Speaker A
All right. What's up? Welcome.
A heated debate between Jay Dyer and an Orthodox Muslim speaker over Allah's knowability in Islam and the Gospel genealogies of Jesus, marked by interruptions and mutual accusations of evasion.
Key Takeaways
- The debate became dominated by procedural disputes and interruptions rather than substantive argument.
- The Islamic unknowability argument turns on whether analogical predication can refer to Allah's actual attributes.
- The Gospel genealogy dispute centers on whether Luke's genealogy is Mary's, a common apologetic claim lacking explicit textual support.
- The exchange ended with the Muslim speaker walking out, leaving key arguments unresolved.
What the video covers
- The debate opens with a dispute over format: the Muslim speaker wants to discuss Allah and Christian doctrine of God, while Jay Dyer insists on structured two-minute opening statements.
- The Muslim speaker argues from Quran 42:11 that Allah is nothing like the created order, making Allah unknowable and all descriptive terms (merciful, loving) merely analogical.
- He notes historical disputes among Islamic schools (Ibn Taymiyyah's view that Allah has a shin/foot versus schools calling this absurd or shirk).
- He contends that since the Quran is a created text using analogical language, its predicates never touch their true referent, making Allah unknowable by his own revealed theology.
- The speaker presents a 'simple' objection regarding the two Gospel genealogies of Jesus, one tracing through Solomon and one through Nathan.
- Jay Dyer responds that one genealogy reflects Mary's lineage and the other Joseph's, and is challenged to show the text states this.
- Frequent cross-talk, interruptions, and personal jabs (including insults and accusations of cowardice) dominate the exchange.
- The speaker eventually leaves the discussion, and the video's final segment includes accusations that Dyer drove him out.
- Dyer closes by questioning the relevance of the topic, suggesting the discussion had wandered from the intended subject (filioque).
Chapters
- 00:00Opening and debate format dispute
- 01:15Agreement on Christianity vs. Islam topic
- 02:31Muslim speaker's argument on Allah's transcendence
- 06:29Analogical predication and unknowability of Allah
- 08:18Presentation of the Gospel genealogy objection
- 10:08Dispute over whether Luke traces Mary's lineage
- 14:10Escalating interruptions and personal accusations
- 18:33Speaker leaves; closing remarks and relevance dispute
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
So, can we talk about Allah, the Christian doctrine of God? Hello. Can you hear me?
Speaker A
I appreciate OM's willingness to come do this. So, let me bring him up here.
Speaker A
but it's okay because I'm going to show you that I don't back down from a discussion like you. Obviously, you need some preparing to do, but we agreed that we're going to talk Christianity versus Islam right?
Speaker A
So, can we talk about Allah, the Christian doctrine of God? Hello. Can you hear me?
Speaker A
Yeah. That involves Allah, right? Yeah, of course. that involves anything relating to to to Allah. So, uh in Quran 42, can I can I finish?
Speaker A
Yeah. What's up?
Speaker A
I'm still I'm still finishing, brother. Thank you so much, man. I know I know I know you want to talk about things that you're comfortable with because you see that I'm a I'm a bit of a challenge to
Speaker A
Okay, perfect, man. So, I just want to confirm. You invited me here, offered me $500, and I said I don't want your $500. I'll come on your platform. Although you could have debated me on my TikTok or last night, but it's okay because I'm going to show you that I don't back down from a discussion like you. Obviously, you need some preparing to do, but we agreed that we're going to talk Christianity versus Islam, right?
Speaker A
Can I can I can I finish Can I finish talking? So, I'm going to get a 2 minutes introduction to give my argument, and you're going to give a two-minute introduction to give your argument, and then we can go from there.
Speaker A
Sure. Yeah.
Speaker A
That's how conversations work. Well, I mean, I didn't agree to that, but Oh. So, so, so you're here because you just want to interrogate me and then you want to kick me and me not actually get to Do you want to You don't want to talk
Speaker A
So, can we talk about Allah? So, so we're going to talk about Christianity versus Islam, right?
Speaker A
Are you scared? Sure. Okay. I'm not scared, but So, I'll do I'll do you could I could start or you could start with a two-minute introduction. give a quick argument or support for Islam or Christianity or a support for
Speaker A
Yeah. That involves Allah, right?
Speaker A
Yeah. Quran 42 says that Allah is nothing like anything in the created order and this has caused a lot of conflict in the history of Islam between the different schools, the different Aikidas. Some of these schools believe that all I can be compared to creatures.
Speaker A
Yeah, of course. That involves anything relating to Allah.
Speaker A
Other schools of Islam would call this absurd, and stupid. But it all goes back to the fundamental question that in the Quran and in Islamic theology as a whole, Allah is not knowable. And he's not knowable not because of some uh you know abstract
Speaker A
So, uh, in Quran 42, can I finish? It talks about Allah not being like anything in creation.
Speaker A
created text. In other words, the book that you have in your hand is a created Quran. And all the terms that are used are analogical. for example, merciful, uh, loving, etc. Although you could debate whether I think loving is used
Speaker A
Yes. How do you speak about Allah?
Speaker A
created notion of a shin, the created idea in your head of mercy bears no semblance, no similarity to Allah. And so these predicates never touch upon their reference. And thus Allah by his own definition, by his own theology
Speaker A
I'm still finishing, brother. Thank you so much, man. I know you want to talk about things that you're comfortable with, because you see that I'm a bit of a challenge to you. So, you don't actually know exactly where you're going to answer that question?
Speaker A
comfortable with. But it's okay. As as a matter of fact, I'm going to do Jay Dyer a favor today. I'm going to give the most simple argument against Christianity that you are supposed to know as a level A grade one apologist. And I'm going to
Speaker A
Can I finish talking? So, I'm going to get a two-minute introduction to give my argument, and you're going to get a two-minute introduction to give your argument, and then we can go from there. Sound good?
Speaker A
simplest of objection. So the the my objection very simple objection. You should know this. You should laugh at this is a dais script, right? That uh so he's already he's already giggling and stuff. I'd appreciate if you didn't
Speaker A
So, you don't want to talk about Allah?
Speaker A
Matthew and Luke. Uh, and we'll see if you could even answer a gradea level objection and we'll see if you could answer it. Um, as for Islam, I would say Islam is true because of that mass transmission of the miracles of of the
Speaker A
No, we're going to talk. I'm going to give my argument against you, and you're going to give your argument against me. That's how conversations work.
Speaker A
uh, my simple simple argument today and let's see if you could answer it is, uh, there's a genealogy that goes back to Solomon to David in one gospel and a genealogy that goes back to Nathan and David from another gospel. So, I'd like
Speaker A
Well, I mean, I didn't agree to that, but—
Speaker A
Yeah. One of them is dealing with Mary's lineage to show that she fulfills also the Davidic line. And the other one is focusing on uh the lineage. I don't know why you're laughing when why are you laughing? You asked me not to laugh.
Speaker A
Oh. So, you're here because you just want to interrogate me, and then you want to kick me, and me not actually get to—do you not want to talk about Allah?
Speaker A
We said two-minute intros and then open discussion right? Well, I mean, I let you set the rules at the beginning. That's fine. Okay. You didn't say anything about open discussion after that but whatever. So yeah I mean it's very easy to find the
Speaker A
No, I want to talk about Allah, but I also want to talk about your religion. Are you scared?
Speaker A
Beautiful. So Jay Dyer has already fell in the trap. He said that one genealogy and I'm I'm showing you guys that he can't even deal with the simplest grade level objection. He said that one refers to Mary's genealogy and the other refers
Speaker A
Sure. Okay. I'm not scared, but I'll do—could I start, or could you start with a two-minute introduction? Give a quick argument or support for Islam or Christianity, or an argument against Christianity, or support for Christianity against Islam. I'll give an argument against Christianity, support for Islam, and then we can get going.
Speaker A
Are you this stupid like it has to show me where it show me where it says it's Mary's genealogy? Jire, where do you prove that it has to state that it's Mary? [clears throat] You just said beautiful. You just made a
Speaker A
Yeah. Quran 42 says that Allah is nothing like anything in the created order, and this has caused a lot of conflict in the history of Islam between the different schools, the different aqidas. Some of these schools believe that Allah cannot be compared to creatures. Other schools consider this to be shirk. They consider it to be idolatry. For example, Ibn Taymiyyah, the Muslim metaphysician, is in the school that thinks that Allah has a shin, has an uncreated foot, etc. Other schools of Islam would call this absurd and stupid.
Speaker A
respond to the most basic objection. You said J Dire that one is dealing Can you stop cutting me off? You said J Dyer that one is dealing with Mary's lineage.
Speaker A
But it all goes back to the fundamental question: in the Quran and in Islamic theology as a whole, Allah is not knowable. And he's not knowable not because of some abstract philosophical doctrine, but precisely because of the way that he's presented in the Quran. He's presented as a totally transcendent being, again, said more than once to be nothing like the created order. Yet every description that we have, both of Allah and of the Quran, is a created text. In other words, the book that you have in your hand is a created Quran. And all the terms that are used are analogical. For example, merciful, loving, etc. Although you could debate whether "loving" is used once, Allah as merciful or whatever, all these terms are analogical in that they relate to created things, just like shins or just like hands. But Allah is nothing like the created order. And so even the concept in your head, the created notion of a shin, the created idea in your head of mercy, bears no semblance, no similarity to Allah. And so these predicates never touch upon their reference. And thus Allah, by his own definition, by his own theology supposedly revealed, is not knowable.
Speaker A
Say what? Is one dealing with Mary's lineage? Yeah. Where does it say? Okay. Show me. Show me where you gotify that.
Speaker A
Okay, perfect. Thank you so much, Jay Dyer. So, everybody could see here that Jay Dyer is already off to a bad start, already manifesting, talking about things that he feels comfortable with. But it's okay. As a matter of fact, I'm going to do Jay Dyer a favor today. I'm going to give the most simple argument against Christianity that you are supposed to know as a level-A, grade-one apologist. And I'm going to show you that even Jay Dyer himself, who markets himself as the final boss, leader of the Ortho Bros, can't even answer the simplest of objections. So, my objection is very simple. You should know this. You should laugh at this.
Speaker A
The argument that you're making assumes that it has to explicitly say that. Nope. The argument The argument that I'm making does not. So, so Jay Dyer, you said where does that and I'm saying it doesn't have to explicitly say that
Speaker A
It's a Dias script, right? So he's already giggling and stuff. I'd appreciate if you didn't giggle in my time, man. Thank you.
Speaker A
[laughter] It's already looking bad. He doesn't even He doesn't even know how to answer to the level one objection.
Speaker A
Yeah, we know. We know your theatrics. So, I'm going to give a simple contradiction. The simple contradiction, according to the genealogy accounts given in the New Testament. You should already know this: the two Gospels, Matthew and Luke. And we'll see if you can even answer a grade-A level objection. As for Islam, I would say Islam is true because of the mass transmission of the miracles of the prophets, the prophecies in the Bible that are clear. They're not typological garbage like the ones you believe in about Christ, that he's a dying and rising savior, a mythological man-God who's going to die on a stick.
Speaker A
This is not a zoo, bro. Stop acting like an animal, dude. Nobody's doing this but you the All right. So you just said J. Jay Dyer, can I can I can I enga can I engage you, Jay Dyer, or are you going to keep
Speaker A
So, my simple, simple argument today, and let's see if you can answer it, is there's a genealogy that goes back to Solomon and David in one Gospel, and a genealogy that goes back to Nathan and David in another Gospel. So, I'd like to know, can this guy stop messaging me? I'd like to know if you can answer that, and we can get into the conversation now.
Speaker A
You just spoke. You just spoke. I'm going to respond now. Like, are you okay dude?
Speaker A
Yeah. One of them is dealing with Mary's lineage, to show that she fulfills the Davidic line, and the other one is focusing on the lineage. I don't know why you're laughing. Why are you laughing? You asked me not to laugh.
Speaker A
why is that even an issue if that's my let me respond agree with that?
Speaker A
Oh, we're doing open dialogue now. We don't have the book of—no. Who said that? We didn't specify that. We said two-minute intros and then open discussion, right?
Speaker A
Wow. We thought Jay Dyer was a petristic scholar and he belongs to the ancient church and he's he's using a response that comes from the 15th century that does not predate the 15th century.
Speaker A
Well, I mean, I let you set the rules at the beginning. That's fine. Okay. You didn't say anything about open discussion after that, but whatever. So, yeah, I mean, it's very easy to find the answer to this question. Many scholars have dealt with this, with two different genealogies pertaining to two different houses.
Speaker A
Point number point number let me finish. Point number two. Where does it say Mary's lineage?
Speaker A
Beautiful. So Jay Dyer has already fallen into the trap. He said that one genealogy—and I'm showing you guys that he can't even deal with the simplest grade-level objection—he said that one refers to Mary's genealogy and the other refers to Joseph's genealogy. Jay, can you please show me where it says Mary's genealogy? Anywhere?
Speaker A
Can you stop cutting me off something that you can't demonstrate? Jay Dyer, can you stop cutting me off, man?
Speaker A
Are you this stupid? It has to show me where it says it's Mary's genealogy. Jay, where do you prove that it has to state that it's Mary?
Speaker A
You're just repeating the same point. I'm repeating I'm repeating that you're cutting me off. Let me engage your point one by one because I'm burying you right now on the grade level. Jay Dyer, stop talking man.
Speaker A
*[clears throat]* You just said "beautiful." You just made a claim. Say that.
Speaker A
You did. That was your I did not stop cutting me off. I'm not cutting you off. You're just repeating.
Speaker A
I didn't say that it had to state that. You said that.
Speaker A
J Dyer does not want to talk, man. You do not want to talk to me, dude.
Speaker A
Okay. No, you made the claim that one is dealing with—can I finish? You made the claim, Jay Dyer, and you see, you can't even respond to the most basic objection. You said, "J Dyer, that one is dealing—" Can you stop cutting me off? You said, "J Dyer, that one is dealing with Mary's lineage."
Speaker A
You're not going to answer my question. I'm answering I'm engaging what you said. You said it doesn't happen. Do one for one.
Speaker A
Yeah, I didn't say it had to specify that you had—okay. Is one dealing with Mary's lineage?
Speaker A
you were smart and read in the petricics, you would at least quote the answer that Julius Africanis gives because that's your best bet. But you didn't even Let me finish. Let me finish. But you didn't even know about
Speaker A
Say what? Is one dealing with Mary's lineage?
Speaker A
All right. This is why this doesn't work. You see this is why are you going to let Are you going to let me talk?
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
You're just cutting me off. You're talking faster than you could think because you're caught. So just hear me out.
Speaker A
Where does it say? Okay. Show me. Show me where you got that. Show me where you got that it's dealing with Mary's lineage.
Speaker A
Even Sam Shimone here who's listening thinks you look bad. So let me let me answer you now. You claimed cuz I said the contradicies or or the genealogies are contradictory. You said well no they're not contradictory because one
Speaker A
The argument tha
Speaker A
Although the plain reading of the text connects it to Joseph and not Mary. So now I ask you please substantiate your claim that this is Mary.
Speaker A
They're both from the house of David. Everyone knows this. Can you prove that Mary is from the house of David?
Speaker A
How do you know what the plain reading is? I don't believe there are plain readings of text.
Speaker A
Oh, you don't know. Okay. So when it says How do you know what the plain reading?
Speaker A
Oh, it's it's it's very easy. I got you. Oh. Oh. Ah. How do you know?
Speaker A
Dude, are you are you a monkey or something? Are you good? That that that did not that did not land bro.
Speaker A
So now I'm I'm answering you. You said, "How do I know what the plane reading is?" You just asked me a question. I'm about to answer. You said, "How do I know what the plane reading?" Look, dude, are you okay? Do you have
Speaker A
mental issues? You asked, "How do I know the plane reading?" I am now answering.
Speaker A
I know the plain reading because there are readings when it comes to language when it comes to context. There are [laughter] so this guy so so so you don't want to talk. So Jay Dyer, you don't you don't
Speaker A
want you don't want to talk. J D is the plane. It already It looks bad, man. Now you're doing Indian sounds.
Speaker A
You know the plane. So Jay Dyer is now doing Indian sounds. Now Jay Dyer is doing Indian sounds while trying to have a conversation.
Speaker A
Is that a circular? So Jay Dyer wants to do Indian sounds instead of talk.
Speaker A
Jire. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Keep keep doing Indian sounds. I know your your Ortho broke cuck followers are going to eat it up because you don't actually want to discuss. Can I Can I Can I respond to you instead of
Speaker A
you doing Indian sounds? You're melting down. Are we am I am I going to respond to you?
Speaker A
Reading. So, am I are we actually going to talk, Jay? How do you know the plain?
Speaker A
I'm about to answer. Shut up. Lord have mercy. Be quiet. You just said, "How do I know the plain reading?" When it comes to language, when we're reading a sentence, there are sentences that are clear and unequivocal. And there are sentences
Speaker A
Dude, are you going to are you going to keep cutting me off? Yo, J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J D D D D D D D
Speaker A
D D D D D D D D D D D D D J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J D D D D D D
Speaker A
D D D D D D D D D D D D D D, you just cut me off again. It's It looks bad. It looks It looks bad again, Jay Dyer. Cuz as soon as I start answering, you keep
Speaker A
you keep you keep cutting me off. If I made a mistake, then wait your turn, Jay Dyer. You suck at this.
Speaker A
You made a mistake. You got I know I know you sucked at this, Jay Dyer. So wait for me.
Speaker A
You admitted that you made a mistake. If you think I made a mistake, then wait until I'm finished, Jay Dyer. So, we're already being sofist here.
Speaker A
How do you know the plane reading? I'm I was in the middle of answering before you started acting like a chimp and cut me off. Stop acting like a chimpanzee and let me finish my answer.
Speaker A
How about that? Other than reading. So, it's just reading. I'm about I'm you can I finish, bro?
Speaker A
Can I finish? Yeah, we we we knew you weren't actually going to go through with the debate, bro. We knew. Everybody knew.
Speaker A
So, you said, "How do I know the plane reading?" This is I'm going to destroy.
Speaker A
Hey, bro. Hey, bro. Are we Are we going to keep doing this? Are we going to keep playing around?
Speaker A
You said I won't do the debate. Here we are doing Are you going to keep cutting me off, doing Indian sounds, being a chimp instead of talking?
Speaker A
You haven't answered any question. I was in the middle of answering. I was in the middle of answering when you started chimping out like a hooligan.
Speaker A
Are you going to Are you Am I going to get to finish an answer now?
Speaker A
You repeating you repeating the question doesn't mean that I wasn't in in the middle of answering. So Jay Dyer, I I offered you the grace to come on your platform. So be respectful of my time, please. I don't want your 500.
Speaker A
I don't want your $500, but every time I start answering, please don't cut me off.
Speaker A
The answer, yo, Jay Dyer, do it one more time and I'm out of here, bro.
Speaker A
Jire. Yeah, one more time. You cut me off one more time, you're not getting the debate anymore. Read the clear. So I'm going to I'm going to start answering now. J Dire you said how do I know what the plain
Speaker A
reading is? This is sulfism at its finest because if some Why are you cutting me off already? What is wrong with you?
Speaker A
Not soft. All right, Jay Dyer. One more time. Jay Dyer and I'm out of here. I'm going start answering again.
Speaker A
One more time. You asked, "How do I know the plain reading?" Now I'm Now I'm answering. I have to like uh call out every time I answer so you don't cut me off.
Speaker A
Yeah, I know the plane read. Okay. All right. Thank you, brother. Have a good day. Enjoy your day, man.
Speaker A
[laughter] Look at him. Look at him run. Look at him run. What an idiot. So, you notice when it comes to basic philosophical questions on his live stream, he was bragging about knowing epistemology. And so, when it comes to epistemology, we go
Speaker A
into that domain. Oh, well, you just go to the plain reading of the text. And notice I asked him a clear question at the beginning about Allah having no similarity to creatures. He totally wanted to avoid that. Didn't want to go
Speaker A
there. So all he does is yap. You saw him run away. So that's what we get with these guys. Um Sam, did you want to comment? You might want to comment on the specifics of that genealogy because I know you've done some good videos on
Speaker A
that before. We've talked about uh what Luke presents in terms of Mary's relationship to David uh and under underneath the headship of Joseph. Even if you're busy, you don't have to comment on that. We can go to somebody else.
Speaker A
Orphan, what's up, man? So, this guy's a joke, dude. This guy's making the biggest noise and it's the biggest bunch of nothing.
Speaker A
Jay, what's going on, man? Why did you kick him out? I didn't kick him out. He left.
Speaker A
You just you literally just kicked him out bro. No, I didn't. Everybody saw he left.
Speaker A
You're lying. Your behavior is the reason he left. You pretty much kicked him out, Jay.
Speaker A
Oh, I So, I didn't actually kick him out. Now you move the goalpost to pretty much cuz he left.
Speaker A
Dude, I was looking forward to this debate, but you What's the What's the plain reading of the text?
Speaker A
When you read the Bible or you read This is how stupid you when you read something. No, let me explain to you what a He doesn't know what he's talking about.
Speaker A
Sam, did you want to comment? Gotta unmute. See, I knew this was going to be a disaster. He's going to come here, talk all this and then run away. Sam, you want to unmute?
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah, I'm here, brother. Go ahead. Yeah, I know. He tried to use me against you. Yeah. Sorry about that, man. I I said, yeah, you're going to waste your time with him, but nonetheless, it's interesting. He's trying to try to
Speaker A
go to Julius Africanis because of Luke 3. What was his argument about the genealogy and how to get to the genealogy?
Speaker A
Oh, just the classic sort of Reddit argument that they contradict and I'm like, well, I mean, there's plenty of videos. I know you've even done several videos on this about how Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah. I address it, but I'm just curious what did that got to do with your topic though? I thought it was a filioquay.
Speaker A
No, he wanted to come and discuss any arguments and he would only discuss if I let him say anything and then I ask him anything. So I asked him about uh Allah's similarity to creatures. He asked me about the genealogy.
Speaker A
I see. So he was harping on the genealogy. Is there contradictory? Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean what do I say to them if I show him that within the context of Luke itself, the focus is on Mary, not
Speaker A
on Joseph. Yeah, that's what I said. So obviously if you're going to read it contextually Joseph is going to stand in the place of Mary because even the Islam acknowledges and the early tradition states Mary is an only child. We know this. And as the
Speaker A
only child, Joseph is going to be the one who stands in the place, right, representing her father's line. But obviously, he doesn't want to read it sympathetically. He wants to read it in a fashion [clears throat] in order to make a contradiction exist
Speaker A
between Matthew and Luke. Well, he actually said, Yeah, he actually said that Luke has to specifically say, quote, "This is Mary's genealogy." Yeah. I mean, that's obviously he's got to go that route because he has to find a problem in the New Testament in order
Speaker A
to pit the writers against themselves to destroy their credibility. This why the Islamic dilemma would work wonders against them. But nonetheless, my question to these Muslims would be this. Since the Messiah has to be from the line of
Speaker A
David, [clears throat] Quranically speaking, how is Jesus from the line of David since you acknowledge a virgin birth? Now, I can't share the link here. I have a link where the Muslim scholars actually attributed guess which gospel accounts lineage to
Speaker A
Mary. I have it here, but I don't know. Wait, I'll send I'm assuming Luke.
Speaker A
Uh, well, here, guess what? Here it is. Here's the link. I sent it to you in your Sorry, man. My voice is under the weather because you know the heat. Did you see it? I sent it to you in your DM.
Speaker A
Yeah, I'll link it right underneath this chat. Let me let me read to you. This comes from the history of Alabari. Okay, let me read this if it's okay. Do you mind if I read it?
Speaker A
No, please do. Okay. According to Iban Hbak, as far as I could learn from her lineage, Mary was the daughter of Imran.
Speaker A
Now note, according to the Quran 66:12, Mary's father is Imran. I want everyone listen to this. I want you to catch this and listen to this because I want you to see the huge embarrassment and blunder of the Quran. Guys, I want you to note
Speaker A
her father's name is Imran. That's 6612. Even the Muslim historians when they want to give a lineage of Jesus's mother, they say her father's Imran.
Speaker A
Chapter 1928. I want all the orthobros whom now I love you guys. I love you guys, man. Can you give me an honorary badge so I can be an orthobro too? May the orbs be with all of you. But anyway,
Speaker A
in chapter 19 27-28, Mary is said to be the sister of Aaron. Follow the logic here. Mary, daughter of Imran, sister of Aaron. Chapter 19 27-28.
Speaker A
In chapter 3 35-36 J Mary's mother is the wife of Imran. Now the only Mary who has a brother named Aaron and a father named Imran is the sister of Moses.
Speaker A
Exodus 15:20 Numbers 26:59 we're told Mediam Hebrew Mediam and by the way in Arabic Mary's called Mediam the sister of Aaron.
Speaker A
And we're told numbers 26 5859 that Imam which would correspond to Imran Imam his wife gave birth to his children Miriam, Aaron and Moses. So the only Miam who has a father named Aaron I'm sorry Iran, a brother named Aaron is a
Speaker A
sister Moses. So the Quran thinks that Moses is Jesus's uncle. So, I'll have a field day with that one. But now, let me read what says. Mary was the daughter of Imran, son of Josiah, son of Ammon, son of
Speaker A
Manasseh, son of Hezekiah, son of Ahziah, son of Jotham, son of Azariah, son of Amziah, son of Joash, son of Ahaziah, son of Joram, son of Jehoshaphat, son of Asah, son of Abijah, son of Rahobam, son of Solomon. They
Speaker A
actually mixed the details of Matthew genealogy because that's what they're getting their information and attributed to Mary.
Speaker A
So I want you to see they took parts of Matthew's genealogy and not only ascribed it to Joseph but garbled it up and ascribed it to Mary.
Speaker A
So if I go with the Muslim historians, the names listed in Matthew's genealogy that connect Jesus through Joseph to David, they garbled it up and now ascribed it to Joseph and Mary.
Speaker A
This is history of Alabari English translation volume 4, the ancient kingdom, pages 103, 104. So if he has a problem with the genealogies of Matthew and Luke, at least we have genealogies. We can harmonize them, but he doesn't want to
Speaker A
accept harmonization. That's why I don't waste my time. I go back to the Islamic dilemma.
Speaker A
But I want to know the Muslim Jewish messianic dilemma. For Jesus to be the Messiah according to Jewish tradition based on scriptures, he has to be the son of David. How is he the son of David? How can you prove it from your
Speaker A
Quran? You can't do that, can you? Now can I read one more? Sure. Okay. This again comes from Tabi. It says that Mary daughter of Imran from the family lineage of Daw David. How I want them to prove to you Jay that Mary the sister of
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Moses who would become the maternal uncle of Jesus. How is she connected to David? I would like to know that. Can they give you genealogy? They can. But we know Jesus has to be a descendant of David.
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And even here, Ibn Cthiru contradicts himself. In one place, Ibn Cathe will say that Mary is from the line of [clears throat] David, but then contradicts himself elsewhere because the Quran is garble and then we'll ascribe her lineage to that of Aaron.
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But here I want you to see what Iben Cathir says regarding Mary making Jesus a descendant of David and a descendant of Abraham even though you're supposed to trace your lineage from your father's side but he's exceptional. This is from
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Ibir his commentary on chapter 3:33. Allah states that he has chosen these households over the people of the earth.
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For instance, Allah chose Adam. Let me skip to the relevant part. Allah also chose the household of Imran, the father of Miriam, bent Imran, daughter of Imran, the mother of Isa. So Isa is from the offspring of Ibraim. How? From his
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mother. So I would like to know since they nified the gospels. I like to know can you demonstrate to us from your Quran how is Jesus a descendant of Abraham and David when he has a mother? What evidence can you give
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to confirm as Messiah his royal lineage to David? Stop nitpicking on the gospels. Focus on your Quran which cannot exist apart from the Bible because the Quran assumes the prior knowledge of the scriptures and the traditions of the Jews and Christians
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which is why it cannot tell you why Jesus is the Messiah. I would like the answer to that. Why is he the Messiah?
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What is the Messiah? How do you know? You can't go to my Bible when it's convenient to bail out your Quran and then attack my Bible because it contradicts the Quran, proving Muhammad is an antichrist. It's not going to
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work. you could go on and on, brother.
Topics:Jay DyerIslamChristianityAllahQurandebateGospel genealogydivine unknowabilityapologeticsIbn Taymiyyah
