Bigfoot Researcher: UFOs Are Piloted by Consciousness

Most of the public conversation around UAP right now is about the craft themselves, what's been recovered, and how it flies. Alongside that, though, runs a separate body of testimony from people the field calls experiencers, who say they've encountered the occupants of these craft, often at close range. Experiencers frequently describe the birds going quiet and the ambient sound draining out of the world around the encounter, and many report missing time or a sense that the beings were communicating with them directly mind to mind. In the 1980s, the British researcher Jenny Randles gave this cluster of experiences a name: the Oz Factor, after Dorothy stepping out of the farmhouse into a world that is no longer Kansas.

occupants of these craft, often at close range. Experiencers frequently describe the birds going quiet and the ambient sound draining out of the world around the encounter and many report missing time or a sense that the beings were communicating with them directly mindto

My guest today is Christopher Noel, a writer with a master's in philosophy from Yale, who taught for 20 years at Vermont College of Fine Arts for close to two decades. He's also done field work at what researchers call Sasquatch habituation sites, homes where families say the creatures have lived alongside them for years, sitting with those families and recording their stories.

My guest today is Christopher Noel, a writer with a master's in philosophy from Yale, who taught for 20 years at Vermont College of Fine Arts for close to two decades. He's also done field work at what researchers call Sasquatch

The same shift in awareness kept turning up in their accounts. And in his new book, The Anatomy of Thin Air, he traces that pattern through the experiencer literature. His nested field theory is an attempt to account for it. The theory is cataloged in the Landscape of Consciousness, Robert Lawrence Kuhn's survey of theories of mind, and it starts from modern physics where every particle is understood as a ripple in one of 17 underlying fields. Christopher proposes that consciousness is an 18th field and that some of these encounters are interactions with it. Christopher also argues that the craft and the beings experiencers describe may be manifesting temporarily from a level of reality we can't normally perceive and may not be traveling here from distant planets at all. If he's right, I want to know what disclosure would even mean. Please welcome our next guest, Christopher Noel.

The same shift in awareness kept turning up in their accounts. And in his new book, The Anatomy of Thin Air, he traces that pattern through the experiencer literature. His nested field theory is an attempt to account for it. The theory

Well, thanks for the very generous introduction. My on-ramp actually started almost half a century ago when I was a teenager and having a long conversation with an apparent ghost. My friend and writing mentor, an older woman who lived up the hill from me, told me that she was having strange things occur in the house. For instance, when she and her husband were in bed in the old part of the house, her husband would sometimes notice a tiny light come down from above and just hover over Catherine's head, and it would just stay there for a while and then sort of dissipate up. And that happened repeatedly. Also, in the old part of the house, they had a recurring pillar of light in the corner that didn't have any distinct features when you just looked at it, but if they would bring friends back there, everybody would look at it and then they would compare notes, and in their mind they all had this image of a sad older man hunched over with coveralls on looking like a farmer.

that some of these encounters are interactions with it. Christopher also argues that the craft and the beings experiencers describe may be manifesting temporarily from a level of reality we can't normally perceive and may not be traveling here from distant planets at

So, of course, being a curious young lad, I said, "Let's try to contact it." And, luckily, my friend was up for it. So, for the next five and a half months, we had an ongoing back and forth, enough to fill an entire blank book with questions and answers. I felt kind of like Roberts, what's her first name there? Who did the Seth material? Jane. Yeah, Jane Roberts. Yeah. I later learned about her. I said I was a lesser, a lesser like Jane, Jane Roberts, but we... How old were you when you did this again? How old? 15, 17? 17. That's so cool. That's such a 17-year-old thing to do. Like, you think... And my friend was in her late 20s, and yet she was into it too because we were just so curious. So we had... It's a long story. I'm not going to tell it here because it would get us off track, but we had, of course, a Ouija board, which the thing moved around so fast we could barely keep up with it, which is why, luckily, we couldn't transcribe the answers in real time because we were just us two. So we said them onto a cassette recorder, and what’s heard in the cassette recorder is a bell ringing, which we would always hear outside the window as a kind of signal that he was ready, that he was kind of present, but there was no physical bell out there, but we heard it on the cassette recorder. Lots to tell. He had apparently killed his daughter because she would not love me enough. So that sounded chill.

Well, thanks for the very generous introduction. Um, my on-ramp actually started almost half a century ago when I was um, a teenager and having a long conversation with an apparent ghost. Um, my friend and writing mentor, an older

We had lots of Ouija board and also automatic writing. Catherine tried to hold the pen in her right hand and suddenly shifted it to her left, her off hand, and wrote in this very elegant, curly Q, leaning penmanship that was utterly different from her own. And she would write the answers to our questions, and there were like 500 plus questions and answers. But what sticks in my mind with regard to our topic today is that one time I said to John, "I'm going on a family vacation, John, so I'll be back in a couple of weeks. So goodbye." I was in the old part of the house by myself. She had left. And so I just sort of said that to him. And as I turned away to go into the other room, I felt very distinctly a hand brushing the back of my head. It didn't feel like a fully solid hand. It felt like one-third to one-half solid, and the rest was... I mean, it didn't feel fully materialized, but it was definitely palpable, sweeping across the back of my head. And ever since that moment, I knew that the unseen world is nonetheless present all around us and can manifest itself intentionally when it wishes to.

light come down from above and just hover over Catherine's head and it would just stay there for a while and then sort of dissipate up. And that happened repeatedly. And also in the old part of the house, they had a a recurring pillar

So fast forward many decades, and I've been studying Sasquatch mostly and writing, making videos about the Sasquatch species and increasingly hearing stories about how they have these paranormal abilities, including the ability to disappear, which I, of course, was skeptical about being a healthy, rational person. And I didn't believe it until one day a couple years ago, I finally lost my virginity with regard to Sasquatch invisibility.

had this image of a sad older man hunched over with coveralls on looking like a a farmer.

I was in the forest on a May afternoon, broad daylight, 65 degrees, and I started hearing wood knocks, which is characteristic of Sasquatch. But these, I had plenty of 50 yards view all around me. And these wood knocks were within 15 feet. You could just hear it, but nobody was there.

to fill an entire blank book with questions and answers. I felt kind of like Roberts, what's her what's her first name there? Um, who did the Seth material?

And so I finally had the same type of experience that many describe. Hundreds of people describe these. They hear footsteps in the daytime, and they turn around, or in the nighttime, and they shine their flashlight, and there's nothing there even though the footsteps were just right there. Anyway, so that's a Sasquatch part. We may or may not get back to that.

17 That's so cool. That's such a 17year-old thing to do. Like you think and my friend was contact my friend was in her late 20s and and yet she she was into it too because we were just so

Then after 20 years of Sasquatch field research and writing about it, I decided to circle back to that first experience there and try to understand more about what these conscious agents are all about, the discarnate people and other intelligences. So I wanted to get a handle on what is the nature of the reality of this unseen world. You know, so many people say, "Well, it's another dimension," because we put so much value on our puny eyesight and our little less puny instruments that if anything's not available to them, we think, "Oh, it must be in some completely different place," you know, like another dimension, which implies that there's some barrier, some wholesale difference with this other place. Even though people say, "Oh, it comes from another dimension," no one really understands what that means. Scientists have extremely mathematical notions of what these dimensions are, but it's not some sort of concrete place that any of us can really sink our teeth into.

keep up with it, which is why luckily we um couldn't transcribe the answers in real time cuz we were just us two. So we we said them onto a a cassette recorder and what's heard in the cassette recorder is a bell ringing which which

But we just say it as a sort of a default or a band-aid solution. It's not really substantive. I think that the universe, uni means one. I think it's all one place. We share this one place with all the other gradations of fre...

recorder. Lots to tell. He had apparently killed her his daughter because she would not love me enough. So that sounded chill.

We had uh lots of Ouija board and also automatic writing. Katherine um tried to hold the pen in her right hand and suddenly shifted it to her left her off hand and wrote in this very um elegant curly q leaning penmanship that utterly

different from her own. And she would write the answers to our questions and there were like 500 plus questions and answers. But what what sticks in my mind with regard to our topic today is that one one time I uh said to John, uh I'm

going on a family vacation, John, so I'll be back in a couple weeks. So goodbye. I was in the old part of the house by myself. She had left. And so I just sort of said that to him. And as I

turned away to go into the other room, I felt very distinctly a hand brushing the back of my head. It didn't feel like a fully solid hand. It felt like 1/3 to 1/2 um solid and the rest was was I mean

it didn't feel fully materialized but it was definitely palpable sweeping across the back of my head. And ever since that moment I knew that the unseen world is um nonetheless present all around us and can manifest itself intentionally when

it when it wishes to. Um, so fast forward many decades and I I've been um studying Sasquatch mostly and writing um making videos about the Sasquatch species and increasingly hearing stories about how they um have these paranormal abilities, including

the ability to disappear, which I of course was skeptical about being a healthy, rational person. And I didn't believe it until one day a couple years ago, I finally lost my virginity with regard to Sasquatch invisibility.

And I was in the the forest uh on a May afternoon, broad daylight, 65°, and I started hearing wood knocks, which is characteristic of Sasquatch. But these I had plenty of I had 50 yards view all around me. And these wood

knocks were within 15t. You could you could just hear it and but nobody was there.

And so I finally had had the same type of experience that many describe. Hundreds of people describe these. They hear footsteps in the daytime and they turn around or in the night time and they shine their flashlight and there's

nothing there even though the footsteps were just right there. Anyway, so that's a Sasquatch part. We may or may not get back to that. it.

Then after 20 years of Sasquatch field research and and writing about it, I um I decided to circle back to that um that first experience there and try to understand more about what these um conscious agents are all about, the

the discarnate people and other intelligences. So I wanted to get a a handle on what is what is the the nature of the reality of this unseen world. You know, so many people say, "Well, it's another dimension because we put so much value

on our our puny eyesight and our little less puny instruments that if anything's not available to them, we think, oh, it must be in some completely different place, you know, like another dimension, which implies that there's a some

barrier, some some um wholesale difference uh with this other place. Even though people say, "Oh, it comes from another dimension." No one really understands what that means. Scientists have extremely mathematical notions of what these dimensions are, but it's not

some sort of concrete place that any of us can can u really sink our teeth into.

But we just say it as a sort of a default or a band-aid solution. Um it's not really substantive. I think that the universe uni means one. I think it's all one place. We share this one place with

all the other gradations of of frequency vibration that John Ke talks about. And these other these levels can manifest in our um our low density low frequency reality scape. And in manifesting they create empirical side effects that people that

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Why did you find yourself doing Sasquatch research? What was it about that that brought you into this? And how does that tie into or connect to the discarnate consciousness aspect of of where we're going?

Well, I'm shocked and and appalled by anyone who's not in intrigued by Sasquatch. I mean, my goodness, it's another human. They're they're our next ofkin on Earth. Everybody says, you know well but did you have an experience or was

there something that like kicked it off for you where you said, I'm going to put time and and energy into this and do research in the field?

I I just was my imagination was captured ever since I was about 11 and saw the Patterson film.

Sort of like half the people who see the Patterson film think, "Oh, that's that's a guy in a suit." Because our mind is we're only used to seeing upright walking primates like walking not like a gibbon all awkwardly, but walking

smoothly. We're used to seeing them as humans and we so our mind latches on to that um as a knee-jerk reaction.

And but the more you look into the biomechanics, the limb proportions and the uh evidence surrounding that day in 1967, the more you realize it's an actual specimen, a creature, a female Sasquatch. and it remains bizarrely the best footage all these

years later. Now, there's a documentary coming out that that seeks to debunk this footage, but they haven't released the supposed smoking gun on this. So, we'll wait and see. Um, but so I I just was drawn to this and I didn't know

there was any way to study it until uh many years later and I found out that there there was this organization that where people get together and go on expeditions and go out in the middle of the night in areas that have a long rich

history of Sasquatch sightings and they make sounds overtures to try to get responses from the local Sasquatch. And I went around with those people in the BFRO, Bigfoot Field Researchers Organization, for several years before I realized that there's a better way to

study the species, which is at so-called habituation sites. And this is in the in the uh tradition of Jane Goodall and Diane FSY that would habituate with their primate subjects which just means that gradually gradually reducing the uh

the fear and alienation and the um caution between the two species and you can you can start to get interaction.

And so I visited this one woman in East Texas and managed to get thermal footage of a Sasquatch um spying on several of us by a bonfire. And uh I would I had a thermal camera and I would go outside

the fire light every now and then and scan the tree line and I was hoping to see an upright enormous upright heat signature, but instead there was just a low bar of heat. So I thought, well, it's probably a rock or something that

that's keeping the heat from the daytime. But when I looked at the footage later, you can see I'm I'm describing this because people might want to go look at it on YouTube. It's called the woodpile Sasquatch because it was looking at us

through this lump pile of lumber. I I realized that it was a an arm. The the the horizontal heat signature was an arm reaching out and going like that several times. And I adjusted the contrast and you can see these two big

eyes looking through uh the whole hole in the wood pile. And you can see the cooler top of the head and the hot eyes here. I got it here. Do you mind if I pull this up while we're

No, but um it it takes a while and and I kind of give a bunch of context so it might take us off track.

You can just if you can find within it the uh just the footage of of the the the uh subject herself.

I think is it in thermal or is it in uh thermal? That's in thermal.

White white hot thermal. There she is. Yeah, there she is. So the the context is this is pitch black at night. You're using thermal.

It's Yeah, there's her hand. It's not pitch black because there's a huge bonfire. Um Oh, there's a bon. Okay.

Yeah. But um but I would step outside the the the most the you know the bright bright part. There's the bonfire.

And I would step out a few you know 50 60 ft and have a little bit more darkness and and I I scan the wood line and there she was. There she is. There's her eyes.

There's her right hand. And there's her the hole of her. She's reaching around essentially embracing the wood pile. Um, anyhow, I see an arm. Is this an arm and an arm?

The arm is over on the left, the leftmost. There's a fist later in the footage, but um, it's a little hard. You can see if you look in the middle of that opening, you can see two eyes.

They're a little fuzzy in this in the resolution on YouTube, but you can see the cooler top of the head right above the eyes.

And the left hand is um to the right our right from that tree there. And it's cupping the end of that log of that um board. Yeah, that's it right here.

Yeah. They don't interact directly. They interact indirectly. And by that I mean they don't come out in the daytime in front of you. They come out they at night she didn't know we could see her.

So she wasn't presenting herself for interaction. She was behind a barrier. They're almost always behind something.

Um, but luckily she was peeking out. We could see her. Um, but, um, the thing is, uh, they will, this could be a whole hour on Sasquatch, but just in a nutshell, they interact indirectly and and usually asynchronously, meaning you

can leave a gift out for them and like two and a half days later, you'll see it's gone and a pretty stone is put in its place. And on and on. people have had years of mediated communication through objects like that and it's

similar to how um autistic people will not directly interact but they they really want to commune with you but they have to do it through these roundabout means and I have a book called Sasquatch and autism where I I um go through 12

parallels between the two and that's a whole another story anyway how it leads to the unseen world is that my friend at this site where I filmed that um that one behind the wood pile claimed and I was skeptical. Claimed to be in touch

with that very one. There was a whole group, but that one was a female named Nentaya. My friend Linda claimed that she was in telepathic communication with it. And I said, "Oh, I'd like to I'd like to be pro have that proven to me."

And a whole series of uh of episodes chipped away at my skepticism. And I go through those in a book called Mind Speak about Sasquatch telepathy with lots of testimonials about how that works. And the last the last part that

like a home run drove my skepticism, the last nugget of it out of the park was on the final morning I was visiting her. It had been a terrible heat wave in East Texas in 2011 and we sat outside most of

the time drinking sweet tea and under a hickory tree and it's very do and I said um tell Naya that I I have to I'm about to leave for the airport and goodbye and I've loved being close to

her and hearing her at night knocking on trees and vocalizing. I said, "Ask if she can make a goodbye sound for me." And my friend Linda looked off into space and she said, "She says to wait." And I'm thinking, "Oh, sure." Oh, I

forgot to mention all these all these days like a a week of sitting outside all day, we had never heard a single wood knock. At night, we would, but never in the daytime because that's how they are. So, she says says to wait, and

I'm thinking, "Oh, well, it's not going to happen." Before I could even complete that thought, within 5 seconds, bam, from deep in the in in like deep, I say, just because it's so thick that I couldn't see anything, but like 100 ft

away, it was loud enough, close enough, 100 ft away, bam, a wood on wood, a slap of the tree, and that was the last of my skepticism. So I knew then and of course I had studied telepathy between humans

and how though there are all these um naysayers it has been demonstrated and is further being demonstrated by the telepathy tapes podcast and upcoming documentary that's going to blow everybody away and may win the Academy Awards coming out later this year. Um

telepathy is real. So consciousness can't be a product of of these three pounds of brain within our skulls.

So that kind of sent me around back to the unseen world and what is consciousness, the the basic nature of consciousness. And we can start to get a tow hold in it by just by considering what we do know. So, not only do we know

that people can engage in telepathy even across great distances, but remote viewing is perhaps more in the mainstream consciousness more established even though it's still not mainstream science. But in terms of its just um adoption by a lot of people

and it's being um presented in many many many practitioners are presenting it on on on online and remote viewing and remote viewing has been shown to be authentic. People can be given nothing more than a six-digit number.

And if they're good, if they're if they're gifted, and of course, it only takes one successful person to prove that consciousness itself, you know, is a certain way because consciousness is not going to be different in one person

from the rest of humanity. But many many gifted um remote viewers have been able to just look at that one number, concentrate, clear their mind, and begin to receive impressions of what the target is, what this number correlates to. And they can do this.

Joseph McMonagle, one of the most famous old school remote viewers, was able to home in on a Russian submarine across the other side of the world and see it see inside this vast um hanger that had been built. See what the submarine

looked like. But meanwhile, spy satellites had had not seen any such construction. And they so they thought it was a not a hit by him, a missed But then a few months later after he fully described this, they be they

pulled pulled this finished ship, the submarine out of the enclosure and down into the water and and the satellites saw that and verified and and there are so many of these proofs that it it worked. I think also if I if I'm not

mistaken McMonagle articulated a difference between getting information by going out of body, right, and getting information via RV. He said they're different tools for different types of work and they don't necessarily they're not mutually exclusive.

He said it's much more difficult with um with um projecting your consciousness out of your body, which is another demonstration that we're not limited to our brain. He said, um, because when you do that, you're curious and distracted

by all the things there are to see, whereas with remote viewing, you're you're laser focused on this one target anywhere in the world.

So over the years, people have tried to um understand the mechanism that allows for this to happen. Being very mechanistic people, we want a mechanism.

So they they put um remote viewers in Faraday cages to block out all known levels of rad um the electromagnetic spectrum. They're still able to able to perform up to the same level as they were outside the cage. They put him in

leadlined, you know, chambers and still works. Um, Stephen Steven Schwarz had this experiment where he put the target down in a sub in a submarine and it went down to the bottom of the sea and the Ramopia were still able to see the

symbols on the piece of paper inside the submarine. So, that ruled out all of the u of the portions of the electromagnetic spectrum that we're able to measure at least to detect. So it's been um an ongoing mystery just what the the

medium is for this knowing that people can accomplish. So I got to thinking, Lint, what what would be a ca a candidate category for a a field of information that is that that one can access no no matter where one is

that it's it's a what do you call non-local and these fields are called quantum fields and just a little parenthesis um we were taught in school most of us that the u basic building blocks of reality are are

are these elementary particles the fundamental particles that make up atoms of different elements and it all comes together to form the whole diversity of physical reality but in fact it has been known now and physicists don't come to

consensus about much but I've looked into it and really this is rock solid in terms of the phys physics community that underlying particles is a more fundamental bottom line reality which are these these fields and there are 17

elementary particles. People think there are more but some of them are combinations of different particles. If you get down to the bare bones, there's 17. And so there are se each one of these has its own quantum field which is

a you call it like a sea of potent a um a field of potential potential. It that gives rise to particles and then particles exist for a certain amount of time and then they return to this underlying state. The sort of lowest

default state of these fields is called the um the zero point. Is that the same as uh the unified field? David Lynch talks about the unified field in in transcendental meditation a lot dipping into Well, there is I mean you can put them

all together and because here's the thing about them that's hard to get your mind around. It's just that they're colllocated and ubiquitous present everywhere equally. Between my two fingers here are all 17 of the of the now um established quantum fields

because with whatever circumstance occurs they may need to give rise to a certain group of particles that form into something.

So the interference pattern between those 17 different fields is what we would detect in our but with our senses as our layer of reality. there's a there's an interference pattern that we are sensitive to because they're they're they're

colloccated and so um they're not really a interaction in the sense that we normally think of it. Uh I found out that the they are non-local. They are um I have all this material about it but I I

need to just not lean on that. just walk us through it. It's I I I think it's more intuitive than uh to most people than you might think.

You can envision these fluidlike fields that go everywhere in the world here and alpha equally equally in terms of being there, but they're different ratios and proportions and intera and I say interactions, but that's a shortcut.

They they they conspire to form all the matter that we know. Um, and when they're in their default state, this zero point, the lowest energy state where there are no um particles that are um forming and staying put and and um

being put to get to build um matter. They are, as the science scientists say, maximally maximally entangled, meaning that something that happens here is not distinct from something that happens a thousand lighty years away. there. It's like um a uh a fabric. You touch

something here, it responds there and vice versa. Or not even response that makes it seem like it's faster than light. it it simultaneously there's and is that irrespective of of any kind of time like dimension at all like this

exists outside of well it does exist outside of time because um the particle spaceime is is a sort of derivation of these fundamental fields so it is outside of time and that's another thing that's why remote viewers to get back to that can see the

future sometimes and cla clairvoyance happens. Precognition happens. People predict disasters and the death of a loved one. That's because at the level of consciousness there is no linear time. Everything in a sense is happening at once. But that's a so

that's sort of an offshoot. But um so what I'm thinking what I thought of and coming up with this this um the research for this this new book the anatomy of thin air is well what's a good candidate

for consciousness to be an information field separate independent autonomous separate from our body that can access any information for somebody just sitting in a chair in one one location.

It's a field that just like these quantum fields has maximum entanglement. Meaning something that is true over there like if you try to remote view a document in North Korea that document is a piece of information in the overall scheme of things and like

like you said McMaggle said it's not your yourself or your consciousness traveling to North Korea. It's attuning to the frequency at which that piece of information exists or occupies where it occupies because there an infinite number of frequencies. That's another thing I

found out that I didn't know is that in between any two frequencies there's an infinite number of further gradations infinite which I I thought that's impossible but what I what I found out is that just between like between the

number one and two there are infinite number of of of um real numbers uh in between those two and same thing and it's also true that there's no upper and lower limit to the the frequencies involved in reality

above gamma we just can't measure. But but theoretically it there's no boundedness on the upper side. So I that got me thinking well so what if this what if consciousness has these characteristics um known by means of remote viewing and

telepathy and even communication with the afterlife whereby it's all unified and it must contain virtually infinite information.

And it's true that the higher the frequency of something, the more information it can carry, the more bandwidth it has. And down here, we're stuck in this um high entropy, comparatively low information.

Yeah. We're like VHS down here. Yeah, exactly. And most of our communication, 99% of it worldwide is still in radio waves. And just gamma rays comp compared to radio waves can theoretically contain more than a trillion times more information because

of of the um of the cycles per second. It's just ridiculous. And so I think that um in order for consciousness to have access to basically all information as such it must be at a high high frequency above what we can measure so

far which is why Faraday cages haven't been able to screen it out. And you know it really is information as such. The one the father of modern remote viewing Ingo Swan remote viewed Jup Jupiter and saw that there were two

rings of debris around Jupiter and all the scientists said well you're wrong on that one. Uh and then a couple years later the Voyager probes went past Jupiter and filmed photographed these rings. So it's like you can So you're you're describing and and

correct me if I'm getting this wrong, but you're describing what sounds like the the soup of of reality, the ocean of reality that we all sit in is happening all the time like all con all the time.

There is no the time dimension is sort of immaterial here. And that it's it's like thermal layers in the ocean. Some organisms at different levels can exist within their thermal band and they can or I'm using thermal that's not the

right word but their frequency band analogy. It's an analogy. Yes. And they would have sensory organs that could perceive things. They could they would be tuned to operate and survive and evolve within that band but not other bands. Right. So that's why down

here for us we we have in this we're set up for the dimension that we're not dimension but the the band that we're in.

Yes. Yeah. And the thing is that fish, marine animals can um cross those boundaries of comfort and they can go to different um temperatures. We're we're using temperature to stand in for um for vi for frequency. They can go, but it takes

a a um an exertion of energy to do that. If they get cold, they have to work against that cold to maintain homeostasis.

And there's a limit, an upper and lower. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A similar thing happens when a conscious agent and consciousness is by default invisible when it manifests. I mean this is me just proposing this.

Most of us all of us who are proposing anything like this are going to turn out to be wrong. We're just trying things out throwing spaghetti. But I in my view when a a a conscious agent manifest to us visibly

or palpably or with through our instruments it has to reduce its its frequency. And this is what you'll you'll forgive me. This is what dead people describe all the time when they communicate in to a a genuine medium authentic or in a seance

situation a real seance. I've been in them. I can describe them for you. They say they have to reduce their frequency and the the seance members have to try to raise their consciousness frequency so that there's a a meeting in the

middle, but it's it's usually very very localized and very brief because it takes energy. Um Seth talked about and Jane Roberts talked about this a lot. Jane would get really tired.

She'd have to take a day or two off and then come back. Exactly. So many of the so many authentic mediums, especially physical mediums that aren't just getting information like Jane Roberts, but um facilitating things like levit object levitation and

materialization brief materialization of spirits into a visible form they just get sucked I mean they lose weight they lose lots of weight they have to um recover over days and weeks after a sess a major session like that but what I'm

saying is that so when these things happen and then you can go across the domains of the paranormal like you have a when ghosts manifest themselves I mean people who are dead manifest themselves as spirits when UAP land and or aliens

show themselves and interact or come come near or in the case of encounter encrypteds for me especially Sasquatch there's this this oz factor where the atmosphere changes it feels like you've stepped into a a different reality just a different setting a different register

of reality where many things happen for inance instance um in thermodynamics and this is what I like to do is like try to demystify this by by basing it in known reactions in nature. See so in thermodynamics when there's a change of

a system or of a there's a state change in a system that requires that that releases energy and pulls energy from one um source into another because it takes that energy just like a fish going into deeper level. Glad you brought up

that metaphor. It's helpful. And so um so the energy that it takes to manifest across these domains of high strangeness is is garnered by taking electromagnetic energy which in the case of like a haunting or or the other two will mess

up our electronic equipments will drain our batteries will um you know uh street lights will explode um cars vehicles will suddenly lose all their electricity and stop only to start out start up again when the craft takes off because

those would be the localized effects that people see and report. But what you're saying is there's actually a a a bubble of of of effect that is happening around a craft like this affecting all these different layers.

Right. Right. Okay. Yeah, kind of like the bubble at Skinwalker Ranch, but the the the the uh the breaking of the waves that we're able to really see is the sparks coming out of electronics or the the haywire behavior from

that's the kickback. See, and this is why, okay, just I step back again a little bit here. Always stepping back, but you need need this context. Broadly speaking, in the history of thinking about consciousness, there have been two

categories of e explanation or paradigms. One is that consciousness is derived from the brain completely. The other is idealism that where consciousness is is the fundamental principle out of which everything else arises. And I find that it's um possible

to get traction on paranormal experiences better in a hybrid model where um you take a middle a middle road and use the fruit the fruitful uh aspects of both sides of this. Um so that um consciousness is not just from

the brain nor is it everything. It's It's part of nature. It's physical energetic just the way anything else is because it can't just be some immaterial realm because it wouldn't be able to interact with our material world. It's

got to be part of it. And this is shown by the sort of um tension or dynamic or um conflict that occurs when um consciousness raises its usual ratio because it's everywhere equally usually but it can locally raise its ratio and

this creates all kind of kickback phenomena. Could you um I think one of the challenges that people run into with conversations as as complex and nuanced as this is that that you know one term like consciousness carries a lot of

weight and it's like that might not be the most accurate term. Is there is are is there a distinction between consciousness as a substrate as the ocean in which we all swim, the water we can't see, and then

the com concentrated bundle of intelligence that you would refer to as a you or an I, an individual person having experience within that larger framework? How how do you separate those two?

Does that make sense? Well, they're not separated. They're continuum. Um the poet roomie said if I may be pretentious for a moment um he he said you are not only the drop in the mighty ocean but the mighty ocean in the

drop. So it's all continuous but there's um there's um a focus of consciousness within conscious agents individual um steel I don't is a a vague term um but but an individual personality an individual yeah yeah sure and I think that there are there are all

sorts um spectrum of of consciousness conscious agents or intelligences that exist in the unseen realm not not in another dimension But as it were right here, um those depictions of of photographs of the aura oric field or um the energy body or the atheric body

where you see like there's a physical representation of the body, but then there are also these higher vibrational representations of the body that exist coexist in the same space but differently on these various planes. Is that is that in line with what you're

talking about this field? There are there are minute gradations of of frequency even within a uh an individual and our u etheric body or there's all there's million different terms across cultures but our consciousness is embodied right now and it separates at death and it's

very straightforward to me having watched 1500 near-death experience testimonials and such like that. Uh, and I'm a fan of interacting with a ghost myself.

I'm a fan of studying uh in in a casual way. I I watch a lot of NDE accounts and I I just find Can't get enough of them. Yeah.

I I can't either. I I really find them fascinating, but I I just if anything, they make me feel much more comforted in the notion that that it's actually a a far less of a big deal than people make it out to be. crossing

over. It's one of the first things Seth says in Seth Speaks. He's I think it's actually on page one. He's kind of like it's the it's it's the biggest like nonissue ever. Being born is way harder than than dying, which I thought was

really hilarious. Yeah, that's what that's what they all say, so to speak. That's what when Easy for you to say.

I know. When you have a say, if that is your name, when you have a uh a discarnate individual um come through uh and communicate with the living, they all say you're just you're just you're neurotically they don't say

neurotically, but you're way over overestimating the enormity of dying. It really is. You you finish you start a thought while you're alive and you finish that same thought when when you're outside your body.

And it really is just that straightforward. Where were we here? Um well, we're still on target. to your broader point or hypothesis, I think I if if I'm getting it, is that the the common thread that really links all this

together is that the mystics and the religious texts and all of the human recorded history going back thousands of years plus oral traditions of native peoples, indigenous people are all basically kind of saying, "Hey, this is sort of how it works." Um, and

and we're having a really hard time in Western culture wrapping our minds around that, right? Like this is you you're explaining with this really elegant concept how all of these things happen and it seems to account for poltergeist activity, ghost activity,

UFOs, UAPs. I I mean I I want to get to the hardware aspect of this because that's a the nuts and bolts thing that people are going to ask about, but in broad strokes just the idea that our

individual consciousnesses are already in this ocean and can freely access it if you know the right techniques or know what to do. I think that's really interesting.

Yeah, exactly. And um the interesting thing is that if once you take as a u proposition that consciousness I didn't quite say this yet I think consciousness is the 18th quantum field highest the highest vibrational level highest frequency

it it is colllocated everywhere with the other 17 because they're all colllocated. So, it's all right here between my fingers.

And I think that the fascinating startling thing about about about of the fundamental fields is that not only do they contain information which is needed to make the different um constituents of physical reality, but they can affect physical reality. Of

course, the 17 can because we know it it is the very the very um author of physical reality.

But this 18th 18th quantum field maximally entangled with itself would explain how a remote viewer can sit in Cincinnati and tune in to something happening in Beijing because it's all this unified fabric in which all every thread is connected to every other

thread. Um, so it's not a matter of searching and finding. Um, or as McMonicle said, it's not going out of the body. It's it's just tuning into that level of frequency. And because of that thing that that Roomie said that

we're not just a drop in the ocean, but the ocean in the drop, finding the target of a remote viewing assignment is analogous to consulting our own mind to find something that we've forgotten or that we know or that we know we know,

but we're not quite. It's on the tip of our tongue and Oh, yeah. That's what it is. It's There's no distinction between those two.

That's really interesting uh to to highlight because it's it's also Seth was my way into a lot of this stuff. The the Seth Speaks book and then the Seth series and I listen to the uh audio books. Uh and I've I've listened

to Jane's original recordings too, Jane and Robert's recordings which I think are really interesting vocal and fantastic, aren't they? in it's just the way channelers changed physic, you know, the way they speak and their uh it would be interesting to take all of those

recorded sessions and feed them into an AI and run some analysis on it to see what what else we could learn. But one of the things that I wanted to mention earlier that I thought you and I were kind of

laughing about it because you understand, you know, the Seth material, you're familiar with it, is the sense of humor that some of these in discarnate or non-physical beings have. It seems that on the other side or at least

wherever they're broadcasting from, they do have a pretty pretty healthy sense of humor about a lot of stuff because they have perspective and humor humor requires perspective and the more perspective that you have, the funnier everything gets in a way. So you're

you're a fan of authentic channeling and of course channeling gets a bad rap. It's kind of like um a a black sheep of the family of parasychology, but when it's real, it's it's real. I I I I want

to recommend to our listeners, if there are any left after everything I've been trying to say, um that two two sources where you can um hear the dead talking to the living in a very casual way that really demystifies this whole situation.

One is called the blue circle and it's uh you can find it on YouTube because they recently decided to let in the rest of the world. They've been having um small sessions. It's called a home circle. Uh these um sances uh that

were all the rage back in the day still exist and their home circles. Leslie Kaine is a part of a home circle and we'll get to her shortly. Uh but the blue circle it has been going for 18

years and for the first 16 of those years they were just doing it privately and gradually it takes a long time because it's difficult like those fish going different level but it more difficult than that um it takes a long

time for the um the efforts the the um intention of the uh spirit to match up with the intention of of the um mediator. creators. And there's this one member of the group of blue circle that is able to

suspend his own mind or have his own mind suspended and the mind of the these two communicators come through and they speak through his his vocal cords and they're utterly distinct. These two um sometimes a third speaker. One's a

woman, one's a young a young man who died when he was six in like 1850. And he's he's he's there because there's no linear time up there. It might as well be yesterday for him. And he talks. And

speaking of sense of humor, he is hilarious. His name is Anthony. And the the the home circle, I mean, the uh blue circle meets um most Tuesdays at 8:00 England time, so 3:00 East Coast time.

And you can just um listen in on YouTube. I recommend it. It is fantastic. Sometimes they have a blank session which only adds to the cred to the credibility where nothing will happen. And that happened yesterday, 2 days ago. Just they'll sit there for an

hour and 10 minutes and and play music, soft music, and and nothing nothing will come through because either the um conditions aren't quite right vibrationally um or the um the uh conscious uh agents are trying experiments. They're going to try to do

what's called direct voice where they don't have to use the vocal cords of the medium, but just talk in the air. Uh, and it's very rare, but it happens. So, which leads me to the second recommendation. It's called the Leslie

Flint seance. For 60 years, now get a load of this. For 60 years, this man Leslie Flint, who has a a great autobiography called Voices in the Dark, after finding out as a young man that he, for whatever reason, had the

capacity physically or or spiritually to facilitate conscious agents, individuals to speak near him in the air.

And there's there's efforts at explanation of this, but suffice it to say they they can do it. And he then formed a um a a regular home circle. And over the years, he had thousands of visitors come in because it was 60

years. And for all those years, the same um there's usually a uh a light-hearted spirit that kind of is the master of ceremonies and and can um try to get other voices warms up the room. That's so awesome. That's so human. That's so

real. Like that's the kind of thing you would expect. Sure. And in the Leslie Flynn situation, it was this guy named Mickey. This kid named Mickey. And he's just so funny. You got to go. There's a uh let's see, there's a website that has

tons and tons and tons. They started recording it in the 1950s once recorders, you know, it started in the 30s and it went till the early 90s. It's crazy. And the same kid Mickey was there the whole time. And the beginning you

can hear he's he's he's makes a lot of effort to talk. It's difficult. And by by the midsection of that, he's just it's as easy as talking to anyone. And um you can it's called the the Leslie Flint Trust

is how to look that up uh to search for that. and you could hear tons and tons of of it. Um, and this guy Leslie Flint was perfectly willing to have experiments done on him. People thought he was throwing his voice. So

experimenters put microphones on his throat. You could see a picture online of microphones taped to his throat and the voices still still and and the better he got at it or the better the spirits got with him, they could talk

farther away from him. So the voices came from the top of near the ceiling.

Um and and they they they uh they as opposed to the blue circle which really has three speakers that come through, they had hundreds of different speakers, all sorts of people.

Let me and they all described what it was like when they died and and how they acclimated themselves to the afterlife environment and how it is to speak. It's like one of them said it's like trying to talk underwater because everything is

so thick and dense down here. It's such a weird when you read these ch like the raw material and you read these channelneled sessions and you and you see the commonalities between how they talk about reaching someone here and actually

transmitting information from there to here in a way that can be useful, you know, and then it's got to be translated into English and that you you're even more limited and it's like, well, what word is the right word to to communicate

a telepathic They they sometimes ask um Anthony in the blue circle about that and he says, "Well, it's like has this little cochney cochnney accent. Um it's very cute." And uh he uh he says, "Well, it's not really any different from you

know, you have to your thought moves your tongue." And when I'm sort of occupying temporarily occupying the uh the mind of the medium in in there, I'm I'm operating his tongue. It's the same thing. It's it's it's the same thing in

terms of the sort of mechanics mechanics but it's much more difficult when you're dead because you know it's not your element and you know after an hour or so he's exhausted has to go has to go and the medium is exhausted too.

If you zoom out and you just kind of take a light-hearted view about the world and our role in it and our time here on Earth, it's funny because we there's this there's this larger world that's just totally omnipresent and

aware of everything that's going on here and then you have these humans who were born, you know, maybe a hundred years you live we're born with no memory. We have no idea where we're going, but it's all you're just in this little window

and we're frantically trying to figure it out. And all of these sages and mystics and and and channelneled uh intelligences are saying the same thing.

They're like, "Relax. It's okay. It's all fine." Yeah. And for some individuals, the information bleeds through. Like in the reincarnation kids, you've no doubt been fascinated by those as anyone should be.

Those uh you're talking about the little kids who have past life memories. Yeah. Two or three years old, they give all these details, then it fades away by six or seven because it's supposed to fade away. And most of us, we don't have

access to those other uh times we those visits we've had to to Earth. And I think I think that it's important to um stress that it's not again it's not some other place. It's right here.

Um Nigel Kerner, who I know you had a long interview about a few months ago, he said that when we die, when you die, you go to the space between atoms. And that again is um sort of uh was a

guidepost that statement was a guidepost for my thinking that consciousness the consciousness field is the highest vibration the highest because in that sense it it is able to nest within all the others by being the smallest wavelength like all the other

fields. It's ubiquitous utterly ubiquitous. There's no gaps anywhere in the entire universe. And but it's it's operating at the lowest density, the highest frequency because with high frequency comes low density in physical terms and the highest information um

carrying capacity because higher frequency allows for more information. So it would have to be if it's an information field on the one hand and a and a physical information is physical but on the other hand you can say a

physical just as much as all the the other um substrates of reality are then since it's the highest frequency it's also the smallest in terms of its um peaks and valleys and it fits within the negative spaces of all the others.

You know, you've heard that atoms are mostly empty space. Not really empty cuz there's a electron probability cloud within it, but that's not a barrier to frequency operating with within it.

There's plenty of real estate down there for cautionist to nest. And it's sort of similar uh to pan pan um psychism. But in that case, it's all about physical matter that that is imbued with consciousness. They don't Fans psychism

doesn't allow for these invisible um conscious agents to interact with that matter. It's just about the stuff that we see around us.

So it's different in that sense. I I didn't know that. Is that where pansychism stops? And and what I found out it is if you can correct me anyone out there correct me please. Um by the way my my uh anyone

can contact me at uh my website is the nearnessofw.net that which goes right to what I'm trying to say about the inwardness the everywhere of consciousness and how it's um when we die we go to the space between atoms and

I would say within atoms if you made the um nucleus of an atom the size of an apple one side to the other the di diameter would be 5 miles just tons of area in there and so I'm thinking that

this um 18th quantum field exists nestled and nested down inside everything. And you know, Matthew Pines, that um annoyingly brilliant uh philosopher uh physicist, every time he talks, I think I might as well just hang it up because he's too smart for me. Um

he has something that helped me out a lot on recent Jesse Michaels. He says, quote, "I think instead of civilizations expanding out to the universe, maybe they just basically collapse into its basement inside matter. We're looking for civilizations that are transforming

their local galactic neighborhood, right? Doing massive infrastructure projects to convert stars into, you know, Dyson spheres into and more probes. Whereas that may be amateur hour like most civilizations might realize, why bother, right? when there's a whole shortcut. We can just break into the

basement and then we've got root access to reality. Just embed down at the smallest scale and just disappear.

And I was happy to hear hear him say that because that really dubtales with the way I'm thinking of consciousness.

And I think that the alien consciousness is down there with with us because all consciousness is at the same level.

There are differenti different colorations of it in terms of frequency like in the ocean metaphor and I I think that our consciousness overlaps with the alien consciousness but that they're they're very different but we can communicate telepathically those overlap right there.

Tom Dong also used an analogy of a consciousness submarine. Have you ever heard him say this where he's like he's like what think of a UFO like a consciousness submarine that can like change its voltage and then this is his

word you know his words and I'm butchering it too but then it just appears in our in our space but it's colloccated with us.

Exactly. Well and I was like that sounds like very much like what Matthew Pines is talking about.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, Kelly Chase said recently and she might have gotten it from Dong, I don't know, but I I I attribute it to her. She said, um, alien craft are more like submarines than spacecraft because instead of

traveling great distances, they they descend through densities. And I really love that. I I I I have I quoted that in my book because it's it's right on line with how I'm trying to um construe all this. Um, now

I want to pivot on that point to the to the hardware if you don't mind. Is is that all right?

Yeah. Oh, I was going to talk about the what what consciousness can do physically, not just in terms of information. How it has kinetic power powers but well, let's let's go there because I think that the the chief question among

the nuts and bolts people is going to be, look, we have whistleblowers that have told us there are physical craft that are stored in hangers. There's there's machinery that's been taken out of these things that's sitting on a

bench somewhere and there are bodies. there's a lot of of of tangible real material uh evidence that we're just waiting to see. So, how does the the nested field theory account for physical artifacts that are present in these um

technology? Each of us, each of us is a physical artifact, too. And yet, we are mostly we are consciousness essentially. We're just using this physical vessel. And same is true with See, I think I need to get there by

means of the um formative power and the kinetic power of consciousness because not it's not only a storehouse of information, but it it can do work. It can get get physical, so to speak. And perhaps um this will lead back to your

question. You got to trust me. You gota but perhaps we could play that video um that we mentioned I mentioned we talked about it much long time ago. I'm chatting I'm sending you that link.

We'll figure it out. This happens every time. This is like every 10 minutes in is when you want to cut this.

Each interview is a snowflake. A unique snowflake there. That's beautiful with it own challenges.

Test. Oh, send. I probably should hit send. There it is. Got it. Okay, here we go. Let me just do this. Boop. And then oh Leslie. Okay, here we go. Yep. And this we are in Chrome and that is

video evidence of psychokine. Okay, here we go. I really doubt that there is any more authoritative, credible journalistic voice on paranormal phenomena than Leslie Kaine, whose UAP books and her profound book surviving death are go-to sources for objectivity and accuracy.

For years now, she has attended a seance in England in which scientifically impossible events regularly occur. I mean, there is some kind of forces at play here. When you can sit in a room and watch objects levitate before your

eyes, which I've done many times, there's got to be a a physics. There's got to be a scientific explanation of what is going on to make that happen.

And I wish that more scientists were curious about this. I mean, this is actually happening.

This levitation occurred on the front porch of a house in western New York at which in June of 2023 I myself witnessed other objects, not tables this time, rising into the air with nobody touching them.

More recently in Germany, this group filmed their psychokinesis experiment under the exacting eye of a PhD computer scientist and one of the very few in academia brave and curious enough to investigate such matters. Yes, he's quite exhilarated here because they were

finally able to capture this phenomenon on camera. These folks are working in a long rich tradition stretching back more than a century and a half and sometimes captured on film many generations before photoshop.

Philosopher Dr. Steven Broady is an ameritus professor at the University of Maryland and has been studying such matters for more than 40 years.

I've studied a guy in Argentina named Ariel Faras. Um, great thing about Ariel is that he doesn't require darkness. Uh, he's a regular guy. Again, like the best psychic subjects, he's not interested in being uh a psychic guru. He's a regular

family man. Uh, he's got a good day job. He's interested in uh understanding what's going on.

He found to his surprise that he's able to make tables rise by touching them lightly uh at the close end of the table.

And we've got some very good video of the table rising under Ariel. Ariel cannot fully levitate the table.

People's psychic abilities vary, but his results have been documented in the Journal of Scientific Exploration, a peer-reviewed publication founded back in 1987.

in the fake version of table levitation. You'll notice that there's always a concealing cloth involved.

Into this is fitted a stiff wire which is easy to manipulate. Do you really think that researchers and scholars whose reputations have been built on publishing books about this phenomenon and others related to consciousness would be taken in by such cheap tricks?

Or that if somehow they were, nobody would ever have come forward to out them? And why do you think that illusionists back in the day even got the idea to mimic such effects if not as an effort to grift off the real McCoy?

Dr. Carlos, professor, we can stop there if you want. That's really interesting. Yeah. So, go ahead. Well, I mean, a couple obvious questions jump to mind, which is that um, you know, the table seems very like the lightest plastic,

you know, patio table, the the first one, and then I think the second one was the same type of table. Has anybody levitated a table that weighs 300 lb?

Like a big ass, not on camera, but but um lots lots of um documentation back in the day. Not not recently. There's And not not on film, in on video. I mean, on photographs, you can see a lot of the

tables that um I showed in the middle of that that video that they're up in the air and they're heavy. Um and you know, could you could you levitate I mean by by the principle if the principle is is

sound, right? You could levitate anything. It doesn't have to be a table. That's exactly the point. It's a difference in degree, not a difference in kind. And this brings us to how what what's the relationship between levitating a a garden table and a

massive metallic craft flying through the air. The engineers and scientists who have been um attempting to for years to understand the nature of UAP propulsion are I think barking up the wrong tree, the tree of materialism. And I like to

distinguish between a small materialism, which is what we've known and what we're all what our our culture is mired in right now, which is which says that the only thing that's real is what can be measured and perceived detected by

instruments and a capital materialism which includes now this 18th field which is consciousness. And it's a field of energy really and it can transform into into mass but it's it's energetic and it can affect the physical world in ways that are analogous to but

um radically more um magnified than what we just saw. So for instance um for instance I think that the alien consciousness sorry I think the root of the problem in in in interpreting this stuff is that people vastly under estimate the

formative power of consciousness. I think not only because if you can because it can interact if it can interact at all with the physical world and change the nature of objects such that they are lighter than air briefly.

It can also and it does this from from within like um like u Matthew Pines was saying down inside and kerner is saying between atoms I think that's where consciousness lives and it can expand its ratio within say a table or any

object such that the ratio of super low density um material and the table's own native density can shift so that it it it becomes lighter than air. It's more complicated than that, but um that's a shorthand version of it.

That mechanism would account for uh some of the transmedium things that we see these craft do pass through solid objects like a mountain side or go into the ocean without making a splash or or abductees often report being abducted

through a solid wall. Exactly. density. All of these are density modulations that um allow a physical object to become less dense. It's it's um you know the the poly exclusion principle where the reason something feels solid is that there's this

resistance uh because the poly's poly wolf gang poly was scientists studied electromagnetism and you can't have two atoms occupying the same space or two molecules occupying the same space because there's this repulsive effect like a mag magnetic repulsion. this has to be suspended in

an object for it to then be able to pass through another object. So, so the the the higher consciousness is able to somehow operate out of phase or or or phase matter in a way in such a way that it makes

that permeable permeable and and yeah okay and and less effectively less dense because you can you can man you can um make it malleable and this is again this is again another reason that I I think that the consciousness field needs

to be the highest frequency of anything else in in nature because the higher the frequency the greater the energy and I think it takes a lot of energy to change to nullify or or temporarily suspend these electronic bond these electric

bonds. Can I let me let me throw a weirder question at you and and I wonder if you've given this any thought, but do you think using this framework as our jumping off point then the uh the intelligences that

that inhabit uh we'll call it a higher density or or at a higher level a higher frequency lower are able to well lower yeah the higher the frequency the lower the density the higher the frequency someone from up

a level can can come down but but someone at our level cannot necessarily go up.

Yes, that's that's another um known physical um kind of rule is that it's it's the arrow of influence it's called and higher higher um energy systems can affect lower energy in a way that not true vice versa. This is why we

can be the dead can haunt us but we can't haunt the dead. Right. Okay. So then proceeding from there at that level at a higher level let's say the level uh wherever the level is that the grays originate from

let's just say that they arrive here in what we would describe as a physical craft. If you take Bob Lazar at his word then it's it's a very mechanical looking object but there's no moving parts. It's seamless. There's almost nothing inside.

It's it it sounds like if if we were to try and figure out how that could work with with what you're saying, it sounds like the the craft is a consciousness amplifier almost or some kind of it's right. It it is the result of its

performance characteristics are the result of the pilot using consciousness to literally and they don't have to be inside. Some of them are empty. Some of them are are are spheres of of plasma. It's consciousness can control and animate

matter. So it can animate spheres of plasma and and lots of these orbs that people see make sense because if a conscious agent wants to manifest and hang out for a while in this this level, it's a very efficient, very low, very

inexpensive in terms of energy to be a sphere. That's the most efficient shape. And so you see spheres that are making use of the raw materials of the this lower um region. So they there's plasma all over the place. they can um gather

it together and make it into a spirit because this is what we're getting to in this conversation is that the formative power of consciousness. Now to get back to the nuts and bolts I'll take a slight detour which is you'll see is is uh

pertinent. I don't to me it makes no sense to think of um aliens and I put that in quotes as being from a foreign planet or several foreign planets because um the amount of contingencies, flukes, twists and turns

in the narrative of the um natural history of our planet are such that it's vanishingly unlikely that we even we humans would have evolved. For the first three billion years, there were only single-sellled organism on organisms on the planet. Most planets with life, I

believe, are probably going to be at that level because it was a fluke that at one point we these single-sellled organisms began to ingest a certain kind of um smaller organism that itself had this long evolutionary history. Instead

of digesting that, it became an a resident of these cells. It became an endo symbiotic partner and it those u ingested uh beings became the mitochondria that gave energy to cells that allow them to to develop over the next 500,000 years into

more complex multis-elled organisms. And I could I won't bore you, but there's all sorts of I have a book called Homegrown Monsters. The whole long first chapter is all sorts of examples of the unlikeliness of on this planet the body

plants that we see around us the insects and the reptiles and the primates especially would have evolved to be just the way they are. And when people describe the aliens it's almost always in the in the terms of insectile or

reptilian or humanoid. I think that consciousness being invisible, nonfor non-formed in our physical sense can make use of the raw materials, the zoological raw materials in our history, in our planet's history. And perhaps it's been doing so since way way way

back. Um, you know, um, insects and reptiles were two of the of the first complex animals to arise. So to me it's no surprise that these are the forms that that the uh alien consciousness takes on and they also take on our our

form. I think that they can form I don't know how they do it in terms of the using our our genetic genetic raw material but you know how abductees will often talk about how they see what do you call bat not bats um tubes

with with fetuses in I think they grow. That's why they need to take our our genetic material, men and women, and implant fetuses sometimes in women that are apparently evidently a cross between alien DNA and human DNA. Um, so in in in

some sense, it's a very straightforward mechanical instrumental kind of way of of um ma of making hybrid beings.

But one more part and and but it we they wouldn't even be able to hybridize with us as most of us have gradually become come to think is the case unless they had DNA that's compatible with our DNA

and that's not going to evolve on a separate planet. And if people are talking about pan panspermia where there was an initial um genesis of life and it seeded on lots of different planets, well that just puts us back to the

beginning where we had 3 billion years of microbes um because the seeding of life would occur in the beginning where life suddenly became came to to exist.

And so we'd still be stuck with tens of hundreds of thousands of quirky evolutionary pathways that that uh eventuated in the the species that we see around us today. So that wouldn't really answer it.

So if we were working on a on an informationbased substrate, right, like a system of of where where matter is really kind of an illusion, right? Is that a proper way to think about this?

No, that would be the case with idealism where consciousness is the only thing and it and matter is an illusion. Matter is real. It's as real. That's why when a conscious agent manifest in a in a paranormal event, it creates all this

back uh this uh talkback and kickback in in the in environment because it's it's as real as everything else because it's all part of nature. So if a if an information uh if a consciousness that is disembodied, let's just call it a

non-physical intelligence that is trying to reach down into our level, it's going to have to assume a form that is survivable here, right? And so in in the in the larger information field, it's going to look out and try to find something that makes

sense for it to use to to to as a scaffold almost or an avatar.

So you're saying that an insect or a reptile would represent probably a larger footprint because they've been here longer and there's more body plans and body styles. So it if this intelligence was trying to grab onto something, it might grab a body style

like that. use that body style as its avatar here, operate in whatever form or fashion it needs to exchange information with us, maybe not, whatever, and then it can go, it'll bamboo um back back up and and its

body will dis will dissolve. But now, this circles back to your original question, you'll be happy to hear.

Why do we have bodies? Why do we have craft in in hangers? um if they just dissolve back in because if they if you know the grays that people see in their bedroom, they will appear sometimes out of nowhere and sometimes they'll seem to

be um half half materialized. People say they look like they're made of light. Jacqu Valle quotes a farmer saying that he asked them what are you made of and they say we are made as it were of of

air. So it's this density modulation and then they they rerify after their task is complete normally, but they're still genuinely physical when they're down here. So they can be captured and killed. And the craft that I'm I'm proposing are made of the minerals,

metallic minerals, um raw material of our planet, which is why they are always going into volcanoes. That's a very uh immediate source of iron and magnesium.

Um it's not that they have a base underground. I think it's that they're they're harvesting raw materials to make their chips. And this is why the ships look like they're um forged from one piece. They're not.

They are literally almost dreamt into existence by a higher frequency consciousness that can materialize it out of you collaborate on the next book.

You're you're putting this stuff better than I can. This is why I it's just it's it's a beautiful elegant concept and I've always found this so fascinating because it accounts for like the the stuff that we we've talked about before

like how how simple these designs seem to be and how like they're just so clean and there's no and think of this. Oh, go ahead.

No, no, it's just a different paradigm. It's operating on a different we're we're trying to like break this down mechanically, but this we're we're not starting from the same place.

No. And I think that's why you know you hear a whole spectrum of of of takes on the rumors people hear about how much progress reverse engineering has made. Some people say we've hardly made any progress and I I

and others say we're flying them around ourselves. If we are, I think we're using consciousness to do it. I think that um I haven't used this word yet, but that's what we saw. This is what we saw in the those video clips is um

macrocsychokinesis where your consciousness is is altering the very nature and behavior of physical objects. I think that um people who are trying to um you know the uh a popular explanation among engineers and such is that warp drive alubier warp drive where

you're actually bending spaceime itself. If you were to do that, it would take some I' I've read these crazy estimates like as as much energy in the moon to to bend spaceime and it would whatever level of energy it would

take this would create all kinds of heat. It would just be like a burning sun. Um there are however means methods of sort of um mitigating that that heat. You can have different shells and different um like a

absor uh what do you call thermal absorption. Sure. Yeah. And yeah, but those would only further um distort the the uh the appearance of these ships in our atmosphere. Instead, many of them in the daytime especially are just easily seen objects right up

there. There's no distortion whatsoever. If this were they were inside a bubble, a space-time completely different space-time um frame of reference, we wouldn't be able to see them. I mean, the bogus sphere filmed from two different directions is a very clear

sphere. And then when it when it came to Earth, it was the same thing as it was in the in the sky. It wasn't in a different reality, you know, a spatial spatiotemple temporal reality. How do you do you think this

ties into psychedelic experiences that people have reported? Have you done any research into that?

I really haven't gone down that road at all. I'm scared to try them myself and I believe that they open doorways and um you know they're recent a recent study by a guy named Morris Free Free Freeman or Freedman I

forget which found that when you suppress a certain um right temporal lobe a certain place in the right temporal lobe you are more able at a higher um success rate to affect um a random event generator like numbers.

And so it's a suppressing of the filter of the of the brain that allows the psychic ability to come out. Which makes sense because consciousness is after all uh it manifests for us through our through the mediation of our brain. And

when you take psychedelics, it has been found surprisingly that instead of lighting up the whole brain, it actually suppresses a lot of the brain. Um, and that seems to allow for more of a broader um bandwidth of of um

spiritual experience to come through which dovetales nicely into I think it was Eban Alexander the was he the neur neurosurgeon who had the near-death He was he was brain dead for a period of days in a coma. I don't I don't know if

he was brain dead. Maybe he was well he had no no brain activity. I remember was the way he kind of phrased it. He was like we had no no but he was having this rich in uh completely

immersive experience that he documents in his book. Yeah. And uh very detailed and lots of other interesting beings that he comes into into contact with. And I uh in my own personal experience with psychedelics, particularly with uh with Iawaska, found

that uh once it takes effect, the the felt experience for me was was very much like watching the physical room that I was in evaporate into steam or vapor.

And then I found myself in this other space that was very much I I was localized in the space. I still had the same like, you know, theirness, but yet there was this other realm and and you could see things and and interact with

stuff. And I I I just wonder if what we're talking about here and the nested field theory as you as you put it, if what um indigenous cultures and the the medicine people of those cultures are are interacting with, if they if they

have figured out a technology in in a sense of affecting their consciousness so that they can traverse into that space and bring back usable information and and how far back that might go. Have you do you give that any thought at all?

Well, it just makes sense. I mean, it's right here. It's not you they're not going somewhere else. There's a there's basically an infinite amount of possibility potential within within every square inch of space. Um, and so they're just readjusting their their um

receiver that if the brain is a receiver, you just turn the dial and you you access different um a different range of um it all comes down to frequency. You know, Tesla said you want to understand the universe, think in

terms of energy, frequency, and vibration. And Einstein said much the same and many many others. But um you know, it's that's all there is. And the metaphor of a radio isn't bad. You're tuning you're tuning to a different

frequency and you're you're experiencing um not just subjective distortions from a altered state of consciousness but objectively real entities that usually are not um are not at our same level.

You know that's pretty simple pretty simple. Do you do you think that this is at the heart of some of the UFO secrecy that this has been worked out by scientists and some of these programs and and they understand?

I mean at the very same time as we were trying and and the Russians and the Chinese were trying to um understand how to reverse engineer this there arose a very robust and very dark program of recruiting children.

The Chinese did it first and then we found out about it and we started doing it in the 70s and there was a program before the gate program but then it turned into the gate program and you know Julia Mossbridge just talked about

this at length with uh with Jesse Michaels. She was she was part of this and so were thousands of other kids given um psychoactive uh liquids to drink and and also traumatized because the dissociation that comes out of

trauma can also unlock um psychic potential and and I think that they were this was this was handinand glove with the effort to understand how to deal with UAP. I don't think there's other reasons. I mean it wasn't for remote

viewing the Soviets because they wouldn't have to use children. And I think they were trying to create a a cohort of of psychics that they could and many of them talked about having then been u inducted into UAP secret programs. Above black talks

about that. That book where the guy was first was taught how to modulate a uh a um sine wave on a computer screen. Once he could do that, he started communicating at a distance with a supposed alien. Um, and in the

alien interview um, video, which increasingly is coming to seem authentic, amazing as that is, Richard Dolan has signed on to it.

Really? Yes. Richard Dolan has signed on. I know. It's shock it's shocking. I can I can I'll link you later to where he does that where he he says it's most likely true.

Uh, are we talking about the one where you can see the little heart monitor thing reflected in the glass? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I know which one you're talking I mean it's it's it's so breaks your brain to think that that's the actual alien but victory review I think they call it.

Yeah. Yes. Exactly. But but apparently there's a whole varated history of our our having these specimens and we can't talk to them but through the mind which is exactly how abduct say they talk to them. And um so

this this one video happens to be just the tip of the iceberg of all these sessions that have been happening with these entrapped aliens. Now this gets back to well why don't they just dissolve back into the um low density that they they

uh hearken from. I think that there's a I think that they it doesn't happen automatically. I think that they they have to execute this shift conscious through consciousness and I think once once the um the vessel is damaged I

don't think they can do it as much. I don't know every answer but if a if a UAP for instance crashes or is brought down it just becomes a husk and just like when we die we're a husk and a cautionist has fled back. I

think I think that the the uh alien creatures too who are dead their conscious bled back just like ours please when we die but the ones that are still alive are only um alive in a kind of a denatured sense. I think much of

their their their consciousness is not as fully imbued into this um body as it as it was when they first manifested. I think it becomes drained of consciousness and they're just kind of um in a autopilot or or just a

diminished state. And I think there's a a a point at which there's a sort of a density lock or something, whatever you would call it, where you can no longer just dissolve where they're they're bound to that physical.

Yeah. Somehow they've gotten um they've gotten um embedded in this level of vibration. This is a weak point of my theory because I don't have this worked out. Uh I just call it a density lock because evidently that's what happens.

Um but I don't know the mechanics of that. Um for sure. Do do you accept the possibility that it could be a yes and situation where it's like you yes we have this this consciousness differential and there's there there are these discarnate beings

that are able to traverse that range. But then could there also be just other physical beings that are on this plane that are actually really very much coming here from somewhere else in a physical craft in much the same way we

might imagine it. I I I just think about the the vast spectrum of of reports from people who have had encounters and it seems like there are so there's so much variety and some of them are very very

real physical craft where they describe you know I think about Preston Dennett does great work on this where he you know he collects these accounts of uh encounters where people have gone on board craft and they say look there

there are people there that look human they're wearing clothes they have a design on the you know there's like an emblem Sometimes there are adornments.

You'll hear about uh you know particularly with the mantids. Sometimes they wear a cloak or a cape or they'll be described as having some piece of a jewelry or uh well there's no doubt there's no doubt they're physical when they're physical.

The question is are do they stay physical like we do for 80 years. I think that the fact that people see them disappearing and that that um UAP disappear as well, it to me it testifies to the fact that

they're not physical in a in a permanent or in a um you know longlasting sense uh like rocks are and trees. I think that um we don't you don't hear described um creatures that seem to be true aliens

with a whole different body plan that we can't understand. Even the jellyfish ones, jellyfish are an ancient creature, more ancient than reptiles and bugs. So I think perhaps the jellyfish UAP took took that plan from way way in the

beginning of time and we see them flying around in terms of so if if if you wanted to propose or invoke um a class of these things that are just physical and not this consciousness woowoo that I'm talking about that I don't think is

woowoo in the porative sense then you would have it would have to um obey the um thermodynamic kind of laws that we have. So when when there are UAP that not only do they not release heat as exhaust for propulsion

so if they're actual uh well all right not only do they not release heat but they're sometimes ice cold in in the uh documentary A Tear in the Sky Dave Mason has his thermals and he says well that one is it's 80 degrees

below zero that that object up there. Um and I think this relates to the one aspect of the um Oz Oz factor that I didn't mention is the temperature drops because again when there's the um manifestation of consciousness it sucks

energy from the ambient air. So not only is the electromagnetic energy sucked but so is thermal energy and and so it creates a pocket of cold rather than heat that would be emitted by a true um warp drive

situation. And and and that's what people who report poltergeist activity commonly describe, right? A temperature drop in accordance with the activity.

Exactly. And and when when tables lift, it's it's often um people get cold because consciousness is is um spiking its its default ratio. it take up more space and therefore it's creating um a little bit of um competition and

friction with with the um with the uh uh ordinary atmosphere. The guy whatever I don't want to get off track. Um so um Kevin canuth says that in the situation of the tic tac one of them went from 80,000 ft down to 50 feet

in less than a second. And if this were obeying the thermodynamics that we understand of of um acceptably physical just physical objects, it would have it would have dumped he says as as much energy as it takes to light the eastern

seabboard for a month. Instead, it was neutral. It had no no heat signature whatsoever. And so that to me puts it in the range of psychokinesis rather than um anything that obeys any of the um propulsion and exhaust and lift

laws of physics that we understand. When there's a table that lifts up, there's no exhaust. There's no technology involved. It's anti-gravity without technology. And I think that these crafts that are found and if the reports are true and they have no

engines and they're very sparse inside and they're there seem to be molded from one piece. I think uh that gives us a a um a clue as to how they're not assembled like anything on the plans that we understand. And they must they

we must look for a whole different paradigm. And I'm just operating one. Yeah. It's like a diving bell from a higher dimension that that that can descend down and they can they're contained in this. I wonder, you know,

there's the there's the consciousness aspect of this, but then there's also like the ballistics aspects of of some of the crash retrieval descriptions that we've heard where these things get shot down and then recovered by, you know, they

said literally will shoot them out of the sky and then a SEAL team will go in with a mic microwave pulse.

Yeah. I think that's because they're it's because they're when they when they are um um densifying, for lack of a better word, when they're be manifesting or materializing from their native state, their default state of of low density invisibility,

um they become vulnerable. I think that's, you know, people say, well, how could they fly across the galaxy and then crash in the desert? Well, it's because they don't fly across the galaxy. If they did, they wouldn't be

crashing in the desert. Um I think that they're vulnerable one that that's why they don't hang around very long.

they're they're they're uh exposed um in into jeopardy and um increasingly as we have these weapons and these programs, you know, that Representative Erles talks recently on X about how there was this event where a whole bunch of representatives of the

FBI and the CIA and the DNI um put together the cir the um conditions that that had been worked out that often lures them in. And sure enough, one came. One showed up. One showed up. And this is according to Berles, this is the

most soughtafter briefing uh on Capitol Hill right now is that to tell the story and show the show the evidence that one came came. And part of the um part of the ingredient of that is is is psychic.

you know, not only do I think that they are able to defy gravity by by um through consciousness, through psychokinesis, but but they're piloted and they navigate and they maneuver through consciousness. Um, and when a when another conscious agent

manages to lock on to that same frequency, if they're very gifted like these psionics are, they can actually um blindside and displace whatever um consciousness was was piloting them. You know, they talk and very rarely, but it can be done. And they talk about um

hijacking the these things. The uh Skywatcher team before it went Yeah. before went states evidence, they talk about doing that. You're like, "What the How could that possibly be the case?

It because of it's because of information and it's because of the power of information that can change the um the uh instructions whereby that thing is flying.

It it makes so much sense. It to me it's it's one of the most um it it's it's just the most comfortable concept for me. I I still think there's a there's a you know my sense is that

there is stuff on the physical plane that is moving from place to place in the same way that we do. We're not the only people that occupy the physical plane. In other words, the only intelligence.

Well, Sasquatch are are flesh and blood, right? But I'm saying in the more permanent sense like like you could get in a craft and go there and if you got off you would recognize something like a society and a civiliz you know we would

have and I guess that's really at the heart of my fascination with the whole topic is like is it possible for us to go to where they are and if we could go there what would we see what would we

experience would we would we notice anything that is like a cultural touch point that we would recognize like a sense of humor that you could share Is there a commonality? Um, and I I wonder how much of this is is really at at the

core of how uh indigestible some of this is. It's like, yeah, that's the word for it.

If you if you if if this were true, right, and you could show it and you could definitively demonstrate it, then you have you have a doorway now to another layer or all of these other layers of reality, and it's packed with

other things. Who's in charge of that doorway? Are we all allowed to just go through it and talk to whatever? Does do you res uh do you restrict that to nation states? How do you establish a relationship with a intelligence from a

higher plane? I don't think I don't think it's always possible to do that when we're embodied.

Yeah. I think just like we can't go hang out with um you know with our dead relatives you know unless you know people who can travel out of body claim that they can sometimes visit their their um dear

departed but I don't think that that's in the cards when we're embodied. I think that I think that the alien quote unquote alien consciousness exists at in a certain bandwidth. And I think my my proposal in the book Homegrown Monsters

is that they can't transcend up to the same high vibration that we do when we die. I think that's why they are at us all the time. And I think that's why they're taking trying to hybridize and make make people because they're trying

to make themselves able to do what we do because they're not they don't experience a natural birth and a natural death something in that. And Nigel Kerner talks about this. They they haven't mastered the quote the trick of

being born. And since they can't do that and they don't have a a the same kind of natural history that we do for some reason, and this is remains obscure, they can't transcend at death into what you could call heaven or closer to

source than we can. I think that's why they're trying to merge with us and that's why they like they're caught up in some kind of eddy off to the side like they're kind of Exactly. I think they're in this they're

I call it the eternal bandwidth trapped and I think it's been the case since the very beginning. I think that's why they're boomeranging back and forth all the time between invisibility and visibility and why they're trying to um

I think they think that the soul you know Lazar says that the we're containers of souls. But I think that I think possibly and this is a very pretent pre pretentious thing to say, but I think possibly they are making a

category error and thinking that the soul is a thing, a commodity that they can get and that'll that'll be a a um a a um conveyance to the highest realm. Um but they've been wrong about that. I think they're like sis pushing the

boulder up the up the hill all these years and they never get there. But it's a constant constant effort and um so I go into different reasons why I think that's the case. Uh I think that's it would be too much to unpack that right

now. There's a lot more that I could get into. Um but uh we've we've exhausted our listeners if we haven't exhausted ourselves.

Well, I think it's safe to say we're going to have to have you back to pick this up again. And I I would really love to get some audience questions from uh the viewers after this airs. and then

circle back with you to see what what they have to say about this anytime. Anytime.

But uh what what where would you point people to who want to learn more about this and the nested field theory and your work?

Um my website is the nearnessofw.net. My YouTube channel is impossible visits. Impossible visits. And the book is the anatomy of thin air where I try to um lay out as clearly as possible this um slippery theory that of

mine. It's less slippery than you think. I think you've laid it out quite well.

Bless you for saying that. I I appreciate that. It's tough. It's tough. And I'm going to include in the show notes also the link to uh the excellent new thinking aloud interview which I think is a is a nice bookend to this

and expands on this. All right Chris I that's we we could launch into any number of other other tributaries but we have to force ourselves to stop.

Let's let's wrap it there. This was a great on-ramp for people I think to start understanding a little bit more about uh the the perspective that you're bringing to this conversation and I think that as we go forward and learn

more about what's going on this is going to become more more important because I I I get the sense that you are knocking on the door of the real truth behind what is happening. Well, I I think in my in my

best moments, I think I'm directionally on the right track. If not, the details remain to be sketched in further and further and further by others, me and others. If this is directionally uh directionally fruitful, you know, but it

is it just like like all of us, we just want to contribute to the conversation.

And that's why I I really appreciate you for giving me this opportunity, this this platform. I've admired your work. I don't want to make you embarrassed, but I I I think you're one of the most thoughtful, cerebral, reflective commentators on the scene.

Um, we're not as smart as Matthew Pines, but you know, nobody is. Who is is Matt Pines? What can you do?

Christopher, thank you so much for taking the time to just sit down and walk me through this. Let's definitely do it again. I'll get this one put together. We'll get it on the air, and then once I get some audience feedback,

we'll circle back and see where we can go next. But this was outstanding. I loved it, too. I I appreciate it.

Thank you.