Paul Bernardo — Police interrogation of notorious serial killer

"Okay, tape's on." My name is Detective Brad Hoover, my badge number 6188, and I'm with Toronto Police Service Sex Crimes Unit. The time now is 2:05 p.m. We're presently at the Kingston Penitentiary in Kingston, Ontario, in a boardroom, and as thick as the main building you'd call it. Present in the room here, if I could just have each of you identify yourself for the purposes of the videotape that's being made. Seated to my left, off-camera and now sitting at the table, is your counsel. Just identify yourself. "Yes, certainly. It's Anthony Bryant." And straight across the table for me, if you identify yourself. "Constable Darlene Coulas, badge number 6483 from Toronto Police Service." And seated to my right, if you could just identify yourself. "Paul Jason Teal — a.k.a. Paul Bernardo." And again, my name is Brad Hoover and today is June the 7th, 2007. Mr. Teal, the reason that we're here today is to speak to you regarding a couple of incidents, a couple of matters. First of all, before we start, I just want you to make sure that you're aware that what we say is being videotaped here. "Yeah, that works." I'm just going to start this audio tape. I forgot to do that. Now I just started this audiotape here. We started the interview at 2:05 p.m. My name is Detective Brad Hoover. You are not presently being given a caution or anything, and I want you to understand what you're saying to us today is voluntary. That means that if you don't want to talk to us, you don't have to. Your counsel is present, and if you need to speak to him, you certainly can, but I just want to make sure you understand what you're saying here is voluntary and that we're interviewing you as a potential witness. Do you understand that? "Yeah." Just a little bit of background about the first time we met back last year in April of 2006. That was in regards to a letter that you had sent through the Attorney General's office that filtered down to my office in regards to some admissions that you made about some sexual assaults that you committed. I'm here to tell you that I have concluded that investigation and that there have been two offenses that I have been able to identify, and with the information that you've provided to me at that time, I was able to conclude those matters as having been committed by yourself. So for that, I thank you for that information. "Sorry, you've identified..." Identified this offense? No, no, no, no. I have identified the offense that you were talking about, and based on that information, I was able to include those cases that actually provided enough information that I was satisfied you were the person that committed those offenses. "Okay." That make sense? "That makes sense. What about ones that you thought that I came forward with that maybe you thought that I didn't do? Were there any of those?" There was none that I thought you didn't do. There were some that I didn't have enough information to either identify the offense because you were unable to provide enough details at that time, or they may not have ever been reported to the police. As you said when we spoke, some of them were—I won't call them minor type offenses but, ah— "No, I understand" — offenses that may not have been reported to the police. "Ok, um, well, I turned on the TV, I waited for Peel Regional to come by; September rolls, they say, they make a public announcement, it's written on my file here, that I lied to police and I did not commit the crimes that I said I committed, the offenses in Peel Region. Okay, big problem." I have spoken to Peel Region and they have told me that they don't have enough information at this point to identify anything that you—the letter that was sent to the police, through to the police, wasn't specific enough to identify any offenses. Now that's something that we can talk about sort of following this interview, and if you want to get into that, we can talk about that. "Look, I've been sitting on this for years in this place. It's written on my file and it makes me seem like always just this crazy—you guys love doing that—I'm just this crazy psychopathic liar. Why was that statement issued? Why didn't they come in and talk to me if they didn't have enough information? We were waiting, now that tape, you can play that tape back, I asked you guys, is Peel Regional gonna come in? I sat here month after month after month—no one came. I turned on the TV in September. Peel Regional, you know, declared that Paul Bernardo was, you know, this crazy liar to police. What, what, what's the fundamental problem here?" Well, "I know, I mean justice, the Canadian way, and no one comes in and now you guys are saying that you didn't have enough information? Well..." I can't answer for them specifically as to what they did or didn't do. I can tell you that because they're a separate police department, I don't have any control over what investigation that they did do. I can tell you that I have spoken with the investigator in Peel Region and they have told me that at this point they don't have enough information to move forward. They haven't been able to identify any offense that was specifically talked about. "That statement you're giving me is much different than the public statement they said, which said I was a liar." I don't, I don't... "The same game, they didn't come in if they don't have enough information, why don't you come in, get the information? I mean, either I'm lying or not lying, and this goes to the crux of this argument. Either I'm a liar to you, that I'm lying to you right now about everything like I did to Peel Regional, according to their story, or I'm not, and, you know, I, I just, I just, I'm not gonna sit here and, you know, come voluntarily and have people come—you guys banned me from the press, you roll your stories over and you constantly say that I'm a liar, I'm a liar. I made mistakes 17 years ago, so okay, fine, I did, but now we're talking about today and you're not gonna roll forward that I'm some psychopathic liar sitting in jail claiming other people's responsibilities for other crimes. This is a total cross-examination point you want started this thing. James Lockyer is gonna grab a hold of it and say, well, he lied about other crimes, you know, he's a crazy liar. Why didn't you guys resolve this?" And again, I can't answer for what Peel Region did or didn't do. Jurisdictionally, we're kind of bound... "Well, still, there's the good guys and the bad guys, you know, what I mean, you're on the same team." Yes, we are, but as far as us investigating matters that take place outside of the actual Toronto proper, that's why Peel Regional has their police service, and, like Detective Hoover said, we can't answer as to what they did with their investigations or the many issues that they were looking at that transpired out in their area, and we really can't speak to that. Now, whether that's something you wish to have your counsel deal with someone and that something else, but unfortunately there isn't a lot Detective Hoover and I can do with regards to those things. "Well, you've been watching this thing and they should subpoena these guys from Peel Regional. They can bring out all the facts to show just where I lied, that if I'm a liar. That's what I say to do it because either I'm a liar or I'm not a liar and I'm not a liar, but you guys are trying to paint me as one. The public, court of the public, they turn on the TV in September of last year and I was this crazy liar. That's what the TV reported and not only did they report there, they wrote it on my file. I've got it right in my cell: Paul Bernardo, Peel Regional said Paul Bernardo lied to police about crimes he didn't commit and said he did." Okay. "I mean, this is, this, that's just awful. I mean, come on, enough manipulation, you know what I mean, either you tell the truth or don't, otherwise the whole purpose of any interview is just stupid, because if I'm this crazy liar,

if I could just have each of you identify yourself for the purposes of the videotape that's being made. Seated to my left, off-camera and now sitting at the table, is your counsel. Just identify yourself. "Yes certainly. It's Anthony Bryant." And straight across the table for me if you

identify yourself. "Constable Darlene Coulas, badge number six four eight three from Toronto Police Service." And seated to my right, if you could just identify yourself. "Paul Jason Teal — a.k.a. Paul Bernardo" And again my name is Brad Hoover and today is June the 7th 2007. Mr. Teal, the reason that

we're here today is to speak to you regards to a couple of incidents, a couple of matters. First of all before we start I just want you to make sure that you're aware that what we say is being videotaped here. "Yeah that works." I'm just going to start this audio tape

I forgot to do that Now I just started this audiotape here we started the interview at 2:05 p.m. my name is Detective Brad Hoover all you're not presently being given a caution or anything and I want you to understand what you're saying to us today is voluntary. That means that if you don't want

to talk to us you don't have to. Your counsel is present and if you need to speak to him you certainly can but I just want to make sure you understand what you're saying here is voluntary and that we're interviewing you as a potential witness. Do you understand that? "Yeah"

Just a little bit of background about the first time we met back last year in April of 2006. That was in regards to a letter that you had sent through the attorney general's office that filtered down to my office in regards to some admissions that you made about some sexual

assaults that you committed. I'm here to tell you that I have concluded that investigation and that there have been two offenses that I have been able to identify and with the information that you've provided to me at that time was able to conclude those matters as having been committed by yourself

So for that I thank you for that information. "Sorry, you've identified..." Identified this offense, no no no no I have identified the offense that you were talking about and based on that information I was able include those cases that actually provided enough information that I was satisfied you were

the person that committed those offenses. "Okay." That make sense? "That makes sense, what about ones that you thought that I came forward with that maybe you thought that I didn't do? Were there any of those?" There was none that I thought you didn't do. There were some that

I didn't have enough information to either identify the offense because you were unable to provide enough details at that time, or they may not have ever been reported to the police. As you said when we spoke, some of them were

I won't call them minor type offences but ah — "No, I understand" — offences that may not have been reported to the police. "Ok, um, well, I turned on the TV, I waited for Peel Regional to come by; September rolls they say, they make a public

announcement, it's written on my file here, that that I lied to police and I did not commit the crimes that I said I committed, the offences in Peel Region. Okay, big problem." I have spoken to Peel Region and they have told me that

they don't have enough information at this point to identify anything that you, the letter that was sent to the police to through to the police wasn't specific enough to identify any offenses Now that's something that we can talk about sort of following this interview and if you want to get

into that we can talk about that. "Look, I've been sitting on this for years in this place. It's written on my file and it makes me seem like always just this crazy — you guys love doing that — I'm just this crazy psychopathic liar

Why was that statement issued? Why didn't they come in and talk to me if they didn't have enough information. We were waiting, now that tape, you can play that tape back, I asked you guys is Peel Regional gonna

come in. I sat here month after month after month — no one came. I turned on the TV in September Peel Regional, you know, declared that Paul Bernardo was, you know, this crazy liar to police. What what what's the

fundamental problem here?" Well "I know I mean justice, the Canadian way and and no one comes in and now you guys are saying that you didn't have enough information? Well..." I can't answer for them specifically as to what they did or didn't do. I can tell you that because they're a separate

police department I don't have any control over what investigation that they did do I can tell you that I have spoken with the investigator in Peel Region and they have told me that at this point they don't have enough information to move forward. They haven't been able identify any offense that was

specifically talked about. "That statement you're giving me as much different the public statement they said which said I was a liar." I don't, I don't... "The same game, they didn't come in if they don't have enough information, while don't you come in get the information. I mean either I'm lying or not lying and this goes

to the crux of this argument. Either I'm a liar to you, that I'm lying to you right now about everything like I did to Peel Regional, according to their story, or I'm not, and, you know, I I just I just I'm not gonna sit

here and, you know, come voluntarily and have people come — you guys banned me from the press, you roll your stories over and you constantly say that I'm a liar, I'm a liar. I made mistakes 17 years ago, so

okay, fine, I did, but but now we're talking about today and you're not gonna roll forward that I'm some psychopathic liar sitting in jail claiming other people's responsibilities for other crimes This is a total of cross-examination point you want started this thing James Lockyer is

gonna grab a hold of it and say, well he lied about other crimes, you know he's a crazy liar. Why didn't you guys resolve this?" And again I can't answer for what Peel Region did or didn't do Jurisdictionally we're kind of bound... "Well, still, there's the good guys and the bad guys, you know, what I mean

you're on the same team." Yes we are, but as far as us investigating matters that take place outside of the actual Toronto proper, that's why Peel Regional has their police service and, like Detective Hoover said, we can't answer as to what they did with their investigations or the many

issues that they were looking at that transpired out in their area and we really can't speak to that. Now whether that's something you wish to have your counsel deal with someone and that something else, but unfortunately there isn't a lot Detective Hoover and I can do with regards to those things

"Well, you've been watching this thing and they should subpoena these guys from Peel Regional They can bring out all the facts to show just where I lied that if I'm a liar. That's what I say to do it because either I'm a liar or I'm not a liar and I'm not a liar but

you guys are trying to paint me as one. The public, court of the public, they turn on the TV in September of last year and I was this crazy liar. That's what the TV reported and not only did

the reported there, they wrote it on my file. I've got to right in my cell: Paul Bernardo, Peel Regional said Paul Bernardo lied to police about crimes he didn't commit and said he did." Okay "I mean this is this, that's just awful. I mean come on, enough manipulation, you know what I mean, either you tell the

truth or don't, otherwise the whole purpose of any interview is just stupid, because if I'm this crazy liar, I'll be sitting here lying to you about everything, right? Right? I mean, why wouldn't I am just this crazy liar." And then, again, I don't I don't know exactly what was said by Peel Region

I'm not here to answer to what they said, they're... "You know, it's one thing, you know — I'm a human being and to say that I'm a dangerous offender and raper and killer and all this stuff is fine. I mean free

publicity, you know, get that real tough-on-crime, get that bad guy, but but when you go to a certain point of lying, it just, I mean, it affects me totally, you know. I made mistakes, I made mistakes long time

ago, but don't say that today about this because then we're liable and we got a big problem because I'm looking at you and you're the bad guys, because I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm out telling the truth and you guys are walking around issuing statements that I lie here, I lie there. No?"

Well, I mean, those aren't statements that were issued by Detective Hoover or myself or... "I know, but it's the same it's Attorney General who sent you guys down here, he's fighting the case, he's taking this ball pitch back, right, so it's really all, it's the same organization. It's the Attorney General

I see him on TV talking about it." But this is a separate matter from what those issues were "It's still the Attorney General's office." Yeah may very well be but, so, we can't speak to anything that Peel Regional does or statements that they

release out to the media, because they have... "You know, it's the same thing if I'm a liar take the facts that that they have, they come down and talk to me any cross-examine, any defence lawyer can call them up

and show me where I'm lying, because you're not gonna find it. Maybe there's a minor mistake here and there — I think I have one thing about some tree, driveway where trees were, you know memory gets a little old

over time, but to say that is just ridiculous. Just like you guys didn't go, uh, you guys polygraph Karla yet? Ask her about it?

Nobody from the General Attorney’s office go down there? Nobody cared? Again — I know — but it's the same problem because you're making me out to be huge liar and and this is a problem." Well, I don't have any doubt as to what you told us before. The facts that I can verify I believe were true

And from what you told me you haven't told me any lies yet, so I have no personal reasons to believe that your lying. "Exactly." So... "Exactly." So... "But this is was different story than I've got in my file..." And I don't know what's in your file because I'm not privy to that information or

what's there or what's not there I'm just telling you from my perspective and from an investigative perspective into what I've looked into, to what admissions you've made back in April last year to me, I'm I'm satisfied I've done what I can do as far as the investigation. If Peel, if you'd

like to provide me with more information about the specific occurrences that occurred in Peel Region then we can talk about that after the focus of what we're here for today. "But it is part of the focus." Well it is and it isn't. "Well I think it is." I mean, obviously directly we're

here today to deal with the Baltovich matter that you're aware of. "But dealing with me comes down to credibility Comes down to credibility, absolutely it does and that's that's what we're here to talk about today and so let's let's deal with that and then we can deal with the other stuff afterwards. Is that ok? "Yeah, go ahead, just making

my point on it because it's gonna be addressed sometimes." Absolutely it will. "It should have been dealt with a year and a bit ago. So" "Well, not quite a year, actually." A little over a year ago. Um, I have some questions that were that were given to

me to ask you in relation to the Baltovich matter, the Robert Baltovich matter before we do that I just want to say you understand obviously the importance of telling the truth and the consequences potentially of someone who lies to the police and not telling the

truth? "I think we discovered that actually I was referring you guys tell the truth." Right, okay, so we're aware of that in this matter I believe that you had some conversation with your council into the regards to it and there has been some discussion about polygraph testing in this matter. Is that

true or not true or do you recall that? "Wha?... You're opening cans of worms everywhere." No, I'm just asking you a specific question. "You know that goes back to you guys polygraphed everyone about the Camaro, you didn't polygraph Karla, and in two years since, have you guys gone down there and asked her? Have you settled

the matter with it because you could say I lied or whatever about polygraph but have you asked her?

Because it comes down to a lot of that issue." OK. "You know I mean have you asked her? Has the attorney general gone down..." OK, I don't know Let me tell you a little bit; my involvement with this overall investigation of the Baltovich

is very limited. The only knowledge that I have is, as to what investigation has been done or hasn't been done, is specifically what's remained the conversations I've had about this interview here today, okay? Who or what other witnesses there are, I don't know. "In answer, in answer to your

question, I don't want to go off in tangents, but all these all these issues are relevant. I know you don’t think they are. In answer to your question is, we had some discussion on it but when Corcoran and the OPP came down before Karla was released I told him I'd be willing to take a

polygraph on anything and everything would you in turn are you going to go down before you release Karla and just asked her — she's not gonna take it she's gonna fail on on all these issues — did her

hand cause [inaudible] blah blah blah did this Tami happen in July, was the girl in January actually kidnapped and not somebody I picked up at a bar that she tried to roll over and all these other issues all relevant all relevant, and and, so then I addressed it to

you guys when you came back again last year I said yeah I'll take a polygraph on anything because I I'm not telling a lie on a thing. Are you, have you, again, I asked the question have you guys gone down

there? I know that Karla's free now. I'm not in the business of putting her in jail, it's not my thing but my point was, did you ask you her the question just so we get the story straight I mean if she

refuses, well, there's there's a reason why she's refusing and again you guys couldn't provide the answer and now almost a year later again you don't provide the answer. So, I mean, you know, I don't know what you're asking me, you're asking me to take a polygraph when you were willing to ask her?" Well again

"I mean..." This this my part of this investigation is is limited to what we're saying here today so the the details of all of what other witnesses may or may not have been asked or done, I don't know and as a as a potential witness I'm not allowed to tell you what we have done

so now I have to sort of be careful about the way that it's answered or even what you think my answer might be. "Yeah, I know, I just just wanted for the record that I gave you good information which

you guys could have independent of me could have verified my story or not and whether you guys do or do not is your business. Like I said, I'm not a prosecutor I'm not here to point a finger at

anyone but I showed you where to go so if you guys don't do that your business. But you know to me, it's like if you didn't, why didn't you if you want to know the truth about things." Right. "So..."

I understand that and I understand what you're saying, so, what we're here to talk about today, obviously you know that this statement may be used in court or maybe sent to court as a voluntary statement. "Yeah." Okay a polygraph obviously is

not something that's court admissible but I'm not sure if you're aware of that or not. "Yeah I am." So its not before the court So the crux of what we're here to talk about is that it has been suggested that in the continuing case

of the disappearance of Elizabeth Bain and the charge of murder against Robert Baltovich that you are the alternative suspect, or an alternative suspect. Are you aware of that? "Yeah, yeah." Did you kill Elizabeth Bain on June the 19th 1990? "Well, it's a loaded question. I mean are we gonna

go back and go through the time sequence of what happened in my life. I mean I could just give a yes or no answer but you know there's a lot of issues about that." Right. "You know, Karla's, my role

who did what, where, when — this is why I said did you guys you know go down there to get a polygraph to get to see if she was telling the truth. Like, why didn't Bevan do it in the first place? I mean his

polygraphing everyone over the Camaro, why would he make a deal with someone and not give them a polygraph? It's incomprehensible to me. You know because now I'm sitting — my file says her version, and it's a lie. You know, you know what I mean?" Yeah. "Like you know and I'm not making frivolous

points here. I mean, and now you're asking me after you after you said Peel Regional said I'm lying about this, and then you're saying I'm lying about my profile, you're saying I'm lying if I'm better or not, now you're saying hey did you kill this person? I mean well you're saying I'm lying here

here here. I could say no I didn't, but I mean you already said I'm lying here with Peel, you're saying..." Ok, I'm not saying anything about who's lying I'm simply, um... "And I’ve given you directions to go to

find the truth and no one's done that." And I have asked and again I have told you that I've done investigations on information that you've told me, and as a result of that information I have been able to verify in my mind where you've told me the truth, so if Peel Region is lying about you or someone

else is lying about you, I have no control over that or no... "It goes right to credibility." Well absolutely it does and that's I guess the the easy way today is to if we can go through will answer

the questions and yes I hope to be able to go through some timeline to identify where you were what you were doing specifically in relation to this this case. "Anyways I know I'm giving you guys a hard time about certain things but, I mean, really, I'm a human being and when you guys do all these

things I've gotta... anyways, I'll try and truncated it a little bit more but, anyways, the answer to that is no, but the 800-pound gorilla in the room is that's a life-25 sentence, you know, it really comes down to credibility and

not only credibility but then again timeline. I mean. between what Karla's and my roles were respectively and this and that. The answer's no to that question." Did you have anything to do with her disappearance? "No." Did you know Elizabeth Bain? "Not that I know of." Had you ever met her? "I'm gonna answer that with I don't remember

Because if I did or I didn't, I don't remember But I know an ex-girlfriend try to say it but, like I say, I don't remember" You are they obviously are aware of her disappearance?

"Yeah, sort of." Do you recall when you became aware of this? "Best that I can recollect after in September "Didn't follow the news much" The date obviously June the 19th 1990 was... "But but but, you know, other than that

I don't remember, maybe I heard about it before but I can't recall if I did or not. But I remember in jail I had newspapers after that fact and I saw something on it" We'll sort of get into that a little bit when we hope to go through a bit of a timeline

with you as to some things that may jog your memory as to.. "We're talking now." Back in that time. I mean If you asked me what I was doing three weeks ago on Tuesday I probably couldn't tell you

unless you put some reference to it so hopefully be able to do that and again obviously June the 19th 1990, do you know what you were doing that day? "I have no recollection." I have a document here in front of me that

references some points in time around this, the June of 1990 period from police investigation. This is what indicates you may have been involved with or may have certain things that you may have done and I'd like to go through a couple

of them that sort of may sort of assist you in remembering what we were doing back in 1990 The first part of June 1990 actually June the first, Karla had a doctor's appointment where she was complaining of pains in her right side, perhaps she had something to do

with the rabies shot, does that ring any bells? "None at all." In the first part of June you had a Nissan 240sx is that correct? "Yeah." You're making several trips into the United States June 2nd June 3rd June 10th June 16th. I think at that point you were involved with cigarette smuggling and

things like that from what I recall. Is that no? "That would be. No, that wasn't until after we moved out, so." Ok.

So, making several trips to the States within a couple of days that's something...? "When we started the relationship we were going over all the time so just for personal reasons only" On June the 16th you shopped at Ruff Hewn. Is that Niagara Falls, United States, is that store sound familiar to you?

"Yeah it sounds familiar, I have no idea if those are the dates, but you got a receipt for it." I think there must be a receipt and again I don't have all the details I'm just going by what's on this sheet of paper — it's a black expandable binder, does that... "I can't recall 100 percent but..."

That would have been around the same time. That was about a week prior to, if you purchased one of those, Elizabeth Bain going missing "I have no idea when I purchase it, I just recall I had something like that, like an accordion binder type of thing

June June the 16th again, thats woulda been the same day in St. Catharines you attended a movie Back to the Future 3. Do you recall when that movie came out? "I have no idea" There's a receipt for a cellphone purchased at a Radio Shack at the

Town & Country mall at 6366 Yonge Street. Do you remember buying a cellphone "I know I bought a cell phone around that time because when I declared bankruptcy I handed my other one in and I bought the Radio Shack one

I don't know the dates." That would have been the day after Elizabeth Bain went missing Does that... do you remember anything you were involved with around that time? You say you were going bankrupt so what type of activity were involved in sort of on a day-to-day basis? "The only thing I remember about the bankruptcy that happened

around a couple days before the the sexual assault that the composite came out, that was — if i recollect correctly — it was two days before I filed for that "But I couldn't even tell you that date, I just know it was some time in... what date did you say that was?

June the...?" June the 16th of 1990. "When was that sexual assault, the one with the composite, was it the 24th What date do you guys have for that?" There was one, there was a sexual assault in May of 1990. "That the composite one? In May?"

I think that it is but it doesn't say that specifically here but shortly after that... "My time line's off." "Um, I don't know." The end of June of 1990 that was the original, when someone identified you potentially .

as the Scarborough rapist... "When was that, the end of...?" That was June 28 of 1990 Lori Homolka's 19th birthday was June the 22nd 1990. Do you recall her going to her birthday? "I know, I know it was around that time but I don’t specifically recall that birthday"

The only reason it might have sunk in is she would have then been of legal drinking age and perhaps you [inaudible] "Way before that" June 21st so after just the day after you've bought the cell phone you made a purchase at

"I'm sorry, you know saying what 19 for this girl's...?" June 19th was the day she went missing "What day did I buy that?" June 20th was the day you bought the cell phone. June 25 "I must have declared bankruptcy

around then because I got that cell phone — I had to hand my, all my, uh, items in to the trustee and I had a cell phone, so I went in and got a Radio Shack one, so it would have been right around the same time, I don’t think I went a month without it

I don't think so, I might have, but anyways I don't know, it was a while ago, so memory's a bit fuzzy." Yeah, May the 29th which was just before that about a month before that that was the day that the police released the composite. "Ah, so it was May"

"So I lost a month. That's what happens you lock a guy over fifteen years and then bring this all up "The memory gets fuzzy. So I guess I waited a month to get the cell phone." About a month to get the cell phone. Did you recall anything what were what were you doing sorry during that month?

Anything? "Probably the same thing says they're going across the border, back and forth, recreational stuff "I know Tammy happened in July. That was I think third week in July, for the first time but this was back a few months"

Okay, so just prior to Tammy's birthday there was some shopping at a Canadian Tire store... "Lori" "Lori's birthday. Sorry, Lori's birthday. Two times in one day you went to Canadian Tire on Sheppard Avenue 1019 Sheppard Avenue. Do you normally shop

at Canadian Tire stores? "Back then, yeah. That's before all these super center, Walmart's and stuff" Do you ever recall having any conversations about the disappearance of Elizabeth Bain?

"No." If I if I played you a, it's going to play us a short audio clip. It's a conversation that you had — or a conversation between Tony Moore who was an investigator with the Toronto police and Karla Homolka. I'm just going to play to see if this

sounds familiar or if it jogs your memory as to any conversation you may have had Had there been any discussion about Bain's disappearance?

"Umm, I think the only thing that he ever said was about her was that her boyfriend did it or something like that but there wasn't any real extensive discussion but he talked about like all the women that were disappearing"

Again that that was a conversation between an investigator Tony Moore with the Toronto Police Service and Karla Holmolka. Does that conversation, is that something you may recall saying that to Karla or talking about that? "Well, you know, she went down 'Paul did it.' Catchphrases at trial — 'Paul did it,' 'It

was Paul.' She's continuing right here, the fact of the matter was, since I didn't pay attention to anything, I didn't watch the news back then, I was too busy doing other things. I didn't pay attention but there's the

profile is a serial killer pays attention to all the news media, this narcissistic personality, blah blah blah All that crap. I don't know anything about this case now, I don't know if this guy did it, I don't even care I'm not a

prosecutor, you know, do the right thing for society blah blah blah I don't know if he did it, I don't have the facts to know if he did it, and I certainly didn't know back then, so to say

that for me to make, she's alleging that I made a statement 'the boyfriend did it.' well, you know some cases I have followed because I'm in jail and I've nothing else to do but watch the TV, but I weigh the facts, you know, I take, you know, like did OJ like do it for example, right

You weigh the facts about whether he did or not, he got off, so I think that's the law but I would have had to weigh the facts. I don't know the facts in these circumstances so there's no way

I can make a statement such as that. How could I say he did it if I don't know the facts of the case So, no, she’s, she’s incorrect" And it may depend on when that conversation took place between between her and and that investigator

"Well, Moore, wasn’t he back when that deal was made? "Moore, if I remember reading the transcripts that was a name from day one, when she signed her little twelve year deal, no polygraph required. Hey I'm I'm giving you the truth here, you guys can prove me wrong, go down there ask her

You're gonna get a no. I keep telling you but no one does it. But on but you know so that's sounds like a conversation but that's what you do, you want to blame it all on the other person

You know, you paint that scenario.— psychopathic serial killer" Do you do you know Robert Baltovich?

"I’ve seen him on, you know, on [inaudible] TV or whatever "Okay, so I purposely avoided this case." Right. "I don't like this shit on my mind, do you know what I mean? Anything to do with... You know, unfortunately when Karla came out I watched and tried

to discern truth, fact between fiction a couple of years ago but otherwise, you know, I don't like to get into these things. I've had 100 lifetimes of all her stuff and I don't want my mind poisoned with this and this and this, so in this case I avoid it as much as possible

But I have seen his face on the TV" Anything else you'd like to tell us about this investigation?

"No." Okay, the time now is 2:35 and we'll conclude this portion of our interview "Okay."