Speaker A
From Brick in downtown Brooklyn, I'm Makenzie Pagan, and this is Glitter and Doom, a show about artists and cultural creators who are responding to the most pressing issues of our times. So, thank you.
Caveh Zahedi discusses radical honesty, his meta TV show, and the blurred lines between art and personal truth in documentary filmmaking.
Key Takeaways
- Radical honesty in art can reveal uncomfortable personal truths but also raises ethical questions.
- Zahedi's meta approach blurs the lines between character and creator, challenging viewers' perceptions.
- Honesty about personal flaws, including problematic behavior, can reduce shame but requires careful navigation.
- Art can serve as a political and social commentary by exposing human complexity and contradictions.
- The creative process involves selective storytelling that balances truth with dramatic emphasis.
What the video covers
- The video features Caveh Zahedi, a documentary filmmaker known for his radically honest and self-reflective style.
- Zahedi's show 'The Show About the Show' is a meta-series about making the previous episode, exploring complex personal and creative dynamics.
- The discussion touches on Zahedi's controversial behavior, including issues of consent and his self-described sex addiction.
- Themes include the tension between artistic honesty and ethical boundaries, and how Zahedi portrays himself on screen versus his real-life persona.
- The show is framed as political art responding to pressing contemporary issues through personal narrative and radical transparency.
- Zahedi reflects on activism, human flaws, and the purpose of art as a way to reveal deeper truths and cleanse perception.
- The video explores the challenges of balancing drama, honesty, and creative license in documentary storytelling.
- Zahedi emphasizes the importance of honesty in reducing shame and fostering genuine connection despite personal shortcomings.
- The conversation also critiques social perceptions of beauty, power dynamics, and the impact of social media on authenticity.
- Overall, the video offers a nuanced look at Zahedi's unique approach to filmmaking and the ethical questions it raises.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction to Glitter and Doom and Caveh Zahedi
- 01:55Zahedi's TV Show Concept and Meta Narrative
- 03:42Controversies and Ethical Questions in Zahedi's Work
- 05:35Themes of Radical Honesty and Artistic Purpose
- 07:48Zahedi on Activism and Personal Flaws
- 10:38Creative Process and Storytelling Choices
- 14:16Discussions on Consent and Sex Addiction
- 19:56Broader Reflections on Power, Beauty, and Social Media
- 21:40Closing Thoughts on Honesty and Art
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
because everyone is there's no money in film and all the money's in TV that's a stupid idea I don't know why you want to do that wait I make a TV show it's gonna be great each episode of the show about the
Speaker A
Okay, I really want to make a TV show.
Speaker A
making movies for about 30 years now and before we booked him on the show the only things I knew about him were through season one of the show about the show which I was really into and this New York Times Magazine profile that
Speaker A
Because everyone is. There's no money in film, and all the money's in TV.
Speaker A
complicated guy and the more I watched of his work the more I too found it questionable and maddening like every woman who appears in the show about the show cobby's like I wonder if she's interested in having sex with me even
Speaker A
That's a stupid idea. I don't know why you want to do that.
Speaker A
when their wants and his wants don't align but how much of that is real and how much of that is a filmmakers creative license is Kavi the character the same person as copy the human is he being radically honest about his own
Speaker A
Wait, I make a TV show. It's gonna be great.
Speaker A
welcome so for people who have not seen the show about the show what is the show about the show yes it's a show about making a show and every episode is about the making of the previous episode and it airs on brick TV
Speaker A
Each episode of the show about the show is about the making of the previous episode. It is very meta and a total mindfuck and really unlike anything else that is out there today.
Speaker A
making of the previous episode yes he's into is really like one long extended episode yeah broken into parts and season three is supposed to be about the making of season two I don't know if this was expressed to you when we booked
Speaker A
Cobby's Aheadi is the show's creator and star. He's a documentary filmmaker who's been making movies for about 30 years now, and before we booked him on the show, the only things I knew about him were through season one of the show about the show, which I was really into, and this New York Times Magazine profile that came out in October coinciding with the launch of season two.
Speaker A
would say that they are making political art we had you on the show because we're both at brick and because I think that your show is among the most original and fascinating things that's being made right now but I wasn't sure that you
Speaker A
The title of the piece is "A Filmmaker Bared His Soul. It Ruined His Life." The subhead continues, "Cobby's Aheadi's abject, self-defeating, ethically questionable, maddeningly original approach to documentary."
Speaker A
started doing activism in college I was struck by how mean the activists were you know they were arrogant and they were snotty and they were you know they were like Marxist Leninist and it was just like you guys don't even understand
Speaker A
Complicated guy, and the more I watched of his work, the more I too found it questionable and maddening. Like every woman who appears in the show about the show, Cobby's like, "I wonder if she's interested in having sex with me," even when it's pretty clear that these women are only interested in him professionally or creatively or just as his friends.
Speaker A
you know beauty is in front of you like everything is beautiful but it doesn't we don't see it as beautiful I mean I don't see it as beautiful usually I just sort of see it as whatever ugly or a
Speaker A
It's a recurring theme in his work that he thinks about women in terms of what they can give him, and he'll push when their wants and his wants don't align. But how much of that is real, and how much of that is a filmmaker's creative license? Is Cobby the character the same person as Cobby the human? Is he being radically honest about his own desires and shortcomings, or excusing radically bad behavior?
Speaker A
purpose of art really should be to you know to cleanse the the window and so I just thought I'll make a film about the most simple recent universal banal thing really that I can think of which was I was like oh I just had a crush on
Speaker A
These were just some of the thoughts swirling through my head when I sat down with him recently to talk about groping, the Zodiac, and human suffering.
Speaker A
reenacted it and and it was really good I could turn out really well it's a little stiff yeah and so then I just kept going and it's just kind of morphed gradually from film to film into this style and do you find that by
Speaker A
Cobby's Aheadi, thank you for joining me today.
Speaker A
that maybe even the meaning of things the camera notices things that you don't notice you know and you're able to have this perspective outside yourself that's really kind of amazing is kava the character who you play in your shows in
Speaker A
You know, you're welcome.
Speaker A
little more like mellow and tone down like now then I am when I'm reenacting something right I feel like most people when we're telling a story about ourselves unconsciously or consciously we edit the story to make ourselves look
Speaker A
So, for people who have not seen the show about the show, what is the show about the show?
Speaker A
you know the art of it requires like radical honesty and also the drama of it requires you know that you emphasize certain things and others so you're constantly sort of cherry-picking what parts of the thing you're gonna reenact and what aspects of
Speaker A
Yes, it's a show about making a show, and every episode is about the making of the previous episode, and it airs on Brick TV.
Speaker A
that well I'm just thinking about like I'm a sex addict right you are very forthright about the fact that you groped women without their consent yeah well I mean I think what I'm trying to do is sort of like give a more accurate
Speaker A
Yeah, where we are, right?
Speaker A
it's true but it was actually it was a prostitute that I was about to like that we're having a transaction well but you also talked about going into massage parlors yeah that's what it was but that the receptionist's you grabbed their breasts
Speaker A
Yeah, and so a lot of it's about Brick. There's a lot of those meta narratives within the show.
Speaker A
know the point is they would not consent to it right and the consent was usually financial you know I wasn't paying for the thing I was that they usually get paid to for right whether or not there were sex workers consent is right right
Speaker A
Yeah, including in this season, where you depart a little bit from the structure of each episode is about the making of the previous episode.
Speaker A
trying to like well constantly being selfish in different ways and overriding other people's you know boundaries or desires like that's just something we all do and so I think it's very important to be honest about it because one it eliminates a certain kind of
Speaker A
Yes, it's really like one long extended episode, broken into parts, and season three is supposed to be about the making of season two.
Speaker A
addiction is the shame of it so by having this kind of like shame on you moralism in the equation that doesn't help solve the problem you know it's like I just perpetuates it so it's really I mean politically I think it's
Speaker A
I don't know if this was expressed to you when we booked you on the show, but the show is actually about artists who are responding to the most pressing issues of our times.
Speaker A
say that's like the the essential philosophy of the films but also like I do think that's what will change the world more than anything we all want to be liked or loved and most of us lie to be loved you know we hide things and
Speaker A
I would say all of the people we've had on the show, and we've only done a handful, would say that they are making political art.
Speaker A
and the result is like it's never quite works it's never satisfying and I think everyone is lovable and I think if people were honest people would love them more not less I mean this idea of honesty or radical transparency seems to
Speaker A
We had you on the show because we're both at Brick and because I think that your show is among the most original and fascinating things that's being made right now, but I wasn't sure that you would say—
Speaker A
sex addict you you show many of your relationships with women significant others as you are dealing with a sex addiction and you come to the women who are your primary partners and you say you know I am having thoughts about
Speaker A
I would totally say that. You would say that you're making art that is political.
Speaker A
hurt someone do you feel that by being honest with them it in some way mitigates the hurt I mean there seems to be this ethical notion or notion of ethics that I don't doesn't make sense to me which has to do with hurt and it
Speaker A
I think the personal is political. I think that every interaction is a microcosm for the whole of humanity's interactions.
Speaker A
hurt is my responsibility it has to do with my own judgment about something so like if I say so if I've going out with somebody and I say to them oh I'm attracted to her like that's true and
Speaker A
When I started doing activism in college, I was struck by how mean the activists were. You know, they were arrogant and they were snotty, and they were, you know, like Marxist-Leninist, and it was just like, you guys don't even understand the basic fundamental idea of communism, which is that we're all one.
Speaker A
is not true right and if you get hurt because of that it's only because you're haven't grown sufficiently to the place where you're fine with who you are and with who I am and because I've had to lie about it it's created a wall between
Speaker A
So there was an idea of like, let's just take responsibility for the space that we are actually creating and our own footprint emotionally and psychically, that like, you know, beauty is in front of you, like everything is beautiful, but it doesn't—we don't see it as beautiful.
Speaker A
sweeping statement I mean I think intentionality matters for sure right for example if you have a girlfriend and she says hey it's really gonna hurt me if you have sex with someone else and then you do go and have sex with someone
Speaker A
I mean, I don't see it as beautiful usually. I just sort of see it as whatever, ugly or dull.
Speaker A
with her was more important to me than my need for you not to be hurt right and then you need to know that about me that I'm somebody for whom this is more important than that and then either
Speaker A
And, you know, when you're on drugs, everything is beautiful.
Speaker A
me and can we like find a way to like make that not happen again mm-hmm and that probably will require like a very deep honest conversation rather than a judgmental or victim e1 about right you hurt me and I'm the
Speaker A
And so it was like clear that it's not that the things are beautiful, it's just that your perception can't see the beauty in things, and it just seemed like the purpose of art really should be to, you know, to cleanse the window.
Speaker A
part of the reason for that is because I actually don't think that we can know what's right and wrong all we can know is like what's true for us like what I like about astrology is that like like
Speaker A
And so I just thought, I'll make a film about the most simple, recent, universal, banal thing really that I can think of, which was, I was like, oh, I just had a crush on somebody, and she didn't—she didn't reciprocate my feelings.
Speaker A
it's good for the kids for their parents to talk to each other but my wife doesn't agree she's like I'm not talking to you and I'm like but how could you do that that's so uncaring to the children to me
Speaker A
I'll just make a film about that just because it was recent, it was, you know, I was obsessed by it, but it was, you know, ordinary, and I had everybody play themselves. I reenacted it, and it was really good. It could turn out really well.
Speaker A
at astrologically then it's like well she's a Virgo and her moon is in you know Capricorn and that's a totally different way of looking at the world and for me to bring my tourist sensibility to that situation it's kind
Speaker A
It's a little stiff.
Speaker A
it all you like the concept the concept that everyone is different right and that we shouldn't hold people to the same standards that we hold ourselves to because they're different which is kind of the opposite of what most ethics are
Speaker A
Yeah, and so then I just kept going, and it's just kind of morphed gradually from film to film into this style.
Speaker A
that I've agreed to conform to you right so I go to a movie theater and somebody's like checking their phone right to me this is outrageous ly unethical you know like they're just a Scorpio right exactly I don't either but it's like they have a
Speaker A
And do you find that by reenacting the mundane or things from your own life that you are able to see the beauty in it in a way that you aren't when you are living your normal life?
Speaker A
critical of a sheik when you were told not to be and one of the criticisms was that you put people in danger by making this film people who lived within the sheiks Kingdom and could face repercussions the title of this review
Speaker A
Yeah, the beauty and the humor and that maybe even the meaning of things. The camera notices things that you don't notice, you know, and you're able to have this perspective outside yourself that's really kind of amazing.
Speaker A
moral position within this world I mean we're all participating in a deeply immoral system Brecht said famously every day I go to the marketplace of Lies and I hope to take my place among the sellers and not the buyers you know
Speaker A
Is Cobby the character who you play in your shows, in your films, is that the same Cobby as the Cobby I'm talking to right now in real life?
Speaker A
activist you know how do you approach that it's fair to say like it's immoral to talk about government repression and repressive country is really naive I think because it assumes that not talking about it is somehow is safe for
Speaker A
Mostly. The New York Times person said something like more muted, more guarded, and bleaker. Think that rings true?
Speaker A
lies are already in danger mm-hmm and you're just trying to find like a really playful way an exploratory way to sort of speak about these things in a way that can sort of help move the conversation forward and help shed light
Speaker A
Yeah, it does. I mean, I think I'm just a little more mellow and toned down now than I am when I'm reenacting something.
Speaker A
then that you would get to return to the United States and the safety of the United States yeah but it's only because I can leave the country that I'm able to speak about it like that was what gave
Speaker A
Right. I feel like most people, when we're telling a story about ourselves, unconsciously or consciously, we edit the story to make ourselves look better.
Speaker A
having seen it right but you you did I did right so like we have a different ethics around that sure so to me it's just like to me that seems wrong right because I wouldn't do that but you know
Speaker A
Mm-hmm.
Speaker A
you want to say it but like me just being honest like my first thought is like what you didn't even watch it and you're like basically criticizing this film that you don't even know what it is but the question was a critical question
Speaker A
But you don't seem to do that.
Speaker A
judgment about your question in the face of that and having seen the film because you would have a very different take on it if you had seen the film and I'm trying not to judge you because that's my first impulse I'll just be clear I
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
he's the same pulse that we have whenever we judge anybody were like but I wouldn't do that how can you but then it's like no but wait a minute there's a whole other context so all of my films really are
Speaker A
Is that a conscious choice that you make to not present yourself in the best light?
Speaker A
entirely fair of you to say hey you're bringing up a criticism of a film that I made and you didn't see it so I would prefer for you not to talk about a critic who had seen it without your
Speaker A
Yeah, I mean, I think it's boring and annoying when people do that, and I think, you know, the art of it requires like radical honesty, and also the drama of it requires, you know, that you emphasize certain things and others.
Speaker A
person who's having the feelings are wholly responsible for their own feelings and I think look I think that I think that's good work for us all to do right because we are moving through a world where we're gonna be assaulted by
Speaker A
So you're constantly sort of cherry-picking what parts of the thing you're gonna reenact and what aspects of your personality or your behavior are gonna be interesting.
Speaker A
feel badly that we are without responsibility yes I mean do you feel bad about this film I do want to say that you know you're right I didn't watch it and it was not my intention to come after you for it I simply wanted to
Speaker A
That's usually the things that are ethically, you know, ambiguous or dubious.
Speaker A
or the phenomenon of guilt tripping interest what you're saying I mean your argument is so reasonable and so obviously true but I'm gonna argue against it anyway okay I'm ready well it's a very new age thing that I'm
Speaker A
Right. I mean, you present instances where you behave very badly.
Speaker A
of the people who are having it you know it's just absurd correct the only way it makes sense if it does make sense in any way whatsoever is an embed a physical model in which before this lifetime people chose to have certain experiences
Speaker A
You know, one could say that—well, I'm just thinking about like, I'm a sex addict.
Speaker A
to a certain kind of spiritual place let's call it waking up from what I would call the dream of existence right but that's the only way it makes sense is if there is a previous incarnation and there's a future incarnation and
Speaker A
Right.
Speaker A
in the world that we live in is that it hues very closely to the idea that people who are rich and privileged are being rewarded by God in some way right and so that if we see people who are
Speaker A
You are very forthright about the fact that you groped women without their consent.
Speaker A
rich you know how do those two things well I don't think it has I don't think rich so that anything to do with it or poor they do it I mean the world seems either absolutely unjust and pretty much
Speaker A
Yeah, well, I mean, I think what I'm trying to do is sort of like give a more accurate map of the human. Like, there's a map of the human that is, I think, not realistic and not true.
Speaker A
absurd like either the universe is meaningful or it's not and I think it is and if it is that everything has a reason and injustice becomes something else I mean there is I think the need in our growth
Speaker A
And like, I mean, for example, you just said this thing like there's a scene where I grope a woman.
Speaker A
on the show right right and there soon on suffering that came from that you know for me for her for the children for people in our circle and I'm sure she I'm I think she feels victimized and I
Speaker A
Would say it's true, but it was actually—it was a prostitute that I was about to, like, that we're having a transaction.
Speaker A
it's like she's been like this incredible teacher to me now granted there was no physical violence involved there was no starvation there was no torture wasn't like a severe example of of cruelty or of true suffering you know
Speaker A
Well, but you also talked about going into massage parlors.
Speaker A
learning experience I know it's a it's totally hard and it seems heartless it seems heartless to say well they just chose that experience in a past life for a learning experience but I don't know how else to think about it except
Speaker A
Yeah, that's what it was.
Speaker A
the show she asks you and this is a line that she's disputed she says that she's never that she didn't actually say this and you contend that she said something along the lines of it where she asks you
Speaker A
But that the receptionist's you grabbed their breasts and then ran out the door.
Speaker A
family and I was like torn and I'm like the show is really important to me it's not just the show it's like my entire identity it's my my art practice and to say you have to like stop believing in radical honesty stop
Speaker A
Yeah, you're right, I did do that, but the receptionists were also prostitutes. I mean, it wasn't like a secretarial job, but they may not have been sex work.
Speaker A
consider weighing these two things and I say you're right you're right because my sister somehow like gets past all the other voices in my head and I say to her okay fine I will not put any of this
Speaker A
I mean, you know, the point is they would not consent to it.
Speaker A
said I wouldn't pick the family I actually did pick the family it's because it was too late and she no longer was interested but that monologue where you talk about before you talk to use writer where you decide that you
Speaker A
Right, and the consent was usually financial.
Speaker A
practice the same type of radical honesty continue making art about other things but that you just didn't include your family I mean it would feel like it would feel like selling out to be like okay I'm just gonna do what the entire
Speaker A
You know, I wasn't paying for the thing I was—that they usually get paid for, right? Whether or not they were sex workers, consent is right.
Speaker A
it's just at some level just ego is just like identity and ego in the end I didn't have to make that decision because she made it for me by leaving the relationship I feel like the idea of boundaries is not something that comes
Speaker A
Right, right.
Speaker A
have no boundaries or something which i think is kind of true I think I'm against boundaries I mean I think I'm all for a union between all people and some kind of spiritual oneness that that destroys boundaries I mean one of
Speaker A
No, I mean, no, I'm not proud of that, but it's like it's within the realm of the human.
Speaker A
time when people say mean things about him the guy is a psychopath who needs to be removed from office and put in a straightjacket right like that hurts his feelings to hear that but it's true right so we're not going to be like I
Speaker A
I mean, we're all constantly sort of like trying to get something for free, you know, and we're all constantly trying to, like, well, constantly being selfish in different ways and overriding.
Speaker A
like the oppressors feelings don't matter well it's the idea of punching up versus punching down yes I mean it makes sense mm-hmm for sure but the probably instances when punching down is maybe appropriate and funny and punching up maybe not like I
Speaker A
don't know that you can have a blanket thing about that but it certainly makes sense but again even the notion of up and down like what is up and what is down like we think we know what up and down is but I
Speaker A
mean I guess talking about power structures as you were saying but even power structures like this is one of the things that annoy me about the current reductive jargon around power structures is there's so many forms of power and
Speaker A
they're all coexistent and to say this person has more power because of this one aspect is really simplifying the field quite a bit when people say white people have more power than black people I don't think they're talking about like
Speaker A
every single white person has more power than every single black person right but we're talking about systems historical systems of inequality yeah I mean that's true white people historically have had more power than black people for sure it gets
Speaker A
tricky when it becomes this kind of blanket thing where it's all really complex and I just I'm just against you know reductions at the same time you know any telling of any story as a reduction you know I mean the way
Speaker A
you told the story about the groping left out key elements that inflected you know they don't undo it but they certainly change how one would read that story and I do the same thing in my show you know I'll leave out things that will
Speaker A
change how you read it and it's inevitable and storytelling and I think that what storytelling can do and should do is to extend our humanity not to reduce it you know I read this book recently I didn't like it and then I
Speaker A
read it again like a year later I loved it you know the book hasn't changed I've changed and what I needed it wasn't giving me and what I'm needing now it is giving me what's called a course of love
Speaker A
it's amazing it's a channeled book so it's the channeler his name is Mary Perrin I'm Marie Perrin but it claims to be channeled from a spiritual entity what do you think didn't resonate with you a year ago that resonates with you now I
Speaker A
don't know I just had certain experiences that have opened me up to being ready to receive what it has to say I think many people find themselves to be frustrated with the amount of mediation that now happens between the
Speaker A
life that we're living and the life that we present on Instagram and on social media it's exhausting to be somewhere beautiful and be thinking about how you're going to capture the perfect Instagram photo but you've been doing that since way before social media do
Speaker A
you find it to be exhausting I came to Instagram very late I only started doing it this summer and you know it's fun it's kind of great actually but it's also like a chore you know while Stevens has a long one of his
Speaker A
poetry the poems where he says how many lesser poems he denied himself in his observing progress I imagined him like walking around thinking of poems and he's like not good enough not good enough not good enough I'm not gonna use
Speaker A
that one what is good enough and the more of them you do the higher standards get also I've had this experience with video diaries too like when you first do them like hey shot of a cup that's cool but then after a while
Speaker A
it's like that's not that's not enough you can't just do a shot of a cup again and this is true with relationships too I mean that's why I think my relationships often die out is because people aren't finding the newness and
Speaker A
the other in the situation they're de falling into habits and so it gets boring but there is a story of the now that's always happening it's always new but we're not seeing it it's it's a lot of work to be fully in the present and
Speaker A
and to fully in the new I mean that's the work of art it sounds like you're using the language of addiction in a way where you you're chasing the newness you're chasing a bigger fix that you know you take a photo of the cup and at
Speaker A
one point that satisfies okay that's boring and you need to find something more interesting with more emotional depth but in order to keep yourself stimulated and interested I mean you just did a season about a catastrophic catastrophic moment in in your marriage
Speaker A
in your relationship do you worry about like what comes next or what you will need to do next in order to satisfy that novelty right to keep upping up in the end something me auntie exactly I don't worry about it maybe I should I mean
Speaker A
right now right I don't know you very well but like we're having a moment and we're both I think using our past ideas our prejudices our preconceptions to navigate this moment but we're also having a certain openness to what's new
Speaker A
about this moment that our past assumptions registers cannot quite encompass and so there's this almost like this I don't know about you but for me there's like kind of going back and forth between a comfort zone and something that I've never experienced
Speaker A
before and so there is a tendency I think in all of us to sort of stay in our comfort zones and try to just stick with what we thought the world was before we walked into the room but the
Speaker A
world is new now and the extent to which we can open up to that difference is I think the extent to which we can be in the new and in the present and in connection and so it's hard I mean and
Speaker A
it takes two to tango but we're kind of both I think having that I don't know I can't speak for you but I think maybe we're both having that experience of like how do i navigate this these strange waters definitely awkwardly and
Speaker A
without grace is how most of us do that and and part of my films I think are about it's okay to be awkward and without grace because that's actually the true condition of being alive copy is a he thank you so much I mispronounce
Speaker A
your name that's okay there's no moral problem with that there is no moral problem but I would like to pronounce it the way that you know your parents are pronouncing you know the real pronunciation is za Heidi is that Heidi
Speaker A
but no one no one would say that and and even we don't say that because we live in America and is like where would you make Americans say it like that alright fair enough then copies a heady okay
Speaker A
thank you so much for joining me my pleasure [Music] you
Topics:Caveh Zahediradical honestydocumentary filmmakingmeta TV showThe Show About the Showethical boundariesart and activismpersonal narrativecreative licenseBRIC TV
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