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2 1 live. They have a heart like a net loaded with wickedness, not just witches but women. Therefore, women are more infected than men. Thus, the heresy of witches, not of sorcerers. Tonight we will understand some real stories again.
Explore the hidden history of witches through real trial cases, focusing on their knowledge, social status, and the myths surrounding them.
Key Takeaways
- Witchcraft accusations were often rooted in social, political, and personal conflicts rather than actual crimes.
- Women healers with medical knowledge were frequently targeted and misunderstood as witches.
- Historical records provide valuable insights into the lives and trials of accused witches beyond myths.
- The Malleus Maleficarum significantly influenced the criminalization of witches in history.
- Accused witches faced severe social stigma, exile, and legal penalties, impacting their lives profoundly.
What the video covers
- The video explores historical perceptions of witches, emphasizing women as primary targets of witchcraft accusations.
- Monia Montechiarini presents research based on manuscripts, city council records, and contracts revealing real stories behind witch trials.
- The Malleus Maleficarum is discussed as a foundational text shaping the criminal profile of accused witches.
- The focus is on understanding the motives behind accusations rather than victimhood or torture details.
- A case study of Frau Maria from Austria highlights a healer accused of witchcraft due to her medical practices and social status.
- The video explains the social and legal consequences of being accused, including exile and wearing the Sanbenito garment.
- It discusses the role of the evil eye and how accusations often stemmed from personal vendettas or political rivalries.
- The narrative includes how witches were identified by physical traits or nicknames, reflecting early forms of social stigma.
- The video touches on the presence of male church figures defending accused witches, showing complexity in historical attitudes.
- Herbal remedies and phytotherapy knowledge of witches are highlighted as part of their misunderstood expertise.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction to Witchcraft and Historical Context
- 04:55Understanding the Accusations and Social Motives
- 09:49Case Study: Frau Maria and Her Medical Practice
- 14:34Consequences of Witchcraft Accusations
- 18:24Witches’ Animals and Cultural Beliefs
- 18:32Historical Documents and Personal Diaries
- 22:41Public Nature of Witch Trials
- 31:10Herbal Remedies and Witchcraft Knowledge
- 39:23Social Stigma and Identification of Witches
- 44:37Defenders of Witches and Complex Historical Views
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
In this beautiful episode on Ali del Bruco. Sus Te gloriam. Good evening and welcome back to this new appointment with the web media Ali del Bruco, and welcome back to our friend Monia Montechiarini, who will delight us again tonight with her truly
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singular content. Good evening, Monia. Good evening. Good evening. Good evening to one and all.
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So, by now our, let's say, our friends — no, "audience" is a terrible word, I don't like it. Our friends at home who follow the format have gotten to know you, and when you are away a bit longer than usual, they write to me saying
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they want to see you back on our live broadcasts. So, tonight we will continue to do in-depth studies. You, as usual, do your research and always find very interesting stories. Let's try to understand at this point who witches are and how history describes
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them, and surely you have found some interesting story to bring to our attention. Go ahead, Monia.
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Yes. Well, good evening meanwhile to everyone, and to you too, Francesco. Thanks as always for this beautiful opportunity. It had been a while, actually, that I was away, because I was traveling around Europe doing some research and, obviously, now the mode
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that automatically clicks in my head when I find a new trial case is to say, "Hmm, this could interest the people who follow the Ali del Bruco channel." And so, based on that, I already find a way to filter, and this evening, we
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will understand exactly through the words. You know that I always like to tell facts almost in the first person and through the investigations that we can conduct in what are the manuscripts — manuscripts, therefore handwritten parchments, or city council records, or
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sometimes even deeds, contracts, because sometimes we even find remedies there that have little to do with judicial matters, but in reality are magic-therapeutic remedies. This is to immediately introduce a bit of what we heard at the beginning. That sentence
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is not mine, but a sentence transcribed from what is the "Malleus Maleficarum," the famous manual written by two Dominican jurists — which is the work I do, that of a jurist — and that they actually sealed, through questions, inquiries... the profile that we could
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call the criminal one of these women. Now, the perspective — you have gotten to know me — the perspective I adopt is not one of victimhood or, uh, focusing on how many hours she was tortured or what types of torture were used.
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Actually, it is an objective fact, I have to talk about it, I have to report it briefly in the records when I do the transcriptions, but we like to study the real motives behind the accusations and above all, to understand a bit why
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these women, who are defined by the royals of the United Kingdom as capable of committing abominable crimes, what did they know how to do? What was the reason, uh, for which they were suspected in the first place? So, a
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sworn enemy, a neighbor, uh, a politician from the opposing faction, therefore people who managed to exploit the generic, general accusation, or rather of witchcraft, as another very important historian on the international scene, Brian Levak, also states in his texts, so let's see a
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little. So, this time I discovered in Austria, near Salzburg, a woman who perfectly embodies the witch's toolkit because she is a foreigner, she is of medium-high social status, she knew how to practice medicine and we will see.
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She focused on eye diseases. I'll open a parenthesis, I'll give a little spoiler, eye diseases are also linked to the evil eye. The evil eye which, as we know well by now, struck when triggered precisely by witches or, in
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any case, sometimes even by endless chains of accusations where the main witch accused (and we are not talking about suspects, the judicial system was less protective) was already a defendant and therefore was subjected to a whole series of questions that
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immediately placed her at the center of the trial, with many consequences, the first of which was confiscation. For example, what happens? This woman is called Frau Maria, so "Frau" which means woman, which was given anyway to people of a social status other than
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low. Maria, Maria because she was a healer who had escaped after healing about 15-16 people. I cannot be truly precise about the number, even if I have testimonies, but sometimes the manuscripts are damaged or the pages are moved. This woman had healed a
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whole series of people in the lower Friuli area who went to her with eye problems and headaches. She, through certain herbs and certain movements, actually managed to heal these people, but she charged for it and so the fee
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was considered too high, particularly by a man who I actually discovered had even stalked her for a certain period, and here we also understand, yes, the implications — today we would say he was a stalker. Yes, so much so that he
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also commits a crime when he reaches her in Salzburg and is taken back, sent by the henchmen, as it is written, back to his hometown. Luckily, because this woman was accused of being a witch, the word is written Exen, here Exen, so
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witch in German, and she had the characteristic of being called the foreigner because she came from Italy, or our regions anyway. So, one of the characteristics behind the faces of the witches often hidden by history is also why we sometimes read too quickly,
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right? If we search on Google today, we'll take a look, we'll see the witches the web suggests to us, right?
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This woman was actually seduced by a soldier, so she had even followed him when the trial ended with a declaration of being responsible and guilty of heresy, so she could no longer practice her medicine, her remedies, sorry, and
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therefore had to be exiled. Being exiled was not so simple, because let’s imagine completely changing cities, changing language, changing habits. Furthermore, she was forced to wear a garment and the signs of infamy.
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The Sanbenito was a characteristic garment where, if you were lucky, there wasn't the pointed hat with flames and demons drawn on it. Uh, this woman was accused again of having practiced sabbaths where Satan appeared at the center. And another peculiarity of this
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trial — which is very similar to a case from the Lower Friuli area in the province of Udine — is that this devil who appears in the center only later takes on male features. Because, during the first rituals, she states that he
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appeared in the form of an abbess; that is, a woman, a female figure. This female figure who welcomed various people, so much so that the woman herself would testify and involve other women, other people in the trial, calling them not by their names. We are
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born today, we are given a first name, a second, a third, a nickname, an ID card. Back then, it wasn't like that, so these people were born and took on names, and we find in the manuscripts not the surname, but wife of, daughter
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of. In this case, she calls various people and also calls them by their nicknames. So we read, and here is another characteristic that also defines the Malleus Maleficarum. That is, calling them by a characteristic physical trait: the lame one, the
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one-eyed, the skinny one, the pot-bellied one, well there are many; the redhead, when things went well, the curly-haired one, or the Roman one. So you see that this is also a piece of data and what, let's say, is called
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body shaming today; so, and we actually find it in the manuscripts, because, well, it really wasn't... they weren't just appellations. I mean, I... I found one who had a slightly more graceful appellation, who was a courtesan witch, an honest courtesan, therefore of a
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certain level who had different clients, and she was called Luna, but it's a fictional name that she was able to give herself by virtue of her position because
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Again this woman, so what happens? Fortunately she is retried, but fortunately she is completely exonerated. And this time the inquisitors who arrived in Austria, but were Italian, managed to track down the people who had had her subjected to the
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trial, and condemned them. So for once, I mean for once, these are those times when I say "Oh, thank goodness this time she was also saved, even if she didn't have a good time, good moments.
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Let's remember that we are in the 17th, no, the 16th century in this case, so let's say it took me a while to translate it. The luck was that there were parts in legal Latin and parts also in Italian because, anyway, she
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wasn't exactly...well, German...I studied it for 3 years, but I still struggle, and it's not really that obvious or easy to learn. So we see this woman was actually an eye doctor, effectively, because she especially treated eyes. Now, among familiars, if
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we recall, we did an episode where we also talked about witches 'animals. Yes. Sometimes in these pamphlets that were mostly from the United Kingdom, witches appeared, so a sort of booklet, right?
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Be careful if you see a woman doing this thing. Be careful if you see three women who are on a wild boar, there's one riding a boar, but above all be careful of women who have animals with them. Among the animals, some woodcuts,
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some engravings have basilisks. Now, a mythological animal, some are actually studying dinosaurs that could have recalled it, etc., in the Mongolia area . The question is, regarding the Basilisk, how does it connect to witches, to the evil eye? Basilisk,
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just one look could turn people to stone and kill them, but there was a solution. This solution, let's say there was an antidote, and the antidote was the smell of weasel urine. Ah, the myth tells us this, and so hence
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also the ability of some people to practice, along with the magical art, also the creation of scents, perfumes, the fragrant ointments of Donna Prudenzia. Yes, where there was, certainly, there weren't the same elements that we have, because, well, we have jojoba oil,
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we're all luckier now for our hair and so on, lavender oil, uh, but if nothing else, they were genuine. And there, encountering another woman, she was called the" shaggy redhead, "so she even had two identifying traits; she had red hair, and we know that red hair
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has always been attributed with a strong, powerful magical significance. We could even do an entire episode just on that. Let's interview Councilor Ross too.
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Why not? Why not? And this woman, uh, was also limping, so how could she hide ? It was truly difficult, materially impossible; but at the same time, it made her a noto–so it's written" noted "–witch. Everyone here knew her
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, they took her as a reference point, and this is another element, let's say, that isn't exactly easy to find inside history books, also because I don't know what history books are like now, but when I was studying, in middle
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school and in elementary and high school, it's not like we studied the Inquisition that much, and we certainly focused on legal data, data that was, let's say, more elementary. Exactly.
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Well, well, this is quite interesting. It makes me think of a question, that is, where can you find witch stories?
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Excuse me, I mean, if not in history books. Well, look, um, I found the first trial case right in an archive.
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It was an archive, a diocesan archive, where a whole series of files appear. I still call them dossiers, a legacy of my old profession, so big books like this, and you find them meanwhile in public archives, but also in private
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ones. In Europe, there are some cases, and then besides the trial files, there are municipal resolutions, for example, or letters, or, as in this case, diaries. This diary we read in the—I chose it on purpose because it's written in the own hand of a woman
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accused of heresy and witchcraft, and right in the second line we read" in her own hand, "this paper that—I mean , and this is the handwriting of an Italian woman accused of being a witch.
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Even in this case, at the moment, wait, what's written at the moment of No, here it's put on which line are you on?
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The first. The first at the moment. No, oh well. God of beauty of the year, because she —her name is Bellezza, this woman.
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Well, it would be nice to hurt. See? to hurt. Why? Because this handwriting uh in the last writing, in the last line it says" been scraped. "This woman had been tortured on her wrists before writing.
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Yes. So, my job is really to dig through things, right? Sometimes I can't quite get it, so I ask paleographers, people who obviously do this and only this in a masterful way, but you see how alive history is, right? I always say, I mean
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, the idea I always had of a historian was someone who, let's say, studied the past, but not necessarily in correlation with the present. Actually, fortunately, that has changed now, so we study the past precisely to better understand the present; perhaps it
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would be nice to avoid the horrors of the past, no? In this very delicate period, but in tracing another characteristic of witches, because as they say, right, as I was saying, as they say, history teaches but has no
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students, no pupils, unfortunately. Yes, however, by always sketching out the profile, we can also group them by characteristics, right?
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Not just psychosomatic ones, but also based on character, on being more rebellious, being one of a kind, not wanting to, I don't know, submit to certain rules, like wearing the veil, which was mandatory for married women, the spinsters, as I found written in
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the latest manuscript from Emilia Romagna, and, uh, also their work. Let's imagine there's a woman named Margherita. She had a business; her husband had left her. She had four children with two different husbands.
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The first had died in the war. In short , let's also remember what the context was; this other one had run off to Piran with someone else. As soon as he heard the witch trials were starting, and he had already, in my opinion,
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denounced his wife. But she kept working, rolled up her sleeves, and continued as a dyer, so she dyed fabrics. The procedure for dyeing fabrics isn't quite like today, right?
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We buy the little packet. I do these experiments every now and then, eh. I buy a washing machine dye packet, then the machine has to be washed 10 times to get the color out; but when you do it with historical groups, when we do
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educational work, we have specialists who take madder, indigo powder, lapis lazuli, and other roots to color them.
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It's not easy. So, she had a series of tubs that she used and would also boil.
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What happens? But this woman had quite a personality, I mean, she is described in documents as very authoritarian and authoritative. And we are in the 1500s.
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Margherita, despite the name, was actually more of a thistle than a daisy , in my opinion. She was truly tenacious, stubborn. Sometimes when a woman is reported, she doesn't hide under the table or run away; no, she goes armed—the manuscript even says
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so—armed with manure, and with a full bucket, she smears their whole front door. So let's imagine it, right? Also because the person who reported her wasn't that far away, and the act of using manure also happened in Rome.
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Another woman was named Fiore; this isn't, eh, a coincidence, because reputation was truly important back then, so much so that the first questions were always about asking:" But have you heard of this woman? "Does she go to mass, does she attend
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catechism? I consider her a good Catholic. In one testimony it is written and in various depictions and descriptions it is often written that, eh, during the trials, since these women were very cunning and witches were defined as" defective women, "what
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would happen? That, eh, they were subjected to tests. And who participated in these tests? Three women of good reputation who, likewise, when they were arrested and suspected of this abominable crime—in reality, they hadn't eaten children or anything else—anyway, they were completely
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shaved. And these women did it in a, in a slide, in an image. There is a specific representation that is obviously later, not medieval, but it depicts the scene well. And why was it women who took care of, quote-unquote,
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the other women? Because they couldn't be seduced and wouldn't fall, um, for the charms, we might say, of the witches, their arts. Seductive ones, because crying, spinning, and deceiving are typical of women, according to the Dominicans of the time, and therefore
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woman-to-woman it was harder to ordain. But we see that these unique women manage in some way to save themselves.
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But the investigation into one's reputation was this the image you were referring to? No, it's one where there is...well, I don't know. This here is a typical scene, let's imagine. Eh, this one mh you see two women, obviously this one
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is later, and everyone around is watching, because these operations, like the trials, were public; they weren't in private chambers, despite the often delicate topics, right? And so you see the women checking her; they have removed her bonnet or veil, or the headpiece that
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was mandatory, while others look into the registers. Besides finding names written down, like Semidea, Belisandra, or" the Greek one, "we also find a whole series of descriptions in the registers where expenses are noted, such as biscuits, good drinks, shoes,
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clothing. Sometimes they were recorded, like for instance in Stirling in Scotland, they cost even more um the pyres and and the cleanup after the burning, not to mention calling and transporting the executioner. And a historian says this while commenting on
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the register from Stirling, so much so that in that town, witch trials were suspended for a while precisely because they cost too much. So the inhabitants made a sort of, let's say, complaint.
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The inhabitants, obviously, of a certain standing, because the commoners would go and eat and yes. Therefore, beyond the trials, there is a whole series of, there is a world behind the identities, including the world of remedies. Then you asked me, returning
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to where I conduct my research, uh I go below where they were imprisoned, where we find carvings, or I perform a cross-reference, right? Because to verify if the testimonies might have something plausible. Obviously, here, this is one of the places where I have
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been most often. By the way, here the stories of witchcraft, stories connect with legends. The first castle is Dunnottar Castle and it is in fact in Scotland. And here there is a whole series of explanations, of tales about
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the actual presence of some witches who were accused of having fed, having fed on children. But there is the legend of a woman who supposedly lost her child during a storm while she had gone to get food, and then she threw herself
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off the cliff, and there is the legend of this ghost that in certain periods of the year you can still hear crying.
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Yes, these are places where it is important to go because you manage to make—there, this is the whole path that then leads, and she would have fallen from the front side right onto the North Sea. Obviously, why do I do
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this work? Here, I am here too. And these are, this is in the heart of the Highlands. Here is one of the areas where women disappeared. Perhaps I tried, but I didn't make it. I was tired. And there are the famous stone
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circles, the ones where women—and we also have Bessie here, Bessie claims to cure people who came from far away, even with licorice and ginger root. We are in the 1600s. But when the inquisitor asks her," But from whom did
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you learn? "This is Dublin. When did you learn, uh, from whom did you learn these remedies, since you cannot read and you cannot write?" She could not answer, except by claiming that she had learned everything from the Queen of
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the Fairies. the Queen of the fairies, whom she describes as a figure dressed in the color of heather, the color of the earth, who manages to appear through small holes in these stone circles or in the ground, so much so
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that the judges would even state how long or how deep the hole was. Yes, they give you a whole series of technical details to investigate, to carry out the necessary assessments to put on record, and it’s not as if the
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fairy, the Queen of the fairies, had appeared to her out of thin air. She had met a spirit, a gentleman named Thomas, who in the records had actually died during the war that was ongoing at that time, and it was he who had seen
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her in desperate conditions with her sick husband and her daughter who was about to die of hunger. They only had one animal, a cow that always gave milk and to which they gave fodder, but she was in such bad shape that this spirit
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led her into this circle, where the queen then welcomed her and explained all the herbal remedies to her. Now, unfortunately, the fact that even noble people from Edinburgh or from the larger cities had gone there and had been healed was not even accepted as
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testimony. And in Edinburgh, for example, eh well, but this thing is actually very interesting. Who could the Queen of the fairies be? What kind of appar—I mean , today we are almost facing a Marian apparition, a being described with such
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delicacy and such conviction, also because the first question is, you know my professional bias, right? It was, okay, she must have taken mushrooms or substances like LSD, jimsonweed—later we will even show you the seeds, you know, of the jimsonweed. There are
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women who went down the devil's weed, belladonna, jimsonweed, datura. Well, you know? But in fact, in the report where the remedies she used are listed, because later the staff said they conducted investigations, uh especially since there were laws that
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specified when you go to the witch's house and check carefully that she doesn't run into the bedroom, because she goes to the bedroom to hide everything she has and uses And there is no jimsonweed there. She never writes about having
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taken remedies or potions, also because Amanita muscaria. Yes, but in the investigations, even women from the nearby area, during certain periods, but we've already talked about it, are reported by their husbands because their feet are stained green and their
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skirts—let's remember how the women were dressed, right? they had these very long skirts, petticoats and everything else, and they were stained with moss or they were purple like heather when it's in bloom. This data is important for us because it also
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helps us reconstruct the era in which the events actually took place. Mh. Because if a report tells me—I don't know, who was the Greek woman—she had gone out on St. John's Eve and had gathered the dew from the St. John's
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wort. And it's clear what the reference period is. If we then find, uh, I don't know who wrote it to me, even a woman accused of being an adulteress who even sells her soul in exchange for shillings and is defined as a "poor
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soul" because, because she only fed on the leaves of certain herbs dried, probably with a mortar, with some similar procedure; so, uh, these are all elements that help us to, yes, to study the crime scene a bit, to
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investigate whether these women actually enjoyed a good reputation or not and what the network was, because we are heading into...it's the week leading up to March 8th, right? And we had already held a meeting in November that commemorated these very moments.
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Here, this is St. John's wort oil. In Scotland, it is called St. John's blood because it really has that color, and it is said that Saint Columba, who was the saint who then arrived and made Scotland Christian, tried to make
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Scotland Christian and he banned it, he banned its use. But, uh, I use St. John's wort oil frequently.
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And why do you use it? Now let's reverse the interview. For a lot of things, and I have found, among other things, that for example for herpes it is particularly effective , for example, at least it has that
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effect on me. For shingles, for burns, yes, for burns and scalds it's incredibly effective.
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It's truly a cure-all. Yes. Uh, but these women also used it for divination. Ah, and for, uh, yes. predicting the future , right? to predict the future and understand if they would find their beloved in the coming year.
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Ah! Uh, they would light these bundles, I call them, of combustible material, uh, even dried peat.
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Yes. and they used it as a sort of fumigation; depending on the direction of the smoke, they would or would not find love. Now, unfortunately, I found a case of a woman who had remained alone and every year the smoke went in
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the wrong direction and she was accused of being a witch because she worked as a midwife. Actually, she even had a scapular; she wore one with a holy card inside and a prayer scroll, that is, a small piece of paper with prayers on it
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. Why midwives? Because they were close to what we also call*malis femmini*, that is, women's ailments, yes. People had a certain familiarity with them; their patients trusted them, they also felt less modesty in revealing, in describing an illness.
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And in this, for example, there was a woman—I don't remember, I have an immense archive now, see—whom she had , uh, treated with, uh, the...So, the stone, I'll tell you now, the bloodstone, hematite, with hematite and with the berries of wild roses, a woman
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who had lost too much blood after childbirth. But this woman unfortunately passed away because, in fact, I spoke about it with a friend of mine who is a doctor and neurologist, and this poor woman suffered from postpartum depression, no one diagnosed
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her, and so the culprit was the witch, or rather the midwife who had delivered her baby. According to the accusations, obviously. So we see that the panorama is truly vast to uh to manage to actually understand who these people
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are, who these women accused mostly are . Well done, eh? You had disappeared. I knew you would be a little elf, you are .
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I went to retrieve here in my in my little mineral archive the hematite. Eh, it was rendered, in fact it is ferrous, if we look at it, right? we use it. The use of hematite is also written not only in Dioscorides, but
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also in some manuscripts uh of friars in Provence, for example. I should also have a pyramid of hematite set aside, but I don't know where I put it right now.
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So the remedies are truly many and we see. I had noted down something that I particularly cared about and that I wanted to read to you. Oh! So, to also understand who it is, because beyond the witch, there is an entire network
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around of people judging her. The Malleus Maleficarum, that technical text, "The Hammer of Witches," establishes that sworn enemies cannot be heard during the trial; however, when they interrogated, and when they kidnapped, when they arrested a witch, the first thing they indicate is: "
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Listen to the friends" because, that friends have a loose tongue, that is, when they know something about their arts, they cannot hide it. This is a This is a printed text of the Malleus Maleficarum.
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Yes, best known, in fact, as the hammer of witches. among the various remedies then, because we often hear people say the to trace, to tell of witches, they were poor, hidden, they begged for alms , but we don't focus on the results. So
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, there is another legal case where this woman is released because she administered treatments with good results and these are other documents that we find. Um, let's remember that many, I gave a lecture just Sunday, uh, and we started, we started. Come on,
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Arabic manuscripts. Ah, are you all women? Are you all women? There's a couple of men, but we're almost all women. Yes, yes, yes. The sorcerers still have to come forward, let's say, also from Spain, from Germany, it's a
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nice group, I think they are here too watching us tonight and we arrived at understanding how some remedies like ivy were transcribed incorrectly and how then those same ones. Here. Ah, here is Cristina too.
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Let's involve her in the next live stream. I'll open a parenthesis. Why not? With pleasure. Do something together so we can delve deeper.
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Yes. Always remember that, in any case, I am your friend. Always, always. Eh, then there is a whole series of women, however, who are called to trial because they are poisoners. And among all these women, do you know which one
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struck me? It's the one who recounts how she managed to elude the controls, because actually she had powders that she put into specific objects, amulets, rings, and that, uh, she used to stun her more violent clients because, besides being accused of witchcraft,
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she was also a harlot. She claims she would give them a nice poppy potion , poppy juice, and I would put them to sleep a bit. Yes, right. She says, "Be careful, because whoever longs to escape the hands of lust should flee
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the bait of all evils, which is pleasure, since from its sweetness follows gall and the bitterness of repentance." I mean, listen to those important words. Well, this is one of the, wait, I didn't send it to you, see
Speaker A
? That's fine, that's fine, it's not a problem. It is one of the various amulets, let's say, that were in vogue since ancient Rome, also because poisoners mh were again accused of being witches, and it was still an instrumentalized
Speaker A
accusation often, because there are French noblewomen who were accused of being poisoners. But if we go to see what they had done, in reality, it had only been to extend, to open their court to artists, to scientists who
Speaker A
dealt with esoteric arts, m so it was a, let's say, an elite a bit more, uh, let's say a bit less politicized, so they accused her of having made the king sick with her poisons, because three husbands in a
Speaker A
row had died, But in reality, she hadn't killed them; her enemies had killed them. They had staged a crime scene ad hoc and had accused the young woman. And she was a woman as fascinating as she was intelligent,
Speaker A
historians have said. So you see how it often is, I mean, if we think about the witch today, right? Uh, if we even search on the web we find her depicted in Dürer's engravings or Goya's, ugly, so hunchbacked, a crooked nose,
Speaker A
the Befana, the classic Befana. Yes, yes. Uh, yes, there is also the whole discussion of the deities she embodies, the ancient deities, right, that the Befana embodies, like Perchta.
Speaker A
etc., a huge topic, but if we look today, if you search for modern witches , they are these beautiful women, incredible faces, very fair skin, uh they have, let's say, they are diametrically opposite. Or we find the witch from Snow White, right? Walt
Speaker A
Disney depicts her in the old way, uh, not, let's say, as we find her represented on the web today. Uh, these often disheveled hairs, uh this lascivious attitude that they ride a goat, and here too we know who the goat
Speaker A
represents, uh, or they transform. Sometimes I have also found testimonies in which these women tell of actually having transformed, of having reached very distant places like the walnut tree of Benevento, but in the guise of butterflies or even dragonflies and
Speaker A
these are truly peculiar cases. Uh, because let's say that the witch hunt was not just one, there were many, and they took on characteristics based also on the area, based also on the inquisitor who went to conduct the
Speaker A
interrogations. There are cases in which, no, as I was saying before about —we are close to March 8 th—there are cases in which men from the Church world sided in defense of the witches.
Speaker A
It so happens that, uh, even I couldn't believe what I was reading. Why? Because here, this is really the image that perfectly represents the actions that witches perform, therefore banquets, orgiastic rites, the vassal kiss on Lucifer's rear end, uh they eat
Speaker A
and in a, well, as we see, very, very rustic way. let's put it that way. And especially the one above is riding a a goat and she doesn't have a broom. You see that she has a pitchfork because the
Speaker A
broom Yes It is not always depicted, and here too there is a whole system, let's say, of scholars who are currently explaining why tools of daily life were used, but also the whole connection to the lust, to the seduction that this flawed woman
Speaker A
could have, who could, let's say, also through spices, through perfumes, make a man lose his mind and turn him into a beast. And a 1600s text, a judge, says so. And this is another, another painting, I think it's more modern, eh,
Speaker A
that represents well everything that is then described. Yes, this is a*benandante*witch, or rather the women who traveled in spirit, who performed these shamanic journeys in and of themselves. eh who is beating a creature, let's say, that is not that
Speaker A
is not so positive to have around. Then we did the episode on the*benandanti* and, let's say, it deserves to be traced back to agrarian cults, to cults that survived, because among other things we often highlight within the records is the fact that they practiced
Speaker A
witchcraft through food as well. So flatbreads, eh, berries, specific dishes, I don't know, especially in the period of the nights preceding the night of the dead, the commemoration of the dead, eh, they cooked this flatbread with barley and carved
Speaker A
symbols on it. Now, those who still make bread at home, we were just talking about it these days, still make the cross or specific signs so that it is blessed in some way, right? and the dough rises. Or some on the polenta
Speaker A
make a sort of cross before cutting it, and it always has a value, let's say, inherited from the past, a tradition of protection in some way. So another thing these women did was to consume eh the alcohol-users from the Nairn area,
Speaker A
which is still near—it's still in Scotland, obviously near Callen, she eh used good whisky to disinfect the wounds of people who got hurt. But that same good whisky, according to the inquisitors' records, also appears during the sabbaths.
Speaker A
Yes. Along with what? So the judge says: "Go and search if in the house or in the yard, in the courtyard she has any, because goose was a delicious, very expensive animal, and so anyone who ate goose Yes.
Speaker A
was suspected if she was a woman. Clear . Listen, listen Monia, you were—we had almost hinted earlier, for example, at St. John's wort oil, but as remedies from these women do we have any list of herbs, tinctures that they used to heal
Speaker A
? Let's say that they were good phytotherapists and knew many, many, many remedies. Digitalis purpurea, to name one, to treat lovesickness. Still that same lovesickness, eh, which, however, brought on palpitations —these people who went to this witch asking," Help me, give me something for
Speaker A
heart palpitations or the heart beating too hard when I see that person who doesn't love me, " and these are the same principles that are in some remedies today against anxiety or against melancholy. against depression, the belladonna, datura stramonium, as you were saying
Speaker A
before, but also violets, because violets also contain aromatic remedies that had a calming effect on the nervous system, daffodils. But of course, one always had to be careful with the dosage. This is an anemone; by the way, the fields
Speaker A
are full of them now, this and also crocus flowers, but they are poisonous. Here, this is one of the modern depictions, isn't it? As we were saying , of witches, yes. that are being made. Well, obviously here with the pumpkin because
Speaker A
it’s likely a Halloween costume. And these women, though, here is another of the areas I’ve been to, and I slept in a cottage down there, it was beautiful, for a few months, and women would gather there too; some
Speaker A
disappeared and never came back, abducted by aliens, abducted, we don't know by whom. Who knows. And this is another very famous painting that is very eloquent in its gestures and presence as well, right?
Speaker A
The full moon, obviously these women there’s always the goat we see there, Francisco Goya too, right? At the Prado there are some depictions, and this is the mandrake, a plant that is a root which was mostly used, but it could be
Speaker A
a female root or a male root, and it's not the only one because even rosemary, like this one here, like the datura stramonium.
Speaker A
And this is the stramonium that was used. Here, this representation. Anyone who has read Castaneda’s books knows well in the preparation that there is the male root and the female root.
Speaker A
Mm-hmm. Yes. And here, and that is, for example, that is lemon verbena and I never remember what it's called, lemon balm. I call it that because it smells strongly of lemon, and a liqueur is made from it, but back then it was
Speaker A
placed under doors, under cabinets where one feared the Benco might nest. Benco was a demon that would sit especially on people’s stomachs or tracheas during the night and wouldn't let them breathe, a sort of balm that still helped people feel
Speaker A
Lemon verbena. Lemon verbena, you mean? Yes. Lemon balm. Lemon verbena. Yes. Ok. An ointment was also created with spikenard, a balm. Eh, so this yes m I have it in the garden too, eh, if it’s dry. Well, in winter, eh, not to
Speaker A
mention calamint. Here, this is the daffodil. I always use this image to say, to underline one thing. In the past—and this is an Arabic manuscript —in the past there were no witches and there were no dangerous women; there were wise women. And this is the
Speaker A
iris, for example, together with an extract of cornflower, was used by Maria, Frau Maria, for eye care, for red eyes. Today you use chamomile and you use, uh, drops that help, you know, even after various hours. Here, this is
Speaker A
the cornflower. Mh. Actually, it is still used today like lavender, uh, against the evil eye ; they used a lavender-based balm, they put it under the pillow, they put it under the baby who was tight in the cradle, so, wrapped in their swaddling
Speaker A
clothes. Because, back then, babies were swaddled, and against, for example , the Lamia witches, who were the witches that sucked the life out of the child, the ancestors of more modern vampires. Eh, what would happen? Eh, they would place it underneath to
Speaker A
protect them precisely from these women , these witches who arrived at night, transforming into owls and other nocturnal birds of prey or into cats.
Speaker A
But in reality, the true criminals were not these women; rather, it had been, in this specific case from 1588 in the Viterbo area, it had been the mice, because, regardless, homes were not divided like we have today, with the
Speaker A
garage below and the stable somewhere else. Ah, it was all, in fact, and they even kept warm with the animals. Right, because, well, the children had been bitten by these animals; there are even tooth marks with torn veins, or, well,
Speaker A
yes, the cradles were hung, let's say, to prevent them from climbing up. Yes. And lavender, as well as arnica montana , keeps certain animals away, so yes, they are it’s a beautiful world. It’s a beautiful world that, in my opinion,
Speaker A
deserves to be known, while also dispelling common clichés. Yes. Arnica montana is also called wolf-bane, and people even used to smoke it. Goethe is said to have smoked it because it relieved throat problems. And but I want to read one more thing that
Speaker A
I often have to deal with, because some manuscripts state that women have a greater natural vocation for discovering the power of herbs, and that's fine. But they are also more prone to giving poison. A woman of vile spirit who desires nothing but revenge.
Speaker A
I mean, do you understand how she was described? So, when we ask ourselves," But why were they mostly women? "Here, this is a hearth scene; as you see in the cradle, however, there is what we call the changeling.
Speaker A
Yes. So, the child has been replaced, uh, changed, uh, but it's a scene of common life.
Speaker A
Absolutely. Yes. Like the women who brought their children along because they worked in the fields, they took them with them and sometimes there were consequences, perhaps you lost sight of them for a moment and the tide would turn. If you
Speaker A
were inexperienced, because you had gone to—because these women also practiced lesser-known professions, that is, they went to gather things like seaweed or mollusks in the lakes.
Speaker A
We saw a lake there, uh, we are still in Scotland here. Do you see the seaweed? There are specific types of seaweed used to make soaps, but some were also administered against, uh, worms, applied to the navel. Well, of
Speaker A
course, regardless of the active ingredient present in that plant, the fruit of their experience and knowledge was somehow passed down, and so, uh, and that is—the one we saw is a mandrake root.
Speaker A
Mandrake, yes, yes, yes. This here is the queen of mandrakes, which is so expensive and has been so sought after for some years that they had to close the most famous botanical garden for poisonous plants in Germany because,
Speaker A
from time to time, they were stolen, the the roots the roots, there was a black market, I mean, Yes, something Yes. Yes, there was, listen, there was, there was a an apothecary, because other places I go to are
Speaker A
let's say historical reenactments, but also participating in the Medieval Festival of Gubbio, where there are some experts in the field. Here is an apothecary, uh, his surname is Barsotti , and he has recreated...I am just a guest there on that occasion, but you
Speaker A
see, he has set up the apothecary's shop again, because the records show how they used licorice—the woman we were talking about at the beginning— and ginger, they also used cinnamon. He is holding the mortar in his hand. Yes,
Speaker A
But there was a whole series of, uh, spices that were regulated, and if women were found, uh, in possession of too much cinnamon, as the statutes, for example, in the Veneto region say, uh, they were cause for suspicion because
Speaker A
it cost a lot, like silk; there were spice routes, in short, it’s no coincidence they were also used as currency, and he is very talented.
Speaker A
Piero Barzotti, there it is, it wouldn't come to mind. Well, maybe if you have the contact, call him sometime and we can do an episode on apothecaries too, why not?
Speaker A
Yes, he really embodies the era, so Yes, I was seeing here the hanging candles, these are produced in an artisanal way. I had seen a a reproduction at the Carnival of Bevagna where they were.
Speaker A
Well done. Actually, maybe you saw him. So, yes, his name is Pietro Barzotti, I couldn't recall it before, I mean, I wanted the right name.
Speaker A
And yes, yes, he produces them, also because there was a whole rule and there was even a regulation for producing candles and I found trials of women who had diluted the wax, the quantity of wax, and had added an excessive
Speaker A
amount of pig fat. So these noblewomen who had used them went to complain about the bad smell.
Speaker A
Yes. Eh, so it's Oh well, certainly. Documents are alive , in my opinion. Eh, yes, they tell a piece of that history, certainly, of that reality, of that context. And anyway, they had to make ends meet somehow, let's put it that
Speaker A
way. Alright, alright, Monia. We’ve had a rich conversation this evening as well. I don’t know if you had other elements you wanted to bring to our attention.
Speaker A
Look, let's say you know I would keep you here for 15 hours, but in my opinion we can only tell this one thing. Yes, that I will find for you now which is, it seems to be in this other one. Have
Speaker A
patience, but we're here, we're here, we're not going anywhere. Here it is. which is the price list that was applied by, let's say, the authorities to burn people alive or to maintain the" malfattores, "because there are also the most...What do you
Speaker A
mean," malfattores "? Help us understand, I didn't... They were people who were at the expense of the authorities, eh, and who had the task of being" malfattores, "to harm the people who were carried during the procession before the stake, so
Speaker A
to the" buccini "practically. Eh, so pricking based on the degree of torture too, right? and even a family hired thugs paid by the municipality, by the local lord, by the local prefect , and here, even, two thalers and 26
Speaker A
albus for the ointment used for the cutting of the hand plus fingers, three thalers. I mean, there was a market then.
Speaker A
Yes. I mean, it didn't really delight us much, this thing, I'm telling you. No, we could...
Speaker A
No, unfortunately not. We could have done without knowing it, given the context we are moving in these days. Well, but I mean human malice is inherent within us since the beginning of time. That's true. Yes, yes, unfortunately. Yes, but we study
Speaker A
some common places and understand that these women had abilities that, besides having to make ends meet and roll up their sleeves, eh, it was...
Speaker A
they also had to face all the absurdities of the dominant culture of that period. Clear. And there are women , there are women, there are stories that are a beautiful example, because there is a case where a woman, a
Speaker A
patient, is accused of being a witch herself because she had asked another witch for help to try to make her husband return to how he was when they first met, so more gentle, kinder; but instead, he beat her severely, it says.
Speaker A
Yes. Eh, in that case, the women, when she was beaten, intervened, welcomed her and helped her start a new life, so there was no trial and they took her into their home, so we see how solidarity is always
Speaker A
important. Exactly. Good, good. Thank you Monia, thank you always for the research you bring to our attention. Naturally, we'll catch up next month for another chat, and I see how there is always great appreciation from our friends, and we
Speaker A
thank you all for your attention. As usual, before we say goodbye, let's go over the previews. Think about bringing that special to us too, okay? Beyond Cristina, maybe we can do some interesting things together. Like saying: a piece of one, a piece of the
Speaker A
other, a very interesting picture of the matter emerges and, as usual, let's go do the previews of the upcoming programs. See you later. It’s coming back, don't miss it, that is, very soon at 11:30 PM," Limite 25 "returns with
Speaker A
the 35th episode. This format is doing great, it is doing really, really well. It finds so much appreciation, so many people write to me, I read many comments, later, in fact, at 11:30 PM, and then tomorrow Salvo Manduzio
Speaker A
returns to visit us. Trump’s blitz hits a wall. You know what is happening around the world, in short, with the attack by Israel and the USA on Iran?
Speaker A
It is a conflict that is widening, it is no longer regional; we don't know where we will end up, but together with Salvo tomorrow evening, we will try to paint a more precise picture of the situation. Naturally, if you have a way
Speaker A
to follow some Telegram channels and you are realizing how serious the situation is becoming. Always at 9:00 PM, always here on" Ali del Bruco. " Thank you Monia, thank you.
Speaker A
Thank you all, thanks to every single one of you. Thank you all for your attention. See you tomorrow. Olé! Until next time.
Speaker A
Good evening everyone. Warrior Guardians, stay vigilant. No.
Topics:witcheswitch trialsMalleus Maleficarumhistorical witchcraftwomen healersherbal medicinewitchcraft accusationssocial stigmaEuropean historyFrau Maria
