[DD] Ursula Vernon Takes Over- New Beginnings and No More Cancer!

Ditch Diggers season 10, episode zero. Ditch Diggers appear, and ain't no one here with some not-so-nice advice for your writing career. To be clear, no punches will be pulled, but the punch may be [expletive] how they like before.

they get on the m to my left we got the mighty mer laugh and if I piss her off believe me she'll come after me and her co-host Ur on the right yes she's furniture aside a slime mold speech

They get on the mic. To my left, we got the mighty Mer Laugh, and if I piss her off, believe me, she'll come after me and her co-host. You're on the right. Yes, she's furniture aside, a slime mold speech.

ditch [Music] diggers ditch diggers and I don't even know if we just played theme song or not because uh while dvo spice has offered to re record us a theme song for us uh I haven't asked him to do that yet which I

Tonight, so settle in, buckle in. It's Bo time to meddle in a way to make your writer shut up. It's hard work, but the perk is that it's fun and exciting. Facebook will still be there when you're done writing.

I know okay I will let him know but yeah ditch diggers is back Ursula Vernon is taking over uh from Matt Wallace with Matt's blessing and Ursula Vernon also known as T king fisher friend of show she's been a

Ditch [Music] Diggers, Ditch Diggers. And I don't even know if we just played the theme song or not because, uh, while DVO Spice has offered to re-record us a theme song for us, uh, I haven't asked him to do that yet, which I probably should do. But we will be getting a theme song that features Ursula instead of Matt.

back thank you Ursula how are you doing I'm doing pretty good uh to to punt the elephant in the room in case anyone was still worried about the elephant I don't have cancer anymore it's all gone we're all good uh I am

Um, and if it's easier for him to rhyme like Kingfisher, he should feel free to, too, because Ursula is not the easiest word to rhyme.

of my life but I'm good I'm yeah no more cancer yes and working on building up the stamina because uh uh that is a lot of of physical abuse to lay on your body and uh it's it's annoying that I

I know. Okay, I will let him know. But yeah, Ditch Diggers is back. Ursula Vernon is taking over, uh, from Matt Wallace with Matt's blessing. And Ursula Vernon, also known as T. Kingfisher, friend of the show, she's been a co-host several times, but I'm just really glad that, you know, that moment in the mineral whirlpool on that boat we were on, I said, want to help out with Ditch Diggers? And she said yes. So, uh, was very glad to be bringing it back. Thank you, Ursula. How are you doing?

slowly poisoning their spouse and it's just chemo and they're supposed to have it so but I do want to say that you know URS I don't think there is a elephant in your room because you're pretty much open to

I'm doing pretty good. Uh, to punt the elephant in the room, in case anyone was still worried about the elephant, I don't have cancer anymore. It's all gone. We're all good. Uh, I am through with all of the treatments and everything. So basically, uh, the only thing that happens now is I get way more checkups than I should, and I'm on a couple of pills that I get to be on for the rest of my life, but I'm good.

to hide exactly um so yeah if you are new um or you need to be reminded ditch diggers is a show to that treats writing and that's any kind of writing really as uh a job because if you want to make

I'm, yeah, no more cancer.

by word people word people who word um but that's when I need to make a deadline I have to remember I have to go to work and just like people who dig ditches people who do surgery but surgery diggers or surgery Cutters was

Yes, and working on building up the stamina because, uh, that is a lot of physical abuse to lay on your body, and, uh, it's annoying that I genuinely am not as young as I used to be, and I do not bounce back immediately from like eight months of poison.

can't afford writer's block and so we talk about uh the business we talk about agents and editors and copy editors and uh we're going to talk a little bit about Awards and social media today um and backing up so

Yeah.

right exactly so um I am working on my uh yeah the third book in my mids solar murders uh series called uh infinite archive I'm working on edits for that I hate editing but as I just said introducing the show it's part of the

Yeah, I just thought it'd be really funny to do a murder mystery where you find out that someone is slowly poisoning their spouse, and it's just chemo, and they're supposed to have it. So, but I do want to say that, you know, URS, I don't think there is an elephant in your room because you're pretty much open to talk about anything.

Snow White was the least interesting character and the whole thing so she has been relegated to a very minor position and it's mostly about mirrors and poisons and uh it is it is uh I'm enjoying it and the writing is

Yeah, pretty much. There's, I mean, anything. The only things I think I wouldn't want to talk about are like stuff that involves other people that might be their private thing, but yeah, for me, I'm like, yeah, what? I got nothing to hide.

third uh swor Soldier Nolla which I uh got an extension on because cancer okay only part of it was cancer some of it was cancer but a lot of it was that I actually I didn't so much write myself

Exactly. Um, so yeah, if you are new, um, or you need to be reminded, Ditch Diggers is a show that treats writing, and that's any kind of writing really, as a job because if you want to make money, you have to think about it like a job. And I know there's a lot of people who want to talk about the art and the craft, and they think that what I just said is the nastiest thing I ever spoken.

pages on the biology of the monster uh but it uh the the narrator and main character Alex would not so it's a uh uh I have to do some reshuffling mentally and I'm just about at the point where I

By word people, word people who word.

know how you're thinking you're not blaming it on the cancer but your body dealt with a lot of crap you know it did it did yes you got to remember that you know the the the body and the hormones

Um, but that's when I need to make a deadline, I have to remember I have to go to work, and just like people who dig ditches, people who do surgery, but surgery diggers or surgery cutters was not quite as, uh, literal. That's not the same ring to it.

I I tried to tell myself that earlier this morning when I missed a smaller deadline but anyway um so one thing I wanted to talk about was just it just it's funny on a level of you have to laugh or else she'll

Yeah. So, um, yes, craft is important. Art is important, but if you actually want to make a living with your writing, you have to remember that you can't afford writer's block. And so we talk about the business. We talk about agents and editors and copy editors, and, uh, we're going to talk a little bit about awards and social media today.

October um we don't need to go into a long description but but do you want to tell what happened but overall not not the you personally part but uh it turned out that uh everything seemed to be fairly

Um, and backing up, so, um, it is now, this is the, there are lots of great podcasts out there for craft. There are tons. You should go listen to them. It is very important. It is critical. It is not what this is about.

the administrator had pulled a lot of shenanigans a very bad Shenanigans the American administrator right the American administrator yes this was and part of the problem is this was set in uh the uh uh Hugo ceremony itself was

Right.

uh American administrator just unilaterally kicked a bunch of people off the ballot and disallowed a lot of Chinese votes because he wanted to yeah which meant that a lot of people did not get nominated who should have been

Exactly. So, um, I am working on my, uh, yeah, the third book in my Midsolar Murders, uh, series called Infinite Archive. I'm working on edits for that. I hate editing, but as I just said introducing the show, it's part of the job, so I have to do it.

didn't awward you weren't on the you wouldn't have been on the ballot I wouldn't have even been on the ballot wow so what were you like sixth or seventh or I think I was seventh wow I think I was uh yeah and then it would

Um, you want to say anything you're working on?

off uh is it a Chinese book or oh yeah it was it was four Chinese books that got uh uh okay five Chinese four Chinese books and uh Babel by RF CL got knocked off um so here's the deal um I'm

Oh, yeah. I am currently working on a dark fantasy retelling of Snow White, or at least it started out that way, but, uh, honestly, Snow White was the least interesting character in the whole thing, so she has been relegated to a very minor position, and it's mostly about mirrors and poisons, and, uh, it is, it is, uh, I'm enjoying it, and the writing is going well. I, I can sit down and knock out a thousand words generally without a problem. This is my cat walking in front of the screen, and, uh, so that's going well. I am also, frankly, overdue on the third, uh, Swor Soldier Nolla, which I, uh, got an extension on because cancer. Okay, only part of it was cancer, some of it was cancer, but a lot of it was that I actually, I didn't so much write myself into as a corner, but I got stuck on and realized I had done some stuff wrong and was like, okay, I have overexplained the monster because I thought the monster was really interesting, but, and yes, readers would love to sit through three pages on the biology of the monster, uh, but it, uh, the narrator and main character Alex would not. So it's a, uh, uh, I have to do some reshuffling mentally, and I'm just about at the point where I can handle it again, and fortunately, I was able to get an extension on it because they really want the dark fantasy novel next, so it's all working out.

give it back or give it to RF kuang or something what would be step one if you were to think I don't deserve this uh well the only step that I came up with was being on social media going

Yeah, also you had cancer, which I believe could have affected like, you know, how you're thinking. You're not blaming it on the cancer, but your body dealt with a lot of crap.

I'm blew in the face that I did not win it and uh it's I am still going to be listed on Wikipedia as the winner with like 10 asteris and because there are like a lot of because the structure of the hugos in

You know, it did. It did. Yes. You got to remember that, you know, the body and the hormones and the mind, they're all connected, so just give, cut yourself some slack, dude.

before there was never a mechanism put into the Constitution to deal with uh what if we uh with rerunning the thing or anything it was like we don't know how to do this there so there is no mechanism currently in place by which

Yeah, but I was going to hand it in in March, and it's May now.

is this is not cool we did not win this uh so and like I mean it's not uh being printed on any of my books or on any copies of NE and Bone which was the book uh and oh okay that that that is one

Yeah, it's still a month that begins with M. It's the same thing.

don't even have a rocket to give back no no they they were broken in transit and then they all went to ironically The House of the hio administrator who screwed everything up who is now Persona NADA in fandom very much and uh so yeah

I, I tried to tell myself that earlier this morning when I missed a smaller deadline, but anyway, um, so one thing I wanted to talk about was just, it just, it's funny on a level of you have to laugh or else you'll cry.

on social media as I am is that there will be people who show up who are like well you should be doing something to fix this and it's like I what tell me I'll do it I would love

Um, I've talked about this on my other podcast, I Should Be Writing, before, but I want to talk about it now again because you're here. Uh, the Hugos happened.

yeah I'm like okay leaving aside the fact that that requires a whole skill set I do not have in administration and everything else um uh we're we're gonna need a a I guess what an audit of the like how do you

Um, oh yes, they did. Last year, they happened to me last October.

own uh math that you were doing but you decided to try to figure out how much money that Hugo got you by looking at sales before and after the ceremony and I believe it was somewhere in the $1,600

Um, we don't need to go into a long description, but do you want to tell what happened? But overall, not the you personally part, but, uh, it turned out that, uh, everything seemed to be fairly normal, and then they released the nomination numbers, and they were not possible.

get you is that you are more likely to stay in print but that was back in the day when staying in print was more difficult because P print on demand didn't exist yeah and it's and the other thing is I

Uh, mathematically, it could not have happened. A lot of people got into it and were like, what the hell is going on? And it eventually came to light that the administrator had pulled a lot of shenanigans, very bad shenanigans.

back list and uh I am lucky my backlist continues to earn out because I have published like four or five books since then but yeah it's uh it's not like you get a sudden new launch yeah yeah yeah

The American administrator, right?

your books to entice new readers it's it's a comic I won't swear that it's not on Amazon but I'm pretty sure it's not on any of the covers yeah and part of that is that like publ there's like five

The American administrator, yes. This was, and part of the problem is this was set in, uh, the Hugo ceremony itself was set in Changdu, China, and so there was a lot of, uh, it varied between concern that the Chinese government was censoring to just outright racism, and so everything got really unpleasant.

book approved easier and I'm just GNA say that Ursula is kind of on fire right now with uh as much as she's putting out and as lauded as her works are um I don't think that I don't think they're going to take

Yeah, and at the end of the day, it, uh, as far as we can tell, the, uh, American administrator just unilaterally kicked a bunch of people off the ballot and disallowed a lot of Chinese votes because he wanted to, yeah, which meant that a lot of people did not get nominated who should have been nominated, and a bunch of people who did get nominated, uh, should have been not nominated, including myself.

the the big thing and and but that's not just from the Huga that's also looking at like sales numbers and whatnot and the Dark Fantasy is clear is selling and is the big seller Argo write more of that and so the only thing we did was

Uh, and I won the big one, the best novel, and should not even have been on the ballot, which is a little awkward.

but you know it's not like they said don't write that thing we bought now write this other thing they were just like no we and and since they have like I think I've sold them like six books or

You didn't award, you weren't on the, you wouldn't have been on the ballot.

nominated again for uh Thorn Hedge for novela yes I just I just got a new bookcase and so I got to clean up all the books on the floor here and I'm so happy and so I have my my premum Mohammad section and

I wouldn't have even been on the ballot.

that glasgo uh who is hosting this year's hugos is being transparent to the point of bending over backwards like they are like they are more transparent than any was has been the minute that the nominees came out they were like

Wow. So what were you, like, sixth or seventh or?

themselves or were disqualified because they were in the wrong year right we've notified all of them in advance we have discussed this you know every they were very very uh very transparent excellent well we're going to have that oh the ad

I think I was seventh.

it was cathartic to do them yeah and I have already heard from at least one person who was like yeah went and got checked out because you posted something and thank you that turned out to be serious so if you have a weird

lump and you have been ignoring it hoping it will go away consider bringing your doctor in on the ignoring it part I say this is someone who would attempt to sleep off a decapitation yeah yeah also keeping up with your uh Health

also important to ditch digging because you can't it's hard to write when you're not oh God yeah and also a a plug for health insurance uh however you can get it because if it was I mean I am doing

great at the moment the books are selling like wildfire I am by my own standards at least wildly successful and I would be bankrupt if Kevin did not you know have Insurance yeah so yeah another thing I wanted to talk about was the uh Google

Drive debacle that meline Ashby reported on this past weekend uh oh yeah Google an author got learned that uh their Google Drive had account had been locked with no access to it and because of uh was it violation of terms and conditions

or something uh it was deemed inappro use and she assumed that inappropriate was because she was an erotica author right but it did come to pass that the um she was also using Google drive to send it out to people we don't knowers

yeah but apparently it was enough to flag her as spam so whether it was because of the spiciness or because of the spamming or something else um I want to talk about backing up because I am I do about

one or one show every year or year and or two years about all the options for backing up because I think it's very important and I have multiple redundancies here and offsite I have stuff I pay for and stuff I don't pay

for Google Drive is one of the places I have suggested backing up your work and now if they could just say in inappropriate without giving you much information and lock your stuff away so you can't get it I can't recommend it

anymore yeah I I suspect given the uh uh the mechanisms involved that probably it was the uh it was being flagged as spam for sending that and I believe it was in the article that uh Google said basically uh you sent so many invites to

Str over a a short period of time that and that is spammer Behavior so the bot Flags it but the problem is that getting a Human Instead of a bot takes a really long time yeah exactly and meanwhile you

may have uh hundreds of thousands of Words which in this case I think it was 200,000 of words 220 something yeah that uh you suddenly no longer have access to and depending on how tight your deadline is uh that could get could be fatal so

so I I know I know the free options are very attractive for obvious reasons but you might want to look into options that are actually cost money because I if you don't spend it now you might it's like

you know it's like estimated taxes if you don't spend it now you may be it you may have something a lot more expensive in the future especially if you lose all your work uh so Ursula with your sisadmin uh spouse I assume you have a

pretty good backup system and I know I'm putting you on the spot here I have Dropbox I pay for drop box it's hooked to the thing uh no I I my assisted men spouse does this all day for a living

and is therefore very very clear that he would prefer not to do it in his off hours and this is a perfectly good system that so it's on my computer it's in Dropbox and uh it is highly unlikely

that both both of those will fail simultaneously so and I think it's there's also an Apple Drive backup thing going on so and it's also on um uh through Dropbox uh some of the things are saved to my iPad now and

again so basically uh he's just like use one of the out of thee boox ones they work great I am not building a custom solution one I would prefer to not be thinking about right yeah drop box and

drop box has work great for me for uh over a decade now I pay them money uh and I use them and there's never been any hiccups I think once upon a time they may have had a uh a security breach

but they have certainly they have never had a we lost everything breach I would not suggest putting it only on drought bux right yeah that's I have um I have redundancy so I have an external hard drive and I have um with

and that's my whole I back up my whole computer that way and then I have uh I pay for Google one I'm probably going to need to make sure that they can't lock me out of anything but that is just

another redundancy I have back Blaze and uh my scrier is tied to Dropbox so scrivener constantly up uploads copies to drop Dropbox for me so that's what word does for me yeah yeah so it's th those are my redundancy so I'm paying

for back blades and I uh I'm paying like three bucks a month for Google one um and you know even if you're thinking okay well I do want to send out invites maybe not so many that will tag me a

Spam but I do want to send some out you know you still can use things like Google drive but don't have don't let all of your stuff live there this is why redundancies are good because if one bot

decides you're inappropriate for this uh this place this is the whole eggs in one basket scenario so I I just beg people please please do backup funner in chat says the tech nerd enemy says 321 rule I don't know the 321 rule for back for

backing up I only know it for conventions yeah me too which is a good segue actually Matt would be proud of us oh yes and uh what three meals um two hours of sleep no I thought it was three

hours of sleep two hour two two meals one shower something like that yes yeah uh three copies primary and two backups two different mediums with one offsite two different mediums do you mean we should always print it out or

like PDF and Doc I'm I'm I'm a little confused at that part um but anyway while while funner uh follows up if possible um I just came back I've actually done a lot of convention type stuff this year

already which is unlike me um you know in the before times but I've done boss cone I was guest of honor at fenc con I went on the Joko Cruise which is pretty much just a con but the hotel's on its

side in the ocean and um then I did uh I just got back from the Savage mil geek Fest in Savage Maryland and then I've got nasfic coming up so I've been really thinking about KH a lot lately yes and I in fact uh have

done quite a few too uh I just got off of the the wombat World Tour which was uh I had Minicon in Minnesota I was home for about 20 hours I went to Australia for two weeks did Supernova con twice

it's a sort of traveling convention so we did it one weekend in Melbourne and then one in Gold Coast did a book tour in with signings in the middle of those two got back had a week off went to

Raven con so I've also been majorly on the con circuit and for the last uh month or so yeah um a foreigner up updates by saying no storage mediums hard drive SD card DVD Etc it's probably the least important part of the rule now

got it so that's that's like cloud and hard drive uh for most of us I I I guess I used to try to do the the thumb drive but um I frankly just forget to do it which is why I like the fact that all of

these are automated oh yeah if I had to uh like remember even to hit a button to upload today's work to Dropbox I would be in trouble but it does automatic thankfully so that's why it was a good solution for

those of us who are forgetful right but uh back to conventions um well you you suggested talking about conventions what do you think we should cover well uh in professional terms I suppose are they worth it or are because

they are a a convention is very different if you are working than if you're a fan it is you are there to either promote your work interact with fans uh sell books depending on what you're doing and it uh there is a

difference if you between working the con and attending the con so if you are a working author and you are like I should go to a con as an author are you is that worth it financially marketing wise whatever

right um if you're looking for like you did with your Hugo for Digger looking at the numbers before the con I sold this and after the con I sold this I don't think it's worth it definitely not um a

while back somebody was saying that that authors in their early career should go to world con to network authors later in their career should go to Dragon Con to meet readers which I thought was interesting but that was like that's an

interesting yeah yeah I uh uh I can think of no worst place to go to talk to another human being than Dragon Con maybe San Diego uh also rough um yeah I I've done both of those cons and uh they're a lot

yeah and it's very hard there's so much going on it's very hard to meet anyone so uh yeah I I don't know if I would suggest them as good uh fan relations cons unless you have I mean it's probably better if you're like a a

celebr or something yeah than if you're you know a Word Slinger maybe if you do Comics I don't know that's a uh uh like on the the Marvel scale yeah couldn't couldn't tell you there yeah um I don't

I don't find I don't look at my career before and after a con in the terms of money but I think they are very useful for networking very useful [Applause] meeing let me just let me just okay we

are muting the Hound sorry Hound so yeah the you never know who you meet in person that will help you in your career 5 10 years down the road you know you can meet authors you can meet agents you

can meet assistant editors who are not acquiring now but may be acquiring in 3 years and may remember seeing you meeting you at a con because you were pleasant to them you know it is my the work I did with I should be writing a

ditch diggers has gotten me to know a lot of authors which has gotten me to meet a lot of people at cons through them and you know that that's always been really useful and helpful so I still say they're definitely worth it

like this past this past weekend uh we didn't have a huge turnout we it was wet and it was a new con so I think that that hurt it I uh did meet somebody who I'd met on the Joko cruise

and between the Joko cruise and now Joko Cruise was mid-march and it is currently early May uh she's already read three of my books and was excited to meet me again um did I have a quantity large quantity of people know but I also got

to touch base with Phil plate who I haven't seen in about a decade and Phil's a friend I I I love him dearly but it also doesn't hurt the fact that I know the bad astronomer and so re

renewing that friendship uh can also be a thing to help me out down the road even if it's just introduced me to someone so I still think networking at a con is invaluable it's honestly uh a lot of

times uh a lot of things a lot of con stuff is I mean I can never tell where networking begins and catching up with friends leaves off like it's I think it's all the same thing it probably is I

I mean so many of us have like lifelong friendships that are lived like an hour at a time at conventions years apart yeah uh so I have done cons that were very that I had interactions that were very networkyoutube

[Music] there might eventually be some uh uh that I was hopefully getting in that person's brain a little and they would remember me later but I have also just you know been like yay I see you again it's you know it's been years to friends

who you know I mean okay maybe we might blurb each other but that's a minor thing um so yeah it's it's hard to say in terms of immediate financial pay off I do not think that uh cons are

like you're you're not going to sell like you're not going to go to a con to make the money to make the house payment or anything yeah it's uh uh which is interesting because when I was an mostly

doing as an artist uh and I would get a dealer table uh some cons I would that would be you know what I live on for or three months afterwards the the big conventions but it's very different uh

as an author I it may be that if you are a self-published or Indie author who is selling direct at uh table sales that conventions can be big I don't know I've never really tried to do that um I did I

did how it works out I did meet a a Indie author at uh Savage Mill who said was basically saying how he built his career and you know he he made his book he got a professional cover he got he made like

a really nice booth at a con and they were getting attention and they were selling books and his wife's like yes book two will be out next year and he said it will and she said yes because we're coming back here next year and

these people aren't going to come by book one again so that's what got him writing book to and he says they do a lot of cons every year and they make good money on it but that feels like another full-time job to me

and um I've talked about this before but I don't for me anyway I don't see a huge benefit of selling books by hand because I want my publisher to um I want my publisher to see those sales so that

they can will get me another book if I have great great luck selling books at a con those are all people who are giving who my publisher doesn't know about so um but I know some people who do want to

sell a cons but I think I think you can do it it's just it requires a lot of hustling and I'm the very thought of it makes me tired oh yeah yeah I uh uh I no longer do dealers table selling art at

cons because I just do not have the I mean hey I have another income Source now but I you know it takes it out of you and I am there are people who love the hustle and the sales pitch I do not

uh and that all that said I uh while it is undoubtedly possible to make money selling books at cons let me tell you a cautionary tale of horror once upon a time I was on a panel about uh

self-publishing and we were uh uh discuss you know we we went through and did our our speech you know how each of us was involved with self-publishing we got to the gentleman on the end who explained that his wife had written a

book and he had decided that it was now the full-time job to promote the book so they sold the house bought an RV put their three kids in it and drove around the country doing a convention every weekend to sell hand sell this book at a

table and did the children get educ I don't know uh I assume they were being homeschooled by the end of it uh like the three of us on the panel who were authors were basically doing the fullbody cringe away while still trying

to look polite thing in absolute horror because I don't do that please don't do that like I went to dinner with Tamara Pierce after that and Tamara Pierce is a very sweet human being and she wanted to slash their tires and call Child

Services like like no this is this is not the way to make money uh if you are thinking about doing this please have someone talk sense to you uh it probably shouldn't be me but yeah no this is uh

this is a very bad idea do not sell your house and buy an RV to promote your book and think you will make money that way because that is not a good way yeah yeah yes I I that story that that that man

lives in my soul I I like I feel so bad for his wife who wrote a book and now has you know the Intolerable pressure of when this of course fails because how can it not fail uh it's she will feel

like it's her fault yeah um can you remember I'm not telling you saying you should name it while we're recording but do you remember who that was can I mean we can probably not miss okay um i i s

to remember the cover it was actually a pretty good cover yeah I remember I went to a con and I want to say this the mids where right before ebooks got huge when like people would announce just ebook deals and they were ebook

Publishers and I went to a panel where there were three ebook writers two of them were older veterans and I don't know if I can't remember if they were Veterans of the you know ebook publishing or if just Veterans of of

publishing overall and in between these two older women was this young man and I always think of him like art gar funkle because he had the art gar funkle hair and he was sitting there and he looked so happy he was so excited to be on a

panel and talk about his new book deal that he got and then one woman just like took I'm pretty sure we were not talking I'm pretty sure the point of the panel was not you should you should quit

writing but it's like the two women just started talking about how joyless and pointless this job is that you'll make more money at McDonald's and just going and you could just see you know your full body cringe well he had the full

body deflate CU he was like getting it on both sides of how terrible this entire world of ebook publishing is and he was just kind of melting I just wanted to hug him he I I wish I could

remember who that was cuz I would hope he had a better career after that but uh I guess what we're saying is sometimes you can meet someone at a con who would either be poison or uh insert dangerous

thoughts into your head and while you know you can think all sorts of things just don't quit your job sell your house and sell books on the road like a traveling salesman like yeah it's yeah that's a lot uh yes the kids are asleep

says if no one does if you don't enjoy it then stop exactly yeah they they should have stopped and he could keep on with his ebook publishing and be happy and and particularly in self Pub like you don't need to make a living at it it

is fine to just do a book because you love it and have it out there and maybe it makes grocery money and that's great that is you know wild success so yeah it's uh but that ties into my you don't

have to monetize your hobbies rant which I will do another day yeah I will say oddly enough I have facts and figures I almost never do but uh about the uh Australia book tour okay and this ties into our book tours worth it which is

another question uh the answer is uh for adults probably not unless you're a blockbuster uh if you're doing kids books yes but they're brutal um so this was the first time I actually went out on a book tour as an adult as an author

for writer really they for adults not yeah because I have done a lot of kid book tours and they're brutal I don't think I knew that I don't think I knew that your Australia thing wasn't officially a book tour as well so I'm

just out of touch all over no it was uh uh the trip was paid for half by the publisher the the uh uh Titan UK who does the uh who has the Commonwealth rights which include Australia and half

by the convention Supernova con which had me there as a guest uh basically bookending this this book tour and then the publisher uh that they work with new South uh New South press has a uh had a basically a table

at the at both or a big Booth really at both conventions and sold books there and I can actually since the delightful assistant Wrangler that they sent me uh to make sure I went places where I was supposed to be on time um uh handily

emailed me a full list and basically for the five books that they were selling we sold between 1,200 and 1400 copies of each one wow uh in terms of both table sales and what book sales what bookstores ordered in as stock because I

was going to be there wow that's amazing congratulations well thank you uh it was great and part of that is just that uh uh the is you know fans in down under are not used to authors coming there most of the time

from the states because nobody ever sends them out there I'm sure the authors would love to go but it's an expensive plane ticket and it's also like a 16-hour flight which is brutal uh so uh a lot more people came out than

would probably come out if uh like either if you were an Aussie author who had been there around a while or if this was your third or fourth trip to Australia or whatnot um but uh it was great it was I I had a fabulous time uh

no complaints at all about the trip where but you are still looking at uh was the amounts that okay let me do math uh let's say let's say 6,500 books uh get sold total uh let's say most of them are 20

bucks uh does the publisher make enough on uh 6,000 books at 20 bucks each to pay for the plane ticket and the hotel rooms and all of that uh and the answer is I don't know I do not know what their

margins look like so I genuinely have no idea right but uh and then I mean then how much is for an author who is not paying for any of it of course it's totally worth it because you know hey

free Tri to Australia and for the price of sitting at a a con booth for on two successive weekends and then going out and signing and talking to people right uh and I am fortunate in that it is

fairly easy for me to talk to people at bookstores I I have acquired the skill somewhere of public speaking to groups of readers uh it is not excruciating there are some people for whom that would be exhausting and maybe that's the

only thing you want to do and uh again in terms of personal sales let's see uh six 6,500 books at uh 20 bucks a piece is what 13,000 and I get uh 10 to 12% of that so 1,300 bucks 1,500 bucks something like

that for two weeks which uh for yeah for basically two weeks of of work no that would not be worth it but getting paid that on top of getting a free trip to Australia yeah absolutely it's just sort

of comes down to you know if you enjoy doing it and you're going somewhere you want to go great and in fact that is my current rule for doing cons is is it somewhere I wish to go yeah so I will

absolutely say yes to finc con INF facted so you know trip to Finland fantastic I love Finland yeah uh I am less likely to go to you know places I have been a dozen times or uh uh places

I you know Texas has many things to recommend it but I have been to Texas on multiple occasions and it uh it's unlikely that you know it's going to come up with a new convention to excite me right I will always go to New Orleans

it's it just yeah you have to make the decisions based on uh a lot of intangibles but in terms of financial benefit at the time you're not going to see a lot so do not go to them thinking

you'll get rich there may however be long-term amounts and also we haven't really discussed meeting the fans is very very very important there are people who come up who have you know want to tell you very personal stories

of uh you know how like maybe your book changed their kids' life or something and that is like that is amazing that is a thing that that you know you that is not quantifiable and it is absolutely a a

privilege to be able to go and talk to people like that and have conversations like that I'm not going to lie that is also an emotionally draining experience because like holding space for people to to tell you very personal and meaningful

things is absolutely worth it but it is not something that that is you know uh uh energy free yeah you you give them away going I just did a lot of work and it was great and I'm glad I did it but

wow I need to sit down for a minute yeah so these are all considerations that you have to weigh yeah um yeah sorry we we did not stop for the ad break but essentially uh Ursula saying it may not

always be worthwhile monetarily but it is worthwhile to meet the fans because that's that and you know that's you got to remember that's something they're going to remember probably for the rest of their life and uh that's important

and they can say you know you you want someone to read well this is the best author I know because she you know changed my life with her book and then she she listened to me while I told her

how she changed my life with her book and and it's yeah and also it is possible that if you have a perfectly Pleasant interaction they will not remember it for the rest of their life but if you have a negative one they

absolutely will so this is one of those uh know yourself know if you can handle that kind of thing because if you can't it is better to stay home than do it badly uh much like social media yeah yeah that's absolutely true

it's yeah definitely don't take it out on the fans and it's not even necessarily taking out on the fans just if you freeze like a deer in the headlights when somebody talks to you yeah which no shade I have been there

like get me drunk sometime and ask me about the time I met Peter S beagle uh but uh if you know you are a person who cannot handle that that is okay to know that about yourself and say I need to

skip this part of the the of authoring and if it is something you feel you can't skip uh I don't know what the best way to desensitize yourself to meeting new people is um go to a con probably go

to when you're not when you're not the one being sought after you know I I'd gone to cons many many times before I ever got an audience sold you know got a podcast or sold a book or anything and

so I was used to going to cons and meeting people and talking to strangers for a little while and um so when it came time for people to you know want to talk to me I was I I I

like to think I'm a little I'm I'm smooth about it I'm cool and I think you're cool M so does my mom thank you uh that is a great suggestion uh it's probably better than mine which is uh go canvas for your local politic

party because they will actually give you a a brief training in how to go talk to a stranger about something important and more interes talking about you so about yourself which is awkward for people often but after I to get the

training I will have to Canvas and talking to a stranger about politics is possibly I'd rather go to the dentist and y'all know my fears of going to the dentist so yeah I'm just saying that's one way to do it that that was the thing

that came to mind all right um so is anybody in the chat have any questions for the ditch diggers before we uh sign off we've been going about an hour so like I should let Ursula have a get a little bit back to

her uh day and the the hound and the uh yes the Hound has the the UPS guy it will not kill us all in our sleep Hound is on the job I don't know you can never be sure um UPS gu pretty shady

yeah you know Rosa agrees very scary uh forner says canvasing at this point is less talking politics and more convincing people who like your candidate to actually vote okay well if I that's probably very true find the people who like my candidate I don't

know anyway um yeah is there anything else you want to talk about about the business of what we're doing here well we got to save something for later shows that's true that's true um typically we're going to be going every

other Monday 3 pm on Twitch uh in two weeks I'm going to actually be on the road and Ursa and I are trying to figure out a better time to be to be live so we're going to figure that out and then

we'll be on then um where can we find you online Ursula uh I'm on Blue Sky a lot these days uh as T Kingfisher you can find my website at uh red lomat studio.com although if you enter either tking fisher.com or URS

leer.com you will wind up redirected there so just enter my name in a search engine and it will shine the bat signal over Gotham oh excellent I want a bat signal more of a wbat signal I guess but

yes well yes yes uh and you can find me and this podcast and all the information connected to it at mver .c we have yet we're also going to get a new logo we're going to get uh numbers ninja my uh kid

and artist to give us a a Ursula in the style of numbers ninja and um so we'll be making a new logo that way so watch this space uh subscribe to either the stream or the um or the the the podcast

and we'll see you next time we do something cool I really hope I don't get hit by a bus like next week after you've had the logo and the song redone because that's going to be so much work it would

it would be a lot of work also making you better from being hit by a bus also would be work yes I will try to avoid buses this episode of ditch diggers was brought to you by the fabulous you can

be a fabulous too if you support the patreon at patreon.com Mighty or you can also Support over at twitch twitch. tv/ Mighty or you can support my substack at mighty. substack docomo spice you can find out more about

him at divos spice.com this podcast is released under a Creative Commons attribution non-commercial node derivatives 4.0 license artart by numbers ninja hosting by libson and you can see the archives ate.com thanks for listening