A candid conversation with Bob Vankirk, CEO of Sonicwall

Okay, number live Bob, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Great to be here with you, Kevin. Yeah, I said I appreciated our pre-interview chat here. I guess I swore to secrecy, or I promise I wouldn't go there when it comes to sports teams and Jersey colors and stuff like that, so we'll leave that aside. There you go. Thank you. No, absolutely. I really, really appreciate you jumping on, and I'm looking forward to this conversation very much. Cool. So let's, you know, we're kind of talking about, you know, I wouldn't say bounced around, but you started out on the East Coast, right? And then made it down to the Carolinas and now down in wonderful Texas. But I guess take us through early days, you know, and maybe what was the spark behind getting into technology?

Yeah, so born and raised in Pennsylvania, went to undergrad down in North Carolina, a little school called Davidson College, where you know, known now for Steph Curry. And then, you know, my dad was a small-town physician, and I always thought, you know, I'm gonna be like Dad, and Dad would do house calls. And I don't think there's a more noble profession out there than doctors. And, you know, I've got siblings that are in that field. I didn't have the signs, I promise, so I quickly decided that wasn't for me. But when I came out of Davidson, really got enthralled with technology and networking. One of my earliest jobs actually was kind of a network engineer, where I was installing Ethernet cards, I was laying cable. And you know, in the early days, I'm claiming that Al Gore invented the internet—not close to it—but even the early days of networking and using the same printer and being able to share information, email, and then accessing corporate or the organization's resources remotely, I just bought in hook, line, and sinker. And then that led me to join a leadership development program at a major networking firm out of business school. I did my grad work over in Raleigh, and then that actually brought us out to Texas. I've been with a major telecom firm for a few years, and then I got into cyber, and I've been in cybersecurity now over 23 years. And you know, the tie back, Kevin, you were asking about kind of finding my way, I do believe what we do here at SonicWall truly is helping others, helping businesses, safeguarding brands, helping make the world a better place. So yeah, there's a thumb sketch.

Yeah, so you mentioned kind of been in the cybersecurity space for roughly, I guess, 23-ish years, something like that. That first kind of foray into cybersecurity or security in general, was that within Entrust? Is that the correct—

Yeah, yeah. Talk about jumping in up to your eyeballs, public key infrastructure, learning PKI, learning digital certificates. Not easy, but it definitely pushed me. One of the early trends was security. Early PKI wasn't the easiest to use, and when you have to click on a file to secure it, really not a winning scenario. So it became very clear that cybersecurity and even security back in those days was only as good as the ease of use around it, and the more transparent the security, the more broadly it would be used. So that was a key lesson in the early days. But yeah, moved from there into identity and authentication, secure cons, and now with SonicWall network security.

Yeah, so within Entrust, you know, being there for roughly 14 years, just starting out. I guess maybe that's the definition of climbing a corporate ladder or whatever, but you know, you're there. Even in the 90s, 2000s, the teens, that type of longevity was rare, right? Even at that point, people maybe two years, three years, six years on the high end. But 14 years, and you solved a pretty significant product evolution and maturing, particularly in PKI and just general security. Security in general. But I guess what was, you know, that's rare, right, to be with an organization that long? I mean, what gives?

Well, so a couple of things. I actually during that time moved from more of a services marketing type A role into the field and just loved it. Someone always said, okay, if you're gonna spend your time in marketing, you really need to carry a bag and be out on the front lines with customers, with partners, and that will make you a better marketer. So I had an opportunity to do a role in sales, and I loved it. And the really, I was like, okay, I don't want to go back. So I was fortunate enough to have that career transition. At the same time, we were moving from on-prem to the cloud, and in what we did then, many companies to this day are still doing, you took an on-prem solution, put it in the cloud, and said, okay, now we've got a hosted solution. Wow, that didn't quite work. So we went through the whole service reliability and robustness and designing something for the cloud back then. We went from 100% perpetual to 100% recurring revenue. Well, I shouldn't say 100%, but it was darn close, maybe 95.5%. And that was also during the uptick in online banking. So we moved to an authentication platform, we moved to leveraging SAML across the board, and from so many angles. Entrust was such an incredible place to be, where I learned not only from a functional standpoint more and more sales-wise, I had an opportunity to support leading financial institutions, many of our large federal government customers, and in addition to the key trends at the time. So Entrust was incredible for my career.

Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, especially at the time, that was kind of the early evolution of fundamental security, and you're going up against the likes of the RSAs and the Jamals. Yeah. And I don't know, but yeah, for you to kind of take that step down and get in front of the customer, right? That is often one of the hardest things outside of solving the security challenge, but the hardest thing is taking something that complex and boiling it down to something that a customer can understand, and then trying to translate that out to the field to give to the salespeople for them to go out there and be the evangelist. So that's, I mean, I really appreciate that story, that message, and that going out, carrying a bag, and understanding from the customer point of view what they're looking for. I imagine that was pretty invaluable and kind of shaping marketing messaging moving forward, or at least in your mind, right?

Oh, it was huge. And honestly, the biggest takeaway I loved in sales was hearing firsthand from the customers and partners because there's no filtering relative to this is what was going on or you read about market trends. When you are sitting down with the CSO of a top five financial institution, you're hearing firsthand what their pain points are, what their needs are, where they're taking their business, and that was invaluable. The other point, and it's something I've implemented over the course of the rest of my career, something I implemented as CEO here at Sonic over the past year, but it really opened my eyes to taking an outside-in approach. It starts with the customer. It s...

but even the early days of networking and and you know using the same printer and and being able to share information email and then you know accessing corporate um or the organizations you know resources remotely you know um I I just I I bought in uh uh Hook

Line and Sinker and then just you know that led me to I joined a leadership development program at a major networking firm out of business school I did my grad work over in Raleigh and then you know that actually brought us

out to Texas and I've been I was with um a major Telecom firm for for a few years and then I got into cyber and I've been in cyber security Now over 23 years um and you know the tie back Kevin you

were asking about you know kind of finding my way I I do believe you know what we do here at sonical truly is you know helping others helping businesses helping you know Safeguard Brands helping make you know um the world a better place

um so yeah there's a thumb sketch yeah so you mentioned kind of been in the cyber security space for you know roughly I guess 23-ish years something like that um that first kind of uh I guess foray into uh cyber security or Security in

general was that within trust is that is that the correct yeah yeah talk about um you know jumping in uh up to your your eyeballs public key infrastructure learning pki learning digital certificates um not easy um but it definitely pushed me and you

know one of the the early Trends was security early pki wasn't the easiest to use and you know when you have to click on a file to secure it um really you know not not a winning scenario so it became very clear that

cyber security and even security back in those days was only as good as the ease of use around it and the more transparent the the security the the more broadly it it would be used so that that was a key lesson in the early days

but yeah move from there into identity and authentication secure cons and now with Sonic or uh SonicWALL network security yeah so within trust you know being there for I guess roughly 14 years um just starting out you know and I

guess you know maybe that's the definition of climbing a corporate ladder or whatever but you know you're there I mean even even in you know the 90s 2000s you know the teens you know that type of longevity was is rare right

even at that point you know people maybe two years three years six years on the on the high end but you know 14 years and and you know you solve a pretty significant product Evolution and maturing particularly in in pki and

just you know General Security you know Security in general but I guess what was um you know you know that's rare right to be with an organization that long I mean what what um you know what what gives well so a

couple of things um I actually during that time I moved from um more of a Services marketing um you know type a role into the field and just loved when I I you know someone always said okay if you're gonna

um spend your time in marketing you really need to carry a bag and you know be out on the front lines with customers with partners and and you know that will make you a better marketeer so um I had an opportunity to do a roll in

sales and I loved it and the the really uh I was like okay I don't want to go back so I I was fortunate enough to have that career transition at the same time you know we were moving from on-prem to

the cloud and and you know in in what we did then um that many companies to this day are still doing you took an on-prem solution put in the cloud and said okay now we've got a hosted solution wow that that

didn't quite work so we went through the whole you know service reliability and and robustness and designing something you know for the cloud back then we went from a 100 Perpetual to 100 percent recurring Revenue well I shouldn't say

100 but it was darn close maybe 95.5 um and that was also during you know the the uptick in online banking so we we moved to an authentication platform we moved to you know leveraging saml across the board and and you know from so many

angles and Trust was such an incredible um you know place to be where I learned not only from a functional standpoint more and more sales wise I I had an opportunity to support leading financial institutions um many of our you know large federal

government customers um and and in addition to the key trends at the time so and Trust was incredible for my career yeah I can imagine I mean you know especially at the time we already you know that's kind of the early evolution

of of uh of kind of maybe fundamental security and you're going up to like against the likes of the rsas and the Jamal you know yeah and and I don't you know but yeah for you to kind of take

that step down and you know if you get in front of the customer right um that is that's often that is probably one of the hardest things outside of like solving the security challenge but the hardest thing is taking something that complex and

boiling it down to something that a customer can understand um and then trying to translate that you know out to the field to give to the sales people for them to go out there and you know you know you know be the

Evangelist and so that's I mean that that really appreciate kind of that that story that message and that going going out you know carrying a bag and understanding you know from the customer point of view what they're looking for I

imagine that was pretty invaluable and and kind of shaping marketing messaging you know moving forward or at least in your mind right oh it was huge and and honestly the the biggest takeaway I loved in sales I loved hearing firsthand

from the customers and partners because no that there's no filtering relative to this is what you know was going on or you read about market trends when you are sitting down with the CSO of uh you know top five financial institution

you're hearing it firsthand what their pain points are what their needs where they're taking their business and that was invaluable the the other point and it's something I've implemented over the course of the rest of my career something you know I implemented as CEO

here at Sonic all over the past year but it it really opened my eyes to taking an outside in approach it starts with the customer it starts with the partner if you understand what's keeping them up at night you

understand where their business is going you know you have such an advantage um but it's it's not just hearing it as a salesperson it's also about relating that back to PM engineering support Finance right and you know that I I

think is is invaluable the other one internally was just you know I early on I thought okay I can do this all myself um I'm only as good as if if I can close this deal and and I can you know do X Y

or Z it really became apparent to me that you're only as good as your extended team and you know um I was by far not the the sharpest pencil in the Box in the room and I had to have support behind me beside me I

had to have product management listening as well to the customer and facilitating those sessions um because you know they should be shaping the world map we over the years I've had incredible engineering teams around me but you know they there's also

the tendency then to say hey I I know what the customer wants I know what the partner wants and no one can answer that except for the customer or the partner and and that was an invaluable lesson too

I can imagine I think there's probably you know two very important lessons for any anybody in a leadership role or certainly the CEO and I think I was definitely you know guilty of this you know at times early on where you'd go

out to a sales meeting and you know you try to be open good bad or different to the feedback um you know I mean sometimes being on the front line it could be it could be it could be hairy especially if you're

you know dealing with you know top five Financial firms you know I think uh some of those uh some of the feedback is is pretty poignant and so the ability to listen and bring that back to a team is

uh is invaluable and I think second you know to your point is is you know at times realizing you're not the the smartest person in the room and need to surround yourself and I think I think for any anybody in leadership you know

that's that's kind of a fundamental because I was certainly guilty of that early on and maybe at times I still am but um realize that you know uh it's all about the team that you build around you and um you know that's where you know

you build the right team that you go just about anywhere yeah spot on couldn't have said anything better exactly right so you know moving on from uh in trust you were there you know you know quite a bit of time uh then you spent uh some

time at Silent Circle yeah it literally said right the kind of the right progression yeah exactly yep it's 23 years at uh Silent Circle um and I guess what was the impetus behind that change or you moved in that

direction yeah I I always wanted to to try my hand at a startup and you know Silent Circle was was you know along those lines um kind of a a bit modified on the risk but still a startup and you know the the focus there

was Secure comms um uh coming out with uh you know with the secure Android device um called a black phone actually the black phone was out and then black phone two but then you know the other part of

the offering was an app that you know you could download to your your iPhone or to an Android um to do secure comms and um not only um you know voice but also um texting and you know totally uh

secure in fact you could if I texted something to Kevin and I was like I you know I I just texted something that's a little too or you know not degrees of confidentiality but I I don't want that

text to last I could actually burn that text and it would erase on my end as well as yours so um you know that was actually to me the more intriguing part of of Silent Circle um and we we leaned in a little you know

harder on the the device side um than the the outside which you know to me the app really you know provided you know greater potential but you know did that for three years um I learned a lot you know worked with

a number of amazing individuals um a lot of our our you know some of the core Founders um were ex-navy seals and and you know incredible uh respect you know for for uh anyone who's served in our our you

know military but you know it was in incredible experience but uh you know that uh um after that I I uh you know chose to then make a move over to network security and sonical awesome awesome yeah so let's get into

sonic wall because uh kind of this is why I was pressing a little bit early on about the the years at interest and I think you know really really appreciative of the matriculation you know and and kind of seeing you know an

organization from you know multiple angles but you know at sonic wall you've been in multiple roles I had to write them down uh because it's impressive but you know starting out the SVP of strategic uh and then you know CMO role

and then SVP and and Crohn so you know it's again an example of seeing an organization you know not just from one you know through one lens but you know multiple angles right from you know Revenue generation to you know marketing

you know looking at strategic and so um I guess you know let's let's kind of get into what was attractive about Sonic wall early on and and take us through that Journey uh of kind of being in all

these different roles at SonicWALL yeah so let me let me start with why SonicWALL um I was familiar with sonic wall and and then you know at the time um the CEO um for whom I had worked at and trust

also you know um you know said hey could really use your your uh assistance over here um SonicWALL being a leader I'd known a number of folks that had worked for SonicWALL a leader in the network security space incredible IP you know

great history at the time what you know 25 years um in existence um and I was actually asked to come over as a CMO and you know I I told you earlier that you know I quickly found that sales was my area and I I just

loved sales and you know there were a number of back and forth at the time that I was like you know that's not where I do my best work in marketing but at the time the the need was really in

in even now I would argue in any organization sales and marketing he has to work Camden glove um and when they do tremendous Synergy not like all the other functions also have to work together but sales and marketing so I I really focused when I

started as as CMO I really focus on you know working closely with at the time that the chief Revenue officer and we put a number of programs together all around supporting our partners all around go to market and many of those

were record-setting um programs again credit to the team but you know really really you know uh you know gave me a chance to um learn not only I mean Sonic was 100 partners and and this was a first for me working for

an organization that was all partner um coming out of Dell in in 2017 the drive was you know again we're going to get back to Our Roots partners are in our DNA so um that was a great opportunity I was in

that role for a little over a year and then was asked to just step into to your point take over our key strategic accounts um our fed business and then that led to being asked to be a chief Revenue

officer so in that I mean even we'll get to kind of managing at scale but um you know there's there's obviously a ton of complexity and you know how do you how do you gain alignment right because that to your point right it's

that's often you know the one of the big um what do you call it uh that Mysteries but it's one of those it's always an area of contention it's like it's age-old right sales and marketing right it's like we gave you the leads but you

know the leads are you know that whole dynamic but you know how do you how do you you know how do you create that kind of dynamic or change you know and and get that alignment well I I think one there has to be

collaboration and mutual respect um it's not as though sales has the upper hand or marketing has the upper hand but it's it's you know Stow the ego and willing to to sit down and and you know work our way through hey we've got

some aggressive goals relative to what sales has to drive and it's really the the company it's not just sales so how are we going to work together to get there um at the time um we hadn't refreshed about 90 of our

our Top Line comes from fireworks um and we hadn't refreshed our our firewall line and in quite a ways or quite some time and you know Top Line was starting to go down units were were decreasing so we had to change things up

and you know working that together putting upgrade programs in place you know thinking through how do we engage uh our partners you know one big piece is you know just on the partner side you know and customer marketing is very very

different than partner marketing and you know we took the entire at the time I I oversaw marketing product marketing product management field took the entire organization through you know a Channel program [Music] um Channel education and and understanding our our partners

businesses how they make money how they um are are offering their services done customers you gotta understand that model and you understand how the you know they're working and how they're making a living to truly understand how we're gonna support and align you know

with them um that was fundamental and eye-opening to me and and you know when I came in as cro you know we we really leaned in in the last year were really leaning uh even more so into our partners

yeah so so now you've been CEO for just over a year maybe a couple of months something like that right um what's what's been the most interesting you know you know element or experience managing at this scale roughly with 1600

ish uh employees myths that's a very sizable organization I mean um you know what's what's been most uh interesting about that yeah I I have to tell you the first few months weren't my favorites um I I kind of hit me out of the blue

this was being CEO certainly wasn't you know something on my bucket list and uh I I had to give it a lot of thought um over the course of even you know seven years you know sonical has such an

incredible history and and we've been a leader in so many different areas technology and SMB and and security advocacy and TCO that um I I sat down with our owners and said hey this is what I'd like to do

um you know if you're willing to you know allow me to put a team in place that wants to to you know and it agrees to put sonical back in the leadership position and invest you know I'll give

you everything I got um and you know they said yeah we want want you to do that you know this isn't uh you know just make things look good for a quarter or or however long we want you to really uh restructure and and uh

build a new culture and and you know put SonicWALL back and and you know where where you know Sonic was such a great legacy so um and as I said the first couple of months were tough um I I spent literally next to no time

with with sales and marketing and spent all my time with um engineering product management product marketing and support and uh um had some tough tough uh conversations had some tough meetings um I quickly as I learned earlier in my

career I surrounded my my you know self with with team members that you know better smarter faster strong Integrity shared you know the same view around hey we need to put Sonic people you know back in in a leadership position

and I would tell you that you know over the course of the the last six months it has been an incredibly rewarding um you know um experience and you know we have a new head of engineering we have a new head of PM

um new head of support new Global um Channel Prime um we've really leaned into de and I we've leaned in to you know implementing a corporate culture underpinning everything you know we're um really focusing on driving growth and

Innovation but doing that via our partners and I I couldn't be more proud of the team um you know we've got a long way to go but um you know just the unsolicited we had a leadership meeting last week top 60

leaders got together and all around ensuring that we're aligned and focused on you know Common goals and uh objectives and I landed on Friday um came home and I had uh unsolicited um email from one of our our key

partners that said you know Bob I'm a big believer in sharing one you know good things when when uh you know you you see them especially with leadership but your team is is just amazing how they're listening they're executing

they're they're sitting down they really care about where we're heading and and structuring the road map um to align with that so you know again long-winded answer I know sorry for that but um I couldn't be more proud of the

team and where we're heading um it's it's exciting and and the energy is is uh um just amazing it's got to be rewarding and I appreciate the the the the thorough answer because you've taken you know there's not a you know

I would assume there's not a a technician or an MSP or somebody that's in around the channel That doesn't know SonicWALL so I mean it's such an established and I'd argue iconic in the channel you know brand um and that's got to be it's got to be

very challenging right taking something that's you know it's been around for a while very established even though you've been in you know involved internally but where you're taking the home you know you're looking at it from a different perspective right and you're

you're trying to you know obviously look at today and and what's going well what's not going well but then you're looking out two three four five years and where we're going and and um that's that's got to be challenging within such

an established you know you know brand uh and to get that kind of feedback in in such short order is is is probably pretty darn rewarding now I know it's not you know it's early in in you know

if I I know you're not counting you know your wins early on but right but it's it's Gotta you know feel good that you're moving in the direct Direction and and I think I think it's you know you can see that externally you you know

whether it's out at an event or you know just you know some of the press you guys have been putting out the last couple of months it seems like it's really there's there's one it's a double down commitment on on just the channel and

partner first I'm kind of getting some of that stuff but right this is kind of evolution of how you speak about the organization so there's that partner for a strategy and then you've kind of got this borderless security concept so

maybe maybe you can maybe touch on kind of you know some of the positioning and where where you're where you're thinking this is going moving forward well it you you actually said it better than I I did Kevin it it really starts

with our our partners and you know we just announced um our new secure first overhaul so secure first is our partner program we're overhauling that to provide you know um greater discounts more favorability allowing Partners to to take advantage

more flexibility of of what what role depending upon um how much they want to do with sonic wall um rewarding them enabling them um really credit to to our new um Channel Chief Michelle uh Ragusa McBain I mean she has just been a breath

of fresh air Jason Carter our cro you know the two of them started this you know well um well before you know the rest of us you know kind of lined up and and you know put more wood behind that Arrow but

it it really is looking at you know how can we grow our mssp or our service provider business it's it's more than just about listening and and you know whether it be a road map or or you know

support for example it's how we charge how we're going to structure enabling msps how are we going to layer in new services so that again their businesses can grow they can differentiate their offerings they can ensure that you know

the the security that they're providing to their customer base is is top-notch um and you know that's what's exciting about this um and you know I'm not you know taking anything for granted or or you know declaring uh Victory it's it's we're on

a journey that really doesn't have you know the Final Destination we we have to be diligent and continue to focus on what can we do better we're tripling the number of of partners that have now access to our tier two and three support

immediate access so you don't have to talk about you can immediately go to Kevin expert that's important you know when things are going to happen issues will you know um uh pop up and you know our partners and customers need to have immediate

access so those are little things though that we're folding in that that we we truly do believe will make a big difference um and again um while also adding new capabilities that are our partners can then better position and and uh their offering with

their customers and and grow their businesses some of the best feedback I've received it's not about you know when I was cro Sonic while growing you know double digits and I I'm proud of that but what was great was talking to the

partners that were saying yeah we we're having a record year or we're having a record year on top of last last uh Year's record year that is music to my ears if our partners do well and we're enabling them and we're providing

differentiated services and offerings there hey sonicwell's gonna do just fine well if there's any question about you being a partner first uh organization you know bringing Michelle on to uh to lead the charge is uh that's a damn good

move by the uh the CEO there well credit to Jason Carter our cro credit where credit's due but I mean she she has just been amazing and and those those two um have just been you know incredible but we just we just and you know we're

about to announce a new CMO about I'd say 80 to 90 of the leadership team is new to the role or new to sonic wall and that what's what's cool um it it's not about any individual it's all about your culture of you know

integrity and caring commitment um collaboration um Innovation and everyone has bought into that um it's not about okay Bob's positioning Bob for the next role um I that's been a bigger kind of one of one of the biggest priorities and and

um pieces that I've looked for in the team versus you know experience and I we have an amazing leadership team um around me yeah it sounds like you're building really truly an ecosystem you know internally and externally and and that's

just like that goes back to that sales and marketing if you have that you know the right ecosystem internally you know that can support the ecosystem externally then you know that's a Hallmark of a lot of the organizations

that that truly scale because there's some phenomenal Technologies out there some you know phenomenal organizations but you know and then they might be you know product LED and and might be Innovative and all that stuff but if you

can't you can't adequately support the the partners that are supporting you uh and show that investment and and taking out friction you know you know bi-directional friction working with the partners and you know it's uh and unfortunately we say that time and time

again you know in in Channel that's like and see so many great Technologies come out and they they don't they don't master that formula when you get that formula down um you know you're you're unstoppable and it seems like you guys are well on

the way uh to uh to becoming uh even even more of a uh I don't know a Titan of the industry well we're uh we got a ways to go um uh but uh we're committed and we're leaning we're leaning uh hard in that

direction um and again listening more talking less and and really staying close to uh to our partner community that's that's great so I guess you know kind of last question you know kind of touched on it and I know you've been

kind of immersed in in in structure and and you know planting the seeds to move forward but what is what does Sonic wall look like you know two years from now three years from now to be careful not to jinx myself I think

we're gonna look very different in three months um from now much less you know two or three years from now Kevin um we're we're leaning you know the partner revamp is is just one data point um we will be expanding our offerings

more service um oriented um we'll be adding capabilities that again are are I think our partners can then um include in their offering to their customers were changing up the way that we're supporting our customers as I mentioned

earlier we're putting significant resources around supporting our partners day in day out right just flat out headcount and resources on on Jason's team but you know even you know broader than that um RPM team um is is spending a considerable amount

of time just out listening asking questions as they formulate and update now our strategy and and product roadmap um so we will continue along those lines again you'll see some significant changes coming out of of sonic wall all

underpinned around you know um the offerings how we service how we charge more more monthly billing less you know all up front um and more Cloud focused um and and uh less of the the Legacy again that Innovation is so key can't

sit still um as you know cyber attacks change overnight um in in cyber security you have to to change not only your offering but also um how you're you're going to Market and driving you know the the various support

functions so you know that really needs be the constant and you know keeping an ear to the market to our partners is fundamental as we continue to make those pivots yeah that's excellent and I'm I'm the one looking forward to watching this

Evolution uh so I'll keep my my eyes and ears out as you guys uh as uh progress here over the next couple of months and uh yeah we're looking forward to some uh some big things from you guys so Bob I'm

gonna be uh respectful of your time and you know I really appreciate you jumping on and and we'll certainly have links to to uh the sonic wall on the show notes and and um you know we'll uh we'll

encourage everybody go check you out and um and uh you know go from there so so thanks for the opportunity Kevin very cool and uh you know you all have been huge supporters and and we really appreciate it so uh look forward to

continuing our dialogue that's for sure sounds good thanks bro all the best