Ep 05 ~ Stumbling Upon Awakening: a Conversation with Eshwar Segobind

A deep conversation on awakening and nondual awareness with Eshwar Segobind, exploring his rapid spiritual transformation and insights.

Key Takeaways

Awakening can occur rapidly and unexpectedly, even without prior spiritual seeking.
Nondual awareness involves abiding in a state of selfless presence and radical freedom.
Spiritual experiences are not necessarily linked to religious upbringing or intellectual study.
The process of awakening includes moving beyond conceptual mind and habitual thought patterns.
Integration of awakening is ongoing, even after the initial transformative experience.

What the video covers

The episode features a conversation between Christopher Wallis and Eshwar Segobind about awakening and nondual Shaiva Tantra.
Eshwar's awakening occurred rapidly within less than a year, following a period of alcohol addiction and recovery.
Eshwar was not raised with a strong spiritual background despite growing up Hindu in Guyana and moving to the US at age nine.
His awakening experience brought a state of radical freedom and nondual selfless awareness.
The discussion touches on the nature of thoughts, self, and the process of awakening beyond superficial understanding.
Eshwar emphasizes direct insight arising from awakeness rather than intellectual or religious conditioning.
The conversation explores how awakening can happen quickly and the importance of integrating the experience.
Eshwar remains grounded in everyday life as an electrician while embodying his awakened state.
He is open to sincere questions and can be contacted through his website sensewithoutmind.com.
The episode situates awakening within a broader context of neuroscience, psychology, and spirituality.

Chapters

Who is Eshwar Segobind and what is unique about his awakening?

Eshwar Segobind is an electrician from Philadelphia who experienced a rapid awakening within less than a year during recovery from alcohol addiction, bringing a fresh perspective to nondual awareness without prior spiritual background.

What tradition does this podcast focus on?

The podcast Tantra Illuminated explores the tradition of Nondual Shaiva Tantra, integrating philosophy, neuroscience, psychology, and spirituality.

How can listeners contact Eshwar Segobind for further discussion?

Eshwar is open to sincere questions and can be contacted through his website sensewithoutmind.com.

Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

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Tantra Illuminated with Dr. Christopher Wallis is a journey through the depths of the human experience, as viewed through the lens of the tradition called Nondual Shaiva Tantra. This multi-format podcast delves into the fascinating world of Classical Tantra and its intersections with philosophy, neuroscience, psychology, human development, and the broader world of spirituality. Today's episode is a conversation, and I'm speaking with Eshwar Segobind.

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neuroscience, psychology, human development, and the broader world of spirituality. Today's episode is a conversation, and I'm speaking with Eshwar Segobind.

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I'm particularly excited to share this interview with you all because Eshwar is so far almost unknown to the spiritual communities interested in nonduality and awakening and so on.

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Perhaps that will soon change as he's getting more and more known. But what's really wonderful about speaking with Eshwar is the freshness that he brings to conversations on this topic, because he wasn't steeped in any religious or even spiritual background

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Perhaps that will soon change as he's getting more and more known. But what's really wonderful about speaking with Eshwar is the freshness that he brings to conversations on this topic, because he wasn't steeped in any religious or even spiritual background

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He was and still is an electrician in the Philadelphia area who some years ago was dealing with an alcohol addiction that landed him in a recovery house.

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when his awakening occurred. It wasn't quite out of the blue, but close to it.

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And of course, by completion I don't mean to imply some static state, you know, or some state where learning more is not possible.

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He was and still is an electrician in the Philadelphia area who some years ago was dealing with an alcohol addiction that landed him in a recovery house.

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And that's when we consider the process of awakening to be complete, even if there's more to realize or more to integrate.

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And it was there that his awakening began. Now, this particular scenario is not so uncommon, but what is very uncommon is that from the moment his awakening process started to the time of its completion was less than a year.

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And it's it's really wonderful to speak with him because his state of radical freedom just oozes from every word, really.

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And of course, by completion I don't mean to imply some static state, you know, or some state where learning more is not possible.

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And we got on the phone and started talking. And it was wonderful. As you'll soon hear.

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No, no, no. Just that it is possible to reach a point where you are abiding in nondual selfless awareness most of the time or all of the time.

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He is open to engaging in conversations with those who have sincere questions and can be contacted at sensewithoutmind.com so I don't think any more introduction is really needed.

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And that's when we consider the process of awakening to be complete, even if there's more to realize or more to integrate.

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So without further ado, I happily bring you a conversation with Eshwar Segobind. Welcome Eshwar Thank you for having me.

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So my experience of Eshwar is he is indeed abiding in awakeness, in nondual awareness and selflessness.

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with the wisdom of somebody who, you know, has been in this whole Awakening scene for a long, long, long time.

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And it's really wonderful to speak with him because his state of radical freedom just oozes from every word, really.

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and also has happened very quickly. This is unusual in a way. And of course, it can happen quickly for anyone.

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And I have no idea how I got connected with him. It's a mystery. Somehow it just happened.

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And your whole process happened in a little less than a year, I believe. So I want to ask you about that.

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And we got on the phone and started talking. And it was wonderful, as you'll soon hear.

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Did you have something different happening back when you were a kid, or did you just have a normal childhood? I guess you grew up in in the Caribbean?

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So I'll read just a tiny bit from his bio. Eshwar communicates his journey with stark clarity, discussing how he came to understand the truth as he perceives it now.

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But which island? In Guyana in South America. It's the northern tip of South America.

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He is open to engaging in conversations with those who have sincere questions and can be contacted at sensewithoutmind.com. So I don't think any more introduction is really needed.

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But growing up there, we never knew the difference because we didn't have anything else to kind of gauge that against, but never had any real spiritual experiences or thought anything was different.

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The conversation speaks for itself, and to get too much into the bio of someone who's free of self would be ironic, to say the least.

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No, to answer your question directly. Yeah, that's great. And when even when you were an adult, you weren't a spiritual seeker, you weren't reading all the self-help books, anything like that, right?

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So without further ado, I happily bring you a conversation with Eshwar Segobind. Welcome, Eshwar.

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because everything that was being said was in Hindi. They had pujas and stuff, but I really didn't know what those things were about or what was really going on in that space.

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Thank you for having me.

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It's very surface, see with that stuff. And I never really got into what those things were pointing to or what they really meant.

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Yeah, it's great to have you here. I'm excited to talk with you. I just discovered you, and I listened to an interview you did a while back, and I was impressed, you know, because in my perception in that interview, you were speaking

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So that's a lot that happened in that short period of time. But what led up to all of it was throughout my adult life, I would say in my early twenties, I started to to really get into working and

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with the wisdom of somebody who, you know, has been in this whole awakening scene for a long, long, long time.

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when I was in my late twenties, early thirties. And what led to to all of this was I found myself drinking and when I would drink it wasn't this normal happy person that I used to be.

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But you haven't, so your insights were arising direct from awakeness, for lack of a better word, because, you know, it's just—I just was delighted, really, to hear this clarity of insight from someone whose awakening is relatively recent

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And I had found myself. I was I had built like this shop for for work where I was storing all of my equipment and material.

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and also has happened very quickly. This is unusual in a way. And of course, it can happen quickly for anyone.

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And this kind of lifestyle kind of led to a lot of altercation between my wife and myself to the point where everything came, came to a head and I didn't know at the time, but she said that I needed to go and get help

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But usually people find ways to resist the process of waking up so effectively that they manage to drag it out for quite a while.

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And our kids were pretty young at the time. One was only a few months old.

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And your whole process happened in a little less than a year, I believe. So I want to ask you about that.

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it could be aimed towards family and our kids. But after seeing the way that you're behaving, she's like, I had no doubt in my mind that that can that can occur here.

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But first, I want to go back and ask: did you have any sorts of what we might call spiritual experiences as a kid?

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I didn't know what this stuff was about, but I just needed to I needed to get help.

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Did you have something different happening back when you were a kid, or did you just have a normal childhood? I guess you grew up in the Caribbean?

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I didn't get to before I went to the facility. And I told them, Hey, instead of coming on Friday, I'll be up there on Tuesday.

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Yeah, I grew up in the Caribbean. We came to the States when I was right around nine years old.

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You're not serious about coming. But I really had a project to finish. So once I finished the project, it didn't stop me from going out and drinking.

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But which island?

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It was like at that time it was like $182, $172 Uber ride up. And when I got there, I was still so pretty wasted in that in that place.

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In Guyana in South America. It's the northern tip of South America.

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Let's see what this is all about. And in the facility itself is where a lot of stuff shifted.

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Okay. Okay. Yeah. So nothing really spectacular with childhood. All the stuff over there was Guyanese, more of a third world country than it is a first world country.

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In there one of the therapists was an anger management therapist and we're going through some some of the stuff that he was saying and and what he was saying, I started to see how I was forming my own resentments.

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But growing up there, we never knew the difference because we didn't have anything else to kind of gauge that against, but never had any real spiritual experiences or thought anything was different.

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And all the while they didn't know any of this was going on. And when I saw that process, how it was happening within myself, it dawned on me that if I'm doing it, I could just I could just stop.

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When I was a kid growing up, even coming here and being in the States, nothing really stuck out in that way.

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And while I was in that facility, the the only thing that I really knew about spirituality or in Hinduism was the the Oṃ (ॐ), the symbol itself.

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No, to answer your question directly.

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So I used to take the sand up and drawn an Oṃ. And there was just this one part of the Oṃ that kind of captivated my, my attention.

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Yeah, that's great. And even when you were an adult, you weren't a spiritual seeker, you weren't reading all the self-help books, anything like that, right?

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Everything just kind of like stopped. And that was like my primary focus in that facility.

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Nope, nope. Never, never got into any of it. The only thing spiritual that we knew growing up, we were—we grew up Hindu and we would sit at the altar and pray every Sunday, but never really knew what was being said

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And it didn't matter how much money I made, it was never enough. And that was my life.

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because everything that was being said was in Hindi. They had pujas and stuff, but I really didn't know what those things were about or what was really going on in that space.

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All of that just got disconnected. When that disk when that got disconnected, there was just something that was here that I didn't I didn't know how to be or operated in that space, but I was completely open to whatever was going to come into this space

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So that was just kind of—we saw, we observed, but we really didn't know.

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It was it was pretty crazy and wild prior to that. And now I got this this space that I didn't know what it was and nothing I could say or do in this space came from how things were before.

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It was very surface, see, with that stuff. And I never really got into what those things were pointing to or what they really meant.

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That's beautiful. Yeah. I'm glad you're giving the more detailed version here, because this is this is really amazing.

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Interesting. Yeah, I want to circle back to that. But first, take us through, you know, the brief version, I guess, of what happened to you that year, 2017, when the awakening happened.

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Right? Right. And when you were focusing on the Oṃ, that was it the dot and the crescent part of the ॐ that was captivating you?

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So that's a lot that happened in that short period of time. But what led up to all of it was throughout my adult life, I would say in my early twenties, I started to really get into working and

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That that dot and that crescent correspond to the third eye and you were feeling that without even knowing that.

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getting a business going. But I also started to drink around that time. I was like my late teens, I would say 18, 19, and then that kind of carried on into my twenties and it kind of progressed as I got a little older

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That's what it meant. Yeah totally. Yeah. That's amazing. And so, so then did you get any, any meditation instruction there or did it all develop on its own?

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when I was in my late twenties, early thirties. And what led to all of this was I found myself drinking, and when I would drink it wasn't this normal happy person that I used to be.

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kind of allowing your attention, body scanning and then allowing whatever tensions there to kind of relaxed.

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It just started to become—I started to become just angry, and it just transmuted to everything around me with my friends, with my family.

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Everything else came after I left the treatment facility and I opted to stay at a recovery house in Lancaster up until that's where where all of this stuff took place.

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And I had found myself—I had built like this shop for work where I was storing all of my equipment and material.

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So there were three three or four shifts that occurred there that were significant. I would say the first one, everything started to become intuitive when I was at the recovery house.

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And I found myself in there instead of working, just drinking like 8:00 in the morning.

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that we have that surrounding this this identity and the ego itself. So one part of step work is you go through the defects of character, you write them down, you see what part of the character is affected, whether it's fear or whatever it is.

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And this kind of lifestyle kind of led to a lot of altercation between my wife and myself to the point where everything came, came to a head and I didn't know at the time, but she said that I needed to go and get help

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And if it's a character, isn't it something made up? And when that kind of kind of dawned on me, I started to see the different characters that was within me.

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because there was just all of this anger, especially when I'm drinking, led to a lot of destructive behaviors inside the household where it's enough to scare her.

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or when I'm hanging out with my friends, they each one of these personalities or identities had different modes that they operated on and they had different guidelines that they follow.

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And our kids were pretty young at the time. One was only a few months old.

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So Eshwar was like my formal name. Lous was a name that that when I hang out with all of my buddies, that's what they called me.

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The other one was about a year and a half old. And so I would like to say that I went to get help, but it was she said something needs to change because I never thought you would be this destructive, especially

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So when I saw that, I was like, I'm not here fix the character Like each character had its own script.

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it could be aimed towards family and our kids. But after seeing the way that you're behaving, she's like, I had no doubt in my mind that that can, that can occur here.

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And each of the characters or branches. If I cut off a branch by fixing the defects of the branch, then the branch grows back.

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So the next day I reached out to a treatment facility which was in Lancaster County and told them I was, you know, I was looking to get help.

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So I went to uproot the entire tree. When I uprooted the entire tree, it it didn't get rid of identity itself altogether.

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I didn't know what this stuff was about, but I just needed to—I needed to get help.

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So there were like subtle practices that came up. So I was listening to, I think at that time was Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now.

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And that's what got me into that facility. When I was up there, when I went into that place, I had a job I had to finish.

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I would walk up the stairs and as I was walking up the stairs, I had my slippers on. I would take one step up, take my slippers off, put the slippers on the step below, take another step up, go back, step into the slippers, bring them up.

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I didn't get to before I went to the facility. And I told them, "Hey, instead of coming on Friday, I'll be up there on Tuesday."

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I was looking at my hands and it was like I was seeing them for the first time.

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And they're telling me, "You're, you're, you're just bullshitting me. We hear this stuff all of the—"

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The veil kind of lifted in that way and the, the now the, the here and now just opened up what seemed to be like a sliver in time became, you know, the ever present moment itself.

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The the second shift that that occurred in that place was I was this was more meditative.

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Osho has I think is 112 steps of Shiva. There are 112 meditations that you can you can do.

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You cycle through each one. And if you feel inclined, like one is doing something for you, you stick with that one.

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For mine. I think it was like number five or six or something like that.

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But when I want where light is shining up from the base of your body, right?

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Right. It travels up, it goes, it coalesces at the top, top of your head and then it showers down on you and Yeah and when it did that it it felt like a bolt of lightning shot up from the earth

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through my feet, through my body, through the top of my skull. And it literally felt like I know nothing of Shiva, but like God touched me in my, my brain.

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And I, like, shook. I walked into the recovery house and I just kind of like shook for about 40 minutes, 40, 45 minutes.

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And then everything stopped. No conception, No, no, anything. I just I was in a room looking at a wall, and it seemed to me like 5 minutes.

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But one of the guys said, you've been there for like 45 minutes just looking at the wall.

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And it was like it felt almost like, like a reset occurred and that just kind of like blew everything open.

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I mean, with that, all of the intuitions of what to do and how to see mind and how to disengage mind from the sense perceptions and, you know, like all of those nuance things started to shine through of what I needed to do intuitively.

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And then as I was listening to spiritual teachers at that time on YouTube channels, these were the things that they were talking about and I was like, Well, I already know what I need to do, so let me just focus on that and put those things aside.

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So that's that's what I started to do. So this is exactly what in the tradition I study is called śaktipāt, this Awakening that that has an energetic component, right?

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Where the like you felt the energy surging up, as you said, to the crown of your head.

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And as if you've been, you know, graced by Shiva, like we don't need to, of course, reify that into some literal idea, but it's but it's like that.

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And so that's śaktipāt and it has exactly the effect that you described, which is then an intuitive sense of how to move through this process dawns in, in the in the wake of that experience because of course it's not about the experience per se,

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but the intuitive capacity that it makes available to you subsequently. Right? Right. It wasn't it wasn't about to go and try to replicate the experience again, but it's to to sit in that open space and allowed intuition to come up of what it is that needs to be done.

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So one of the things that that came very early on was I was driving and driving down the road and I drive a lot for work.

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And then there was this 18 wheeler and behind a 18 wheeler it had a sign on the the trailer itself, I think it's at Lehigh Valley Farms or something like that and something popped up to say read that

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right there, not inside here. And I was like, How do I do that? Then as something was like, Relax your vision into your peripheral vision.

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And when I did that, it disengaged this process of knowing or wanting to know whatever attention was focused in on.

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So it just kind of became like scenic. And then Lehigh Valley Farms isn't something that said inside of my head, it's exactly where it's red on that truck or whatever we call it.

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That's exactly where it is. It's not an inside outside process. Yeah. In other words, you don't need to mirror it in a mind.

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You don't need to have a thought mirror of the words. You can even comprehend the words in a weird way, non-verbally without having a thought mirror of it that you experience as being in your head.

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Is that. Is that kind of what you mean? Correct, it was without the inner dialog.

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And as that insight matured, because one can get caught up in thinking that they need to stop thoughts.

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Was that was the thing. Thoughts needed didn't need to be stopped. It was just to see this process for for what it is and how it's occurring and how convention is created through the merging of whatever experience is through that descriptor into inner dialog,

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how we create this inner world within our minds that we we interact with instead of seeing things for what they were, neither one of those processes needed to be stopped.

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It just needed to be seen for exactly what it is. So it just brought about this calm because it disengaged, this this hold on to this process, this thing that we we kind of latch on to for comfort, thinking that because we think we know

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when the process is nothing like we could ever imagine. It's simpler. Yeah. Just we just We think we know because we attach to a mental representation of experience and then sort of smugly rest on that when in fact we don't know anything.

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But man, that was the the epitome of all of this was the first thing that had to be to be recognized for me was, you know, I know that I don't know anything whatsoever and anything I know is or I could say that I know is made up

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and it comes and it shifts in so many different ways. Like when I realized there was it was all all language is made up.

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So my thinking itself was made up. It was just like subtle things like that.

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Not to say that, you know, these things don't have meaning, but outside of the meaning that anyone could ever place on it.

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There is no there's no meaning to it, you know, and it can seem as though it's contradicting.

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But until the experience occurred, a shifts in perception starts to to occur, then all of that makes sense.

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Yeah, it's like thoughts seem to have meaning because they reference other thoughts. And if you're staying in the mind world, then it all seems to have meaning.

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But it's all self-referential and it's and it's not touching into reality itself, which is not, you know, it's not any of our thoughts about it.

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And that's the amazing thing is that like ever ever most people manage to just live in this mind world and think they're living in the world when they've never even been in the world, at least not since they were a tiny little kid.

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Would you agree with that? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Before I forget, I just want to mention one one thing.

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We don't need to go into it, but it's just really cool that because you discovered these 112 practices or pointers and and attributed them to to Osho and in fact those 112 come from a tantric scripture the Vijñāna-bhairava-tantra that I've studied for many, many years

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and have translated from the original Sanskrit myself. And it's one of the most important scriptures in the lineage that that I study and practice.

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And Osho gave a kind of popularized version of it. But but even from that, you know, sort of what I would call watered down popularized version the point or still worked for you.

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And that's that's just a really cool thing to note. And it's, you know, it's just another interesting connection because I just love that scripture.

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I'll send you my translation of it, you know, direct from the original Sanskrit. You might find it interesting, even though you don't need any of those practices at this point.

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That's awesome. Yeah, I'd like to to actually see exactly what it was, because even in in this conversation, like, we're always learning and I'm learning just that it explain the the Oṃ itself, the way you described it and what all of that was.

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I didn't know. It wasn't until you just said it. Yeah. You know, sitting and focusing on and it was exactly that.

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It was the, the crescent and the dot. Whatever I drew out whenever I drew out the ॐ, that was the part of the Oṃ that just kind of focused.

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I focused then on and then there was that pressure to center my forehead. I was like, But I didn't know what any of that was, but I was going along with all of it.

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Yeah, but yeah, I'd be, it'd be interesting to read a read the actual translation of it.

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Cool. Yeah. And looking back on, you know, your experience with Hinduism too, just to touch on that for, for a moment.

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Like, of course Hinduism is a, it's a culture and it's a religion. And religions have just like this huge mass of rituals and teachings and practices and ideas and thoughts and more thoughts.

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And of course, when it comes to this actual Awakening process, a lot of that is, is noise.

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A lot of that is could could confuse someone or whatever religion it is. It could confuse them with sort of too much detail and too many cultural elements that aren't directly relevant to the Awakening process.

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But having said that, you know, do you see that any kind of like little glimmers of of of of truth or of something in that tradition you were exposed to as a young person?

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Looking back on it from the awake perspective. For myself I would say I mean, there were all gateways and doorways into it because if, if, if anything, I gain from the entire tradition itself at that time, even kind of

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going through it was the ability to recognize Oṃ itself. And that was the thing that was prominent in the beginning of the Awakening process.

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That was the only thing I could equate to anything that would be spiritual or meditative was just that thing.

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So in that respect, yeah, it was it was supremely important to to even touch into that because even though all we knew was the surface of it, the truth, the depths of these things are, are within the teachings themselves.

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It's up to us when we start the process and we go through the process to to kind of get past the superficial and really get into the the depths of this.

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Because in the you and I don't like quote, spiritual texts and all of that stuff because I don't know all of it, but like the key itself is there was like one sentence if you understood that sentence, you didn't need to read the thing, you didn't need to read the entire book itself.

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And it's it's when you come to understand the nature of, of of self and identity and structures and all of this stuff.

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Once you see through that, you know, there is and there's a much further to to go through in the way of the the text themself not to say that those things aren't important.

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They are they absolutely are. But all of that lies within us. Yeah absolutely. Yeah.

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So if we if we come back to your Awakening process, then after this śaktipāt that happened from that point to and then then you started seeing or rather you, you saw on an even deeper level the constructedness of all concepts,

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and they started ceasing to mediate experience for you, meaning to say you started seeing the difference between reality and our thoughts about reality in a clear way.

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You saw the difference between what is and interpretation of what is, and that got clearer and clearer. Am I characterizing it correctly?

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Yes. Yeah, there is a an error between the the reflected versus what what can't be reflected the the means, the descriptor of what's what's meaning to be described versus what can be described because it isn't one in the same one is pointing to look instead of us

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believing the point, we should go and look and see what's being pointed to. So it removes the conflict between the two because the the concept green wall or a green tree is pointing us to go look at what was being referred to as a green tree.

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And when we we get to the the pointer when we're in front of the tree we relaxed that concept tree or green tree.

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And then the fullness of the the experience that that could not be described is there for us.

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And it's it's the words fail to describe what's really there when we sit with our sense perception bare and open and just the full, vivid aliveness of this thing that we're calling Green Tree is readily available to all of us.

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If we could relax the concept and the belief of the internal construct that we have inside of our head, when I say green tree versus when it's actually in front of you.

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Yeah exactly. It's the depth that it plays out, but it's it's available for everyone.

Speaker A

It's not anywhere special. Yeah exactly. Yeah. Beautifully said. And, and of course, it's not even a thing, you know, like the tree when you're experiencing it without, concept or interpretation, it's not even a thing in itself, right?

Speaker A

Because it's, it's, it's an expression of its total environment. So you don't, you can't separate it out.

Speaker A

The only the conceptual mind does that. Right. And so just to summarize thoughts, we could say that there are two kinds some thoughts, just reference other thoughts and so they lead you in a in a loop of, of thoughts that doesn't go anywhere.

Speaker A

And some thoughts, reference or point to actual experience, like your example of green tree, and those are the ones that are more useful on spiritual path, you know, whether it's a, whether it's a thought directing you to sense experience or whether it's

Speaker A

a thought prompting an inquiry like, you know, the thought what, what is me, what am I, you know, what is that like.

Speaker A

So and it's good to distinguish I think thoughts that point to other thoughts from thoughts that point you beyond thought right.

Speaker A

Yeah there's are thoughts that are pointing to direct experience. So you know we go back to the same green tree thing.

Speaker A

If I say a green tree and you have a concept inside of your mind of green tree then and you're looking outwards and that's nowhere to be found.

Speaker A

That's That's a thought referencing a thought. But if it's in front of you and in your direct experience, you can you can actually see the process for how it's happening without really having a conflict with thought.

Speaker A

Because if there's a green tree in front of you and the thought references that you can quickly look and see, well, if thought says green tree, does it add to my experience and if it doesn't say green tree, does it take away from my experience?

Speaker A

Does it diminish my experience? And you relax both of those and the fullness of experiences it's present in aware if you you go with the the thought referencing thought the content of a thought and a story that it tells.

Speaker A

That's generally what pulls us away. Like, there's a green tree here, I don't like it.

Speaker A

Or one like this fell on me like 30 years ago. That's, you know, that's stories that's, that's a content about that thought and it's not direct experience.

Speaker A

Yeah yeah yeah exactly. So take us through how this sort of completed itself for you and and to clarify, of course, there's always more to learn and there's always more insights possible, but there is also something like a completion

Speaker A

of the Awakening process, which some people might characterize as the definitive falling away of separate self.

Speaker A

And would you characterize it that way or how would you and how did that what was it like to to transit through that, the completion of the process?

Speaker A

So there's two folds to that. The initial for me was going through to this process after I left the recovery house and I came back, I came back home, which is around August of that same year.

Speaker A

I wanted get into really what's what's actually here because I don't have the the conceptual overlay anymore sort of the thoughts referencing and all of that stop.

Speaker A

So not that the thoughts stop is that I didn't engage with them on that level.

Speaker A

So whether they they're going on or they're not going on really was irrelevant because I wasn't hooked into them anymore.

Speaker A

So I didn't have a way of, of constructing a self in the way I'm moving about in day to day life.

Speaker A

But there was still something here that that knew itself. So and I didn't know what that was.

Speaker A

So the only way I could go back was inside of my mind through memory and as I started to remember myself in different periods of my life.

Speaker A

So at this time I was in my thirties. It was like important milestones throughout my life was where the memories went to.

Speaker A

So one was 24, which was when I moved from New York to Pennsylvania, the other one, and I was like 17ish transitioning from high school to adulthood.

Speaker A

The other one was around 9ish when we came to this country and I got to a memory when I was about four years old, and the memory itself wasn't all that important.

Speaker A

So I was just laying on the bed and I was like, You know what?

Speaker A

I don't know what what any of this spirituality stuff is. I don't know what anybody else is talking about.

Speaker A

I can't conceive this thing that's me outside of me, so we leave the external, let's go inside.

Speaker A

So I go to that memory and it was was four and I was was like, well, if I'm four something must be here before I'm for because, you know, I'm four years old and my mind just kind of I stayed there with that.

Speaker A

I was focusing on my breath and, you know, I had that tension in the forehead that that space and my mind cannot conceive of a time outside of all of the things that it created so that prior to it it couldn't conceive.

Speaker A

So inside of that, this image of myself as a four year old came up and it was me, this adult looking at this four year old and a four year old, it was like my face, the little kids face, which was my face at that age, turned

Speaker A

and as it turned, the back of it was hollow, empty. It was like a mask.

Speaker A

And the minute that was seen, it felt like a rubber band was was being pulled.

Speaker A

All right. And it had this tension and the rubber band just cut and my entire the entire mind just unraveled.

Speaker A

And it went from that to sensation to to just nothing. And it showed exactly how this thing comes about.

Speaker A

So it was there's a space when I say nothing, it isn't. There's just it's referencing something that just can't be described.

Speaker A

And it isn't it isn't a conceptual thing. And then there is this sense, then a sense of then a sense of me, then the entire manifestation itself.

Speaker A

And in the manifestation itself, it isn't unified. They're all the sense perceptions on woven it was experiencing.

Speaker A

It was experience experiencing experience, not unified, not this, this one thing that's here that's experiencing all of this stuff that's going on.

Speaker A

And it kind of coalesced back down and here here I was again. And immediately after seeing that, it was like the need to to do to go and work, to achieve, to gain, to do this, to do that, all of that just just fell away.

Speaker A

All of that stuff just let go. The need to grasp and hold on to things doesn't mean that, you know, I can't plan for stuff, but there is no holding on to the outcomes of things and you know, there is this very clear sense that

Speaker A

this here and now, this all that there is there wasn't anything in the past that was creating this and there isn't anything in the future to to really go and get after this is all that there is.

Speaker A

And it's shifted the way I, I can conceive of time. There was no more past.

Speaker A

There was no more future. This is it. This is all that there ever was without really making too much of of here and now.

Speaker A

And you know, I saw how through the sense perception how to woven together and this this sense of me arises and how to to sit and kind of deconstruct that.

Speaker A

So it got deconstructed on the level of mind of an internal world where it was like almost I got to boot out of that space.

Speaker A

I got kicked out of that space, and now I'm square here. And this is where through the sense perception, the remainder of if there's a a sense of that's here that it gets deconstructed and that's back through the sense perceptions again.

Speaker A

Yeah. And even though the the conception of time falls away that you still perceived a sequentiality in terms of there's just this no-thingness and then something like a self or an idea of self arises within it.

Speaker A

And then that has a kind of gravitational attraction to certain thoughts and it builds up into something like an ego and then then that seen through, there's this sequential reality which is mysterious because there's only actually now, but still that sequential reality is, is perceived

Speaker A

in terms of how this happens. Would you say what would you say about that, if anything?

Speaker A

It showed exactly how the feeling that I've got from that was this entire thing is a is a projection.

Speaker A

It's a it's something that I'm that I'm making up, but it's not me that's making it up.

Speaker A

It's just projected outwards. And I'm holding on to two things that really can't be held on to.

Speaker A

It can appear in that in that linear sense, that's the best way I can describe it, where it would make sense.

Speaker A

But there's, there's a space where none of that stuff is unified. None of the perceptions themselves are unified and experiences.

Speaker A

This just so it's like infinite experience. And when you say they're not unified, you mean they're not unified by itself.

Speaker A

Right. The idea of of me. Because there's also no division in experience. Like if you say it's unified, then that's like a mental construct of oneness.

Speaker A

I'm experiencing all this. But it's also true, isn't it, to say that there's no divisions at all.

Speaker A

Right, So this is where it gets tricky to speak about it in words. That's exactly it There.

Speaker A

There isn't anything that's divided and there isn't anything that unites with everything. So there isn't one that becomes one with everything.

Speaker A

Right? The error in the perception is the idea of division, and we discover what's there once we we stop doing that.

Speaker A

But the language itself is it's just so it's dualistic in that sense, as we always have to take a reference point to try and convey an idea.

Speaker A

So you can it can get confusing just by trying to describe it. So most of it is always pointed to and when the experience occurs or someone discovers that you see that there is no one that discovers it.

Speaker A

Yeah exactly. So this is a good point, because when people have the experience, I am one with everything.

Speaker A

That's not the realization we're talking about. That's an experience. It's it's as valid as any other experience, but it's, it's not realization if it's I am one with everything.

Speaker A

Right. Yeah. Now, I have a question for you, though, because here's something really mysterious, right?

Speaker A

Because the self is really just a thought. It's a it's a persistent and powerful thought of me.

Speaker A

It's a self-concept that then, you know, can aggregate furthermore specific self concepts. And there's there's nothing else to it.

Speaker A

And yet when someone is on the verge of this realization of of of the dissolution of separate self and realizing that what you are is not a self, there can be this immense struggle or resistance as if the self is fighting its own dissolution.

Speaker A

And so the question I would pose is how can the self be fighting own dissolution when it isn't even a thing?

Speaker A

It's not even an entity, it's it's just a thought, Right. That's the that's the power of the delusion itself that we, we kind of place ourself under and, you know, it formed in a few different ways.

Speaker A

I mean we see it in language and it's always when we're talking and then the reflectiveness of thinking gives the appearance there's a dialog of to a separation between the thought of me versus all the other thoughts.

Speaker A

And that gives rise to this conflict within of this thing that's here. And it is it is a powerful delusion in itself.

Speaker A

It's a there's not much I can really say about that. All I know is it's exactly what I've come to, to understand by seeing through it that there's a way to see through it and it's not it's not exactly what we we think it is.

Speaker A

So it's like the delusion is not inert. It has it has an energy like the delusion resists its own dissolution.

Speaker A

And for either for a short time or a long time, But then once it dissolves, it's it's seen, ironically, that it that it never was a thing.

Speaker A

It was only just a like a profoundly deep seated misunderstanding. Right. Would you agree with that?

Speaker A

That's exactly how felt when the experience occurred within when it thought when it all unraveled, it was exactly that.

Speaker A

It was all it was all my own creation except it was it was a falsified thing that thought that it created all of this.

Speaker A

And it never it was never a thing to begin with, ever Yeah. And even though what we are cannot be said in words, there are some pointers that are better, better than others.

Speaker A

I like quiet presence. What what pointers would you use to try to describe the indescribable?

Speaker A

That is to say, what you and I really are This. But not this as a a object, this and this that usually comes to the radiant presence because it's it's it can be felt it's it's here you know

Speaker A

presence is is probably the the closest concept I think I could I could use this would point back to always here and now and the present is the presence itself is it's here it's when we sit and we're in that that quietness

Speaker A

it's felt, you know, I think your descriptors are very, very good and that that that regards.

Speaker A

And the presence that's here suffuses is the totality, right. There's no separation of like observer-observed experience or experienced the presence that's here just suffuses the totality and the totality of experience is its expression.

Speaker A

I guess we could say Yeah there is there's a lot of things we could try to say, but none of it ever, ever even comes close to to describe.

Speaker A

We always say, you know, go look and see. And once it's seen, then it's understood.

Speaker A

And, you know, even that saying too much because that can be misinterpreted and can confuse as well, too.

Speaker A

So it's it's the totality of the the entire experience of what's occurring right now is the which is all encompassing and not excluding.

Speaker A

You know, that's that's the best the best I can say. Yeah. There's this phrase in, in the nondual tantric tradition that I study pūrṇāham-vimarśa which means the awareness that the true I is all encompassing, the awareness that you're that your real nature, what you really are,

Speaker A

is, is all encompassing and completely full and excludes nothing. Does that resonate with you?

Speaker A

To to some degree. I know that we speak of The true nature stuff I usually don't really get into because it can give something to kind of grab on to and make some make something of.

Speaker A

So it's always go and look and see and and find out and discover and then we can we can have a discussion afterwards.

Speaker A

Yeah. That's an interesting tension in the Indian tradition between the, the Buddhist strategy and the strategies that we find in nondual Hindu tradition.

Speaker A

Because in Buddhism, which you're sort of intuitively expressing, they want to be very careful to give you nothing to grab on to, whereas in the Hindu tradition they'll talk about true self or true nature and they'll try to keep pointing

Speaker A

and saying, it's but it's not anything you can conceptualize. It's not your mind, it's not your ego.

Speaker A

It's not, it's not, it's not any of that. It's, it's beyond all of that.

Speaker A

But still, there's that potential problem of, of, you know, giving giving people something to grab onto.

Speaker A

But on the other side, you could make a critique of the of the Buddhist perspective because when they negate, you know, it can form in the mind of the practitioner a concept of emptiness or emptiness is what's real.

Speaker A

And then they're attaching the concept of emptiness rather than seeing and experiencing what it's meant to to point towards.

Speaker A

Right? It's this like it's the fullness of experience without without a view, without an attachment to to it being a specific view.

Speaker A

And even saying that will will create a view. So it's experiential with this. And then we we kind of go from there.

Speaker A

I don't get into too much of the the traditional stuff because that's not how this understanding came.

Speaker A

You know, came to me some some of my friends who have gone through this, particularly my brother, he you know, he went through this stuff when he was younger.

Speaker A

He got in a car accident like around 18, 19, and he was in traction for like nine months.

Speaker A

And while he was in, that is how he woke up. And he was he is definitely from like a traditional Hindu background where, you know, you sit and meditate and, you know, he went to the ashram and stuff

Speaker A

and he helped me through some of this this process early on. And then I started to understand the depths of his understanding as he went through this, because even though he came from from the Hindu background and and sitting and meditating,

Speaker A

he would never, ever give me a definitive answer. He always said and he didn't come from a Buddhist background.

Speaker A

He's like, you don't need to go and sit and meditate inside of a cave.

Speaker A

You don't need to go and sit in the jungle to to do this stuff.

Speaker A

You could do it inside of your house, in your room. And that was it.

Speaker A

But he would never give me any definitive of what this was, what it was like.

Speaker A

He he would just say, continue on. That's interesting. So his Awakening might have sort of planted a seed for you, even though you you might not have been aware of it at the time.

Speaker A

Oh yeah, I mean, he, he was telling me about some of this stuff for, for a long, long time.

Speaker A

You know, look, look at this. You should you should get into this. You should.

Speaker A

But I just never paid him any any mind. I was just busy with, you know, whatever it is that was going on.

Speaker A

I'm sure he some seeds. And that's what came through because when I was in the recovery house, the only person that I really could when these things started to to come up, I reached out to him, and I was asking him

Speaker A

and he just, he’s like he would just you know, give me the “mm’hmm” And my brother's one year older than me.

Speaker A

And he would just, that was it. That's all he would say. He's like, Yeah, continue on, Keep it going.

Speaker A

And that was it. He he never said it. Later on, after some of the realizations occurred and hit and him and I started really talking, then he, he really started to, to open up and he talked about the Shiv Purān and how all of that stuff

Speaker A

is related to this, here, now. It wasn't about, you know, these they're fantastic stories that’s being told, but they're always relegated to the individual and their day to day life to see through this thing that they're calling themselves and really experience what's really here.

Speaker A

Yeah. So yeah. So another mystery we could just take a moment to look at is this question of why does someone wake up with, you know, in just a few months of really giving themselves to this process and why for someone else,

Speaker A

even though they're they're really into it and they they they try hard but it but years and years and years go by and they're still, you know, enmeshed in their concepts of spirituality and the Awakening hasn't happened yet.

Speaker A

I mean, my my hypothesis is that people wake up when they're ready and that even if they think they want to, on one level, on another, perhaps deeper level, they don't yet, you know, they're not they're not quite ready.

Speaker A

They don't really want to they want more time playing their character. They're invested in the character.

Speaker A

They want to see more of how this character turns out. And then at some point, if they're just done with it, you know, then the Awakening can happen.

Speaker A

That's that's sort of my my little hypothesis. What do you think about this mysterious question?

Speaker A

There are two aspects to it that I have encountered. One aspect is for people who have been at it for a long time and they study the spiritual text or they've they've kind of followed like all these different teachers and teachings and and all of this stuff

Speaker A

that they build up such a a concept of what this is supposed to look like that they're chasing their idea of what they think it's supposed to be, and they're overlooking the simplicity of their own direct experience.

Speaker A

And they never want to accept that it's, it can be this simple. And that in itself has a a powerful draw.

Speaker A

And some people use it as a means to, to polish, to self, to for the self, the self-help.

Speaker A

You know, it's exactly like you describe. They're not they're not really ready. They may think that they want it, but they're not really ready to to take that final step or to to really go at this in that way.

Speaker A

And it requires a type of openness with this because this kind of I didn't have a conception of it.

Speaker A

So it snuck up on me because I didn't know what I was looking for and I didn't even know I was looking for something.

Speaker A

So who wanted it all? It was just being that open. So when this all happened, it was like, oh What?

Speaker A

What is, what is this? You know, a year a year ago, this was not even on my radar or even the mode of thinking or experiencing.

Speaker A

I was so mind identified and so worldly attached to the to the point where that couldn't go on anymore because it created so much misery and suffering.

Speaker A

And then, you know, a few months down the road, it completely shifted where none of that mattered in the way that it did before, where I had so much invested, so much of my being invested into it, that that's where the for me,

Speaker A

my ego was drawing value from and validation from was everything that could be gained from the world and how that was being perceived and then reinforced by the world, rewarding me for being that way.

Speaker A

Not to say that any of those things were responsible for the latter, but that's how it was being perceived at that time.

Speaker A

And then to shift from that to this, where none of that matters, does it has a use and a function, sure. But does it have the the identity structure, the latching on to it?

Speaker A

You know, it's like, but that snuck up on me. Now, if I'm going intentionally looking for myself, I think Alan Watts describes that that best.

Speaker A

It's like the police chasing a thief into a house and then, you know, ringing the bell as they're they're running up looking for it.

Speaker A

You know, you just know, you know, when you're fooling yourself, you know? So it's one of these things where, you know, when surrender comes up, the only thing you could do is go with it.

Speaker A

That's that. That is surrender, you know, that's how that's how it was with me.

Speaker A

I didn't know and I didn't know what was on the other side. So let let me go and see and, you know, some fear comes up with that stuff.

Speaker A

But it was more intuitive for me to relax and go and find out because, you know, everything that I knew up until that point, I knew and it was it was comfort that came and knowledge and this this unknown aspect of this

Speaker A

whatever this thing was going on, I knew nothing about. And that's when I knew that everything I know really amounts to a limitation because the unknown is is unlimited.

Speaker A

So let's go and see what that's all about. And The thing that when I went to go and see was the thing that wasn't.

Speaker A

Yeah. So you mean the, the, the self engages in this inquiry and the inquiry if it works, dissolves the self which initiated the process in the first place.

Speaker A

Right. So would your advice to two people who have been involved in spirituality for a long time and they've studied all the texts and everything, but they haven't really gone through this process, would your advice to them be

Speaker A

just start like just set everything aside, beginner's mind, you know, nothing. Look more deeply into your direct experience and don't bring all the assumptions and stuff from your spiritual study to that.

Speaker A

Yeah, there's a, there's a couple of components with that. That's, that's one way. But also understand that the what the traditions were teaching were methods, and the method and the methods are there to be used and the beliefs are to be put aside.

Speaker A

You know, we get caught up in the belief aspect of this with the the traditions and the religions that we don't see the methods like the 112 methods there were methods to look and discover some of the stuff within ourselves.

Speaker A

So I didn't have all of the baggage of the beliefs behind it. I just went to try these things out and see exactly what see what will happen.

Speaker A

I had no expectations. But again, those were teachings and there were methods. So in in that regard, it's not to throw out the, you know, the baby with the bathwater.

Speaker A

It's to discern the methods from your beliefs and really apply the methods. See what works.

Speaker A

Yeah, I agree. Great. And one more question about reality. Would you say that when we are immersed in direct experience, meaning to say, totally non conceptual, direct experience where you can't say anything about it or even label it because the label is already a separation and interpretation,

Speaker A

but you're just immersed in direct experience like you're there with the in the forest or whatever, wherever you are, because you be anywhere, you could be in the inner city too, and you're immersed in it without giving any credence

Speaker A

to any interpretations or thoughts that arise. Would you say that in that mode that's communion with reality as such, or would you not say that.

Speaker A

You hear that? That's that's that's all that can be said about that. Nice. Yeah it's...

Speaker A

Perfect. Yeah. It's amazing how good the mind can be at co-opting anything. You know? Because it's like you'll be like immersing in direct experience or whatever you want to call it, just immersed in the presence that is.

Speaker A

And then later the mind is like that. I experience direct experience, reality, you know, and as soon as it becomes a concept, it's it's, it's not it.

Speaker A

And we enter into concepts that's second nature for for for human beings. So it's becoming, I would say, habituated from from that giving giving concepts credence, you know, because I teach the same thing that that you say of like it's not that you have to stop stop thoughts

Speaker A

it's you just have to stop giving them credit, stop giving them significance, a reality. Right?

Speaker A

Yeah. That's what, that's what empowers the, the mental construct to go, go on and forward.

Speaker A

You know there, I don't know. For me I'm a very mechanical person with the type of work that we do.

Speaker A

So once, once the components, how these things function were seen, that was, that was it.

Speaker A

There was no, nothing needed to be done to change any of them. You know, thoughts are are okay.

Speaker A

We can do some thoughts that are pretty far out there. And I'm like, well, that's that's not my thought.

Speaker A

And then there are thoughts about extreme and that's also not one. So if you're going to pick and choose which one you're going to latch onto, you know, you can't really pick and choose when it come with thoughts.

Speaker A

So as seeing them for exactly what they are and you know, they're they're doing their thing.

Speaker A

That's cool. Yeah. Exactly. That's why that's why the positive thinking method doesn't work. Because if if you attach to some thought, then some other thought you don't like as well will attach to you.

Speaker A

You know, it's, it's you can't, you can't have it one way, you know, it's it there's got to be a disengagement from from thought as from taking thought to signify reality.

Speaker A

Right. And then we don't go around imbuing them with negative and positive aspects because we have this this thing that we gravitate towards positivity only.

Speaker A

And if we engage with positive thoughts, then you're engaging with all of them. So if you hook into positive, it's it's you only get to appreciate the positive when the negative arises.

Speaker A

And as the negative arises, you can appreciate that as well. If you appreciate both of them.

Speaker A

The same way, you can just let them be because you know they're cool. No judgment.

Speaker A

Okay, So last question. How like How does your family see the shift, you know, that happened in you or your wife or whoever?

Speaker A

Like, can they can they see, wow like, he really went through this big shift and now he's like, so chill or whatever.

Speaker A

How would they characterize this, do you think. My wife is is more at ease and and peaceful is how she she kind of sees it. There isn't I'm not reactive like how I used to. She's seen the transformation

Speaker A

because she was in the midst of how things were during all of the turmoil before going through this process.

Speaker A

And as we we kind of grew together. One of the the initial thing I said to her when we were in when I was in a treatment facility, there is a therapist that we go through and they had like family day

Speaker A

and she would come up and she came up, I think once or twice. And I said to her, as, you know, I'm here.

Speaker A

I'm here to I want to break the mold. I don't know what that means.

Speaker A

But this entire thing, however, was it was going, I just want to see see this through and, you know, coming back and we moved back in together and she wanted to sit with me one day because I would just kind of like sit and meditate and stuff and,

Speaker A

you know, be more interactive with the girls, do things with them. And when her and I said she had her own experience, not to say that, you know, I cause that experience, but the space was just there for her and I

Speaker A

and she started going through her own shifts and Awakening process as well. And it started permeating through our kids and the way that we interact with them because we see these conditionings for what they are and how they come up

Speaker A

and what kind of effects they have, what kind of karma they cause so the kids themselves are more free in this space too.

Speaker A

So it's like, it's like everything just self-correct and then it's like all the effort that was being put forward prior to this to, to make this perfect life was deviating from the perfection that already was the perception is the thing that shifted.

Speaker A

The perfection has always been here. The need to try and make it this perfect life by trying to do all of this stuff.

Speaker A

That effort was the the error in my perception with that and that's what shifted and everything recalibrated on its own.

Speaker A

When this me thing, this efforting factor relaxed. You know one day the wife definitely sees that.

Speaker A

But that would be a conversation for her. Yeah you know. That's beautiful, man. And the reason I raised that is because, you know, there's people out there that have learned all the philosophy and they and they can meditate

Speaker A

really well and they can still their mind and they they, they kind of think they're enlightened.

Speaker A

And and I say, well, one of the tests says, you know, the people in your life see this profound shift, this transformation, because it's possible for some people to just, you know, inhabit a concept of enlightenment and but in their daily life, you know,

Speaker A

they're still believing thoughts and, you know, fighting with their spouse or whatever. And that's the thing, if it's if it's real, it's going to affect everything Right.

Speaker A

Yeah the, some of the things that came into into focus was what was really, really, really important which was the, you know, my it was it was never about me.

Speaker A

Like things aren't ever directed at me. It's always about others. And with them it's, you know, my wife to the two girls and, you know, whoever is immediately around me.

Speaker A

But the majority of my time now is just that it's it's with them. That's where that's where everything is.

Speaker A

There's nothing directed to to this me that wants things, you know, it's always about, about others.

Speaker A

So and that's that in itself is a you know, there really isn't much to talk about in ways of how a self functions or how my self function in the world, because there is nothing of validity really there.

Speaker A

Yeah. So the stories don't really have a place to land. Not to say that they didn't have an importance, but you know, it's not even something that, that I really, really talk about.

Speaker A

It's always about engaging in others with others and having discussions and conversations with them, and it's only ever about this now.

Speaker A

It's it's so strange that, you know, after the shifts occurred, that's when people started reaching out from like all over the place.

Speaker A

And these are the conversations that that I that I have. And this is the only thing if there was anything to to talk about is this.

Speaker A

Yeah. And do you see the same Awakeness shining out of everyone's eyes? Like for me even if the person is deluded and confused and what we call unawake Mysteriously the same Awakeness is there just not recognizing itself like that.

Speaker A

The same one looking out of all of these eyes. Is that how you experience, or is it?

Speaker A

How would you say it? Yeah, it's everybody is already awake. It's just they have this idea and that's it.

Speaker A

It's trippy, man. It's like I'm you're watching and then you hear and the story that's coming out saying something completely contradictory, it's like you're no, but, you know, you go through the process to to see that, you know, you get up to look, to see that you didn't need to get up and look.

Speaker A

Yeah, well beautiful. It's it's wonderful to speak with you about these things. And I know you do one on one coaching people can reach out to you and you do this coaching because you know that if there's anything, any help that can be rendered,

Speaker A

it's it's often rendered most effectively in that in that one on one context. I mean I teach larger groups, but the challenge with that is you have to speak in more general terms and it's and it really works better often if you're if you're

Speaker A

inflecting the teaching in a way that that applies to the apparent individual. Yeah. It’s, that's what I found to be most most effective because as you're speaking with someone, you can kind of see exactly where where they're at with it and

Speaker A

speak to that in a way where it can dispel some things and it's most effective like that.

Speaker A

But that, you know, that's not to say that group speaking stuff is isn't important as well because it it brings awareness and attention to all of this.

Speaker A

So both in regard to their their importance. For myself that's that's the the thing it's it's like a blade kind of cutting right through.

Speaker A

And that one on one I find to be the most effective when it comes to that with the person itself.

Speaker A

Yeah the individual. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for this conversation and for all the service that you do.

Speaker A

I know it just comes naturally, but I can still appreciate it and celebrate this.

Speaker A

Is this is the only thing we can do really to to, as it were, make the world a better place, even though everything's already perfect at a deeper level.

Speaker A

Still, there's a satisfaction in helping people be free of their suffering that they create for themselves.

Speaker A

Yeah, yeah. There's a there's a reward there that just can't be spoken about, you know, when it's seen and recognized that, you know, what is there perceiving out of you is we we can see this similarly that's here perceiving out of me.

Speaker A

But when when it recognizes itself it's a it I mean like this is where all the words get kind of weird, but it's just it's known, you know.

Speaker A

Yeah. Wonderful. So I think your website is sensewithoutmind.com It is, yes. Yeah. So people can check that out.

Speaker A

And can they request a one on one through your website. Yes. There's a sessions tab that they can book a session or there is a contact tab that if they want to reach out a question or have a conversation

Speaker A

with, they can they can do it that way as well. And I believe my email is on there as well so they can send me emails too.

Speaker A

Okay great. So maybe we can have another conversation down the line or whatever but it's just wonderful to, to be aware of your of your contribution and which I wasn't before.

Speaker A

And thank you for taking the time for the conversation. Well, thank you for having me.

Speaker A

Yeah. Hope you enjoyed the episode. Remember, you can always find out more about the tradition of Nondual Shaiva Tantra at tantrailluminated.org where if you wish, you can become a subscriber to our online learning portal and you'll receive access to a vast number of recordings,

Speaker A

including a comprehensive curriculum in Tantric philosophy, Tantric yoga, guided meditation, and much, much more.

Speaker A

Music for the podcast, composed and recorded by Anne Leader find her at anneleader.com podcast produced by Grazia Tribulato New episodes drop every week, and may all beings benefit.

Topics:Nondual Shaiva TantraawakeningEshwar SegobindChristopher Wallisnondualityspiritual awakeningaddiction recoveryselfless awarenessphilosophypsychology

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