Neuroscientist: #1 Way To Lose Weight & Double Autophagy [EAT THIS]

Does sardine fasting help with visceral fat? Yes. With sardine fasting, you have extreme suppression of the hormone insulin, and your visceral fat is the first to go. I give my dogs sardines, too. I tend to maybe gravitate towards cheaper ones. Dr. Dominic Diaino is a neuroscientist who changed how we understand ketosis. Today, he's breaking down how sardine fasting can help you burn fat, double your speed of autophagy, protect your brain, and boost your immune system. The research also indicates that when you do this three, maybe you could extend it to five days, that the benefits go at least a month. It changes the body composition in a way that's more favorable to water-only fasting. When you come to the end of the fast, you're not in a nutrient deprivation state. So, can it help the gut microbiome? Yeah, it can be very beneficial for most people. HSCP is a better predictor for cardiovascular health. I don't think that's even controversial now, although it's not talked about much. If you're watching this, you likely want two things. You want to lose weight, but you also want to prevent diseases like dementia and cancer. And what if I told you there's a way to do both by flipping a single metabolic switch, and it starts by eating one specific food. Now, as a health researcher, I'm always looking towards the science, which is why I'm joined today by Dr. Dom D. Agugustino. He's a neuroscientist whom NASA and the DoD trust to optimize human performance in the most extreme environments. Today, we're breaking down the science of thine fasting, a protocol used by Dr. Bos to crush insulin and drop body fat without losing muscle. Plus, we're going to talk about the signs of ketosis and the gut microbiome and a common carnival health food that is slowly destroying your weight loss results. Now, if you're like me and you're disappointed by traditional healthcare advice, one thing you can do is to join this movement of curious minds and hit the subscribe button because next week I have another massive episode with Dr. Boss specifically talking about how butter can reverse insulin resistance. So Dom, my first question, as a neuroscientist, you deeply understand the body from a science perspective. So if somebody's coming to this episode, they want to lose weight and they also want to prevent some serious disease. What is the single biggest thing that they need to focus on? Broadly speaking, I would say understand your metabolic health biomarkers with insulin being at the top of the chain. And that's not actually included right now on a comprehensive metabolic panel, but it absolutely should be. So if somebody wants to focus on insulin, and there are different ways that we can lower our insulin, and that's what we're going to talk about today. I want to understand the role of autophagy to lower insulin. Is that effective? Well, autophagy is a consequence of keeping insulin low and suppressed, which does happen with fasting and happens with sardine fasting too, and also happens with caloric restriction and time-restricted feeding. So autophagy is essentially a consequence of having high insulin sensitivity and creating a caloric deficit or a state of low insulin even in the context of a eucaloric diet, which means you're getting enough calories to meet your energetic needs, but if you restrict the carbohydrates, you could keep insulin low enough to keep autophagic flux. So we measure autophagy in the lab with various autophagy signaling metabolites, and we can say that autophagy can be active. It's a consequence of low insulin, which is a consequence of following different dietary protocols if that makes sense. It makes sense. And there's a reason why I asked that because on the internet, if people look at how to get into autophagy, there is a lot of information about do a 72-hour fast, fasting for three days. And I think many people might think, is there another alternative where I can eat something but still get the benefits of autophagy? And that goes into a weird trick that you have been doing, I think, for the last few decades or the last few years, which is sardine fasting. Now, not only can this help people lower insulin, lower glucose, but it can also help people lose body fat. What is sardine fasting? Yeah, I never thought it would become a thing, but just by experience, I got interested in sardines in 2001. I was attending a conference and someone was selling a book called The Sardine Diet. So, I picked up that and that always and I started eating sardines in addition to tuna fish, which I was also eating at the time. Just added that. I wasn't a huge fan until I started doing well, there's different types of sardines, and if people are hearing this, I would recommend that they buy specific brands of sardines like King Oscar or what because your introduction to sardines will dictate, you know, it's the first impression. You want a good first impression of sardines, and then you can there's many different kinds that actually taste pretty good. So sardines are very high in omega-3 fatty acids. My omega-3s are off the charts, DHA and EPA. That's really good for suppressing inflammation, but also omega-3 fatty acids have anti-catabolic protein-sparing effects. So if you enter a state of a fairly significant energy deficit through fasting and you do it through sardine fasting, which has given your body it's almost like a protein-sparing modified fast that's on steroids or it's better than the existing sort of template of the protein-sparing modified fast, which has been around for about four decades. So, with sardines, you get all the micronutrients that you need pretty much, and then you get the omega-3 fatty acids, and your body does not enter any kind of state of nutrient deprivation, which is so you get a high nutrient sufficiency or you meet your nutritional requirements, but your caloric requirements, you enter it with an energy deficit. And it's that energy deficit that really drives autophagy and also drives the body composition alterations, you know, the loss in fat, and also the autophagy and other brain effects that we're seeking from that. So, and I could go into a little bit more details of what it does from a metabolomic perspective. If I sent you some of my data and DEXA scans and things like that, but it changes the body composition in a way that's more favorable to water-only fasting, and it also preserves your energy levels. And when you come to the end of the fast, you're not in a nutrient deprivation state, and it doesn't also alter your hormones like testosterone and other things, which can be suppressed, especially if you go beyond three days. Well, this sounds like the most brilliant strategy that anyone could do. I haven't done it personally, but do you think that if I or somebody watching does a sardine fast, so you're actually eating calories, you're eating something, is that going to have the similar autophagy effects as them doing, for example, a three-day fast or a five-day fast? Is it similar? You're talking about a water-only fast. Yeah. I think the main driver for autophagy that you can measure, we measure things like P62 and other markers of what's called the autophagic flux, and we do that in animal models and I've done a little bit in myself too, but typically what you want to look at is the hormone insulin, your glucose, and ketones. And I, the glucose and ketones are really important because the glucose level over ketones in millimolar concentration, which can be done with a commercial meter that you can buy online. We call that the glucose ketone index. And if you can achieve and maintain between one and four and then maintain that for like 72 hours, and your insulin will be just by default very low because it's restricting glycolytic metabolism, sugar metabolism, and

neuroscientist who changed how we understand ketosis. Today he's breaking down how sardine fasting can help you burn fat, double your speed of autophagy, protect your brain, and boost your immune system. The research also indicates that when you do this three,

maybe you could extend it to 5 days, that the benefits go at least a month. It changes the body composition in a way that's more favorable to water only fasting. When you come to the end of the fast, you're not in a nutrient deprivation state. So, canis help the gut microbiome? Yeah,

it can be very beneficial for most people. HSCP is a better predictor for cardiovascular health.

I don't think that's even controversial now, although it's not talked about much. If you're watching this, you likely want two things. You want to lose weight, but you also want to prevent diseases like dementia and cancer. And what if I told you there's a way

to do both? by flipping a single metabolic switch and it starts by eating one specific food. Now, as a health researcher, I'm always looking towards the science, which is why I'm joined today by Dr.

Dom D. Agugustino. He's a neuroscientist whom NASA and the DoD trust to optimize human performance in the most extreme environments. Today, we're breaking down the science of thine fasting, a protocol used by Dr. Bos to crush insulin and drop body fat without losing muscle. Plus,

we're going to talk about the signs of ketosis and the gut microbiome and a common carnival health food that is slowly destroying your weight loss results. Now, if you're like me and you're disappointed by traditional healthcare advice, one thing you can do is to join this movement

of curious minds and hit the subscribe button because next week I have another massive episode with Dr. Boss specifically talking about how butter can reverse insulin resistance. So Dom, my first question, as a neuroscientist, you deeply understand the body from a science perspective. So

if somebody's coming to this episode, they want to lose weight and they also want to prevent some serious disease. What is the single biggest thing that they need to focus on? Broadly speaking, I would say understand your metabolic health biomarkers with insulin being at the top of

the chain. And that's not actually included right now on a comprehensive metabolic panel, but it absolutely should be. So if somebody wants to focus on insulin, and there are different ways that we can lower our insulin, and that's what we're going to talk about today. I

want to understand the role of autophagy to lower insulin. Is that effective? Well, autophagy is a consequence of keeping insulin low and suppressed, which does happen with fasting and happens with sardine fasting too, and also happens with caloric restriction and timerestricted feeding.

So autophagy is essentially a consequence of having high insulin sensitivity and creating a caloric deficit or a state of low insulin even in the even in the context of uh a ukaloric diet which means you're getting enough calories to meet your energetic needs but if you

restrict the carbohydrates you could keep insulin low enough to keep autoagic flux. So we measure autophagy in the lab with various autophagy uh you know uh signaling metabolites and we can say that autophagy can be active. It's a consequence of low insulin which is a consequence of following

different dietary protocols if that makes sense. It makes sense. And there's a reason why I asked that because on the internet, if people look at how to get into autophagy, there are a lot of information about do a 72-hour fast, fasting for 3 days. And I think many people might think,

is there another alternative where I can eat something but still get the benefits of autophagy?

And that goes into a weird trick that you have been doing, I think, for the last few decades or the last few years, which is sardine fasting. Now, not only can this help people lower insulin, lower glucose, but it can also help people lose body fat. What is sardine fasting? Yeah, I never

thought it would become a thing, but um just by experience, I uh I got interested in sardines in 2001. I was attending a conference and someone was selling a book called The Sardine Diet. So, I picked up that and that always and I started eating sardines uh in addition to tuna fish, which

I was also eating at the time. Just added that. I wasn't a huge fan until I started doing uh well there's different types of sardines and if people are hearing this I would recommend that they buy specific brands of sardines like uh King Oscar or what because your introduction to sardines will

dictate uh you know it's the first impression. You want a good first impression of sardines and then you can there's many different kinds that actually taste pretty good. Uh so sardines are very high in omega-3 fatty acids. Uh, my omega-3s are off the charts, DHA and EPA. That's really good

for suppressing inflammation, but also uh omega-3 fatty acids have anti catabolic protein sparing effects. So if you uh enter a state of a of a fairly significant energy deficit through fasting and you do it through sardine fasting which has given your body it's almost like a proteinsparing

modified fast that's on steroids or it's it's uh it's better than the existing sort of template of the protein sparing modified fast which has been around for about four decades. So, with sardines, you get all the micronutrients that you need pretty much and then you get the omega-3 fatty

acids and your body does not uh enter any kind of state of nutrient deprivation, which is so you get uh a high nutrient uh sufficiency or you meet your nutritional requirements uh but your caloric requirements uh uh you you enter it with an energy deficit. And it's that energy deficit

that really drives autophagy and also drives the body composition alterations, you know, the the loss in fat, uh, and also the autophagy and other brain effects that we're seeking from that. So, um, and I could go into a little bit more details of what it does from a metabolomic perspective.

if I sent you some of my data and DEXA scans and things like that, but it changes the body composition in a way that's more favorable to water only fasting and it also preserves your energy levels and when you come to the end of the fast, you're not in a nutrient deprivation

state and it it doesn't also alter your hormones like testosterone and other things which can be suppressed if you especially if you go beyond 3 days. Well, this sounds like the most brilliant strategy that anyone could do. I haven't done it personally, but do you think that if I or somebody

watching does a sardine fast, so you're actually eating calories, you're eating something? Um, is that going to have the similar autophagy effects as them doing, for example, a 3-day fast or a 5day fast? Is it similar? Uh, I you're talking about a water only fast. Yeah. I think the main driver for

autophagy that you can measure, we measure things like P62 and other markers of what's called the autophagic flux and we do that in animal models and I've done a little bit in myself too, but uh but typically what you want to look at is the the hormone insulin, your glucose and ketones.

And uh I the glucose and ketones are really important because uh the glucose level over ketones in millolar concentration which can be done with a commercial meter that you can buy online. We call that the glucose ketone index. And if you can achieve and maintain between one and

four and then maintain that for like 72 hours and your insulin will be just by default very low because it's it's restricting glycolytic metabolism, sugar metabolism and forcing your body to mobilize fatty acids for fuel and make ketones and ketone production is uh more or less

inversely proportional to the suppression of the hormone insulin. So as insulin goes down further, ketone production will ramp up and a glucose ketone index between 1 and 4 is one way to measure entry into autophagy if you can sustain that for 72 days if if you don't measure insulin. But there

are commercially available kits where you could do at home or you could go to Quest Diagnostics and just add an insulin test. But it's the suppression of insulin, the glucose ketone index. if you don't have the lab to mention or to to measure the components of the autophagic flux which research

scientists do. It's kind of beyond what someone at home could do. But yeah, 72 days can 72 72 hours uh of a sardine fast can essentially achieve that and it would mimic what would be more or less happens with a three-day water only fast and uh you know a fiveday fast too. you're getting into

zones where you know fasting becomes starvation when you start uh becoming nutrient depleted and if you have a lot of body fat then fasting is more feasible but if you are already lean uh or you don't have a lot of fat to lose uh but there are in the literature you know someone fasted for

a year and and came out the other end you know okay and I've I've seen a lot of blood work in individuals that fasted said 5 days, 7 days, 10 days, and even 40 days like someone sent me a

fat. I advise not to do it. But uh but when you go beyond and me included, if you go beyond 7 days, that causes a counter a counter regulatory effect on your your hormones. So your your thyroid will be suppressed, your T3 levels, uh your your testosterone and other hormones can be suppressed,

and and you generally want to not do that. So, a three-day fast, I've I've never seen any abnormalities in my hormones, and that's why I'm kind of safe. And if I advocate for a fast, it would be three days with sardines. That's really important to understand because I think that,

you know, so many people have thyroid issues, they have brain issues, you know, cancer is a big thing that's ever increasing. And if we can do something where we're still eating and get some really good results, it's a really plausible sciencebacked alternative as opposed to just drinking water. And

I'm sure that people like to eat something. Maybe sardines is not the best thing, but we're going to offer some other foods that we can eat. I want to get into your amazing results. So, you sent me both your DEXA scan and your GOVA, is it the GOVA? Um, your food sensitivities, which I'd like to get

into. Goa diagnostics. Yeah. like they have these kits and you know I became aware of them because patients that I'm connected to that are managing everything from Parkinson's to cancer to different neural were sending me their data. I was like wow this is really cool and I knew of GOVA diagnostics

but I didn't know of that particular kit. uh and about in 2001 I believe I started it and I don't know of anything that gives you the advanced comprehensive metabolic profile and also the food allergies which is I think could be important also the heavy metals which some people

I've been in contact with you know they have a heavy metal toxicity they correct that and then their metabolic uh their mitochondrial metabolic markers improve dramatically after that. So, so these are just some things that it's an advanced test that should be done in addition. But yeah,

that that's what I sent you the results from that. Brilliant. And let's talk about these results. So, I first want to talk about your body fat. Um, first question for you might seem a bit bold. How old are you, Dom? Uh, 50 going on 51. Yeah. Okay. So, that's really important because if somebody's

watching this and they're 50 plus or even like me, I'm 42. You know this is something that can help you not only manage your disease risk but also help you reduce body fat because you are quite a lean individual but from doing sidene fasting from 2024 to 2025 your body fat dropped from 10%

which is very good but it went down to 8.9%. So my question for you if somebody wants to consider doing this could they get similar results from just doing this for 3 days? Yes they could. I'd also add that resistance training is a big lever to pull and when you're doing the fast, you don't

have to be deadlifting for a a personal record or anything like that, but resistance training goes a long way in triggering the signal for your body to retain uh skeletal muscle and lean body mass. So uh and also I do two walks per day or mandatory because we have dogs that demand to be walked. So

um and I tend to do that after like meals. So even with the sardines, after I eat the sardine sardines, I'll go for a brisk walk, usually about 15 to 20 minutes in addition to resistance training pretty heavyish about uh three times per week. And and that's that's important.

So my results may reflect uh the addition of resistance training, which is the stimulus to grow muscle of course, but also to preserve it even in the context of a caloric deficit. Perfect.

Is that in indicative of your increase in muscle mass by 2.7 pounds because you were resistance training whilst also having a nutrient-dense food like sardines? Yeah. Yeah, it was uh part of that too and that could be uh you know from the prior I think the prior measurement was taken at a time

where I was not focusing as much on like squats or heavy squats and things like that. So I ramped that up a little bit. uh and going into that. Yeah, I was actually surprised. I was a little bit

nervous for the results. So, when it came back, I was uh pleasantly surprised that I did. But it's also important to mention I've done three-day fast and 5day and 7-day fast before. And I think with a 7-day fast, I lost nine pounds of fat-ree mass, which could be that could be glycogen because,

you know, the muscle swells up with glycogen, and that's water, and that shows up as that shows up as muscle. Uh, but I did make sure that I was hydrated. And I did take electrolytes. Oh, and I did use uh ketone supplements, too. I took about 20 wait one two three three packets 18 to 20 gram

of beta hydroxybutyrate salts. So electrolytes in the form of sodium potassium calcium magnesium but it was bound to beta hydroxybutyrate and and ketones are uh by virtue of like you know with starvation fasting ketones have an anti catabolic effect too. So that that was definitely a factor

I think too. Okay. All the things that I want to talk about. So, basically, your body fat dropped um quite a lot like cuz you were a low body fat. But if somebody's watching this and they look down

and they see a belly and they want to lose some fat, you know, this is a plausible way to help reduce that or at least kickstart um your body burning fat. Um does this target visceral fat in case somebody wants to think, okay, I want to get rid of the jiggly fat, but there's fat around

my organs. My doctor's telling me that. Does sardine fasting help with visceral fat? Yes.

I mean the any kind of caloric deficit will, but with sardine fasting, you have extreme suppression of the hormone insulin. At the same time, there are various things within sardines like the omega-3 fatty acids that lower triglycerides and micronutrients that enhance insulin sensitivity.

So I believe it's like uh it's it's greatly augmenting your body's mobilization of fat stores and your intramental visceral fat is the first to go uh in that in that scenario when you rapidly adjust to uh you know fasting ketosis I guess you would say that that that goes first

for sure. Okay. I mean the the good news keeps on coming. Um let's talk about your insulin.

What happened to your insulin after eating sardines for 3 days? Yeah, my insulin measurement was 1.9 which is uh it was flagged on the test as being too low. But in the context of you know fasting and ketogenic diets and and pushing your body into uh the the maximum fat oxidation state

that is very beneficial. Uh and even the I talked to the scientists at Genova Diagnostics that do the metabolomics and my lactate was not even like even measurable really. It was it was very low and uh they they had never seen that before. So it it suggested on the test that I had an extreme

bottleneck in glycolytic flux which means that my gluconioenesis too was not ramped up. And I think with the sardine fasting, what and I should have measured cortisol, and I didn't this time, but I what I think was also happening that it was not a traditional like three-day fast would ramp

up and jack up cortisol and glucagon. And I think and I have to measure this and I I didn't do it for this test, but I uh I I believe that glucagon and cortisol probably stayed within normal ranges

uh just because of prior tests where I had measured those things in the past but not for this particular test because that would maintain glycolytic flux. in the case of this sardine fast that my my lactate was like not you know even measurable and there was markers of fat

oxidation and and ketone oxidation and overall mitochondrial flux and that was unlike anything they had ever seen before and it was a it was higher than uh I had seen in previous tests having done this test before and other tests and that's I think that's what people are looking for yeah

absolutely so it seems like your body fat reduced muscle mass increased as a consequence of also doing resistance training. Your insulin dropped targeting visceral fat. What happened to your LDL and your triglycerides? Yeah, triglycerides are in the 30s, which again is like really, really,

really low. My LDL cholesterol has historically been quite high because I follow a low carb ketogenic diet. And when I did like a clinical ketogenic diet, it was in the 300s. So that's alarming to many people. And uh and my apo which is probably better than LDL was about 165. So and

around two years two or three years ago I started using a drug not a statin but a drug called aettoide and it's also sold as zedia the brand name. And aettoide blocks the NPC1 L1 receptor.

So that that basically sucks up cholesterol from the gastro that's your cholesterol transporter. And I took a a dose of this and it cut my cholesterol apo B in half. So I I was on that drug and and I further did genetic testing through GB Healthw Watch to show that I have a mutation and I

overexpress I guess there's a gain of function for the uh MPCL1 receptor. Not to get too complicated, but it's also important to know that there's people out there that have vast, you know, greatly elevated LDL and APOB to low carb diets and ketogenic diets. And many of them are what we

call hyperabsorbers. So, I'm an extreme example of that because I have a genetic anomaly for this transporter. and a little tiny baby dose a monotherapy of a zeettoide and I break it in half so it's just 5 milligrams per day has kept me for the last years you know about 190

LDL and apo about 90 I think and otherwise it would be really high and I don't know if that's uh it's not having any negative effects for sure and I do not want to use a statin but my apo and

LDL largely did not change during the fast uh some doctors would say it's still elevated but I'm not going to take further you know I don't think it's necessary to and also I've had a a a corateed scan

and my my vascular age was 34 and there was no evidence of softer no evidence of any plaque uh in my ve and that's that's good for a 51year-old especially having a vascular age of 34 was uh a good sign so I'm not uh I'm not I don't want to lower my LDL anymore and I'm not even sure it's

necessary but I'm doing it because my LP little A is also high and there's cardiovascular disease, strokes and stuff in my family, kind of distant relatives. So, I'm just being a little bit prudent in in my use of a drug that really doesn't have any side effects to yet to my knowledge. Okay.

Well, I think people would be thinking, well, do I need to lower my LDL cholesterol? What do I what do I need to do with respect to that? So I'd like to talk about that further in our conversation.

Um because you don't really you think another marker is more important than LDL cholesterol which we'll talk about. Um but getting back to the sardine fasting now bone health is very important especially as people age. Do you know what happened to your bone health after doing the

sardine fasting? Yeah, my bone health is like maxed out on the chart. So I'm kind of like an outlier on that. So my bone density Yeah. is if you look I think yeah I sent you the the bone

mineral density yeah it was really u again the clinic that did it said this is very unusual to see that and I think what's important I think the message that's really important is that I have been on a pretty strict ketogenic diet for uh almost 20 years definitely well over 15

years and ketogenic diets get a lot of push back because of the mild metabolic acidosis that some endocrinologists will say happens. Uh, but I have been on a in some form of ketosis for like almost two decades and my bone health is really off the charts. The main driver for that is, you know,

weightbearing, you know, resistance exercise and muscle, right? So bone, there's no reason for bone to have a very high bone mineral density if you're not putting stress on it. And what puts stress on bone? It's muscle. So typically what we see is that bone mineral density will correlate with

skeletal muscle mass and also uh heavy resistance loadbearing uh training. And I think that's that's really important uh and and that's why you know it's important to if you're losing weight uh whether you're a GLP1 or a low carb diet to continue resistance training because as you lose

weight you're going to lose muscle and that could impact your bone density especially in women.

very important for women to do that. As Dom and I discussed today, your health comes down to what you eat, your immune system, and your gut function. And you can eat the cleanest diet in the world, like carnivore or keto. But if your gut barrier is strained, other parts of your

body and how it functions are going to feel it. Think of it this way. Our modern world is constantly putting strains on our gut. And when this happens, toxins leak into your bloodstream and it triggers a response that travels throughout your whole body leading to that foggy feeling or

that tired feeling. And instead of focusing on energy and focus, your body is distracted, fighting these tiny fires in your gut. And that is why I have made armor colostrum a staple in my morning routine. If you aren't familiar, colostrum is the first milk that is produced after birth.

It is literally nature's blueprint for building a strong immune system and a healthy gut. And armor is a whole food powerhouse with over 400 bioactive nutrients that helps seal those guts that I was talking about earlier, which is why I've been feeling so much more energized and focused. And

for my carnivore friends, the unflavored version is 100% carnivore. And I just do four scoops in cold water every morning to keep that gut barrier strong. So, if you want to try Armra, just head to arra.com/theprimal podcast or use code theprimal podcast for 15% off your first order. There's

also a link down in the description. That's why I love you, Dom, because it's so important to not only talk about sardine fasting, a protocol that people can use every day to help them lose weight, but you know, it's the important stuff that you're talking about, which is, yeah, I did this,

but I also resistance trained. I've been doing a ketogenic diet for I think you said two decades, 20 years. So you know all of these things along with the sardine fasting is important to improve your metabolic health um including exercise which we'll talk more about. So I want to talk now about

what do people have to eat in terms of the types of sardines, how often and how much. The type of sardines will depend on your pallet and there are ones that you can get at the dollar store that

are probably okay. I think uh they even have the last time I bought some sardines. I give my dog sardines too. I tend to maybe gravitate towards cheaper ones, but Chicken of the Sea for example, they have sardines. And then I the third party the third party analysis on the heavy metals of them

are good. So they have pretty good uh sourcing and sustainability. And I think they're mostly caught in Portugal. Uh, so like if you want to go the cheap route, um, sardines in water I think would be the cheapest. You can get them almost for a dollar to $1.29 a can if you really shop around

and look for deals and if you buy them bulk. Uh, and then you could get uh maybe the higher end would be King Oscar, which sells them and their different flavors. And uh, I like to get the uh,

extra virgin uh, olive oil. And and another thing I've been experimenting with is uh cod liver, canned cod liver, which comes in the same size can, but it has three times the amount of calories. And the cod liver very high in omega-3s, and the cod liver is actually sitting in cod liver

oil. So, uh so you have 660 calories in a in a very in a small can. This the you have about three times the amount of calories as sardine. So, they're very good for traveling. And it'll say Icelandic cod liver. And uh we're on our way to Iceland too. So I'll build it kind of get it from

from the place. Uh so that is another option. Uh and the the potential advantage for the the canned cod liver, it is very high in in vitamin A. So you just need to be they could get too high levels of

vitamin A if you eat a lot of cans. Is that the ketogenic the ketogenic ratios are higher in in cod um liver. So, but I mean we're talking about sardines. So, cod liver if you really want to stay

in a state of high ketosis. This could potentially be replicated with cod liver or uh you know, but the sardines will have more protein for sure. And it'll depend on your your pallet. So, I encourage people to if they're just starting out, I would say just go for the more expensive

ones first because your first impressions are big with sardines. And my first impressions were not very good. So I used them kind of sparingly about 20 years ago. And then I titrated them in especially when I went to Europe and would see like in in uh Croatia or in Greece I think

for example or Portugal like there's just tons of different varieties of sardines and some of them taste really good. So I would say avoid sard avoid sardines in soybean oil, corn oil or like vegetable oil. And if you want uh I do like the idea of of sardines in extra virgin olive oil is a

good thing because you get the extra fat calories that are ketogenic. Okay. Very very simple. So look at the quality of the sardines especially if you're just starting maybe the more expensive version as opposed to the $1 version. Um how often if I want to do this how often do I need to do

this? Uh well it depends on your context and why you're doing it. And uh one idea that I think is shared by other scientists too. I just heard some u I won't mention their name but they're kind of

big and you know influencers uh but they're also uh scientists uh tenur professors. They're doing it now and they're doing uh 3 to five days uh once a month. And this could fall back on uh Dr. for Walter Longo who advanced the fasting mimicking diet. And I do I do believe he sells

some products that are like a kit that you can buy for 5 days and essentially very low calories about the same amount of calories as three sardines per day or three cans of sardines per day. Uh but I

would argue that the sardine fast is kind of much better in regard to the the micronutrients and also the proteins and omega-3s. Uh so you could follow a protocol like three days you know done once a month and that could be situationally when the timing is right for you to do it. Uh but the

research also indicates that when you do this three maybe you could extend it to 5 days that the benefits go at least a month to six weeks or more. So um and Walter Longo has published on the fasting mimicking diet and the same thing would happen I believe maybe to a greater extent with

a sardine fast. So if you do it like once a month that metabolic reset could really be pushing your body towards more metabolic flexibility. Um and I I I have often talked about like when if you lift weights and build up to a certain level of strength and take time off your strength comes

back really quick and we call that muscle memory. If you diet down to a certain level and then you get out of shape and then diet again, it it it tends to go a lot easier and faster. And I call

that I call that metabolic memory. And when when we do this type of fasting, we're changing many different metabolic parameters. We're changing our metabolic physiology. We're also changing brain energy metabolism and the neuropharmacology of our brain. This is why I studied the ketogenic

diet because it has applications for seizures and other disorders. But we're also activating gene transcription and we call that uh or gene expression and we call that epigenetic effects and the the increase in gene expression and associated pathways. Uh when that gets ramped

up you're fundamentally like changing your body and then those pathways get the epigenetic effects are preserved uh through even if you're out of ketosis for a longer period of time. So, so these are this is an area that's emerging right now that you know epigenetic changes even like for

for women that are pregnant you know what they're exposed to during their pregnancies has effects on the offspring and that's like you know epigenetic effects but we know that I I believe there's everybody agrees that there's this muscle memory and I think uh I have often been talking about

uh metabolic memory that you know these these intermittent fasting sardine fastings whatever you want to call it actually has like long-term beneficial effects through epigenetic changes.

Okay, so that makes sense. Doing a sadine fast once a month for 3 to 5 days, just that short period of time to get you into deep ketosis. I now want to turn our attention to what ketosis can do in the entire body beyond just weight loss. So, can ketosis help the gut microbiome? Yeah,

generally speaking, it can be very beneficial for most people. Uh, and I do think that if you add uh the diversity of your ketogenic diet could offer additional benefits in regard to the diversity of your microbiome, but I think the jury is still out that a having a a very diverse microbiome is

beneficial. But the people who study microbiome, they say it is, but I've not, you know, that the data is not very conclusive on that. But I will say that there's certain species of bacteria, acromancia for example, actually that goes up on a ketogenic diet. And the acromancia

uh you know uh species helps the the gut mucosa uh generate uh uh the mucosal lining the mucus that protects your gut. It's very protective and it actually helps to preserve the integrity of your gut and prevents intestinal permeability that is associated with like uh leaky gut and things like

that. And then the you know lactobacillus bifido bacteria like these things which are can be found in fermented food can be beneficial. So having some like uh truly fermented uh uh sour cream or or you know that could be beneficial for for some people. Uh but you know there's some

research that researchers that have been focusing on low carb diets, ketogenic diets uh and they see benefic benefits and they are proponents that the changes in the microbiome are actually uh they are actually leading to the anti-seizure neuroprotective effects. I am a little bit less

convinced of that because in our lab we can give exogenous ketones without changing diet at all and see an anti-convulsant activity just from the ketones. So, I think there's a lot of different things, a lot of different moving parts when you follow a ketogenic diet. And of course,

it changes your whole metabolic physiology and even hormones in a way that is changing your your sympathetic nervous system, your parasympathetic nervous system like uh even the neurotransmitters GABA go up for example. uh and and these are all beneficial too especially

especially in the context of metabolic psychiatry which is a rapidly emerging field where ketogenic metabolic therapies are being used for things like schizophrenia, bipolar, major depression, u anxiety disorders, anorexia nervosa. So there's all registered clinical trials now looking at k

ketone metabolic therapies for those disorders largely spearheaded some by the NIH but largely spearheaded by the Bazooki group uh which is a philanthropic organization that's funding some of the work. Amazing. So we can improve our gut health and the gut microbiome by simply not not

eating all of these carbohydrates that we're told to eat. Um the next benefit perhaps of a ketogenic diet or entering to a state of ketosis, mental health and brain disease. Um can ketosis, you know, if somebody's worried about brain disease like Alzheimer's, Parkinson's,

can that help being in ketosis? Yes. And I think again it's very nuanced conversation and the research is ongoing. But uh there's published research if you just even systemat uh systematic uh metaanalysis uh reviews on this. Um and also there's a lot of clinical trials right now. If

someone was to go to clinicaltrials.gov and just type in ketogenic diet, you'll find many different trials. Um evidence-based applications include, you know, um Alzheimer's disease, uh weight loss, diabetes, and those things. you know obviously can help um you know there's

registered clinical trials on polycystic kidney disease migraine Parkinson's disease uh we study different inborn errors and metabolism that are neuromabolic but so they're like more evidence-based and then there's emerging what I call emerging evidence-based applications and that includes psychiatric disorders uh and I believe there's about 40 to 50 registered clinical trials

on psychiatric disorders and as I mentioned you know bipolar anxiety, depression, schizophrenia, uh but also traumatic brain injury, which is something that, you know, we're interested in studying. So, the the research is emerging, the case reports are there, the RCTs are emerging,

there's a few of them. Um, and it's a very active uh keep in mind that 5 years ago there were like no clinical trials. 10 years ago, definitely none. And now, if you just put in ketogenic diet into

clinical trials.gov, gov you get about 450 to 500 clinical trials. So that just and then it'll take it'll take years sometimes 5 to 10 years if it's a longer trial for that research to hit PubMed.

So so just you know for listeners out there and there's already a spike up in in PubMed although the Google Analytics kind of came down because there's this big surge on keto. So Google does its own thing, but I mostly focus on the peer-reviewed publications in PubMed and also what's in clinical

trials.gov. And that will that's essentially will give you a window into the validity of the science and the application of ketone metabolic therapies. And there's also a lot of discussion about further augmenting the ketogenic diet uh with ketone supplementation. you know that could

be everything from MCT oil or ketone esters or ketone salts or various exogenous ketones. So we work on that front too. All the things I want to talk about as well. So we mentioned the ketogenic diet can help with the gut and gut health. It's it's a big issue that drives so many disease. Um

ketogenic diet for mental health, brain uh issues. Um I'm also talking to Dr. George Eid next week about how the ketogenic diet can help with mental health. So there's so much um areas of research.

Um this is an area quite interestingly um where a ketogenic diet can help with cancer. Um not to say that it is a treatment for cancer, but if you want to lead with the story of Dr. Fred Hatfield

who use a ketogenic diet in his own story, what happened with him? Yeah, Fred was maybe one of the first I just started getting interested in ketogenic diets and not formally doing research, but Fred was a dear friend and mentor of mine and I think uh around we connected face to face

personally around 2008 I believe and uh uh he was diagnosed with advanced metastic prostate cancer that had spread to the hips and had metastatic bone cancer and um and he was undergoing different treatments that weren't really working at all And I had just like this, you know, I was studying

ketogenic therapies for a military application, which is central nervous system oxygen toxicity, which is like something Navy Seals get if they use a closed circuit rebreather. But in the in the in the process of researching that, I had various cells and some of the cells were cancer

cells and we observed that they failed to grow in the presence of ketones and they they died. If you you know knocked down the glucose and gave them ketones, the neurons loved it. But if you grew cancer cells and you restricted to glucose and put in ketones like they they would rapidly die. And

that was an interesting observation that I kind of did not expect. And I was just using a particular cell model because it was easy to grow and I was comparing it sort of a control for for another project and we don't have to go into the details but uh it gave me insight into something that was

happening with cancer cells. So I researched it on on PubMed and then I found the work of Dr. Thomas safeed and that really interested me. He had a he had a publication in 2008 and then I got really

interested because I had some PhD students that wanted to study it and he's published uh he published a review article in nutrition and metabolism entitled cancer is a metabolic disease.

And what he was saying in that review article basically was explaining some of the observations that we were making in the lab using conffocal microscopy looking at the mitochondria of cancer cells. They were dying and exploding when we were hitting them with high high oxygen and it was kind

of I was observing the Warberg effect but I didn't really know what it was at the time because I was not a cancer biologist but I I self-taught myself this. I'm a cell biologist and neuroscientist and metabolic physiologist. uh but you know long story short we ba basically developed a very robust

preclinical uh ketogenic diet uh research lab and we've published a number of articles on ketone metabolic therapy. We've also published articles on like metformin and different glycolytic drugs.

So targeting the warberg effect targeting this accelerated sugar metabolism in cancer cells uh brain cancer and advanced metastic cancer is what we study. So, getting back to Fred, Dr. Hatfield, uh, so he was a well-known powerlifter at the time and squatted kind of raw, 1,000 pounds,

which is even like unheard of today. And he was a well-known authority in powerlifting and uh, and just like a big brain behind uh, the the fitness world. We connected. I advocated uh, that he try this. He did, and he went into rapid remission, which is, you know, not going

to happen with everybody. And I don't think we should promote the ketogenic diet as a cure for cancer. But in his case, uh he did the sardine fasting and he did he was also very spiritual.

So he would do a lot of prayer and meditation and I think while he was in a state of fasting and then I think I recommended sardines. So he got he like loved sardines. So he got into that and

would do cycles of the sardine fasting and then he essentially had no evidence of no evidence of disease. So that doesn't mean remission, but it just mean that they couldn't find like cancer in his body. And then that was 2008. And I think in 2017, Fred died of something totally unrelated to

to to cancer. But uh he was only given a short time to live when we met when we first met. And uh and he sort of like, you know, was the person doing what I was studying in the lab. And it was

almost like this proof of concept that you know and then also talking with Dr. Thomas Safe Freed, he was telling me that he had patients and he was telling me the ketogenic diet works better for cancer than it does with epilepsy or seizure disorders. And I was studying seizure disorders

and I knew it had a very solid track record for that. And I was like, "Okay, maybe this is something I need to study." Uh, and I had a little bit of startup friends as I transitioned to a tenure track position at my university. And that got Dr. Angela Poff or at she was a

PhD student at the time on her project and then like Dr. Andrew Cutnick who who you have mentored you know he actually used Dr. Safe Reed's model looking at cancer cexia and one of the benefits of being in ketosis is that it's anti-catabolic and muscle sparing and also reduces significantly

inflammation which is a driver for muscle wasting and uh Dr. Dr. Nate Ward, he studied more like the anti- anti-cancer drugs. Uh, but he has a he has a lab at Moffett Cancer Center now. So, I I've had a a lot of very talented students kind of uh come into my lab studying cancer mechanisms

and pre-clinical models that have helped us move the science and application of ketone metabolic therapies into the clinic. And we we did recently get with the Moffett Cancer Center a very high score on an NIHR21 grant to move ketone metabolic therapies into uh into the clinic for enhancing uh

immune-based therapies specifically the uh immune checkpoint inhibitors the PD1 inhibitors for lung cancer. So that just got approved and I'm working with Moffett to advance this dietary therapy as an uh as an adjunct as a as a way to further enhance the adaptive immune system that makes

immune therapies work better. And work is already being done at University of Pennsylvania and other institutions. So, you know, we're not the only one doing it. And I think there's a couple dozen uh you know, trials right now going on looking at ketone metabolic therapies for cancer. So uh

but I think Thomas Safford largely started that and then we did the pre-clinical work and then other other institutions followed with like the clinical trials. Wow. So there's so many different applications of just increasing your ketones. So using a different fuel source for your body. What

does this mean for somebody watching? They have a disease maybe we haven't spoken about. Maybe it's not cancer. Maybe they might have gut problems but they don't know it. Maybe it's not a brain problem but they have something for them. How do you think increasing ketones might help them? I think

there's a big interest in the longevity field and you know I wake up every morning and I have a lot of emails and a lot of people just want to maybe there's cancer in their family, maybe there's some

there's Alzheimer's for example and they want to live the longest life, the best life that they can and there are many longevity pathways that are targeted by the ketogenic diet and even ketones.

uh and that could be you know it reduces insulin it increases auto autophagy or autophagic flux we can say that mitochondrial efficiency and bioenergetics reduces oxidative stress uh inflammation it reduces and then there's the my last PhD student that graduated studied the

metabolic control of epigenetic regulation so when ketones are elevated in the blood and circulating and go to the brain it there's there's ketone induced gene expression uh and that could be through something called histone deacetylise uh enzymes that kind of uh also methylation patterns

are changed and then we also know this phenomenon called beta hydroxybutilation. Now not to get too technical but I the important thing is that beta hydroxybutyrate the ketone molecule can directly interact with something called a histone and uh it can bypass other other mechanisms and

directly impact the histone and to influence gene expression that's called beta hydroxybutilation. The same thing happens with lactate and that's called lactylation. So that's an emerging field that a lot of uh mechanistic scientists are focusing on. So visceral fat, metabolic

flexibility and I mean my background is really ketosis for neurop protection. So protecting the brain um reducing neuroinflammation, enhancing you know neurotransmitter systems and u as we age the the glucose metabolism of the brain uh declines pretty steady but the gluc the ketone

metabolism of the brain basically is preserved. So what does that mean as we age? I'm in my 50s and it starts actually when you're in your mid20s. So, so you are so people my age and older especially uh they have reduced glucose energy metabolism in the brain. However, if you give them ketones,

their ability to use ketones and and uh to enhance brain energy metabolism is preserved. And Dr.

Steven Kunain has published on that using an FDG PET scan and then a ketone PET scan and looking at you know things like mild cognitive impairment uh and a number of investigators are looking at that and replicating that work. So I think that what I just described there is just you know ketone

metabolic therapies the state of ketosis whether done you know continuously or intermittently is impacting you know metabolic physiology gene expression and brain function inflammation states. So all these are are beneficial and but it also uh you know everybody is a unique

metabolic entity. So, I think that doing blood work is going to be important because any radical change to your diet can change things in ways that could potentially be unpredictable. So, keep up on your blood work. And I say you have objective biomarkers and you have subjective.

If you don't feel good on the diet, something's wrong. Even if the the objective biomarkers are improving and vice versa. So, so you want to feel good, have lots of energy, but also have, you know, your cardio metabolic biomarkers should be going in the right direction to when you

follow this diet. Now, as Dom often says, fixing your health, whether it's losing excess weight or dealing with a more serious condition like cancer or diabetes or any other chronic disease, can feel incredibly isolating because you're making a big lifestyle shift. And frankly,

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increasing your ketones and shifting what you eat, eating less carbs, eating more healthy fats and um proteins. So I want to ask a big question that people have, which is about cholesterol. Now you mentioned earlier that your LDL cholesterol is like really high and you're taking a drug

for that. But broadly speaking, so it's not you, it's not me because I also experience a similar thing. But for somebody that's doing, you know, higher fat diet, not eating the carbohydrates, the LDL increases. You say that HSCP is more important than LDL cholesterol. Why is that?

Yeah, I think if we look at the the data the you know human randomized control trials and and even the epidemiological data that HSCP is a better predictor for uh for cardiovascular health. I don't think that's even controversial now although it's not talked about much. Uh but HSCP elevated

is is an indication that something's wrong with the with your with your body and that could be you know a variety of different things. Uh but typically is a result of poor metabolic health which can be vastly improved with simply carbohydrate restriction, ketogenic diets,

you know inter improving your your diet quality. And a lot of people suffer in the United States and and abroad uh from energy toxicity, just simply eating too much. So I think we should start there. And the easiest way to reduce uh energy toxicity is through carbohydrate restriction and

just intermittent fasting. You know, everybody's going to be different, but uh HSCP responds dramatically to uh an energy deficit uh but also responds for me very dramatically being in a state of nutritional ketosis. So, independent of weight loss, my HSCRP typically hovered around like I

don't know two to three to five one time and now it's like non-detectable like 0.2 2 0.3 sometimes but usually like 0.1 or you know non-detectable uh so ND I get usually on the test uh and that never happened prior to I did get HSCP only measured maybe three times prior to transition to

a ketogen so I only have a baseline of like three but now I get it measured three times per year and uh it's always low only in the context of like one time I had like a little stomach bug I came back

from like the Philippines or something like that and uh it actually reminded me that any kind of when your gut is compromised in any way and you have a leaky gut that radically triggers your immune system and my HSC CRP was like six or seven or something. I recovered really fast. Uh but

uh and that's only because I had a little bacterial gastroenterteritis or maybe viral entritis or something but I recovered very fast from that. But uh but I think a lot of people suffer from chronic inflammation. And I think one way to address that the e the fastest

and easiest way to address that is with a sardine fast maybe and and just with improving your your diet carbohydrate restriction and then periodic fasting too uh I feel significantly contributes to my like non-detectable uh HSCP and also my genetics are such that uh I have a genetic marker

that basically indicates that my body produces low amounts of TNF alpha uh which came up in my genetics and two tests. So I I do tend to have just lower inflammatory markers just according to my genetics, but also I can have pretty robust, you know, inflammation flare-ups from time to time

for for different things. And um and that's why I've also advocated for using fasting and therapeutic ketosis situationally. And this has been brought to my attention because some people have, you know, it could be herpes simplex virus or or shingles or limes disease. Uh Tim Ferrris

comes to mind because now he's public about it, but years ago he was not. But we communicated through, you know, texts and things like that that he was suffering from limes disease and the only thing that really worked and moved the needle for him was uh ketogenic diet but therapeutic

fasting. You know, he did exogenous ketones and everything too. Uh so if people you know have periodic flare-ups and we all harbor different you know infections and that could be viral that could be you know uh mold or bacterial and and or just being a cold or covid or whatever um and

situationally or sometimes like I just feel like inflamed or just I'm coming down with something and I don't know what it is but then I was like okay tomorrow I'm just going to start my three-day fast and then boom nothing like my glands will get swollen and then boom in a day or two I feel

fine and I feel like that quickly nipped it in the bud. So whatever thing was in my body, it just you deactivated it. And we do know, and that's actually why we have research now at Moffet Cancer Center, that this state of ketosis augments the adaptive immune system. The adaptive immune

system, there's the innate immune system that generally keeps us healthy and and it's kind of functioning in the background. And your adaptive immune system is kind of like the Navy Seals that go after and target any kind of uh infection that could be creeping into the body or whatever. So,

uh we do know from work from multiple labs that being in a state of ketosis and it correlates with the elevation of BHB enhances the adaptive immune system. And that's that's, you know, kind of if I'm honest, that's why I do it. I keep I keep I pull the trigger if you will

if I feel something coming on and that's why I I I don't put it into my schedule the fast but I I kind of have it on a sliding scale where I can you know use it situationally. Perfect. Well,

let's talk about practical takeaways so people can do this in a way that's going to get them results including eating sardines. I think people don't like to eat sardines, but if they can embrace the weirdness and get some great results, that's going to be extra exciting for them.

I want to ask about ketones. Does MCT oil boost ketones? Yeah, it does. I use MCT every day and um MCT oil goes right to the liver. Uh unlike longchain fats get packaged into kyomicrons and they have a more of a ciruitous route to get into circulation. Uh but MCT oil, you consume them via

the hpatic port oral circulation. They go right to the liver and you start producing ketones. Also, what I did not know at the time until we did brain metabolomics is that when you consume MCTs, they get into circulation and they cross the bloodb brain barrier. So they convert to ketones.

Uh MCTs will be transformed into ketones. Not all of them, but some of them. and also uh MCT fat and mediumchain fatty acids will get into circulation and then they can cross the blood brain barrier. I did not know that until we fed we did some studies and then we take out the hippocampus and we do

metabolomics and it's like oh it's like full of MCT and it's like had to go back because I don't even think that was in the literature but now I think I mean that was 15 years ago but now I think

we largely know that MCTs can car so when you take MCTs you're elevating ketones that's beneficial and then the mediumchain fatty acids too can can be used by the brain as a source of energy but it's it's kind of small relative to exogenous ketones. So just keep that in mind but still

beneficial. So can I have a few tablespoons of MCT oil if I want to do fasting? If I don't want to do bardine fasting, can that help me reduce visceral fat, reduce insulin, I'm still having some fat? Yeah, I would say be cautious, right? Because even me, I I'm a I consume a lot of MCT,

but if I do it on an empty stomach, I still have problems with it and I have a large tolerance to MCT. However, my tolerance for MCT is vastly improved if I take it with some kind of protein or

uh or mix it with some other kind of fat. So, so for example, this may sound gross, but like uh if I'm having a can of sardines, I'll maybe put it into a bowl and then put a can of u or

put put like a tablespoon of MCT oil, but also a tablespoon or two of apple cider vinegar and I kind of stir it up and it's kind of tangy and the apple cider vinegar totally neutralizes any fish taste. So, so that's for people who don't like fishy fishy smell and taste, that'll help. Um,

and that's kind of like my go-to, right? So, I'll do um yeah, can of sardines, uh MCT oil, and apple cider vinegar seems to be very and the apple cider vinegar too, the acid from the apple cider vinegar

tends to delay gastric absorption. Uh because when the food's in the in the stomach and it moves to the the dadum through the pyloric sphincter that your your body has to uh sort of adjust the pH and and you know secrete barb and things. So it's sort of uh the acidity of of what's in the

stomach will delay the entry of that food into the small intestine where it gets absorbed and then that's important because that'll impact the rate of rise of the amino acids and other things into circulation and if you attenuate that rate of rise that will then further reduce uh or prevent

the rise of insulin. So you can further suppress insulin by sort of you know using the using fat and uh and also apple cider vinegar tends to uh sort of delay gastric absorption in a way that reduces the the attenuates the entry of the nutrients into circulation that would otherwise

like trigger a larger insulin response. Okay, makes sense. So the idea is to lower your insulin any which way possible and and a ketogenic diet is a great way to do that. typically not eating too many carbohydrates, which goes to foods because, you know, there's so many different ways of eating

this way. You know, some people talk about just eating one food, sardines, beef, eggs, butter, MCT oil, but as a neuroscientist who studies this for decades, what do you think are the best five foods everyone should eat every day? H. Well, I would definitely say if we're going to like the most

nutrientdense superfood in the world, that would probably be beef liver would probably be like the the highest. And that's sad cuz nobody likes that. I know, but they should try it. Although I tend to default to um to like chicken liver. My wife's from Hungary, so we have heart and liver

every I think we're having it tonight. We have it every week. Uh right. But with with liver, just be careful with uh you can get hypervitaminosis. So you get toxic levels of vitamin A if you eat it a lot. So yeah, like once a week is fine. Uh so yeah, beef, liver, and beef, sardines, eggs, and

uh you know, so they're all animal-based carnivore diets. So right there, you're not going to have any nutrient deficiencies because even liver has like vitamin C in it. Some people may, you know, come down on the carnivore diet because there's no fiber and you'll be deficient in vitamin C,

but nobody got scurvy eating carnivore diet. And I think liver and and uh meat, especially uh fresh meat, if you don't if you have like a little bit rare raw uh heating heating meat and liver really high can can neutralize the vitamin C. But yeah, so you asked for five foods, I think, right? So

just fish in general. So yeah. Yeah, sardines, uh, liver. Well, beef, liver, beef, sardines, uh, eggs. Eggs are like a extreme powerhouse. And wow, this is very carnivore ccentric, but, uh, I am off, for me personally, uh, I tolerate broccoli really well. So, uh, I don't eat a whole

lot of it, so I'll just buy like the organic. And what I do, I I cut the tips off, like the fuette part, and I chew up the other parts for my for my dogs. So, like the fiber that tends to help

them poop. Uh, and I do believe that there's a lot of benefits to broccoli, sulfurophane and things like that. We do some research in the lab with sulfurophane. Um, so I am of the opinion that if you're eating a big steak, uh, it's probably good to eat it with a little bit of broccoli.

I mean it could be like a garnish kind of thing, but I think the uh the the the micronutrients and the various antioxidants in broccoli also help to neutralize uh uh the the heterosyclic amines.

So when you cook meat, you you do generate some some potentially toxic uh intermediates and they're called heterosylic amines. And but if you have a little bit of broccoli with it, doesn't take a lot, like it just could be a small amount, you're kind of neutralizing that. So,

so beef is like amazing. It's a it's a like a superfood and you could actually make it more nutritious and beneficial and and attenuate any negative effects by just having a little bit of broccoli with it. So, that's uh my thoughts and I think there's science to support that. Some

people may say, but I think if you're eating a lot of cruciferous vegetables and a lot of uh a very heavy plant-based diet, yeah, you have oxalates, you have various plant chemicals that for me personally, like uh it just it just tends to blow it doesn't doesn't help me anymore. But so

I tend to uh I have, you know, apple, berries, and a little bit of broccoli. um and it doesn't and just enough to get maybe 20 to 30 grams of fiber at the most and what I just mentioned there. So

that would be 50 grams of protein or 50 grams of carbohydrates from the foods I just mentioned. But uh but about a third of that is fiber, right? So it's it's going to have a very minimal impact on

your glucose levels and it will allow you to stay in to ketosis. So So the fifth food would e either be wild blueberries or broccoli and it's a tossup. So, I'll let people decide from there. I would choose the blueberries and not the broccoli, but that's just like my preference. Not that

I eat blueberries. I do, too. Yeah. Yeah. I would say that you're generally more a heavy carnivore meat-based diet and adding in some, you know, veggies or adding in some fruit as necessary. And, um, you know, in terms of the nutrients that we need, we can get a lot of them, as you just said,

from liver. Not that anyone likes it. Sardines, not that anyone likes it. It seems like the stuff that we don't like is what sardines people like. Yeah. Well, it's an acquired taste. So, you have to search out, you know, the gourmet sardines first. So, that could be, you know,

and some of them will be like $10 a can, but they taste really good. I can promise you. And then, yeah, beef liver is an acquired taste, but I'm telling you to give chicken liver a try and cook

it, cook the liver in like bacon fat and just put salt and pepper on chicken liver. And I mean, it's like if you like pate, so it's like pate. The pate is, you know, most people like pate. It's

very like I avoided pate just because it sounded kind of gross. But when you try it, it it's most people put it on bread, right? But you could have a steak and put pate on top of steak, which I have

done. So, or cod liver, which sounds crazy, on top of steak, but that's like a very that's a nutrient powerhouse right there. Don't knock it till you try it. I have tried sardines. I do like it, but I have a carnival keto community and people are like, I don't want to do sardines. It's

disgusting. Oh, mackerel. And I've had mackerel. Try mackerel. Yes. Yes. So, you know, when you're traveling and people try to do carnival and they think, "Oh my god, it's so hard to take a snack." Sardines, mackerel, any fish that's canned, the highest quality, so you're not having the heavy

metals and mercury. Cuz we know some people, they poo poo sardines because they say, "Oh, it's got all of these bad things about it." But if something is working based on data and evidence, it can help people. Um, final question for you. If people want to do sardine fasting,

but they don't eat a healthy diet the other days, do you think it's dangerous to do sardines or eating more fat if they eat carbs the other days? Well, that will depend on, you know, their their blood work and their biomarkers. And I think that's going to be important. And and a lot

of people get scared away from sardines and fish because of the heavy metals. But I sent you my heavy metals. I don't know if you saw that. And it was like super low mercury and lead. And with me

eating sometimes like, you know, five to 10 grams or five to 10 cans of sardines a day and a couple pounds of fish per day, like I should like I'm eating literally like like 10 servings of fish per day for years. So, my heavy metals should be off the chart. It's probably because I'm choosing

sardines and mackerel, but uh and my heavy metals are are very low. So uh so I would I I think I also have very good detoxification pathways and I also take alphalapoic acid. So that is good kind of helps with a detox pathway. Uh but I I see no problem with that with the scenario that you

just mentioned. Um but I do encourage people to test right. So um yeah, testing is is absolutely like important because uh some people that I've been in contact with or correspondence with have started different diets and and some red flags come up uh in the blood work uh that that should

be addressed, you know, through manipulate, you know, through adjusting their diet. So um what's the red flags? Uh red some red flags would be uh I've actually seen like low calcium, low magnesium um and uh in kids like low carnitine is really low which is

uh so carnitine carnitine asal transferase uh is transports the fats into the mitochondria and when you're ramping up fat metabolism really high you could deplete your carnitine. So carnitine comes from meat car. So car the word carnitine. So if you're eating a lot of meat, you tend to not.

But like dairybased ketogenic diets, we see that. And then some electrolyte abnormalities. So that's why you do want to get a lot of salts when you So don't be afraid of salt, especially the first two or 3 weeks. The renan angotensin system tends to like be very much in flux and should level out in

about 3 to 4 weeks. But you need to be getting some grams of sodium per day. Like you know, everybody's anti salt, but yeah, you need to get sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium into the diet. And uh and also for some people I've seen like their liver uh their transaminases go up. Uh

so AD, ALT, GGGT will go up, but that's just the liver is working harder for for beta oxidation of these fatty acids and that puts strain on the liver. But the liver is very the liver is very resilient. So I wouldn't worry about a transient elevation in your transaminases. Uh but yeah,

these are these are some things that kind of can show up from time to time. Uh but the salt the salt's a real issue and if the sodium levels drop when you start a diet because suppressing the hormone insulin has a diuretic effect and what we call a naturetic effect. Naturic is that you you

dump out a lot of sodium and if you don't get that sodium into the diet, you can experience things like orthostatic hypotension and and you basically you get brain fog and then you just feel a little bit dizzy and you're just not and then you just drink hydration uh and salts that could

be like element. Element's a good product or uh the ketone salts which is sodium, you know, BHB, sodium, uh calcium, magnesium. So So that's you're killing two birds with one stone. you're getting your electrolytes and elevating ketone. So, uh I I advocate for that and that will that will mitigate

largely the the the the keto flu that some people say they get. I never had that, but some people when they start a ketogenic diet, they'll have the keto flu and that could be largely mitigated just by hydration, salts or and especially BHB salts. Brilliant. Um this is really the

last question. What do you think is the worst food that people are eating on a highfat ketogenic diet that's really stopping their results on a highfat ketogenic diet? A food that they're eating. So, I would avoid any any boxed food that's marketed as keto for one thing. And um I would actually

have to say I hate to say this, but I would just say like dairy in regard to prescription ketogenic diets for the things that we treat. Sometimes they're, you know, they're they're not getting a response and it's just like, okay, knock out the dairy. I hate saying that because I love dairy,

but and then boom, they'll they'll uh and they might have a mild dairy allergy and that could be affecting their ketones. So, but uh and also nuts too. Some people think that, you know, a bag of cashews, for example, you can can down that. And some people say, "I'm not losing weight on

a ketogenic diet." And I would say, "Well, share exactly what you're eating." And it's always like, "Well, I have I have nuts." Well, how many nuts? It's like, well, I get the bag and I start eating. Uh so so you can doubt a lot of calories from, you know, nuts. So, I would say

nut syrup or like dairy too can be problematic in some people, but largely speaking like ketogenic foods are pretty pretty healthy unless they're but I would avoid just ultrarocessed ketogenic foods that are packaged. Awesome. Well, I'm going to leave all the links for your work in

the show notes. I just want to say a big thank you because sometimes science and the work that you do is very complex and I think that this conversation is going to help people make it simple because simple changes lead to results. Um, thank you so much for your time and keep doing

great work. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. And um, yeah, if people want to learn more, they can go to keoutrition.org or metabolic health initiative, which we have a podcast on there and an ACCME accredited platform. So, we you know, you can get CME credits uh, if you're

interested in everything that I'm talking about. So, metabolic health initiative and then, uh, keoutrition.org.org. Perfect. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Check out this one with Louisa Nicola. It is everything about how to protect your brain,

creatine, and exactly what to eat and what to avoid for optimal brain health. See you next week.