Speaker A
Muhammad is not prophesied in the Bible. Nobody else in history besides Prophet Muhammad has stepped forward to take that place.
Christian and Muslim women discuss key theological differences, including prophecies about Muhammad, Jesus' nature, and women's roles in Islam and Christianity.
Key Takeaways
- Prophecies about Muhammad in the Bible are contested and interpreted differently by Christians and Muslims.
- Jesus' nature as divine or prophet is a fundamental dividing belief between the two faiths.
- Islamic teachings emphasize women's dignity beyond marital status, contrasting with some Christian interpretations.
- The Trinity doctrine is challenged from a Muslim perspective as logically inconsistent with monotheism.
- Dialogue fosters mutual understanding despite deep theological disagreements.
What the video covers
- The video features a dialogue between five Christian and five Muslim women exploring faith, truth, and religious beliefs.
- A central topic is whether Prophet Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible, with contrasting interpretations presented.
- Discussion includes the biblical and Quranic narratives about Ishmael, his lineage, and the foundations of Mecca.
- The Christian perspective emphasizes Jesus as the Son of God, crucifixion, and resurrection, while Muslims see Jesus as a prophet and Muhammad as the final prophet.
- The concept of the Trinity and its monotheistic validity is debated, with critiques of Christian doctrine from a Muslim viewpoint.
- The role and dignity of women in Islam versus Christianity are examined, including the question of whether Islamic men may beat their wives.
- The reliability and interpretation of the Quran and Hadith are discussed, highlighting differences in scriptural authority.
- The conversation touches on theological implications of divine deception and interpretations of Jesus' death and ascension.
- Participants address misunderstandings and seek to clarify religious doctrines respectfully.
- The video aims to bridge understanding between Christianity and Islam through honest and open dialogue.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Muhammad's Prophecy in the Bible
- 05:53Ishmael, Mecca, and Foundational Islamic Rituals
- 10:27Prophets and Scriptures: Jewish, Christian, and Muslim Perspectives
- 15:00Jesus' Nature and the Trinity Debate
- 23:03Women's Roles and Rights in Islam and Christianity
- 31:43Scriptural Authority: Quran and Hadith Discussion
- 37:22Theological Implications and Divine Deception
- 43:02Closing Thoughts and Mutual Understanding
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
Have you ever considered maybe because he's not prophesied in the Torah and Gospels and maybe that's why we don't accept him?
Speaker A
Jesus did not die. That doesn't make any sense. He's merciful. He heard Jesus and he answered his prayer and he took him up. So the reason why this is an issue is because, like it says, Allah made it appear. So now
Speaker A
Allah is deceiving people. Islam is more empowering for women than Christianity. Allah recognized that women have dignity and respect outside of being married to a man. They're not a man's property. Is it ever okay for an Islamic man to beat
Speaker A
his wife? Trinity is not monotheistic. If this is your prompt, come on down. One can't equal three and three can't equal one. Like that's just like math.
Speaker A
So to explain it to a child is not the basis on determining truth. The Quran is not the word of God.
Speaker A
Who's coming up for this? The hadith is something that you have to take with a grain of salt. I don't expect the Quran to teach me how to tie my shoe or work a microwave, you know, but for the things that the Quran is
Speaker A
bringing, those details should exist. Today, [music] five Christian women and five Muslim women are coming face to face for a conversation about faith, truth, and what it means to truly know and [music] follow God. Christianity and Islam are two of the largest religions
Speaker A
in the world. They both claim to worship God, recognize many of the same biblical figures, and teach the importance of prayer, obedience, morality, and living a life devoted to God. But despite those similarities, there are fundamental disagreements that separate these two
Speaker A
faiths. Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he was crucified and resurrected, and that salvation comes through him. Muslims believe that Jesus is the Messiah and a prophet of God, but not God himself, and that
Speaker A
Muhammad is a final prophet through whom the Quran was revealed. Those differences raise some of the biggest questions at the heart of both religions. And this is what we're here to discuss. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Dav. Welcome to The Bridge.
Speaker A
Welcome, ladies. The first prompt is Muhammad is not prophesied in the Bible. If this is your prompt, come on down.
Speaker A
Hi. Hi. My name is Yasmine. My name is Belle. Muhammad is not prophesied in the Bible. And really, I do feel like this is a very standard Muslim claim. So, I will be putting the burden of proof on you. And so, really,
Speaker A
I just like to hear why you think and what verses you would use to point to who Muhammad is. And before you do share, I want to make sure we're talking about the right Muhammad. Right. I know many Muhammads. Uh, one of my
Speaker A
neighbors' names is Muhammad. My classmate in high school is Muhammad. One of my Uber drivers I've had many actually are named Muhammad. Um, and I also know many Ahmeds as well. Okay. So I know multiple Ahmeds. I know multiple Muhammads. And
Speaker A
the thing is they're not Muhammad ibn Abdullah sallallahu alaihi wasallam from the Meccan Arab tribe of Jurhum which Ishmael married into in Mecca from the tribe of Jurhum. So I'm looking for that Muhammad who also migrated to
Speaker A
Medina, etc. That one. Okay. So I need something in the Bible that's pointing to that and not just this and that that would apply to any Muhammad ever.
Speaker A
Um, I don't know why it would apply to any Muhammad ever. Um, because that would kind of be ridiculous for all of time because, yeah, the prophet couldn't be an Uber driver. Um, however, I know from a very limited
Speaker A
understanding of the Bible, admittedly, that there were verses in the Bible that spoke of a coming of another person after Jesus. And nobody else in history besides Prophet Muhammad has stepped forward to take that place who embodied the
Speaker A
characteristics, who came with the book, who came with confirmation of the previous scriptures other than him. And if there is anything in the Bible that points to another person, um, I'd like you to elucidate that for me.
Speaker A
Yeah. So I don't believe that when Jesus says that he's talking about another human coming. So I believe as a Christian and according to the scriptures that that's the Holy Spirit.
Speaker A
Now let's just say I grant that that is a physical prophet coming. Okay, there's still no evidence provided thus far that that would be Muhammad.
Speaker A
Okay, for Jo it could be Joseph Smith. Okay, Joseph Smith says there's prophecies of him in the Bible. So for all we know, Jesus could be talking about Joseph Smith, right? My contention is that even if there's, and of course
Speaker A
the claim that the Muslim claim is that there's prophecies of Muhammad also in the Old Testament, right? Not just the New Testament. From the Old to the New, there's this coming prophet.
Speaker A
And that's the claim again. But now I'm investigating this claim because the same book that is talking that you guys say is talking about this coming prophet actually severs the relationship of who, let's just say if it was coming of
Speaker A
Ishmael and Muhammad. And I'm not saying that Muhammad is not an Ishmaelite at all or he's not an Arab. I'm also not saying the descendants of Ishmael were not Arab. I'm saying that according to Sahih Bukhari 3364, Ishmael was an infant when
Speaker A
he went to Mecca. Abraham brought him in Hagar there. Left him there. That's where you get the Zamzam. That's where you get the Hajj. That's where you get the Kaaba. That's where you get the Sa'i ritual.
Speaker A
All the rites, right? All of it. Right. That's also where Ishmael marries a Jurhumite woman. Okay.
Speaker A
In Mecca. Now the problem is the same Bible that Muslims appeal to to say that there's prophecies of Muhammad talks about the same separation story of Ishmael.
Speaker A
But it's completely contradictory. They don't go to Mecca. They go to Beersheba and Ishmael is already a teenager. He's about 17 years old already. Abraham also doesn't take them. Hagar and Ishmael are actually cast out. But the Quran, um,
Speaker A
explains both instances from when he was an infant and then when he was older and he returns with his father to raise the foundations of the Kaaba. So both of those are valid.
Speaker A
The Quran, so I don't believe the Quran says that. I think so. In Sahih Bukhari 3364, it says that Abraham would visit Ishmael. Um, well, he would try to one time he came all the way 800 miles from the Shem from Canaan all the way
Speaker A
down to Mecca 800 miles south and then met with his first wife and then didn't see Ishmael. Finally came again and again and finally he comes down and then builds the Kaaba with Ishmael. And we also know that Ishmael reached the age
Speaker A
of puberty and then married. So he was an infant and then reached the age of puberty. The thing is according to the Bible, Ishmael was separated from Abraham not when he was an infant but when he was about 17 years old. And this
Speaker A
isn't just a scribal mistake, okay? Because the way we get Ishmael's age being 17 is starting from multiple chapters that say, "Oh, at one time Abraham was 99 when Ishmael was 13. A year later Isaac is born." And then you
Speaker A
have to do all this math and eventually you conclude that Ishmael was 17 when he separated from Abraham. So nobody just like accidentally messed it up. Okay, but forgive me, I'm confused. How does that lead to disproving the prophecy of Muhammad in the Bible?
Speaker A
Because if Ishmael never went to Mecca according to the Bible, that same Bible would not be talking about Muhammad who is from the tribe of the Quraysh tribe who comes from the Quraysh clan who comes from the tribe of Jurhum. And
Speaker A
that's only established because Ishmael allegedly went down there and married a woman when he was not when he was a baby, but when he grew up to puberty, right? So, so that story is not compatible with the same Bible that
Speaker A
you're saying. Is it because of the timeline or because you're saying that he is never was present in Arabia at that time?
Speaker A
Ishmael was present in northern Arabia where P
Speaker A
foundations of the cabba with his father false. That's correct. And him marrying a woman uh and him marrying the marrying a woman from the tribe of Jerham because in Genesis 21:21 we see wait let's go to the first the first
Speaker A
debunking of saying that never happened. He was never a baby. He was never in the valley of Becca with his mother Hagar and he never raised the foundations of the Cabba with his father Abraham.
Speaker A
Correct. But based on what? The same Bible that you guys say there's prophecies of him in the Bible says what though?
Speaker A
It says that so the same story. So because the only reason you know all of that about the site Hajj Cabba the raising of foundations it's from Abukari 364. There it's in the Quran.
Speaker A
Yes you're correct. So both so Islamic sources, authentic authoritative Islamic sources. So that same narrative that has Ishmael being separated from Abraham.
Speaker A
Okay. Is there's one there's a version of that in the Torah, but that version makes the So I'm glad you mentioned the Torah. So let's put in a pin in the the debunking of Isma was never in Arabia or never in
Speaker A
that part of Arabia. He was never in Yeah. He was never in the Valley of Becca in that area to in order to marry the woman from Jum which would give lineage to Muhammad.
Speaker A
Correct. cuz he he marries an Egyptian woman in the Bible. Okay, let's put a pin in that. Um, but cuz according to our understanding, he married two different women.
Speaker A
Yes, I'm aware. Okay. So, was the second woman an Egyptian like the Bible said?
Speaker A
I don't know. [clears throat] It it so they're both neither of them were Egyptian. So, the the Bible says that he married Egyptian woman. Okay.
Speaker A
So, either way, it's not compatible. Okay. So according to Jewish scripture, they also foretell of a prophet that would come and he had characteristics and Jewish scripture. Can you clarify what you mean by Jewish scripture?
Speaker A
The Jewish scripture in the So that would be the Torah, which is what I was talking about the entire time, the book of Genesis. So we have the same book.
Speaker A
Correct. So again, when a prophet was sent and he came with books, they said, "No, but it's not him. It's not him because we were expecting him to be Jewish like us." and the fact that he's an Arab,
Speaker A
it's not him. He can't be the guy. So, what I'm saying again is, so you would say Deuteronomy, sorry, I don't want to cut you off with that line of logic. Deuteronomy 18:18, I don't know if you're aware of it,
Speaker A
that wouldn't be talking about an Ishelite. It would be talking about Israelites. So, remind me of the the verse in Deuteronomy.
Speaker A
It says, "One among you, right, your brothers, your brethren." So, yeah, of course, we as Christians, we interpret that to be within Israel.
Speaker A
Muslims will say that would be Ishmael, right? But you just said the Jews because they are cousins to one another, right? So cousins are still brother. You said when the Jews found out that he was an Ishmaelite or
Speaker A
an Arab and not a Jew. Okay. So Deuteronomy 18:18 wasn't clear about him being an Arab because they were caught off guard.
Speaker A
Mhm. Okay. So Deuteronomy 18:18 is not clear about it being an Israelite. Okay. I'm I'm trying to understand what you're saying.
Speaker A
So my point is based on both scriptures of there being foretold of one to come and descriptions of that person coming and then when one such man does come and he's the only person to come with books and with evidences and with scripture
Speaker A
and confirming the scripture, both Christianity and Judaism says not the guy. Where is he? We're still waiting.
Speaker A
And both religions are still waiting for this person who's set to come. You say it's the Holy Spirit.
Speaker A
But right before we jump somewhere else, do you have you ever considered maybe because he's not prophesized in the Torah and gospels and maybe that's why we don't accept him?
Speaker A
No. Okay. So that is the reason when I when I exedute the scriptures and examine it thoroughly and without bias, I don't see uh an Arabian but it is prophesized, right? So you'd have to provide that proof. So where would you be getting
Speaker A
that from? And you'd also have to somehow harmonize the two Ishmael narratives because they they don't coincide. So do you know what age Ishmael is circumcised?
Speaker A
No. Okay. According to Islam, you don't know. No. Okay. So I mean circumcision is typically 7 days after birth in Islam.
Speaker A
Okay. So that's according to the sunnah. So I don't know the sunnah of the time when he would have been circumcised.
Speaker A
Okay. Ishmael was circumcised when he was 13. Uh according to most Islamic scholarship. And well, I guess there's no point going here if you're not too familiar with the talking point, but a lot of Muslims, the standard is to
Speaker A
connect the blessing of Ishmael that that goes to Muhammad with the covenant of circumcision, right? Because Abraham gets circumcised when he's 99 and Ishmael is 13 and they're in Canaan. And Abraham is also given this covenant of circumcision that's in Genesis uh 17
Speaker A
when this happens. And the only problem and then Muslims will appeal to that to to say, "Oh my gosh, Ishmamail is special because he's he's with this covenant clearly because he also got circumcised." I personally don't see it
Speaker A
that way. But even if we take that right again, that you would have to throw out Sakari 364 and the Quran because at that time Ishmael is clearly growing up in the sham, right, in the Levant and he's already 13. That's a very
Speaker A
different Ishmael from the Islamic one. The one in Islam grew up without a father. He was an infant and he was and he was abandoned and until he was well he wasn't abandoned.
Speaker A
Okay, you're sure. I don't want to misrepresent what you guys believe. He was he was he grew up without a father and he married a woman when he he reached the age of puberty. And then also when Ishmael and Abraham were
Speaker A
separated, Isaac was already born in the Torah but not in the Islamic narratives because after because you know Mount Mina is where the supposed sacrifice of Ishma happens, right? And it's not until after that that the revelation of, oh, Isaac will
Speaker A
be born to happens. So again, we have two different narratives, two different Ishmamails. And so if the scriptures or if if the Bible and the Torah, the Jewish scriptures are talking about an Ishmaelite prophet coming, well, it still can't be Muhammad. Even if they
Speaker A
are talking about an Ishmaelite prophet, I don't believe that, but let's just say they are. It's not Muhammad. It's someone else according to the Bible.
Speaker A
Who is that someone else that fulfills all of those um requirements? Well, it would depend which prophecy, but specifically like yeah, you'd have to give me specifics, but I would say I'm speaking here completely as a disciple of God, right? Because this
Speaker A
is how reision religion is revealed. It's revealed to the common folk, not the people who are scholars, knowledgeable. It's revealed to people and people are the ones whose hearts are guided to religion to accept or to reject faith. Correct? So from that
Speaker A
perspective, if there is a foretelling of one to come after Jesus and Jesus confirms there's someone who will come after me and in some verses says his name will be Ahmed or his or in the Jewish scripture it mentions the word
Speaker A
Muhammad and there's different things that suggest that there is one to come. So then when one such person comes and he comes with proofs and he comes with a scripture and he comes with a um commandment from God, we're like it's
Speaker A
not that person. So, I'm just saying there hasn't been anyone else yet in time. We're now 2026. We're still waiting. Who is this person that has fulfilled this need? So, as a common person who admittedly sitting here before all of you, I'm not well versed
Speaker A
in the Bible. I can't throw out, you know, the the verses of that says this is what it says and and then in the Torah or in the Talmud. I don't know. I know from the standpoint of one was sent, he came
Speaker A
with proofs, he came with a book, but rejecting him, we're saying that's not him. So who is it?
Speaker A
So whether I do believe it's Jesus, but whether or not provide evidence for that still does not provide evidence that it was Muhammad. And so I really need to focus.
Speaker A
Did you say you believe it's Jesus? I do believe it's Jesus. But didn't Jesus say I have to go away so someone else can take So let me just wrap up here. So even if I produce evidence for you that it is
Speaker A
Jesus and we can I would love to do that after this. It still doesn't provide evidence that it's Muhammad. If it's not Jesus, it could be Joseph Smith. It could be after there's no evidence to prove that it's not Muhammad. So there
Speaker A
is evidence to prove that to Muhammad and and it's because it Isaki Bkari and the Quran characterize Muhammad as a very specific he was in Mecca and he was from the cures tribe a descendant of Ishmael from the tribe of Jorum and they
Speaker A
take that from migrate to an area they would migrate to Medina the Medina Tiba. Yes. And so he would be he would be between the date palms and the date groves and there was specific attributes that were given that
Speaker A
he would have on his back. Can I can I cuz this is my closing statement. So um if I can just finish. So all of all of those things that you just said that he will migrate to the Tya born in Mecca,
Speaker A
migrate to the Tibba and his his rule will be the Sham. Actually there are sources saying that that should be in the Torah. That's actually what Jews one Jew really was claiming about the Torah at the time in Yemen. And we don't have
Speaker A
that Torah in Yemen and neither do we have that Torah anywhere else. And so my question would be that Torah that they're referencing about the specific name of Muhammad and about where he was, where he went, all these things. We
Speaker A
don't find that in today's Torah or the one in Yemen in the 7th century, pre-7th century, post 7th century. We don't have any of that unfortunately. And it's corroborated in extra biblical sources and all these copies and cexes of the
Speaker A
Torah. And unfortunately, the only thing that says otherwise is uh the Hadith and the Quran. and it doesn't corroborate anything else that has come before.
Speaker A
Thank you guys. [applause] Thank you ladies. That was a very fruitful discussion. I would love to hear from you. Anything you want to add to that discussion or anything you want to leave us with?
Speaker A
Yes. So, uh, the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was definitely prophesied in the Bible. I'm trying to remember what Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy, Joshua. I can't remember which book it was, but it does say it says that
Speaker A
in the Gospel of St. John. I'm trying to think. I can't remember. But it says there will be a prophet and I will put my words in his mouth and he will say exactly what I reveal to him.
Speaker A
Now we all know how the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him got the message of the Quran. He was illiterate and those words came from Allah subhana wa ta'ala down to him.
Speaker A
We know that. Correct. And in the Bible again that verse said I will put my words in his mouth and he will. So it's very obvious that's not Jesus. Thank you.
Speaker A
All right. A lot was said. Um Bel did an excellent job breaking down how that can't be Muhammad. Jesus specifically lays claim to being the prophet like Moses. He said that everything the prophets wrote, including Moses, was about him.
Speaker A
Also, the person coming after Jesus is the Holy Spirit. He says it specifically. Muhammad is not the Holy Spirit. You know who is the spirit of Allah?
Speaker A
Jesus according to the Quran. So even for you, Jesus is the prophet like Moses.
Speaker A
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Speaker A
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Speaker A
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Speaker A
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Speaker A
Thank you for being part of the Dr. [music] Dap Show community and we'll see you on Patreon. And the next prompt is Jesus did not die.
Speaker A
If this is your prompt, come on up. That's me. Howdy. Hi. God bless. I'm Ty.
Speaker A
I'm SA. May peace be with you. Amen. Amen. So the prompt is Jesus did not die.
Speaker A
And I want to put this in the forefront because I want to understand the Islamic account as to why Jesus did not die. So you can go ahead and start off.
Speaker A
Oh yeah. I I mean I can make that pretty simple. Um he prayed to God to save him.
Speaker A
He asked God to if this is possible for you to let this cup pass through me, let it pass. And yeah.
Speaker A
Is that in the Bible? Yeah, it's in the Bible. Oh, I'm asking from the Islamic account.
Speaker A
Well, well, this is going to confirm. I'm going to tie it all back in together.
Speaker A
Well, I mean, are we learning? Are we Yeah, I'm asking from the Islamic account. So, I want to know like Well, okay.
Speaker A
Cuz we can't we can't pick it. I know you guys say that the Bible's corrupt.
Speaker A
So, it's like I'm not even trying to go there. The original form of the Bible is So, why do we pick and choose it then?
Speaker A
Um, I think that it's important if we're sitting here to learn, let's learn. Whether I use the Bible to confirm what it is that you believe or I use the Quran to confirm what it is that I believe. When I say something about the
Speaker A
Bible, I'm trying to communicate with you in your language. Okay? So that being said, um this is something that is confirmed in the Quran that I agree with that is said in the Bible that I believe that part is still real. Um in the Bible
Speaker A
it says Jesus says he was praying all night. He knew somebody was going to betray him. The Quran confirms this. He asked God to protect him and to save him.
Speaker A
The Muslims believe that in the Quran it says for them saying in boast that we killed the Messiah Jesus son of Mary but they killed him not nor crucified him but God put the resemblance over another man and they killed that man. And it
Speaker A
ties back into the Bible where Jesus, if that was Jesus, do you believe that he knew he was going to die for mankind's sins? Do you believe that?
Speaker A
Yes, I do believe that Jesus Christ knew that. Hence why he spoke to the father and said, "Okay, right." So he was already knowing what was going to happen to him.
Speaker A
Correct. You believe that? Correct. Okay. So he accepted it. Correct. Yes. This is a it was a predestined plan. The lamb was slain before the foundations of the earth.
Speaker A
So if you know that you came to do something God told you to do, you would not fight about it [clears throat] or anything. You would just be like, "Okay." Right.
Speaker A
Jesus said on the cross, "Lord, oh Lord, why have you forsaken me?" That's not something somebody who came here to die for you would say. Cuz he would know that my purpose is to be sacrificed for mankind. So the Muslims believe whoever
Speaker A
said that, it wasn't a believer. It was whomever they took in place of Jesus. We believe Allah took him up with his body and soul and we believe that he will return [snorts] and that they of course they wanted him dead. We're not in we're
Speaker A
not in arguments about this man came and shook up the world. Okay. People was cutting up. He was like for us he's like our big brother with superhuman powers.
Speaker A
Right? So at that time he didn't come for all of mankind. He came for the children of Israel. He came to set them back in place of what they stop because that's that's a whole another point to bring up. So from what I'm following
Speaker A
through, what we're doing is we're quoting the Bible and we're quoting the part where Jesus says,"Lord, Lord, where have you forsaken me?" Yes.
Speaker A
Right. Well, actually, prior to that, we're speaking about father. I don't know how many times I've emphasized this. Jesus speaking to the father, right?
Speaker A
To the father. Yes. To the father. My father. Oh, there's been times where he said my father for sure. But the point is we're we're looking at that verse. So he's saying he's speaking to the father. So already that that's problematic. But
Speaker A
he's speaking to the father and while he's in communication to the father, he's aligning with the will of God. Not my will, but let your will be done. So with that being said, now we know that this is the will of God the father to
Speaker A
have this plan. This was God. So it was his own will. Yeah. We quoted the we quoted the Bible and we basically quoted the Bible to prove the Islamic account. However, that's still problematic because things within that same chapter actually
Speaker A
disprove what Islam says is should like should not be held to. So basically that Jesus Christ never died, but literally Jesus Christ already knew the will of the father that he was going to end up on that on the cross. Jesus Christ on
Speaker A
the cross said, "Lord, Lord, why have you forsaken me?" But what you're doing is you're going to take away the fact that Jesus Christ was on the cross. And then insert a new a new account saying someone must have been that person, but
Speaker A
it wasn't Jesus Christ. The Bible says it was Jesus Christ. So now according to the Quran it says people said it was Jesus Christ not the Bible.
Speaker A
Oh yeah the B No. Okay. Well we the people saw that Jesus Christ said that.
Speaker A
So and it was clear as day because after that they took his body off of a cross.
Speaker A
So that's Bible as well. But now my question is according to the Quran I'm trying to understand like who made it appear? Was it Jesus that made it appear that he died or was it Allah that made it appear?
Speaker A
But see that's where we keep getting hung up. No, no. I'm asking you from the Islamic account cuz I know you said earlier, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Yeah. You said Allah made it seem like, but I want to make it
Speaker A
clear. So Allah made it appear, right? Okay. Can I Are you ready? Can I talk?
Speaker A
Okay. So, um, Allah said he put the resemblance of Jesus over another man and they killed that man. And those who are in doubt have no certain knowledge.
Speaker A
They follow nothing but conjecture. For sure. They killed him. not Jesus the son of Mary. So I'm going by Allah's words and I know that Allah says he's most merciful and most gracious and he has never taken human sacrifice for anything
Speaker A
in the history of man. Like you never had to give your baby. Matter of fact, when he inspired Abraham to do that he replaced him with a ram. He's like you ain't got to give your you ain't got to
Speaker A
do that. So he made it appear right. Yeah. So just like how he made the ram appear instead of Ishmael.
Speaker A
Okay. So the Muslims believe it's I think you guys think it's Isaac. Got it. So he So Allah made it appear that it was Jesus. However, it was not Jesus.
Speaker A
But that was for the people who were trying to kill him. You got to understand it wasn't for the righteous.
Speaker A
The righteous knew what happened to Jesus. But the text doesn't say that though. The text doesn't say that. You're inserting that.
Speaker A
I'm I'm telling you the righteous knew that Jesus didn't die. But the unrighteous who were hang them hang them. THEY WERE EXCITED about it.
Speaker A
So thank you. You told me the Quran didn't tell me. So we're back to the Quran now.
Speaker A
I'm trying to finish. Can I finish? But no, you could finish Saw, but I'm just saying like we only have a couple of minutes, so we have to keep we can't monologue right?
Speaker A
I'm trying to explain to you, okay, the what the Quran says. You didn't want me to go into the Bible, so I'm going into the But the Quran doesn't say exactly what you just inserted. It says, "Allow me to
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appear." I put the resemblance of Jesus over another man. Yes. Correct. So if Allah made it appear like that, then you can't blame any of us for being Christians here because he is the foundation of my faith.
Speaker A
Oh, I got you. He made it appear. I got you. You like you can't hold us accountable FOR FOR GOD TRICKING US.
Speaker A
Not even that. Not like but it's but this is that's why we're talking right now because the believers at that time the Jews who believed in Jesus they followed Christianity. They stopped being Jewish.
Speaker A
They followed Christianity. And the at the moment Jesus got crucified. Well I'm I'm not saying all that. We're talking about we're talking about if Jesus died or not. Right.
Speaker A
Okay. says after Jesus death kept the tradition of believing God killed himself because again is Jesus God.
Speaker A
I do believe that Jesus is God. He has the the hypothetic union fully God fully man 100% man% killed himself.
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Jesus Christ assumed human nature. So when he assumed human nature the flesh the flesh it's a yes or no question.
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Is Jesus God? I said yes and I elaborated to help you understand what we mean by God.
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Did God kill himself? the flesh. No, just say yes or no. Did God kill himself?
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That that I can't answer that in the way that you wanted to because that doesn't make that's not the that's not how we understand God to be. That's right.
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I DIDN'T SAY IT doesn't make sense. I said that's not how we explain it.
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But there shouldn't be an explanation. It's yes or no. There should be an explanation. You said yes. And so God is the one running the show, right? So God killed himself. He put his person in Jesus and killed himself.
Speaker A
Keep speaking because I still don't understand how this proves that Jesus did not die because they're the Trinity doesn't die. that that that still does not prove it cuz Okay, this is what I'm trying to prove.
Speaker A
So, you're saying God died. Okay, this is not that's not what I'm trying to say. We're talking about Jesus, right? And this is the problem.
Speaker A
Allah made it appear that Jesus Christ died. That is the issue to why historically people have made numerous accounts and it is historically a lot of pe historically accounts have been made about Jesus Christ dying on the cross.
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not from just Christians but from secular people such as Josephus people that didn't believe in Jesus Christ at all and you even have Tacitus as well.
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So at the end of the day, we have Paul, we have Tacitus, we have Josephus, we have the scribes question and they gave a question.
Speaker A
This is a two-way conversation, not a oneway. They gave a question. If somebody chopped your mother up into pieces with an axe, would that got to do with the prompt?
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I'm just going to say, if somebody chopped your mother up into pieces with an axe, would you walk around with an axe necklace to remind yourself of if Allah made it appear of her mother?
Speaker A
Well, if Allah made it appear that way, then that's a sad case. And that's this is blasphemy. They're teasing you.
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They're like, "Hey, we killed your we killed your guy." So off topic. So off topic. But I'm saying that's why it didn't happen. You got to reason with me here. You seem like a reasonable girl.
Speaker A
You're telling me that God died. Who was running the show if he died? He laid it down. Of course, they want it to look like they killed our prophet Jesus. Of course, they hated him. We're upset about it. The Muslims are really
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upset about this. And Christians need to be upset about this, too. I feel that Christians use his death as a way out, like a cheat code. But God doesn't do human sacrifice. Bow does.
Speaker A
So, I'm just I'm just going to have to address it because the prompt is Jesus did not die, but she keeps on mentioning Jesus Christ, and it's a violation to the triune nature. So it's a misrepresentation. I'm going to have to
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clarify it. So we believe in the hypoatic union. Jesus Christ was fully God, fully man. He took upon flesh.
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That's what he did. That's pure Bible. So now when he was in the incarnate in the incarnate body, he decided to in alignment with the father's in line with the father's will to take upon the sins of humankind by doing the atonement, the
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sacrifice. So when he went up on the cross, the human nature died, but the divine nature never died. And that's point blank period because we understand God can never die.
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Jesus because we believe he's coming back. Does he have to be rebirthed again? No, we do not believe he has to be rebirthed again because if you actually read the in jail, you will see that Jesus Christ already has a glorified
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body. Hence why he came back to Thomas and he said, "Hey, look at the holes in my hand." And then and then Thomas said, "My Lord my God, my Lord, my God." Are we having a conversation? You know,
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oh, well, I could look other way. But you know what? I'm so You know, I'm still talking to you at the end of the day. No, I don't know because you're not giving me eye contact when you're looking over there. And when you're
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having a conversation, you talk to the person looking in front of you. All right. Fine.
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That's so I can look into your soul and you can look into mine. Um I I need you to reason with me for a second. Okay?
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And you have to understand our position, please. It just doesn't make sense to us. God will not kill himself. He doesn't need to put himself in something and kill it.
Speaker A
Okay? He has the power to forgive us all for all our sins. He didn't have to give out no blood sacrifices. Okay. Ba likes blood sacrifices. That's his favorite thing.
Speaker A
Oh yeah. Okay. So God ain't Ba. God is more merciful. And he's definitely merciful to Jesus. He mean Jesus prayed and God said, "I ain't caring about your prayer." That don't make no sense. He's merciful. He heard Jesus and he answered
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his prayer and he took him up and we're waiting on him to come back and finish what he left off doing.
Speaker A
Okay. So, thank you Sah for um explaining everything that you explained. However, the prompt was Jesus did not die and I asked for the Islamic account. However, you took me to the Bible and the Bible still was a burden
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of proof on you because nothing in the Bible ever aligns with the Quran. I'm sorry to say, mind you, the Bible came out first. But anyways, so you took me there, didn't approve anything about how Jesus did not die. Then you asked me to
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not misrepresent, but you misrepresented the the triune nature of God. Or should I speak or should I actually say people are watching be truthful or or the or the divine nature of Christ, right? You misrepresented that.
Speaker A
I quoted the whole Quran for you. Misrepresented the hypothetic union. Misrepresented the divine nature of Christ. So the reason to why this is an issue is because like it says Allah made it appear. So now Allah is deceiving
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people. He's deceiving people to believe, oh yeah, it was Jesus Christ. Go ahead, believe it. Not really caring for those people's souls as well because everybody needs salvation. But instead, he's like, oh yeah, you could go ahead and believe that Jesus Christ didn't
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die. I'm going to make it go ahead and seem like that. And that is and by by your paradigm, if that is the case, then he is at fault for Christianity because he made it seem like Jesus Christ died
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on the cross. And guess what? The foundation of Christianity is the You got beef with God, HUH? YOU LIKE, "WHY YOU trick us?" No, I don't. [laughter] But there goes that. There you go.
Speaker A
Thank you. [applause] So, ladies, that was definitely a spicy conversation. The axe. I know you're butcher, so I'm going to let you have that.
Speaker A
But I can't help it. I I [laughter] I know that's what you work with, but um I do want to hear from you ladies. Maybe we can start on this side this time.
Speaker A
Anything that you want to add or take what you took away from the conversation? Any thoughts that you want to add to it? I really wish that there was more interaction from the Muslim side specifically on what was what Tai
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brought up, which is is Allah deceiving people to be Christian. It did seem like it came into a debate more on the hypoatic union and her misunderstanding of the hypothatic union, saying like God can't kill God and that's not only a
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straw man of what we believe. You kept telling my sister, you know, are we talking or not, but you you're you're completely misrepresenting what we believe, you know, and so I wish that that could have gone better, but it
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didn't seem like they were actually able to address the topic at hand. Thank you. Anyone else want to speak into that?
Speaker A
I'm not fond of how that conversation played out. And Sawa, you know, I like you.
Speaker A
You did a lot of misrepresenting of what Christians believe. And there's a lot to unpack from you. You saying that Jesus was swapped out on the cross and saying, "Why would he say, "My God, why have you forsaken me?" He's quoting a psalm.
Speaker A
Yep. So if you studied that in good faith, you would know that the biggest issue that wasn't dealt with was that Allah made it appear that Jesus was crucified. There's no historical evidence for that. And then 600 years
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later said, "Psych, I pulled a bait and switch." And that is why Allah in the Quran is called the best of deceivers because if he lied to the people and made them think that Jesus was crucified again he created Christianity but it's
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disingening to say that God killed himself because if you properly represent what trinitarians believe it's one being three persons the son is not the father. So Jesus dying on the cross is not God killing himself. You understand that the hypothatic union
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exists if you studied this. In order to make a true rebuttal to the Christian belief, you are required to represent it in good faith.
Speaker A
And I am shocked to hear you say, "Oh, did God kill himself? Did Did God have a god? Did Jesus kill himself?" Uh, like that's that. When you watch this back, you're going to see how you came across.
Speaker A
And I'm stunned. I'm I'm very disappointed. I I I really expected you to steal man to steal man the Christian belief and you did not do that in this conversation and you didn't deal with the issue. Um, just going back to the
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actual prompt, uh, I want to say that have any of you guys actually seen the so-called, uh, autopsy of Jesus Christ's uh, body after he was crucified?
Speaker A
No, cuz he resurrected. Cuz he it is a thing. No, it's not. So, we believe that God definitely would not the way the torture that happened on that so-called cross that Jesus was on. Our God, the God that
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we pray to, no, it wouldn't have happened. Not in a million years. There's no way.
Speaker A
Thank you. To feed him water so he could stay alive so they can continue to torture him.
Speaker A
No. Yeah. God. No way. Okay. Um because it it was addressed at me. Um what you heard was sincerity and passion. And like I said, I don't feel that our merciful God would ever do that to a man like Jesus. And I believe that
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he answered his prayer. And I don't think I'm wrong for believing that because our God is merciful and Jesus asked for protection. So, you're telling me that no, our God is not merciful and Jesus had to go.
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[music] [music] [music] [music] The next prompt is Islam is more empowering for women than Christianity.
Speaker A
You're assigned to this prompt. Come on down. Hi, I'm Shayla. Hi, good afternoon. My name is Nadia.
Speaker A
And um this prompt the framing I don't you already know you talked to me earlier. I don't really like to compare more or less. I just know for me Islam um has examples of where women are empowered and I tend to find solace in
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that and I use it in my everyday life to elevate myself as a Muslim woman especially in the modern world. I think um a lot of times we have discussions around like uh women in careers, right?
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Or women that get married older and we're like why are you getting married older and stuff like that. There's clear examples in the Quran. We have plenty of Muslim women that have done things that are great examples on how they use their
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path on this life to empower themselves to be closer to God and to serve God.
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And so that's why I believe Islam is empowering to women. I don't want to discredit if any of the women in the room have felt empowered by some of their belief systems. I want to go to what Islam actually teaches. And so I
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want to ask you a question based on once again the the teachings of the Quran according to Allah the prophet Muhammad.
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Do you believe it's ever acceptable for a man to beat his wife? That's often misqued. And actually the Quran speaks to the rights of women. And we are told that the best of men are the ones that treat their wives well. They're supposed
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to be gentle and kind to their women. And so a lot of times we see in real life, unfortunately, there's domestic abuse in all religions, all races. Um I hate to say this, jerks come in all races and creeds. [clears throat] True.
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Um, so I do know like a lot of men do misquote that particular verse and use it as a justification, but I like to go back to what's in the Quran specifically to women. So women have rights like at a
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time when women were allowed to initiate divorce. Islam gave them that right directly in the Quran saying that you do have the right to divorce a man and you have rights that go to you during that divorce process. Um it even says in
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narration that um like men are judged with how they treat their wife or soon to be ex-wife during that divorce process and that there's great reward and if you're uh treating them with respect and kindness.
Speaker A
Yeah. Like I said, I've never I'm not saying that Islam has never said something nice about women or even the prophet saying like treat your wives kindly. I would say what does it mean to treat your wives kindly? What does it
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mean to be good to your women? So I would like to repeat the question. And I'd like a direct answer. Is it ever okay for an Islamic man to beat his wife?
Speaker A
The word beat. No. I believe that you're trying to hang on this one word. And I'm not I'm not ever going to advocate for domestic violence. You're not going to get me to say that and have a gotcha
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moment. I'm not going to do a gotcha moment. I want to know what you believe.
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In my religion, if you think it's a moment, that means you must be ashamed of something that I'm not ashamed. Maybe you're ashamed.
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I'm not ashamed. I have rights in my religion that were enumerated. Allah recognized that women have dignity and respect outside of being married to a man. They're not a man's property. And that is why it was encouraged for us to
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keep our last name. We actually did not take a last name. So it's never a man to be his wife. And I was actually speaking. Thank you. So um now it's like a trend, right? Women are like, "Oh, maybe I'm not going to
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take the man's last name." That was something that was honored to us because we were understood to be a person before marriage, during marriage, after marriage. We have careers. We have inheritance rights. We have um ability to have the
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knowledge, right? We're able to go learn. We have examples like uh Kada, most important example I would think for me personally, she owned her own business and she had her own money. She was taking care of herself and an
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independent woman. She didn't need any man and she actually saw the profit for his good attributes, not what he could provide to her in terms of money or financial and saw that he could complement her business and worked with
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him. So what you're doing right now is you're monologuing about all of the good things that you believe with is is within Islam like you're pointing out to this one woman. You're saying, "Well, we had this one right." But you're not actually
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reasoning. You're not reasoning what I believe is not empowering in any way, shape, or form to women. which is where it says in the Quran 4 that men it also says it in the Bible it says it says that oh really please
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give me the scripture in the New Testament where Jesus or any my prophet never said okay yeah my prophet has never my prophet my prophet has never said that it's okay to be a woman so I'm going to ask you for the third time now
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is it ever okay uh yes he is a prophet is is it ever okay yes that's not the gotcha you think it is we believe we believe Jesus is a prophet thank you also Lord and Savior of we're
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building bridges. That's what we're doing. Is it empowering for women when they're told in their holy book that their husbands can sometimes beat them? And I know that there's lots of additives sometimes of they add the word lightly.
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They'll say, "Oh, this is not what it really means." What does it mean when it says that if you have suspicion, it doesn't even say if your wife is for sure disobeying you, you have proof of it. It says if you have suspicion that
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your wife is acting in ill conduct that you can beat her. What does that really mean? What am I misinterpreting there? I would like you to read the whole context of that.
Speaker A
What's the context I'm missing? Tell me. It's your holy religion. Tell me what context I'm missing.
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So anyways, like you want to hold in on this. If you don't know the context, what is the context?
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I do, but I'm not going to like you that gives men the right to ever beat their husband or their opposite. I wish I got that [laughter] actually. Just kidding.
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I would like to know the context there. So my miss prompt again was whether Islam empowers women and I was giving you examples how Islam empowers women.
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You want to go to one specific example in the Quran? Well then let's talk about all of them.
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Sure. The only reason the only reason I wanted to stick on this one was to try to see because you want me to say that domestic violence is okay and I'm not gonna say that.
Speaker A
What? No. I'm actually hoping that you would say it's wrong and I already did. So I don't know why we're on that.
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And so that you can then say because the question was can an Islamic man can he ever do that? And you're saying, "No, you shouldn't do that." But there's I'm saying he should follow the religion that says he should treat his wife
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kindly. And I think beating a wife for no reason is not kind. That's my personal opinion.
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So here's there's now a conflict between what your religion is saying and what you know is true. You know that it's always wrong for a man to ever lift his finger towards a woman, but you don't know how to reconcile that. It says in
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the Quran that he can at some point in time do that. So that's what you're saying. You're like, "That's not what I believe. I'm not trying to get you to admit domestic violence that you accept that. I'm happy that you're saying
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that's never right. I'm getting you to concede that there's rights for the women in your religion that is allowed and even told of men to do sometimes.
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And that's where I would say that's not empowering. And you could say, well, we get these rights and we get that rights.
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What's the point of having certain rights that basically every woman in the West has these days? What's the point of saying we have these specific rights if at one point in time it was said that a man can ever lift his finger on a woman?
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What I think you're missing that we have the right to get justice from wrongdoers in our religion as well. So if he wrongfully raised his hand to me, I would seek the proper justice. That is my actual answer. That's funny that you
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did that. Aisha did that. I wore a green dress today cuz there is a hadith where Aisha, it says that there's a woman who is a Muslim woman and it says that her skin was as green as her dress. And then
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Aisha came to Muhammad and said, "I've never seen the women treated this way except for the women who are believers." She's speaking of Islamic women because she her skin was green because she was beat. And what did the prophet do? Did
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he say this is wrong? Did he say, you know, you certain don't lift your hand?
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No, he didn't condemn it. And even Aisha tried to get justice for this woman and said, why is her skin green? Why is it that Islamic women are being treated like this? And what did your prophet do for them? He said, "Great. I'm glad at
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the end of his life he said treat your wives kindly." My question is, what is Muhammad's version of treating your wives kindly? Because if it's able to beat your wife, I would say that's a very different version of treat your
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wives kindly than what most people would call to the Quran. There's a whole chapter on women specifically and that's where I would get my guidance on how to treat like if I was a man trying to follow Quran I would get my guidance
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directly from that chapter on what it means to treat their wife with dignity and respect to make sure that they are well taken care of provided for and they're supposed to be the safe space for them. That's my answer whether you
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like it or not. That's how I feel in my heart. So, so Tom, I I just want to say that I do I I want to specifically tie this to Christian uh marriage. In Christian marriage, women and men are seen as he
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owns her body, but she owns his body. There's equality between them. And it also says that they're supposed to love the husband's supposed to lay his life down for the woman, right? And that the woman is supposed to honor and respect
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her husband. There's this mutual love, this mutual respect amongst them. But I just continue as I continue to study, I'm seeing that there's these discrepancies where it says that women, specifically in Sahi Aljami 7725, it says if a man were covered from head to
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foot with weeping soores, oozing pus, his wife, if she was to lick all of the soores, she would still not fulfill all of the rights he has over her. So, I understand that this might be offensive for some of you women to hear. I
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understand that a lot of you guys don't study your own hadith. This is a hadith that is saying that the man has so much rights over the woman that even if she was going to do this grotesque ask of uh
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task of licking up his oozing pus, he's she still this is the rights he has over her. She she still would not fulfill them. How is this empowering towards women if this is something that is not maybe not maybe not taught in your by
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your local imams? I'm sure they don't like these hadith. I'm sure they don't like putting the Quran in context because then you're going to actually see that women are not empowered with in Islam. They like to focus on what you
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talked about the rights that women get, but they so conveniently don't read these hadiths. They conveniently don't put the Quran in context when it says that you can beat your wife and they try to add words that aren't there like beat
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her lightly as if that makes it any better. That was a lot to unpack. Um hadits are not the direct word from God.
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So a lot of people that's why they don't put any emphasis on it. They only believe in what was revealed in the Quran. So that's probably why you get some people that are rejecting it or don't study it. And I'm not going to
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dignify something that didn't come directly from God. That's my personal. So a lot of Muslims are different and some do study the hadith. So I'm not trying to take away from them. They could speak on that if they'd like. Um I
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wasn't just saying like oh the rights, right? I try to say that there's actual Muslim women that are great examples like we have a whole chapter on mother of Jesus Mary and how she's a great example to be um a servant to God. And
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so there's certain things that we're asked to do as Muslim women to be elevated. And another thing that I would just want to touch on quickly because I know we're almost out of time is that I feel I'm empowered by Islam. And I'm not
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saying that Christianity or Christians can't be empowered, but for me personally, I'm empowered by the idea of modesty. U modesty looks different for different people. So I'm not going to tell you like you're not modest, right?
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You're dressed very beautifully. But um what I'm saying is like the actual concept of modesty is that the purpose was that people were supposed to be judged by, you know, what they bring to the table emotionally, spiritually, educationally, not by just their looks.
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And for me, I find that to be empowering because women, we have a hard uh job in this society. We're always being judged by how we look. So that's also something that I found empowering that I was told
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I'm more than just what my body or face looks like and that my mind's important, too.
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You can have that in Christianity, too. Yeah, of course. Thank you for that discussion, ladies. I would love to hear what your thoughts are. anything that you want to add to that conversation on this site?
Speaker A
I just want to add one thing. So the word that I believe the sister was trying to refer to with hitting is means to depart, not to hit. And it actually comes very descriptively in a time where it is instructions given for
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what do you do when you guys are disputing a husband and a wife and the third instruction I don't remember what the first two were but it's something that makes sense like first you talk to them right don't
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sleep in the bed don't and then the third one is which is incorrectly translated as and hit them. But it means and depart them.
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And in another part completely separate from this, it says literally that means hit the ground. But contextually that would make no sense because what actually happened was they departed the ground. So it is established that does not mean hit. It
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means depart. When you are disputing, give space. Yeah, she she covered it. Um I just wanted to say that um I I I feel a lot of feminism with these kinds of questions, you know, and um it's to make
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us feel inferior in the religion of Islam. And I can say as an American Muslim woman, I lived overseas for eight years and I was taken back by how beautiful and how uh spoiled these girls are and how we have too much on our
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shoulders in as American women. Like we're overworked and underpaid. Honestly, we don't get paid as much as men. We um so while you're pointing the fingers at Muslims, um there was a big push in Saudi Arabia for women to drive.
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I lived there when nobody could, no women could drive. I had a driver. I was balling, right? They was taking me and dropping me off. I didn't have to find parking. And so the West looked at that like, "Those women are so oppressed.
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They need to drive." And now women are driving us kids to school and we're doing all this stuff. I'm like, "Man, y'all messed it up for all of us." So there's certain things we don't want.
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We don't want your feminism. We're happy being ladies and being soft and letting the men run things. And if he if a man even think about hear me Lord and actually and actually being being um housewives if we would like to stay home
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we can and being completely financially taken care of and at the time of marriage while Christians I think an engagement ring probably or a ring um we are given a dowy you can't even [clears throat] touch us not even touch
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without giving us a dowy which is usually um cows. It could be anything from whatever you desire. A house, a car, I mean whatever you want these women over in girl I'm okay on this side.
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Yes, I was going to say watery bahuna means strike. um it's the same word used in chapter 19 which clearly means strike and so it doesn't change its meaning based on the text and there's even a hadith that describes Muhammad's
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response who tells them to yes strike but no harder than a mish hawk which is a toothbrush a feather which which is to strike them with a toothbrush but I as a woman don't want to be struck at all and this verse is
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very significant to me because as a former prosecutor I used to work in the domestic violence division in a specific county and everyone in this county could attest to the fact that a majority of my cases were Muslim men that were beating
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their wives. So, this is a very and this is not something that I'm making up.
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This is not something [clears throat] that I had a bias to. This is something that made me look into 434. That was the first Quranic verse that I ever memorized because of where I worked. So I think in real life you actually see
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that this verse is being lived out that there are people that understand watery bahuna to mean strike and that's why we had the amount of cases that we had coming from that particular belief system.
Speaker A
I see. Okay. Thank you for that. So after watching um the previous discussion, so I think Nadia did a good job being honest on the DV because I think we all agree that we're not for it. But then people like me who aren't
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in the Quran or people who have never read the Quran and hear okay women have these rights have these rights and then someone steps in and says okay but you know the Quran has authority right and the Quran says in this chapter that you
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can strike them. How do you think that we're supposed to feel reading that like I don't want to be put in that position.
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I wouldn't want even for a person of an opposing belief to get put in that position. And unfortunately because of that verse it brings allowance for that case to happen. Hence why she's put in situations where she has to defend this,
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right? And they use their religion as an excuse. And I just feel like I understand the part where I know this was discussed, but I understand the part of oh um women had privileges like where they shouldn't drive or they couldn't
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drive. But it's like I don't see necessarily how that's a privilege because even if you did have the ability to drive, the permission, excuse me, even though you did have the permission to drive, doesn't mean you're forced to
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drive. I feel like this is why a lot in the Middle Eastern women wish that they had certain privileges. And I'm going to be very sensitive when I say this, but if you know, you know. It's so sad
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because they go back to their books. They go back to the hadiths. And this is why we see women struggling in those areas across, this is not just the West, across with certain rights that they're not allowed to because of this certain
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book. And then the narrations as well that's in it. And the next prompt is the Trinity is not monotheistic. If this is your prompt, come on down.
Speaker A
Hi, I'm Aisha. Hi, I'm Chinasa. The prompt I'm challenging today is that the Trinity is not monotheistic because I believe that the Trinity is monotheistic. And obviously, what I mean by monotheism is the study of God being one. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker A
Um, your God is not one, it's three. Um, it can't be one. It's impossible because you have three separate entities which is the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Um, when I was a child, I used to be very confused in church. There was
Speaker A
a lady next to me saying, "Thank you, Jesus." There was a lady in the aisle saying, "Thank you, Holy Spirit." There was a lady in front of me saying, "Thank you, Father." I didn't know who to thank. That's how I got here.
Speaker A
Okay. Okay. I understand that. I don't think confusion should be the basis on which we determine if something is true.
Speaker A
Explaining. That's good. I appreciate the explanation. And I'm just saying that I don't think confusion should be something that we use to determine that's the reason why well because we're discussing I'm saying that's why it's not monotheistic because it's three
Speaker A
separate entities and that's why I brought up the three ladies that were in the church because they all screened out three separate I guess three separate gods because you believe that all three are gods.
Speaker A
Correct. No, I don't believe that they're gods. I believe that they are God. And so that's a misrepresentation.
Speaker A
You believe that all three are God? Yes. Okay. So the three ladies were all screaming out God but with different names.
Speaker A
So yeah. Yes. That's that's not problematic. So again, I don't think that confusion should be the basis of determining truth because this is a truth claim. This is not a preference. This is not a subjective opinion. This is discussing
Speaker A
whether or not something is true. And as a Christian, I believe that the trinity is true. And my belief is based on divine revelation, specifically scripture. This is how we glean any understanding about God's nature.
Speaker A
You understand I guess Allah to be uh in line with the doctrine of obviously the worded is nowhere in the Quran, but you what do you do? You look at patterns and you formulate an understanding. And we as Christians do the exact same thing.
Speaker A
So how exactly is the trinity monotheistic if okay for instance in I think it's Luke 22:42 uh Jesus says not my will but yours and he's talking to the father correct this sounds like a discussion between two people with two different mindsets
Speaker A
I would disagree. I would say that in order to capture our understanding, you would need the entire context of who Jesus claimed to be and what Jesus was while he was here on earth. When Jesus came to this earth, Philippians 2 says,
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"He being equal to God did not in one part cuz he also says that um but I like to finish. He being equal to God did not consider it robbery to make himself of no reputation, coming to this
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earth, taking on flesh, being found in the appearance of man. He made himself a bondervant and he became obedient to the point of death. That probably sounds like word salad, but that's very critical to understanding my belief, my
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understanding, and the common understanding of who Jesus was. Emphasis on he being equal to God did not consider it robbery to make himself of no reputation.
Speaker A
The father the father's greater than me. It hinges on this. He being equal to God.
Speaker A
Which one is it? Can I answer? Sure. He being equal to God did not consider it robbery to make himself of no reputation and he came to earth. He came to earth and took on flesh. This means that while he is on earth, he is also in
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flesh. He is also fully God. I'm answering the first question that you just asked me. So when he makes statements like not my will but your will, what we're seeing is an interplay between God's human nature and his
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divine nature, it doesn't cancel out his divine nature because he had a human moment. It actually makes him more relatable to those that call him God. So no, it does not detract from him being God. And no, I do not believe in three
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gods. And I hope that somehow I answered so that my my position can be properly represented. Okay. Do you have children?
Speaker A
I do not. Okay. Because to explain that to a child. Okay. So to explain it to a child is not the basis on determining truth. I cannot explain to a child how the mitochondria works in the cell. But that doesn't mean
Speaker A
that the mitochondria does not provide energy in the cell. So if your basis on determining truth is whether it's easily explained, there's a lot of things that you would not be able to consider truth.
Speaker A
How does the sun stay suspended in the sky? Do you know? It's actually just very very immensely just like how does your heart how does your heart pump blood into your chest specifically now we're just we're just talking
Speaker A
I'm challenging the premise I'm going to ask you this Jesus prayed right absolutely okay so who was he praying to the father okay and him so did the father ever pray back to Jesus the father praised Jesus he
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did the father ever pray back to Jesus the father praised to Jesus. Can the Holy Spirit pray to the father?
Speaker A
He does in the book of Romans. He makes intercessions for us. Okay. And the Holy Spirit can pray to Jesus if he So they can all frolic together. They all pray all together.
Speaker A
No, that's a misrepresentation and it's a it's a caricature of my belief. And I think earlier there was an issue with not representing beliefs correctly. And I hope to represent your beliefism honey.
Speaker A
It is monotheism because the Bible says that God is one. Hero, Israel, the Lord God is one. Are you familiar with that verse Deuteronomy 6:4? Are you also familiar with the fact that the word used to describe one is ead, which is a
Speaker A
compound unity. It's like if I said me, in fact, Genesis 2:24 says, "And the two shall become one flesh." That has no sense honey.
Speaker A
That's a husband and a wife becoming one. Just quoting scripture. No, I'm making a point.
Speaker A
That has nothing to do with Can I answer? Because it seems like So, in Genesis 2:24, it says, "The two shall become one flesh." Obviously, you and your husband are not one in a in a literal sense. You're one in purpose and
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unity and in all these great things. So, the word being used shows that you can have a compound unity. There's a word for strict oneness, right? And it's the word yak. But Moses intentionally chose to use the word ead, which means
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compound unity, just like one band, one sound. If you've ever seen the movie drum line, that's the same concept. So, if you're going to tell me that it's not monotheistic, that it's not in line with scripture, why does Moses communicate to
Speaker A
all of Israel that the Lord God is one using a compound unity? What? That's fine. If it's over your head, if it's over your head, no, literally, my head hurts.
Speaker A
But that's fine. The No, let's get back to the trinity. So, like I said in Luke 22:42 when he said, "Not my will, but yours." This is a conversation.
Speaker A
A conversation between two separate people. No. The father and the son. No. Okay. They are separate. They look one can't equal three and three can't equal one. Like that's just like math. Like this is like come on. I'm like trying to get it
Speaker A
through your head. Like it doesn't make sense. It's not common sense. Okay. So, back to what I was saying from the beginning. Common sense is not the determining factor for truth.
Speaker A
That's what you have to say. No, that's what is true because you can't explain to me based on common sense.
Speaker A
See how you're interrupting me? So, I'm going to continue. I'm sorry. You cannot tell me all the intricacies of the human mind, every organ in the human body. You cannot tell me the intricacies of how the sun stays
Speaker A
suspended in the sky. That is not common sense. Those are things that are not readily available to humans. But yet those things are still true. So what I want to communicate to you, I'm trying to get through your head is that you
Speaker A
have to because I believe most what I'm trying to let me finish. Can I finish what I'm trying to get through your head is that the determining factor for truth should not be common sense. It should be what is revealed. And what is
Speaker A
revealed in scripture is consistent that God is one and he's expressed in three persons. He is one. Okay. Do you have That's not our belief. You You're going to tell me what I believe. If you're going to tell me what I what the
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scripture says, what history understands scripture to say, that's not fair to my position. I'm not telling you what is.
Speaker A
I'm asking questions and I want to hear the perspective. It says Allah, he does not beget nor is he begotten.
Speaker A
That's why we do not accept the Quran as being true. We accept the earlier revelation that came directly from God, which says that God is a father and it says that God is one and he's expressed in three persons. I can rattle off
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probably 35 three persons. Yes, I can I I can rattle off so many verses that would demonstrate that point.
Speaker A
I never said that. So, you're now being dishonest and the video is going to play back.
Speaker A
I have been a Christian for 15 years. You heard me wrong because I've never for 23 years.
Speaker A
Well, I don't believe a person that knows Christ ever leaves Christianity. So, if you say that you were a Christian for 23 years, the likelihood is probably you never understood it and you never really were submitted to God. Well, you
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said it confused you from the beginning. So, I don't believe that you were genuinely probably in Christ. I went to Christian school from kindergarten to fifth grade.
Speaker A
If I stay and sleep in a garage, I'm not a car. No, I was every single Sunday.
Speaker A
Location or what you grew up doing doesn't determine what you are. You said it yourself that from a young age you were severely confused and you never understood and that's to you. But there's people that understand it and there's there's
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people that understand how the scripture is revealed and they praise God just the same.
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Is rapidly diminishing. It's not about the Bible says that many are called but few are chosen. So I don't care about the numbers.
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Is the fastest growing religion in the world. Many are called but few are chosen because people want to rely on their logic where the Bible says lean not on your own understanding but in all your ways acknowledge God. So I don't have to
Speaker A
go by logic and numbers and who's doing what. I go by what is true because what God reveals about himself is superior to what the numbers say about Islam and all of these things. That's not a legitimate argument to what I'm expressing.
Speaker A
Okay. So, back to the trinity. In my belief, I don't believe the trinity is real.
Speaker A
The word trinity is not in the Bible. Is not in the Quran. Okay. So, then what are you bringing that up for?
Speaker A
Well, back to the trinity. All right. Let's go back to the trinity. [laughter] Back to the trinity. Um, three in one.
Speaker A
Yeah. It just doesn't make sense to me. It's not It does not make sense.
Speaker A
I don't find Tahed sensible. Does that is that one God? No, because it's purely monotheistic. It's one God that has no distinctions. And in in all honesty, when I study the it really does break my brain, one and two, let me say this. And
Speaker A
secondly, to me, it's an attempt to overre you to tell me you want to tell you want me to believe in three and one.
Speaker A
It's an separate entity. This is my honest opinion about you want me to believe that opposed to believing in one God, one creator of the heavens and earth.
Speaker A
My honest understanding about sahed is it's an attempt and that God has a son or a daughter or a husband or wife or whatever.
Speaker A
My honest perspective about tahed is that it's an attempt to overcorrect and delegitimize Christianity because there are certain things that he discusses like God has a hand, he has a foot, but we don't know the hand or the foot. Hold
Speaker A
on. We don't know if that from the Quran. I read this in the Quran. I read the footnotes and I actually read the Quran that he has a hand and a foot. that he has a foot, but we can't conceptualize
Speaker A
if it's a foot, how our feet are feet. And so, there's all of these things. And the point I'm trying to make is these things are heavily refuted and they're trying to be overcorrected to delegitimize the fact that Jesus is God
Speaker A
and he came and took on flesh because there's even a doctrine. No. Okay. Well, he claimed to be God.
Speaker A
Jesus, he claimed to be God. The bathroom that doesn't He ate God does not eat.
Speaker A
Is God limited? Does not use the bathroom. Is there something that God cannot do?
Speaker A
Is he limited? Is your God limited? He does everything and he's all knowing. So he can do everything on earth yet on a cross.
Speaker A
Contradiction right there. He does everything but he's not. You're limiting God and you're taking on the role of God because God can do all things. It doesn't make sense.
Speaker A
So are you God? No, I'm not God. Then why are you saying God can um No, you couldn't. But no, that's not my position. That's not my position.
Speaker A
You're not fully God. You are just fully human. So my position which you keep misrepresenting you just limited God. I just want you to know I want you to know that you're limiting God cuz you said God can do all things
Speaker A
but he cannot do this and that is a contradiction and that is not consistent. No, you know what I'm saying but you keep misrepresenting my point and I just correctly misrepresented your point. God is one but he's expressed in
Speaker A
three persons. Hallelujah to the most high God. I'm listening. One cannot equal three and three cannot equal one. That is a direct contradiction in itself. Philippians 2.
Speaker A
Though he was equal to God, he did not consider it robbery to make himself of no reputation coming to this earth taking on flesh. That's the position of the Christian. If that is not something that [clears throat] resonates with you,
Speaker A
I hope that one day it will because that is what God has revealed about his character. God bless you.
Speaker A
[applause] All right, ladies. That was a pretty heated discussion. I would love to know if there's anything you want to add or anything you want to say to that last prompt.
Speaker A
I think that was a difficult discussion um between the two religions cuz that's the main difference when uh we look at all the similarities between Christianity and Islam. Um so that's obviously going to always be contentious. uh something that like is
Speaker A
hard for me to resonate the trinity as someone that studied Catholicism for around 14 years. Um we learned about like early church history and how there were competing factions and how I believe there were like four main thoughts. So, one school of thought
Speaker A
believed Jesus was fully human. The other one he was fully God and the other one um which ends up being the winning dogma, fully divine and fully human. I forget what the fourth one is. It's been some time. And [clears throat]
Speaker A
um but just because there were like competing factions at the time and we see that men were the ones that got to go to the table and decide which one was the one to believe in. That's kind of
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what makes me question it a little bit. But I think um the sister on the other side did like a good job in representing her belief and so I did appreciate hearing that perspective.
Speaker A
Thank you. Um yeah, I'd like to speak after that. That's you can tell she knows her stuff like she has rationalized the theology in her brain and to her it probably sounds like it makes so much sense like
Speaker A
she's got it. But for us listening, we're like, "What?" It it we know we went to school, learned ABC12, 123 and basic math things. And I said this before on a previous show that um when we're talking about God, it has to be
Speaker A
something that a child should be able to comprehend because this is like the fundamental start off of our life, right? Who is God, right? The first thing you learn is who created us? and her theology is something that it takes
Speaker A
somebody to go to college and kind of sort this kind of stuff out. We have people at home, just regular people living in small towns that didn't go to fancy colleges and get fancy degrees to uh dissect this. Um I'm one of those
Speaker A
country people and I can't dissect this. Um, and I know my Lord, it makes his his uh existence easy for me to comprehend. And thinking of one God, I want to go that route.
Speaker A
It's just easier. I know y'all think it needs to be complicated, but he's God ain't complicated. And it's not fair just to say God God is here. Nothing created him. He begets not nor is he begotten. And there's nothing co-equal
Speaker A
or comparable to him. That's like, "Oh, I could get that." Because uh for instance, in nature, you see some funny stuff. You're like, you'll see flowers that look like a woman's private part.
Speaker A
You're like, who thought of making a flower that looks like, you know, that is like divine, right? And to give all the credit to Jesus that he might have been the one to do it, who he was created
Speaker A
and you don't give the credit to the creator is just uh mindboggling to me.
Speaker A
Thank you for sharing. Yeah. On this side, what would you like to to say?
Speaker A
I was going to say, I don't know how many more times we have to say it cuz there's been previous episodes where it's been said. This episode it was said multiple times and I guess I'll say it one more time even though I feel like at
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some point I feel like we're talking to a wall cuz it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if something is understandable.
Speaker A
That doesn't make it any less true. And she, my sister, gave plenty of really good examples of like, we don't understand necessarily how the sun, you know, it how it hangs in the sky. We don't understand necessarily how our but
Speaker A
it doesn't matter. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it any less true. But me and my other and my all my sisters, we're all apologists.
Speaker A
We're trying very hard in settings like this and on our own platforms to try to explain and defend the Trinity because if they're saying, "Well, I want to understand it," then great. We we're trying our very best. There's a lot of
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Christian apologists trying to explain the Trinity, but if we every time we try to explain it, we get answered with, "Oh, this is hard to understand, so it must not be true." Like, you know what I mean? It's like, which one is it? Do you
Speaker A
want us to try to explain it to you? We don't spend time doing that, though.
Speaker A
We don't have a back and forth. I'm not I'm No, I want you to finish.
Speaker A
I'm just letting you know how how it feels as a trinitarian. You know, one moment they're like, "We don't understand it." And we try to explain it. the next you try to explain it and it's like well I don't get it right away
Speaker A
so it must not be true and the final prompt is the Quran is not the word of God who's coming up for this I'm Christina Hi I'm Doa Hi Doa hi so the reason that I say that the Quran is not the word of God it's
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not about a gotcha or anything like that. But the Quran makes several challenges and I feel like some of those challenges have been met.
Speaker A
So I wanted to discuss those with you. Okay. So to start off the first one that I want to talk about is called I like to call it the bring something like it challenge.
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So in chapter 17:88 it says say if mankind and the jin gathered in order to produce the like of this Quran they could not produce the like of it even if they were to each other assistance.
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So Allah is saying nothing like the Quran can be created by a creature. No creature could come up with anything like it.
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Well there's a hadith is sahibari 402. It's narrated Umar bin Katab and he says my Lord agreed with me on three things.
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I said I wish that we would pray in the station of Abraham. And so the verse was revealed about praying in the station of Abraham. Um that's chapter 2 verse 125.
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And then regarding the veiling of women I said oh Allah's messenger I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from men because good and bad ones talk to them. So the verse of veiling of women was revealed.
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Then he uh the wives of the prophet had made like a united front against him.
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And Umar said to them, "It may be if the prophet divorced you that my lord will give him instead of you better wives than you." So this verse was revealed and it's in uh chapter 66:5.
Speaker A
So going by this hadith, three different times Allah agreed with Umar bin Katab about something he said and then that exact verse was revealed. I feel like that shows and demonstrates that this challenge was met. So I want to get your
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thoughts on that. I want to start off by saying that when you quote hadith, you are understanding that you're quoting human narration.
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The hadith is something that you have to take with a grain of salt. I am of the belief that there is absolutely a force out there that has existed since the Quran was revealed to try to make people who believe in God
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seem a little cuckoo. [laughter] Yeah, it is laughable. It is laughable. I laugh at it, too.
Speaker A
You have to understand when you actually sit down and you look at the characters that existed around the time when narrations in hadith were written down, there were some um bad characters around there. There were people who slid money
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in order to put a hadith in a certain book. So if we want to have the prompt of if the Quran was truly written by the divine, the almighty, the majestic, I cannot sit here with the hadith on the
Speaker A
table. Okay, we're going to talk about the Quran itself. Let's let's do it. Okay, so and I had a feeling there was a chance this hadith might be rejected. It is sahi but I understand that not every single Muslim takes all of the uh
Speaker A
hadith. So let's get into the actual verse itself. Are the what does it mean for something to be like the Quran?
Speaker A
Can I go into the first page of the Quran? Absolutely. Go wherever you want to go. Okay.
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I think that if you're going to say what does it mean for a book to be actually divine as in there was no uh person human writing it and saying I was inspired by God. The Quran explains or
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claims if you want to use that word that that's not what happened. It wasn't an inspiration. It was an it was a revelation. So me as a human and I want to put this out there. I I'm not married
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to Islam blindly. If genuinely I find something that makes more sense, I will take that path. But if I am a human and I come with all my human flaws, right?
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Sometimes I'm in this mood, sometimes I'm in that mood, sometimes I'm scared, sometimes someone did me wrong, all this stuff. I want to know that the book that I'm coming back to that claims to be divine is going to enter my soul in the
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way that I need it in that moment like a prescription would. If it can do that to me that that that is divine. So most of us humans are are sin. We're sinners. We're flawed. Most of us only go back to our
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scripture, unless it's part of our job or our studies, when we're in pain, when we're hurt, that's when we go back to our scripture cuz we're we're seeking something bigger than what a judge can give us at a court
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or seek, you know, you go through a divorce, someone owes you money, someone died, a genocide is happening. You're like, what? Nothing makes sense. That is when you go back to your scripture. So when I go back to my scripture in those
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times and I open that first page and and I'm like and God is telling me in the very first verse that he is speaking to me, he is telling me that he is alman.
Speaker A
Now even if you do not speak Arabic, can you hear that those two words are a little bit similar?
Speaker A
Okay. Yes. Okay. So one word means that I am the one who uh who who gives temporary mercy and the second one is I am the one who gives permanent mercy. Now if I'm reading this as someone who let's say
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you know some a rapist is walking around free right or someone who did you wrong is walking around free. Well, God is telling you, "Don't worry. I am the bestower of permanent mercy." As in, when that criminal inhales, their lungs
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are going to inhale oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. Yes. But I am also the bestower of temporary mercy. So, don't worry, your justice is coming. Gotcha.
Speaker A
So, if I'm gathering some of the attributes that you gave to the Quran, um, one of them was that when you read it, you feel something. And another one was the rhythmic nature of it that there are certain words and there's a flow to
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the Quran. And I would say that perhaps you're saying in order for something to be like the Quran cuz the challenge isn't for it to be exactly the Quran. So we know that the Quran is unique in that you guys
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believe that it is the direct revelation of Allah. But for something to be like it, would you say it would need to be something that when you read it, you get a feeling, you get comfort when you're reading it out loud, it has a rhythm to
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it. Would you say these are attributes that are similar or are fit fitting for something to be like the Quran?
Speaker A
No. No. And there in lies our problem. So in chapter 17 88, are the details of what it's what it means to be like the Quran, are they listed there?
Speaker A
I don't know. You tell me. No, they're not. Okay. And so we have Allah saying there's nothing in creation like the Quran. And creation can't come up with anything like it. But then we don't have the details on what it means to be like the
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Quran. So if someone were to come up with something and they said, "Hey, this is just like the Quran." How can you justifiably argue against what this something like it is and say, "Oh, no.
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It doesn't meet these criteria, so it's not like the Quran." I understand where you're trying to go with this. And I think it kind of makes me feel like a big part of these types of discussions is almost like people obsessing over
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comparing one book to another when in reality truth seeeking is about really finding the meaning of life and who created us and everything around us and what what it's all about. So, if you're going to read a book,
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you should, let's say, let's say we're talking about um the the times of of of slavery, right? And a slave opens the Quran and it tells that slave, "I am the God for you to to worship. You do not have a master." Imagine what that
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feels like to a slave. Imagine how freeing that is. Imagine, hold on a second. Imagine idol worshippers worshiping all these idols, but you know they they're being told by these 1% elite, which is the historical case that was happening in Becca or Mecca at the
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time, to give all of your riches, your gold, your jewelry, donate it to the idols, and then who scoops them up?
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These 1% elite, we have a different form of that in 2026. But when these people read this and then it it tells them, you're free from that. You're free from that. I hear you, but and I do find it
Speaker A
interesting because you mentioned if you're comparing one book to another, but that's not really where I'm going with it.
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Is it fair to see these challenges in the Quran and say, you know, Allah is saying this is how you can distinguish that this is the word of God.
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And so I'm and there's multiple similar verses that talk about bringing something like the Quran, make a sural like it. And then we don't have these details. So I'm I'm trying to take the Quran for what it's saying. Allah is
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saying nothing can be created like it and we don't have those details. And that brings me to my next issue, the lack of detail. So in 12 chapter 12 verse 111 and in 1689 it says that the Quran is fully detailed. That it's a
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fully detailed explanation. But we just went to chapter 17:88 and the details of what it means to be like the Quran are missing. So it's there's this layer.
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Okay, we can't get the details of what it means to be like the Quran.
Speaker A
We have to deal with that. Then when I look at the Quran and it's saying that it's fully detailed, it's a fully detailed explanation on everything and yet I see a verse where details that are needed are missing,
Speaker A
it creates another problem. Can you can you reference what you're talking about with the fully detailed? What what what does that read like?
Speaker A
I got it right here for you. That's why I always try to bring this stuff up.
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That way we can really discuss what the verse says. Okay. There was certainly in their stories a lesson for those of understanding. Never was it a narration invented but a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of all things. That
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word is And uh a guidance and a mercy for people who believe. So it says it's a detailed explanation of all things. When I read the taps on it, it it gives all these examples of what kind of details were
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expected cuz if I'm being fair, I don't expect the Quran to teach me how to tie my shoe or work a microwave, you know, but for the things that the Quran is bringing, those details should exist.
Speaker A
And yet, just like in the example I gave, we're missing vital details. And that's just one example, okay? I mean it it's it's fair at the same time like you just said it can't give you every single detail that like
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you said tying your shoes and and all this stuff. So the details are I would say God being as almighty as he is details that will answer your questions.
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So if you are let's say um like earlier when someone had questions about you know what about women's rights and if you read the Quran and you're not it doesn't suffice you the rights of women in the Quran like those details will be
Speaker A
there you know for example and I wanted to bring this up earlier u means the utmost beauty that the eye will behold has nothing to do with women we are flawed if we want to read something from a misogynistic perspective and sometimes
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women can be the most misogynistic That's on us. That is on us. Yet, I want to address the fact that these are things that Allah is putting forth. So, he's putting forth you can't bring anything like it and we're missing
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detail. He's putting forth that it's fully detailed on everything and yet it's missing details. And then that creates another problem for us because when the Quran says it's fully detailed and then we're missing details, it's an inconsistency. And in chapter 4:82,
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Allah says, "If this book were from any other than Allah, it would be full of inconsistencies. We have these inconsistencies and Allah puts forth this challenge. If this book is for me, it won't have contradictions. It won't have
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inconsistencies." And yet, I was able to show two. Um, obviously this is not an answer that I can give in 30 seconds.
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Yes. But uh what I will say is if you're genuinely looking for for details on um actual topics that cause true dilemma in a in a human's mind like for example um some people will sit and argue was Mary
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actually a virgin and the Quran goes there and details proving her innocence and and her the the the holiness of the birth of Jesus. And when when you read that and it gives you answers to those details that you are looking for, those
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are the details of someone those those are the details that enter someone's heart who's actually seeking the knowledge and the truth. But then when you go and say, "But give me something like it. Give me something like it." As
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if there isn't, and I mean this with all due respect, as if there hasn't been uh how how far go is this 1600, 1700 years ago. We've had 1700 years to produce something like it. Where is it? But you
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can't say that hasn't been provided. That was the point of it all. Where is it? We could say Harry a Harry Potter book is or a book of poetry, a book of Arabic poetry is like the Quran. That's
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my issue. It's a vague challenge. And then we have no details. And then not having the details is a problem. And then having, you know, verses where we have something fully explained and not fully explained, it's a inconsistency.
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That's the chain I'm trying to show you. Allah is putting forth these challenges. They're not being met. And then I'm saying this is what he says proves that it's the word of God. What I will say to that in one sentence is to
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compare the book of the Quran to a book that is fiction like Harry Potter and say that that is enough proof that a book like the Quran can exist already tells you what you need to know. You're not approaching it like did God write
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this or did God himself not write this? Thank you. That is actually awful. Me too.
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Thank you. You're welcome. So, ladies, who would like to talk about that last conversation, how it went.
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Um, I had a couple points that I wanted to bring up while they were discussing how what makes the Quran special and that it cannot be reproduced. Um, there are certain miracles that were in the way that it was revealed. Um,
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and I don't have it with me, but you can fact check it. Um, there are certain um, words in the Quran that were revealed a certain number of times. Like, for example, male and female were both mentioned a certain
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amount number of times equal um, I think it's male and female chromosomes. Um, the number of chromosomes add up when you add up male and the number of times that male is mentioned, number of times female is mentioned. Um, day and night
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are mentioned a number of times. There's there's a there are words within the Quran that are mentioned the exact number of times that they appear in nature or in circumstance. Um, there there are many such examples of the
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Quran that make it from a linguistic standpoint perfect. Um, but I just wanted to add that in and and pardon me. I don't have the exact numbers and everything to back it up right now, but that was something
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that came to my mind when she was discussing that. Thank you for sharing that. Anyone else on this side? I'd want to add you.
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No, go ahead. Okay. Uh, I wanted to piggyback off of that. Um there are when Allah speaks about the bees in the Quran, he uses feminine um pronouns for the queen bee and the the hive where in science we
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just found out what's masculine, what's feminine with the bees. Um it there's so much we can go on and on. Days 365 times the word day is mentioned. um the the rivers and or the oceans as mentioned the universe um uh this is this one is
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my favorite um it's it's in s alaric um and alic is basically describing a knocking in the space it's like a knock and later uh Allah says what is that sound in the sky that knocks it's like a
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person coming to visit knocking And later science found out that there's this star called the pulser star and it literally makes a knocking boom boom boom boom. As an American Muslim, I mean God I feel like God has revealed things
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for our generation that's scientical to make us believe cuz we weren't alive in the time of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Our only proof is scient scientical evidence that matches up what's being discovered right now. So I just wanted to touch on that. Thank
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you for sharing that. On this side, any thoughts that you want to add to that last discussion?
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Just in response to what you guys were saying, I appreciate that there are things that you see in the Quran that illuminate certain aspects about life like science. But from what I understood, which I learned a lot, is
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that there are specific things in the Quran that it mentions and that it should be clear on, but it's vague. And then there are even things in the Quran I think surah 37 where it makes it very clear that there are clear verses and
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then there in the Quran and there also unclear verses. And that's ultimately what I think my sister was trying to convey is that there are things that should be present in the Quran that are not. Not that it doesn't make
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predictions about science. Those are two separate categories. So I just wanted to kind of like reemphasize that.
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I can just add to that also. So the for for me personally it doesn't matter how much a book reveals scientifically or etc that it's the fact that it it claims to be detailed and in surah 1211 when it
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talks about details it's actually in context of surah ysef so in surah ysef there's 98 verses of detail about the story of Joseph and Muhammad it says in verse three Muhammad basically couldn't read or write so everything's coming
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from Allah according to the Quran and he didn't know the story of Ysef before it right not in that amount of detail Now, I'll just take the story of Noah as an example. If my if I had a if I had a
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little kid, right? If I if my daughter started to tell me the the exact story of Noah word for word, this this many animals went on, it rained for this many days, I'd be like, whoa, what's going on? But if she says something like, oh,
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like there was a flood and there was a boat, I'd be like, that's not from God.
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But if she went word for word, how many animals, how many days, how many sons, I'd be like, whoa, whoa, where are you getting this from? Because you can't read. You can't write, right? And so that should be the criteria of
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Muhammad's prophethhood. he should be getting 98 verses of detail correct. Unfortunately, when we actually go and look at the story of Joseph in the Torah, there's 944 contradictions.
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Joseph's age to uh potterer's wife to which brother did what to who sold Joseph. It's all contradictory and not just different, literally irreconcilable contradictions. And so, no amount of scientific miracles is going to help me solve that issue.
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One thing Belle said that was just phenomenal to me was she said, "I don't want to misrepresent you." Today we saw a lot of misrepresentation from my sisters on the Muslim side. When it came to the Trinity discussion, it was
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completely misrepresented. When it came to the crucifixion, it was completely misrepresented. I see a problem of acting like there's all these problems when it comes to the Trinity. But we don't have the honest dealing of the problems when it comes to
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Tahed. I love that Chanasa brought arguments for Tahed and for Trinity. We have a problem when we look in chapter 33:56 and we see that Allah prays to someone. Who is Allah praying to? Who is Allah inheriting from? This is in the
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Quran. We will definitely talk about this some more because it's funny. You guys act like we have all these problems that you guys don't have. And you know, I would never bring you something that was in there that wasn't in there. So,
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we can definitely talk about it. And we're not supposed to be going back and forth. So just wrap, but I just wanted to wrap up this idea that we're supposed to come to the table representing each other properly.
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And I appreciate that on the Christian side that was done and it wasn't done on the other side in some cases. And I'm just challenge everyone properly represent your opponent so that we can have a fruitful, peaceful, lovely
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discussion like we've had so many times. Thank you. Thank you ladies for being here. Thank you for sharing and being honest and open uh with your lives and just with the things that you wanted to share. I appreciate you taking the time to come
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here and talk about things that are very sensitive for you um but being able to still have a conversation that was respectful. And thank you at home for watching. Please let us know in the comments any thoughts that you have on
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this discussion. If you felt like things were misrepresented, how you felt the ladies did on both sides. We would love to hear back from you. And until next time, bye. Thank you.
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[applause] Thank you.
Topics:ChristianityIslamProphet MuhammadBible prophecyJesus ChristTrinityWomen in IslamWomen in ChristianityQuranHadith
