Speaker A
Right.
In Episode 16, Robert Saltzman discusses spiritual addiction, psychotherapy, and the challenges of authentic spirituality with Shiv Sengupta.
Key Takeaways
- Spiritual addiction is a real but often unrecognized phenomenon that parallels other forms of addiction.
- True spirituality involves confronting and integrating the ordinary personality rather than bypassing it.
- The commercialization of spirituality can obscure genuine spiritual growth and understanding.
- Psychotherapy and spiritual teaching can have conflicting goals, especially regarding personality and awakening.
- Mental health care is essential in spiritual contexts to avoid neurotic avoidance through spirituality.
What the video covers
- Robert Saltzman shares his journey from psychotherapy to exploring spiritual addiction and non-duality.
- The episode highlights the conflict between psychotherapy and spiritual teaching roles.
- Saltzman critiques spiritual bypassing and the commercialization of spirituality.
- Discussion on the misunderstood concept of spiritual addiction and its societal pushback.
- Saltzman emphasizes the importance of facing ordinary personality challenges rather than escaping them.
- The conversation touches on Buddhism, non-duality, and the gap between spiritual awakening and personality integration.
- Saltzman reflects on his experience with a Buddhist teacher and the spiritual community.
- The episode critiques the spiritual industry’s focus on hope and enlightenment as a form of addiction.
- Saltzman advocates for mental health awareness within spiritual contexts.
- The dialogue includes reflections on cultural and societal influences on spirituality and identity.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Overview of Spiritual Addiction
- 06:40Meeting with Buddhist Teacher and Early Spiritual Studies
- 12:07Critique of Spirituality as a Hiding Place
- 17:31Podcast Reflections and Public Pushback
- 23:55The Role of Psychotherapy vs Spiritual Teaching
- 34:06Spirituality, Truth, and Human Understanding
- 39:36Cultural Reflections and Personal Experiences
- 47:56Closing Thoughts on Spirituality and Mental Health
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
today my guess is someone whose work I deeply respect his name is Robert Saltzman welcome Robert oh thank you so much Jim it's a pleasure to be with you again I recall that we did this think it was back in 2020 when you first
Speaker A
[Music]
Speaker A
it's it's really a wonderful book I recommend it highly to anyone who feels addicted or troubled by searching for the end of the rainbow so so let's speak about that a little bit this idea of spiritual addiction it's it's not a very common theme not
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[Music]
Speaker A
underlying theme of what feeds this industry of Hope and and Enlightenment so what let's let's rewind back a little bit what what got you into writing about the themes that you do as opposed to kind of getting on the same bandwagon as
Speaker A
Hello, and welcome to the Spiritually Incorrect Podcast with me, your host Shiv Sengupta. I'm the author of the Adviteaholics Anonymous books: Sobering Insights for Spiritual Addicts, A Manifesto for Spiritual Anarchy, and the newly released An Antidote to Spiritual Enlightenment.
Speaker A
and then a rather renowned Buddhist teacher moved to town here and we became friends immediately and we began to meet a weekly or so with the intention of discussing this understanding of Buddhism and he also had a Sunday
Speaker A
Today, my guest is someone whose work I deeply respect. His name is Robert Saltzman. Welcome, Robert.
Speaker A
songhana to speak with me and I resisted that idea for several years but he was tricky and eventually I agreed to see some of his people and I had a Psychotherapy practice at the time um and these people would come to my
Speaker A
Oh, thank you so much, Jim. It's a pleasure to be with you again. I recall that we did this, I think it was back in 2020 when you first came out with the Adviteaholic first book, and I, uh, Catherine Noyce, your publisher and mine, had sent me a PDF to review before that interview, but I never got around to reading much of it at the time. Subsequently, I have read it, and it's really a wonderful book. I recommend it highly to anyone who feels addicted or troubled by searching for the end of the rainbow.
Speaker A
there was a conflict between my work as a psychotherapist and the role of a spiritual teacher because um as a psychotherapist the idea is to bring someone to Greater awareness of the ordinary personality with which that person must face life in the world
Speaker A
So, let's speak about that a little bit. This idea of spiritual addiction, it's not a very common theme. Not many people are aware that, you know, an addiction to spirituality is even possible. Most would deny that they're spiritual addicts. But I mean, you have written extensively about it yourself in your books, and you've pointed at it quite a bit because it seems to be an underlying theme of what feeds this industry of hope and enlightenment.
Speaker A
such as drug addiction uh sexual addiction overeating excessive anything excessive TV and um when I began to bring that idea into the public which I did at the behest of John Troy who had interviewed me on the radio and
Speaker A
So, let's rewind back a little bit. What got you into writing about the themes that you do, as opposed to kind of getting on the same bandwagon as everybody else is making a buck doing this?
Speaker A
I see that you're getting the same kind of thing now um it's it's been amusing to me to to watch you taking the same kind of bashing that I received when I tried to speak about these issues honestly but anyway that's
Speaker A
Um, yes. Well, many years ago, well, I've been living in this little town here in southern Baja California, Mexico, and pretty much on my own in my studies of Buddhism, which I was interested in.
Speaker A
and and I think that's the key point when you say most spirituality is about really spiritual bypassing using these tools techniques philosophies to bypass the the personality the problematic personality with its suffering and challenges and all of that
Speaker A
And then a rather renowned Buddhist teacher moved to town here, and we became friends immediately, and we began to meet weekly or so with the intention of discussing this understanding of Buddhism. And he also had a Sunday where he would speak on Buddhist practice and meditation and all this.
Speaker A
and from my perspective that is truly what spirituality is supposed to be about not bypassing any of the suffering in fact it's not about suffering at all but really getting down to that kernel of truth that lies at the
Speaker A
Well, after several years of this, he told me that he thought I was a teacher of non-duality, and he would like to send some of the people from his sangha to speak with me. And I resisted that idea for several years, but he was tricky, and eventually I agreed to see some of his people.
Speaker A
about this experience of non personality non-being whatever you want to call it right and a no-doer uh experience and there seems to be a gap on both sides there seems to be some vital link missing between the two
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I had a psychotherapy practice at the time, and these people would come to my consultorio, but not for psychotherapy, purportedly for spiritual awakening. And I never felt totally good about it.
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that okay well is there a kernel of of Truth and spirituality sure but it of course it's buried under a tremendous amount of dogma and um also has become a commercial Enterprise for a lot of people which is not a
Speaker A
And after about a year or so, I decided that I needed to get out of that and that role, and I did.
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um so that's a tricky question um when you asked me to do this podcast I hadn't seen one of your podcasts so I I uh watched the one that you had with Paul Hederman and he's a honest person
Speaker A
There was a conflict between my work as a psychotherapist and the role of a spiritual teacher because, as a psychotherapist, the idea is to bring someone to greater awareness of the ordinary personality with which that person must face life in the world.
Speaker A
that I totally reject I don't believe in any capital T truth that human beings have access to we're living in a material world and there's no denying that without becoming deluded or deluded and so one of the things that I push
Speaker A
Spirituality, on the other hand, can be used to bypass that task, as John Gray called it, spiritual bypass. And in that sense, it's no different from any other way of avoiding the question of who am I and how do I function, such as drug addiction, sexual addiction, overeating, excessive anything, excessive TV.
Speaker A
because we have spiritual needs as people we need love we need compassion we need to understand our position not just as animals in a material world although That's the basis for what we are but the other needs that we have for
Speaker A
And when I began to bring that idea into the public, which I did at the behest of John Troy, who had interviewed me on the radio and then got me involved in Facebook, I received a tremendous amount of pushback. Many people were insulted by this, and some threatened by it.
Speaker A
there's not one overarching truth about what what is a human being after all a scientist will see it from one point of view and a priest from another entirely so I would not say there's truth but we can come to an understanding of our
Speaker A
And of course, when I was faced with that, I had to deal with a lot of pushback. And interestingly, I see that you're getting the same kind of thing now.
Speaker A
um pretty harsh critic of that particular uh end of it but um that's a long answer I'm sorry I've carried on so long but to answer your question sure I don't I don't throw the baby out with a bath water
Speaker A
It's been amusing to me to watch you taking the same kind of bashing that I received when I tried to speak about these issues honestly. But anyway, that's the story. I got into this because I care about mental health.
Speaker A
unexpectedly they're transported out of their everyday kind of contracted state of consciousness of this is who I am I'm this person doing this living this role functioning in this way to this blown wide open perspective of no barriers between what's being
Speaker A
I think that most spirituality is a hiding place for neurotic people who use it to avoid dealing with the ordinary life that we almost need. That's about it.
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youth after fighting years of depression and suicidal ideation and it seems like that is the impetus that starts the the search for well what is this really about and spiritual culture in a way capitalizes on that right it capitalizes
Speaker A
And I think that's the key point when you say most spirituality is about really spiritual bypassing, using these tools, techniques, philosophies to bypass the problematic personality with its suffering and challenges and all of that.
Speaker A
like that do happen so I wanted to get your take on how do you think that kind of experience that religious experience or that Awakening experience fits into the totality of what we call Human Experience well human beings are capable of all of
Speaker A
But in your mind, is there a kernel of spirituality or truth in there that does open up a human being to life more profoundly? And, you know, I know you've spoken about it in your books to a large extent. I do as well in my books.
Speaker A
I've had I had this one very startling experience many years ago but but now it's a rather common experience that I have and not really mind-blowing anymore because I'm accustomed to it but um well I thought you put this very well
Speaker A
And from my perspective, that is truly what spirituality is supposed to be about: not bypassing any of the suffering. In fact, it's not about suffering at all, but really getting down to that kernel of truth that lies at the heart of everyone's experience.
Speaker A
reading but I have so much to read these days and most of it's not about this theme at all I'm very interested in science right now but um you compared this kind of a waking experience to an orgasm
Speaker A
And I feel that psychotherapy, in a way, misses that because it's so hyper-focused on personality, and then spirituality or the culture of it, as you pointed out, bypasses the personality and tries to make it all about this experience of non-personality, non-being, whatever you want to call it, right?
Speaker A
there is but even if there were it wouldn't be very useful to live that way and the other aspect of it is okay you had the orgasm and that's beautiful and everything but if you met someone who had never had
Speaker A
And a no-doer experience. And there seems to be a gap on both sides. There seems to be some vital link missing between the two fields, and it's always something that I myself and my work am trying to get at, a gap I'm trying to bridge.
Speaker A
teaching the teacher sits there on a throne and describes how wonderful it is to be enlightened and all the rest of it and the miserable people in the audience aspire to that but the words of that teacher cannot provide it for them at
Speaker A
And I feel you are as well when you write, so I wonder if you could speak a bit more to that.
Speaker A
but even if and they were somehow able to function my broader point is so what if that's not what my experience is right now or somebody else's experiences right now then it doesn't matter it doesn't matter if Elon Musk has you know
Speaker A
Okay, well, is there a kernel of truth and spirituality? Sure. But of course, it's buried under a tremendous amount of dogma and also has become a commercial enterprise for a lot of people, which is not a really good resting place for truth because a lot of truths are hard to hear.
Speaker A
have to honor and that that's kind of the only focus I can honor and it seems that the entire industry is orientated around trying to manufacture an ideal state and that is placed on a pedestal over this ordinary eating
Speaker A
And if I speak them, I may alienate a lot of my followers who have been paying me—they aren't paying me, but I'm speaking in general.
Speaker A
you know that that's always been the challenge for me and I'm wondering how you approach that well you call it an industry and that's a very strange way to look at it although a common way to look at it
Speaker A
So that's a tricky question. When you asked me to do this podcast, I hadn't seen one of your podcasts, so I watched the one that you had with Paul Hederman, and he's an honest person without a big axe to grind.
Speaker A
honestly about their Human Experience of waking up in the morning and needing to face the day they refuse to do it because they have no particular expertise in doing that and reading the bhagavad-gita will not give you any expertise in how to do that
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I enjoyed hearing what he had to say, but on the other hand, he talks about satsang and truth a lot and claims that he has a way of leading someone to that truth, and that's an idea that I totally reject.
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to be a spiritual teacher to make a living John Troy and I have discussed this in detail because he is an entrepreneur and an expert in branding and he pointed out to me all the many cases of how branding is accomplished in the
Speaker A
I don't believe in any capital T truth that human beings have access to. We're living in a material world, and there's no denying that without becoming deluded or deluded.
Speaker A
that's part of life but it's not all of life the most important thing is to get get up in the morning and and live not have your head in seeking some kind of transcendent experience because as you just pointed out even if you had that
Speaker A
And so one of the things that I push back against is the idea that there are teachers who can lead you to truth. I don't believe that.
Speaker A
so Robert why do you think it is that there's so few of us speaking in this way because you know often I'll get pushed back from um other spiritual teachers and saying you know I'm I'm not a an opportunistic kind of person I'm an
Speaker A
That said, is there a kernel of interest, let's say, not truth, but is there something interesting in spirituality as a field? Well, of course, because we have spiritual needs as people. We need love, we need compassion, we need to understand our position not just as animals in a material world, although that's the basis for what we are.
Speaker A
set of them because they thrive in this in this industry but there are many well-meaning teachers out there however operating in this disingenuous sort of way because the culture Fosters that right it rewards that behavior so inadvertently unless someone has a very strong spine
Speaker A
But the other needs that we have for meaning and love and compassion, and there are ways in spiritual practice—well, practice is not the right word—there's an understanding that one can come to about who and what I am that won't be true because it's personal.
Speaker A
because I'm sure people suspect that there's something rotten something stinks and yet they're going along with it well you're calling it an industry so I don't think that's um speaking the truth is compatible with being a member of an industry
Speaker A
There's not one overarching truth about what a human being is after all. A scientist will see it from one point of view, and a priest from another entirely.
Speaker A
2 500 years ago life is brief and usually ends with old age suffering and death and there's really not much more we can say about this existence here yes there are pleasures and joys and all kinds of things
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So I would not say there's truth, but we can come to an understanding of our situation, our human situation, and I think the best parts of spirituality have done that.
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way to live eternally and never die and that's the basis of the spirituality industry as you call it it's a promise that can't be fulfilled so the people who are doing it they may believe in what they're saying because they had a
Speaker A
I think that Zen Buddhism, for example, is a very interesting field worth reading about, worth finding out about. Advice of the data, not so much.
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studied hypnotism but I don't really like to name them anymore um I did it to clear the ground when I first started speaking this way and I think I got that part of it done so now I'll just speak in general but in
Speaker A
I'm a pretty harsh critic of that particular end of it, but that's a long answer. I'm sorry I've carried on so long, but to answer your question, sure, I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Speaker A
opinion parading is truth that's all it is even the even the Buddha's words or you know um ADI shankara who started I'd like that all of these were just philosophers with opinions maybe um you know educated opinions or
Speaker A
It seems that most spiritual traditions, religions, what have you, wisdom thoughts, all begin with typically one person having what is called the religious experience, the mystical experience—that you know, there's so many terms of an awakening where suddenly, spontaneously...
Speaker A
way um spiritual teachers communicate to their followers without naming names can you talk us through some of the techniques that you've seen out there yeah sure listen to me I guess give me your full attention just listen listen to what I'm saying
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the material world is an illusion it doesn't really exist and you don't really exist and I can show you how to verify that for yourself if you just listen to me and I will explain it to you and when
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I'm finished explaining you will get it and if you don't get it this time you'll come back to the next seminar and you'll get it there and by the way the seminar will cost you such and such but it's
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worth it because this is eternal life I'm promising you Etc and that's how it goes it's a claim that cannot be fulfilled so have you you know encountered people who accuse you of nihilism or having a nihilistic philosophy of life because
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that's something I come up against quite often in my writings because I'm very much of a similar mindset as you I I'll often use the analogy of life is jumping out of a plane without a parachute and your experience of living is Free
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Falling until Splat you hit the ground and it's done um and people see that as a life-denying philosophy and they want to hear something life affirming because naturally they're struggling through life and they want something to inspire them to forge arm ahead and what I try
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to explain is that it may sound nihilistic but it's actually life-affirming to the max because when you When You Subtract all the detours and Escape hatches that a person has available to them then they're forced to turn nowhere but to the moment and face
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their life as it exists and yes we are free falling but Free Falling for a large extent of your lifetime can feel like flying and that's essentially what people want is the is the freedom of flight in their life
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um how do you deal with that kind of criticism that you are have a nihilistic life denying philosophy that that doesn't believe in anything other than sickness old age and death as you mentioned yes well I don't think there's anything
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nihilistic about what I'm saying what I'm saying is if you remove the delusions and false promises then you find yourself here and to be here is the opposite of being nihilistic what you're saying is I've been given this brief gift of awareness it's not
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going to last forever at best it's going to last 80 years and 90 years whatever it is and the back end of that probably won't be terribly Pleasant because there'll be a lot of pain and suffering that younger people don't really deal with
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for so frequently some do so if we look at the course of life it's not nihilistic to say that life ends at a certain point for each of us and this gift of awareness that we now enjoy and even though I'm older in some pain I
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am enjoying it to the max as you said I'm enjoying it to the max it's great to be here and be alive I don't think there's anything nihilistic about that all I'm saying is that comes to an end
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and you're not going to be in heaven with Jesus when it's over in my view in my opinion nor will you transcend this and become one with Brahman that's not the story those are delusions that people use to deal with the fear of
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not being at all which is a primal fear it's not a decision to have that fear we do have that fear most of what we do in life is a way of substantiating ourselves and showing ourselves that we actually
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exist I mean if we didn't need that when people like you and and I wrote books we wouldn't have our names on the cover why do we need that just put the title of the book on there and people can read
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it if they like no of course not we human beings substantiate ourselves and everything we do we have marriages we have children we have careers this is all to enable the idea of myself to continue forward into the future
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and we played that game all our lives but it doesn't continue into the future even the famous people shortly after their death they may have a upsurge of interest but after a while that wanes and we need new stars and new
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role models and that's just the way it is anybody can be replaced and when you die it's Burial at Sea they toss your corpse over the side and the ship sells on because life is for the living now I don't think that's nihilistic I
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think it's realistic what do you think yeah I mean that that has been very much in line with what I've you know written about in my books is you're aware that to me I'm not interested in optimism nor
Speaker A
am I pessimistic in my Approach my my Approach is to evaluate reality the best way I can and the only reality I know of is the one that's in front of me I don't know what's going to happen
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when I die and you know whether there's anything that continues beyond that I suspect not but even if it were were to or what's happened in the past either it's not much of my concern reality as I know it is what is happening in this
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moment it's what's happening now that's my only relationship that I kind of am focused on obviously there's a history to my life and then there's some story making that happens around that through the memories and you know it it says a
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lot about me when I look at how I remember things there are certain memories that that linger and there's certain memories that don't uh if you ask me you know what I ate for dinner three nights ago I couldn't tell
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you but I could tell you what happened on a particular day when I was in the fourth grade when somebody bullied little things like that right and those traumas and those memories linger and and we tend to build our
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stories around those significant events that happen in our lives ignoring everything else that happened because it doesn't stand out for us so there's a part of that that feeds into the personality but at the same time I know that a lot of that is
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based on Prejudice and bias and I have hundreds of cognitive biases everybody else does um and that's not necessarily reality as well so my there's a constant negotiation going on between the personality who wants to remember things a certain way and reality and you can't
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argue with reality reality is what it is and we may not understand it but we can encounter it and that's usually the basis by which I tend to operate so um whenever there's a conflict between my personality and reality eventually I
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defer to reality because I know that's far more constant than my personality is obviously it's always in flux as well but there's something enduring about it there's this sense of being in reality the is this for lack of
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a better word and then within myself as well there's a deep sense of being that's beyond my thoughts and my emotions those keep fluttering in and out but there's this constant threat of being and there there's a relationship
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between the two that are almost the same thing in certain moments they feel like the same thing they don't feel like they're two different things so I feel like human beings need some reference to that in order to develop perspective on
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themselves what's your opinion on that um well I think I'm in a kind of unusual condition not um not unheard of but unusual in the sense that I'm not trying to make anything happen um um I'm just living right now in this
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moment I'm speaking with you now I have no other agenda at the moment I don't need to I can just do this and I don't care about my personality I don't need to do anything about it it just is what it is I have the interest
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that I have some of them are learned and some I was born with I was a very curious child for example while another child might be incurious that's personality but it's inborn it's not something that is created by the individual
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and all of these questions that seem to engage people so deeply um I don't have any answers for them and I don't need any answers so what I see as a spiritual delusion is the idea that you're going to get an
Speaker A
answer to those questions if you ask a question that has no answer you'll get lots of answers but there'll be because that is the spiritual industry as you call it it's it's a way of supplying answers to questions that
Speaker A
don't have any answers I'll just give one brief example some people say that the human being doesn't really exist as a center of awareness that Consciousness comes from the outside that the universe is conscious everything is conscious every particle
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in the universe is conscious and that when we see that then we are spiritually realized and that then then we have transcended the Human Condition we understand that our our true nature is infinite Consciousness I hear this all the time
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that it could be that's possible but where's the evidence for it I don't I don't really see much I see a lot of evidence for naturalism for example I'm a primate animal and was born with an intelligence that evolved from
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the most primitive one cell beings through about three and a half billion years and arrived at Robert and all the rest of us Human primated animals to me that is much more likely to be factual than this idea about
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yeah no one really exists and we're just all objects in Consciousness there's no really somebody just told me this there's material objects don't really exist unless we're conscious of them and I said to this person you mean if you're
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not conscious of the moon in the sky there is no moon yes this person said that's right well is it is it really How could somebody really make herself believe that how on what basis because the spiritual teacher preached it or the some
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spiritual text that was just written by people after all says it and I think the the space that I have here in this conversation I don't mean a conversation with you I mean the wider conversation that you and I are both
Speaker A
involved in the space that that I inhabit there is skepticism and I think if we are not if we ever lose skepticism we're really lost you know a lot of people want to make themselves believe things they need to believe things that can't
Speaker A
be demonstrated and my situation is that I find myself without that need I have no need in concluding on any questions about ultimate metaphysics because I don't think those questions have answers and since they don't I just ignore them they're meaningless
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to me some people I understand can't be that way I don't blame them we're all the way we are I didn't ask to be this way and so they want to spend their lives discussing these things how many angels
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can stand on the head of it on the point of a needle but I just don't have any interest in that shiv yeah there was a point in my life when there were two of me there was me and
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there was the idea of me and it was there was a Perpetual tension between the two and a desire and the need and a seeking for reconciliation um that's not the case for me anymore for me it's everything is now driven by
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curiosity curiosity of the world curiosity of the genetic makeup of my body curiosity of the psychological makeup of my mind and I'm no longer involved in that Perpetual process of self-management that I call that most people are involved in where
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they're perpetually trying to tweak something about themselves because something doesn't feel right or aligned with what's going on and they need to change something about that mind is more a curiosity about or a fascination of wow that's how this functions are wow
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that that was an unexpected reaction I wonder what that was about um so I observe myself almost scientifically as one might observe a personality under a microscope in a lab just trying to learn about how this strange thing
Speaker A
functions um similarly with reality and I'd like to play a little bit of Devil's Advocate with you because I agree with you that most of these you know spiritual doctrines about metaphysics especially of the metaphysical kind 99 of them are pure and total crap
Speaker A
just stuff handed down through the centuries and and distorted in various ways to people's agendas however if we look at it more academically there have been many philosophers who argue for a what's known as a simulation hypothesis that
Speaker A
perhaps you know this reality in a sense is a simulation of a kind by technologically advanced civilization that developed an AI and was able to augment a reality then they that they could then inhabit similar to the way
Speaker A
our society seems to be moving now towards more and more augmented and virtual type realities so the philosophical argument is that what if it's already happened and I can't remember if maybe you might know the philosopher who made those three
Speaker A
postulates and one of those points was that if a a civilization could Advance technologically enough to create a virtual reality it would then want to inhabit that reality is the is the postulate the first postulate and the second one says that if that is possible
Speaker A
that it is most likely that that it's already happened um what are your thoughts on that kind of line of thinking that if this were a simulation then within the parameters of the simulation there would be no way to
Speaker A
truly empirically or scientifically test if we're living in a simulation because those parameters belong to the black box that is the simulation yeah so that was Nick Bostrom that's right yeah yeah sure he he cooked up these three postulates and
Speaker A
use them to demonstrate logically that the odds are that we are living in a simulation and human nature is so interesting after he did that people started walking around looking for places where the where the simulation wasn't perfect they would find a little
Speaker A
seam in the sky they thought or a building didn't have the back edges intact or whatever it was like it like a you know like a Hollywood set that's what we older people have to do we have to help each other
Speaker A
to get through this all right yeah well you know I I want to uh your your publisher Catherine and mine um wrote wrote an introduction to depending on no thing and um I've got a couple of lines from it that I want to
Speaker A
read because it it um encapsulates my my approach to this entirely so great for Catherine for coming up with this and I'll just read it honesty about not knowing is in my experience where Equanimity is to be found
Speaker A
what we actually know is precious little so many of us fill the apparent emptiness by pretending that believing is the same as knowing when One Believes without actually knowing then there is always lingering doubt to deal with even if only
Speaker A
unconsciously and there is never peace in the struggle between belief and doubt so Catherine quoted me there that's those lines are from depending on nothing and that's the way I see it the the the the impetus behind a lot of a lot of the
Speaker A
spirituality and even Nick Bostrom for example is to somehow find a way to rationalize being here as a frail human primate animal and the way that most people approach that is to have a set of beliefs it might be a Christian might be a
Speaker A
Scientologist or or might be a nihilist or optimistic or anything it's it's a way of clinging to an explanation for what all this suffering is about why why is it so hard to be alive it is it is hard to be alive I think
Speaker A
most of us If we're honest will admit that that life is tough it can be cold it can be difficult even if we're fortunate it can be difficult and if we're unfortunate in our health in our physical endowments
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in the course that our lives take if we're unfortunate that way this can be a hell so of course people want to escape from it and find equanimity and what I'm saying is equanimity in my experience occurs when you stop trying
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to get out of this moment and just live from moment to moment without Great Expectations and just take things as they come and deal with them Moment by moment step by step and that will be a life that
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will not be transcendental of course but it will be a real human life in the way that I see it shift I've received um a lot of criticism when when talking about this space of not knowing being kind of the most honest space a person
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can be in and some of the criticism surrounds the the argument that are you promoting a sense a culture of ignorance are you saying that you know people need no longer uh validate scientific facts or the fact that you
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know the speed of light is 3.8 to 10 to the power of 5 minus 19 meters per second or whatever it is sorry 19 meters per second um basic facts that we know about the world well then the argument can be made well
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how do we know these things and and does a person then just sort of embrace absolute ignorance and lose all curiosity for life and there has been pushback of that kind when people have you know since misunderstood and misinterpreted what
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this pointer of not knowing is about so how do you usually if I'm not sure if you've encountered that kind of criticism but what do you do if and when you do well this is this is the question of
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what's called epistemology which means what do we know and how can it be known what can be known and how can it be now and at one end of the spectrum you can say nobody can really know anything
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because all we know is our perceptions feelings and thoughts and we we could be completely deluded that's one end of the spectrum the other end of the spectrum is I'm absolutely 100 certain that Jesus died for my sins
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100 certain and there are a lot of people who claim to be that certain I think a lot of the ones who claim it aren't but some of them undoubtedly are um there's a point on that spectrum that
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can make sense and I'm in in that area of the spectrum and this is yes possibly nothing can truly be known beyond the shadow of Adele except that I seem to exist that's hard to deny that I as a center
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of awareness seem to exist seem not that I do exist that's hard to deny but I think there's plenty of area in that Spectrum where you could be fairly sure that something is true for example I'm fairly sure that the moon exists I
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see it in the sky at night people have landed on it and walked around on it and I think it's very hard to deny that that does not really exist and I don't see any reason why anyone would want to
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I don't see any reason for denying that the material world is real or that Robert Saltzman is not real it's all real in my view of the material world but real does not be okay step back I criticize vedanta one reason that I
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criticize it is that one of its aspects is the claim that nothing that changes is real only the unchanging substrate of all of this is real the ocean is real as this would be said but the waves are not real they're just
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more ocean well is that true I don't know I don't know if there is a substrate to all of this this could just be what it is without any background to it without any Newman on causing or creating a phenomenon that we
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see all around the phenomena that we see all around us this is a platonic View when Plato thought there were ideal forms and that for example there's an ideal Robert Saltzman and this what we see here is a shadow of
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that ideal it's possible a lot of people are interested in that idea but as I said I don't have a great deal of interest in ideas that cannot be demonstrated so I'm more into the nuts and bolts of
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things I like to work in gardens I like to tame animals I like to be married and have a household with a woman these are the things that to me are real and the philosophical basis for all that
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can be interesting at times but it's not something that grips me it's not my major pursuit in life not at all I like to wake up in the morning and just get into the day and live it yes there was a time in my life when I
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was interested in these questions and read a lot of books about science and philosophy and psychology and spirituality and tried to put that all together into a an understanding and probably it was helpful to to have that time in my life so I'm not discouraging
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people from seeking answers to their questions what I am pointing out is that in my opinion in my experience when the questions have been put to rest not because they're answered but because you see that they cannot be answered
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then you're in it you find yourself in an equanimous place and I think people are attracted to my work because when they hear me speak about these things they see equanimentary this is equanimity I don't need to convince anybody of anything I'm just
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going to say how I see it just as you are just as John Troy is just as Catherine Noyes is doing or Joan tollefson or people who are interested in spirituality without getting caught up in it without getting
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lost in it and I I I'm glad we're having this conversation because I think you're someone who speaks quite accurately not that everything you say is true I don't know that but what you a lot of what you do say can be applied usefully
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to this human situation in which we find ourselves kids I find that the odds are almost stacked against people because this platonic view as you called it this this view of there be an ideal state to Aspire to
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pretty much what drives Western society today it's it's pervasive in every aspect of Our Lives it's every every corporation is trying to grow perpetually towards a an increasingly ideal State the economies are doing that the culture is of self-improvement is
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set up for that everyone has an idea of where they want to get to financially emotionally spiritually all of that and it's this hamster wheel that keeps everything moving it's I I call uh I call this a sense of lack the most
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reliable non most reliable renewable resource on the planet uh even more than solar energy or wind energy if you can tap into human lack I mean you can fuel whatever industry you want forever and and that was a marketing strategy that
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Edward Bernays who was signaling Freud's nephew pursued in the early 1920s and that was a big pivot in modern marketing where they moved away from appealing to the rational side brain of the customer which said you know Ford truck
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EX many horsepower it does this it's reliable all of that to guide driving a Ford truck with a beautiful woman on the side and you know caption saying this Byford this is what freedom feels like and um Edward bernay's knew based on his
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uncle's philosophy that if you appeal to the rational mind of a customer you'll probably get a little bit of mileage out of them but if you appeal to the unconscious that deep sense of lack and insecurity you can
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keep mining that emotion forever essentially and it was so successful that it I feel like the entire structure of society is now orientated around that and pretty much any industry including the spiritual industry so what would you how do you
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advise somebody who clearly wants to be able to function in a pragmatic way whether you're countering each day living within the Practical reality of the moment not getting lost in idealism how does that kind of person reconcile against the entire culture around them
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that's Geared for that that rewards that no matter what your job is or who your employer what your industry is they're they're seeking that in the people they're looking to promote how does a person short of going off grid and off into the
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woods and creating their own little bubble of sanity function within that sort of an insane setup yeah well it's very difficult because we're all deeply conditioned we come into the world as babies and for the first few years of Our Lives
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we believe everything we're told by our caregivers there's no cool there's no critical um intelligence there at all it usually arrives later maybe at the age of six or seven we begin to become aware that the people around us are not fully speaking
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honestly and that they have agendas of Their Own eventually sadly we may even realize that everything that can be corrupted has been corrupted this advertising they're talking about is a form of corruption instead of giving information the idea is to influence someone by
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appealing to them on the psychosexual level and the advertising industry which you just evoked has um studied that to the point where they're experts and we're all living in a society in which the individual is not respected but we're just seeing as
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animals who need to be led to the slaughter and that's how the the the wealthy entrepreneurs pay for their corrupted lifestyle and those lifestyle is corrupted the take a private jet and burn enough fuel to actually transport hundreds of people
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just on a 20-minute flight because they want to um that's just an example industry is corrupt every every little niche where someone can make even one penny will be occupied by someone who's in it as a rocket now it's very hard for anyone
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to exist outside of that situation anymore there was a time in prehist that not prehistory excuse me but there was a time historically on this planet when people were not corrupted that way they would work on their Farms they
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would fish they would do what they needed to do to survive and there wasn't any Mass marketing and group mind and Facebook and all the rest of it but now you asked how would I advise someone that's a really difficult question
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in general I would say try to separate everything you believe and set it aside and say I don't know why I came to believe those things I'm going to set them aside and try to find my own mind as as pure
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a mind as I can find and then I'll find out what I want and need and not what I've been told but not what I am being told I should want or that I do need now you mentioned the spirituality
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industry several times it shouldn't be an industry what I'm doing now I'm just giving this away I'm not looking to make a profit out of this conversation and I won't make a profit out of this conversation I'm not charging anybody for anything
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yes I have a couple of books out and I get a couple of bucks when one is sold but that's that's minor and the books need to be sold Publishers need to make money that's their own business if you have a good publisher like the
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one we both have the books that they publish will be interesting books and books that were published in the right Spirit if another publisher wants to sell a bunch of pornography and everything because they can make a book doing that well then
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they'll do that it's up to the individual to the extent possible to try to find one's own mind and being less manipulated by people who want to own your mind for profit it's it's all the advices don't let people
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sell your own mind back to you by telling you what they think you need find out what you need and it might be something really simple I know in my case it really is simple I just want to be at peace
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simple as that I want to wake up in the morning and say here I am it's another day I won't always be here and I'm going to enjoy what I can and deal with the rest as best I can
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chip it's interesting the words culture and culture are share the same etymology in the in the drive from from the original meaning the Latin meaning being cultivated to cultivate and when you look at the act of cultivation growing crops
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plants are grown in a very controlled environment given adequate sunlight adequate water adequate space so that they can be used in a certain way so that they can be manipulated and used for a certain purpose and what culture
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does with human beings is essentially the same thing you know we we've we're enculturated to believe that Society has our best interests in mind but really it wants something out of us we're being groomed for a certain purpose and a
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purpose we may not be evident to us but a purpose that exists and this is something that I often will point out when I write when people say oh you're such a Critic of spiritual culture and I say well no I'm actually not a Critic of
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just spiritual culture I'm the critic of all cultures because essentially what any form of culture does is create a format for being for existence and then requires its members to fall follow that format you can see it in fashion culture
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political culture all forms of culture and and there's an interesting anecdote I'd like to share with you it's you know I've spent many years living in Japan uh you know eight years closer decade and that's a highly conformist Society right
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that people tend to follow the rules very Law Abiding and all of that well there exists a subculture within a Japanese society called bosakozu and the bosakozu are these Rebel motorcycle gangs uh that ride around making a hell
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of a racket everywhere they go they wear the old um they carry the old Imperial flag of Japan with the sun and its Rays coming out of it and you can find them in big cities of Tokyo Osaka and things like that and and
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they kind of Pride themselves of living outside the Norms of society and being anti-establishment and all of that well what's really interesting about the Boston culture is that they all dress the same way they all have the same
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kinds of bikes they they use the same kind of language and they show up at the same times in congregate and behave in a very conformist way with within that subculture and so it's interesting to me that every time there is
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some kind of Uprising against the dominant culture whether that be a political revolution or some kind of a spiritual new way of talking or thinking or criticizing what is the dominant culture eventually over time that becomes a culture of its own we've
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seen that with Buddhism which you know the Buddha's teachings as pragmatic as they were 2000 years ago with 2500 years ago have completely turned into something else right if you especially go into southeast Asia and you see the
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forms of Buddhism practice there or in Japan with pure land Buddhism it's very similar to Christianity really so I want you to comment on that if you can about how culture forms the Genesis of culture even if it starts from a very original
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Place how it distorts over time no that's um a funny image that Japanese calls angels so that's that's that's tribalism um it feels good to be a member of a group and to be accepted and to be seen and to
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have a home to go to and all of this the problem with being a member of a group is then you are infected with the group mind and the group mine um may not be the best approach to living
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probably isn't um I'm much more interested in individuality I want to know what I see what I think what I care about I not have that explained to me by some authority figure and so as you point out
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in Japan these people are Rebels And yet when they form a group they become um subjected to the group mind um many people in contemporary culture want to be a member of a tribe actively they want to people they want to find my
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tribe I want to find my tribe and one example of tribalism that's going on right now John tollefson and I have been discussing this now for several months I think productively I like hearing from her she's a good friend
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um one example is the transsexual movement which I think began I should say at the outset that I'm not a Critic of transsexuality in any sense in fact I have two transsexual people in my life that I love very much
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one is recently deceased but I have I I had him for many years and my other transsexual friends still living and doing well and I I love her so this is not a critique of transsexuals it's a critique
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of this tribalism that has established certain boundaries for what can be said and how and if someone violates those boundaries that person is punished by the by this tribe so this tribe is a nasty manifestation of stupidity which makes all kinds of claims that
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cannot be backed up for example that sex is not binary it certainly is binary people are male or female when they're born yes there's a tiny percentage a small fraction of one percent of people whose genitals or or DNA
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might not be clearly male or female but that's tiny for the most part people don't have a sex that they were assigned at Birth which is nasty language they have the sexual out they have the sex that with which they were born
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if I say that now I am considered an enemy of transsexuals and I'm not I'm not an enemy of transsexuals because I say that a child of six or seven can't be trans they don't know who they are yet they must be allowed to live
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longer and find out who they are but know we want to take the word of a six-year-old child about what medical interventions are necessary it's insane and if I point that out I am pointing it out right now and I'll
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probably get some hate now when you put this thing on the internet because that's how it goes just like you got this big pushback for this last article that a viewers that I read I I laughed I thought it was
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really funny because the same thing has happened to me and the your critics are so stupid and I guess you must feel that way about them do you oh yeah absolutely I mean I'm open to criticism I always encouraged it but the
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criticism has to arise from a rational place where we can then further the discussion but when there's a shutting down of all this this sounds disgusting to me then obviously you know there's there's no intelligence there it's just
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a purely emotional and reactionary response and to your point Robert it's not just six and seven-year-olds and in fact uh where I live in Canada now and especially in the province of British Columbia which seems to be at the
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Forefront of this kind of um identity politics it's being mandated down to the daycare level where daycare uh teachers are not allowed to address children as young as to and three by their gender or by their by their sex
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biological sex they're not allowed to refer to a boy as a he or a girl is a she because that would be them assuming the child's gender and their child's gender is still up for debate and you know that's become the policy the public
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policy in place but I see that all of this manifesting is part of a a wider problem which we actually touched upon earlier where this is just an example of that platonic ideal on crack where now we have an entire generation
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and driven by a lot of political investment at the entire political establishment asserting that the ideal only is true and that the fact of your life is actually entirely ambiguous it's very bizarre but that's the underlying assumption that's what allows all of
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this rhetoric to fuel is them saying look you're saying biological sex is binary what I'm saying is it's not even real what's real is what I feel about myself and that is the social construct of gender and that only should
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be considered and we should completely neglect any facts of birth they're just inconvenient facts that we want to sweep under the carpet and that's a very dangerous slippery smoked embark on because Where's the Line in the Sand and
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where do we where do we say reality actually begins does it just begin in what I want to say about myself yeah that's a great analysis that's about the platonic ideals being being embraced and the individuality being swept under the carpet
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so I do think generous fluid and of course it is and we all know that um and so is sexuality I mean homosexuality is is a fact there's nothing wrong with it it's just one manifestation of human sexuality
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and I certainly can understand how someone who was born in a male body but could want to have the gender role that's more like what women have there's nothing really wrong with that in my view what's wrong with that in my
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view in my opinion is to distort biology entirely so that you can have your feelings about what you are it's Madness in my opinion and I this is very strongly held opinion I must say a woman is a mature human female she was a girl
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and then she became a woman now when she was a girl if she said if she says I don't really feel like a girl I feel like a boy okay that's understandable and the more that that culture divides
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the way that the two Sexes are permitted to express their Humanity the more compelling it might feel to redefine oneself in a gender role that sounds complex let me break it down a little if I'm a tomboy let's say
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in a more rational Society there wouldn't be any problem with being a girl but doing things that boys like to do or dress like a boy and grow up to do the kinds of things that men are allowed
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to do that women are not allowed to do that was a culture that I grew up in there was a very a very defined well-defined split between male roles and female roles that's disappearing now and I think that if it
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really disappeared entirely there would not be this need to change bodies so much um which I find bizarre all of this all of this sexuality to me is is really sad um and um well now I've really put my foot in it
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so I'm no exp now I'm expecting I you know I've gone on about this because to me this is one of the basic issues um that mitigates against intelligence people are being forced to on in public to act stupider than they really are
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because if they really express what they know and feel and then in themselves they might lose their position in society well it's bizarre to me that that anything such as a taboo subject exists anymore there's there's actually plenty
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of them they're proliferating every day and I think you and I are just wanting to as two curious intellectual individuals talk about something it doesn't mean you're right or I'm right but why should we not be allowed to
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discuss it in fear that it might offend somebody or we might get blowback for expressing a point of view it's that that is truly dystopian to me that that's even a consideration anymore right but I'm very much of the mindset
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that you are Robert in that bizarrely and I don't know if people see this that this very discussion about changing genders reinforces those gender stereotypes it assumes that there is something that it means to be a man and that is something
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that it means to be a woman and so perhaps you know someone who's born in a female body who exhibits traits of dominance and greater levels of regression and things like that might feel that there's an expectation of
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society that she be more agreeable and not assert herself as much and things like that and so she thought well well you know if I was if I was just a guy then this would not be an issue and you know
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similar to yourself I have um a few transsexual people in my life that I considered friends and I've actually seen that change where a woman whose transitioned to a man now in this male form and really the transformation is incredible because you
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know there's the facial hair there's a change in the tone of voice and the mannerisms and all of that it's you know they are almost unrecognizable now to you know the way they presented a few years ago and they seem so much more comfortable
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in asserting themselves in that way because the way Society responds to them is different now where they see a guy and guys will you know approach them as as men approach other men as opposed to how we might approach women so
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there is clearly that prejudice still in society that bias and how men are supposed to be and women are supposed to be but to your point we we as an enlightening Society we should be moving more towards breaking down those
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barriers not reinforcing them and then Jerry rigging this whole setup to take care of people's sensitivities yeah I agree I think you said it very well um and uh yeah I think you said it very well I wanted to talk about
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another Phenomenon with you and I think your perspective is a psychotherapist is going to be interested in this one and that is this whole culture around trauma counseling uh trauma has turned into a buzzword it seems and become an industry of its own
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in a sense and I think there's some parallels and connections here between you know why it appeals as a theory and an approach a technique so much to the this generation and some of the social phenomenon around transgender activism
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and things like that I think there's a connection here between trauma and the way we are treating it um I sat next to Dr Gabor mate many years ago on a plane I didn't know who he was at the time
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and we had a chat on the on the topic we talked a little bit about him and his background and at the time he was a you know columnist for the Toronto Star he he was still actively involved in
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working with addictions in Vancouver since then he's really blown up into the celebrity type person and and I think a lot of that has to do with this large cultural shift towards you know treating everybody as if they're
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traumatized and and PTSD and and wanting to work through that it becomes another carrot and a stick on a stick in my view just wanted to get your thoughts on that Robert and how you as a you know
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psychoanalyst psychotherapist would look at that cultural phenomenon around trauma and why that doctrine of trauma peels so much to people these days okay well a trauma is a wound but being wounded does not necessarily mean that one will suffer from
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post-traumatic stress disorder the the stress disorder is a reaction to the wound and what a wound that might precipitate stress disorder in one person might have little or no effect on another so this is really a very personal thing
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and it has to be discuss personally in psychotherapy and not just assume that everyone has been traumatized I mean that's a silly idea in my view um we were talking before about trauma in this no not trauma we were talking before
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about um about the trans thing and the group mind and in that group mind we have now arrived at what is called a microaggression a microaggression where for example if I call you she instead of they you have been traumatized maybe only a
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little because it's a microaggression but those microaggressions add up so that sooner or later you can identify as a victim and as soon as you identify as a victim now you have rights that you didn't have before you
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have the rights to be treated in a certain way and to be regarded as as someone who needs careful handling and careful attention and nurturing environment and all of that but I don't think humans are guaranteed a nurturing environment we may want one
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but we may not get one and it's up to each individual human to try to deal with that and to try to make a culture in which no one has ever heard or insulted or microaggressed against can't lead
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anywhere good in my opinion yeah I often will write about and talk to people about the fact that the expectation that life has to be a Level Playing Field is a delusion of its own fundamentally from a naturalistic
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perspective we're in the jungle here this is a jungle law it's either be eaten kill or be killed and every organism is using its own strategy that it's evolved to survive and now it turns out human beings that the most successful strategy
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we've had has been the the social strategy the ability to build large structures Beyond just tribes entire nations entire Global populations that are all bonded together by a shared belief system or shared ideal and so those beliefs have in in alpha or Corpus
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Keys um phrase he calls us time binders because we've been able to use these stories to link Generations together whereas animals don't do that they just live very much in the moment they don't know who their ancestors are they don't
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care they just live for this lifetime but in that process we've lost that sense of well what is real in this moment because we've gotten so lost into the story of it and I feel like trauma has become another story and
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so similar to how Once Upon a Time you know there were some very rudimentary laws in place to keep Society going which is okay just don't kill somebody else and if you don't kill somebody else you know those are the bear the bear
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morals we're gonna function around right don't steal stuff don't kill somebody else that's good enough then it became a more uh you know don't don't go and punch somebody in the face because then you'll go to jail for it there's a
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physical act of aggression a physical acts of aggression are unlawful then that went more towards speech as in hate speech well don't say things that could be perceived as an active aggression and so that whole Mantra of sticks and
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stones may break your and words will never hurt me that once persisted in in you know people would would Echo no longer exists right the the words can be more hurtful than than physical acts of aggression but it feels like we've now
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passed another threshold where now it's not just words but thoughts can become physical acts of aggression and I think that's where the idea of a microaggression comes in is that even if you're thinking in a an oppressive way
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or negatively or or discriminatory about somebody else then that can be treated as a you know a crime and will be dealt with punitively and I can't remember where I heard this but there's one of the podcasts I think is the Dark Horse
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podcast um they were mentioning how one of the professors at a prominent University United States was called up for disciplinary hearing because he he responded to a a trans person or I think his person trans person of color
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walking into the room and he raised his eyebrows it happened to raise his eyebrows at that time and that was perceived as a microaggression and this professor was written so now we're going to the realm of body language and facial
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expressions we're not just talking about words where does that end if you were to look into your crystal ball this is just a you know uh an active kind of intellectual exercise if you were to look into your crystal ball and say this
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is the trajectory societies are where does it end does it is there somewhere to get off that crazy train or do you think it's just kind of all headed towards some eventuality um I think let me just fix this
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okay I think there are some signs that we're moving back more toward the center lately I'm seeing that but I don't really have a crystal ball reflecting on what you just said earlier um the I the ideal Injustice previously was
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equality of opportunity and then a just society would give everyone a Fighting Chance that is changing now to equity which doesn't mean a quality of them of of opportunity but equal outcome and that's that's just absurd on the
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face of it um one woman is born beautiful and bright and another woman is hard to look at and to imagine that they there's some way to give those people an equal outcome makes no sense at all we are after all
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animals we have our attractions and our repulsions and we have ideals that go back in time that cannot be easily transcended these ideals of beauty and intelligence and athleticism and such and the people who have those attributes easily rise to the top
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of societies they may need to make an effort but if they make an effort they will rise whereas somebody who does not have those attributes might try and try and really be brave in crime and won't get anywhere
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so there is no equality of outcome there's no equity that can be guaranteed so when people looked at a set of cultural arrangements and say that they're not equitable I think they're barking up the wrong tree entirely and yet that's that's the
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current understanding in Western culture particularly U.S culture I should say I don't live in the U.S but I I was born there it's been more than 30 years since I lived there but when I observed it that is the
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epicenter of this stupidity and I think the Europeans are moving away now from some of these ideas they've seen through it in a way that the Americans have not sure so I want to ask you Robert what's what's on the horizon for your next so
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you've written these two books that have been very well received by by you know a niche group of readers who are able to see through the smoke and mirrors of as we call the spiritual industry and everything it promotes and and they've
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seen Great Value in your books um what's next for you are you planning to write anymore are you kind of done with the whole writing thing are you still speaking to people what's what's on the cards uh well I don't
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I'm not feeling pregnant with any with any further books I think I said it pretty well in fact the first book is being read all over the world and I hear from people and it's been translated now into other
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other languages so I hear from people from readers all the time and I usually spend an hour or two in the morning doing correspondence and dealing with all of that um but the rest of the day I devote to
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myself and the thing is that I love to do photography being one of them working with animals um in drawing time with my wife Catania we're both retired now we're living in a nice place and it's just great to be
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here I don't really feel that I have a lot more to give in this sense although I could be wrong but I think what I represent for a lot of people is simply a clear a clear mind and I believe that's true
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and so you know I'm just enjoying having a clear mind I won't be around that much longer anyway I'm an old guy now I'll be 78 on Saturday and um it's it's good to have arrived at us at
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self-understanding to the extent that one can relax and simply be sure well you know they say 78 it's a new 58 so I'm sure you've got still got some uh time to go but this has been this has
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been a great conversation Robert it always is whenever we we do meet and do have an opportunity to chat and I think this is the third time we've done this and I'd love to do another one sometime with you and perhaps even Paul Jones who
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was a mutual friend and uh who's whose perspective I value a lot so so we can chat about what that looks like soon well yeah thanks a lot Jim it's been great speaking with you and if you ever
Speaker A
can enlist John our freeway would be great having to draw that all right well thanks Robert yeah my pleasure I just wish you well I like what you do so just keep it up thanks Robert appreciate it [Music]
Speaker A
thank you [Music]
Topics:spiritual addictionpsychotherapynon-dualityspiritual bypassBuddhismmental healthspirituality critiqueRobert SaltzmanShiv Senguptaspiritual awakening
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