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Totally Glocally | Artistic Freedom in Conflictual Times | Literaturhaus Stuttgart (english)

Panel discussion at Literaturhaus Stuttgart by IFA on artistic freedom in times of conflict, with Julian Nida-Rümelin, Sarah Wyatt and Lena Gorelik debating censorship, polarization and limits of expr

Key Takeaways

  • Artistic freedom is a precondition for both creativity and democracy and must be defended even when contested
  • Polarization and fear of backlash are producing self-censorship among artists and cultural workers
  • Legal restrictions in Europe are often justified by security or insult concerns but can be misused against expression
  • Cultural institutions should combine international and local perspectives and actively foster bold, uncomfortable discourse

What the video covers

  • Event 'Totally Globally: Artistic Freedom in Times of Conflict' organized by IFA (Institut für Auslandsbeziehungen) and Literaturhaus Stuttgart
  • Three guests: Julian Nida-Rümelin (former German culture commissioner, author of 'Cancel Culture'), Sarah Wyatt (former PEN International freedom of expression program lead, UNESCO/Council of Europe adviser), and Lena Gorelik (writer, anthology on Germany after October 7th)
  • IFA Secretary General introduces the Martin Roth Initiative-style protection programs for threatened artists and UNESCO's definition of artistic freedom
  • Artistic freedom is framed as protected under international, European and German Basic Law and as the basis of creativity and democracy
  • Debate covers self-censorship, emotional polarization, and whether artistic freedom is really under threat in Germany
  • Discussion of legal restrictions in Europe (anti-terrorism, religious insult, obscenity laws) and their misuse against expression
  • Concerns about social media algorithms and how they shape which opinions can be voiced
  • Panelists argue that freedom must be defended even when its uses are disagreeable, and that dialogue across differing views is essential
  • Event recorded and published on IFA's YouTube channel; interpretation provided between German and English

Chapters

  1. 00:00Welcome and event introduction
  2. 05:30Panelist introductions
  3. 11:20IFA Secretary General on artistic freedom and protection programs
  4. 22:00Housekeeping and opening of the panel
  5. 28:20Freedom of expression vs. political freedom in debate
  6. 38:00Legal restrictions and reports on European developments
  7. 50:00Self-censorship, social media and polarization
  8. 70:00Closing reflections on art, democracy and the way forward

Answers

Questions about this video

Who are the guests in this panel discussion?

The panel features Julian Nida-Rümelin, former German federal government commissioner for culture and media; Sarah Wyatt, former head of PEN International's freedom of expression program; and Lena Gorelik, a writer who organized the Stuttgart literature festival. The evening was moderated with an introduction by Andreas Platthaus.

What is the main topic of the discussion?

The discussion centers on artistic freedom in times of conflict, including censorship, self-censorship, polarization and where the limits of freedom of expression lie, both in authoritarian states and in liberal democracies.

Why did IFA organize this event?

IFA frames the event as part of its 'Totally Globally' series exploring the interplay between global and local perspectives, and as a way to examine whether Germany truly promotes artistic freedom amid growing doubts abroad, partly motivated by a study by Sarah Wyatt on the topic.

Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

00:05
Speaker A
welcome to the literature house totally globally artistic freedom in times of conflict that's the title of tonight's event organized by E IFA and the literature house we have invited three guests to have a conversation tonight Julian nid Rin former German federal
00:23
Speaker A
government commissioner for culture and media author and visiting professor at many universities last year he published his contribution cancel culture the end of Enlightenment about the defense of humanism and Enlightenment against intolerance agitation and the refusal to discourse to have a discourse the
00:41
Speaker A
practice of silencing unpopular opinions is very old and can already be observed in Antiquity says n Rin Sarah Wyatt headed the freedom of expression program at pen International for many years advised organizations such as UNESCO and the Council of Europe and produced among
00:59
Speaker A
other things a report report on developments and restrictions on freedom of expression and creativity in Europe as well as a report on the role of international institutions and funding agencies in protecting art Freedom Lena gorik a writer who has received many
01:11
Speaker A
awards created the first stutgart literature Festival last year under the title writing while the world happens and to ask how we can resist the current Temptations um in terms of to think in terms of friends and enemies she
01:27
Speaker A
recently published a volume speaking nevertheless an anthology of text about the situation in Germany after October 7th so what opinions contradictions and conflicts must the society endure where are the limits of freedom of expression and artistic Freedom not only with regard to
01:45
Speaker A
authoritarian States but also to Liberal democracies what efforts can we make for the benefit of ambiguity and dispute the discussions among about this topic are becoming increasingly emotional and polarized the geopolitical challenges are also being felt in the cultural
01:59
Speaker A
sector the evening's guests will be introduced by Andreas platous head of literature at the frankfor auor of numerous books and one of the leading experts on comics and illustration in 2015 after Shak Abdul he wrote among other things the introduction to the
02:20
Speaker A
volume illustrators defend freedom of expression the evening is a cooperation between eepa Institute for for relations and literature house stutgart in the events series totally globally in this series The IFA asks questions about the interaction between the global and the local and draws
02:38
Speaker A
attention to examples of cooporation thank you so much for the co collaboration all three guests have been asked to prepare a five minute impulse that will be in the introduction to the subsequent discussion in an interview Julia Nida
02:53
Speaker A
Rin said I enjoy discussing on panels with all kinds of people with different views including those who have a diametrically opposed view to my own we don't yet know how the room will be filled this evening but I would like
03:07
Speaker A
to thank everyone for accepting the invitation to join us this evening I am very much looking forward to the discussions that lie ahead L GIC book started with text messages how are you I'm thinking of you and I'm convinced
03:24
Speaker A
that differing political positions must not defeat the matter as a whole this volume has written with the desire for us to talk to one another again or learn once again to do so the Preamble reads thank you very
03:38
Speaker A
much now I am pleased to ask G CH Secretary General of the IFA to say a few words when I took a look at the text written by my colleagues for tonight I realized that you were referring to courage a lot we need to be
04:17
Speaker A
bold to have certain discussions we need to endure certain discussions we would like to thank the literature house for being so bold as to organize this event we can learn from Bold people at the IFA and we can speak a lot about
04:34
Speaker A
bold people long before the freedom of expression became a topic in Germany we have seen them we have seen governments and societies drawing limitations artists being afraid of persuasion be because they critically questions things with their art and they
04:59
Speaker A
are no longer allowed to do so we have seen that we need to protect these people and this was the reason to create the Martin R Foundation a program that protects artists who are no longer protected in their home countries we offer uh
05:18
Speaker A
protected visits for these artists and the demand for this protection has increased drastically since we founded this um organization the right of artist to freely Express them themselves in times of geopolitical tension and the withdrawal of democratic values is more threatened than ever
05:42
Speaker A
before Arts freedom is the basis of creativity and cultural production is the basis of democracy it is protected by International European and national law it is Ed in the German basic law on an equal footing with the freedom of
06:01
Speaker A
science and research and teaching following the definition of the UNESCO artistic freedom is the freedom to imagine something to create something and to disseminate it artistic Freedom must be free from the state censorship political intervention or pressure from
06:23
Speaker A
non-state actors it encompasses the right of all citizen to access artistic values and it is essential to the well-being of a society we at the EA see it as one of our Central tasks to protect artistic Freedom especially when it is threatened
06:44
Speaker A
and to allow for debate these debates are very emotional and polarized and what we meet ever more often abroad is a doubt that artistic freedom in Germany is still existing we want to include artistic freedom in the discourse around human
07:08
Speaker A
rights so we um we launched a study by with oov and Sarah W who published it it's available in the back on the table and this has been one of the reasons why we cooperated with the literature house to
07:27
Speaker A
have this series totally globally where we're looking at the the interdependency of uh the global and the local we and this allows us to have a look from the outside on our in German debate and the exchange of our stutgart
07:45
Speaker A
audience is also important to us we are a cultural mediator and we are a local cultural institution which is why we want to combine International points of view with local points of view and we question our elves what do cultural
08:02
Speaker A
institutions have to do to to make space for this bold discourse how can we allow for this in the public what do we have to endure how can we have this bold and courageous discourse and still protect people from discriminations where are
08:25
Speaker A
the limits to this and do we really promote artistic freedom these are questions that we have to look at in our everyday work and if you allow me one um comment of event that takes place tomorrow IFA and M Brena on the topic of
08:48
Speaker A
Israel tomorrow you can register for this event online on um ea. de finally I would like to seee this opportunity to thank the literat House Stephanie stman for the Great cooporation and the courage to have this discourse I would
09:08
Speaker A
like to thank the colleagues from EA from the dialogue and research team Christina Clementine W for their excellent organization of this event and with that I wish you all the courage necessary to have this discussion and a lot of empathy
09:32
Speaker A
this is what I wish you all for tonight's discussion thank you very much Mrs and I'd I'd like to extend a warm welcome to you welcome to the panel discussion you heard about what is planned however I'd like to start off
09:55
Speaker A
with two housekeeper remarks now most of the language you're going to hear here is German but Sarah will talk in English so she will get an interpretation of the German spoken speeches and so on and if you don't want
10:12
Speaker A
to work so hard trying to understand the English if you think it's a bit late at night and you feel a bit tired if you meant to make life easier for yourselves there are headsets for you provided at
10:21
Speaker A
the back so that you can follow the uh English in German all this German stuff which will be talked about more this event is going to be recorded it's going to be published on the YouTube channel of epha now I
10:42
Speaker A
suspect not that not everyone has been asked whether they would agree and give their consent to this that is why I'm going to ask you now now should there be somebody in the audience so who do not want to see their face or their person
10:57
Speaker A
even from the career to be recorded Now's the Time to you know uh leave and perhaps you'll even get your money back because it should have been told beforehand of course but I don't really believe that it takes
11:12
Speaker A
such a lot of courage to really have the discussion we're going to have now of course mind you it's up to you too we don't feel too um courageous yet or too brave because you seem to be extremely
11:22
Speaker A
peaceful here in the audience nevertheless if after the input statements you wish to join in our discussion we will give you a sign early if we don't really want to limit public discussion until the very end of this
11:35
Speaker A
event don't feel obliged however to Jo in but of course it might be fascinating to talk to uh interesting panelists uh today so use this opportunity and because this is going to be recorded microphones are going to be handed around the room so
11:52
Speaker A
before you start talking wait until you've got the microphone otherwise you will have under mind of course the whole idea of recording this event now the topic the subject today is associated with artistic Freedom artistic freedom in times of conflict
12:14
Speaker A
now I do wonder why people and in German there's a difference it says the freedom of art compared to Artistic Freedom so K the freedom of the Arts is there's legal um definition for this it does not mention
12:33
Speaker A
artistic freedom however so I found it interesting that you've opted for this term artistic freedom I don't think he did this deliberately it was a deliberate choice but it shows us that we are confronted with terminology that can be pretty complicated depending on
12:50
Speaker A
what our notion of freedom is but I believe we're going to hear interesting inputs from all three guests who are here today so the way we're going to do it is like this we're going to here three input
13:01
Speaker A
statements and Rin is going to start Sara white is going to continue and Lina gorik is going to finish off this part and then we're going to briefly have a discussion about these three input statements and check out how compatible
13:18
Speaker A
we are and whether perhaps there's a need to discuss things first on the panel itself and then you will have an opportunity to chime in as I said you don't need to we have efficient of course things to talk about up here but
13:32
Speaker A
you can do and we would be pleased if you got so very much engaged here and as you heard the quote by nin it's interesting of course to discuss things with people who are of a different opinions so make
13:47
Speaker A
sure you speak freely openly and I'm really looking forward to the input statements of my guests on the panel I accept the challenge EA and literature house invited a philosopher and cultural politician but that is 22 years ago and
14:11
Speaker A
I was only a politician for 5 years and I am not involved in the current discussions I am just an observer like you I read the papers and um I think about these discussions so I thought it might be a good idea to
14:33
Speaker A
focus on the philosophical part um of this debate so my first comment so far everything's fine I won't give you any reasons we are living in times that are characterized by liberalism um um and a legal order that
14:58
Speaker A
is characterized by liberalism the liberal parties tend to be very small and that proves this because people think that they do not have to vote for these paries any longer because it's a given at the same time there has been one dispute right from
15:21
Speaker A
the beginning John Stuart Mill one of the great minds of liberalism but also of British was convinced that freedom is Justified because it contributes to the general well-being we provide freedom and then we can expect a society to develop
15:43
Speaker A
positively he was an optimist a reformist one of the few feminists among the classicist of philosophy Plato maybe was the first and that's wrong one of the smartest Minds was wrong and this is proven since 1970 Matias hen Matias hen an Indian
16:06
Speaker A
brilliant Economist and mathematician he held two professorships at the Harvard University for philosophy and economy and he proved that this is not true the right to freedom and the recognition of certain areas of decision making namely what a person studies whom
16:35
Speaker A
they marry what Association they join Etc might get in conflict with the idea of optimizing preferences and even if we are all agreed it might at the same time be in conflict with individual rights that's a liberal Paradox you can google
17:06
Speaker A
google it if you want further details and this makes it very clear what the message that I have for you today there are many reasons political reasons for Arts Freedom or artistic freedom for arguments it is better to to know about
17:28
Speaker A
different positions that brings us forward Arts is has more facets if it considers different ideologies and political backgrounds and so forth but art freedom and political Freedom cannot justify this we must commit to the intrinsic value of Freedom the it cannot be justified in
17:59
Speaker A
instument instrumentally as many people still think and now it's getting interesting now many people like to say why should I give space to someone whose opinion I do not share or even consider dangerous if I have the task if I have the option
18:20
Speaker A
to prevent this someone from taking part in a panel it might be on social media an exhibition if I have the opportunity to prevent this by organizing protests for example in advance and um make the organizers withdraw the
18:40
Speaker A
invitation or not even making an invitation why shouldn't I do that I am glad if such an opinion is not voiced that is exactly the risk of instrumentalizing individual rights in the long run leads to the destruction of these rights and we are
19:06
Speaker A
currently in a process that is multifaceted in different countries with different parties and different motives um that questions this intrinsic value of Arts Freedom this is a cultural change that is also taking place here there has been a survey among um scientists who
19:33
Speaker A
considers this Freedom at risk and many said well it's not that bad but it is a fact that something has changed and this also applies to Artistic practice in Germany and finally as I'm only allowed to speak five minutes there are at least two
19:54
Speaker A
dimensions of Freedom that we must differ iate there is this smart study by Kristoff Miller that Claudia R commissioned it's really worth reading I agree with most of it it's a very he's a very smart legal person but the core is
20:19
Speaker A
about ethos and culture without violating UIC Norms you can destroy autistic freedom in Germany in Germany we can discuss that later if there is no stance of ethos there are we have the tools to obstruct these freedoms and
20:50
Speaker A
to um destroy the existence of these freedoms which is why I would like to refer to two aspects one is the freedom of the individual and the other is the freedom of the institution in which Arts takes Arts take place just like science and
21:13
Speaker A
that is a very delicate matter I for one am of the opinion now I'm speaking as the cultural politician the practice of Germany Austria and Switzerland and also France and other countries like Great Britain there is a state funding of
21:37
Speaker A
theaters and that is not a threat to the Arts freedom but a condition for their freedom because then it can Implement many things that it wants to implement which wouldn't otherwise be possible because it is not dependent on the market so
21:59
Speaker A
this institutionalization is a form of freedom of course it is not if the city councilor decides on the program there is one specific case for example like that in Germany which I find very problematic indeed so institutional freedom
22:20
Speaker A
is also a result of noninterference if those who could interfere do not interfere and accordingly reduce themselves to a minimal form of cultural responsibility if the institutions are free to shape the Arts according to their opinion but the
22:52
Speaker A
artists still can pursue their artistic purpose but they the requirements are set by the curators or others in that case the institutional form of artistic Freedom would still be under threat so there are two Dimensions to that and I think we should consider both
23:19
Speaker A
thank you so much your it's your turn Sarah well as introduced um I'm a long-standing expert on what we call Freedom of artistic expression rather than freedom of the Arts making it you know specific to like media freedom and otherwise yeah um and
23:46
Speaker A
I've been monitoring uh the state of artistic Freedom around the world most recently uh working for the oso based Arts Freedom monitor freeuse where we publicize abuses across the world that attacks on artists imprisonment censorship and even sadly
24:03
Speaker A
murders uh where these attacks occur um will be of little surprise to you because they follow the human rights uh in in many of of the worst abusers countries like Iran China Cuba and closer to home to toi um but my
24:20
Speaker A
particular interest in recent Studies have focused on Arts freedom in Europe I've been working with the Council of Europe and I've written two reports one published last year and one soon to be published uh these reports identified uh
24:35
Speaker A
developments across Europe including the existence of laws that are designed specifically or are misused to suppress freedom of expression and creativities and these tend to be around issues such as anti-terrorism religious insult obscenity insult to the States but in these reports they don't
24:54
Speaker A
just focus on the bad guys I would't name them but I was the opportunity to explore what it is that hinders creativity of artists in all European countries Democratic and less so and for my studies I had the opportunity to meet
25:09
Speaker A
in person with artists from across Europe and from Norway Belgium Hungary turkey everybody um some did speak of the impact of laws that overtly suppress free speech and are manipulated uh in a way to suppress it like anti-terror laws
25:28
Speaker A
you know I'm I'm quite keen on anti-terror laws but when they're being used to uh applied against legitimate Expressions um uh for example the struggles for minority rights um it becomes questionable you've got insult to religion laws uh which are used to
25:47
Speaker A
shut down criticism of religions and religious leaders we have obscenity laws which are used against LGBT and against women maybe talking about abortion and sexual abuse um insult laws that shut down criticism of uh leaders State institutions and even flags and turning
26:07
Speaker A
a satirist into a traitor and so terms that we think we understand are constantly being twisted and reinterpreted and unrecognizable Ways by by governments and by others but what is striking is the extent of self-censorship across Europe self-censorship is difficult to to
26:26
Speaker A
measure but you certainly feel it if what I Define in my reports as under the radar censorship we know pretty much how many uh artists are in prison or have been attacked how many pieces of work have been pulled off walls but we don't
26:42
Speaker A
what we don't know so much is the self-censorship so overshadowing that is uh overshadowing us all is a populist media that vilifies artist work it influence of public perception threatens creates fake news um around the typical issues uh around
27:01
Speaker A
gender LGBT M minorities and immigration and you're right they go both ways it's not just governments it's also others um this negative publicity from wherever it's coming from can stop artists from not just producing work but being given a performance space a
27:18
Speaker A
theater may not want to to to have you on their theater um and their work is thrown is withdrawn threat of violence and this is not exclusive so but particularly so in a sector where making a living is precarious at the best of
27:33
Speaker A
times so it might seem wiser to stay away from certain topics that might bring you trouble from wherever it comes from however deeply you may care about it then you've got governments as mentioned attempting to influence or take control of cultural sectors uh
27:50
Speaker A
cultural institutions across Europe again Works being excluded exhibition shut down and funding removed and this is also the case private funders are also influenced by these factors um and this one of the issues that's explored in the in eiel report
28:07
Speaker A
which would referred to there and we also talk about the uh local funding and the need for arms length and how arms length can you really be those kind of questions will be in that report I'm sorry about this but uh until
28:21
Speaker A
recently Germany has stood out as one of the good guys uh at least when it come to freedom of expression but I imagine some of you here will have noticed that some of the issues I've mentioned above which are
28:32
Speaker A
happened uh elsewhere are happening here now okay we we've been you will know this but uh since October the 7th there's been an alarming rise in anti-Semitism anti- Muslim sentiments and for an artist German or otherwise to criticize Israel to denounce the
28:52
Speaker A
killings of the 44 uh 44,000 in Gaza to date to call for ceasefire and to denounce what is happening as an atrocity or a crime against humanity it to be labeled as anti-israel and anti-semitic I don't want to go into the details of this but
29:09
Speaker A
the fact that we just cannot even talk about it without fearing some kind of repercussion uh at free news we've been watching with a workers have had their Works removed from exhibition you'll know probably more than I do the withdrawal of a ward
29:26
Speaker A
blacklisting exclusion um I've heard a figure of around 180 artists um who have been penalized specifically in this way um but I think the number of those who are censoring themselves must be much larger and again it'll be
29:43
Speaker A
immeasurable um we've also seen artists who now I know of artists who are now saying I'm not going to come to Germany I'm not going to exhibit and of course we've had for instance the petition with thousands of artists um calling for a
29:58
Speaker A
cult ual boycott um the bundestag resolution calling for an ending of funding for anti-semitic organizations supporter of of boycott as a means to end anti-Semitism is is unlikely to succeed and it also adds to the fears that uh of
30:17
Speaker A
this is undermining the Constitution itself in the basic law Article 5 which um which uh protects um freedom of expression and specifically said they shall beo censorship so for decades I've been focusing on Turkey which is my country
30:35
Speaker A
of expertise and I've an criticized the misuse of anti-terror laws to shut down legitimate criticism of army abuses against the kurd for instance I'm watching with deepening alarm as foreign agent laws are used to penalize artists and others as traitors notably antiwar
30:52
Speaker A
artists in Russia so it's distressing to see Germany and otherwise Democratic country join the ANS of sensored of legitimate comment for now not imprisoning artists but through blacklisting and exclusion I'll stop there well I do hope that I'm not
31:26
Speaker A
repeating anything that's been said before before I do believe however that my viewpoint is a bit different it's that well at least you know from an artistic perspective I begin with thinking this is where artistic Freedom begins it begins now before the first
31:44
Speaker A
sentence is spoken even already When the Thought is formed in the mind when the first word is spoken knowing that it is me who decides that I'm going to write this text how am I going to begin it and
31:56
Speaker A
which punctuation mark I'm going to put the freedom to think the freedom to speak to ride even in public and publicly this is the artistic Freedom that allows me to write but I fear for it now and this fear is not just a word
32:16
Speaker A
it has come to roost and it grows fatter with the day-to-day news and events looking at electoral polls and knowing that one of these parties has been classified about the office for the protection of the Constitution as definitely right extremist and that it
32:33
Speaker A
could find itself sitting in the bundes tag as the second biggest political force in less than 90 days for example at the same time the berin Senate is axing the budget for Culture by 12% and similar cuts to culture alumi in other
32:45
Speaker A
cities too when a resolution has been adopted that was arguably worded to combat anti-Semitism but in naturual fact is setting anti-Semitism Against Racism and makes ideological screening a practic IC Choice when curators from art and literature institutions or theaters say
33:06
Speaker A
that they have to exert caution in how they think and make their plans as they do not want to give rise to controversy when artists are threatened and more and more security personnel and the police are required to protect cultural events
33:21
Speaker A
when art criticism is calling out their name in public which is why more and more artists prefer to stay mute when debates on all these subjects get so much out of hand that there is no dialogue to speak
33:36
Speaker A
of anymore because people get disinvited their appearance canceled or they get shouted down this in spite of the fact that this is what art in actual fact exalts at asking questions it is for a reason that authoritarian State and
33:53
Speaker A
systems as they establish themselves invariably curb artistic Freedom first of all even if you would love to think about them simply as heartless louts they know the power of art very well indeed that art can raise questions that it can
34:10
Speaker A
shake at the root of what they want people to believe in that art creates images dreams that it remembers gives warnings contradicts and emphasizes that it can shift the Limelight that it practices critique and that it has the effect of making us stop
34:30
Speaker A
and think that is why dictatorships relegate artists into stoes that is why they are hunted thrown into prison killed it is a long road before things get this far most often it is taken gradually it is sneaking up Upon Us by
34:49
Speaker A
choosing certain people for artistic leading precisions by Distributing public funds only to certain institutions or artists by curtailing Financial to support changing funding policies or by indirect censorship you can actually watch Freedom as it disappears slowly but surely
35:11
Speaker A
in authoritarian regimes we cultural workers and Society support this process if we adopt the self-a mechanisms that seek to impose a revisionist mindset on us makes us see everything is either good or evil in times when political and cultural
35:32
Speaker A
discourse is limited to dichotomies and either or appro are you for deputations or against for Israel or for Palestine for climate protection or against it we are LED too quickly to believe that we can see clearly Beyond any Shad for doubt who
35:53
Speaker A
our enemies sadly this is also true for discussions uh and the topics discussed within the world of Arts itself there is less and less room for deviations from the norm but also for differentiated deliberation slow moving analyses or
36:08
Speaker A
unanswered questions for yes but on the other hand also and no although soon or later it will disappear from sight when people no longer talk to each other because a dialogue is rejected when the wrong ones are sitting on the panel
36:22
Speaker A
because people prefer shouting to just talking because they are blamed blanket passion for not questioning accusations made or whether these are based on fact when artists no longer the place where you can watch criticize endure attension where different viewpoints and
36:41
Speaker A
perspectives come together where there is space for nuances then we will face each other like enemies like parties engaged in Warfare which will only help those who want to restrict the freedom of thought of speech artistic Freedom means being free to
37:03
Speaker A
decide nobody knows this better than us who are trying to create this art we here will decide on the sound as well as the nuances on form on content on colors of words on temp volume on where to put
37:20
Speaker A
the punctuation we use such panting marks in order to tell a story to ask questions or to show some thing to understand to question or to give testimony through the subjects we choose the content we provide with our art we are probing gaps
37:36
Speaker A
stumbling blocks the pain points of our time of our communities we are free to respond to what we observe happening around us in the world and we can also choose to ignore it in this case we're using our freedom
37:53
Speaker A
to decide against responding every day we decide FR fresh how are we going to make use of the privilege of our freedom that has become so endangered recently whether in public debates or in the artistic stances with harar we decide
38:09
Speaker A
how we want to deal with societal developments whether we accept its mechanisms whether we think we had better talk to somebody or refuse to talk with them whether cancelling might perhaps be an option whether we come up with assertions or ask questions whether
38:24
Speaker A
we listen and to whom or whether we just ride it out right out the Storm at the moment we are still free to make this decision do we want to defend artistic Freedom or not this is where artistic Freedom begins
38:39
Speaker A
now with a conversation like the one we're going to have now thank you of course it's not an IDE ideal prerequisite for a discussion that we are that we mostly agree on most of the topics well the basic concern that I've
39:12
Speaker A
heard in all three contributions is the loss of Freedom the loss of freedoms nin very clearly um talked about the philosophical perspective the loss in attitude because culture is what brings the society together so you don't need legislation
39:42
Speaker A
to get this process started it's all about the attitude as he said the stance that we seem to lack these days this is at least what I hear in all three country contributions now we are talking about the German
40:05
Speaker A
situation and it was fascinating to hear Sarah um speak about turkey and other states but she's an expert um in turkey and she sees developments similar developments in Germany Lina gorelik grew up in a Russian family and uh arrived in Germany as a child so she
40:30
Speaker A
knows how a repressive Society what a suppressive society feels like and Julia need rline talked about and worked with State philosophies so much so that I would like to get back to that what do you think what's the current situation
40:48
Speaker A
in Germany also compared to other countries Sarah Wyatt said we are already on the slippery slope is do you see that way and if so what can we do to act against this so um when it comes to
41:08
Speaker A
International comparison I think you should comment on this for personal reasons for biographical reasons I am linked to two countries in Europe my wife is French and the overwhelming part of my wife's family comes from Israel and Italy and also the USA because I was a
41:35
Speaker A
visiting professor in the US and maybe that was a misinterpretation or a misjudgment but I think compared to the USA Germany was in a good position I know we are not discussing scientific freedom but it is similar to
41:57
Speaker A
the freedom of artistic expression you really very beautifully summarize this the attitude the St now I I would like to mention a crazy example I um was quite familiar with York endorf he was also very active during that time and died at a very early age
42:23
Speaker A
if you know his work you'll know that he was a board member of the kpw and was invited to China often and he was very proud of that so he thought the cultural revolution in China was great with more
42:45
Speaker A
than 20 million deaths and then he had a phase where his art got worse where when he tried to include do these Contents I don't know for sure I haven't done the research but nobody ever would have guessed to not have an exhibition
43:11
Speaker A
with imor because of that and that that is nothing harmless the maest policy was was um was inhuman and nobody even suggested to cancel his exhibitions so I was really um surprised that when the Russian attack on Ukraine
43:43
Speaker A
happened alv was under attack G was under attack because he did not um distantiated himself from the Russian from Russian politics I don't know um you might know better does he put human lives at risk if he took a stance
44:07
Speaker A
here so he was he is a very impressive Maestro and not a politician and he so how does it occur to us to um to um to get rid of him as an intendant as an artistic director in Milano the
44:37
Speaker A
doeski lecture was stopped when the war started are we crazy what has doeski to do with it so something is changing and this leads to fear frasia for example this is is not part of artistic freedom but still it's an interesting
45:01
Speaker A
example Nancy Fraser was invited to come to cologne and then they canceled the invitation because she was too talking in a pro Palestinian way one of the most important philosophers of the USA is Uninvited because they find that she's
45:21
Speaker A
not allowed to to give this lecture um that might deal with opinions that the University of cologne doesn't share that's a new mcarthism that's the result and one last sentence maybe I wrote this book that was quoted earlier cancel culture is not good
45:51
Speaker A
because it comes from the right direction it is practiced by all the different Fields it it's not based on political um opinions it's about the attitude deplatforming is what it's about how can I um avoid certain opinions to
46:15
Speaker A
be voiced on certain platforms you quoted me earlier and then you left out one half sentence I said I want to discuss with everyone on all panels but there are limits I I like to talk to neo-nazis but I don't want the public to
46:36
Speaker A
be listening so that is a limit Miss gik would you like to um comment on Russia no no I would like to talk about Germany actually you've been asking for constructive behaviors you were asking about our concerns I think being constructive is
47:15
Speaker A
based on CL taking a close look at what is actually happening and um at occasions when certain freedoms are curbed like for example dooi the example you mentioned and um taking a look you mentioned McCarthy for example is being used a
47:45
Speaker A
lot I do not want to negate this but again I think it is part of on analysis of reduced emotions I think both of you mentioned this polarized debate emotions are part of this and we really need to take a close look at
48:10
Speaker A
what's happening and what is not happening people are Uninvited or invitations are cancelled that's a fact but I um am published the volume speaking nonetheless and I've been taking part in panels on Israel and Palestine for a year now and on all the panels this has
48:43
Speaker A
been repeated over and over again the number of dead civilians call for ceas fire and I'm still sitting on a panel and um making the flat assumption that saying this is impossible in Germany is not helpful I think we really need to
49:06
Speaker A
take a closer look at this because McCarthy's emotional shout that in Germany we are no longer able to speak out is wrong if the the right-wing parties follow certain policy like for example reduced funding so this this statement that you are no
49:39
Speaker A
longer allowed to speak out really is of benefit to those who would like to curb these freedoms you wanted to have a controversial debate so I think this tactical handling of phenomena like these is wrong I think it
49:59
Speaker A
is true that right-wing politicians like to say that you are no longer allowed to say and the answer is this is your doing because the afd oppresses opinions and arts and theat plays in the US DeSantis called um Florida the vog free
50:24
Speaker A
zone that is censorship that this cancelled culture so parents become agitated they make sure that no transgender persons and gay authors visit the schools to give lectures that is cancel culture and it doesn't matter to me for what reasons they do that and if the
50:49
Speaker A
right-wing politicians say you are no longer allowed to say what you think it's directed against the left-wing politicians that is a general pattern of political history what started in the left wi with for humanistic reasons is then accepted
51:12
Speaker A
by the right-wing politicians and taken to the extreme so you need to criticize the core of it many of those who up until recently said we are right topress opinions that are no longer up to date they are affected
51:32
Speaker A
now the BDS petition and so forth so the these people are now experiencing the danger of this so this type of Oppression of opinions of people having certain opinions on poopular opinions and in the worst case scenario might even destroy
51:58
Speaker A
life is independent from the motives and it's completely unacceptable comment on Turkey yes of course it's not quite as as um as as difficult here as it if it oh so be closely yeah that better yeah um I was saying
52:22
Speaker A
that uh the comparison with turkey isn't so much to do with the numbers but the way that uh issues and words are are twisted and uh and and used to suppress certain groups of people and this is something that you see right across
52:39
Speaker A
Europe you see it in Hungary you see um rewriting history you see it right across and of course yes we've also seen it in the UK to a certain extent and in and and in the um in the in the
52:52
Speaker A
US it's not for as I say it it's not for politician to tell us what we shouldn't shouldn't say there are concerns of course I'm not a complete Free Speech fundamentalist there are certain things that I believe should not be said I'm
53:07
Speaker A
not sure where I draw the line but I it's really for the courts to decide you have hate speech laws you have definitions of hate speech cases need to be discussed there but even in the courts there's a difference of opinions
53:21
Speaker A
you might get um the same case heard by different judges who will come to a different conclusion I mean I I understand there's been a number of cases in Germany uh of uh the uh BDS linked uh organizations having uh
53:39
Speaker A
their um venues not being allowed to to be at certain venues and they've gone to courts and the same courts have said have R in favor and another one has ruled against it's really really a very very tricky sort of uh situation and as
53:56
Speaker A
we've been saying it's for me it's about always discussing always debating the problem comes in the way that um speech in general is being instrumentalized by not just politicians but by other groups and then power powered by social media and uh then we
54:20
Speaker A
go into a whole other discussion about um the mediation of social media and its role it's having in this current crisis culture now we heard from n Rin that cancel culture is not a new phenomenon it's a new term but it's been
54:42
Speaker A
an anthropological constant now Sarah just said that social media of course was factor that accelerates a lot of these things it provides a new opportunities of excluding people but it's interesting but you compare this against the termism so that was a time when there
55:07
Speaker A
was no social media society as we know it today so this technological development does that play a role H because all of this can be orchestrated more easily he can trigger cancel culture even easier from a much more powerful basis as it
55:27
Speaker A
so does that play a role and if it does what would that mean for our future perhaps that means that we will have to control social media in a different way from today now I talked about us or
55:43
Speaker A
we because we the authors who wrote uh this piece and we stitched together hundreds of examples from different examples China Egypt and so on and in actual fact I would say councel culture ofra has existed everywhere and always it's an over
56:09
Speaker A
strategy so that those who compete for public influence can do their competition using these means now this were brilliant of course and the different uh Empires you know with defamation campaigns it was e even uh the emperor's spouses who were
56:30
Speaker A
highly cynical and who indulged in that and the fact that we have so little literature surviving from antique times I mean if you look at Greek literature it shows that they had brutal counil culture well amongst the christianized forces for example in
56:58
Speaker A
Rome now I don't really want to enlarge on this nevertheless it's been constant really now but democracy is something special it is something strange because democracy expects from us that we can form our own judgment that we willingly
57:14
Speaker A
Embark engage in discussion and conversation and this can only work if this is supported by culture of respect of mutual recognition of equality freedom and and if certain rights become part of our daily practice I'm not starting to shout at somebody just
57:32
Speaker A
because they have a different opinion fa you know if I do respond I will do this in a way that allows us to continue our conversation normally now I can be quite unrelenting I say that cast culture has
57:47
Speaker A
always existed so what we're seeing now is nothing new but democracy is something special and it is democracy that comes under the wheels if we go too far I would even say that Germany by International comparison is still doing
58:00
Speaker A
well the situation is still good but something is beginning to slip and I think that is something that we should be highly concerned about well I believe this and in order to return to the second part of your question about the
58:12
Speaker A
social media and that these tend to accelerate everything that the social media are a place where firstly polarization happens a place where artists take up a stance quickly and because of the format in an Abed manner very often of course
58:34
Speaker A
it's up to each and everyone on whether they want to participate and use it but obviously there seems to be a lot of a movement or a tendency for more and more people to get engaged and then cancelling not by institutions uh but
58:54
Speaker A
amongst artistic circles so you exhibit the work of others so you're saying this and that person wrote this and that and this makes quite clear I mean if you do use social media you will know pretty accurately Who belongs into which
59:15
Speaker A
Camp so and then of course and this they also you could use social media as a source of course in order to check up on people that is the institutions can use social media to check up on people who said what
59:33
Speaker A
when and that is why because of the social media it has become possible for these things to happen quicker but also to gain faster access to what is happening now of course my background is traditional literature so if you only
59:54
Speaker A
looked at texts that's an author has written when they had the time and didn't me to you know shorten their story in any way so I know I've got a big pmic here but that's is what is happening yes I'd like to just
60:15
Speaker A
contradict myself here and also say that social media is a great power for for good as well um in that we can use social Med media to counter those arguments I've seen we've all seen wonderful usually creative usually
60:32
Speaker A
artistic uh pieces um which have uh who have uh challenged who have made fun of um who have subverted messages from from these groups as well so just to remember that it's also a positive thing we're constantly talking about it as negative
60:50
Speaker A
well certainly in in my field um I've noticed that globally the people who are most likely to be attacked imprisoned are young people are rappers many many rappers in countries like uh in in across Africa in the Americas uh in the UK and elsewhere
61:15
Speaker A
because they you know they go on social media they have a specific message they can feel dangerous and they're very challenging and they're talking from societies that actually don't normally reach out to people like us shall we say
61:29
Speaker A
and they also do find themselves uh at the sharp end um satirists people who do little sketches um are also um very very popular and they're also getting Kickback but they keep doing it and they keep doing they keep doing it
61:46
Speaker A
because access to social media is easy it's cheap you can do it um in your bedroom or wherever so I just want to put a little bit of although I've also said that these rappers are also getting attacked I just want to put a little bit
62:01
Speaker A
of uh of of of positivity into this would would you agree with me Lena that much of positive than negative yeah um def yes definitely however I do believe that especially when they talk about Arts freedom and the processes that you can
62:19
Speaker A
see happening in Germany at the moment social media are used especially for this kind of uh restricting Freedom so when people get Uninvited I believe the first response is to write an open letter and another Factor would be who posted what when
62:42
Speaker A
where and that is why I believe the social media are getting instrumentalized a lot now I would like to really reach out to our audience here with a somebody feels the need to ask a question or perhaps to add to what has
63:00
Speaker A
been said here we do have a question please wait until you've got the mic oh it's right where you are that's handy so I'll try to speak in such a way that you can hear me for over 20 years I
63:12
Speaker A
work for a newspaper since 20 years I've now been a freelancer and because I was the boss I was also in charge of answering readers letters and they were only published uh if the place where the person lived and their name was
63:25
Speaker A
contained in the letter no unless there was was some special need for protection and in Germany there is a politician called an Kamp kenow and she tried to insist that when people voice themselves on social media that they would not say Anonymous
63:44
Speaker A
but that their name would be mentioned now people heaped ridicule on her and they said that this ran in the face of freedom of expression but I have to say from today's vantage point you know it's a shame that every
63:57
Speaker A
you know idiot you know can write whatever on the social media and that is a big problem really perhaps you can see a way as colleagues as it were well you know I think politically I think there's not much we can do and
64:16
Speaker A
social media now is Big Business of course so thank you very much for giving me the floor and the opportunity to say this and there's another question from in the back row I believe at the very end of the
64:34
Speaker A
hall thank you I wanted to chime in because the number of 180 cancellations can you put it that way I'm not sure and this number stems from a list penned by an activist Association can I call it an association
64:56
Speaker A
so a list compiled by this group and it only I only noticed now when I thought about what happened last weekend these events that have taken place so I don't really want to leave this number uncommented because I think you know you
65:12
Speaker A
have to take a second look at it because some included in that number are not cancel cases so I think you really have to trade very carefully so what facts you're using uh in your debate any other Commons and here's one
65:28
Speaker A
in the first row I too wanted to say something about the social media because earlier we talked about self- censorship and I believe for uh creative artist to social media even though you said that very often you know you will find yourself in
65:49
Speaker A
a niche with your opinion or you know people call you out whether it's Tik Tok or Instagram or book toop Germany I'm sure that most of you will know it curse whether that's a curse or a blessing for
66:02
Speaker A
the book trade who knows but there are a lot of these different movements Trends and people call out for boycotts for example and also independent creatives you know get really talked down and vilified and that is why it's important
66:18
Speaker A
to have a lot of independent creatives so the danger of self-censorship is real because PE artists are are so grateful for the visibility they've G that way and they don't want to endanger this so I'm not quite sure what the opinion is of the
66:34
Speaker A
panel with regards to what I said and the social media now perhaps before we will move on to you but because there is a specific question perhaps you can respond to it immediately perhaps uh Mr you will go first well I would like
66:52
Speaker A
to give an answer to both questions actually well up until April this year I was uh the vice president of the German ethical Council and we wrote an opinion too on humans and machine it was too long 400
67:13
Speaker A
pages and we really took a lot of efforts in answering these questions or take up a stance so social media what has gone wrong in this regard and actually even if you go back in history I believe it was President
67:30
Speaker A
Clinton's decision at the time to make sure there would be some journalistic or editorial responsibility that you should have so the fact that it's possible to now use it anonymously was also part of the original plan now and because Europe
67:50
Speaker A
always lags Behind These Technologies and jumps on the B bandwagon I mean if you look at Chad gbt we did not contribute to it we simply apply it because of this we will also take on board the way they're constituted if you
68:04
Speaker A
look at the data privacy regulation it tries to counteract this but it didn't really work if you look closely at least not as far as the big companies the big Tech firms in the US are concerned and that is why we really discussed this at
68:18
Speaker A
length and unfortunately it's now contained in the text but it's slightly vague because it was discussed quite controversially now Europe which always insists on following its own path you know AI transparent UI it should be human cented and all these
68:36
Speaker A
things so isn't one of the key aspects here that we should come up with an offer for an alternative infrastructure of uh digital interaction but a lot of people are say keep saying but you don't stand a chance
68:51
Speaker A
against the big ones but it's not that simple because you could change certain levers you could for example ask for a fee for the usage of data if you did then things would change very differently uh would change very quickly
69:05
Speaker A
in Europe so whe this is organized uh by using foundations or other platforms and there are experts we have in the European Union and I believe we have to go down this road if we are only over the appendix to these uh Dynamic
69:21
Speaker A
developments taking place in the if we just play along then we will also lose some of our political culture and I believe that Europe should be much more Brave in China you have a state controlled citizen score model for
69:37
Speaker A
example and we have the US model everything free unrestricted commercial no Anti-Trust restriction all of this is no longer applies because they've all gotten far too powerful if you look at the large petroleum companies they far to Big they've never actually and
69:56
Speaker A
been you know broken down and now it's too late so I believe Europe really should find its own strategy with for a digital infrastructure would you like to answer one of the questions the question about uh numbers and uh you're absolutely
70:16
Speaker A
right um that the um the numbers that are given can be manipulated up or down depending on where your stance is and also how you define a cancellation how you define an attack or whatever it really underlines to me um what we wrote
70:34
Speaker A
in the IFA report that there is even in Europe a lack of independent monitoring that can counter that um I know the figure is pretty large because we've been collecting it independently ourselves but you're quite right to question that figure what we
70:50
Speaker A
really need is proper independent monitors with expertise with human rights data collection expertise then we don't fall into that trap maybe I did or didn't I don't know but I I do appreciate the question that was a good
71:09
Speaker A
point okay then I would like to answer to the answer the last question that is in line with Sarah's answer I cannot guess the amount of self censorship that exists but I think it has a lot to do with what you think you
71:29
Speaker A
can see in social media and I think this also applies to all other political uh discourses is the algorithm capable of presenting us a certain world in which you are not allowed to say certain things I think the other side be it the Left
71:51
Speaker A
Right Pro Palestinian pro-israel would say exact the same thing and would see only confirmation in social media so every attempt to review this scientifically or to to find the facts of what is actually going on and what is
72:12
Speaker A
only um repeated it needs to be um opposed to facts and that is more important than ever because social media reinforce this tendency and this might create pressure to voice your opinion you of course you can also decide not to
72:41
Speaker A
voice your opinion and there are also algorithm based bubbles where it is totally okay not to voice an opinion in social media but I think we need to work on on that with facts before I give the floor to you in
73:00
Speaker A
the back um I wanted to get back to you because you um you talk to me directly that was an interesting example it was best practice in journalism that um Letters by readers in newspapers are only published if you
73:20
Speaker A
know the identity if you know the person by name and the address and I think um most newspapers still follow that practice and um I think in social media and um if social media users send us their their comments they are asked to
73:47
Speaker A
disclose their identity with a newspaper but on the internet this is not the case if you find these comments in the newspaper if you find if you look at the comments on the internet of a newspaper you can post whatever you want because
74:05
Speaker A
it is no longer possible to trace like the identity of all the different comments and also because people say this this is my alas Elias and that is generally accept it so I think it is a Pity that we
74:30
Speaker A
haven't made the effort in the beginning to work on that that we just accepted this new momentum and now getting back to what we had is really difficult and that is one of the basic problems when dealing with phenomena like this one
74:47
Speaker A
that we haven't been familiar with we are a little bit too late in in um in this process and um I I am experiencing two different worlds when it comes to read a comments but now let's have the question
75:07
Speaker A
in the back good evening I would like to share one thought and I also have one specific question your example Professor n rling the example of doeski I don't think that you should cancel a lecture but there is a reason why that
75:33
Speaker A
happened and also um when it comes to ukrainians they don't want this and I think um and I think that in addition to the interest and the and the empathy we should explain more also when we have an event like
76:00
Speaker A
this one tonight we should explain the perspective of the other what's the problem about doeski of course many people know doeski but you might misuse his work and getting to know and um understanding the others perspective requires more explanations
76:22
Speaker A
and um you could consider that in an event like this one and then my question we have heard a lot about the limitations and the negative developments in your opinion are there also positive developments like new legislations or
76:44
Speaker A
examples that show a different tendency can um uh there have been a number of countries that have uh changed or removed problematic laws uh since 2016 there's been three countries that have removed their blasphemy laws um Greece Italy and Malta and Malta has
77:10
Speaker A
already has recently also changed its laws to specifically protect satire which is quite interesting Ireland removed an obscenity law recently there had been actually growing interest in Freedom of artistic expression um 10 years years ago when I started on this
77:27
Speaker A
people were saying this is not really a thing but now we're seeing many conferences and discussions about it so that's a good thing as well um the problem with freedom of artistic expression or artistic freedom is more the lack of understanding of what we're
77:42
Speaker A
talking about um even among artists themselves uh the lack of uh knowledge of what uh you can do to protect artistic Freedom lack of knowledge of what is and isn't in a attack on artistic freedom and this is something
77:58
Speaker A
that myself and my colleagues have been working on what the IFA report is on um but overall yes there there are slow good changes legal changes take a long long long time but um they happen they happen as
78:16
Speaker A
why I would also like to answer your question first one that was not an example from Ukraine but from Milan but of course in Ukraine we have a very there is a very difficult situation also when it comes to culture Ukraine is
78:39
Speaker A
not part of the European Union um in the European Union it wouldn't be possible to oppress minorities and languages but this is something else this had nothing to do with Ukraine but with Italy and I found it quite remarkable
78:58
Speaker A
um and I thought it gives great reason for concern to use that attack as a reason or an explanation to do that and this conveys an ideology as well and um taking an author like this one out of a universi program is to me
79:21
Speaker A
completely unacceptable and my second comment about the positive um Tendencies maybe I can refer to Germany I am only an observer I am no longer responsible or shaping this but I found that the Cults are acting quite reasonably I'm now using the problematic
79:51
Speaker A
germ check checking ideology and linking this to funding this is happening also in Berlin and that's a good sign and also in um working on the documenta Scandal and the anti-semitic pieces of art at the end the readers did
80:14
Speaker A
not Prevail Claudia wrote um shouldn't have allowed this piece of art that would have been um dramatic if it is up to the policy makers to decide on this hopefully Claudia rud never chooses pieces of Arts to show on the
80:38
Speaker A
documenta but that was of course a governance problem that was a Cascade of um diffusing responsibilities there were curators that were responsible that the responsibility was delegated to ask directors so at the end of the day there was not a single person who was in
80:59
Speaker A
charge and also the refusal to take a St as an individual that was very interesting but I think the response that we've seen that this is not possible that the policy makers decide that was positive I would also like to say one
81:21
Speaker A
sentence on dooi and another one um on positive developments I also try to make that point in my introduction I think the Arts have always been a place of negotiation or deliberation so coming back to just yki the dispute evolving around
81:51
Speaker A
doeski should should happen what characterizes a language what shapes the Russian language in how far is the Russian language shaped by realism what is Doki even writing about maybe so far we have only considered this on an aesthetic level
82:13
Speaker A
but we have never questioned certain images that he uses this is exactly one purpose of the Arts and this is the place where we should discuss these question questions and uh prohibiting is the contrary of discussing and researching and exploring
82:33
Speaker A
so it contradicts the purpose of Arts per se and when it comes to positive developments so we've heard International examples we've heard about the legal perspective maybe I can speak about my own experience with cultural institutions after the 7th of
83:02
Speaker A
October I was looking into these cancellations a lot and I tried again and again to have conversations and debates that some people say would not be possible but I have had these debates and I put a lot of effort into bringing
83:23
Speaker A
these discussions on stage and I experienced a lot of support by many cultural institutions and I have received many invitations so I would like to speak out against this so there is the political side with certain requirements and
83:40
Speaker A
intentions but there are still individual cultural institutions that are really committed to everyone being able to say what they want up to a certain limit of course which is negotiated individually but that are committed to the freedom of
84:02
Speaker A
speech and arts there is one more comment one more question could you please use the microphone let me come back to the beginning when we talked about the cancel culture that was also the introduction of today so it has been
84:22
Speaker A
said that cancel culture always existed and that cancel culture have only has only become an extent existential problem through social media and then you said Mr nin that the cancer culture has not suffered because of the media but
84:52
Speaker A
that it now that cel culture now meets democracy but I think democracies have existed ever since the American Declaration of Independence but before that Arts had already have already existed now now the question is does art depend on
85:19
Speaker A
freedom to create or can art not grow based on Resistance no this hypothesis that art only thrives in free societies I believe nobody posited that here tonight but if you look at the Arts of the medieval times and even Rena art now
85:48
Speaker A
that was an art of the clerics of princes he wanted to be remembered for eternity for their glorious deed now this does not mean that therefore poor or bad art was produced but it was clear that only those who were Rich enough would enable
86:11
Speaker A
ART and they of course decided on you know what would be created and what couldn't be made so great art so but I say of course if you have a democratic framework that um that you don't instrumentalize Arts I mean you
86:31
Speaker A
can of course debate of course democracy what is democracy in a free open and liberal Society but that is how I understand it namely that we do not just see State Arts but that the state opens up spaces for art to
86:51
Speaker A
thrive I don't want to of course say that these examples have not existed over time but this is uh of course one of course advantage of our uh society and I don't think we should endanger it now we did have some impressive artistic
87:08
Speaker A
developments in the past uh classic modernism for example now this was viewed very critically at the very beginning 1876 the Paris exhibition of the impressionist painters people say now this is awful art it is nothing to do with how we understand art and over
87:27
Speaker A
the next Decades of course this has engendered a wide variety of different art visual art and so it early wouldn't have been possible for this kind of art of of course it would have been stopped by the palace that be
87:46
Speaker A
no it really depends of course on your perspective but if we say that the major developments over the history of art so Greek art Renaissance Art of course that was something very new which came up with a new idea of humans these were
88:03
Speaker A
always times when things changed spiritually so the context for Arts improved for the better because freeth thinking was more possible doesn't mean that societies were free and that is why I'm tend to be more optimistic of course we have fantastic art that was produced
88:19
Speaker A
by uh sleave societies such as um Egypt for example but it's interesting to think about what the art would have looked like had these societies been Freer and that is a lot of people a question that I get asked by people who
88:33
Speaker A
were in the oppos position in the gdr they they said well in the dictatorship times we had a much more attentive audience hence were able to be a lot more subtle in the way we argued and we could write much more intelligent texts
88:48
Speaker A
I mean I'm putting it bluntly of course they put it much more intelligently than I can now but something else is important is that we should look at what happens or what was created at the same time in
89:00
Speaker A
more liberal societies and is it true that the end result was poor art I would uh assert that well probably the field is a par as I said so we shouldn't just you know focus of on Art I mean great
89:17
Speaker A
art canot justify the violation of Human Rights any other comments or questions yes so because you talked about art in medieval times that is true but I think something else that you should add is something that was mentioned
89:36
Speaker A
before that art freed itself from the from from uh the P that b happened earlier I mean Romanticism for example St Drang this was no longer in the service of course of princes I mean gerto of course did have a prince to
89:54
Speaker A
serve but it was much Freer in the way he was able to exercise his art so perhaps they preempted some developments already um that's were to happen later in democracies well perhaps they can come in on this now for me this is like
90:08
Speaker A
you know Germany's a latecomers of democracy and even a failed democracy if you look back to the 19th century with these incredible uh VAR contributions to the development of Art and Science it really paved the way for a free Society
90:25
Speaker A
obviously so all of this did not just become possible because of democracy But A diversity of science brought about a Freer and more Democratic Society or or launched it put it on the rails as it were other questions or
90:47
Speaker A
comments well thank you herin for contributing your comments on Visual Arts now what I'm lacking here is music music as an art and music as an nart form is slightly more enjo perhaps a little bit more independent compared to the word or
91:10
Speaker A
Visual Arts now that is something that I would like to add well uh music doesn't vub people's backup so easily perhaps now before we are going to come to the Grand finale or before finishing off let me come back to a
91:28
Speaker A
question that has to do with art as such now we just heard from an author from Alina gorik and also in the current booklet of the Academy of Arts in Berlin it contains uh a comment by the new vice
91:47
Speaker A
president about a program and as we just heard sometimes art is a little bit slower it can take more time it's not always as rushed as everyone else now the Arts is something that that I S think in
92:04
Speaker A
terms of boundaries artists I would wager are Freer and they think more internationally in many different respect now sometimes this seems to create some friction with the rise of nationalism again so it's two ideals that come up against each other and that
92:22
Speaker A
is why I thought it was interesting to hear Sarah wide mentioned the 7th of October 2023 are such an important Hiatus for Germany too and that is what I keep hearing from my friends abroad how how do you see it when they tell us
92:38
Speaker A
what is happening in Germany you used to be so liberal and now everything is much stricter now of course it's to do with the German history and the atrocities committed here and because of there people here proceed with a lot more
92:50
Speaker A
caution compared to others and hence follow follows very different rules so to what extent do you believe that this is a fundamental conflict between the claim of art so to work specifically for people and the states that look at the
93:06
Speaker A
society depending on the mentality the social conditions and everything else if hum are you asking thinking that the uh the censorship or the default funding is actually not just in Germany as well there been a big issue in the states and
93:29
Speaker A
to a lesser extent in the UK um interestingly I've not seen it so much in other countries um which I think I'm not really equipped to really understand why they did the case it's clear why it is in Germany to a certain extent in in
93:43
Speaker A
in the US in the US um but it's all kinds of speech it's not just the Arts really in this particular case to be honest um I think that artists have been uh very vocal in this case which is unusual
93:59
Speaker A
because usually artists don't work so much in uh collabor collaboratively um again I'm not not quite ready to understand why that is the case what a very good answer but best I can do perhaps you have an answer why you
94:21
Speaker A
know this why the AR just have become so vocal suddenly well the way I feel is that this is something that already during the last years has been in the making after the 7th of October of course uh it
94:40
Speaker A
has become even more tangible but that's to do with October and everything that followed in its wake also the war against Gaza and uh the on in Germany but I believe all of this has meant that in Germany the Arts that I followed the
95:05
Speaker A
kinds of Arts that I followed have been a good deal more political at much more focal over the last years already another um I began to see artists being much more upfront with the um Arab Spring Revolution when you saw musicians you
95:28
Speaker A
saw art you saw right up there and that might also be partly due to the fact of social media yep yeah I mean artists have always you know played instruments and been marching at the front and done plays but when were that
95:43
Speaker A
2011 so I think actually that might be one uh one of the reasons why we're seeing art more Forefront it mhm perhaps you would like to but I would like to hear you of course so I am happy
96:00
Speaker A
to join in now as I before I'm no longer doing cultural politics but I still have my contacts of course with the culture Foundation the German culture foundation and a lot of people who you know play a role in the field of Arts such as the
96:22
Speaker A
different curating Council or boards so people are worried that Germany perhaps detaches itself from the international scene which very often has an attitude that take substances that are seen as problematic in Germany so BDS but there are a lot of critical you
96:44
Speaker A
know artists and not all of them are anti-semitic a lot of them are Jews who either supported BDS which I think is there shouldn't be support I think the boycott idea is not the right one but there are a lot of other
97:00
Speaker A
endeavors and you know and a lot of people he could not possibly be suspected of anti-Semitism so and if we use this as a Criterion for whether we going to invite somebody to International exhibitions literary events then that
97:16
Speaker A
wouldn't be good so I believe we have to be very careful indeed and I'm very much in favor of uh showing solidarity and so so the German is something that is linked I can understand this to some extent so not
97:46
Speaker A
just but also Schmid criticized it so if understood and inter it properly so the chancellor didn't at the time she was almost flipping about it you you can speak up for this but this must not mean that vis a government that
98:06
Speaker A
includes right extreme the people that you should not distance yourself from it and if you follow the terrible developments in the Gaza trp you cannot say you're going to ignore it because this is only a state that defends itself
98:23
Speaker A
in view of the terrible things happening there that is not good enough I mean every person has the same worth the political philosopher said that each human life has a same worth so we have to be very careful that
98:41
Speaker A
you know something doesn't start to slip slide in Germany well thank you very much uh for listening and for the interesting comments and thank you ever so much to the three panelist we had here tonight L gorig Sarah B and julan N ralin
Topics:artistic freedomfreedom of expressioncensorshipcancel cultureself-censorshippolarizationhuman rightsGermanysocial mediacultural policy

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