Everything Was Becoming More and More Beautiful -- Interview with Lisa Cairns

So today I have a guest that I've known for several years. She is a non-duality speaker and teacher. She does about a weekly live that's free for anyone to join on, I think, her YouTube channel. She has a YouTube channel with many videos going back like 10 years. She's a friend of mine. We interact, you know, relatively infrequently, but I would actually consider her a teacher to me in some ways for sure. And she's also an author and actually educated as a playwright. So this is her, and this is Lisa Carnes.

many videos for going back like 10 years uh um she's a friend of mine we interact you know relatively infrequently but um I would actually consider her a teacher to me in some ways for sure uh and she's also an author and actually

Hello.

um I think in different countries with different accents they say differently okay oh and I also would like to introduce Khaleesi yeah Khaleesi okay so it's just telling off the neighbor yeah and she's going to be part of the story

Hello, welcome, welcome to the channel.

did you grow up uh and I'm actually curious about what were you like as a kid what were you like as a little girl what were you yeah are you interested in what was the world like for you yeah so

Thank you.

school with my imaginary animals and my mom had to like open the boots in my life of Marjorie horse would get out and I imaginary dog would get out or my imaginary fairy would get out oh my gosh I remember my dad he said

Yeah, did I say your last name correctly?

right like from a very young age yeah from a very young age I became a vegetarian at eight but I didn't know back then that was in the 80s what vegetarianism was so it wasn't like I was like Mom Dad I want to be a

Well, in England, we would say Cairns, but I think in different countries with different accents, they say it differently.

I am eating a fish and I think I was like reading my story like a story to my fish while eating fish fingers yeah and so it like slowly became like any animal I couldn't eat and then my mom employed

Okay. Oh, and I also would like to introduce Khaleesi.

veganism which I kind of go in and out of I've always been a vegetarian but I go in and out of veganism like I like sometimes follow it and sometimes less so yeah so that was so that and I

Yeah, Khaleesi.

building but my experience like prior to puberty was like I felt really lucky I did have problems but I just had this like sense of happiness or this sense this glow maybe a lot of children have that yeah just an immediately it's pretty

Okay, so it's just telling off the neighbor.

not doing school work and playing a lot outside and with my toys I had lots of toys and just yeah I used to really love that yeah so about 11 and then I think as I got to maybe like 10 11 like

Yeah, and she's going to be part of the story you tell today, probably, I think, because she kind of came at an important time in your life.

beginning to get I wasn't depressive but just wasn't contented wasn't happy yeah I can completely relate to that I think I've thought back on this and while man when I was a child like I was so empathic and I grew up in an environment

Yeah, maybe.

that I I didn't it didn't turn into like a personal experience of suffering but I was definitely picking it up but it is interesting when we become I think it's social awareness when we become socially aware like I saw when I was raising kids

Yeah, yeah, maybe.

and what they were doing and so forth it really does it's just like the the self um uh Consciousness raps yeah in a big way and now you're trying to maintain this external identity right and anyway I'm not sure if that's what you're

Okay, so let's just start with, just give us a little background on yourself. Like, where are you from? Where did you grow up? And I'm actually curious about what were you like as a kid? What were you like as a little girl? What were you? Yeah, are you interested? What was the world like for you?

watch children that they go through this period but they really change I also what coincided though when I turned when puberty came was I went through a lot of trauma and um and so that like also affected things but I think there would

Yeah, so I grew up in England. Mother English, father Scottish. And what was I like as a kid? I think I was super imaginative. I was thinking about this the other day. I remember I always used to go to school with my imaginary animals, and my mom had to open the boots in my life. My imaginary horse would get out, and my imaginary dog would get out, or my imaginary fairy would get out.

more than just vegan you were like um uh what is the term for it you you became an active activist essentially yeah if I told you that before yeah I did actually I don't know if I talk about that that often yeah and I did

Oh my gosh. I remember my dad said also that he had an imaginary friend until he was quite late in life. Yeah, so I think I was really creative. I really loved playing, making up games and stories and animals.

gunpoint in the West Bank yeah like oh yes um so I can't I can't I might have a really bad memory so I can't really remember a lot of the things I did but I would certainly remember being held up at

You had a love for animals, is that right? Like from a very young age?

um yeah uh particularly animal stuff but I did other protests um but animal stuff that were quite aggressive and yeah I remember you saying something to me almost verbatim probably but I'll tell you what it was a very short exchange

Yeah, from a very young age. I became a vegetarian at eight, but I didn't know back then, that was in the 80s, what vegetarianism was. So it wasn't like I was like, "Mom, Dad, I want to be a vegetarian." I was just like, I got fish. My mom bought me a fish, and I was sitting eating fish fingers looking at the fish, and then I was like, "Hang on, there is a problem here." There's conflicts in the brain. I am eating a fish, and I think I was like reading my story, like a story to my fish while eating fish fingers.

sort of like the anger and the inability to see the other side and you felt I remember you saying I felt so hopeless Lisa wanted to save the world but she couldn't do it yeah it was such a good

Yeah, and so it slowly became like any animal I couldn't eat. And then my mom employed a vegan cleaner, which I'm sure she regretted. So then I used to follow this queen around and ask her lots of questions about veganism. So I think by the age of 10 or 11, I was beginning on the track of veganism, which I kind of go in and out of. I've always been a vegetarian, but I go in and out of veganism, like I sometimes follow it and sometimes less so.

don't think on purpose like a stray bullet went through her throat and killed her and Pat in the West Bank in a refugee camp and um and it was like reported really weirdly like as if it was almost like

Yeah, so that was that. And I remember also being really, really happy as a child. Like, yeah, just feeling really lucky and really blessed. And I really liked, I had like a fantastic life. I can look back now and I can see there were issues building, but my experience prior to puberty was like I felt really lucky. I did have problems, but I just had this sense of happiness or this sense, this glow. Maybe a lot of children have that.

find peace in the flow you have to find it internally because it just goes on because then all the Israeli families will be traumatized and so they will be wanting Revenge because it's a unless you've got self-awareness it's a natural

Yeah, just an immediate, it's pretty natural for children, especially if they're in a safe, emotionally connected, loving environment. It's just natural for them to enjoy life. They're so simple and innocent, you know.

um like even now when you listen to people's arguments like if if two people fall out like narration is such a weird thing the way that we look at Stories the way we tell our stories like how they change with emotions but I

Yeah, I remember playing a lot, not doing school work, and playing a lot outside and with my toys. I had lots of toys and just, yeah, I used to really love that.

peaceful because it was just creating more and more hate in a way not saying that it shouldn't be done because what do you do in that situation when people are treating each other in such an awful way and have so much hate but you can't

Yeah, so about 11, and then I think as I got to maybe like 10, 11, things began to get more challenging for me. And I would say that I began to suffer. I suspect I suffered before that, but it's like when I really began to realize that I was suffering or feeling suffering or beginning to get, I wasn't depressive but just wasn't contented, wasn't happy.

a complex thing it's really about going inside and finding peace in yourself first you really have to do that like you can't yeah you can't force peace outside that's just War I'm I'm with you you know I I never got

Yeah, I can completely relate to that. I think I've thought back on this, and while, man, when I was a child, I was so empathic, and I grew up in an environment that was not emotionally connected and so forth. So I definitely felt the pain of my parents and people around me. I felt a lot of people's pain, but I was, I think I was still so porous and open that it didn't turn into like a personal experience of suffering, but I was definitely picking it up. But it is interesting when we become, I think it's social awareness, when we become socially aware. Like I saw when I was raising kids, I saw them go through this when they turned from being completely oriented to the family and what they're interested in. So all of a sudden, they were hyper-acutely aware of what everyone, all their peers thought of them and what they were doing and so forth. It really does, it's just like the self-consciousness wraps in a big way. And now you're trying to maintain this external identity, right? And anyway, I'm not sure if that's what you're referring to, but I remember that few-year period of it just being really rough to go through that.

it in the way people move and think and process reality and try to make themselves feel better I felt absolute hopelessness in it and I knew it I knew that's not the way that made me feel in a sense that made me feel worse because

Yeah, so that, that I experienced that myself, and I seem to recognize that in children as well. I don't have my own, but when I watch children, they go through this period, but they really change. I also, what coincided though when I turned, when puberty came, was I went through a lot of trauma. And so that also affected things, but I think there would have been like a movement into suffering without the trauma, but the trauma kind of like exacerbated things.

that's [ __ ] Grace the fact that that happened to me the fact that I felt that kind of suffering that kind of depth of suffering other people suffering my own like that seeing that The Human Condition is not going to get me out of

And yeah, man, I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that as well.

but these are rare exceptions but but the individual uh or the seeming individual has an opportunity to really look inside like you're talking about um now I'm curious when did you become like overtly interested in spirituality or Buddhism or how did that come about

Yeah, and I know at some point you became more than just vegan. You were like, what is the term for it? You became an active activist, essentially.

so I kind of had spiritual experiences when I was a teenager through theater and that's I think why I I fell in love with theater and storytelling um my mom used to take me to these musicals like have you ever seen Jesus cry

Yeah, if I told you that before.

like um this Focus or this energy or this excitement I think I used to have these waking up experiences in that like it just was so electrifying and I used to find that one of the most special moments in the plays was the silence

Yeah, I did actually. I don't know if I talk about that that often. And I did some really crazy things, like, yeah.

experiences with my mom and my mum was really into music so I used to go to a lot of concerts and yeah just really loved that and then also by myself I used to have spiritual experiences as I

I think you told me you laid down in front of a bulldozer.

Tantra I didn't know that and I'd imagine having the most perfect boyfriend or perfect partner and as I imagined it like I feel more and more loved and then eventually I would realize that something would happen where I'd realize that I'm

I did.

meditation meta meditation yeah yeah um so these sorts of these sort of things is what got me into Seattle and writing um and it also got me into Buddhism because when I first got introduced to it I could hear that silence that they

Yeah.

and I knew there was some truth in that um and the way that I got into it was a friend that I met at University she um she went to the British Center when she was like 15 with a friend and so when I

Well, I'm not quite in front of a bulldozer, but sort of. And like got held up at gunpoint in the West Bank.

deereuta the Riker from Canada the reuter and I'm not sure if I'm familiar I forget his last name and she took me to like a SAT sang of his and it was just like in silence and it was right in

Yeah, like, oh yes.

of yeah this kind of spiritual event so that was me yeah so two things came to me as you were talking about the theater experiences and the mystical experiences and so forth um one is obviously how you had

So I can't, I might have a really bad memory, so I can't really remember a lot of the things I did, but I would certainly remember being held up at gunpoint a couple of times and like being a blockage so that the Israeli army couldn't come towards those Palestinian children.

necessarily an Awakening in and of itself but opening a lens for people and I often encourage people to just feel into their life like where in your life have you felt this because you have I know you have right yeah was it when

Yeah, that was just so intense. So I did that, and I also did animal protests, and yeah, particularly animal stuff, but I did other protests, but animal stuff that were quite aggressive.

us breadcrumbs maybe to start looking inward you know yeah so cool um yeah yeah and so did you start practicing Buddhism at that time or any specific I've got a bit of an obsessive personality even though I've never named

And yeah, I remember you saying something to me almost verbatim probably, but I'll tell you what, it was a very short exchange, but I remember you saying when you were talking about going to the West Bank, and you were talking about going, and I remember you saying, I went there, and the more I was there, the more I realized both sides had this sort of like the anger and the inability to see the other side. And you felt, I remember you saying, I felt so hopeless. Lisa wanted to save the world, but she couldn't do it.

became like a friend of the Buddhist order that I was in where I had like these study classes once a week and then I went to extra classes at the weekend and then instantly I adopted like an hour minimum meditation a day I did a

Yeah, it was such a good lesson, but yeah. Like I remember one experience, which I might get this wrong because of my memory, but it was something along the lines of this. It was that there was a young girl killed, like, I don't think on purpose, like a stray bullet went through her throat and killed her in the West Bank in a refugee camp. And it was reported really weirdly, like as if it was almost like the Palestinian people's fault. And then a few days later, a cousin, blew her cousin blew herself up in front of Israeli soldiers and killed like a couple of Israeli soldiers. And I remember just realizing how hopeless it was, like that you ca—

Meditation Retreat settings where you did it feel really resonant with you or was it challenging to go to to sit and I think it was very painful for at the beginning part um I remember the first time or one of the

first times like it felt like my mind was like bouncing like it was like ping pong balls and just like sitting there for 15 minutes I was like this is before like we had handes and stuff or mobiles you call them yeah cell

phones um uh yeah and then it got easier and easier but I mean like immense pain I went through like when I did the 10 day ones the passing the 10 10 days one you know it'd be like you'd get to day

six and day seven it'd normally be like seven days of Agony like so you did 10 hours meditation a day and then suddenly there would just be a boom and you would have an opening but like I'm talking I

remember sitting there one time having an experience like I thought my legs were breaking so you weren't allowed to move you had to sit in the meditation posture uh I was like I can't do this I can't do this I felt like I was sweating

I felt my legs were breaking and then the bell went and I moved my legs and I was like oh they don't hurt at all that was all in my mind huh I can totally relate to this so I

did some zen zen session yeah yeah yeah and sasheen is seven days it's very traditionally structured it's Japanese uh Zen and it is it's just like that it's very rigid you can't move during the round so yeah the pain in your legs

gets exquisitely it's a pretty impressive like how much that starts to hurt after a while but I do remember exactly those experiences where my mind would just be I remember my like I thought would just be like stand up and walk out go leave

leave go to your car go you can just leave right now so just go just leave like this is horrible I can't stand it when's the dogging ring wins the Belgian ring and you're like three minutes into a round right and it's just torture in

the mind and then but but you do that for a while and then like it would exhaust itself and all of a sudden it was just dead quiet and like no pain like where did it go though was it here

what the [ __ ] is going on right it's so wild to just be in that sustained meditation environment yeah um yeah okay yeah so and then at some point you became interested in well I know you you went to India and

and sat and listened to Ramesh yeah Balsa car yeah and how was that is that in the this time frame or is that later on yeah so um when I first started the Buddhist group um quite quickly I met a teacher that

was into non-duality in the Buddhist group so this is like the beginning of the 2000s so the internet has started but it's not like spirituality had an infiltrate of it yet so it was still quite hard to find talks

and and get resources like it's still like the sending off in the post the CDs and tapes and getting them from the library um so this is a guy that I met he first of all gave me Eckhart Tolle's book I

think and then a book by uh REM mesh bolsika and then he introduced me to Tony Parsons I didn't know Tony Parsons and another teacher called Nathan Gale but he did it slowly but the problem was at the time the Buddhist group were very

close to non-jazzy so it caused a bit of conflict so I think I was in the Buddhist group for like three maybe three four years and then I had to leave they gave me an ultimatum like Buddhist group or

non-duality and I picked the non-diality and then I think a year after that I went to India to see Ramesh so after a year of leaving the Buddhist group so I would think I was 26.

at the time I went to India now was that before or after you were sitting in a Tony Parsons audience and that's after it was after didn't you have an experience or even a shift so like a Awakening even or something

listening to Tony Parsons had loads that there was like different ones that happened like one time after listening to Tony Parsons I had a car crash and then had an Awakening we got squashed by a lorry um you say you had an Awakening what does

that mean like what it meant for me was I got totally shifted out of the mind and just into a spaciousness that a silent spaciousness but not maybe totally but like a lot like the personality character died so it was

like to me I would call it like an expansion into a spaciousness so it's like where my sense of being me feels quite big and spacious and empty and light it doesn't feel like it's leases or contained to the body

and that happened um like quite far away from home so it took like five hours to be driven back with the car being towed back to home and just just like I couldn't stop I mean I saw I was in shock as well but I

couldn't stop laughing like everything was so funny I'd just written off my dad's Mercedes okay so so this happened like as you crashed the car or kind of like wow yeah and I don't know how I don't know how I

managed to get out of it alive because it wasn't actually my fault like so I say I wrote off my dad's it was actually the Lorry he just um he was a Polish driver in England drives on a different

side from Mainland Europe and so they have a bad blind spot my dad said to me afterwards you shouldn't have ever sat next to him and you realized he was polish but we were like kind of in traffic we were like 60 miles per hour

and um I was trying to get past him and then he didn't see me so he just came out and I don't know how I managed to get to the other side of the road without the other cars coming into me because there was

that moment where I was like I wasn't scared of being killed by him because he'd done my damage my car was all damaged and squished on the passenger side I think it was the passenger side and um I just remember being like the cars

behind you know like what's how are the cars behind gonna stop when there's like this amount of traffic but I managed to get the car but I just kind of blanked a bit this but I can't remember I just

managed to get it to the side of the road so it was like one of those and just felt totally in peace and you know it was just like when you felt when you felt that peace or that something Falling Away whatever

it is were you were you relating that to Buddhism or what Buddha was talking about or Awakening or was it just kind of like what the heck oh you were so you were yeah but afterwards not in the

moment in the moment you're just like really in it and you you're not really thinking about it but afterwards I did um but also more when I had a big Awakening later I looked back on these experience and was like ah there it was

like happening all the time there was another time with Tony Parsons where this is very naughty what Lisa did she took LSD and then went to see Tony foreign good for you I like it completely legal League England I'm fine

oh yeah someone put on my video I just read a comment that's like I watched your video over and over and over on a high dose THC last night and I started I don't have a they're like I don't have

any sense of space anymore there's I it's the kind of it's kind of terrifying because there's no self anywhere and it's all one thing and you know and I'm like man okay well I didn't say to do that but I can't stop you yeah yeah I'm

not recommending this to anyone right it's very stupid I was 25 or 26 and I did it um especially going through London like yeah because you do stuff in London and I sat at the back and I was SAT but in front of a radiator

and um and there was like no chairs in front of me so it's like the direct view to Tony and what happens to me when I'm doing something like that is I lose the ability to think about the situation and

I kind of trip quite a lot some people it's different so I kept sitting there thinking I was on fire but I didn't have the ability to like think oh it's a radiator or I should move or anything so

I'd just be like I'm on fire I wasn't scared or anything I was just like I am on fire and I couldn't really think about that and then Tony kept going to me because I was mostly kept me like

and so it's like this like Goblin or like fire devil it was like I was just like I'm on fire it wasn't bad like it sounds bad I was like really I think in it like just really in the momentary perception of

what was happening but I was really too hot because the radiator was behind me yeah yeah so that was like one I mean I had some amazing experiences going to see Tony like that's really easy yeah he's a

very very direct pointer yeah yeah yeah and I can't think of any at the moment but I have like I had I had memory problems before but since this big Awakening happened 10 years ago my memory is like shocking and it just

still gets further and further and it gets fuddled and confused I might have memory issues we never know yeah I can relate to that it's it's fascinating especially going through medical training because I find that I remember what I really need to remember but I

don't remember to remember and I and when some often what happens is someone will ask something you remember you said this three days ago and I'm literally like completely blank I have no idea I can't even construct that reality I'm

like okay yeah I probably said that or you know it but but it doesn't mean I never remember because sometimes a memory will come but it's like there's no one creating that memory or not creating it's just there or it's not

it's so funny so this definitely affects your memory but I find I find people generally adjust but sometimes you have to like set timers and like literally adjust in in practical ways yeah yeah what so what was it like to sit and

listen to Ramesh that you did that for a good amount of time yeah um yeah it was really amazing um really beautiful I really special memories about that time um it was and not just the listening to Ramesh being in Mumbai by myself

as well because you know I'm 26 it's kind of like the first time that I've been away from my friends what I know my parents you know for long periods of time I went to University but it's still like an hour

and a half or two hours drive from my home from my parents home um and I've been on holiday but like being away for that amount of time like in such a different culture and then listening to ramesh's talks every day

and being with the group that we're going to the talks I think it was really that profound experience and yeah it took a while for me to soften to Ramesh like when I first went there was a bit of resistance to like really fall

in love with him like uh yeah that it wasn't at first I remember being a little like yeah maybe nervousness but it was such a small group as well like on the first day he was like come and talk to me and

sit on the med chair and I was like no no yeah he I think he was a student of Misa guardata I believe maybe yeah he was his translator ah okay yeah yeah so he wasn't as well sure and he's spoken that way and that

was his sort of style of pointing is very direct and um like when I went to see him he wasn't so direct anymore he was speaking more he would call the happiness about happiness and the flow of life so he

would still talk about Consciousness but then he would I kind of like it like he would then like so if somebody came in and said I'm Consciousness he'd be like no you're not you're the ego like so he was kind of

trying to decipher between like this personality structure around this no thingness the emptiness or the spaciousness um so he was speaking more about the person and happiness and the effects of the recognition in the person by the time I

would see him I think years before that he was more like Mr gaddatta and more about Consciousness and the I am yeah yeah so um at what point did you move to Australia so after I've been going to Ramesh for a

while I met my next boyfriend I was single at that time when I was there and then I met my boyfriend Roger and um we didn't meet at ramesh's talks we actually met at our show's ashram and Puna and then we didn't go to his talks

while we were in India and then we kind of got together and I went to Australia and then I think like six months later um four or five months later I can't remember the timeline um we went to see Ramesh together so we

flew from Australia to India to see him and he was he worked out that we were together and he knew us both separately from different times we've been there and he was like pointing to me and he goes if

you want to wake up you have to listen to everything that Roger says oh my God foreign but because of this OC not OCB this obsessive like I fixate on things like so when I'm gonna do something or when I

like something like the vegetarian veganism it's like I'd follow this lady around finding out everything about veganism I did I listened to Roger for three years like hours and hours like sometimes we would talk like five hours a day

um like I was obsessive I did it exactly what I was told which is quite crazy I mean I had to be a little bit cuckoo to do that yeah well it worked out I mean at the right place right situation right

conditions you know I look back and I'm I look back and I'm like what 27 year old young woman does that type of thing yeah yeah like an Indian guy like that I barely know I'd just be just talks it's like

listen to everything your boyfriend says Roger's just like yes yeah that's right that's right foreign so he just he just talked non-duality to you like every day yeah but he would recall it non-diality he wasn't into calling it that

um he would call it happiness in daily life and um and he was he was just starting being a teacher so I was like his first student and um and it was just really me and there was two other people

our neighbors they used to come around and sometimes listen to Roger talk but it was just kind of me and I think sometimes that he was going through this phase where he was maybe also learning how to speak and how to articulate it and going

through a process himself so I think like I got all of that like the three years as he evolved so he evolved and changed as I was there as well yeah yeah and so at some point I know you're I I you don't mind I'm

leading down this story path right because I kind of I kind of remember some of the details but at some point you ended up in southeast Asia or yeah Bali yeah Bali okay yeah and was it just on a

holiday vacation or well no I got dumped by Roger okay after three years of of this and like so I was quite young obviously and I'd left my whole life in England so I'd gone to this whole new

life and it was like being in a monastery for three years so we lived in the mirror middle of what they called the bush or what we would call the forest um and um and I was like really remote

we used to go I used to see my mom and dad they would even come over or go to the UK and we'd see the neighbors and we'd go to India once or twice a year but apart from that

was very much like you know how the karate kid was like wax on wax off wax on I did that for three years but it was raking leaves because you lived in the bush and all the fires you have to like constantly be breaking

the leaves off the property and it was a huge property so I raked Leafs for three years and um listened to him and was totally into this life we also had two dogs and then he just woke up one day

and was like um it's over I think it's time for you to leave I was like really shocked I didn't I really didn't expect it um I was also relieved as well like um it was like one part of me that wanted

to go because it's like a lot that I did um and I was like really not on the internet like I didn't really know the new Facebook and YouTube that had come up in those three years you know like

2007 or eight till 2011. like life had changed a lot and I've been really remote and um and yeah he asked me to leave and his version was and I'm totally I love it that he says this his version was it's

like when the teacher says or he says the day that he asked me to leave was he turned over his calendar and it says when the student is ready the teacher will ask them to leave and then he was

like I think you need to leave so there was like after three years I couldn't go back to the UK how could I relate to my friends or to my family anymore like what was I gonna do with this body like

I was so different to three years prior like people can't understand what that's like removing yourself from your whole everything you know your whole life um I'd given up writing I'd given up everything like really become like a monk or a nun

so then Bali was close by it was like um a cheap holiday dinner destination like Spain or something used to be when I was growing up so I just decided it's three hours flight to fly over there for a

month and just kind of like be with myself and work out what to do next and just feel my feelings about like leaving this life I would lose my visa for Australia like I my partner my home my dogs

and um and my friends I've made two friends there um and yeah I was there for like a week I think and then I had like a massive mind-blowing bang shift like um okay before we go into that because this is

like I really want to hear about this I just want to point out again every interview I do is geared toward anyone listening to this who's like starting to turn toward that inner prompting I just want to point out you know first of all

I love this I love all the texture of the story and all the crazy twists and turns and as you point out along the way like some of it is like what the [ __ ] like why would someone do that you know

and um but what I feel through it is you this whole time we're really committed at the Heart level to call it what you want truth Living Truth really sorting out the the suffering thing whatever it is that's obvious to

me and you know this will look different for everyone it just does but but you might find yourself in some really crazy situations strange situations surprising circumstances but man the willingness to just turn toward that mystery at the level of heart and even

mind in all of it and and it's so powerful and that I can just feel how this all culminated in yeah this that we're yeah we're talking about here yeah um and the bits I missed out in the

three years like um it wasn't just intense being cut off and everything I also went through some heaven and Hells in that Forest like you know being that still and having everything taken away from you you haven't got anything left

to blame for your unhappiness so you're kind of left with your unhappiness and your state of mind and I had some real Hells like real Hells like I mean like Madness Hells and I also had some like um Heavens like

it was Paradise like more heavens and I did Hells but sometimes when the hells came it was like really like um yeah awful and yeah so it was like such an intense experience but I really got used to being okay with everything

like after I left the forest it was like no internal state could frighten me in a way anymore even if it was like intense fear like that couldn't frighten me it was like there was nothing there was nothing left which

could be worse than what I'd already experienced because it was like like internally like not I hadn't experienced War but internally experience like there was no feeling that could have been worse than that so I wasn't scared of my

feelings anymore and I wasn't scared of my madness or my not miners in like Lisa's more mad than everybody I kind of think that the human race has a pensity towards Madness because of thinking but like our delusions and our ideas about

the world yeah man what a what an amazing set of circumstances life is just ingenious to put you yeah there yeah and what it was really compassionate with it all as well that was very helpful yeah and those

Hells I want to you know reiterate I talk about this a lot like you going through this process however it goes for you however you need to go through it you will encounter things that you can't really be fully prepared for you're

gonna experience very intense stuff uh inwardly and see things you you can never thought were there actually and uh and and the Dark Knights of the Soul are a real thing but they are really experiential ultimately they're in the

realm of experience and they they can come and go but to try to use spirituality to avoid that to avoid existential fear and Terror you're selling yourself a bill of goods because you're going to have to face it you have

to face that shadow and go completely into it right to come out the other side in a sense yeah and so anyway so yeah it's the time I got into Bali I wasn't scared of myself anymore like I wasn't scared of my

feelings like I wasn't trying to run away or bypass my feelings I was like really that's important I mean that that's thorough authenticity through uh congruence with whatever's happening all the emotional landscape and so forth is but to me that just even outside of any

spiritual spectrum that is true maturity in the emotion Spectrum in the emotion body if you can get if any human can can really live that way however they get there um your your propensity to to cause violence to yourself and others is

dramatically reduced it's not impossible but you know um but it would be you know then we then we get into identity stuff right so um what what happened in Bali what was the so it started like a few days before the

big shift is I kept having these experiences a little like I was falling out of myself and I could relate it to feeling like a little stoned or something and it kept feeling like the world was vibrating or something

but um I didn't really think much about it because I'd had so many weird things as you know and Roger was a stickler for saying you know it's experience it's experience there's just like yeah it's experience um it's all these kind of weird things

were happening it was building but I didn't really know it and then I kind of Roger was very much like in every given moment exactly what you feel like doing which is a dangerous statement if it's not fully understood

and so I walked past this um this Angel healer and um because I'm not really I've never I don't think at that point I'd ever been to an age Angel healer I don't even know what that was and it was like really spiritual and

white and all these things going on and I just found myself going into the spiritual the angel healer and like he did a a reading and he was like you're going to be a messenger of God and I was like well I really don't see

that happening like Roger had always said I will never teach non-duality and I was like you know and I still suffer and I was like that's not gonna happen he says your teach you'll teach it by kissing people on the forehead and I was

like oh okay but I thought it was kind of sweet and I went away feeling like really like oh that's really nice to say that and that that was like really like touched by it and um and yeah I just had a really nice

feeling and then I think it was the next day or a day or two after that I went out for breakfast and was in a [ __ ] it mood and um and decided to have like banana fritters and ice cream for

breakfast sounds good to me and I was still sitting there like filling the cake hole and um and then I started thinking wow I didn't remember if it was a waitress now or the room but started thinking like God a

waitress is so beautiful or the room is so beautiful it's like an outside area I mean Bali is amazing so wow I didn't notice how beautiful that waitress was and and then I would be like wow I didn't realize how beautiful the wall

was wow the floor the table and I didn't have any cognitive realization that I was having an experience I really thought that everything was insanely beautiful and I just hadn't noticed you know because I was like wow like and everything just was

becoming more and more beautiful it was like sparkling at the seams and then it felt like my consciousness so not Lisa's Consciousness but this like empty looking which had been recognized many times before and I I'd recognized and had experiences but it

felt like this Consciousness that's totally impersonal and the sense of I am which is really impersonal kind of like began to go forward like in slow motion like foreign and then they just sort of went forward and forwards and forwards it felt like I

was getting like really big like my sense of being me my Essence not Lisa the character my Essence was getting like really big and I still had no sense I was having experience experience I couldn't think something's happening I

was just like and then it got bigger and bigger and bigger until it disappeared into everything and then I walked around really like I was like um like tripping for a while like I couldn't perceive me at all or

other so I couldn't I don't know thinking had stopped I don't think so maybe I couldn't think to think has thinking stuff but um I just was like I had no sense of me or the other person at all like nothing so

I had no sense of what was going on so I was kind of like um like in a really it's a non-functional state really and it could be quite dangerous but luckily it wasn't like because I I started walking around like I left the

restaurant I managed to pay I think I walked out without paying I don't know and um and I remember like this person started laughing and I was like yeah it's really funny level so much love and Bliss and I was like

and then at some point I realized that he wasn't well like he was yeah like there was something not right with him and that I was like there was but I didn't really realize it but I just realized though okay I have to stop

doing this now and sort of moved away and that I couldn't cross the road I couldn't work out where I was in comparison to these moving cars like it was really an intense experience I managed to um get back I don't know what I did

actually but at some point oh I came across a dying dog and was just like this is the most beautiful thing there is like it was I never I I'd never seen death in this way it was just so

beautiful such a strong experience and then I managed to get home and you know like over the next months in Bali it was kind of like a some form of processing it but also slipping back into this like really extreme State you

can't live from that state that was in that you'd need a caretaker like I was really not functional it's amazing that I managed to I was by myself in barley survive and um and there was like uh the mind coming

trying to understand what happened like this is not what key people talk about like I didn't expect this like it was like it's like how does this fit in like this is unexpected and then like just ecstasy just like

so much love and ecstasy and and the world would shake it felt like the world was quivering and yeah just like really had these like extreme spiritual experiences but they were experiences it's not like the final place but it kind of blasted a hole in

this and since then like the experience has been profoundly different it was like I feel if that hadn't happened to me I would have had most would be a hard life and that completely changed my um this yeah

yeah with that was there was there um a sort of very fundamental existential not necessarily fear but like a sort of disappointment that there's that everything you thought was anything is just completely not even there or not true not

um I had no I don't think there was disappointment there was like odd feelings like I don't feel grateful like that sounds like a bit odd but it was like odd feelings like no gratitude there was actually sometimes

intense fear um but I also I think my thinking was really reduced so I can't really remember it because we need thoughts to help us remember things so there was like all types of experience but it really um what's the disappointment

yeah I hear I hear this sometimes from people who move through this specific perceptual filter where there's literally that essentially when there's no subject or object anymore at all and the environment is just the environment and there's no one in it and there's no

one outside of it either it's just yeah that kind of thing and it sometimes the what I see sometimes is people will touch into it and then somehow I don't they don't actually back out of it but it's just not stable and and what their

mind or their ego says is holy [ __ ] like if I go there I'm gone like there's no yeah that kind of thing yeah no I think I was because I'd just been through so much in the forest of Roger like I think

I was kind of okay with that yeah um and I mean the word like um cognitive functioning issues that I found came with it like I remember trying to say to a few people you know you might have to look after my body at

some point but I don't think I was really scared about that like I I think I would think I might stop being able to function completely but I still want to manage to go through it and carry on functioning

functioning yeah yeah so it wasn't too too much there was a there was some fear but it wasn't um yeah it wasn't too much it sounds a bit like maybe or maybe not some like Kundalini energetic experiences with it the shaking and did

you have like involuntary body movements or any of that crazy stuff I did when I was in the forest with Roger um yeah most probably I did um yeah it was most probably massive Kundalini stuff happening as well yeah

yeah and when you left Bali was that where you met Khaleesi by the way no that was a year later in Thailand I met her oh okay all right so what did you do when you left when you left Bali in this

non-state this time this isn't a reversible I assume this never went away it didn't it didn't go away but what happened was I um integrated it more into the character so yeah like the character and there was still more trauma and stuff in the body

it wasn't like Lisa was totally fixed or stuff like that but it was like a integration like how do you live this like a like um yeah yeah so I went back to Australia after that because Roger was then going

away and so I was then going to go back and look after the dogs and then kind of like work out all my visas and everything and um and yeah that was my next thing and I tried to tell Roger about it but he was

totally not interested I haven't told anyone I was just like well I'll just tell Roger because I can't tell my friends I can't tell my mom I can't tell anyone so I tried to tell Roger and he was just like cut me

off before I even managed to get out I was like this this is really uh and um yeah so that didn't go very fast so it just like really went through all this like really intense stuff with really no one to

speak about it with and it was kind of just it was 2011 so it was just kind of prior to this all taking off on YouTube or if it was on YouTube I wasn't aware of it you know like like finding

Kundalini teachers or or anything yeah so there are a handful of your very early videos that I and I know at least one of them you're in Australia I think I think it and for them they're really good and I I pass them around sometimes

or I send them to people the one about death is very very good and the transmission I mean you to me you transmit all the time like I I just when you I just I'm not even I can't even

explain it but but those videos are really powerful they're and and part of it maybe is because of the freshness of that yeah totally the absolutely wonder that you're in you know so anyway anyone watching this check those out you can look at your

they're on your YouTube channel and they're like the oldest videos but they're quite powerful um yeah and so what did you have any thought of like what next am I how did you become how did you start talking

about it well then so life is just so interesting it's a different play different plays so our friend you know I said there were two other students our next door neighbor like one of them had a brain tumor for nine years and then it

got activated again so he went into dying and I was working but because I was only working part-time I ended up being his driver because he still had a business and was working even though his body and brain like his body was beginning to not

function he couldn't drive and he was losing senses and he sort of died over six months period so then I couldn't really leave Australia or make any plans because I was kind of in involved very much with that process

and that's how I began talking so I began talking to him so we would have these mad Journeys because he was like having his brain tumor which was like growing into his brain and so his functioning was stopping and then I was

off my head like this first period I was like off my head it felt like I was permanently stoned so you had like off their head off their head driving around Australia and the TR he had like a big massive truck I'm

driving [Laughter] going to all his building sites he was a builder and helping and like yeah doing different errands for them and yeah like so when when we were in the truck we began to um talk and I began to tell him about what had

happened so he was the first person I told um and he'd sort of known me over the years you know with Roger with her you know quite a close Bond through the four of us yeah so that's how I began talking

you were a bit of a hospice person there it sounds like with him you know yeah like what an amazing person to be around when you're dying to be honest like yeah well yeah I don't think of it from that

perspective from my perspective because I was watching him it's like it felt like a real blessing here because because it was like a brain tumor have you ever seen someone pass with a brain tumor I'm sure from yeah so

it just slowly takes away your functioning so it's like I'm not this I'm not this I'm not this like so he you know like it's really like a gradual thing like you lose the movement of the arm or the sensations in your finger and

it's like such a surrender process that he has to go through and it was a really beautiful it's really painful sometimes and really beautiful on other times like um that experience with him yeah yeah wow so how so he encouraged me to record the

talks and then put them on YouTube so or Facebook it was I can't remember and then I just put up one video and then it just got sent rounds it did the rounds you know it got like loads and

loads of shares yeah and that's yeah that's how that started it was a little bit surprising for all of us right including Roger foreign students and then suddenly I had like 2 000.

it's amazing how it happens isn't it yeah I love it you know to use a Buddhist term like the Dharma wheel turning does whatever it wants you know it's yeah it's it's amazing it's amazing um when you started working more directly

with people with this or whatever you're talking about when you talk to people um I guess I'm curious about a few things one is um how did you approach that did you have any method whatsoever or was it just

completely organic as far as working one-on-one with somebody answering questions about non-duality or their experience or emotion Etc so in my first years of speaking it was just really about like um just sitting there and speaking from that empty space

and I think that's maybe why the beginning talks like they feel like they have so much transmission so I wasn't going off of that and it just wanted to express like extreme non-duality and it was like really joyful and it was

it just very simple I think in a way but complex also for people that didn't know the subject and then as I worked more I I began to realize that um that really failed some people like I would be honest like I came across

suicides not that went to my talks necessarily but like they'd come to my talks online and I knew particularly in young men um yeah like that it killed themselves and I began to see lots of problems with speaking about it really directly in the

sense that if it's misunderstood it's a disaster yeah if it's taken as a meditation so that's what I was think I was doing is like I was trying to give that experience of the meditation but like transmission or like I was just

like going very directly into it but if that's not heard and it's heard from a mind perspective and you use it to improve your life it's an absolute disaster and I found that people would come using it as an ex or looking for an

excuse to kill themselves or looking for an excuse to escape and this was you know like so to me if I were to say everything's meaningless like my heart radiates like I was saying this is my partner I can't remember what we were talking

about but I was like yeah it just doesn't matter it's all meaningless like I mean like imagine if you were gonna die and you knew you were gonna die in a year's time like who gives a [ __ ] yeah I

just I just love that like saying those types of things but um as I got into teaching more and more I realized that this was problematic yeah it was that was heartbreaking like that yeah that was yeah like watching that and watching

people take it the wrong way that really hurt yeah yeah you know there's such a a beauty in coming from coming from that emptiness and then finding that emptiness finding that emptiness in every form there is including the form called

delusion the form called I'm a human being suffering and being able to be completely mind identified suffering with that human being without having to be anything in the absolute that kind of flexibility that kind of it's a different level of transmission

in my opinion and um meeting somebody 100 wherever they are with absolute vulnerability in the human Spectrum and not compromising the absolute truth either because they're not two is so that's that's where the rubber really meets the road and I've noticed you've

I've noticed you evolve over the years with that yeah very very beautiful very beautifully yeah um the absolute transmission comes through it doesn't matter it does you don't you don't have to even talk about it directly when you live it you know

the relative is the absolute and it comes through and the relative too and it's so it's so beautiful yeah um and but in that I had to learn this body had to learn more about psychology so I had to at that point I had to begin to

understand why people were coming to these talks and doing that so then in about 2016 after quite a few stabs from this what I just experienced like um yeah just really being confronted whether it was just not working for certain people

I really got on my lease or obsessiveness and got obsessed with psychology and really studied psychology like really like um went into it and understood like Western psychology and personality disorders and um mental illnesses like I had some

knowledge of it before but really went into all different therapies and Trauma work I'm not an expert in it like I'm not saying I teach that but just so I could understand like what western perspective was on the personality

structure in order for me to be able to speak to people better and um understand why people are presenting certain behaviors Dynamics so but I got obsessed and I still do it like I'm still obsessed a bit with psychology I haven't quite

finished my doctor's degree in Psychology my homemade doctor's degree there's a there's really good information accessible on the internet there's videos by people who are absolute experts in personality disorders that teach other therapists about personality disorders you can

learn a lot if you really want to and I just want to tell you like when I look at people who teach this transmit work with people waking up however you want to say that um the ones that have taken up that

investigation however they have in Psychology not only and they have to do it themselves too you have to see your own psychology you have to go through your own emotion stuff you have to know it and and you have to know it yeah to

know the various patterns that mind identification functions out of and so forth like that is really really critical in the in the teachers I see that I consider really really really really good like for I'll give you an

example audio Shanti I've been I met him I've been to his Retreats the way he teaches the way he points like wherever someone is with as soon as they open their mouth he's right there with them he doesn't take it to the absolute every

time if that's not and he intuitively knows it but it's interesting because he said before his his huge shift um while he was in this process he said he read like 200 books on psychology he's like I didn't even know why I was

reading them but I was reading them yeah yeah and I I feel the same way like I'm I'm fascinated with the problem the world of Mind identification the problem Being Human the life of quiet desperation like this is what we see around us all the time if

we actually look and open our hearts to people that there's a lot of a lot of suffering heavy duty suffering and um knowing the mechanism of it how it works the and and being willing to to just meet someone where they are and not

forcing them into an absolute experience or pushing them to wake up because I'm uncomfortable because I can't not feel what you feel you know that that kind of work to me is so so important and um to be able to just serve whomever that's

right there in front of me um by being exactly who and what they are right now and not needing to change it at all and then it finds its way it finds its way to truth somehow I don't

know how yeah but um but yeah some people they need they just need support too you know emotional support and they need to feel okay they need validation like Osho even said if you want to eliminate your ego you got to have a

strong ego first so some people don't even have that they just they have such a um disruptive sense of self uh um personhood from that upbringing and all that that's not the kind of person you want to like shoot into the absolute or

talk about no self constantly but it's just too disruptive for them yeah um yeah yeah anyway just wanted to reflect on that because that's an area I feel strongly about yeah more and more and more people who come on YouTube now

speaking with those exact exact language you know there's no self there's no one to do anything the characters you know all of it you know um so anyway yeah and I mean I really I really love it but I also can see just

so much dysfunction as well like in in that world I mean I received the most abuse online when I was speaking more absolutely but I mean that the community is like a lot of unconscious stuff happening in it

it does but you know what's so beautiful about that is even though it's an unconscious it's coming from unconsciousness and that Rage that's coming towards you is from unconsciousness it's also the absolute it's also Buddha nature just going you

need to keep tuning in yourself you know there's still even though there's no there's no person you can reflect back to anymore and there isn't uh there's still something in the relative that can they can learn from this that can evolve

that can essentially love more and loving more means loving someone exactly where they are and exactly who they are not needing to to wake them up or change them and then the Awakening is it happens naturally you know as night

follows day it's a natural cycle and it happens in a way that they can integrate you know it's just so beautiful yeah yeah and I'm with you I love that I love that transmission as well um and sometimes I say it's not wrong it's

not wrong it's just not always 100 right depending on the person listening to it yeah it's important yeah disaster for certain people like for me yeah it just it wasn't I mean I'm sure it was a disaster well

not a disaster but I'm sure it did create yeah dysfunction in my personality but somehow you know with the Buddhist stuff and I also went to therapy as well when I was in my teens and in my 20s I didn't

talk about that and Roger taught um somatic therapy like um he didn't teach her he wasn't skilled in it but he taught the somatic therapy that I did yeah so there was some part of me that didn't have that but you have seen some

terrible effects on people from using non-duality like extreme non-diality to try to heal the person and in they already like you say they already have a very weak sense of self so when they hear there is no self that kind of

resonates but it's resonating in the darkness or it's resonating in a cage yeah yeah and I think one of the personality traits that can be that this becomes problematic for are people who are really avoidant like and dissociate people who

dissociate um they need to do integration work first actually they need to do emotion work and all that to start to feel it's they need validation you know as a human being that you're okay and your emotions actually matter and you know then once

you have that more uh more um solid sense of self as a physiologic and being then then you can really start to dig in and into identity structures and all that I think but um yeah yeah do you have I I this is kind of abrupt

to bring it up now but I was actually curious because someone just emailed me um looking for a teacher do you still do one-on-one or you have availability for that silly books okay you're booked okay yeah I don't do so many like I I don't

um because I do writing most of the time so it's I only do a few a week but yeah just fully book with with um weighting this but they can join like a small group that I do so I do the zoom groups

every so often where it's just like 10 or 20 people and then it's more intimate and it's not shared it's not recorded So yeah you can great be more vulnerable very cool and also you still do one uh no why

don't you do live lives where people can either message a question in or even even get on Skype right on occasion and ask questions yeah I do that most Sundays yeah for years yeah but no I don't do it's

such a fixed time table so you have to subscribe to the website uh to the YouTube channel to know when I go live it's not so fixed the times it used to be Sunday at four o'clock or Sunday at

six o'clock and now I kind of do it most Sundays but I've kind of sometimes do Saturdays I change the time a bit yeah yeah so now one last question I have for you do you you do you have any advice or what would

you say to somebody listening to this that says as crazy as that thing that happened to Lisa sounds that's where I'm going I want to I mean I know many people who are like that's what I'm interested in

um I I'm I'm really interested in taking this to the depths or taking it as far as it goes what what do you what would you tell somebody like that or that that's hooked up that way there's so many

different ways that you could see it like if that's the way it's going to go that's the way it's going to go but that's what's going to appear but then cautionary advice would be to to do what you say in the sense of

making sure that you've got like a stable ego first because otherwise you're gonna implode you're gonna get attracted to destructive situations so make sure the ego is is stable and then it's um spirit here that's really um Ramesh used to say you know you're in

the Tiger's mouth it's like once you start in this subject like can you really stop like so somebody said to me the other day like um you know they were finding it harder to relate to people in society

and they were like you know what if I keep going down this path you know will I be able to still relate you know I mean like with everyday people like like relate and be able to speak to them and

they were implying that you know it's a bad thing and I was I was I kind of shrugged and I was like but can you ever go back in raising the information that you've got out of your mind now like can

you stop this like it's like once you get into this it's like it's gonna even if you think okay I'm gonna stop this the next year the thoughts are still going to nag at you like who am I why am I alive I am gonna

die hang on I'm gonna die this is problematic we need to think about something here ADI Shanti has a beautiful thing he said about this that he says you know it's like you find a Celestial body in the

universe like this beautiful massive Celestial body and you're so like wow I want to get I want to get closer to that you know and you start getting closer and closer and then you cross the Event Horizon where you can't turn around

anymore and you feel the insanely massive gravitational pull of this thing is sucking you [ __ ] molecule from molecule and identity structure from Identity structure and you know there's no way out that's when you know existential Terror yeah

but it's okay yeah it turns out it turns out okay yeah I mean it kind of I feel like it saved my life I feel like um you know because of the trauma that I had in my teens I I don't think um

I think my life would have been very difficult is that oh wait it's that energetical shift hadn't happened because I think it helped even though I'd worked through a lot of stuff and became a piece of things that

sort of like helped shallow it out or like make it less intense and just made everything easier yeah yeah and those tragedies you know traumas and so forth is you would never wish him on the you know anyone but but you know

everybody has some version of a trauma or tragedy in their life a loss of a loved one loss of a parent child spouse sibling um major major health challenges where it's going to shorten your life you know and and I always kind of say to people

you know these are uh these eventualities when they come like they are opportunities too to open to open to something that's beyond suffering you know and um again and you don't seek them out but if if that if

you are that person has had a trauma that's had a challenging thing like don't convince yourself that that's actually stopping you from from realizing your true nature or waking up or it may actually be you know um one of the impetus impati I don't

know yeah to actually help the process get going and stuff so yeah yeah so well thank you so I want to say one other thing to anyone listening and I don't know why I'm inclined to say it but I just feel like I'm going to say it

so I'm going to say it um the interesting thing about you that that I noticed is when I first saw you on the internet and I saw your videos and I think I interacted with you on a live one time or something

um and I was like I I got to meet this person you know um and I'm the kind of person will do that I've went out and met I met adishanti and gangadi and different people um but the fascinating thing about you

just from my own experience uh is your your ability to to transmit and point and and now even more your ability with with um with like really knowing people and knowing Psych the psychological uh structures and so forth

um is is really potent it's obvious to me it's obvious online but there's a totally different thing about when I'm when I was like physically around you like it was completely different it was energetic and I don't even know what it

was it's the way you move it's just something so simple but is literally energetic so to be around somebody who has found themselves as the entire environment suddenly and the sense of self is just nowhere to be found because there's only

the environment functioning and self-responsing self-responding and all that you don't just feel it in that person you feel it in the environment the the signature of Truth is powerful and transmission is is powerful you know and so um so

I I just I just think it is helpful to um to go out to do retreats to to to you know make some effort in your life if you're interested in this and and you're working on it to find a teacher like you

know get in contact with somebody that you that you resonate with and Trust not a weirdo but someone like that because the that direct interaction is really actually quite powerful yeah you know it's one thing to listen to someone

online but when they're in your energetic space they're they're they're affecting you whether they like it or not or know it or not and whether you like it or not and you know like you said with Roger a lot of that was

probably going on there too so anyway I just want to say like in person it was a totally different experience of meeting you um you're first of all you were really quiet and I thought that was so cool

because I don't know why I wouldn't have thought you were quiet because you talk online of course you know but you were generally pretty quiet and stuff but just energetically it was completely obvious to me like the whole room was

completely empty like literally like in a good way like it just felt that way and um uh so anyway I don't know why I felt like saying that but anyone listening might be interested in so yeah nice and also I want to say

um I think I told you this when I met you was um when you said that Lisa tried to save the world but couldn't do it and ultimately Lisa in one sense went away um that that's really the ultimate

sacrifice and that sacrifice is a sacrifice of compassion it doesn't there's nothing there's no one there that can take credit for it I already know that it's just how it's just how it is but but it's true it's the truth and

and I want to just acknowledge that that what you're doing for the world you know uh what you're doing for people who come in contact with you uh is in my my opinion and it's not just an opinion

it's an energetic knowing is the the highest thing I I see a human can do it's it's amazing to me and I'm just glad you're there and um and the people have that have access to you oh nice

yeah thanks for saying that yeah you're welcome I kind of forget about all these these types of things like it's you know what it's like it's like you're so into what's happening you kind of forget the way it affects or how

it's being perceived I totally get that you know it's funny with writing the book I would write like a chapter and I had a friend that just a a friend from years ago and I would send them like a chapter you know and then I

would forget to write it for three months I wouldn't even wouldn't even cross my mind I'd just be doing whatever I'm doing you know in my yard breaking leaves doing all the things I'd like to do and he'd be like dude I needed the

next chapter you know oh thank you for letting reminding me to write the next chapter he's like yeah it was so powerful I'm like oh yeah okay that's right it's a you know I forget that the stuff even can have effects on people

because it in one sense it's totally mundane it's just what's happening it's just Simplicity innocence it's uh you know the rock is as much teacher as I am this guy my teachers are my teachers are everything everywhere all the time you

know and it's so beautiful it's uh it's so simple but um but yeah it's it's so weird because like self-reflection doesn't doesn't really function like that so yeah anyway yeah yeah cool all right well thank you so much for your time I'm sure our viewers

are going to get a lot out of this and yeah thank you nice experience speaking with you I really enjoyed that yeah yeah it's been really nice thanks for going back through all that I know it's hard to pull up those memories

sometimes all right well you take care