Speaker A
[music] Somebody just reiterated some viewer chat rules. They said by coming on the viewer chat, you agree to get to the point quickly. Make sure you have a question or topic you want to ask about.
Orthodox Christian Alex debates assurance of salvation and penal substitutionary atonement with Ryan, discussing scripture and sacramental theology.
Ask about this video. Answers come from its transcript only — with the timestamp, so you can check them.
Generated from the transcript and can be wrong — check the timestamp.
Key Takeaways
- Assurance of salvation is a contested topic with differing biblical interpretations.
- Penal substitutionary atonement is a key theological disagreement between the participants.
- Works and faith relationship is debated in the context of salvation and true knowledge of God.
- The sacrament of confession and its biblical basis is discussed from Orthodox and Protestant views.
- The debate illustrates the complexity of interpreting scripture and doctrine within Christian traditions.
What the video covers
- The video features a live debate between Alex, an Orthodox Christian YouTuber, and Ryan on theological topics.
- They discuss the assurance of salvation, with Alex expressing uncertainty about 100% assurance and Ryan citing scripture for certainty.
- The debate covers penal substitutionary atonement and its characterization.
- They analyze various biblical passages including 2 Timothy 4:18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 10, and Romans 8:1 to support their views.
- Alex argues that works do not disqualify salvation, while Ryan emphasizes the importance of works and true faith.
- The conversation touches on the interpretation of sinning willfully after knowing the truth and its consequences.
- They debate the role and understanding of confession and the sacrament in Orthodox and Protestant theology.
- Alex challenges Ryan’s understanding of Orthodox practices and the apostolic tradition.
- The debate ends with a discussion on justification by faith, baptism, and sanctification.
- The interaction highlights differing theological perspectives on salvation, scripture interpretation, and church practices.
Chapters
- 00:00Viewer Chat Rules and Introduction
- 01:00Introduction of Alex and Opening Remarks
- 01:44Discussion on Assurance of Salvation
- 02:40Paul’s Certainty and Biblical Context
- 03:40Works and Salvation in Titus 1
- 04:47True Knowledge of God and Works Debate
- 06:31Hebrews 10 and Sinning Willfully
- 08:06Sacrament of Confession and Its Biblical Basis
- 10:44Justification, Baptism, and Sanctification Debate
- 17:00Closing Remarks and Debate Conclusion
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
Not interrupt Ryan when he was speaking. I'll bet you they added that one after his interaction with Val.
Speaker A
Ryan will determine when a topic has been sufficiently covered to prevent going around in circles. If Ryan mutes the viewer, the viewer is not to unmute themselves. You have to come with a humble heart, ready to learn, not a rude
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or combative attitude. I hope that these rules go both ways, dude. I hope that they go both ways. Uh, Spartan Speedrun sent $5 super chat.
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Thank you for the super chat. I know it gives grace in some way, but what exactly does the Eucharist do in us and for us? How essential is it for salvation? God bless you, man.
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All right, we'll bring up Alex. Welcome, Eric. Alex. Yo, what's up? Hey, man. Good to have you here, bro.
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Yeah. Um, today, well, I want to be open from the get-go here. I am a YouTuber and I post Orthodox content. So, I'm an Orthodox Christian and I guess I'll get straight to the point to adhere to the rules that
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you have here. I have a problem with your character, race, and your camera. Is that possible or no?
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Uh, sure. I'm also live streaming. So, yeah, there you go. Hey, man. Nice to meet you.
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How are you? Yeah, not bad. Not bad. Yeah. So, maybe I'll ask you then. So, how sure are you out of 100 you're going to heaven?
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Uh, well, I am saved. I am being saved and I will be saved. Uh, I don't think assurance is something that's guaranteed. But again, uh my problem with you is your characterization of penal substitutionary atonement. If you want to talk about assurance, that's
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fine. Like what do you think? Uh I'm pretty sure uh 0 to 100. Uh I guess I can't say 100.
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You can't say 100. Okay. Oh, hold on. I have an issue. Do you think Paul could say 100?
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Uh no. I don't think he did. Really? I think he did. Have a look at 2 Timothy 4 verse 18, he says this, "The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the
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glory forever and ever." Amen. So Paul was sure about where he was going. He knew that the Lord will bring him safely into his heavenly kingdom.
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Yeah. I think a better way to look at that is that he has a hope that Christ will bring him into the kingdom because there are other places in Paul's epistles where he very clearly struggles with his salvation.
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You can't just like pick one verse. He's not thinking, "Look, I'm not sure if God's going to let me in." This is an absolute certainty. In fact, the Bible says we can know. I brought this up earlier on that I write these things to
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you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. And so, if you're like, "Well, I'm not sure. I could I could sin tomorrow. I could end up in hell." And
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you don't know you have eternal life. Uh well, if you look at 1 Corinthians 9, because I'll admit I wasn't prepared to discuss this topic. I did want to talk to you about PSA because that was the topic
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that you were talking about right before I came on here. But he talks about like disciplining his body and bringing it into subjection so that he will not be disqualified after preaching. Uh there are a bunch of
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things and when he talks to Titus qualified from here but disqualified from ministry. If you have a look at this entire context here, he's saying like to the weak I became the weak that I might win the weak and become all
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things to all people that by all means possible I might save some. And so he's talking about in his ministry he's making sure that his body is not going astray into sin lest he be disqualified because if you do give over to sin then
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it can disqualify the effectiveness of your ministry quite a lot. So I just don't see anything in what he's saying where he's like, I'm not sure where I'm going to go when I die.
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So fine, I'll concede that point certainty of salvation. I'll concede that that point is about his office. What do you have to say about in Titus where he talks about people were disqualified from salvation by their actions
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in Titus one? In Titus one, yeah, I don't have the it's Titus chapter 1. I don't have the exact verse citation off the top of my head, but here, let me pull it up.
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Uh they profess to know God but they deny him by his works. Yeah. Yeah. 16. Yeah. So they they profess to know God. They profess to be a Christian or know God in some sense. But their actions deny him.
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Yeah. So their actions disqualify them from knowing God. Oh no. It's saying they profess professing to know God is different to actually truly knowing God.
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So that verse doesn't support your case either. Well, okay. What is he supposed to say?
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[laughter] That they know God, but then they don't know God because of their works. Because in Hebrews 10, St. Paul does explicitly say that.
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It's saying here they profess to know God. As people that profess to know God, even Mormons profess to know God, right?
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But that doesn't mean they actually truly know God. If they deny the Trinity, they don't really know God, but they're professing to know him. So, you don't think that your works disqualify you from salvation?
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No, because I know that in Romans 8:1 it tells us that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus if Christ paid for your sin.
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So, how do you bring that together with Hebrews? I think it's I think it's Hebrews chapter 10. Again, I don't have the citation off the top of my head because I'm doing this a bit off the cuff here
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that says that there are those that have tasted of the Holy Spirit and they have fallen away and that if you continue to sin intentionally or willfully that there is no sacrifice left for you.
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Yeah. In Hebrews 10:26, what you're referring to there is referring to the sin of rejecting Jesus. Right? Because the he's making the contrast here between the animal sacrifice. You look at verse four of the chapter. It is impossible for the blood of bulls and
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goats to take away sins. Have a look at verse 11 when he says, "Every priest stands daily at his service offering repeatedly the same sacrifices which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single
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sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God." So he's the Hebrews are feeling tempted to go back to Judaism and reject Christ. And he's saying, "Look, if you deliberately go ahead and do that, it's a sin, right? to
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go and deliberately reject Christ, go back to Judaism, there's no sacrifice left because I've already he's made clear that the animal sacrifices cannot save you. And if you reject the once for all sacrifice of Christ, you got no
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hope. You just got hell to come. So this says if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. You're telling me that this doesn't mean if you sin
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willfully, this means if you reject Jesus, which sin are we talking about? The sin of rejecting Jesus. That's a sin, correct? To reject Jesus.
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Yes. But this is not specific language. This is just if you sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of truth.
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Read things in context. Have you read the entire chapter of Hebrews 10? Of course. I've read it multiple times.
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But I don't think that you can. Have you ever done a sin willfully?
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Uh yes, of course. Right. So after coming to the knowledge of the truth, you've done a sin willfully.
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Yes. Your interpretation then, man, there's no sacrifice for you that means you must be going to hell. Well, that's what we have the sacraments for, for confession and we have tangible means of remedying these. There's no sacrifice you can't go to
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confession if there's no sacrifice for you if the sacrifice of Christ is null and void for you because you've sinned willfully after coming to Christ then how you're interpreting this means that you
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hell based on your interpretation of this verse well because you can't take one verse at a time you know Paul also teaches us that context.
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Yes, of course. So, if you can't take a verse from earlier in the chapter you can't take a verse from earlier in the chapter to obfuscate a general term later in the chapter. It very clearly says if you sin willfully, you can't
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restrict the term to what you want it to be earlier in the chapter. It's talking about sacrifices and uh if you sin willfully sately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, then therefore what's going to come for you? What it means there's no longer a
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sacrifice for your sins. Yeah. And it's by virtue of your actions. That's what's coming your way based on how you're interpreting this verse by virtue of your actions. Yeah. That's what it says.
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Yeah. Well then, man, you're lost. Then if you got if you've got no longer Jesus, he can't he's not going to help you because there's no sacrifice left.
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Jesus won't help you. That's what the sacraments are for. So we have a concrete means of remedying these sins.
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Say that if the sacrifice of Jesus is null and void. Well, because you keep interrupting me, you're not letting me talk about the greater context. Because in Romans, Paul says that if we confess our sins, then God is good and he
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forgives us. So now you're not going to take the context of Hebrews, you're going to go to a different book.
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Of course, you have to take the apostolic deposit as a whole. I understand but you notice you're not actually you said this was a general principle here but now you're not actually taking it as a general principle and saying well actually if
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you go to a sacment now you do have a sacrifice sense but I thought because you have to take the apostolic deposit as a whole sacrifice so where does the Bible say that if you've lost the sacrifice of Jesus if
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you do a sacment you then regain the sacrifice of Jesus yes when Paul says that if Confess your sins. He is good to forgive you.
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Paul doesn't say that. Of course he does. No. First John 19. I'm not sure how much of the Bible you know, sir, but my encouragement is to ask yourself, does the Bible say that salvation Okay. So, I got the citation wrong, but
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that is in the text. Yeah, it's not. Yeah. First John 19. If we confess our sin, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. So you can't take just
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one verse. You have to take the apostolic deposit as a whole. And this is what I think is lacking in your view, Ryan, is that you have no concrete means. Excuse me. Excuse me. You have no concrete means for uh repentance.
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It uh well here, let me pull it up. Doesn't say that. Doesn't say anything about going to a priest.
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What does it say? Oh, it doesn't say anything about it. Just say if we confess our sins.
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Okay. And who do you confess it to? Well, if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. So people claim that they're without sin deceiving themselves. And he's contrasting those people in verse
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eight to the people in verse 9 who if we confess our sins as in we are not those who say we don't sin. We confess and the word confess just means acknowledge there. If we acknowledge our sins, he's
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faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Well, I want to go back to the point you brought up earlier. Who do we confess to?
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Jesus to save us. Who do we confess to? Well, it doesn't it's actually not specific here. In fact, there it's specific somewhere else.
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Where is it specific? Do you know where it's specific? Well, you can confess to God. That's fine. You can Well, Ryan, I don't know how how thorough your biblical knowledge is here. Uh, but James 5 specifically says that we can confess to each other.
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That's exactly what I just said. Yes. So, I don't know how thorough your biblical knowledge is here, but you know, in church history, excuse me, I let you speak. I don't know why you have to interrupt me when I speak.
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Receive forgiveness of sins. Alex, that's not how we get forgiveness of sins by confessing to a priest. Can you give me one Bible verse that says, "Confess to a priest to get your sins forgiven." That's a straw man. That's not my
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position. Okay. At first, the church practiced this. Excuse me. I don't know how thorough your knowledge of church history is, my brother. I love you. But I don't know how thorough your knowledge of church history is. The way the church practiced
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this at first was that they would confess out loud to the entire church. However, as more high-profile people join the church, that out loud confession in front of everybody did not become a tenable thing. So that you would go confess to a priest. So we have
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the sacrament of confession by when you go to the priest, you don't sacrif you don't confess to the priest. You confess, you confess to God. The priest simply aids.
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It's interesting you say that though. Interesting you say that. Aids the confession. Let me bring this up. The um this is from the the Orthodox. You said you're Orthodox.
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Indeed. Says here in the Orthodox Catechism, Basic Teachings of the Orthodox Faith. Bishop Seritus says, "Let no one say then that he can confess to God himself or to a saint or to an icon. No, it can only be done to a
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bishop or to a priest and to no one else. Yeah. Well, if you knew about the Orthodox Church, you know that there is no one bishop that speaks for the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church speaks through its synods. So, the
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standard understanding of the sacrament of confession. Uh I don't know the greater context of this. Based on this one quote, I would say that that is not entirely true. I think that there is more.
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Are you saying that you know better than this this bishop in the Orthodox Church?
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No. What I suspect more is that you took that quote out of context. You can go have a look at it. You want I would love to. But a full understanding of confession is that the priest uh helps the confession along,
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but you're confessing to God. He's just there to uh help the process go along to ask questions, probing questions. Have you ever confessed to your sins to anyone, Ryan? Have you ever confessed to a clergy about your sins?
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Well, I don't see any biblical need to go and confess to a priest in order to Well, you should try it sometime.
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I've received So, you've never even practiced this thing, yet you presume to you've never been to an Orthodox church, yet you presume to know about it.
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Romans 5:1, it says here, "Therefore, since we've been faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." What about 1 Corinthians 4 that says, "If you abandon sanctification, you abandon God." No, I reject I reject your
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easy belieism. I reject easy belieism. So you you do you reject that we're justified by faith?
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I reject that we're justified by faith alone because the Bible also says that baptism saves you.
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But do but do you reject that we're justified by faith? No, I reject that we are justified by faith alone. We are justified by faith.
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to Paul. By what means are we justified then? Uh sanctification. We're justified by faith. According to St. Peter, we're justified. We're saved by baptism.
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We're justified by faith. And what does being justified by faith? Look, you're trying to run from my arguments here. 1 Thessalonians 4 says that if you abandon sanctification, you abandon God. How does that not uh how does that justify your easy belieism?
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Yes, it does. We can pull it up. Pull it up, Ryan. Pull it up, Ryan. It says that you're not actually complying. You notice how you said I'm going to comply with the viewer chat rules here, but you're not really doing that.
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Neither are you because you interrupted me as well, Ryan. Yeah, Alex complying with the rules. I would encourage you, man, to read through Romans. This is what helped me, Alex, come to know the truth. And I really want you to come to know knowledge of
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the truth. He muted me, guys. Once you realize no amount of good deeds you could do could ever make you right before God, doesn't matter how many times you pray, get baptized, to others.
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I'm muted. It's not going to make you peace have peace with God. Once you see, I should be in hell for my sins, but Christ died for me. While I was still sinning, Christ died for me. Once you put your
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trust in him, you'll see this is you'll have peace with God. Not [laughter] a ceasefire which you think you may have, Alex, until you do your next sin. But actually, true peace, shalom with God.
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Don't you want to have peace with God, Alex? Of course I do. But easy belieism is not the way which is what you are teaching.
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Why are you interrupting me? Justified by faith. He muted me again. He muted me again.
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Instead of dealing with the text, you basically present straw man like easy belieism where Paul says justified by faith. And so my hope is that he muted me again when he says therefore we have now been justified by his blood shall we be saved
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by and from the wrath of God. So if this is true being justified by his blood this is even more true it's definitely going to happen. So under your view you could be justified but then oh you do a
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sin you die in that state of sin hell that undermines what the passage is saying here. So Alex I do pray that God does bring you to to himself but abandon trust in what your church is telling you. Put trust in what Christ says in
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his word and what the scriptures say the apostolic deposit which is the word of God. Thanks for coming up man. God bless you.
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All right let's pray for him. Can I get [laughter] Romans 3:4? Dude, he kicked me.
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He kicked me, [laughter] [gasps] dude. Let me pull up First Thessalonians 4. He kicked me.
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He didn't even let me get the last word. He accused me of breaking his rules and then he broke his own rules.
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He kicked me. He freaking kicked me, dude. I can't believe that he didn't like that I said easy belieism.
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[laughter] show you guys first Thessalonians 4. This is the will of God, your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, that each one of you knows how to control his own body and holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like
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Gentiles who do not know God, that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter. Because the Lord is an avenger in all things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us to impurity, but
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in holiness. Therefore, whoever disregards this disregards not man but God who gives his Holy Spirit to you. If you disregard sanctification, you disregard God.
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So, how can you be saved if you're disregarding God when you're supposed to uh when you're supposed to abide in God? Uh [music]
Topics:Orthodox ChristianityAssurance of SalvationPenal Substitutionary AtonementBiblical InterpretationConfession SacramentSalvation DebateChristian TheologyHebrews 10Titus 12 Timothy 4:18
