asking me for in when ted was talking to you about
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retail therapy um he adopted a certain tone of voice which i'm sure you've heard before i'm a great retail therapy shopper it's one of my favorite things that i like to do no but the point is that whenever i say
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i'm into retail therapy somebody like ted took tuts and makes out that i'm a nasty greedy materialist shallow person who doesn't believe in anything i just wondered why you think why you think it is that acquiring things has got such a bad reputation at
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the moment what's wrong with wanting things why is that happening partly because poor ordinary people can now acquire so many nice things that once they couldn't have and there is a natural reaction among intellectual elites to scorn things that the masses
Speaker A
want you see this in classical greece and you see it today you know mere possessions near cds mere aristocratic smear yes yes to what can be produced and limit to the the infill sites to put all the wrapping
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there's no limit to what i can shop what about nurses for example how do they fit into your scheme of things they want to shop for the world i think i think i'd agree with claire nurses want to shop for things now of
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course we're coming into the matter of whether the national health service is set up as best it could be and the answer is no it isn't it doesn't seem to be working does it but caring is something which is made possible by
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increasing levels of wealth the more money people have the more they give sean cab i'll stop you at that particular point and leave those words hanging in the air thanks thanks very much indeed uh last week this is dr eric
Speaker A
sigmund who's a uh fairly celebrated leading psychologist and biologist who's published lots of scientific papers on uh on subjects uh around this particular uh area uh you're an american aren't you yes uh you're right i will at least we
Speaker A
can get an international perspective on this selfish individualism is not necessarily a particularly or exclusively uh british quality but do you think it has special causes or special manifestations here i think it has special manifestations here we don't have a lot of time but um i
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think it'll suffice to say that it takes place in a very different context the kind of american individualism and i have no objection to it before anybody uh takes it takes a chunk out of me but i simply observe the consequences of a
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country which was an aristocracy uh suddenly embracing rampant pseudo-meritocracy and the void filled by um by what's happened the the the attempt at making this a more classless society um ending up with a culture of entitlement which i
Speaker A
think several of the panel members discussed before and it doesn't produce the same kind of individual endeavor that one observes in north america it's a rather different type and interdependence as such is is unfashionable now it seems to be that um
Speaker A
if you look at the united states um and no doubt this is or will be happening here uh both on the therapist's couch as well as as in society in general the idea of being dependent upon people is a
Speaker A
rather ambivalent state nowadays that independence and empowerment uh the idea that as an individual your first duty is to um seek self-fulfillment and self-actualization is something that we've embraced we've been enculturated with that and being sort of mutually
Speaker A
dependent is not cool to be openly mutually dependent on the whole isn't it isn't something which the media seems to be projecting and there are consequences to that which are now now seen in both countries claire fox um
Speaker A
we've heard from um one of our earlier witnesses that we live in a more narcissistic age and it seems that the kind of self-centeredness that you're talking about um is actually not very individualistic i mean in order to fulfill oneself these
Speaker A
days one tends to want to go to the psychologist so you just made the point you're kind of trying to get yourself affirmed all the time but it's usually from somebody else which makes you surely more dependent not more
Speaker A
individual and robust well it makes you more dependent upon someone that really isn't in your real life that's the problem you're subcontracting um emotions behaviors transactions and dynamics to someone who's a professional which is really uh not the healthiest
Speaker A
state of affairs and without wanting to entirely or unduly have a go at your profession please although i do i do although i do yes no um one of the things that that often comes out in terms of a discussion about selfishness
Speaker A
and this kind of thing is a psychologizing of people's motives for behavior which i don't think is very helpful i mean maybe you'd like to explain it but surely there are reasons good material reasons why things happen but this idea
Speaker A
of trying to understand every bit of behavior because of the inner psyche surely you're just helping fuel the idea that we're it's the inner self rather than any external factors well that's of course freudian psychology looking for why your mother um in fact uh caused you
Speaker A
to buy a chocolate bar this afternoon the behaviorist would simply look at the goal you bought something because there was a reward involved and nothing more than that so areas of psychology would interpret that behavior differently i think there is an important point that i
Speaker A
have to bring up and really i'm um i have no strong feeling about this societies have become more affluent on the whole the united states for example um when you look at them through studies usually referred to as the wellness
Speaker A
index you find that as a society does become more affluent and people do um aspire and achieve things and win social problems occur the wellness index goes down only inversely almost inversely proportional now that doesn't mean that individualism
Speaker A
per se is wrong and a problem but the way it seems to be um executed in in the western world at the moment causes those people who are not winners to do things to themselves and to others which cause death america is now the
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prozac capital of the world and they're rather handy with handguns as well there are problems with uh the ubiquitousness of seeing people win um for its own sake winning and achieving and being number one is important as a
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survival mechanism now it's become become an end in itself it's a form of entertainment um and unlike previous generations the television can bring that into one sitting room and rub it in one's face david's talking can we again using michael's favorite
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phrase try to unpack you began with the potted history of britain in which you seem to blame thatcher well someone here mentioned mrs thatcher facturian individualism um and a new sort of egalitarian society which is conventionally attributed to
Speaker A
facture presumably you don't disapprove of individualism i don't disapprove of individualism but you must understand my interpretation is very different individualism can never occur in isolation individualism has to occur in the context of being responsible for the welfare of others to some extent and
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being connected to others so i don't see this between individualism versus a collective feeling but but as a good american you would on the whole accept a kind of lock-in view of individuals in competition with each other in a strict
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system of law and rights or contract i'm actually a bad american but i i do have it precisely um yes i do think that it is unavoidable to have a degree of competition um i've been to countries where competition has been opened up in
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an american kind of way and it's had consequences but it's i always feel it's a question of where does one draw the line these arguments occur every election right okay so we on the whole think it's quite a good thing and that
Speaker A
it's obviously it's up to a point and that it's very clearly associated with highly successful economic growth which most of us quite like well there's a problem with economic growth because there seems to be an assumption and we're hearing the
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complaints in the newspapers our economy isn't growing as quickly as it should though i'm not an economist um i surrender immediately but i but i it does strike me is there anything in nature that grows continually and never
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stops um well you finally die and it stops um and that may happen to our society there are consequences to the growth the economic growth which we have to accept and either pay the price and say fine we're
Speaker A
willing to pay that price or not but what you we've sort of accepted individualism we've sort of accepted economic growth what i want to put to you is that our problems arise from what we could call a third way situation that we're in now
Speaker A
i mean after all what we want to say now is that you can have a child if you want a child whether you are married or not because of what what enables you to have a child in our country whether you've
Speaker A
got a husband whether you've got an income or not you've got it because the welfare state the welfare state pays you equally we decide if like michael you make a stupid investment with equitable life because you're greedy that there should be a body that
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compensates you for your own folly and greed don't we some people would yes others would say well it's a risk you took because you chose as an individual real individualism can only work when people unlike michael are prepared
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honestly to accept the consequences of their actions so if you have a bastard you've got to pay for it well there is there is a problem with rights and responsibilities um irrespective of how mr burke invested his money um he he not referring to
Speaker A
edmonds ted harrison should we be worried about the losers we should be because um there are several consequences that um in fact are going to affect us directly one of them is crime on the streets of london um
Speaker A
secondly we do have a problem with male suicide this country has had has had extraordinary rates of male suicide and year in and year outs um in recent times both the government as well as the organizations that deal with it do
Speaker A
attribute much of this to males feeling like losers uh so there are consequences that can be quantified and we might be willing to accept that high suicide rights might be fine if you're a winner um if you're not or you're a family
Speaker A
member of someone who's committed suicide you might think rather differently joe button the problem that i see is this you've agreed and i and i think you're right the pursuit of victory the pursuit of wealth is something that's essential
Speaker A
in a democratic society that seeks to grow and seeks uh material good indeed you've done it in the states it's happening here you also go on to say but it reaches a point where it does harm yes so what i don't know and no one has
Speaker A
yet told me is how you manage to decide and determine when that point is reached and when it is reached what do you do think of it practically if you would because no one's really addressing okay one of the things that um that's
Speaker A
happened it isn't the question of how affluent we've become there are two other factors one of them is the gap between those who've made it and those who haven't and the width of that gap will determine the level of
Speaker A
dissatisfaction but more importantly we now do have global electronic media which creates a state of i think the archbishop of canterbury referred to as uh stimulated impermanence um and living vicariously through the pursuits and and are now receiving electronic images
Speaker A
which appear to be real for all intents and purposes which heightened the emotions that would have would not have been stimulated in that way even 10 or 15 years ago electronic media has changed everything and it's heightened doesn't that just make them more
Speaker A
controllable i think he's joking i think you must be joking that isn't that why on the whole there are not serious revolutions that you get these enormous gaps between rich and poor and the poor sit on their bottoms watching big
Speaker A
brother in other words the psychological that's a good line to finish on eric siegmund thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks very much indeed um uh david there is a point here eric sigmund was talking about the wellness index we sent to what
Speaker A
delightful prospects but whether this is how people feel about it or their actual physical states um this this glorious society of of winners materially enriched perhaps it doesn't seem to be making us any happier michael once upon a time we used to say that
Speaker A
what was essential about being human was divine discontent the reason why we progress why we change why we get richer why unlike ted we actually do more interesting things with our minds now in the late 20th beginning of the 21st
Speaker A
century than we've ever done is because of discontent if you want happiness we'd have never advanced from being an amoeba i was interested in your point which actually came out a couple of times your point was that we aren't winners we
Speaker A
aren't focusing on on winning we all go around uh saying we'd like to be losers or or you know losing is somehow elevated into a into a desirable state is it possible that two things actually coexist well actually i've changed my
Speaker A
position which is uh unknown absolutely because i actually would be framed with me don't you yes no no no no i actually think that what has happened actually i think i've got it slightly wrong which is is that
Speaker A
everybody is now going to be a winner in this way that we won't we aren't prepared to make a judgment and say this person is better than that person and you get a ver and what that means which
Speaker A
does agree with david is that people are given reward for what nothing being themselves and there's nothing more patronizing or vacuous or empty than to hand somebody a prize and say darling you've won when they've done that at
Speaker A
least at least charlotte one survivor as it were probably the irony yeah the irony therefore is what what's the very important question is happening what happens to the losers if we're teaching our children for example that everybody should fail i mean everybody
Speaker A
should pass and no one should fail and they're all getting prizes and they're all getting rewarded then what happens is when you actually do fail in something you can't cope you sue instead yes but actually you have a diminished
Speaker A
idea that you can't cope which is why people are more likely to be depressed about it instead of thinking i need to improve and do something about it external measures haven't got to accept that you know those people who do lose
Speaker A
have still got to be reassured that they're they're loved now they that the child who comes third in the sack race at the school now mummy comes up afterwards and say gives him or her a big hug and the child knows that he's
Speaker A
still loved even though he's he's he hasn't won the race um and widen that out that as people generally whether we lose or win we've got to have some other way of knowing that we still have value to somebody or something
Speaker A
which is perhaps why if one then broadens it out to look at why there are still despite all the pressures in modern society so millions of people who have a religious faith who believe that there has to be some ultimate body some
Speaker A
ultimate person some ultimate something that will validate they themselves see them as individuals and see them as individuals who can be loved even if they're losers this is just a divine lollipop no but if i when i taught people with um mental
Speaker A
handicap which i know is not the correct terminology um we used to always give everybody a a gold medal when they went into swimming and the reason we did that was because we didn't want them to be upset we didn't want them to feel like
Speaker A
they were losers you're advocating that as a social policy for adults which just about sums up how you think that human adults should be treated of course we've got to have losers and we've got to have winners otherwise the
Speaker A
law couldn't make a profit never mind about the law i'm not at the moment i'm not interested in that in the slightest but let me go on the curious paradox we have at the moment at the time of a labor government
Speaker A
is that the gap between the rich and the poor is ever greater now it seems to me that this will eventually become if it isn't already and i suspect it is already so socially corrosive now i may turn to the law that the
Speaker A
criminal courts will become even fuller than they are now but then the question arises and i do not know the answer to it perhaps you have one what do you do about it we know taxation doesn't work tax tax the high
Speaker A
paid they go elsewhere or they find ways uh of avoiding tax so one can rule that anyway there's very little tax to be gained from taxing very rich so what does one do what are we going to go on forever and ever
Speaker A
with the poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer or perhaps to put it another way the gap between rich and poor expanding is that something where is your debit starting nonsense the poor are not getting poorer the rich are getting
Speaker A
richer and there may be a very slight widening of a gap has compensated for yourself as compared with the 20s 30s 40s and 50s which were a wholly a typical period and frankly one that i have i am frankly one that i am absolutely
Speaker A
delighted to have got rid of the thing is i'm not one thing that i'm concerned about is the point of freedom one thing i'm concerned about is that the poor whether they're poor or richer or whatever have been patronized and
Speaker A
they're actually being talked out in a sneery voice that when they have the nerve to want to aspire to have more to want to win the million to want to actually get richer they're suddenly given a moral lecture about we live in a
Speaker A
greedy society that's why i find this tasteful patricia we should patricia morgan ted harrison peter morgan before just before she was strangled by david um asked the rhetorical question where is conscience in all this and you blinked rapidly uh obviously
Speaker A
this resonated with you it didn't that david needs to say but uh conscience has got to be something which is faced by those who are getting richer um obviously and in absolute terms the the poor are not getting poorer the
Speaker A
thing now in absolute terms i accept that but it is the gap and it's the envy gap i remember talking to a a a chap who had a he was a an anglican priest had a parish in the east end of london and he
Speaker A
said it's not so much poverty these days it's it's a poverty of self-esteem it's a poverty of self-worth now i can hear the groans um going around at that particular point but i think you can't dismiss that if all the values
Speaker A
that people are being given all the benefits of the wealth are just oh well come and shop here or shop there or buy this or buy that those are such shallow values and there are so many better values to pursue you want to replace
Speaker A
them with the rich man in his castle the poor man at his gate all doffing their hats to each other in a nice integrated society and the poor people can go and look at it i'm gonna leave it there
Speaker A
that's it for this week from our panel david starkey claire fox ted harrison and gerald butler and from me until the same time next week look after yourself own yourself of course don't bother with the rest of us goodbye
Speaker A
the moral maze was presented by michael burke and produced by david combs you
Topics:Moral Mazewinningself-interestgreedmoral relativismindividualisminequalitySurvivorcorporate ethicsBBC











