Speaker A
Coming to you live from the gift wrapping room, gift wrapping room of the, uh, Ditch Diggers Manor. It is the Ditch Diggers Merl afy and Ursula Vernon. Ditch Diggers appear and ain't no one to be here with some not so nice
Mur Lafferty and Ursula Vernon discuss their experiences at Worldcon 2024, writing careers, and upcoming conventions with candid insights.
Key Takeaways
- Writing careers require resilience and a willingness to accept blunt advice and criticism.
- Conventions like Worldcon and Bubonic Con are valuable for networking and community building.
- Remote work and relocation can offer new opportunities for writers and creatives.
- Health and wellness remain important considerations during travel and events.
- Sustainable living choices, such as solar power, can positively impact personal finances.
What the video covers
- Mur Lafferty and Ursula Vernon host the Ditch Diggers podcast from the gift wrapping room, offering blunt advice on building a writing career.
- They reflect on their recent trip to Scotland for Worldcon 2024 and share health updates regarding COVID-19 exposure.
- Discussion includes their upcoming attendance and roles at Bubonic Con in New Mexico, highlighting the con's unique name and history.
- They talk about relocating to New Mexico, the local writing community, and the benefits of working remotely.
- Ursula shares about installing solar power at home and the impact on their electric bill.
- They touch on networking at conventions, the challenges of writing careers, and the importance of not being overly precious about the process.
- The conversation includes humorous and practical anecdotes about prairie dogs, plague reservoirs, and the realities of convention life.
- They mention ongoing projects such as Mur’s interactive fiction class and Ursula’s reflections on past art work.
- The hosts emphasize the fun and excitement of writing despite its hard work and the importance of community support.
- They also discuss managing rejection sensitivity and the value of persistence in creative careers.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Hosts Overview
- 04:07Bubonic Con and Upcoming Appearances
- 07:54Relocation Plans and Solar Power Installation
- 11:34Writing Career Insights and Networking
- 15:31Health Updates and Convention Experiences
- 17:50Creative Challenges and Project Updates
- 23:27Community, Rejection, and Persistence
- 28:40Closing Thoughts and Future Plans
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
advice for your writing career. To be clear, no punches will be pulled, but the punch maybe [ __ ] how they like before they get on the m. To my left, we got the mighty Mer, and if I piss her off, believe
Speaker A
me, she'll come after me and her co-host Ursa Vernon on the right. Yes, she's furniture aside a slime mold spee tonight, so settle in, F. Buckle in it, boot up time to meddle in a way to make your
Speaker A
wrer shut up. It's hard work, but the perk is that it is fun and exciting. Facebook will still be there when you're done, right? Bch [Music]. Diggers, Ditch Diggers. Hi, it's been a long time, long time for me, long time for
Speaker A
you, Ursula. Long time, long time. Just really, yeah, there's been a lot going on. Yes, yes, there has been quite a bit going on. Uh, I am Mer Laery, and this is Ditch Diggers here with my co-host Ursula Vernon. We're
Speaker A
here to tell you about building a writing career and, uh, not being precious about it if you actually want to make it a career. So yes, the bit that comes after the you sell the book. Oh, thank you for the follow. Um, yeah,
Speaker A
so we've been to Scotland, and that was neat, and I think we're mainly going to talk about that here. CU, I don't, is there stuff to be mad about? I'm not keeping up. There's so much to be mad
Speaker A
about in the world. I think we can probably go one episode without having to get mad. I was more thinking of like right now. Oh, uh, probably, but I don't know what it is. Yeah. Oh, oh, I know what it is. It's CA, but
Speaker A
there's still not a lot of data out about that. But, uh, we can mention that. That is that a mad thing or is that just a thing? I was more talking about newsworthy things to talk about, and it
Speaker A
usually involves being angry about something, so I just jumped to that. Okay, I was like, I'm not mad at S. I worry for them. Yeah, but yes, anyway, let's start with, uh, how we're doing. I am, I'm fine. I did not get covid from
Speaker A
Worldcon, and then I came back and comforted a friend who then tested positive for Co, so, uh, I think I'm done. I've passed the Scottish, uh, covid gauntlet, and now I'm hoping to, I'm still feeling fine, I'm still testing negative,
Speaker A
but hoping I did not get it from my friend. Uh, and I'm working on a novel reedit, edit, and I'm working on my interactive fiction class, which should be done in about a month. How about you, Ursula? What's the world like? Uh, I too
Speaker A
did not get, uh, Co in Scotland. I honestly kind of expected to with all the people who were testing positive, some of whom I had been hanging out with, and then I got a head, what, you know, snot and whatnot. I
Speaker A
was like, oh God, it's the co. I, I have failed. There it goes. And yeah, and I kept testing, and I am negative. Uh, it's genuinely head cold, which is weird because we all forget that other diseases exist, uh, especially when you're
Speaker A
like hugging people who then test positive. Right, right. It's read the room, other diseases, as someone said online. Uh, so yes, I, I got an actual head cold, and wow, it's sort of novel. I don't enjoy it. Uh, yeah, but I'm fine, just, you know, the
Speaker A
stage where you blow your nose and horrible things happen. Yeah, yeah, and we are both preparing, uh, assuming we continue to test negative, to head off to another con like very quickly. Yeah, we're going to be, uh, going to Bubanic Con this
Speaker A
weekend. Every person I tell that to starts making a joke about the, the title, the name of the con, and doesn't actually ask or acknowledge that it's actually a thing that I'm doing. So, um, yes, it is called funny name. It's supposed to be a
Speaker A
funny name. I know, I know, it's, it's in New Mexico, which, uh, the rodents there are one of the places that are a reservoir of the Black Death in, uh, the United States. I question the word reservoir, but I'm betting you're using
Speaker A
it scientifically. Yeah, so it, I mean, do they all think if we need the Black Plague, we go to Albuquerque and just dip into the rat population? Uh, ground squirrel, I believe, but yes. Oh, sorry, we're being politically
Speaker A
correct. No, it wasn't politically correct that we, they might be in rats too. I just know that they're in the grounds also. Uh, prairie dogs incidentally carry the plague, so should we not? Okay, so don't cuddle prairie dogs. Cuddle prairie dogs.
Speaker A
There was a thing for a little bit where there was a phase where people were like trying to get them as an exotic pet, and then first of all, they're bitey, and they're not really into that, and secondly, you can get the plague, so don't
Speaker A
do that. Don't get a PR pet prairie dog. Uh, it was someone in Carrie actually who I had a business car. Yeah, yeah, no, it's the one Garden Garden Solutions or whatever place, big, uh, big cage with like
Speaker A
three prairie dogs just hanging out, and I'm like, that's not a good idea, and the staff were like, yeah, we hit them. So okay, I forgot why we went there. Oh, bu, either I've forgotten Bubonic Con. Yes, okay, yes,
Speaker A
yes, yes, Bubonic. I will be one of the guests of honor with TJ Cloon, and, uh, Ursula and, and her husband Kevin are going to be the Toastmasters. Yep, this is our fourth time coming out to Bubonic Con, and this is the last time that
Speaker A
they can finagle in any way to get us out as a guest. They had me out as the artist, they had me out as the writer, they had me out as the Toastmaster. Now they're like, we, okay, we can't repeat
Speaker A
guest, but we can technically have you and Kevin both as the toast basor, and that's new. Now they're out of solutions, so we're moving to New Mexico. Yeah, yeah, you do know you can just go to the con
Speaker A
as a writer, right? You could even go as a writer SL artist. I, I do so little art these days, but yeah, that's what the little people do. I know. No, it's not a little people thing. It's a, it's a Ursula burned
Speaker A
herself out, uh, doing children's books. Yeah, yeah, uh, you remember those days when I was like, you were like, what are you doing, and I'm like, I'm drawing 300 dragons. No more dragons, more hamsters. Yeah, I do remember those days.
Speaker A
I'm sorry. No, it's okay. But yes, uh, Kevin and I are planning to move to New Mexico, uh, this fall, and we are so after Bubonic Con, we are taking a week to drive around the state, and since housing is cheaper
Speaker A
there than it is here, and we both work at home, we are just like looking at places so we can be like, I could live here, and I don't want to live here. Yeah, and I'll be in North Carolina
Speaker A
weaving loudly. Um, funny thing, funny thing here is that we have finally installed solar power on our house. Our electric bill last month was zero. Um, we're not 100% covered, but I think we get offset by because we give power to
Speaker A
the grid, and so that whatever we take from the grid gets offset by that, blah, blah, blah, and so it's like we just spent the money to do that, and now we have the nice home without an electric
Speaker A
bill. I guess now's not the time to just up and move. It seems like a bad use of money. Doesn't your husband have like a job here? Sure, but his company is many, many places. Oh, well, if you decide you want to
Speaker A
move to New Mexico, like there's an assload of science fiction writers and fantasy writers there, so if in the course of your career you are a sci-fi or fantasy writer, apparently, uh, at some point in digging that ditch you want to
Speaker A
move to New Mexico. I don't know why, but everyone else has. Yeah, yes, Diana Roland did, and she's G. Be Aton. I can't wait to see her. Yep, looking forward to it. Yeah, uh, lots and lots of names. I was talking
Speaker A
to Arcadey Martin of, uh, uh, Memory Called Empire, and, uh, she was like, wait, New Mexico? Here, let me tell you all the things I work for the thing, and, uh, I, she might be living in Colorado, I don't know
Speaker A
where she's living, but anyway, she was like, yes, I know New Mexico. Let me do not move here, here, or here. We're like, oh really? We were kind of looking at Elephant, but she's like, nope, horrible MAGA Central. All of your neighbors will
Speaker A
be like, you know, waving guns and Trump flags. Like, that is a thing. I do not wish. We have, uh, Cipher of Tier in chat saying, uh, hello Ursula, great to meet you at Worldcon. Finally, we, uh, both got to
Speaker A
meet Cipher a
Speaker A
and D 50th Anniversary thing going on at World con So Co oh good nightbot oh the kids are asleep did it thank you kids are asleep I don't have an automatic sh shout out for Cipher I'm sorry Cipher
Speaker A
but yay yes follow Cipher uh a lot of a lot of balers gate streams recently and it's so much fun actually I'm curious about where you you stand with this Ursula um in the ter in the in the world
Speaker A
of like interactive writing um we hung out with uh Sam bayart who is the voice for uh carlac at world conon and they did we I thought you did did I I don't think I don't know I'm sorry uh I don't
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remember well Cypher and I did sorry I think that might have been the Wii I was saying but anyway uh they were they they told cyer a very specific thing to do to unlock a specific dialogue that's amazing and I'm
Speaker A
like I don't know if anybody would think to just do that and I I wonder about the hiding of these Easter eggs of uh essentially it's it was uh you play as carac you can play as one of the origin
Speaker A
characters and after the nautiloid crashes you don't go see Shadow har but you go to camp and I'm not going to tell you anymore because you got to see it yourself it doesn't take that long to set that up or you can probably find it
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on YouTube but it is an amazing amazing thing and you have to go through so many Hoops to get it cuz who doesn't go see shadowart right after you crash she's right there so when it comes to making
Speaker A
stuff like that do you've done some interactive work do you did you try to hide things and were you like giddy about it or did you think no one will ever find this uh the interactive work I was doing was all text based so it was
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uh there were narrower channels of what you could do than the more open World stuff but uh yeah I act on the assumption that if there is any sequence of events someone will find it and so I am I am all for those things I
Speaker A
uh uh there were a couple that I worked out even in my my long ago now sadly defunct uh story Nexus game cryptic stitching where if you you know were a uh if you had talked to one character
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and then you had chosen to be a shaman and you had gone back to a place that you should have been done with and you hung out long enough and then selected one set of things uh you wound up
Speaker A
building a sand castle with one of the shamans who was uh uh like the spirits told me they wanted a sand castle and uh it was very hard to trigger but uh it's there's a uh uh yeah I I feel that there should
Speaker A
always uh you should just assume someone will try everything thing and sometimes uh game devs are humans just like the rest of us and uh uh we were both married to one at one point I was one at one point I don't
Speaker A
remember if you were one at one point but uh the they're they're humans and they sometimes do things just to amuse themselves uh like uh I happen to be lucky enough to have a conversation with one of the uh writers on balers Gate 3
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and I uh looked her and I said okay did you put [ __ ] the Mind flare in just because someone was going to ask and she was like she had written that bit and she was like no actually uh I the lead
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you know programmer uh I was like we got this this and this and he was joking but I didn't realize it just said just write me a scene where you [ __ ] the Mind flare I don't care I
Speaker A
have to go take this call so I was in his office trying desperately to write that scene he had just told me to write because and so yeah and then I had it in and he was like oh my God you actually
Speaker A
did it yes so yeah yep yep that yeah small small spoiler that is a thing you can do in balers Gate 3 and uh I have done it and then when you're done you this portal opens behind you and like
Speaker A
three of your other friends are there like staring down at you with this look of horror and disgust on their faces and the mind flare is like no I'll alter their memories no big deal I missed that b oh yeah did it that
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was first thing she asked like did you do it and I was like no but I had a friend who did was I that friend of course you were that I'm the friend that [ __ ] the Mind flare yes I'm so
Speaker A
proud you should be yeah I know I I was the friend who just get kept getting turned into a wheel of cheese because I thought it was funny yes but we're supposed to be talking about ditch diggers ditching yes
Speaker A
yes we have to write talk about writing books and uh anyway the thing I'm supposed to be working on uh which because we never even got through that bit was uh I have so many books to do edits
Speaker A
on like the problem is that uh a couple of uh companies in the UK licensed some of my self Pub books which is great I get money they more money happens they sell again that reactivates the backlist basically because uh when a a bigger
Speaker A
Publishing House buys them there's advertising and store placement and then people buy them and are like oh my God I need everything that this writer has has written remember the biggest advertising for your back list is your front list uh
Speaker A
so it's great but also they copy edited and localized since they're in the UK uh like four books and they're like can we have your approval or not in uh by September 9th and I'm like that and when
Speaker A
I said yes that was not nearly as far away or that was not nearly as close as it is now so I have to frantically copyedit a whole bunch of things and also I'm supposed to be writing a or
Speaker A
finishing off a book for 47 North and also I have been handed edits on uh uh another book for tour and uh so yes there's a lot and what I really want to be writing is the next Palladin romance
Speaker A
but uh we'll see when that happens you just you're just shaking all your your your your deals all your contracts in my face all your deadlines no I'm not trying to do that I'm I'm trying to express it know I know I know I am I'm
Speaker A
in the position where uh I'm out of contract and we're trying to sell something new so I'm trying not to fuss about that but it is dis jiggers which is when we fuss about things like that um no that that is we have all been
Speaker A
there and that is a very unsettling place to be the am I selling something or have have I just become unemployed what am I doing yeah yeah and um I am doing another round of edits on my novel
Speaker A
which uh we had a a excellent Ursula let me like I guess tag along and be Kevin on one of your uh meetings with an editor at at uh World con and so I went and I got the the the
Speaker A
fancy drinks and we went to a very fany drink thing explain how how if you are there editors will come to cons so my world con and World fantasy are the two big ones where editors in our Branch
Speaker A
come to and you people set up meetings with them and usually if you're an author with their company that means the editor takes you to brunch or something uh my agent said it all up because she was coming to worldcon for the first
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time and so I had a I did a lot more this time than I normally do because normally I meet no one I hang out at the bar or whatnot and and with friends uh but my agenda is like you are meeting
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all of the editors that you work with in the UK and uh also you know your editor from tour is there and wants to buy dinner and so like there was I suddenly I had a like tight schedule it was a
Speaker A
little unsettling but anyway usually what happens is they take you to brunch or something like that and then there is drinking it is if you are a non-drinker it is okay that is you can just say that but in this case they the editor set up
Speaker A
a a meeting at this really confusing bar confusing oh sorry I did not expect that adjective go on no no no I yeah I and uh I brought M along because like this is It's I felt like it wasn't really a
Speaker A
networking event so much when you already know the editor and they've already bought your stuff but it's good to like you know reaffirm those bonds with people and whatnot so they can put a brain to a face and or whatever
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however that works and uh so I was like M come along because if M that might have been networking because now the editor knows who you are and in person and whatnot so uh but they had fancy drinks like with
Speaker A
dry ice and levitation and [ __ ] the bar was was specifically super fancy because of its drinks you could I don't think you could go there and get like a martini or if you did they would do
Speaker A
something really weird to the martini um it it would like Ursula got a drink with a like a disc of sugar like a hard disc of sugar on the top clear and you had to break the and then they gave
Speaker A
you to break yeah to break the uh the thing whether it was like break glass uh in case of drink or something like that yeah and you got a I I didn't get anything visually fancy I got like a gin
Speaker A
thing that was green and it tasted good and then I got the one that comes with the flask cuz I wanted the flask and it was a gin drink and the drink was good but I'm just like flask I want the flask
Speaker A
I got to have the flask so um but the other two drinks that the T the the editor and Ursula's agent had very fancy drinks Ed uh your agent had one that levitated they had to make sure nobody
Speaker A
had a pacemaker at the table because they were using a heavy magnet and um what was what was the dry ice one your editor got uh it it came in like a beaker with dry ice and what looked like
Speaker A
herbs in it and you had to like pour the thing over a a filter and yeah it was uh it was something and then yeah just the whole thing was the sort of place that I think you almost have to have a meeting
Speaker A
like that at because I would never go there normally that is like way too fancy and weird for me I just want a a Mojito yeah it's it's the kind of place that it was a Friday I believe but it
Speaker A
was like early Friday afternoon or mid Friday afternoon and you walk in and suddenly it's Friday night and everybody is hotter than you and yeah it's like do these people have jobs I just I mean it wasn't that busy but it was just very
Speaker A
very strange and I brought this up for a reason and now I forgot what it was uh uh you said uh the something that uh I let you tag along to a thing and Ed the edits uh the a the editor involved
Speaker A
actually made me feel better because for station eternity I had to do two really big edit passes and uh chaos terminal only had one and now with infinite archive I'm having to do at least two and I'm just feeling like everybody else
Speaker A
turns in relatively clean drafts and I'm garbage and uh your editor told me some something about somebody who did like six six edits six and and and I'm like okay okay it's not just me also I hope I'm never
Speaker A
in that situation but I I'm not up to six yet so um yeah I'm just trying to and today was a lot of like getting my head on straight with with just getting back into the um the swing of things cuz last last week I
Speaker A
was very tired and I don't even remember last week I didn't even have like a an excuse about uh travel I just or or or illness I think I was sitting around waiting for Co to hit and it didn't not that I was I
Speaker A
was very proud of myself I took took last week off very smart and but I never do that I actually had to uh my husband Kevin runs a podcast called productivity Alchemy and uh I had to I I went in and I was like I
Speaker A
require Absolution from the productivity Pope that it is okay to take it off he's like you have a cold you did international travel you've been busy all weekend and yes go forth and and take a sick day take two sick days take
Speaker A
the rest of the week off and then I felt better but yeah I have the I mean you and I both have the the Protestant work ethic problem of you know if I am not productive and working what is my worth
Speaker A
as a human being yeah this does not apply to other people other people are allowed to have worth as human beings not related to their productivity self yes yeah but yeah so but yeah it's it's I I did take I guess a little bit
Speaker A
of time to recover and um but yeah it's but I did I was not sick though and now I'm just hoping I'm don't I I remain unick you weren't sick but you did do the uh the massive travel from uh east
Speaker A
to west and back again and also you worked all weekend and didn't take it off so that's true cons are work very much so oh I had a massive migraine that's what happened okay that there you were see absolutely Justified
Speaker A
Absolut we are completely broken people that we have to come up with reasons that our leisure time is Justified yeah yeah intell game says the good old Protestant work ethic running us into the ground can I get a shout out
Speaker A
for intell game intell game one of those uh streamers who thank you uh one of the streamers whose name is exactly what the stream is like you want to have an intelligent conversation about games go watch and tell a game he's awesome um do you ever
Speaker A
talk about magic the Gathering because my husband got me back into it and I'm so mad that's a good question I I've not seen him do uh tabletop stuff but I don't know tell us in tell game do you
Speaker A
do magic the Gathering because Ursula is mad sorry to completely derail from digging ditches no it's fine it's fine kids are asleep shelling Bloom is this something I should know yes Bloom is the latest uh uh expansion from for Magic
Speaker A
the Gathering and it is adorable it is all cute little animals that whose world is being invaded by Massive scary animals and so you have little mice with swords and I believe the mouse guard guy did a lot of work right and it is
Speaker A
freaking adorable and uh I have made some very lethal decks with frogs this surprises me not at all uh kids are asleep please put a link to your story in uh the chat and we'll get that into the show notes as well uh uh
Speaker A
the kids are asleep Valerie Valdez wrote the story for Bloom Barrow oh yes and is here and yeah and she's here yeah wow thank you uh you did good work I I am enjoying it enormously also my husband's igra leer
Speaker A
of all deck is is brutal but God that's a great card um but yeah Intel game says there's so much magic out there I might get into it okay I guess he hasn't gotten into it yet oh no no don't save yourself run no
Speaker A
please please do not do it because I said anything no you need that money to live uh kids are asleep clarifies not the cards but they they commissioned a story for her to right so like Ella or novelet something um is
Speaker A
is oh I am I am deeply envious that is that that is exactly the sort of media property I would I would write for in a heart no one ever asks but that's okay hang on I have to let
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the dog out keep talking I can he sure um it's funny Ursula just reminded me I did not ask her about one of her meetings and I shouldn't ask now because we're on the internet I got to remind myself to ask
Speaker A
you how that meeting went that thing but um uh they didn't have anything for me right now they said they were about a year out they were just making uh uh they were just making contacts and this is sometimes random thing companies will
Speaker A
be like we would like to talk to you uh so I could have crashed yeah 100% [ __ ] uh you just show up and it is not there is no business done it is just you meet each other and go you're cool I
Speaker A
seem like I could work with you or you're interesting or whatever thank you for the free drink goodbye yes this is networking and networking this well let's talk about networking um I think for one thing I I do want to
Speaker A
reiterate what Ursula said I think a lot of non-drinkers are intimidated by the name bar conon or the knowledge that lots of people are getting together and drinking and networking that might leave you out I could be wrong I am not the
Speaker A
non-drinker but I have never seen a non-drinker get crap for not drinking it's like John John scy famously does not drink and he and he's always at the bar with people with a A you know a whatever horrible thing it is he drinks
Speaker A
Co yes that's not that horrible but yeah yeah and so he um yeah so so really you do not need to drink to do Baron but it is prime networking networking area I felt I don't know if it was the pandemic or
Speaker A
what but I felt awkward networking this time like I I had a a sit down with an old a person I used to work with who you know I may work with in the future but we did not
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get to that we just kind of sat down and talked and I'm like am I supposed to bring something up am I supposed to talk about what I'm working on am I supposed to talk about how I'm out of contract or
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am I just supposed to be sit here and be cool which I'm not being cool because I'm sitting here thinking about this incessantly it uh I think what you're supposed to do uh I have no idea what you're supposed to do I do what I do but
Speaker A
I am you know it was the only reason I know this is networking is because years ago you said to me she like this is networking you are I I said I don't know how to network what does it even involve and you were like
Speaker A
you are networking at this exact moment networking is occurring uh I think we were at a a party or something yeah uh but uh networking is just you go you hang out you meet people you talk to them you like each other or
Speaker A
you don't and they just remember that you exist yeah and later on if yeah yeah remembering someone exist you you don't think how important that would be but I remember um so I got my start doing role playing games and I did some I did
Speaker A
mainly worked with white wolf I did some you know contract stuff for mage and vampire and um then I did some contract work on the warcraft book and then the World of Warcraft book if that tells you how long ago it was and so I I was
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working pretty steadily it did not make money I was paid 2 cents a word and I was paid after publication so it it was not lucrative but it gave me a lot of experience that I kind of value I
Speaker A
learned that one should not use the word chowed on edit notes um but the uh the thing was I stopped and I can't remember why it might have been I was trying picking two cents a word well no no it was yeah possibly two
Speaker A
cents a word but it was also I think I was just focusing on something else like I wasn't getting any other writing jobs but anyway I stepped away for a little while and like a year or two later I
Speaker A
contacted my author my my my editor and I'm like hey don't suppose you have any World of Warcraft work for me and he said well I would like to hire people who play the game and I'm like what the [ __ ] I I I play the game I
Speaker A
wrote for you and I had gone out of his memory I did not reminded him I was there and uh I don't even remember where we went after that I think I said um yes I do play and I have been playing and I
Speaker A
think he still said he didn't have anything for me or he lied but it was really just I just remembered that and realizing yeah reminding people you exist is a thing in networking which you can just do by saying hi um yeah and
Speaker A
sometimes you will be there and you know uh uh you run into an editor and they look at you blankly and then they're like oh my God wait do you have I was going to send you an invite do you have
Speaker A
any stories about this I have an anthology I'm trying to F that's happened to me like twice yeah and it's uh that is the sort of thing will get from being present in person but it must be said you have to have something of a
Speaker A
presence already for that to work it's uh you you can't go in uh I could not have gone in 10 years ago and had that experience because no one would know who I was right whereas but if you show up
Speaker A
and people know who you are yeah uh to start out though just meeting people asking about their work saying you enjoy either the author's work or or the editor know who they've published and say you've enjoyed that work they love
Speaker A
that and um uh yeah and then you're just like that that person who's wants to be a writer or is submitting right now and they were nice and then you can say when you submit hey we met at this Con we we
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chatted about hockey I don't know and um you know so you you won't get a offer for a project right away and if you do please tell me and tell me what you did uh but you know that just gets
Speaker A
to know people this is like a slow drip thing networking is and it sucks because when you look back on how long it's taken me to Network all as much as I have it's it's I don't want to tell
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somebody so in 10 years you'll be golden but but you got to start somewhere and the thing about the thing about passing time that blew my mind once was well those 10 years are going to pass either way so you might as well do the thing to
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get you to the point where you're you're doing stuff and we will point out this is also very hard if you're an introvert like I am not a a person inherently who goes to parties uh I I have gotten good
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at it because uh it kept happening but it is not like you know I am not like Yay I'm going to take a weekend and go hang out at the bar with total strangers that is not a thing that I would have
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ever enjoyed doing the that over the years as this goes on you meet people and you know people and then it's not like I am going to a bar to network and further my career it's hey so and so I'm at the bar
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come hang out and yes so it it it is a much more organic and less calculated process than maybe it sounds yeah uh but uh yeah and sometimes you know things just happen I had always admired Ellen dat's uh books and we were both guests
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at the same convention and wound up hanging out at the bar a lot uh and that was great and we had a lovely discussion and then went to dinner and that was also great and like you know I'm not saying that
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we're best friends and she'd let me crash on her couch but she's like yes let me send you the thing I had the thing I will send you a thing once I get out from under this pile of other
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things it's sometimes it's just you know also being online does bleed over to this yeah like there were the first world Con in London I did I was like I know nobody and uh like a lot of people
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who are like I know you from Twitter I remember you hanging out with tour editors in 2013 was London in 2013 yes Jesus yeah they because I knew them online I didn't know why they wanted to hang out because you know I just
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happened to know them online they're like let's hang out and so we did and we chatted and it's not like they offered me a book deal or something right but we hung out and then you know years later
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they did offer me a book deal as it happened but uh um let's see intell game says I struggle with that networking and feeling of being unknown is just a lot to try and overcome and Jasmine says networking I hope gets easier the more
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you do it um it does very much so the thing is this is why I I say make a plan because like even if you have to like look at like look around the bar and see who's there and then go off by yourself
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and write something down in a notebook you could be like I want to talk to this person and I don't know how so I'm going to people love to talk about themselves so all you have to do is go up and say
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hi I loved your latest book or your latest book that you put out with this author or that author you represent what's next or or the the uh the audio book that you recorded I thought you did a great job I'm only
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saying that because I saw Mary Robin at Cole in the bar was like oh my God and she was like let me tell you how much I love your books I'm like let me tell you how much I love the job you did on the
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audio book and yeah and we gushed at each other this is this is eventually what happens is that it gets much easier over time because you know the people and then networking becomes not you know I am meeting people but I am meeting my
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friends and my friends May introduce me to other people yeah uh T game ask a very good question um any thoughts on non- Twitter presence for making yourselves known I know Twitter is kind of the central Hub but also that
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particular dumpster fire yes I am I off Twitter completely now yeah I haven't used it at all I and it's sad because I had 14,000 followers and that was my largest 60 I know that was my largest um
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my largest audience and I'm still not sure but I think really it if you're networking you it's kind of like it doesn't matter how large your reach is it matters how pinpointed your reach is I mean if you just know me or Ursula and
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you could come up to a set a bar you could say hey I'd really like to meet that editor I'd be like sure let's go meet the editor and I can introduce you it's it's this is something you can do
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by a little bit more pinpoint n networking than um you know knowing you have thousands and thousands of followers but losing that megaphone I believe yes that sucked a lot but you it really did I really can't um yeah I don't know if there is a a uh
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I don't think anything has risen to take its place blue sky is the closest yeah blue sky is what I'm on all the time now uh I think threads maybe uh but I do not I literally do not know
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where the editors are or whoever you that like uh you got enough why don't you ask them uh oh I guess I could do that yeah you could all right I'll shoot an email next time and be like where are y'all hanging
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out these days yeah and maybe they aren't you know they some people aren't that into social media some of them are Instagram and just posting pictures of their cats yeah so yeah I there was a definite uh uh the the ecosystem has
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been has suffered the loss of a keystone species and we are still shaking out who goes extinct yeah yeah um malarian says with regards to networking I sort of treat the way Thrill Seekers and Adrenaline Junkies look at parachuting
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sometimes you just have to jump out of a plane that is absolutely true and also because I have a lot of rejection sensitivity issues um again you don't know what other people are dealing with and you may get your
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nerve up to go talk to somebody and they may bluntly shoot you down because they're dealing with something else I I I won't say who but I was really excited this is like several years ago I was really excited to meet an author we
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talked online and I'm like I'm going to be at that con I'm going to go be brave and meet that author and I went up and introduced myself and he looked me in the face and said that he was having a
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crisis because his spouse could not get the food she needed and he left and I'm like okay I that's legit and you know I just it wasn't about me it definitely wasn't about me but it was like a splash of cold water
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but I survived and we still talk now but it's like yeah it's it's it's scary putting yourself out there and I'm not gonna lie and say it's gonna be you know roses and daffodils every time but you know you'll
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live and the other thing is I will point out that uh you don't necessarily have to go to consen network if it terrifies you and you're bad at it it will not like this is not a death Nowell for your
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career uh Neil Stevenson is famously a Hermit and has written some brilliant books and has ended fewer brilliant books uh look I'm sorry the man was given a finite amount of endings in his life he used them up in zodiac and now the books
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just kind of stop uh and uh yeah I I actually say that because he's a Hermit and doesn't watch this on social media yeah um um I'm gonna do that thing that I find really difficult and disagree with you and say I think I hate to say
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it because I know it's not what the introverts want to hear but I think you kind of have to do it because I thought you about Neil Stevenson's endings no no oh no no you're absolutely right about that I'm more thinking of
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um the fact that he was already established before any of this Social Media stuff happened I think I remember chin mavil saying he thinks he's the last author who was able to build a career before you had to think
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about marketing yourself online and so but we're talking about online here like you do have to be online to a large extent these days but you do not have to go in person to a con and hang out yeah
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it is not a death Nell for your career you can make up for it in many ways like being Charming on whatever social media Network people are on you're right you're right I was all proud of myself for being brave and disagree no you
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should be proud of yourself for being brave and disagreeing you you are right that that you cannot be a Hermit anymore yeah but uh or rather you can be a Hermit but you have to have be a Hermit
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with an internet connection yes absolutely um let's see we got more discussion I'm old Jasmine's old school and uses Facebook and Instagram uh space valkyri is here everyone should follow space Valkyries I feel spy uh Tik Tok Instagram definitely became the big ones
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which is not great for me as I struggle with video format uh I know you struggle me both I know you struggle space Valkyries but you do good job so it's it's I can't tell you that you know it's
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fine because you do a good job because I know internally you're struggling cuz it's scary but I just want to say that what you do produce is is good I've enjoyed it I've thought like wow the lighting and you know you look cute and
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how'd you do that it's all sounds good it looks good and you're entertaining and those are like the three things you need um let's see I'm a rebel and post groups of pics on Instagram Jasmine that's hardcore wow um Fight the Power
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Man yes yes I I am finding it interesting how Instagram is more reals and less actual pictures which makes me worry about my own because i' I have I struggle taking pictures so I even struggle more with the uh I just post
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pictures of bugs yes so like if no one would know I was a writer from my Instagram yeah I was going to say speaking of bugs but it's not a good segue because you talked about [ __ ] C
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cucumbers but show everybody your Hugo Ursula uh okay hang on a sec we probably should have led with that uh Ursula one best Nolla Nolla right yeah yeah best Nolla Hugo at uh worldcon and Her speech was about
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cucumbers and she got to go onto the stage in front of everybody in science fiction and make her speech mentioning butt teeth nice cucumbers do have butt teeth yes I know I know you got to say butt teeth in front of the the the rising
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stars of Science Fiction butt teeth yep yep thank you everyone who voted and uh it's pretty butt teeth [Music] [Laughter] thank you everyone who voted and butt teeth yep yeah ursul speeches are always amazing I'm thinking Some people may not
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even read her stuff they just vote for her in hopes that she'll get on stage and tell them something interesting well the the I don't know if you can hear me when I'm all the way over here but uh the the thing is by the
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time you get to me or my categories in a Hugo ceremony there are already someone has cried everyone has thanked people uh someone has mentioned whatever political thing is Big possibly more than one person all yeah all that happen there
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have been heartfelt someone's been angry you know it's oh yeah yeah it's time you get to me like we have run the GT and people are getting a little little uh uh not burnt but uh ready for the free lne
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at the Afterparty yeah and so I I am pallet cleanser like I'm funny you learn weird it's completely different than what you're listening to and then the next people I I feel land harder because it's like in a horror
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movie you know you can ratchet up the tension as much as you want and then but you have to like see the cat and the scary music has to stop so that the next thing is actually scary I am the I am
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seeing the cat and the scary music stopping okay so this is our next our next craft book seeing the cat instead of saving the cat yes a book I've never read it's pretty good I like it is it
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good I like isn't that more about screenplays yeah it is more about screenplays but the another writer has uh written one about the novel and it it works for me I know some people don't like it because they say it's formulaic
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but uh you know I I'm I'm I'm of the opinion that um there is a basic recipe for cake and a basic plan for a building and you can do all sorts of amazing things within those parameters but the
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parameters are kind of important and so I appreciate the the the view of fiction that says you know let's follow this parameters stuff these parameters um there's also something to be said about having to know what the rules are before
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you start breaking them and being you know uh it is it is good to do at least one thing within the the uh the established formula just to be like okay I understand how this works and why it's
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here instead of immediately jumping to like if you get a recipe F you follow the recipe the first time yeah after that you can change as much as you want but if you follow the recipe the first time you get the recipe
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otherwise you know sometimes you wind up with like the people leaving comments going I don't really eat this so I substituted soy for flour and I didn't have this in the house so I used uh Capers instead of cinnamon it was
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terrible two out of 10 it's like what you didn't what what the hell yeah this was terrible it wasn't sweet enough I cut the sugar in half yeah yeah I expected it to be fluffier it you used a
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block of tofu yeah in in place of eggs yeah um let's see lemonly Artistry says nothing is helping me wrap my head around long form fiction I think it's my flavor of the tism I can't seem to write more than 5,000
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words currently using the Kindle Vella platform to use its episodic nature and it is at the very least fun I don't know about the Kindle platform it sounds like a episodic Kindle release basically it's a how you do a
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oh okay on Amazon uh and if you found something that works for you that's great yeah do that like there isn't a thing you are supposed to be doing if that is working then more power to you yeah on a
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broader note if you're having trouble thinking like of large plots first um fanfiction is totally legit it's like fanic gives you training wheels to try out things that you're kind of afraid to I mean if you're worried about character
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stuff then you can i' say it's less training wheels and more like a net okay because training wheels implies that that graduating to publish fiction is or whatever is inherently more mature and I think that uh uh that there that
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fanfiction is very mature on its own and in many well often very very mature but uh like you know it's more like there's a safety net that uh yeah yeah so um also consider the fact that um we if you can't figure out a major a
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a larger plot idea then you can you're thinking too small like like read short stories and read longer works like academically and see what did they put into the short story story like how big was the conflict how many characters
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were there and then go to one of your favorite novels and say okay what did they put in this novel it's going to be much larger and with more characters unless it's an attempt at something or Jack London and then it's an outlier but
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um you know you're just you need to think of larger stories and you know at the very least copy someone's framework and you know you don't have to sell everything you write so when you're practicing writing longer works take a framework of
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your favorite book and you know scrub out the book's characters and put yours in those in the same spaces or you can do it with a fairy tale do a fairy tale retelling and uh voila it is perfectly
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legit and people will applaud you for your retelling this right or uh old pulp and then it's pasti that's right or uh public domain it's not it's not fanfiction public domain yeah then it's pases yeah yeah the uh uh and the thing is that that
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writing long form the the only inherent benefit of it is that uh you get a lot more money for it yes and there's a bigger audience uh if you have an audience for small work then go for it
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uh there's a author who writes uh military sci-fi who itself self-published and I love his work and each book is not a coherent narrative from end to end they are basically shorts about uh recurring characters or uh you know what one group in somewhere
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is doing and uh so even though there is sort of an overarching metaplot in terms of what is happening in the universe in the course of this this war or whatever you might get a short story or about uh
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you know a clone over here who is part of a weird cloning system or you have uh you know a somebody in a refugee camp or you have you know whoever and so it is a bunch of shorts stitched together and I
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believe they are in fact Reddit posts that he collects and I love them and he really needs a copy editor so ral's bloodthorn if you're listening I can hook you up with some people um I was talking about I I can't
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remember no wait I do remember because I had an interview right before this recording and I talked about this there but um doing something smaller based on something larger um you could do like uh I've been I did one piece of balers gate
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fanfic um actually for Cipher te was it about the Mind flare no it was not about the Mind flare it was about uh the the the dog with the bow biscotti uh hanging out with the uh Dragon Kin clerk
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at the weapons Smith who's just so happy and I thought those two Happy People needed to be together and go have a very low stakes Adventure while balers Gates burning around them and it just made me so happy and then my next sorry go on no
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but well my next thing is I'm look you know going through and um if you've played Skyrim you know but I feel like um I feel like balers gate has actually surpassed Skyrim as having the most useless [ __ ] you can that you can uh uh
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loot but I I want to write a story about like a health inspector who whose goal it is to teach people to not store your cheese in a barrel underground and I mean that's not that bad a place to store cheese actually
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cheese like ages and caves and whatnot and root cell thing I'm it's not working in balder's gate because all you find is crappy cheese if it was working I would say yes but because underground is where like all the the the medical cesspools
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and the ball worshippers can't imagine that place smells good well no you don't want to put cheese there but also you know constant temperature once you get down low enough which is why cheese is often aged in caves but yes okay uh uh
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yes a health inspector in balers gate the thing is that it occurred to me that we may be conflating big and high stakes like or long and high stakes like you can write a perfectly long story about something
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very low stakes and I have done it I wrote a romance where the stakes were that a woman the entire story can be summed up on woman needs a lawyer to deal with her relatives it's over a 100,000 words and it's one of my
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favorite books I've ever written it's called sword heart there's a romance there's a a soul and a sword there's a lot of stuff but it's it is fundamentally a very low stake story The World Is Not at stake and that's okay
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you do not every story does not have to be about the world uh like uh look at M aaki movies uh yes he did the big princess monoke you know huge God battling things he also did Kiki's Delivery Service which is basically uh a
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courier a young Courier deals with burnout at her first job and my neighbor tooro which is girls take corn to mom who has movie disease yes or or and even something like Pono where big things happen it's basically kid finds a weird goldfish
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during a flood and hate upon you know hated P so much grown on me I I I I I it is grown on me I was very disappointed at first I was like because I was expecting Spirited Away and Spirited Away is my
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favorite movie of all time and but uh Pono uh it's good for what it is it's just we were expecting something different I think a little magical girl floods the world for a crush floods the world because she has on a
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six-year-old wait was it her that flooded the world or was it the uh I I I didn't get the impression she did it deliberately no but still I I mean you can't expect a six-year-old to know that she can flood the world and she
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shouldn't and also I think she was more like five I'm really not sure where this argument's going but uh I the thing in Pono that I have referenced many times in discussions about ya is that there is is a scene where there are two five or
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six uh year olds in a small boat one of which is a goldfish and there is a huge natural disaster and they're puttering along in their boat they see a boat full of adults and the adults are like hey come
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on board the kids like no I gotta keep going gotta find Mom and the are all like great have fun I'm like every one of you needs like a child protective services needs to come have a word with all of you but yes
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yeah I understand there may be cultural differences and also you have to get the parents out of the way to have an adventure in a story but still that yes you're you're 10 in in early Pokemon games and your mom gives you like a
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lunch boox and says all right go travel the the world and find dangerous monsters and we are chatting up during an ad break and I'm sorry for that uh it's okay I don't mind you're not bothered by the
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ad oh yeah that's probably right yes um yeah the the stakes are not important uh thank you is the ad break over the ad break is over the stakes s the stakes are not important necessarily but I'm more talking about
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like well I guess I guess I'm talking about taking something large and and writing something small from it and the person was talking about writing something larger but um you know another safety net for writing is is taking something small from something
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large and and writing fanfic about it and the stakes you know could matter might not matter you could write a very devastating story about you know the guy wants to put explosives in the teddy bears and he could have a whole short
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story about him um you I could write a short story if I were so inclined about a cheesemonger Who sees the talking wheel of cheese and is like it is like meeting his God and when it vanishes he
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is bereft and he goes and founds a cult you just probably made a lot of money no it'd be fanfit because it was balers gate you turn into a cheese I'm pretty sure you can file off those uh
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those those numbers really specific serial number I don't know well anyway I well I mean you're in Dragon Age Inquisition you can get a uh a sword or not a sword obviously you get the sword with the banana on it or the shield of
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cheese yeah yeah yeah yeah just think about it think about it and take me out to Sushi when you get your advance I I if if I do make that much money I will fly you to New Mexico and
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we can have sushi oh excellent do you want sushi in New Mexico I guess they could fly it in well I I we will actually probably be coming back here fairly regularly because parents live here yeah so yes and also my oncologist
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is here and you know oh well yeah and Kevin's tattoo artist so yeah but you're not not moving next week right no no this fall uh uh yeah we're we're we haven't bought a house yet or anything um I tried to start
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packing and then I realized that I should hire professional Packers for this because yes it took me an hour and I hadn't unloaded a single cax bookcase from yeah yeah yeah um so we've talked about a lot of things do you want to
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touch on CIFA or wait until Jason Sanford stuff comes out Jason Sanford stuff Jason Sanford is uh fan writer uh who does a lot of uh investigative stuff oh he's he I follow him on JRE Grapevine and um he says he's going to do a a
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full take on what's going on with CA later and then before that file 770 posted their take on it which is what I read last night oh I've not read any takes all I heard was that a bunch of
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people are like I'm that it was like a perfect storm of people going I have a lot of [ __ ] to deal with right now and I can't do this yeah yeah it turns out that someone who worked with CFA asked for
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accessibility considerations and did not get it and then gave their like gave a huge amount of notice like like I'm leaving but I'm leaving in quite some time and then they cut off her cut off their email and and kicked them out of
Speaker A
Discord and no one really knows what's going on and more people have quit and it's just kind of weird like I respect when you know you really do need to leave because of your family but an awful lot of people have left so it's
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it's and there's apparently a lot of ndas keeping people from talking so it's like that's very weird our Professional Organization is kind of flailing yeah it's weird that's odd and I have all I heard was that yeah that
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someone sending a notes saying I really got to step down because I'm now a full-time carer for my mom and then another one going I also have to step down because my husband uh just had a medical emergency and like these are
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legit reasons you have to step down this is a big deal you know yeah it's it's fine it's so but apparently there's more I don't know yeah we'll find out more as it happens I suppose yes and so yeah
Speaker A
that's not the getting mad thing that's just the what's what's happening to my Professional Organization uh we did have a uh Anonymous gift give a subscription so thank you for that enjoy your subscription kkim enjoy your uh lack of
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ads um I just had a gift delivered actually oh what' you get uh well there's a sign on it or my label on it says this package contains alcohol adult signature required and there's a gift message is under shipping
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label so I think one of my Publishers probably tour sent me wine for winning the thing wow they've been they've been really nice about that like I have worked with numerous Publishers and uh uh some of them s congratulatory emails
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Tor just sends me chocolate and booze wow like and and I'm like dude this is uh this is pretty sweet I uh I I recommend that highly if you're trying to maintain author loyalty yeah I don't think orbit sent me anything when I got
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nominated for the stuff well they should have I know uh Jasmine asked Ursula perhaps I missed it did the Corgi thorgi graphic novel ever come out or was it overcome by events uh it no it's uh uh it exists you
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have to subscribe to Liz boris's uh patreon uh uh lizard Beth and it's all there uh this is beo Corgi this is a short story about uh it's basically Beowolf with a corgie and it was illustrated by my good friend Liz uh and
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I wrote the story uh it's very charming and you should go throw money at her and read it uh it's uh because she is a better artist than I will ever be great um I'll put a link to the show notes in
Speaker A
the show notes um if anybody can find that it's finished now and we should really like figure out if someone wants to publish it like but uh there's been a lot going on yeah there has been um I
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should always mention remember that uh I have a book coming out this year I didn't think I was but uh the affilia network is was picked up by uh Ursula's small press friends and that will be out in noela form this fall I'm not sure the
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actual date but it'll be out soon so I'm looking forward to that um and this is networking again I dragged you to a room party with guys from fur planet and Argyle and we're like this is my friend
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merch he writes brilliant stuff a and then we drank and had pizza and I believe and one of the editors was like why just hook it to my veins at you so it's taken me a while to actually get
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something but yes yes yeah I think that party was like five years ago but uh that's fine life is you know um longterm planning yes space Valkyrie says so get a buddy will drag you into Network and got it I did that with you at discon
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space Valkyries that's exactly what I did you were there just be careful who the buddy is because sometimes they will drag you to meet Joe Hill in a way you don't want them to maybe maybe not who knows who can
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say also I don't know if you remembered because you were extremely inebriated but uh are we talking about Dublin no uh yes just recently the uh uh my uh book uh thorad navela was nominated for a world fantasy award I'm
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not going but Mur is going and agreed to be my accept that that I agreed to and you agreed you suggested it you were I was like I was for speech and you were like hyena genitals this time let's do
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it and I was like I'm not gonna hold her to that that you that is exactly what you said you said I'm going to hold you to that I was not that inated I remember well sbet comes to us all I won't hold
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you to it um any funny stories about world Con well there was that one um I had a lot of fun doing a sex and love panel with uh Cipher of tier and um saman Samantha bayart that was a lot of
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fun I have heard uh rumors that a woman wearing a great hat uh told Dave mccardy the gentleman who [ __ ] the hugos last year uh exactly where he could go and what he could do on the way yep no one
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knows who that is no one no one like a lot of people say they witnessed it but no one knew who the woman with the hat was well two people specifically say they witnessed it that I believe plus
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there were a lot of people in the restaurant who might have witnessed it and could have said something as well I don't know maybe yes but yeah apparently Was a Good Hat though yeah and that was that was funny
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yeah man yes wait that guy actually showed his face yes he did I think he has friends still he held a uh uh he was at a hotel right across the parking lot uh announcing that you know come to this
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party for such and such for the changdu people and it so and so and I did not know he was going to be standing in the lobby when I went for din the Hat was there while I was
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elsewhere I do find it interesting that you and I discussed um which is worse to step on a Lego or a four-sided die and you told me that Lego just saying I wish you'd step on a Lego is does flow better
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than like the D4 yes it's it's all about the flow right and and the woman in the did say Lego I noticed that yes yes well clearly she agreed with me about flow clearly absolutely any other fun stories
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I'm um I'm drawing a blank because I had a great time there uh uh I uh uh there was a woman doing uh uh things where she would hand paint uh the edges of hard covers yeah and uh apparently she had a copy of
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nettle and Bone and Kevin went over and was like I hear you have a copy nle and Bone she and she said nope it's sold you got to get here a lot sooner then and uh Kevin was like that's a shame I'm
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teeking fish your husband and she freaked out and uh I went over later and was like I hear do you have pictures and she did and it was lovely aw so yes she was very nice that's very that's
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honestly name recognition the the best thing for it is that is things like that you can your word carries outsized weight and you can be like your stuff is great and people believe you indeed um well we are like at four we've
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gone over an hour is there anything else you would like to discuss or bring up I think we have covered probably not that much but it took us this long so we are out of of practice um we are yes
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send us questions we're good with questions yes send questions to Mighty Murr gmail.com um or you can show up in the chat on twitch.tv/ Mighty and uh 3 pm eastern time every other Monday and we could do it this Monday and we're out of
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town next Monday the following I don't know how tired you'll be from your grand house hunt in Albuquerque but I don't know if we'll be back by 3 I don't know when we're flying out actually okay we're not sure what's going to happen in
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two weeks but we we were attempt to get on this schedule oh and thank you for the resub Jasmine been subscribed for 40 months wow thank you for the support that's great um I will be back tomorrow I'm
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going to try to fit in a uh solo RPG stream I have bought more solo RPGs I really got to [ __ ] do them I got to actually put them on the stream and and write them and stuff so
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um but yeah I you can find me at myers.com Mighty M on most social networks and um I have a book it's called chaos terminal it's the most recent book in the mids solar murders you should read it they're really fun and good and smart
Speaker A
thank you and uh Ursula tell us where you are and what you do uh you can find almost everything at red wbat studio.com although it occurs to me I have not updated with the latest book that came out a book just came out uh like two
Speaker A
weeks ago called a sorcer comes to call it is dark fantasy uh like uh which I think now is just what we're calling Horror in a secondary world I I'm I'm not really sure what uh what what the
Speaker A
the you know definition is anymore uh but it's fun and uh uh it's yeah it's out and I'm on Blue Sky as T Kingfisher ah yes you are you you you have the double name yes I am mostly te
Speaker A
King Fisher and these days so uh yeah you can find me there awesome this podcast was produced under creative comment attribution non-commercial no derivatives license music provided by divos spice divos spice.com ditch diggers this is a free podcast brought to you by the kindness
Speaker A
of our patrons if you would like to also be kind and a patron go to patreon.com slm Mighty mrr
Topics:Mur LaffertyUrsula VernonWorldcon 2024writing career adviceDitch Diggers podcastBubonic Conscience fiction conventionsremote worksolar powercreative community
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