Speaker A
Today we're going to be discussing the Islamic dilemma. Okay. Would you like to start, Sam?
Debate on the Islamic dilemma exploring Quran's dependence on the Bible and its implications for Christian-Muslim dialogue.
Key Takeaways
- The Quran frequently references biblical history and assumes familiarity with it.
- Understanding the Quran's narratives often requires knowledge of the Bible.
- The Islamic dilemma involves the question of whether the Quran validates the Bible's authenticity.
- Christian evangelists use Quranic verses to argue for the Bible's reliability to Muslim audiences.
- The debate highlights challenges for non-Christian, non-Jewish audiences in verifying Quranic claims.
What the video covers
- The video discusses the Islamic dilemma, focusing on whether the Quran depends on the Bible for context and understanding.
- Sam Shamoun argues that the Quran cannot be fully understood without prior knowledge of the Bible.
- The debate centers on Quranic verses, especially Surah Maida 5:27-32, which recounts the story of the two sons of Adam.
- The discussion highlights that the Quran assumes the audience has access to prior scriptures, mainly the Bible, to confirm historical details.
- They explore the challenge for pagans and others unfamiliar with the Bible to verify Quranic claims about past events.
- The video examines the role of prior knowledge in interpreting Quranic references to Jewish and Christian history.
- The speakers debate whether the Quran explicitly directs readers to the Bible or merely assumes its knowledge.
- The conversation touches on the implications for Christian evangelism and Muslim apologetics.
- The dialogue includes references to various Quranic chapters and verses to support arguments.
- The debate also briefly addresses the authenticity and interpretation of biblical texts in relation to the Quran.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction to the Islamic Dilemma
- 07:49Discussion on Quranic Verses and Biblical Dependence
- 15:06Analysis of Surah Maida 5:27-32
- 22:35Debate on Prior Knowledge and Audience Understanding
- 29:25Challenges for Pagans and Non-Biblical Audiences
- 39:01Christian Evangelism and Quranic Validation of the Bible
- 46:36Further Scriptural References and Interpretations
- 55:40Closing Arguments and Summary
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
Sure. I mean, however he wants. He can lead it if he wants. Go ahead.
Speaker A
Yeah. My assertion is that the Quran depends on the Bible, not the other way around. You can't make sense of much of the Quran without the Bible. I mean, that's the assertion. So, if you want to go into examples, we can.
Speaker A
It's up to you. Okay. So, the Islamic dilemma, I will define it as like a promise, if you will. And what is the promise? The promise is that there are Christian preachers that say, "Listen, the Christian audience that are trying to, you know, evangelize and preach to their Muslim friends, they can grab a copy of the Quran and they can point to certain verses that are going to demonstrate that today's Bible is fully authentic." That seems like they're promising this. They're saying, "Look, you can do this. This is what the Islamic dilemma is all about." But I just want to remind the audience that this is a promise of the what?
Speaker A
Islamic dilemma. It's about the Quran. And so I'm imagining a Christian audience at home waiting and saying, "Show me the verse so I can go to the mosque and say, 'This is the verse that proves that the Bible's authentic.'" And that's exactly what I'd like to address.
Speaker A
That's fine. So I want to show you that the Quran does confirm the Bible by what I just said, that the Quran depends on the Bible. Without the Bible, you can't make sense out of the Quran. So you ready for some examples?
Speaker A
Go ahead. In Surah Maida chapter 5, verses 27 to 32, can you read that for me?
Speaker A
Chapter 5. Surah Maida chapter 5, 27-32. Read that for me. You can read and recite to them the story of the two sons of Adam. In truth, when they both offered a sacrifice to Allah and it was accepted from one of them but was not accepted from the other, the latter said, "I will surely kill you." The former said, "Indeed, Allah only accepts the righteous," in other words, those who fear Him.
Speaker A
Keep going.
Speaker A
Keep going. Verse 32: "If you should raise your hand against me to kill me, I shall not raise my hand against you to kill you. Indeed, I fear Allah, Lord of the worlds. Indeed, I want you to obtain thereby my sin and your sin. So you will be among the companions of the fire, and that is the recompense of the wrongdoers." And his soul permitted him to murder his brother. So he killed him and became among the losers.
Speaker A
Then Allah sent a crow searching in the ground to show him how to hide the disgrace of his brother. And he said, "Woe to me. I have failed to be like this crow and hide the body of my brother." And he became one of the regretful. Because of that, we decreed upon the children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption done in the land, it is as he has slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one, it is as he has saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them even after that throughout the land were transgressors.
Speaker A
My argument is the Quran needs the Bible. Without the Bible, you can't make sense out of it. So from the Quran, who are the two sons? What are their names?
Speaker A
Okay, so I'm going to answer. Who are they?
Speaker A
They are the sons of Adam.
Speaker A
And who are they? Does the Bible mention their height or their weight?
Speaker A
What has that got to do with who killed whom?
Speaker A
I agree. I agree. No one cares about height or weight. We want to know their identity because we want to know who's guilty of what. What are their names?
Speaker A
Actually, their names aren't necessarily needed to teach the lesson. You don't need a name.
Speaker A
That's not true.
Speaker A
Yes, you do. If you're appealing to the people at that time because it says the children of Israel. Where do you find that command given to the children of Israel? Surah 5:32.
Speaker A
I'll give you now. Now we're going—No, you're in the same passage because you're saying it needs it. It doesn't. Yes, because it assumes prior knowledge. That prior knowledge is the Bible. So your Quran depends on the Bible. So that makes my case because I'm going to ask you in Surah 5:32, where is that command found that was given to the children of Israel?
Speaker A
It's by God mentioning in the Quran what He has done in history to the children of Israel. Read the verse.
Speaker A
Yeah. Because of that, we decreed upon the children of Israel. God can tell where is that? Where's that found? God is telling us in the Quran, this is what He has done.
Speaker A
But is the children of Israel, right?
Speaker A
Yes, He has said that. So where in their source do you find that?
Speaker A
Okay, I'm going to answer. Go ahead. God doesn't need to say when I created Adam, for example. By the way, let me give you the reference where I talked about creating Adam to different prophets. He doesn't have to do that.
Speaker A
I'm just giving an example. He can simply say God can declare to His prophet Muhammad, in the past, I gave commands to the Israelites.
Speaker A
That's what He's saying. This is what I commanded them.
Speaker A
Confirmed that He did. Don't text wrong. Man, you're making my case without realizing it because this assumes prior knowledge of the previous scriptures so that the audience will know the detail by going to the Bible.
Speaker A
Or if they don't, or if they—So then how can they confirm that?
Speaker A
It's not saying you have to confirm anything.
Speaker A
No, if I'm a Jew or I'm a Christian and I read that, where am I going to go to confirm whether the Quran got it right?
Speaker A
And all I'm trying to say is that if God declares to His prophet, the prophet Muhammad or any other prophet, and says this is what I've done in the past, there's no need—You're inserting this idea that, well, that implies that He must have a reference, and if He doesn't have the reference, there's a problem. And I'm just simply saying you could just take a plain reading of the text and God is saying this is what I've done in the past. When the Quran mentions these stories without going into detail, yeah, it's because the Quran already assumes prior knowledge of this information that people had access to. So the question is, where do they find that information?
Speaker A
In the Bible. Great. Now, let's say God is speaking to—You're right, there's a Christian audience, a Jewish audience, but there's also a pagan audience.
Speaker A
Sure. They don't need any references. They can just see that God is revealing and telling His messenger.
Speaker A
No, they would too. There would—Let me say there's nothing wrong with God saying this is what I've declared in the past to the Israelites. If a completely ignorant pagan audience hears that, they don't need to insert everything. You're just saying what all they have to do is say, okay, so God is declaring that this is what happened in the past. That's fair.
Speaker A
Can I respond to that?
Speaker A
Of course.
Speaker A
Please. For a pagan to know that Muhammad is not making it up about the tales of the Jews and Christians, who do they go to to confirm whether Muhammad got it right? Maybe you're—Maybe what you're saying is—I think what you're thinking is that when they read this—
Speaker A
Yeah. And their goal is to look into history, right? Then who are they going to go to, right? But the thing I want to know is that Muhammad is not making it up, right?
Speaker A
Yeah. So, who do they go to? Here, in this particular verse—I'm just generally saying anytime the Quran mentions the history of the Jews and Christians, how are they going to know Muhammad is right?
Speaker A
Great question.
Speaker A
Yes. We're going to keep spinning in circles. So, if I'm a pagan, you're Muhammad.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
And you say to me, "This is what the sons of Adam did." Well, how do I know you're not making it up?
Speaker A
Yehudi, come here. Is he making it up?
Speaker A
No. Here's my Bible.
Speaker A
Oh, the Quran doesn't need to tell them to go to the Bible. The Quran is assuming the audience will have access to prior knowledge of
Speaker A
among the worlds oh my people uh enter the holy land which Allah has assigned to you and do not turn back from fighting in Allah's cause and thus become losers they said oh Moses indeed within it is a people of tyrannical
Speaker A
strength A and indeed we will never enter it until they leave it. But if they leave it, then we will enter.
Speaker A
So [clears throat] they're going to enter what land? Uh did it define it here? I think it's uh Mubarak is mentioned somewhere else.
Speaker A
The blessed land. Yeah. Where does the Quran mention? Jerusalem or Israel? I don't think the word Jerusalem is uh in the Quran that says the land is the children of Israel is mentioned.
Speaker A
That's different. Israel. So I wanted to know what land Allah gave as an inheritance of Israel. Where do I go to?
Speaker A
Um this the the Quran's like details. So where do I go to? Allah can I answer you?
Speaker A
Yeah I'm waiting. So when Allah says enter into a certain land we are not told the parameters the location the longitudinal latitude latitudinal. These details are not given in the Quran. That being said neither is it necessary. You're you're making the
Speaker A
assumption necessary. One second. No we can interact. But I'm letting you but mid mid sentence.
Speaker A
Can we get it from the Quran? No. No. Can we get it from the prophet? No. Can we get it from the children of Israel?
Speaker A
Now, now you have now you have now you have [clears throat] chapter 17 101 answers your dilemma.
Speaker A
Read it for me. Who do you ask when you need clarification for things? Okay. Sorry. Uh and we certainly uh and we had certainly given Moses nine evident signs. So ask the children of Israel about when uh he came to them and
Speaker A
Pharaoh said to him, "Indeed, I think, oh Moses, that you are affected by magic." Who do you ask when you want clarification about things related to Israel?
Speaker A
Now, we have finally gotten to a part that actually says, "Ask the children of Israel." Sure.
Speaker A
So, great. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with Now, when I want to know what land God gave to the Israelites, who do I ask?
Speaker A
It doesn't say ask them about that. Oh, you mean it's only limited to the nine signs?
Speaker A
I'm I'm trying to I'm sticking to the Quran. There's nothing wrong with God saying go ahead and ask the children of Israel about the miracles that they were given. That's fine.
Speaker A
Okay. So, okay. But I I thank you for confirming the chronic dilemma without you realizing. But thank you. Hopefully you'll come back to the truth of Jesus Christ. Now what's your question?
Speaker A
My question my question is is there something wrong with the Quran saying ask them about the signs of Moses?
Speaker A
What's the problem? No. It actually confirms the Quran depends on the Bible. That's the entire thesis of our discussion. So I'm glad the Quran does that. That means you're stuck with my Bible but I'm not stuck with your Quran. So if the pagan says
Speaker A
that story didn't happen, it's a lie. Then what? Uh well I don't want to go I don't know about this type of situation you're getting into. So, I want you to ask me a verse because you said he had verses.
Speaker A
I would like you to Okay. So, I know you you are very confident that you just established the Islamic dilemma, but I'm I'm going to pretend that the audience is on my side just for a second. Okay.
Speaker A
And uh you haven't brought a verse that actually shows that like I'm imagining again this young Christian man who really respects you, he wants to walk into a mosque or talk to his Muslim friend and say, "This is the verse that
Speaker A
shows that today's Bible is authentic." Now, if he brings what you want me to bring, just one second. If he brings 17101 and says, "See, here's proof and evidence that Muslims, you are encouraged to dialogue with the Israelites, Jews and Christians, ask
Speaker A
them to ask them questions, to ask them about the signs, then for for you to then extrapolate and say, and that is the evidence, that is a 100% proof that the entirety of the Bible is authentic." then that's clearly they're not going to
Speaker A
let me ask you a question so you understand my argument because I don't think I'm clear enough for you to get it.
Speaker A
If you're told to ask the children of Israel about the nine signs, but then their scriptur is corrupted. How can you trust them to tell you what the signs are when their source is defective?
Speaker A
Fantastic. Good. I I would love to answer that. So, the good thing is that we do not make the claim that everything in their book is 100% inauthentic. We don't make that statement in Islam. Yeah, I know you
Speaker A
in Islam what we say is that it was revealed like scripture was revealed to Moses to Jesus and that they have passed it on even though there are verses that clearly demonstrate that or uh corruption has we can get into that I know what you're
Speaker A
talking about 79 379 we'll get there perfect so despite the fact that there has been done we are not claiming that everything they have uh they have with them is completely corrupted so there's nothing wrong with us going up to these
Speaker A
people and saying isn't it the case that this has happened to you and if we look at the broader context it's it's reminding them of the blessings things that God has given and they know this.
Speaker A
Okay. So now, how do you know those parts of their scripture is incorrupt? What do you use?
Speaker A
The Quran. Exactly. Circular reasoning. Good job. So you Well, let me explain. You're absolutely right. I do depend upon the Quran. I do believe in a circular fashion. Because when the Quran needs to be bailed out, go ask
Speaker A
them. But when it then contradicts the Quran, oh, that's when your scriptur is corrupt. Now, let me give you a verse about the Torah.
Speaker A
That's what an authority. Let's start with the Torah. First of all, who's the Torah given to? Uh Allah, excuse me, the prophet told us the Torah was given to Mus Alam.
Speaker A
Can you give me the verse where it says the Torah was given the Quran to Moses Kir in his ex Jesus quoting Bkari 7157 citing a passage that's not the Torah but it's resembles Isaiah and he says that in the understanding the Torah was
Speaker A
used for all the scriptures of the people of the book not just the books of Moses. That's why I say don't go to the hadith you're going to make my case. So do you agree according to the Salaf the
Speaker A
word Torat was not limited to the books of Moses but all the scriptures? Yes. So I can I can ask you.
Speaker A
No. But do you agree? I'm answering you. Okay. Good. Thank you. Thank you. So uh we know that the word Torah could be translated as law or instructions. Right. So it could be a reference to specifically what was
Speaker A
given to Moses. And you're right that amongst the setup there is a there is a quote that is talking about how this law could be used or this term Torah could be referenced to the law in general. So
Speaker A
it could be specific. Not law in general. It says the scriptures Jewish law. Excuse me.
Speaker A
No, no, not Jewish law. Scriptures. Cuz I'm going to bring it up if you don't want to bring it up.
Speaker A
You can bring up whatever you like. My point is that this doesn't establish the Islamic dilemma in any way whatsoever.
Speaker A
You can you can keep saying that. That's fine. I'm not here to convince you. Do you agree that when you go outside of the Quran, the Torah now refers to the scriptures and the possession of Jews and Christians or do I need to bring out the
Speaker A
references? May I answer? Can you answer? Yes. I'm waiting. 45. Perfect. He's going to tell you what it had.
Speaker A
So, let's I'm I'm still waiting for the Islamic. Uh, and we ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds
Speaker A
is legal retribution. For whoever gives up his right as charity, it is an expation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, then it is those who are wrongdoers.
Speaker A
So whatever the Torah was, it tells you that it contains this passage that's in Exodus 22 21:22 to2. So I don't need to go to time machine. The Quran brought the time machine to me.
Speaker A
Perfect. And we sent following in their footsteps Jesus the son of Mary confirming that which came before him in the Torah. Give us why is Jesus being mentioned at the time of Muhammad to the Jews? What's the context? You know the
Speaker A
context of it. We just read it verse 45. But can you repeat it? I want you want to read the verse again. Go ahead. Just just make your point. I I read you asked me to read the context a
Speaker A
rebuke to the Jews. Don't come to Muhammad. Go to the Torah. Why? Because this is the Torah that was used by the prophets, rabbis. because I use 45 to show you whatever Torah they had has a verse that we can now verify to see if
Speaker A
that verse is in my Torah today. I can see that. Yeah. Number one. So then I want to establish because you're saying I haven't. I'm establishing it. So my question is why is Jesus being mentioned in the context of the Torah saying that
Speaker A
this is the Torah he had before him? What's the context? Why is the Quran mentioning that? to let us know that we sent following in their footsteps Jesus son of Mary confirming that which came before them in the Torah so that we know
Speaker A
it so that we learn this if you look what so that we learn about this is teaching us what happened in no the context is 43 which you haven't read and how is it that they come to you for
Speaker A
judgment while they have the Torah in which is the judgment of Allah now see now we're getting somewhere keep reading okay uh then they turn away even after that but those are not in fact the believers good okay so now that we read the context.
Speaker A
It's telling the Jews go to the Torah and then what does it present to them why they should go to the Torah?
Speaker A
I I do you do realize that when you say it's talking about the context that came everything you just we just quoted was after this. So when usually when they say context you're saying before this my apologies I assume that you knew the
Speaker A
Islamic dilemma because you've been studying it [laughter] right you've been saying that right I'm the granddaddy. So I thought you knew this.
Speaker A
I said, "Oh Jesus, forgive me. I thought you knew the context." But nonetheless, in this context, why is Jesus being mentioned? Then it mentions the prophets and rabbis. What point is the Quran trying to drive to the Jews?
Speaker A
Would you like to answer? I've been waiting. Okay. Fantastic. So in this particular verse, Allah is saying, "And how is it that they come to you for judgment while they have the Torah in which is the judgment of Allah?" Now
Speaker A
in the context that Jesus was mentioned and then prior to that prophets are mentioned. Yes. Who judged by it? What is the Quran's point? What is it trying to get to the Jews by mentioning the prophets and Jesus appealing to the
Speaker A
Torah? Yes. All right. This verse is asking a question and highlighting the fact that they are making the claim that they have the full Torah and yet they are going to the prophet as well.
Speaker A
You even added to the text. They didn't make no claim. They said, "Why do they come to you for judgment? You're even misrepresenting the context. They went to Muhammad for a legal issue. Correct.
Speaker A
Now, if you want to go to your commentators, it's because someone committed adultery. Okay. Okay. So, it's not saying we have the full Torah. They're trying to ignore the Torah. It's your prophet saying, "You better go to the Torah."
Speaker A
No. Read it for me. It's a question. It's a question asking how is it the case? [laughter] Yeah. How is the case? What?
Speaker A
How is it the case? Yes. that they're coming to you and they have the Torah that has the judgment of God.
Speaker A
Thank you for confirming my point so I can answer the question. Yes, I did it, but I'll do it again.
Speaker A
No, no, no. The question of why appeal to the prophets and Jesus to the Jews at the time Muhammad? What is it trying to get to? Now, if you don't know the answer, I'll give it to you and then you can try your best to
Speaker A
refute it because I'm still waiting for the answer. You know the answer? Are you good?
Speaker A
No, just go ahead. The reason why the prophets, rabbis are Jesus mentioned, is to tell the Jews, if the Torah was good enough for them to judge by, it's good enough for you. So I'm going to ask you something.
Speaker A
In that chain of transmission from Jesus to the prophets to the Jews, when did corruption take place?
Speaker A
So now that we know the context, that's why I went here and here because I'm trying to keep you on track. The context of surah 543-48 is to convince the Jews, judge by your Torah. Don't go to Muhammad for this
Speaker A
decision because your Torah has a guidance. And then it gives Jesus and the prophets an example that they too judge by the Torah. So my question in light of that is from Jesus to the time of Muhammad. It shows they had the same
Speaker A
Torah because it says he's confirming this Torah that you have. When did corruption take place from the time of Jesus and Muhammad? If I could jump into a time machine and tell you every person that made a textual variant, then I
Speaker A
could tell you exactly why God in the Quran has to make textual edits or conscious edits, I could tell you that.
Speaker A
But I don't know. I can't go into a time machine and show you every time somebody made an edit or made a mistake. What I can tell you is you're absolutely correct that is Alisam, Jesus, he was given inspiration, revelation of the
Speaker A
Torah, which means the law, and he knew Jewish law better than anybody. And so he taught that at his time. that is being asserted in it was either 45 or 46. Fine. I grant that. That's fantastic.
Speaker A
Now, you made the comment that doesn't have anything to do with today's Bible. I'm sorry. You want to say that no, no, no. Therefore, today's Bible must be 100% authentic because you know that it's impossible that anybody made an
Speaker A
edit or something like this. You can make you can make whatever assertions you'd like. I'm simply saying that let's stick to Islamic dilemma is that the Quran you have to find the verse that actually You mean like the 12 verses I already
Speaker A
found for you? I'm I'm I'm happy that you feel that way, but uh I'm saying realistically speaking, thus far, in my opinion, the one that you landed on that has the best shot is uh 543. Can you do
Speaker A
me a favor? And 543 still doesn't land because it's a question and not a theological assertion.
Speaker A
Can you do me a favor? I'd love to do you a favor. Well, I want to say it respectfully. No one cares whether you're convinced or not. I'm not doing this for you.
Speaker A
I know you're doing it for the audience, right? So, but and they're way they're sitting there like this like, okay, because you have omissions. You know, you know that. Oh, yeah. See, they're not convinced. Keep that rhetoric. Sure.
Speaker A
For someone else, politicians who fear God here, I'm going to say fear Allahbar. Okay, now come here. I'm glad you just committed.
Speaker A
Do you do you know what? My Lord Messiah. That's He just committed. No. Okay, now let's go back to you. You want me to give you another verse?
Speaker A
The word of Jesus. I agree. Jesus. Can I give you another verse? How long we got for this? because I'm I got like I'm going to have a field day.
Speaker A
We can keep going. This is fantastic. Okay. So, uh you can go to the next verse in one second.
Speaker A
Yes. Any Christian that wants to take five uh sorry 545 or 46 and say, "Look, it says that Jesus had the Torah and that he knew use it because it pulverizes the objections. Glory to Jesus." All right.
Speaker A
Say, "I can appeal to motion two." Can you go to You're going to walk up to a Muslim and say, "This is 100% evidence that today's Bible is authentic." And the Muslim will say, "Actually, it just says that Jesus
Speaker A
was given the inspiration to know God's law perfectly at that time." The law that the Jews have, right?
Speaker A
The Torah, that they had, right? The Torah. Yes. And he confirmed that, right? That that Jesus was was was uh given that revelation.
Speaker A
So that that he was confirming what they had when he went to the Jews. I confirmed the Torah that's between us.
Speaker A
Well, actually there's a there's a particular verse that uh says that he confirmed what they had, but also did uh what's it called?
Speaker A
So it's a different verse. So that means that he did the exact same thing that the Quran does.
Speaker A
Yeah. But abregating previous commands doesn't mean it's corrupted. That doesn't make sense. And then you say your Quran is corrupted because the Quran abrogates itself. So we don't want to go there. Let's stay here. Right.
Speaker A
Excellent. Well, right. If you're going to say abrogation means corruption, that means your Quran is corrupt because the Quran abrogates itself.
Speaker A
No. No. So So let's not go there. When God says that he does or that he makes permissible, I I can agree with you that there's a range of meaning here. It could be it could be it could be
Speaker A
that either there was a certain law and now it's being abregated. It could be that they had corruption. That's what I was talking about. Could be that they had corruption.
Speaker A
That's not what 350 says. But nonetheless, I'm simply saying there's a range of meaning. So if you want to take both, but I don't want to get there. Let's go to chahiman.
Speaker A
A ayah 81. Read for me. 381. I'm going to make my case weaker in your sight. So oh man, this is so weak. I'm going to keep you in verses. You're going to keep saying it's weak. Surah 3:81.
Speaker A
And recall, oh people, the scripture, when Allah took the covenant of the prophet, saying, "Whatever I have given you of scripture and wisdom, and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you must believe in him and support him." You
Speaker A
want to keep going? And Allah, Allah said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that my commitment?" Let's say, "Yeah, exactly." Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
What's What's the problem here? Yeah. God is speaking to his prophets. They said, "We have acknowledged it." He said, "Uh, then bear witness and I am with you among the witnesses." this covenant with the prophets. In order to know this messenger is the one
Speaker A
Allah sent, he has to confirm what is with them, right? The messengers confirm each other.
Speaker A
That's what's being said. No, that's great question. I love you. I swear I love you for the sake of Jesus.
Speaker A
Okay. But now then don't roast. Just let's talk. I am trying to talk. I'm trying to because you're telling me I'm not doing this and that. So I'm trying to make it clear and Okay.
Speaker A
Yeah. Here it says to the prophets. Prophets. Yes. A messenger will come. Yeah. He's going to confirm what is with you.
Speaker A
Confirm. Yeah. What is with the prophets? Yeah. Absolutely. I'm going to get there. When was that covenant fulfilled?
Speaker A
Oh. Uh, which which of these prophets? When was the covenant? Whichever prophet you like. I grant the messenger. Who's the messenger?
Speaker A
I grant you whichever prophet you like that all prophets I want to know what you think cuz I don't want my opinion cuz I can go to the taps.
Speaker A
I say guys read this verse and understand that God So you don't want to answer the question?
Speaker A
No, no. I'm I'm I'm I'm being honest with you. I'm reading it as a plain text and I'm simply saying that there was a covenant given to prophets and the covenant is you have to acknowledge all the prophets that this and whatever
Speaker A
revelation particular messenger no it's one messenger it's not messengers when the messenger comes who is that uh yeah the prophet Muhammad say it again the prophet Muhammad s I thought you were talking about that's why so when it
Speaker A
says I'm saying all prophets yeah the criterion I want to repeat it slowly so you don't stamman me Okay, criterion is this is how you know he's that messenger. He's going to confirm what's with you, Jesus.
Speaker A
Read it again, brother. [laughter] What are you saying? Just guys, read the text. Just read it.
Speaker A
Read it slowly. And recall when Allah took a covenant with the prophets. Yes. To do what?
Speaker A
To do what? Whatever I give you of the scriptures, let me make sure I got this right. Uh, whatever I give you, it's plural, so it's not just you. It's whatever I give y'all. Whatever I give all of you prophets, right? Whenever I
Speaker A
give you them this scripture, Then comes to you the messenger and you're right referring to the Muhammad that is confirming what was given to those prophets.
Speaker A
Exactly. That was what I just said. You go and you laughed at me. Did I not just say that? No. Well, I like the way you laugh. You laugh better than me. But did I not just say that's
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what it said? And you said no. Read it. And you just read and confirm what I said.
Speaker A
Okay. Uh I have to go back to clip and see what I thought was odd. But you said something. You made an assertion what I said. The messenger you said is Muhammad.
Speaker A
Yeah. If he comes to Jesus, how's Jesus going to know it's him? He's going to confirm what he has, right?
Speaker A
If they if the prophet Muhammad went back in time to the time of Jesus, yes, they would have the revelation this from one source. The revelation that's coming to Jesus is the same revelation coming to Muhammad. Yes.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. I know that. But so do you agree though? Just establish the principle because I can't make the point if you're going.
Speaker A
Do you establish a princip? No. No. No. You're doing good. I'm just saying you're good. Okay. Just answer the question. You're doing good. So, you agree that the messenger, if he were to come in the lifetime of any of them,
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let's say Moses walking around, he shows up. He goes, "I'm that messenger." Well, how do I know that? I confirm what you have. Now, would Moses have corrupt scriptures with Of course not. And with Wait, no. You said it too fast.
Speaker A
Would Moses have corrupt scriptures? Of course not. No. Would Jesus? No. Of course not. No, there must be.
Speaker A
Okay. Now, the prophets passed away, but this passage still awaits a fulfillment, right? That Allah is saying that he took a covenant with the prophets. That's because he's going to come.
Speaker A
True. Now, did he come? The prophet Muhammad. Yeah. According to the verse. Okay. But what we see, I want you to see where I'm going with this.
Speaker A
Go ahead. Because everyone heard you. I want this to be clear. Yes. If he was there with Moses, he would confirm what Moses had. And you said, "Yeah, Moses would not have had corrupt scriptures. Neither would Jesus." So my
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question is, yes. Did Allah fulfill that covenant? Did Allah send a messenger Muhammad with true revelation that the prophets took a covenant of and all of their scriptures agree with the exception of course of Sharia and yeah we can change that was8
Speaker A
I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad you by the way this is great I appreciate I appreciate that you're fair enough to say like I get your point that yeah Sharia can change but by and large the same of course they have the same
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messenger okay now but when he came there were no prophets correct how were the community of the prophets know that he's that messenger they're already passed away.
Speaker A
That's I understand. But this is given not just for the prophets, right? For their followers. So that they'll know this is the messenger that the prophets made a covenant of.
Speaker A
Yes. Yes. This is a this is a this is how would they know? Yeah.
Speaker A
How would they know that? That's the messenger that our prophet said we took a covenant that when he comes we're going to help him. So if he shows up, follow him. How would they know that they're followers?
Speaker A
Because we believe as mentioned in 7157 that the prophet Muhammad wasallam remains in the scriptures that they have. But that doesn't now let me clear.
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Let me let me make my point. This neither 7157 affirm a 100% clear uh uh uh uh what's it called? U preservation of the Bible till today.
Speaker A
Okay. So you're right. You're right that we do assert that within the scriptures certain descriptions of the prophet Muhammad have been maintained.
Speaker A
All right. Can I answer now? Please. Thank you. Thank you for letting You forgot what you said earlier. I want to repeat what you said. You said that if he comes to the prophets, he's going to confirm what they have. And I said,
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"What do they have? Corrupt scriptures." You said, "No." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so sorry.
Speaker A
You know, you changed the meaning and saying, "Well, now that they're gone." Yeah. He's going to come to their communities.
Speaker A
Yep. And yet the criterion was for them to know that this is the messenger. He has to confirm what the prophets had, which you say they didn't have. Let me explain between them or their communities.
Speaker A
But then how was this fulfilled? Let me explain my argument because maybe it's um just don't pivot. This verse, let's stick to the verse. This isn't talking about their communities. This verse is talking about the prophets.
Speaker A
When was it fulfilled? When the prophets agreed and took the covenant with God that they will practice what let me say that again.
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I'm I'm I'm I'm asserting you. I'm asserting what we're saying. When when was this fulfilled? When God took a covenant with his messengers that a fulfilled fulfill let me say fulfill what is revealed to you and know what will come in the future of new
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prophets. None of that is a guarantee. You misread the verse. Do you want to repeat it again?
Speaker A
You're the one that insert. I just want to make it clear for the audience that you asserted the verse very perfectly when you said that it's the prophets making this uh uh assertion that the prophet will come that the prophet
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Muhammad will eventually come. That was perfect. And then you said if he went back in time, would they be in agreement? 100%.
Speaker A
But then you said, "Oh, and therefore as time went forward then therefore uh every community is going to be able to assert 100% of everything." No, no, we just you used to jump in too much. I want to repeat what you said. I'm going
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by what you're saying, but I don't know if you're keeping up what you're saying.
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I said, did the messenger come? You said yes. I go when the prophets were weren't around.
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Correct. So, let me repeat my question light of that. Since he came to fulfill 381, right? Are we following the argument?
Speaker A
No. What you say? Did this messenger ever come? Let me or this is superfluous. It didn't it didn't happen. Allah failed to send him.
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Can I answer? Well, I'm waiting. It's been time. 381. Yes. It was fulfilled when God, as it says, took a covenant from his prophets.
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That's when it gets fulfilled. Control of my son listening to me. He thinks I'm not.
Speaker A
Mhm. The fulfillment is when the messenger comes. See, this is why we and he keeps going back to it was fulfilled when he gave the covenant to the prophets. No, the fulfillment is when he comes.
Speaker A
It says, what is who is who are they? It is confirming of who is with help me Lord. Help me. I know that I prayed for patience and you're testing my patience. Thank you, Lord Jesus.
Speaker A
Okay, let's come back. Just read. Just read it. I've been reading it. Okay, I'm going to go by what you just said one more time.
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Okay. He never came in the lifetime of the prophets, right? Uh, no. Okay. But he was still sent as Allah promised right?
Speaker A
Yes, sir. Good. So, we got that part. Yep. How were the people of the prophets to know this is the one that Jesus said, "I took a covenant with my Lord." We're going to go with this Muslim Jesus.
Speaker A
I took a covenant with my Lord. I'm waiting for this messenger. And when he comes, he's going to confirm what I have. But he didn't come in Jesus lifetime, but he would have told the apostle. Oh, not apostles. They're
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followers right? Yes. So, how would they then know that's the one that Jesus told us about? What was the criteria given here? Not 7157, but go to that because because Well, well, you just told me don't go 717.
Speaker A
No, because that's going to help my case. I want to make it easier for you to defeat.
Speaker A
I'm helping you that yes, 71. You're saying it's helping your case. Let me help your case then.
Speaker A
No, I want you to defeat me. No, no, I want to help your case. Let's go for it. You're I agree with you. 7157 says that despite the fact Well, I'm going to put this in brackets. Despite the fact that there have been
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unfortunate corruptions, 714 I didn't even say that, but that's okay. I know. I just said in brackets. I'm just I'm trying giving you my perspective because you want my perspective here. So, let's put this in brackets. despite the fact that
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corruptions have taken place. Now 7157 is saying at least they didn't corrupt the fact that the prophet Muhammad wasallam was is still described in your Bible.
Speaker A
Yeah, that's not 381. That's why I have to repeat it again. So 381 is specifically saying that this was a covenant taken with prophets and it is confirming what was with them. And what did you say though was that means what did they have?
Speaker A
They had scripture. They had revelation from God at their time. No, of course not.
Speaker A
Good. Now let's follow the logic. Yes. Because you went to surah 7157 the prophecies timeline went forward. At least they held on to the prediction about the prophet. Does that mean everything they held on to? No.
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381. That's it. 381 doesn't say confirming the predictions that are with you. No, it's it's No, it says confirming what is with you. You prophets. And I don't know if I'm making it clear. Maybe it's I'm just stupid.
Speaker A
I'm slow. I can't make my point cuz I don't think you're getting it. Yeah, cuz you're making my case, but you're not getting it. But it's okay. I'm going to go slow because I know I'm stupid.
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So, I'll go a little slower. What did they have with them? You said uncorrupt scriptures right?
Speaker A
Well, you you asked me many times. Yes. But we're we're you're not following the logic or I'm too slow in communicating again. So, I'm going to ask you again in light of that statement. When Jesus says to his community, look, I made a
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covenant with my Lord, a messenger is going to come. Yes. He's going to confirm what's with me.
Speaker A
Now, what was with Jesus? Corrupt or uncorrupt scriptures. You speaking when Jesus at his time was definitely uh authentic perfect when he comes and says I confirm what you have I'm confirming your scriptures uncorrupt I have to follow him but he
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didn't come in his lifetime so now if I have that understanding this is what I'm going to assume all right for that messenger to be the one that Jesus told me about he's going to confirm what was given to Jesus what was given to Jesus
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is uncorrupt scriptures and we claim those are the scriptures but if he says it's corrupt that means he's a false messenger cuz that's not what he's going to say according to what Allah said. He can't say my scriptures are corrupt if
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he's that messenger. Do you get the argument now? Yes. Uh I guess so. How can they be corrupted? Because that will be an argument against Muhammad. Wait, wait, they're corrupted.
Speaker A
You're not the one. Bye. Right now you get the argument. Uh yeah, I think so.
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Can refute it. Okay, good stuff. So there's nothing wrong with making conscious just the same way Jesus made corrections to the beni is while still confirming them and saying listen you have made mistakes so he's confirming them while
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simultaneously correcting them that correcting what correcting their beliefs and their ideas and that's not the scriptures man so you attack we know traditions can be corrupt do you understand the argument because if Muhammad comes to the Jews and
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Christians and say your scriptures are corrupt saying then you're a false messenger because the messenger that we're told was to come will confirm the scriptures of the prophets and we are the inheritors. So if you say it's corrupt, you're a fake messenger out of
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here. Good. So now etc. What must you confirm that you have to believe in him? That you have to aid him that this is what's being confirmed about them. He has to confirm what's with them.
Speaker A
Yes. You just said what was with them is uncrup scriptures. Why are you changing it?
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Okay. I I I I I'm I'm at this point I'm not sure if you're following or not getting the I'm kind of stupid. So help me because you know I think very very intelligent but I just think that it's pretty obvious what I'm
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saying. But I'll make it clear. Hold on. You did say scriptures is uncorrupt and he's going to confirm they're uncorrupt. Right. You said that several times. It's recorded.
Speaker A
Let me let me say it. Let me let me let me say exactly what I'm trying to say so you don't put words in my mouth. Okay.
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What I'm simply saying is that this verse 381 is saying that prophets in the past, right? What did they do? They confirmed that there will be a prophet Muhammad. Okay, good. They had correct beliefs that are in conformity with the
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prophet Muhammad throughout time. Even if corruptions did take place, thank God. Thank God the description of the prophet Muhammad wasallam is still preserved. And therefore, the Christians and Jews can look at their book and say, "Oh my goodness,
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he is described in here." Which books? They can look in their scriptures. I'm speaking generally here.
Speaker A
Which ones? You want me to list everything? No. So, so what I'm saying is they can look into their scriptures and when they find that the prophet Muhammad has been predicted and that he is going to do what
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you you're aware of this. He is going to You don't want to go to Mah, do you?
Speaker A
We can if you want to. It's fine if you want to. I want to be merciful to you. I don't want you to go to uh you're I love I love the confidence. But that being said, just the same way. So Allah is
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affirming that this is and it is confirming partially and is also being the notice he had the word partially right.
Speaker A
I want you to see adds to the Quran. Oh my goodness. No, no, I just want people to know because the Quran I'm just trying to let me make I'm letting you make your point.
Speaker A
I'm saying dual function. You're doing dual function. You you're doing what 378 accused the Jews and Christians changing the text by your tongue. You kept adding to the Quran and this is a sin against your God according to chapter 3 verse 78. But
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that's okay if you want to add sin upon sin and face your Lord in judgment.
Speaker A
That's between you and him. Is this preaching or not? No. Well, I'm going to preach like preaching. Now come back to the issue.
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You don't let me talk. You're didn't let me get through the through the sentence.
Speaker A
Good. I'll give you another 20 minutes. Go ahead. Thank you so much. I appreciate the 20 minutes.
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Is a dual function that the Quran has. In this verse 381, God is saying, "Look, all of you messengers have taken a covenant to fulfill what is given to you and to affirm what is in the future." That was at their time.
Speaker A
Okay, great. As time went forward, unfortunately, corruptions took place as God affirms in the Quran by talking about. We haven't got to those ay yet, but we can go to please. You said 20 minutes. It hasn't been one. Hasn't been
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one. I love you, my brother. Humanity, finish, I'm listening. I can talk and listening. Go.
Speaker A
Is proving corruption and conscious edits is proving corruption. But does that mean that they cannot find the prophet Muhammad sallallam? Yes, they can. And that is proven in this verse and it is proven in 757 that those descriptions of the prophet Muhammad
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sallallam are present. So we have no problem with this. Okay. So now can I address you cuz you repeat the same point several times and I'm letting you talk because I know what your point is.
Speaker A
In 381 you said I want everyone to hear it especially. I want them to hear it.
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Yes. You said that what he's going to confirm is what they have and what they have is uncorrupt scriptures. We establish that at that time. Yes. Good. Fine.
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But he never came in their lifetime. Correct. So if I'm a Christian, so I want to make my point again.
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If you assume that there's never been a chance that anybody could corrupt anything despite the fact that you guys have multiple versions of the Bible today, just like you have multiple. Yes. We'll have a find with the Kat and the Let's
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not change the top. Sure. So we we know that there's textual variance. This is very wellnown. So you can't pretend that this is like wait a second. How is it possible? Look man, we know radiant variant readings means the book
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is corrupt. retire your Quran because you have different Arabic versions of the manic text. I don't want to change the topic.
Speaker A
You just did because you understand because you brought up textual variance. Yeah. Because we're talking about the Bible and whether it was you're you're you're pretending that it cannot be conceivable that there are scribal that there hold on. You're pretending it's inconceivable
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that there were scribal errors. It's conceivable that they could have corrupted their text. Well, there are scribal errors in the manuscripts of the Quran.
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Allahbar. I'm glad. So there you go. No, don't change the subject. Just yes or no.
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Quranic dilemma is about No. No. Exactly. Islamic dilemma. This this is this is a dodge my friend.
Speaker A
Good stuff. What is a dodge is when you say dilemma. Just remember now remember audience how he's now dodgeball. Okay let's come back here.
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If textual variants mean the Bible's corrupt textual variant of the Quran that means again you're only bearing the Quran because at the time of Jesus let me make my point.
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There were variant readings of the Old Testament and he still confirmed the Old Testament great as being the words of God irrespective of variant readings. So the analogy I'm giving you, just like you as a Muslim, that's a beautiful concession.
Speaker A
Okay, but let me finish that point. Thank you. That just Thank you. Just like you Muslims don't say the Quran is corrupt because there are different that are not identical.
Speaker A
Interesting. So variations doesn't mean that the words that God inspired are lost. They're preserved. Great.
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That's why I don't want to go into variance. Great. Now you didn't let me make my point. Let me come to my point. I'll let you talk.
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Okay. Let's go to 381. So then I can go to 7157. It's not going to help you.
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And then fly 40. I want to follow your track. See, I'm trying to lose weight, so I'm jumping with you.
Speaker A
Let's jump together. Okay, now let's go to 3 381. If you jump too high, we're going to fall in love. This is dangerous.
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[laughter] We know singing is haram, but I want to sing. I'm all out of Okay, let's come back here.
Speaker A
I don't know what you're saying, but that's okay. I said singing is haram, but anyway, coming back here.
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Music is haram. My singing is haram. [laughter] Can I May I? This is nice, isn't it? This is nice.
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There we go. I told you. I swear I'm not trying to I wasn't trying to play games with I was never trying. And I'm not I'm not trying to play games with you.
Speaker A
No, I know that, buddy. Believe me, I have love for you. I mean, I'm not just saying it to say law. This is a I don't want to not like you. Let me let me put it that way. You get my point. I I I
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want us to be fine and I and even more important than just me and you. I want us to show people that we can be fine.
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I Let him ask me that question. I'll answer it here. I do see sometimes that you use derogatory language and uh you've used it towards me and and I'm not trying to make a some sort of twisted sort of ugly thing about it. I actually
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would like us to be on good terms and I would like for Brian to to create a platform where dialogues are very healthy and I really would love for you to address it so we could like hug it
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out to be perfectly honest. So go ahead. Yes. Tell them what you heard me say so I can really want to say it.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. No, no, I want you because Yeah. We're going to come. Uh so unfortunately uh again not just to me but there has been an incident where he talks about being a son of a and uses a derogatory term basically meaning
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prostitute. And so I addressed that online. It's got lots and lots of views. People uh saw that and um uh I I thought you should I mean you're you're a Christian. You're a man of God.
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You're you're you're a man of God. And I just think you a lot of people look up to you. You want to set a good example.
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And my I I don't know if you watch you didn't watch my video, but I explained that I my mother's actually an extremely practicing Christian. Her being a Muslim shouldn't make that better. Like it's okay to insult her,
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but like it's even weirder when Christians are cheerleading a Christian woman being assault that way. So go ahead.
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I want to [clears throat] apologize. Please forgive me. I do. I know sometimes I get heated, but one thing is and that's not justification.
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Okay, I'm trying I'm going to say try not to say it anymore because this was understood.
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Forgive me and I want I'm not saying to put on a show. It's because after talking with him, I have a lot of love for you, brother.
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Can I give him a hug? Yeah, I mean it's maybe let's uh let's hide my love handles.
Speaker A
[laughter] I do. I have a lot of love for you. Thank you. That's very mean that from my heart. That's very beautiful. I think we we live at a time that has a lot of unnecessary tension and we can we can
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stuff you know and so no just excuse when I call someone a son of a I'm not referring to their mother I know no honestly Revelation 17 and I'm not going to justify it forgive me I won't talk about it anymore I won't use
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it because Revelation 17 says if you don't belong to Christ you belong to Satan and you belong to the Babylonian system so there it says Babylon the great the mother of forgive me thank I won't even call a Muslim mother
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a And I'm not just saying in front of you guys. I don't do that. In fact, I've been taking a lot of punches because of my stance against Israel. And also speaking out for the innocent Palestinians who are being killed. God
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bless. I'm known for that. And I'm not saying it to try to get you to like me. You hate me. I'm a kafir. May God have mercy on me. I don't go to hell. But you understand. So forgive me.
Speaker A
Thank you. Thank you. That's the context. And and let me say I'll say something hopefully that you might appreciate as well that um one thing that I like to talk to when I do interfaith dialogues and I meet with the
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pastors and so forth I always say don't forget blessed be the peacemaker. Yes sir.
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And the term maker is not peace wisher. Yeah. Right. So it's not you just hope for it.
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No peacemaker means that the the Christian the real Christian those that I really see as like trying their best to you know actually be real Christians they don't like to see exactly what you just said. So thank God that there are
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good people represent. I'm I actually really appreciate this dialogue. Good brother. No, no, really. I actually appreciate this dialogue. I feel like the the the tension, even if it goes up and down, I feel like this is much
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healthier. Yes. Uh and I I appreciate your generosity in many different areas instead of trying to do sort of somewhat cheap gotcha tricks, you're actually trying to understand more contextually. So, thank you very much.
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But what I want to get you to follow your own line. I'm following you. 381 Muhammad is going to confirm what Jesus has. And what he has is uncorrupt scripture, not corrupt.
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That's Yeah. Since he's not there when Muhammad comes, if I'm a Christian and then Jesus says to me, look, the messenger didn't come in my lifetime, here's how you're going to know him and pass it on. He's going to confirm my
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scriptures which are entrusted to you. Can I can I please can I please go ahead?
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So, what was is going to happen is that they will look into their scripture.
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They will find a confirmation of a prophet to come and then that prophet will confirm so much of what so much of it.
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No, I'm I'm trying to repeat this. Make sure I'm getting you. We're going to keep it. We're going to No, I'm just trying to get you so much.
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Okay. Okay. Are you If you want percentages, I'm sorry. I'm not going to give percentages. But when you go through these texts of the Jews and Christians, yes, so much of it is in line. However, then there will be verses where the
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Quran is clarifying that look, you guys haven't kept this 100% since the time of Jesus. I'm sorry. There has been and there are in the Quran conscious edits to clarify and that's why the Quran is and it has a dual function of confirming
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what is still correct that you guys have and cor and and uh what's it called?
Speaker A
Yeah. Being in authority and correcting what you guys have wrong. So that's not a big deal what you're I know you're making a big deal of this but I want to make it clear that foundationally they will be able to recognize the prophet
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Muhammad and then there will be certain things that will be clarified. Now wait a second. Are you saying that oh you know what I won't even let's just go. I don't want to interrupt. Let me go with I'm going to use there. That would
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actually be all the more reason for Christians say you're an antichrist because you didn't get my No, I'm just telling you just like you call Paul an antichrist. Come on. We you think Paul corrupt. Well, you know, I don't get
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upset. That's your religious beliefs. You're okay. So, because you're saying when you say that about Paul, we say but anyway, coming back to the issue. Let's keep it here.
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If a prophet comes and says to me, yeah, that part is true, that part is corrupt.
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I'll say all the more reason you're a fake prophet. that's not helping your case because this is supposed to be an argument to convince the Jews and Christians.
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So the argument I'm establishing if Jesus says to me so I'm gonna make it then we're going to go to 548 because I know you want to go get there. We're going to have fun with that one. Mo
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I'm already having fun. Okay. I know I'm having fun but I'm having more fun. Okay. If Jesus says to him look God took a covenant with me. A messenger is going to come. He's going to confirm what I have. So then I say,
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"Jesus, you mean he's going to do conscious edits to your scripture?" No, no, no. He's going to confirm what I have.
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Oh, you mean he's gonna say it's what I have. Okay. Well, I'm going to get there.
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What I have? Yeah. But if he doesn't come, but he comes in your lifetime, you have to follow him. But Jesus told me, the way I'm going to know that messenger is he's going to confirm the scripture of
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Jesus that are uncorrupt. And since now it's entrusted to his community. Yeah. If he now comes and says corrupt, you're not the one that Jesus told us about because the messenger that was to come is to confirm what we have. Not do
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conscious edits. You're not him by is the verb is the verb you're looking for. They were entrusted with their scripture.
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That's I'm not even talking about that. I'm talking I want to make clear I want to make clear for the audience that that you you are correct. They were entrusted with their scripture. Unfortunately, corruptions have taken place. I do
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believe that. One second. One second. I do I do believe that uh Bible scholars will very comfortably go Please man you just keep on taking what am I saying something I love you man don't [laughter] appeal to motion man
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just just I'm done I'm done go ahead your point so biblical scholars will very comfortably let us know that yes there's variance and there's difference of opinion and the canonization has a very sketchy history etc etc but the good thing is
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that when it comes to the vast majority of what is still preserved we can look at it and we can specifically find the prophet Muhammad in the Bible.
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So therefore, even if some corruption took place, that's okay because when Allah says, "Yes, someh did take place, but the broad message and by the way, I I know I don't want to go on this tangent, but I I also want to make it
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clear that it's going to clarify things so that the things that people are having trouble with, like for example, there are certain mysteries you find in the Bible that people don't can't make sense of." And so they're like, "We want
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to hold on to the scripture, but is it corrupted? Is it the case that we can't make sense of this? How does this make sense?" And so, thank God that I'm going to confirm that the prophet Muhammad is
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authentic that you'll be able to find him in your scripture. And to those issues that seem contradictory in the Bible to those issues that seem illogical in the Bible, you will be able to make sense of it. And this is a gift
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that Allah has given to humanity that the prophet will make those clarifications. Notice I didn't cut him off, but he repeats the same point like five, six times. So if I cut him off because I got his point the first two times. You want
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to circle? We'll circle. No, no, I'm just saying. But you I just want you to see. I want everyone to see. I don't cut him off.
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But he repeats the same point six, seven times. I got it the first two times.
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We're wasting time. So, let's come back here. You said Bible scholars, my friend. If the Bible scholars are right, the Quran is a lie. That's the Let me explain to you why.
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Please show me the verse and then let's go. No, no, it's not a verse.
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Exactly. It's not a verse, is it? [laughter] That's the point. Islamic guy saw he's cutting me off, right?
Speaker A
You're right. You're right. Go ahead. I'm not upset. I don't mind you cutting me, but you're the one who's whining, complaining about it. Okay, let's come back here. If we establish, which we are, the Quran says the scriptures have
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been preserved. Nothing is lost. Bible scholars say it is, that means the Quran is a lie. Muhammad would didn't know what he's talking about. So, you don't want to appeal to Bible scholars. That's why I didn't appeal to Bible scholars. I
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appeal to your prophet. Now, let's take your example of surah 7157. You kept saying, "Yeah, because there are prophecies there." Can you name one of those prophecy in the Gospel of John?
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Do you want to go to 7157 or not? That's the one that says that the Torah and because that's what you kept appealing to that they'll find the um the unlettered prophet written in the torn gospel with them. Where do you find a
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prophecy of Muhammad in the gospel? What gospel? Perfect. Yeah. Just give to me. So I'm glad you even worded the way you worded it. It said in the gospel they have with them. Yeah.
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That's a very important wording. I just want for the sake of the audience. I want them to understand that if for example I say to you the book of Mcabes, right, is in the Bible. I can stop right there.
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But if I say the book of Mcabes is in the Bible you have with you then that extra word could be suggesting that oh because he's Catholic he has that extra book whereas others don't. So it's his version. So even the wording itself I'm
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very glad you brought that up and you translate the way you translate it in your own wording which is excellent.
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It's not just the Torah and the Gospel. It's the Torah and the Gospel that they have with them. Why would that why would that extra word be there? So I think you kind of hinted at it. I hope it's clear
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from that perspective. Good. Now the question is Allah is making a prediction and saying that even though this is the version that they have with them, you can still find the prophet Muhammad in Yeah. Would you want to answer the
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question though because you didn't answer where all over because I want you to hear what you said earlier. I want everyone to hear it. You appealed to 7157 to say the way 381 is fulfilled.
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There's still a prophecy in their scriptures, Muhammad. That's how you interpret 3181 by going to 7157.
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So I jumped with you. Thank you. Can you now show me what gospel contains a prophecy of Muhammad?
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Excellent. Please give me one. So there are two topics at hand here. Right. One is let's have a debate. Is the prophet Muhammad sallallam in the Bible? That's a whole debate and it's a great topic and there's a bunch of them
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that we can talk about. There's the concept of and I you know what I'm very tempted to mention all the different verses but then we're going to go down a whole debate.
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I just want my please just let me finish my point. Yeah. Go ahead. You're totally right that this is making a claim that the prophet Muhammad wasallam is in the Bible and you have the right in what?
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In in the scriptures that they had with them. You said the Bible, right? Well, it says sleep. Excuse me. So, let let me let me let me be more accurate so I don't mess around. It's in the Torah
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and the Injil that is what that is with them. Okay. So, now that we're on the same page here, okay, so right now give me a prophecy.
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Exactly. That is a great question and that is a great debate topic. We're trying to establish dodgeball. [laughter] dodgeball.
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Yes, you're you're absolutely right. I am Let me explain to you why. Because today we're talking we're waiting for the unequivocal verse that demonstrates that today's Bible is corrupt. This verse doesn't help you.
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Besides the 20 verses I gave you, Fred, you understand why I went to 7157.
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So So let I just want make to make sure that the the the um the audience understands what I'm doing right now. I am fully avoiding going down the rabbit hole of saying, "Let me show you this verse and this verse and this verse that
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is still preserved, that is still original, that does talk about the prophet Muhammad in the Bible." You're right. I am dodging that because we're going to go down a huge rabbit hole. But I what I do want to confirm
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is that thus far you haven't given us You can keep preaching me to the confirms that today's Bible is authentic and therefore the Islamic [snorts] dilemma which is on the table has not been established. Keep on doing me to your crowd over here. Okay. Now,
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let's come back here. Sure. Do you know I went to Psalm 157? Yeah. Yeah. Following your rabbit trail.
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Yes. Yes. Why is it when you bring a verse and I try to use it to nail you with it, you then run from it?
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No, no, no. Let me explain what I'm doing. I did go into the Arabic to demonstrate that based on the Arabic language and based on the conscious edits and based on so therefore contextually and specifically this is not affirming the entirety of the Bible.
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It's affirming what? That the prophet Muhammad wasallam is in your book. Now you're like, "Good. Let's change the topic to the prophet Muhammad." No, that's not it. I'm not interested in that.
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Now, you notice I let him repeat the same point eight times and we go nowhere because he doesn't even know what I'm trying to establish.
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You keep making claims. You have failed to establish any of your claims. The only reason I went to 7157.
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Yep. Is because I want to know and I'm not going into Muhammad in the Bible. I'm going to keep it with Islamic dilemma, but you're too afraid to even give me one example.
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Terrified. Exactly. So, can you give me one? Yes. What is it? this one and I'm not even going to go into Mhammed in the Bible.
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Okay. Can we stick to the Islamic dilemma? Can you give me one example so I can make my case for the Islamic dilemma?
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You don't want to do it? No. The Islamic dilemma is not is not proving that it's actually true.
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You're talking to the OG. Don't tell the old G how to establish the Islamic dilemma. Right. I'm going by your words.
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I know how to establish the Islamic dilemma. Can you just give me one prophecy?
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Okay, let me explain. I'll explain to you. Watch. The sentence The sentence would have been perfectly good by saying You could have said it that way. The one who you find in the Torah and in the gospel. But Allah says
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this is contrasting what is this conting [clears throat] this is contrasting what is when you make this it's actually in the Bible guys like I'm now I'm this is my own sort of I'm not the Bible right notice he said it's the Bible. Good
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point. Let me let me please finish that when this is saying that you can actually find it in their scripture today. When you say the words you can actually find it, what does that imply?
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That unfortunately other things are missing, but you can still find the prophet Muhammad. This verse does not prove the Islamic dilemma. It does not say that the Bible.
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Can you stop repeating that mantra? Authentic. Mhm. Okay. I need to I I want to make sure I know you're trying to convince them because you're scared they're losing faith. May Jesus save them and bring them to the truth. But let's come back
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to you. Listen to me. I'm still waiting for an example to make my Islamic dilemma from the verse you ran to. Yeah, you ran to it. I didn't run to it.
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Right. The Islamic the Islamic dilemma has to prove this claim that the Can you stop telling me how to Can you give me a verse? Just say just so because it because we're going in a circle.
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Yeah. Can you give one verse or No. Yeah, we can talk about Daniel 7 talks about in detail about I said gospel. You want to go to Daniel 7? That's fine.
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Yeah. Daniel 7. Daniel 7. So, okay, fine. If you want to go down this road guys uh so uh Luke 9:26 talks about the son of man that is different and distinct from let me please finish distinct from Jesus and therefore he
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will come in the doxa the glory of the father so obviously if it's the glory hold on the glory of a person hold on if it's the glory of a single person uh uh then that would be very little but
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if it's the glory of the father then it's going to be the most amount of doxa the word doxa is related to the word ham and if it's the most of it that means it's ahmed the most praisedworthy person
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this This is all explained. This is not related to Hold on. This is all explained very beautifully in Dean responds upcoming book. Dean, you wanted a plug. I got you your plug, homie. So Dean responds. He's going to explain all this in detail.
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Oh, right there, Dean. And I destroyed your argument on my YouTube channel. I buried your book, homie. By the grace of Jesus Christ.
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So yes, I'm sure you you said you wanted to sing, right? You want to sing? You know the song. Many people are too young to remember this song, but you're old enough to remember. It's Istanbul Constantinople. It's Istanbul not
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Constantinople music. Do you remember that song? Istanbul. Istanbul not Constantinople. You remember that song?
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Well, I know I don't, but it's okay. I believe you. So, what happened? What happened to Constantinople? It's now Istanbul.
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Okay. Is that I didn't tell you to go and change it. Just look at Luke.
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Daniel 7, four different empires. Which one destroyed the final beast? And which one established monotheism all over the world to the gospel of the love of your God?
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The same Luke. So that's that's guys now watch. He went to Luke right now the the janaza for his argument. You mean the same Luke that says that Jesus died on the cross and that repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached
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in his name to all nations. The same Luke that said that Jesus rose from the dead. When you appeal to Luke, you destroyed Islam. You prove to me Muhammad is an antichrist.
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Louder. That's the Islamic drama. [laughter] Did you say Islamic? Oh no, no, wait. Let me make my point. Why don't you preach?
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Go for it. Go for it. That's what I was waiting for you to do to go to my gospel because I'm going to say, "Wait, wait, wait." So that verse you're saying is Muhammad. But the entire gospel that
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says the Quran is a lie because it says Jesus was killed, was buried, was raising risen on the third day. And that Jesus says repentance and forgiveness will be proclaimed in my name, his name to all the nations, which contradicts the
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Quran. Oh no, it's corrupt. And you're going to convince us that mom is a prophet. Way to go.
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Thank you. Okay, good. Now, you want to go to Maid? No, no, no. I want to respond. I want to respond.
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Okay, but we're not doing Muhammad, right? See how patient I was. I didn't even I didn't I try not to even You notice I let him speak six minutes.
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I only get like 20 30 seconds, right? And I'm not complaining. He is. Sorry.
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Now, I'm not going to Muhammad in the Bible. [laughter] No. No. Be fair. Be fair, buddy. I didn't go M. Do you understand my anger, man?
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No. No. Wait. Wait. No, no, no. Don't run because you're going to preach for 20 minutes.
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Did you understand why I wanted you to mention the Gospel of Luke? Hey friend. Yeah, I don't know what this game is. All right, I'm letting you. I'm literally not talking.
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Okay, can you repeat why I went to Luke? I mean, why I use Luke? What was the point? Not Muhammad in the Bible. What was the point of me using Luke? I want to see if you got the argument.
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Uh, you just made a whole point. I'm going to respond to it. I'm not going to run down a rabbit hole. I'm going to respond.
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Okay. So, just issue. Don't go on a tangent. Daniel 7 because that's going to bury your religion. Daniel 7. But let's focus while I went to Luke to make a part of the Islamic gloom. I want to see if you understood the argument. Go
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ahead. We're doing great. As long as we can take our time, we're doing great.
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Good. Good stuff. No pressure. Fantastic. Um, now we are just officially we're changing the subject.
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Just just to be clear. Just to be clear. Now he wants to know. Now he wants to know. Please, let's get away from the Islamic dilemma and stop trying to confirm. Instead, what I want to do is I
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want to describe do do the Gospels describe Jesus as being uh uh killed on the cross, which yes, you're right. They do. They also describe him praying to be saved. And they also affirm that uh his name is As
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isa that means uh or Yeshua which means God saves. And also when he talked to the devil and uh the devil said just go ahead. No no no hold on hold on go ahead jump off the uh the the the edge here
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and fall he said because you are Psalms 91 you are guaranteed to be protected.
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Jesus affirmed it right and it says what? That they won't be able to harm you that they will thousands will fall to your right side. They won't be able to touch you. So now you have a huge contradiction. How is it that the
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Messiah they won't be able to touch him? They won't he will be saved. That that's actually the last word. It's actually related to yin or Yeshua. Basically Yeshua in Hebrew, not in Arabic.
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That's the last word. And it says in the second last verse, that's verse 16. If you look at verse 15, what does it talk about? It talks about him being honored, not turned into a curse. Honored. So now
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you have this huge contradiction. How is it that he's praying to be saved? He says in John that my prayers are always heard.
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The fact that you admitted, that's all I wanted to do. It's not to convince the Muslim that [clears throat] the Quran establish Islamic DMA. What I was establishing is if you're going to do to the Christian, I'm going to remind
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you of your argument and say Muhammad is in your Bible. Okay, let me show. Okay.
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Okay. And say which Bible? Gospel Luke. Oh, wow. The gospel that says Jesus was killed and raised and ascended and sits at the right hand of God. Does Muhammad believe that? No. Then he's an antichrist. That's all I was
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establishing. YOU WENT ON A 15 PSALM 91. I've addressed all of these, my friend.
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Beautiful. Okay. So, let's stick with the Islamic dilemma. If I follow your advice, Daniel 7 buries the Quran.
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That's not Islamic dilemma. Okay. It is because the Islamic dilemma is the Quran affirms the Bible. You're talking about You're talking about Daniel.
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I told you I didn't want to go on this tangent. Can I finish the point?
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You forced me to. I I'm such a nice guy. Can you Let me finish the point. Can you control yourself?
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I'm going to do go preacher mode again as you call it. Christians are waiting for the Quranic verse that affirms the Bible. They don't want to know about Daniel, right? Okay. They don't want to go.
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Can you control yourself? Daniel 7 will bury the theology of Islam. But I'm not going to let you run. We can set it up and I'll take Dean's response book and I can use it for decoration.
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I'll bury it because it's beautiful. Okay. Yes. Now, you also lied about the word hum and doas because you depend on his argument.
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What's the Arabic word for glory? What is the Arabic word for glory? Maybe is one of them. Say it again.
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Perhaps this. And what does it come from? What root? Sabah. Sabah. So doas or doa corresponds to not ahmed praiseworthy. So that's the first mistake because you blindly follow another guy.
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I'm not I'm not saying that. I don't want to change. I don't want to change.
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Arabic is a very rich Islamic dilemma. Arabic is a very rich language. You can't just limit it to one. But go ahead.
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No, that's all right. I don't want to go off tangents. I'm the one keeping you on Islamic dilemma. You ran and you're saying I'm changing. No, I was trying to establish a point.
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You begged me. You beg me to change subjects. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.
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Okay. Now, I'm going to I'm going to prove you don't get the argument. Repeat what my argument was.
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That you're right and I'm wrong. Can we go on to the to the Islamic now?
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We deal with we dealt with 7157. I want Let me repeat what the point was.
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The moment you tell a Christian or Jew, Muhammad is in your Bible, it's the end of Islam. Oh, you mean my Bible that says he's an antichrist? Good. That's it. You can say that part is corrupt.
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Oh, thank you for further confirming Muhammad is exposed as a fraud because you have to say my Bible's corrupt to salvage his reputation. That was it.
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I made my point there. So I don't I don't Now let's go to surah al 548. The shish kebab.
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The shish kebab is coming my friend. You guys got it all right. 547 and 58. Go ahead.
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All 548bar. Which one? Don't you want to start with 547 first? No, I want to go with you said and I'm going with you.
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Yep. Okay. Moan. Yeah. Try to make your case for me because I know what you're gonna say.
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Okay. Sure. Uh would you like the def the dictionary definition of the word? Would you like me to give you the commentators too? Iban Cir and Tabar and Korto.
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If we want to go down the uh commentator dilemma, that would be a lot of fun. Cuz like I said, let me let me let me say this. The commentator dilemma is he brings certain comments that have opinions about Muaymon and then I bring
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an avalanche of verses that have other comments about this word Muay and then we go back and forth into this commentary dilemma. Tell me what it means.
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But but yeah, if we just go to a dictionary, I'm going to take a look at I'm going to give you the Islamic dictionary, but go ahead.
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He says what that So what does this say? I know you know some Arabic. You're pretty good. So it says the muan gives the sense that the Quran is the controller and the criterion over what came in previous scriptures of reports
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and laws especially where they say it again. Say it again. Especially now repeat that part slowly.
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Especially where they start goodness gracious [clears throat] four times. Especially where they didn't even hear me.
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Five times. I'll do it six times. Start from the beginning. How many? Why? So because I want to catch you in your definition. Read it again. Start at the beginning.
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Okay. Okay. Start at the beginning. I wanted because it actually made my point. I just want to finish the quote once. I just want I want to finish quote once.
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He didn't let me finish it once. Just want to be clear. Go ahead. Go ahead.
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Please just let me read it. Okay. Yeah. Muheman gives the sense that the Quran is the controller and criterion over what came in the previous scriptures of reports and laws, especially where they differ from the Quran.
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Thank you. Read it one more time. Oh god, man. Really? Yes. I thought because you're going to make my point. Read it again.
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I I read one more time because I want to now bring you I'm in such a generous mood slowly.
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The word Muaymon gives the sense that the Quran is the controller and criterion over what came in the previous scriptures of reports and laws especially where they differ from the Quran.
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Exactly. Thank you. Now I you say thank you but you still didn't get how it's going to bury your case. Of course. Because what's the context of 548 without looking it up? I'm not even looking up.
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Just just in case. No, no, no. You're the one who memorized the Quran. That's not my book.
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What's Yeshua. Okay. What's the context of 548? Just tell me. Just make your case. It's okay. It's okay.
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Wait. Wait. You quoted a verse. Yeah. You don't know what the context is. You know the context.
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What are we? And by the way, I'm [clears throat] actually trying to be quiet. He's He's No, I want you to read it.
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I just did. Jalain. I want you to see this. Jalain Porto. I'm going to do them better. I'm going to give them as Muslim scholars. They're the best at lexar. No, because take it easy, man. Read 548. Open it up for me.
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548. Open. Read it for me. Read it. Yeah. Okay. Here's even better. Actually, you know what? Actually, you know what? Let's Let's Because you said you want context, right? Are you going to let me talk?
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43 48. Don't get animated. Control yourself. 4348. That's context. If you say I'm waiting.
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Can we read it in English? Cuz people are No, he's trying to impress people. But I'm okay. I I want him to because I want him to get all cuz he's got to dole out me to his audience cuz he's not doing
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too good. So, keep going. Read it. 43 to 48. If you ask someone to give context, you do realize it's going to take a minute, right?
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Hold on. Did [laughter] you remember? No wait. You don't want me to talk? Talk.
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Okay. This guy's appealing. It's disgusting that he has to act this way, but it's okay. I'm going to stick to his level.
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Did you notice that when I went to 5 46 45 I said the context was 43 and we went through it. That was like 20 minutes ago.
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We read the context, right? Why is he playing these games? Because now we're coming to the conclusion and I'm going to tell him what the conclusion is. If he reads it, he's gonna bury his case. I'm ready for these
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arguments. But I still didn't establish Islamic dilemma. No, no, no, no. Can you read it now for us? 48. Let's see what the context says. Read it for us.
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So when you say read it, then you say the context. I'm going to go to 47.
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You can read 43. Good. So this is going to take a second because now you want context.
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Take 20 seconds. Thank you. Allah says I'm going to read in English. No problem.
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Okay. Okay. Allah says, "And let the people of the gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient." Let me explain. Thank you
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very much. People of Does it say let the people of the gospel judge by the gospel? It does not say that. It specifically says, "Let the people of the gospel judge by revelation specifically." It changes the word. Why
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would it do that? Because we know that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are reports, historical reports. Jesus wasn't sitting around receiving revelation that, oh, this is Mark's perspective of what happened today.
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Here's Luke's perspective of what happened today. Why would you need revelation of your own biography from the perspective of four different people that you hang around? That's clearly not what's happening. It's these are historical documents. So God is saying,
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hold on, let me just continue here. So God is saying, you are people of the gospel, right? Then restrict yourself to revelation. This is an impossible challenge. The Quran gives lots of impossible challenges. The Quran says produce a book like it. And then the
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solution is you can't. Since you cannot produce a book like it, therefore, you know it's the Quran. That's one example.
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Here's another example of an impossible challenge. Let's go through it. You want to go through the verse and stop preaching now? I'm going I'm going I'm going through that.
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Stop twisting the text with your tongue. Beautiful. Thank you. You said you give me some time because I want to Yeah. and giving the impossible challenge of saying rest if your people have the gospel restrict yourself to revelation and since they
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cannot therefore god says what he says we have revealed to you a book in truth confirming what preceded since you don't have fully everything that's there no problem we're going to give you a book that has a dual function it confirms
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from the past but it also corrects the distortions and then what is the conclusion this is a beautiful part that Allah after saying this says what and so therefore judge between them Muhammad wasallam using what? The Quran.
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So this is very clearly establishing an impossible challenge and giving the solution. Keep preaching. No, I have to cut him off. You didn't finish the verse.
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We can keep going if you want. Go ahead. Read as much. You preached for 10 minutes, brother.
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I'm going to shish kebab. I'm going to shish kebab the argument. Keep talking. Read the entire verse and English slow because the context is not going to bury your entire case. What you just said.
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Yeah. So everything you said that verse just buried. Now read the verse. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you we prescribed a law.
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PAUSE THAT. EMPHASIZE THAT. YES. OKAY. [laughter] NO. All right. Emphasize that part. That Yes. Depart.
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To each of you what? Yes. Exactly what you confirmed earlier. No. No. Read. Read. To each of you what?
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Uh uh what's it called? There you go. Okay. Translate. Law and method. You just Yep.
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fought against your own god. You just said, let me explain. You just said to everyone, they can't judge by the gospel. It's impossible. Your God said you're a liar because we ascribe to them their own law and path. How could they
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follow a law that you said is not possible? That's why they need the Quran. Read that part again. Music to my ears.
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I have no idea what. Just can you look I'm I'm being sincere now. Can you just make your point a little clear?
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Tell me that because you went preaching for 20 minutes. I just want you to make your point a little clearer. That's all. Let me let me get the verse up for you and then we're going to see if the commentators
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the best Lexington agree with him. 548 if you had read in context destroyed your case. But you see this why you preach into the choir here. And if you want to convince people to come Muslims, you'll be one of the best apologists for
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Christianity. You're going to drive them to Christ. I'm just saying. And unto thee have we revealed scripture with the truth confirming whatever scripture was before it. Watch over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed and follow not their desires
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away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each we have appointed a divine law. For each does that include the Christians.
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Uh that uh this means that yes when it comes to where's their law? Can can I can I can I answer?
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No, you can't preach because I let you preach. You got to interact dialogue. Where's their law?
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I would like to answer you. Go ahead. uh maybe 20 to 30 minutes ago, you were very charitable in saying that I understand that there's continuity in the belief system and sometimes laws can change in in small amounts. And I
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appreciated that so much. I said, "Thank you for allowing me to explain that there's continuity while uh based on different time periods and eras there may be differences in the Sharia." That's it. That's No, that's not what I asked you. So, you
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don't answer questions. Oh, come on, man. Where is the law that Allah gave to the Christians? Because you just said you're recorded. Thank God it's gonna be unedited.
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It's in the past. No, no, no, wait, wait. Let me make Let me repeat it.
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You said it for the people here and the camera. Allah is asking them to do something impossible to show them they need the Quran because they don't have the law in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I say, I
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hear you. No, no, I didn't say that at all. Didn't you just say No, I said look, look at the wording.
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Just look at the wording. It's right there. No, no, not here. Earlier when you stopped.
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Yeah. Yeah. No, it doesn't say Remember you said that, right? It doesn't say law.
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It says what? What is Sharia? Oh, come on, man. Give me a second because you just you just misqued. I'm just going to clarify.
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That's not the part we're not that's not that's not that's not so 48 friend. It says Sharia that we gave to each one of Sharia. Does that include the Christians that uh they it's very likely that every single prophet he would
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it says here. You don't want to hear me. No, because you're going on tangents.
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Each we have appointed divine. Who's each? Each nation. Each uh what? It doesn't say the word nation there. 48 for each what's in context and he would have made you one nation. Yeah. So it's not one nations.
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No no earlier where it says for each we have appointed a law and a each of you have prescribed a law and method. Yes.
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Who's the each in the context? I'm saying based on the very next few words it's nations. Nations which nation in the context?
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Uh talking about Jews, Christians or different nations that have What is the law given to the Christians by your God?
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I would love to go back in time. There we go again. Let me let me let me answer I'm answering you. I would love to go back in time to the time of you get a time machine next time for a
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debate. Is that what you're gonna say? What I'm what I'm saying is that um if we went back in time to see which technical differences like for example I'll give an example.
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You don't need an example. Just I'll make it very clear. I'll make it very clear. I'll make it very clear. At the beginning of Islam when the prophet Muhammad wasallam uh was preaching the message, alcohol wasn't prohibited and then in stages it
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became prohibited. So there can be an argument made that at the time of Jesus it wasn't prohibited.
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Got it? So that could be an an element or an example of a the Sharia or the law of God having a difference. I'm very glad that you said it very clearly and it was very it was very generous of him
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to acknowledge that listen even if prophets come in succession and they have the same overall message that laws might differ right in in those details.
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So I'm simply acknowledging to him that yes if we went back in time we could see exactly the laws of Moses, the laws of Abraham, what specific details were there. I have no problem acknowledging that. But now he's saying that no, I
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need a detailed show or whatever. Like you hear me say that and I'm glad this is recorded.
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I said the the nation of the Jews Jesus this is not edited. That's not what I said.
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You asked me which nation. Yeah. I said various nations including Jews and Christians. Okay.
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But I don't know. Maybe because I'm just stupid. I need to learn how to speak better.
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Everything you said had nothing to do with my question. I unlike you, it's now it's going to go unedited, right? Yep.
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Glory to Jesus Christ. Amen. Cuz people are going to hear I heard everything he said. He can't address anything I said. I went with what you said earlier. You said 5:47 the wording is clear. Judge by what's in it. That
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means not the gospel, but there is some truth in it. But you can't then judge by the law because Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, they're not law. And the Quran is telling you, see, that's impossible. You need the Quran. Say, I heard you.
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That's what you said. But let me make the point. Okay. I'm I'm not asserting everything you just said right now. That's okay.
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5:48 says, "Everything you said is a lie." Because in 48 it says, "We gave every one of them a law to follow." That's not the same. Then you went on another tangent that one Sharia can abregate another. That wasn't even my argument. I
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don't even care about that. That's the point. No, it wasn't the point. Can I tell you what the point is, please?
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What was the law that Allah gave to Christians that they're to judge by? What was the law that Allah gave to the Jews in the context of 54348? I didn't even leave the context in 54348. Sorry.
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What was the context? The Jews, we gave them their law. Let him judge by it.
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Christians, we gave them the law. Let him you Muhammad, we gave you a law. You are to judge by it. So I'm going to ask you, if I ask you, what is the law of Islam? You're going to say Quran and
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Sunnah. What is the law according to this verse that was given to the Christians at the time of Muhammad that they're supposed to follow? Because it's talking about his time, not time machine, you know, back to the future. What was
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the law they had? Okay, I'm going to answer you please because you're misrepresenting something. Okay.
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You do realize that the prophet Muhammad was sent to all of mankind. That includes Christians, right?
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Yeah. Is it? Okay, there you go. So, what is the law that was given to the Christians?
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Uh, we'd have to go back in time and find out exactly what details he was given.
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Even though in 47 it says, right, it's a gospel answer you don't know. Okay. Now, now in the context, the definition you gave of Muhammad, you made my case. Muhammad in the context is saying to Muhammad your scripture will tell you which parts
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of the previous Sharia have been abrogated you don't follow which parts I'm binding that's all that muan means in the context muham means for you who believe it you're going to use the Quran to determine whether do I still keep
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Sabbath no the Quran tells you you're free should I get circumcised on the eth day well there's nothing in your Quran or in the Sharia that says that on 8th Hey, if you want to go to hadith, we're
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not going to go. But my point is that's what it means. Meaning you Muslims, you follow the Sharia of Muhammad and if his Sharia says you don't need to keep Sabbath, you are free. But you Jews, that's your Sharia. You keep it. That's
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the context of Muhammad. It didn't say anything you claimed. And I got your scholars to admit it. So why did you twist and add to these words?
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Okay. Who here just added a whole lot of words instead of sticking to the words?
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I stuck to the words and I stuck to the dictionary definition of these words.
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You brought a whole world of information that is not present. So what I'm what I'm suggesting to everybody is to read these verses yourselves. And I don't I I don't want to reiterate everything I said. You can just rewatch
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it and understand verse 47 saying that look if you're people of the gospel stick to revelation only not biographies.
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And what's what's beautiful is that why does it say that? Not the biographies. Let me let me let me even I'll even appeal to your Bible.
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Okay. So does it say not from my perspective but from your perspective. How nice is it that Jesus says my teachings are not my own. Sure. So he's describing that he's receiving some kind of revelation. Right.
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Where did you quote from? So no I'm just saying where did you get that from?
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From your texts. So the gospel of John. So you just let me finish. No because we're not here to preach friend. You've been preaching. I got Can can I actually finish the point? Can I finish the point please?
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He I've been letting him finish. You went on you you went on a 20-minute rant right now and I just kept on going like this.
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You guys been dying, right? So, let me finish. You did. No, hold on. Hold on. Wait, wait, wait.
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Let's let him finish as quick. Oh, thank you. I'm going to My point is you're confirming.
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No, I'm not. I just said I will. You know how he confirmed it. When he goes to my Gospel of John to show me that the teaching that God gave Jesus is there for me to follow. He just buried
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his aring, but he doesn't listen. Can I You I didn't get to finish it.
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Yeah. Obviously, we as Muslims believe that Jesus received revelation. Mhm. It just so happens that your book, which I'm not affirming or denying. I'm simply saying that in your belief system, he also received revelation. What he didn't receive was his own biography from four
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different perspectives. That's what I'm saying. So therefore, when God is saying, "No, if you're really people of the gospel, if you really care about what, you know, Jesus taught, etc. Then you should judge by revelation." Matthew, Mark, Luke, and
Speaker A
John never claim to be revelation. In fact, Luke makes it extremely clear by saying, "I'm running around trying to find reports." In Luke 1:es 1-4, he's talking about trying to find reports.
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You don't need to go get reports from different people if you're receiving revelation. So nowhere does this confirm revelation. So therefore, if you just go from there to the next verse, God is saying, now that you understand the
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problem, here's the solution. The Quran is, as I said, by the dictionary definition, a confirming what is true, confirming what is consistent with the past, correcting whatever distortions may have been there, clarifying. Yeah. Mo, you want to read
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again? No, no, read the definition because you just added to your own definition of that lexican. Read it again slowly.
Speaker A
And I'm going to read it slowly. No, we're going to do it 10 times because it takes 10 times to get point. Read your definition again, guys. Listen and watch. See how not only how he butchered the Quran
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and butchered the Bible. He's butchering the read it again slowly so we can hear in Arabic or English.
Speaker A
No, [laughter] the the word the word Muhemon gives the sense that the Quran is the controller and criterion over what came in previous scriptures and of reports and laws, especially where they differ from the Quran.
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Did you see it anywhere? says that it shows where it's been corrupted in his definition. Did you see that? Did you guys hear it? He's not only butchering his own Quran, and I have to correct them. A non-Muslim, he's butchering the
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Bible. I have to correct him. Even the source he quotes confirms and he butchers it. Show me where it said that it shows there's corruption in the text because it just says, the word meaning these reports that have been brought
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down. Where does it say corrupted? This is what I'm trying to tell you. What I'm trying to tell you is when it says that these are from the reports of what has come, that does not mean that they are fully authentic. It doesn't
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mean that they're fully corrupted. It's simply describing them as, let me say, no, I want to report come for hundreds of years. And we know Christian history is very clear about lots of people making lots of things up about Jesus and
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the church having to figure out what's right, what's wrong, etc. Right? Right? So there's a whole canonization process, lots of textual variance, lots of issues. And thank God we have a prophet to come and to confirm what is correct
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and to filter out what is incorrect. This is not like some this is not some crazy theory that requires so much uh you know what's it called? Mental gymnastics. We know this.
Speaker A
You done preaching? Because everything you said Are you not preaching? No, I know. It's okay. I'm We're both preaching.
Speaker A
Yeah, I believe it. But everything you said we both from the heart. Everything you said Yes, sir. was not in any of the verses you said.
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No, I'm I'm using the wordbar reports. It doesn't matter. Report doesn't mean that's that's no guys. This is unedited.
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If you fear Allah, you're going to see he cuts me off and speaks more than and I don't mind. But don't whine. Just okay.
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Don't don't whine. That's all I'm asking. You need all the time to try to now salvage the destruction you did against your case. Glory to Jesus. I pray you get saved before it's too late.
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May the Lord save you. Now, coming back to the issue. Coming back to the issue.
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Everything you said, you won't find it in any of the verses we read. Now, I'm going to read the context, and I'm not going to add commentary. Guys, I want you to hear the context of 543:48. Okay? They have the
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Torah wherein Allah had delivered judgment. Yet, even after they turn away, such folk are not believers.
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[snorts] Lo, we did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and light, by which the prophets who surrendered, judged the Jews and the rabbis and the priests, judged by such of Allah's scripture as they're bidden to observe, there unto
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were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear me and barter not my revelations for little gain. Who so judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed, such are disbelievers. So it's all about I'm sorry, can you tell me which ayat?
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5 maida 4348. We're reading the context. You're at 48. You want to go You want to You want We We We We did this earlier.
Speaker A
No, but it's okay because I want people to see how much you added to the text.
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Should Shouldn't we move on to New Can I finish the point? Of course you can.
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Okay. So, I want you to understand it's about Sharia. They have a Sharia. You judge by it. The Jews. No, we've already fine about because we want to talk about the Christians what their Sharia is. We [clears throat] prescribe for them there
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in the life for the life, the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose and the ear for the ear, the tooth for the tooth, wounds for retaliation. But whoever foregoes it, it shall be expeation for him. Whoso judgeth not by
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that which Allah revealed such are wrongers. Now that's you Jews. Don't go to Muhammad. You have a Sharia. That's the context. I want everyone to hear the context.
Speaker A
Repeat that. Repeat the verse, please. To tell me exactly which verse. Surah Maida 543 to 48.
Speaker A
No. And just which verse which which verse is that? We read 43 to 45. That was 45.
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That's 45. Thank you very much. So you just said that it says that you have to judge by what? Which verse?
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Do I need to reread it again? No. No. Just you you made this big assertion. All it's saying, see, he cuts me off. You can't control them, so I didn't even finish it.
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Okay. How come they come to thee for judgment? 43. Why do they come to you for judgment when they have the Torah? Wherein Allah hath delivered judgment. Yet even after they did turn away, lo, we did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and
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light, by which the prophets who surrendered [clears throat] judged the Jews, so they judged by that Torah, the rabbis, the priests. By such of all the scriptures they were bidden to observe, there unto were they witnesses. So fear
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not mankind, but fear me, barter not my revelations for little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah revealed. You know what the context is, right? Do I have to show you that about the Torah that has guidance light judge
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by that? We established that. Go on. Okay. We prescribed for them therein the life for the life, the eye for the eye, the nose for the nose, the ear for the ear, the tooth for the tooth, wounds retaliation. See the sharia judge. But
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who so forgoeth it in the way of charity, it shall be expeation for him.
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Who so judgeth not by that which Allah revealed, such are wrongdoers. So Jews, that's what Allah revealed. Now the Christians, this is where I'm trying to get at. That's why I say each one has a Sharia. And we call Jesus son of Mary to
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follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was revealed before him in the Torah. We bestowed on him the gospel wherein is guidance light, confirming that which is before it in the Torah, a guidance admonition unto those who ward off evil. Now 47,
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let the people of the gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Who so judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed, such are evils. Now we come to 48. The context. I'm giving you context. I didn't add. Yeah, keep you
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looking at me. Watch here. 20 minutes, 10 minutes. Okay. And unto thee we have revealed the scripture with truth, confirming whatever scripture before it.
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Watch over it. So judge between them by that which all revealed. Follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each, the context tells you who they each are. You Muslims, you Christians, you Jews, each
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one of you, we've appointed a law, a traced out way. Had Allah willed, he could have made you one community. But that he may try you by that which he hath given you. So by one other good good works unto Allah you will return
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and he will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. Do we understand the context now?
Speaker A
Uh I didn't add anything. Do you understand the context? Let let him finish and then I can talk.
Speaker A
Okay. Because I want you to know if the context right. What's the context? Finish. All right.
Speaker A
He's asking you a question. You got to answer. Yeah. What's the context? Can I talk without being interrupted?
Speaker A
Oh, I don't know if you're going to go on tangents. No, I'm going to go into context. Verse 41 is even earlier than you start at 43.
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What does it say? That they distort their text. You want to go into context. You start at 43 just just two verses earlier says they [clears throat] distort their text. But alhamdulillah even a broken clock is right twice a day. And when it came to
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this particular verse in chapter chapter 5 verse 43 even though God just said in verse 41 that their scriptures are not authentic. God is saying that in their book they did get the right ruling. They were supposed to do what? They were
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supposed to execute that man for his crime. But since they're so insincere they tried to dodge it by going to the prophet. And so that means even when they had the correct ruling, despite they have the unfortunately a book that
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doesn't have everything correct, but thank God they had the right ruling this time, they still tried to dodge it. And so they go to the prophet Muhammad and they and now God is pointing out their incredible hypocrisy. And that's why
Speaker A
when you quote chapter uh 5:44, if we're going to keep going in the context, when you say, "And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, then is those who are the disbelievers," it is saying what that this is how insincere you
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people are. Whether it be rejecting the prophet Muhammad or whether it be that you come across a correct ruling here in your book, you still try to dodge. You have no interest in the truth whatsoever.
Speaker A
Good. By the way, you again butchered 541. Show me where it says they changed the scripture.
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What does the word What does the word mo mean? Didn't ask you. You said scripture, right?
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I'll do what he did. You don't know. You don't know. No. I'm going to be I'm going to be more Show me where it says they change.
Speaker A
You're older than me, so I'll be more respectful. But show me where it says they change the scripture. Did you guys hear it? He said 541 says they changed the scripture. Read it. Show me where it says scripture.
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Do you know what the word mo there means? Open up 54. Moel. There is the word there. And there it means placements.
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When I speak, let me take when I when I one second. When I speak words, they go in every direction and they don't land anywhere. Right? But written words have placements.
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Okay? So just read the text itself. And it's saying that they mess and they do and they distort the placement of their kum of their words.
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So this is very heard that right but he said scripture earlier now burial number one he [laughter] said scripture right okay so my point is that it is confirming this now I am fully agreeing with you if you want to go to
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the uh commentary dilemma you can say no forget the commentary just one second the verse you can say that the commentary some of them say that this is twisting the meanings and others will say hold on and others will say it's
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twisting their actual scriptures in terms of written and alhamdulillah in 1400 years of commentary you'll find plenty of commentary [snorts] I don't you're not Heartburn argument.
Speaker A
No, because you just destroyed your argument because Okay, let me explain to you. No, no, no commentary because let me make my point. See, you don't you go on tangents, man. It's all right. I won't a tangent. I'm answering your question.
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Okay, let me answer. Lord have mercy on me. I know. I prayed for patience. Okay.
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Did you hear it? If the Quran clearly taught the text was corrupted, you wouldn't have a difference of opinion among Muslims and all the Arabic texts.
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You see how he doesn't listen to himself? You just said to the Muslims here, yes, there are commentators who know the Quran, Arabic, alhamdulillah, and when they read that, they don't see, oh, they change the words from the
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meaning the text, they change it with their tongues. 378. But you just gave the impression to the Muslims who may not read it. It says they changed the scripture. Why did you misinterpret it?
Speaker A
Uh, so I am giving room for the fact that in 1400 years of commentary, you can find both positions. Now, I'm I'm I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna assume you're I know we're getting a little warmed up, but we're gonna talk about
Speaker A
Okay. No, brother. I'm not excited. I'm excited. You are you are charitable enough to say that I love you.
Speaker A
Thank you very much. You are you are you are charitable enough to say that the majority opinion in Islam is that the Bible has been corrupted. Correct.
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Sure. Yes. Okay. So, you obviously know that I can find an avalanche of commentaries that will agree with this point. I'm very glad that you said that. So, if you say that, well, it could be interpreted this way. I'm like, yeah, I know. And it
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can also be interpreted with this avalanche that says otherwise. So that's the context. So verse 41 says there's [snorts] corruption.
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It just so happens in verse 40 43 it's saying that look even a broken clock is right twice a day. That's why it says they don't just have the Torah, they have Torah.
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They actually have God's correct verdict in this particular case. Not not the verdicts of God. Not all of his verdicts, but in this particular case they were supposed to do an execution because the guy was did did a certain
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crime. They didn't want to kill the guy. So they said, "Let's go to You're going to had for that interpretation right?
Speaker A
We talked about it earlier. We talked about earlier. Yeah, that's good. So my point is just to say that based on that fact, this is a question again, not a not you can't not make an assertion. It's a question
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saying how do exactly do you reconcile these two ideas that apparently you have all of God's verdicts but you're also going to the prophet that's a question and therefore later on when in verse 44 going to the context when it says that
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if you're such a a dishonest person that you don't judge by what Allah has revealed whether it be of what you're convinced of in the Torah or whether it be by the prophet you're always trying to play games with scripture then this
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is someone who rejects the truth and is a disbeliever. Okay. Now, brother, I [clears throat] I want you to go back, listen to yourself. Yes.
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Because you admitted you did twist the text indirectly. You admitted it. You didn't. Secondly, forgiveness.
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You again read into these verses what's not there. That's why I took five, six minutes to read it.
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I didn't even add commentary. All you've been doing is adding commentary. But I want you to go back. Listen. You just admitted. And I thank the Lord Jesus for that.
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Yes. The verse didn't say scripture. It says context and yes it can be interpreted either way. the word uh uh or the word uh female wilder you said they took the words out of context can mean either the text or but
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you read it I'll clarify I'll clarify no problem I'll clarify problem I'm saying that based on the word placement I'm definitely convinced that this is talking about misplacing words because that's in terms of text but I'm I'm totally agree with you
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your opinion is your opinion we're not asking we're saying the text I'm saying that scholarly commentary I'm coming you're you're you're deep in this stuff you know if you want to go deep into the Bible What's going to happen?
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You're going to have so many commentaries over thousands of years of different perspectives, right? And you're going to say, "Look, this is what's stronger based on the word." This that's okay, my brother. I didn't go to commentaries.
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I know, but see, you're still not getting the point. This is why I'm getting frustrated.
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He's he's talking I didn't go to commentaries. You went to the commentaries and I emphasize I wanted to hear. You admitted in the commentaries there's a group that says it doesn't mean text. I didn't go near commentaries. You keep accusing me of
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going to the commentaries. Swiss issue. I didn't. That you I'm meeting you where you're at. Yeah.
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So, thank you for admitting the verse didn't say what you said. You've been butchering the verses all day, all morning.
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And you say, so let's come back to the context. I I I Okay. Well, go ahead. Uh, if anybody got the point, I'm I'm happy for you.
Speaker A
The point is that this passage is not talking about textual corruption. Yes. The passage on about the Jews will manhandle the commands and try to misinterpret it to get away from carrying out the judgment. That's why the Quran I think it's rough. That's why
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the Quran says, "No, no, no. Go to your Torah. You're going to follow the Torah." My point was, if I read the context, it didn't establish anything you said. What it's establishing is you Jews, you don't believe Muhammad, right?
Speaker A
Follow your Sharia. You Christians, you don't believe Muhammad Right. follow your Sharia. You, Do you want me to reread again? You're nodding your head.
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Do you want me to read it again? Because I think I don't I'm not cutting you off.
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Okay. You, Muhammad, you judge them by the book we've given you. And this will be Muhammadan. In what sense? Even in your lexical definition, the Quran is going to tell you Muslims which part of the previous legislation is binding and
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which you're freed from. I I find this very bizarre because you admitted you acknowledged that the prophet Muhammad is the messenger for he's the messenger for all of mankind.
Speaker A
No, no, I'm saying I'm not saying theologically I'm not saying theologically believe. I'm saying you acknowledge that the Quran teaches that the prophet Muhammad is a prophet for mankind.
Speaker A
No, I'm just going by the passage. What? Oh, hold on. Hold on. So So your whole argument depends on the idea that the prophet is not for mankind.
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No, my whole argument depends on you thinking he is and using him against you.
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That I I just you were doing a much better job in Let me repeat it again.
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Go ahead. If I was sitting with Bartman, I would say, "Hey, do you know what Muhammad said?" He goes, "I don't care.
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Sure. Last time I checked, you're a Muslim, so I'm gonna quote your prophet against you." Do whatever you want, man.
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But that's what it is. So anyway, you think when the Mormons come, hey Mormons, I want you to see you got to follow what Muhammad says.
Speaker A
No, I don't quote Muhammad for Mormons. I'm going to quote Joseph Smith since you're a Muslim.
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You quote Do you quote Joseph Smith because you believe in everything he says? No, because Oh, there you go. That's so So there you go. Thank you for that. I actually appreciate that a lot. You do quote them, but not because you believe in
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everything he says. That right there was just a concession that everything you've said prior kind of falls apart.
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Okay, pretty good, huh? Do you have any more verses? Yeah. But I'm I'm wondering if he even got my point.
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Okay. If you're a Buddhist, you you think you you know, you cut me off four times already.
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Yeah. Did you catch it right? The guy who's whining about letting me talk, whine is haram.
Speaker A
Okay, [laughter] let him say, you get what I'm saying? You cut me off and I just want no people cuz when I start cutting off, I don't want them to say, "Look, he's unfair. Your guy has been cutting me off and I'm loving it cuz
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everything he says I use against him to hang him for the glory of Jesus." Oh, I need Let's come back here. I apologize. Go for it.
Speaker A
No, no, no. I'm not upset. I want people to catch it. It has happened.
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That's what I'm saying. Go for it. Okay. If you're a Muslim, I'm going to quote Muhammad to you if you're Muslim because you believe in him.
Speaker A
If he's a Buddhist, would it make sense, hey, you know what the Quran says? What are you going to tell me?
Speaker A
I'm not I don't care. Yeah, I'm a Muslim. So, in what world does it follow that if I quote to a Muslim his own prophet to confirm my point, that means I'm conceding he's a messenger for all the
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world? Okay. Uh, what world? No, no. I I agree. That's my point. So, I don't really know what you're So, I'm using your prophet to show you.
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Stop twisting his words. Yeah. You respect him. You love him, right? You've done for the last two hours you've been twisting his words, adding to his words, butchering his words.
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But I've gone with the context. Now, you went outside the Quran, right? You went to the hadith, right?
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Okay. But I don't want to go to the hadith because I want to stay with the Quran because once you went out and you said what the context is we don't want to go to Abu Dhith where he looks at the captor goes I
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believe in you and the one who sent you not part of you some of you most of you so we're going to stay with the Quran okay we stay with the Quran so do you now acknowledge that the
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context of the Quran is saying to the Christians follow your Sharia uh 548 no no we already do you want me to read it I don't want to do it no but you you agree I I mean, it's right there. I'm very I'm
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very happy not to recircle and go back. I I think I made my case very well. 47 is describing that you do you have biographies. You don't have uh uh uh pristine revelation if you're Why does it say biographies and you
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don't have Where did you So, you added it again. Says people in the gospel judge by revelation strictly revelation.
Speaker A
What does it say? Those biographies are not revelation because that would mean that Jesus is receiving his own. Can you imagine he's sitting there and God is revealing to him uh today you went fishing. It's like from the perspective of Matthew. Yeah, I
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know I went fishing. I don't need revelation to tell me my biography. It doesn't even make sense.
Speaker A
The text says that I'm saying the text is saying from the text. Who told you Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are not inspired to write down what they wrote? You've assumed what you've yet to prove, and I let you get away
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with it. So for 2,000 years, they never they didn't write it, but you know, can you imagine? Don't you think Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John might have just at some point wanted to say that this is Revelation instead of talking about as a
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biography? Boss, do me a favor. Stop arguing from silence because now I can turn it against you saying, "Okay, you believe the entire Quran is revelation." Okay. Look, look, look, look.
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So, you're changing the topic. That's No, sure. Sure. [laughter] We'll finish this one. We'll finish this one. I I just think that we I you asked me to reiterate 47 to 48. Yeah. And I've already done I think
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No, you added it to biographies. Not your Where does it say not your biographies?
Speaker A
It says it says judge by revelation. And who told you that to a Christian when you tell him judge by the revelation that he does not assume Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is part of that revelation? We're not asking you.
Speaker A
Thank you for admitting assume. That's the point. Okay. So, you assumed it. No. No. You just said the word. Who? Why would you think that the Christian doesn't assume it? You do assume it.
Speaker A
But the context is the Christians. No, the context is people of the gospel who care about the the the So, you're right. Yeah, you're right. You're right.
Speaker A
It's people of the gospel, meaning Christians. You're right. They don't have revelation. They have biographies and in it may be statements from Jesus which is great and we can try to extract from that the best we can but when you have
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contradictions and when you have theologies that don't doesn't make sense it makes perfect sense for God to say therefore in verse 48 this is the therefore then therefore the conclusion is what you have to judge by what Allah has
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revealed in the context what oh no I'm going to turn against you first of all hold on because you keep going in circles let's brother, you're the Christian.
Speaker A
Because it's talking to you, the Christian, not to the Muslim. If I say to you, all people of the gospel, judge by what God has revealed to you.
Speaker A
As a Christian, do you assume the entire New Testament is revelation? Yeah. So, if I'm telling you, not the Muslim, with his commentary, judge by what God has revealed to you. Oh, gee, the New Testament is revelation from my God.
Speaker A
Thank you. I'm going to judge by it. We don't care for your opinion. We're talking about how the Christians would understand these terms. and they didn't share your assumption. Secondly, secondly, you again added to 548.
Speaker A
I'm glad I'm opening their eyes. That's what I'm trying to So, I'm hoping that you're opening your eyes and you're asking yourself, wait a second. It is true that I believe that it's revelation, but doesn't come to the
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verse that Jesus was revealed his own biography. So, so I know you believe that. Can I thank God that I'm here to make you start asking, wait a second, if Jesus talks about my words are not my own and that he's actually received
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revelation. Now my question is why is it why is it the case that we have books that are not in their original language that do have contradictions within them and they are not ever just why would they omit the fact that they're re
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your head because I want to turn it against them in the Quran. Why would they admit? Why would they never Can you imagine how bizarre it would be if you received revelation and you don't just even mention in your own book that by
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the way I received this. In fact, instead you talk about yourself running around picking up reports picking up reports for Can you stop preaching because I want to you just you preach to him right?
Speaker A
Yeah. No, Dude, if you're getting discombobulated, losing control, let me know because I can so you can focus. Let me now take every object and buried so this guy won't be nodding anymore. Okay. Now, let's come back to
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you. Okay. [laughter] Okay. Number one, you have assumed your definition of inspiration. That if a man is inspired, that he is free from the obligation to carefully verify that the revelation given to him is not simply his imagination or lies. But the eyewitness
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will confirm, yes, that's true. Stop reading your definition of revelation into Luke 1. It would be nice if he mentioned it, right?
Speaker A
Well, I'm going to tell you who mentioned it. 1 Timothy 5:18, quoting the Gospel of Luke, calls it scripture.
Speaker A
1 Timothy 5:18. Stop telling us how we define inspiration. You come to us, we'll tell you. 1 Timothy 5:18, it says, "For the scripture says, do not muscle an ox while it's shredding out the grain." Deuteronomy 25:4, for the labor is
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worthy of his wages. That's verbatim. Luke 10:7. And it's called scripture. So stop imposing your definition. Secondly, your Quran agrees with our view of inspiration. You know why? And I want you to nod your head. Go to Surahan and
Speaker A
Bak chapter 21. And I'm going to address all your points because you keep repeating them.
Speaker A
21 what? Right, brother? 21 105. You don't have I now guys, I want you to hear this.
Speaker A
Okay, whatever. The Quran is going to confirm our view of inspiration, not his. 21 105.
Speaker A
Yeah. And we have already written in the book of the Psalms. Now, what is the word book?
Speaker A
No, it doesn't say. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. means we've written phys it says and what zabora tell them what it means because they don't is usually translated as psalms psalms we have we have written in the psalms what did he write after what
Speaker A
uh after the previous mention that the land of paradise is after what though because after the right uh that's right yeah so the came before it what did we write in the psalms uh that the earth will be inherited by
Speaker A
by my righteous that's psalm 37 it was written by David. So is David your Allah?
Speaker A
No, no, [laughter] no, no. Be safe. No, no, no, no, no. Because Yeah. Psalm 37:29.
Speaker A
Okay. This is the Islamic dilemma, ladies and gentlemen. This is the Islamic dilemma. You get the point that that Okay, so you got the point. Do Do you understand that when God sends [clears throat] a messenger, the messenger delivers a message?
Speaker A
You just made my point. When you say when you say Moses said this and it's the word of God, you're not saying Moses is God. When you say that about David or the prophet said, my friend, do you get my point? No,
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you were doing you were doing much better a second ago. No, no. I'm going to do way better than you think because everyone got it, but you didn't get it.
Speaker A
Let me repeat again. Yes. David wrote that verse, but Allah says I wrote it.
Speaker A
Yes. Yes. He's a prophet. Which means Allah Yes. He's a prophet, not a disciple.
Speaker A
Yes. Go ahead. Well, we're going to get to the disciples. Don't run. We're going to get there. [laughter] So, that means my view of inspiration is correct according to your Quran, not yours. It's not divine dictation. God had David write those
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words. He goes, "I wrote it." So, that means the Quran is agreeing with our view of inspiration, not yours. So stop imposing your definition on our Bible.
Speaker A
Let me make my case, brother. I'm going with you. When you said Luke carefully investigating is not inspired. So I showed you even Quranically speaking, you have a wrong definition of inspiration. What do you not follow?
Speaker A
Uh I got your point. That So can we stop that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're fine.
Speaker A
Can we stop? I know you don't believe in Luke. I want to get to that point.
Speaker A
I mean you don't believe he's inspired. Yeah. He did his best to report. No. No. He did much better than the Quran. I'll show you in a minute. No, historically archaeologically it's fine. You also said, I want everyone to
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hear it. Okay, I want you to hear it. You especially primo, I want you to nod your head with this one. Okay.
Speaker A
[laughter] I don't think he's impressed. I want everyone to hear what you said. See, I'm hearing you. You think I'm not?
Speaker A
You said that in the Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, you don't have the words of Jesus in the original language. It's in Greek, right?
Speaker A
Uh, sorry. In the Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, it's not in his words, right?
Speaker A
Uh, to to what we know. No, he spoke Aramaic, right? So, it was in Greek. So you don't even have That's what you said, bro.
Speaker A
That was the point. Yeah, I made the point. Okay. What language? It's not the Islamic dilemma, but go ahead. No, no. I you you you made your point. Just to be clear, he made his point. I had a response. I said, you
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know what? Let's drop it for the sake of Islam. Now, he wants to go back to this addressing your point.
Speaker A
Go ahead. Keep But I just hope I get to the point. I don't want you to get painted as a guy who can't even deliver the Islamic dilemma because you're not even Oh, he's he's a This guy's like a
Speaker A
special you should do standup comed comedy, but sitting down. You'd be great at it. I think let's come back to the issue. I'm addressing your point.
Speaker A
You said I want you to hear it. We don't have Jesus's words in his mother tongue, right?
Speaker A
Do your thing, man. This guy doesn't want to even address. Doing. Doing. Do that now. Do it. Do it.
Speaker A
Do it. What language do you have Jesus speaking in your Quran? You know, go ahead.
Speaker A
What is it? Just make your point. What dialect? Please answer questions like I answer yours. Stop dodging.
Speaker A
Okay. Okay. Oh, sorry. What language do you have? Moses, Abraham. What language do you have? Ishmael, Isaac, Jonah, Jesus disciples speaking in the Quran. What language?
Speaker A
So you could just say the Quran doesn't mention the language of each prophet. What language does the Quran have them speaking in?
Speaker A
The Quran is in Arabic and they and the Quran does not mention each language that they spoke.
Speaker A
Then that's not my question. Do you get my question? Did I answer it? When the Quran quotes them, what language does it have them speak?
Speaker A
I already answered. Why you say I'm not answering? What's the language? Arabic. I just said it.
Speaker A
But not just Arabic. Kureshi Arabic, right? Sure. So can you give us historical evidence that Jesus spoke Arabic in the first century?
Speaker A
This is not good. This is I know it's a burial. This is not this is not a good You guys think it was good guys? Is any this this can't be Can you answer the question? Yes.
Speaker A
Okay, I'm going to be honest with you. Yeah, at this point I am starting to feel like you don't want to talk about the Islamic dilemma because you're saying the Quran was in Arabic and when it quoted prophets it quoted them in Arabic.
Speaker A
I'm using your argument to show you you're inconsistent. If you demand that I have to have Jesus's words in Aramaic, not in Greek, I'm going to demand I don't care. You have Jesus speaking Quresh Arabic, a language he did not know, neither
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prophets. Give me his original language. When the Quran says Isa said this, give me the Aramaic. Give it to me.
Speaker A
Okay, I'm going to answer you now, please. Can you answer? Can you give me a second? Can you give me second?
Speaker A
Yeah, I'm going to give you 10 seconds. The prophet Muhammad claimed to be a prophet receiving revelation from God and the disciples didn't make the claim that they're receiving revelation from God. it would be a good detail to
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mention. They just never did. Instead, what did they do? They simply described a biography. The prophet was talking about people from times that he could never meet. He didn't meet Abraham. He didn't meet Adam. And so clearly when he's saying,
Speaker A
"I'm a prophet. I'm receiving revelation and this is what has been revealed." Yeah, it's pretty clear what's going on here. So that therefore it's in the Arabic language so people the Arabs can understand it and it's a it's a eloquent
Speaker A
language so that later on the world can study and be very clear about it. That's great.
Speaker A
This has nothing to do with what you're talking about now. Now, okay. Hey, can I address that real quick?
Speaker A
Yeah, of course. Okay. I All you did was establish a principle, which I wanted you to do. You can have God inspire someone to take the words of a prophet in a language other than his own, and it still be accurate
Speaker A
and faithful. That's all I wanted you to admit. So, thank you for admitting it.
Speaker A
You caught it, right? I think everybody got the point. Okay. So, can we drop Hold on. Can we drop this argument? Muslims don't use this argument anymore that we don't have Jesus words in his mother tongue because you don't either. But you're going to
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say, "Well, we have it in the language of the prophets." So, what we're going to say to you as Christians, well, we have the words of the inspired authors.
Speaker A
You may not think they're inspired. They don't even say they are. Uh, you want to bet?
Speaker A
Do you want to go? You want to change it? No. I just want you to go to the the Islamic dilemma.
Speaker A
So, do we establish now your argument that it has to be in the original language?
Speaker A
Yeah. I've been doing Islamish kebab for the last two hours. Okay. Did we establish now? Do we establish now your arguments are very bad because it will then bury your very [clears throat] argument for Islam.
Speaker A
You got stop using these arguments. You got the conclusion. You're bad. Got it. That's a conclusion. Now what it is is don't use an argument that I don't have Jesus' words in his mother tongue. But in Greek because you don't
Speaker A
have any of the prophets except in the language of Muhammad. You assume he's a prophet like I assume Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are inspired.
Speaker A
This is reiteration. You understand? You saw how salvation I was with the reiterations. Are there particular verses, and I know you're gonna say, "I've been doing this whole time." I get it. But, um, is there a couple more?
Speaker A
Yeah. I I would like a verse that that any Christian could show to a Muslim and say, "You have to believe in your Bible today." What's the verse you're going to use?
Speaker A
Okay. When we talk about Islamic DM, and I don't know why you call me the OG. I don't know where I got that reputation, but you said OG. I don't know.
Speaker A
You're one of the first names when I raised Islam like more I came up among you guys.
Speaker A
You you you were one of the first names I've ever heard. Yeah. You're the OG, man.
Speaker A
And God is my witness. I'm not looking for that reputation. If I could just teach the Bible and disappear, I would.
Speaker A
But hey, you guys call me OG. I'm OG, bro. What's up? They call you the last boss.
Speaker A
What's up? Yeah, they call me LeBron James. Yeah, they call him the last boss.
Speaker A
They call me what? They call you the last boss. Good. Come on. Don't Don't I'm already puffed up. Don't get me more [laughter] puffed up, right?
Speaker A
Okay. Now, part of the Islamic dilemma is twofold. If you follow my arguments, it's not just what the Quran says about scriptures. It talks about the triumph of the Christians.
Speaker A
Oh, you're going to go to 61. It does. Well, 350. Is that what you want me to do? I'll bring it up. That's what go wherever you want.
Speaker A
Well, it's uh [sighs] 355 and 6114. 355 614. Yeah, I got you. I didn't know that you guys called me the Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker A
Yeah. May May I be forgotten by the grace of God. No one remember me.
Speaker A
You'll be remembered as the best Muslim inshallah. You're really praying hard for me, man.
Speaker A
I really I I Anyway, I I have I have conviction, but I'm crazy. [laughter] Uh 355. um and mentioned when Allah said, "Oh Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to myself." Well, okay.
Speaker A
Would you like to make Okay. The part of the Isla is that there's a promise in the Quran. Now, again, I appeal to it because you're a Muslim.
Speaker A
Yeah. If I'm talking to a barter man, I don't quote the Quran. Like when the Mormons come in, we're not going to be talking Quran. So, I say to the Let me put the Christian. If I was a Christian and a
Speaker A
Jewish person came up to me and he attacked the New Testament, I couldn't attack the Old Testament. Why? Because as a Christian, New Testament tells me believe in the Old Testament. So I'm in a dilemma. You can call it the Christian
Speaker A
dilemma. I get point. Yes. Okay. So since Christianity comes after the Old Testament, we have to now submit to it because Jesus told us this is what we see is a situation Muslims that you come later. Now you're in a dilemma. Not
Speaker A
just with the Old Testament, New Testament. But part of the argument, the dilemma is in 355 614 there's a promise made to Jesus. When Allah takes him, he says, "I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve and
Speaker A
they will be uppermost till the day of resurrection." Can I can I just This is easy. Uh we wouldn't believe that a trinitarian is following him. We would believe that a montheist is following him. So, I just don't think this makes your case.
Speaker A
All right. Well, I mean, I'll get to that. I mean, I will. I promise. You can disagree with me. Like I said, I mean, that's fine. But then the Quran says he kept the promise. 61:14.
Speaker A
Okay. Let's go there. Right. Sure. Yeah. there where it says that when Jesus came who will be my helpers for Allah and a party the children of Israel believed and there was a party disbelieved and we made those who believed
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victorious over the disbelievers. Okay. So now here's where remember Christian perspective if these are true statements Jesus's true followers conquered uh okay I'll I'll explain so historically we want to know who they are and what they taught. Now if someone then says
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well their message is corrupt then that means they were not victorious till the day of resurrection cuz it doesn't say they'll be victorious for a short time be defeated by Pauline Christians then Islam comes it says till the day of
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resurrection that's the dilemma you're quoting 614 it says till and 355 it says till the day of resurrection all right so you dealt with 355 mentioning that true okay okay but I just want to clarify 355 is talking
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about true followers and we do believe that they are going to be victorious this doesn't mean that every fight they fight they're going to be like I can't I can't lose I can't get punched in the face I I always win right so no there's
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going to be ups and downs but they are the superior ones because they are monotheists and that's true from the time of Isaam Jesus all the way down to judgment day so that would be one interpretation of that no problem
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now in terms of 614 it's specifically talking about at the time of Jesus himself because it's talking about disciples right so we're talking about that particular generation and it says what so a party of them believed right uh
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from the Israelites And a party of them disbelieve. Now God gave help to the believing party over their enemy. Now Allah could have said their enemies. But now this is where and I'm going to be honest. This is a little bit of exigesus here. Go
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ahead. [clears throat] But yeah, when it says that he gave them victory over their enemy.
Speaker A
Yes. Allah knows best. But I think that a fair reading of this verse is that amongst the uh uh uh disciples and amongst the believers at that time that believed in Jesus, they did have a clear enemy. And that
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enemy was Paul because he came in. Let me explain why. No, I'm good. [laughter] I know.
Speaker A
I don't get upset like that. You think he's an antichrist? I didn't word. I don't know why you're getting that word.
Speaker A
No, anti means against Christ. I'm just saying. Okay. I guess linguistically, sure. But anyway, um I don't get upset.
Speaker A
So, so what what I would say is that when it comes to Paul in particularly in particular, uh we find that how did they become so means to have victory over him and it also means to be evident. That's why the
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prayer is when the sun is the like the clearest, right? So means evident and also victorious. What's so beautiful, yeah, is that James was the belie was the head of the believers and James puts Paul in check in front of everybody and says,
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"Hey, people are making rumors about you, saying that you're against the law." And so, what we're going to do is we're going to make sure you fulfill the the rights. This is Acts, I think, like 21 or something.
Speaker A
Acts 21, I got it right. Look at that. I freestyled that one. So, uh, so Acts 21ish whatever.
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21. And what we have is now the believers recognizing James as a leader, putting him in place. And the reason it's is because a it's it's it's making him lower. It's like humbling him and uh making him in line with the actual
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message of Jesus. And secondly, the reason why it's because you have that text till today. So forever every single Christian can look at this and see that over their enemy that they became dominant over their enemy.
Speaker A
Thank you. That was very Well, you want to ask No, because I'm trying to engage you to assume I'm listening to you. I I do listen to you.
Speaker A
If you guys notice, I try to hear you carefully. So, when I do my head moves, not I'm not ignoring you. I listen [clears throat] when you went to Acts 21. So, this is where I'm saying it's one thing when the
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Muslim hears it and they're not convinced. That's fine. But when you quote this to show it to the Christian, you refuted the argument. The Christian is going to scratch his head, say, "Wait, the same Acts where in Acts 15,
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James is in agreement with Paul and Peter that you're saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ." That book of Acts, the same book of Acts where you have the Jewish followers of Jesus long before Paul's conversion
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teaching that Christ was killed, raised on a third day, he ascended to heaven, and he reigns as Lord over all. Acts 10:36-43. So this is where now the Christian sits back and says, "Wait, if you're going to quote James, Acts
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[clears throat] 21, read all of it. James is on Paul's side. Paul is on James side. Earlier in Acts 15, James is on the side of Paul and Peter, they're all preaching the same gospel." And this is the same book that says Peter before
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Paul showed up. Acts 2, Acts 3, Acts 10 taught that Christ was killed, [clears throat] raised on a third day, ascended physically into heaven, and he reigns as Lord. Even uses the word Lord of all, and he will return to judge the living
Speaker A
and dead. None of the book of Acts supports that they were the true followers in the Islamic sense because it's not Islam. So if they are the victorious ones, they're not teaching Islam.
Speaker A
Okay. So great. What I would say is that um as you already know, we don't agree with the entirety of the book. We're trying to highlight the parts that you believe in.
Speaker A
Now, you will say, "Hey, wait a second. There's other ideas here." Well, that's kind of our point that there are inconsistencies. You will find certain things that agree with your theology, and then there will there will be other
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things that create tension. Like, for example, practicing the law. It seems that James and the people around him, they definitely upheld laws and believed in a particular Sharia. I know you like that term, right? And then and then
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because of that what we would say is that even if not everything is the exact same as Islam that's okay at that time they may have had slight differences right but still we generally understand that [clears throat and cough] they had
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their sharia and Paul comes along and says that no more we are you know it's dead from the law it's it's over now and we we you know we're saved by uh faith alone and all this stuff and this is
Speaker A
actually funny enough I brought this up during Avery's debate and he literally just made a blank face and moved on. I don't think he doesn't know. So, so, so, so when it was very strange. I was like, is
Speaker A
it because he knows that Christians don't know this? But you know this. Thank God I'm talking to you.
Speaker A
I know. I know. So, he didn't address it. I I'll address with you. Yes.
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When it says that people will be running up to Jesus saying, "Lord, Lord," and he says, "Get away from me because you are anomos." Yeah. Without the law. Act 7:23.
Speaker A
I This is why you got to talk to the OG, right? Okay. So, doesn't Paul This is What's up, Brandon? What's up, Holmes?
Speaker A
Uh, doesn't Paul describe himself with the quality of anomos? Not just literally, not doesn't he just literally use that term and say, "I'm not under the law. I am anomos." So imagine Jesus literally making a prediction about the
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future, saying, "I'm warning you guys from somebody who is in the Greek anomos." And then later on in many places, Paul's describing that look, you're free from the law and these people, I wish they would chop off the whole thing because
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they're circumcising. And and and there's there's many examples of saying we're done with all that, justified by faith alone, etc.
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And then he literally uses that term. So, okay, we're definitely not talking about the Islamic dilemma anymore.
Speaker A
No, talk. I want you to bring this up. I'm No, I don't care. I'll call you that. Is that okay?
Speaker A
I'm not honest. I'm not trying to be humble. I'm not trying to be humble, but no, I already going back. Yeah. Yes.
Speaker A
Maybe. Okay. Coming back. Explain that. Go for it. Number one, uh, I don't know how other Christians will understand, Paul, because I know what you're referring to. You were referring to 1 Corinthians 9:20.
Speaker A
You're good. I don't know. But then we read 21. It says, "To those without the law, as one without the law, but I myself am not without the law. I'm under the law of Christ." That's 1 Corinthians 9:21. I'm under the law of
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Christ. What he means is when I'm preaching, if there's a Jewish person, I won't do something to offend them by going against the law unless they use an excuse to reject Christ.
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He goes, "But then you have heathens who don't fear God. I'm not going to come and shove the law down their throat. I'm going to teach them there is a God. You need to believe in him. And then when
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they submit, I will teach them to follow the law of Christ." So in 1 Corinthians 9:21, that's what you're referring to.
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9:20 without law. But then read 21. I'm under the law of Christ. So you can ask me about these. I don't mind. I don't mind. We can say you look it up. 1 Corinthians 9:201.
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Yet I am under the law of Christ. So he doesn't say he's lawless. He's under the law of Christ, not the law of Musa, the law of Christ. And in so far as Jews are concerned, now we're going to go back to
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Acts 21. I'm sorry. I think 1 Corinthians 9:20 to 21. I think you're I think you're saying it.
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Maybe I'm mistaken. Here we go. To the Jews, I became like a Jew to win the Jews. To those under the law, I became like one under the law. Though I myself am not under the law. That's right. That's to
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win those under the law. To those who not having the law, I became like one who have the law, though I am not free of God. Well, that's in brackets. So, No, no, no. That's in the Greek. That's
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[clears throat] brackets. That's in translation. Read it. What does it say? But but I am under Christ's law.
Speaker A
Wait, so read that 21 one more time. No, I I got you. You nailed it. You got it.
Speaker A
Okay. So, say I'm lawless. So, my question is then why does he constantly describe not being under the law? Yeah, I'll get to that. I I promise you I'll address everything. You can ask me these. We don't that we'll make it
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this topic, okay? Even what you quote in Acts 21, if you read 18 or 26, read it.
Speaker A
Don't take my word for it. I'm not saying believe it. You guys just read it.
Speaker A
The debate wasn't whether Gentiles were not ethnically Jewish, right? Should they still keep the law of Moses? That's not the context. The debate was we Jews, ethnic Jews, do we still keep those commands that Gentiles don't have to?
Speaker A
James says, he even says it in Acts 21:25. It's in the same chapter you refer to. He says, "As for the Gentiles, as far these are the laws we imposed on them, what it did not include was that
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you, a Gentile, need to get circumcised and keep kashut, what you could call halal." He goes, "We've told them, but we Jews," because the accusation was Paul, you're teaching Jews, don't keep the law of Moses. Nowhere will you find
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the letters of Paul that he's talking to the Jews. He's talking to the Gentiles because a group of Jews were coming in saying, "Hey, you got to get circumcised." Because no, they don't.
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That James agrees with him. That's why I say when you go to Acts 21, go to Acts 15. Because that was the debate. In [clears throat] Acts 15, you start at one. A group of Jews were debating Paul
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and Barnabas saying, "No, Gentiles have to get circumcised like us." They go, "No, they don't." They went to Jerusalem. James presiding, James agreed with Paul. So, there's no contradiction if we read in context. James agreed with Paul. Peter agreed with Paul. Gentiles
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don't have to get circumcised and keep those parts of the law of Moses. Here are the laws they keep. We Jews, however, to show honor to the God of Moses and sending the Messiah, we will keep those laws. And Paul never said no.
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He's talking to Gentiles. So, the whole thing about like uh removing uh what's it called? Jews or or what's it called? Uh Galatians 2, Galatians 5.
Speaker A
So, why did why did he s circumcise Timothy? Because he's Jewish. That's Acts 15.
Speaker A
Yeah. Actually, that's because he's Greek. His father's Greek. It says mother's Jewish. Acts 163. Open it up.
Speaker A
I'll take your word for it. It says because his mother was Jewish, he got circumcised. But in Galatians 2 verse three, Titus who was a Greek, had no Jewish blood, he refused to get circumcised.
Speaker A
Interesting. Okay. Good stuff. So where did all the rumors come from that James had to clarify?
Speaker A
I don't know. You're asking me? I don't know. [laughter] No. So that's the context. So Acts does not support that Paul was lawless because they all agree we follow the law of Christ. But the law of Christ, remember this goes back to why I said I
Speaker A
don't have a problem with abrogation. Now you're going to see why I'm consistent. Just like I was telling you that Muham means you the Quran is your Sharia. So if the Quran tells you get circumcised, which was the Sharia of MS, you get
Speaker A
circumcised. But if the Quran tells you you don't keep Sabbath, then you're free. That's what we believe. If we're informed Christians, if you have a Christian who knows his dean, if he I'm not trying to attack anybody. I'm just
Speaker A
saying. I don't know. I guess. So if he knows his dean, he's going to tell you yes, the law of Moses we follow in so far that Jesus tells us this is what you follow or his disciples said this is what you follow. But when
Speaker A
they say you're freed from that, we don't follow it. For example, even with dietary restrictions in the law of Moses, you couldn't eat camel and you couldn't sacrifice camel. In your Sharia, you can.
Speaker A
Okay? So we don't say that's not an argument. I don't use that against Muslims. I don't say, "Oh, you see?" No, because then I'd be inconsistent. You get it?
Speaker A
Well, you were earlier saying that any if if uh the Quran is saying that it's being affirmed by the previous prophets and they disagree with those previous prophets in any way, then we're going to throw it throw throw it out
Speaker A
the theology. No, I was talking about the theology taught by those prophets, not the Sharia and diets. That wasn't my point. What I was saying is if I read the Quran and it has a different view of what the Bible says about God and his
Speaker A
nature of Christ, that's when we say, "Sorry, we can't follow you." Well, okay. Well, then I think I'm on solid ground because I think, you know, the Jews would do the same thing with you guys. So, yeah, I know that.
Speaker A
Yeah. I told you we have a dilemma. So, what we got to do for the Jews? Yeah.
Speaker A
As a Christian, you know what we do? I can't say, "Hey, your Torah is corrupt." Cuz he's going to nail me. You know, he's going to nail me.
Speaker A
No, no. I'm talking about I'm talking about I'm talking about creed. So the Jews are going to look at us and be like, "Thank you Muslims for at least holding on to Monis properly." So if if you're going to say it's restricted to
Speaker A
to to then I would say that we're we're chilling. Uh no. Yeah. [laughter] So my my point with the Jews, you're in some hot water.
Speaker A
No, I know that. I know the Jews and this is a fact for you don't know. They have a concept called aod. Christians are considered idolatrous, but Muslims consider worship same god. I know this.
Speaker A
So they they I saw a beautiful clip of a bunch of Jews. You're happy, huh?
Speaker A
What's up? [laughter] What happened? Huh? Huh? So, how come you can't tell? You can't be nodding.
Speaker A
I'm just kidding. Okay. Okay. You know what? I could I was about to go No, no. Talk.
Speaker A
I was about to go further, but I really want to go to the assignment dilemma.
Speaker A
Okay. Give me your So, you talked about what's it called? Uh 355 and you talk about 6114 and we dealt I I've given my answer and whatever. Whoever feels that that's uh good or not, that's fine. Let's go to
Speaker A
another one. Okay. You want me to skip that? You don't want me to address it from more fully? Well, I mean, it was brief.
Speaker A
That's up to you, man. Please tell me I'm not skipping it right now. not skipping it but to elaborate but if you want I'll go somewhere else it's up I genuinely thought you elaborated very well and I thought I'll respect that or
Speaker A
we'll do that okay other passages beside [clears throat] that one okay we can skip that because you said Paul was lawless nonetheless not according yeah uh uh uh okay I I don't want I don't want to keep going I made my case and
Speaker A
inshallah people online can can figure out if there is some sort of a theology of Jesus and the theology of Paul if there's some differences there I know that Muslims make a big case about this and I think that people can do their own
Speaker A
research let's go for the next one the other verses. You you you're familiar with them. It's all going to be in surah bakra, but we're not going to read all of them.
Speaker A
Well, we can do a bunch. I can do a bunch. Okay. I'm happy. Do you want to Well, we can go to Bakr 240 to 44 or nicely done.
Speaker A
We can go to surah bakra ay 89. Which one do you want to start with?
Speaker A
Uh I think you mean Oh. Oh, yeah. 89. Yeah, we can do all of them. Okay, let's go for because 40 to 44 is a little lengthy because your time is running out, too.
Speaker A
So, you want No, I'll make this I'll make this quick. Uh Bakr 2 verse 89.
Speaker A
No, no, you said 40. You just say, "Oh, but you want to read that lengthy one?" That's fine. 40 to 44.
Speaker A
Yes. Of course, man. That's what I'm here for. I feel No, it's up to you because I didn't sensitive.
Speaker A
Uh, oh children of Israel, remember my favor which I have bestowed upon you and fulfill my covenant upon you that I will fulfill your covenant from me and be afraid of uh only me of me only. Okay, then. So, that's pretty straightforward.
Speaker A
That doesn't Okay, now this is the this is the one that you want. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker A
and believe in what I have sent down confirming that which is already with you mentioned three times in the Quran. Now uh uh this answer that I'm giving is the same answer that I would give for 447 for 447 not for the uh 381 because we've
Speaker A
already talked about that because 289 says the same thing at all these 289 91 97 101 difference so this is [clears throat] and the three that you're mentioning is so 89 91 101 those are different I got them all ready that's right that's what
Speaker A
I wanted to do to be honest okay let's go so this is pretty straightforward stuff and believe in what I have sent down that is confirming what is with you.
Speaker A
Yep. Okay. That's right. Yeah. So, is this a reference to the entirety of what Allah is sending down? No. There could be that Allah is sending down some revelation that disagrees with you. It could be sometimes Allah is sending
Speaker A
revelation that agrees with what you have and Allah is saying. So, the word is it's a so anything that I send down that is in the state of agreeing with what you already believe, don't throw it under the bus because it's in your own
Speaker A
belief system. So, let's give a simple example. I'm very happy that I think you're going to agree with me on this one.
Speaker A
Okay, let's see. So, is it the case that there are Christians that say, "I can't believe in Mohammad because Mohammad went to war and Jesus never went to war." I know you're educated men. You would say to them, you would say to them, "Uh, excuse
Speaker A
me, you just threw every single prophet under the bus cuz clearly prophets go to war." That's a bad argument, right? So, Christians do this all the time. They do this with polygamy, right? It's in your book. It talks about polygamy saying if
Speaker A
you want to be a marry a second make sure you treat the first one with get give her her clothes give her her her food. This is in the Bible. Christians throw this stuff under the bus regularly. Meanwhile, why to attack
Speaker A
Islam? So this verse is saying don't be the first one to reject what's in your own book. This is not a confirmation of everything that is with them. This is a confirmation of saying what? When you have a belief system and
Speaker A
you see that a prophet is receiving this revelation, he's like, "I'm gonna reject this prophet and I'm gonna attack those ideas." That's in your own book.
Speaker A
Yeah. Go ahead. Well, I know, but like I said, we both are going to accuse the other of reading into it. You said all that.
Speaker A
Yes. But if you look at 41, it didn't say anything you said. No, [laughter] I'm going because we didn't finish the 44. I'm going to get there.
Speaker A
Because it says confirming with you, it [clears throat] didn't qualify it the way you did. But would you like me to show you from I can like show me Arabic grammar. I'm not I'm not going into we've we've also
Speaker A
dissected it. I understand the word ma means what? Yes. Okay. And so believe in what I have revealed. What I have revealed that is what I have revealed that is confirming with what you have.
Speaker A
Yeah. What they have exactly. So that means if God sends a verse of Quran to his prophet and that says give charity, is that confirming what you have? Of course it is. Right. So, it' be kind of weird if you say, "Why are you
Speaker A
giving that guy charity, man? You're wasting your money." I'd say, "Brother, don't you have a book that says you should give charity?" Oh, you're confirming everything in my book. I didn't say I'm confirming everything.
Speaker A
God is saying when God sends you revelation and in it what of what he I send that is confirming in the had in the state of confirming what is with you. Don't be the first to disbelieve in it. Please.
Speaker A
Again, I appreciate you gave me an example. Had the Quran given such an example, then you could have made your case. No, no, I didn't. I know because I know I love you. I swear we're at peace right now. You filled my heart with so
Speaker A
much love and joy. Honestly, okay. It didn't make the qualification you did. It says confirming what is with you. No qualification like you did.
Speaker A
You qualified it. You said see if I say, "Brother, give charity." And I say, "Why should I?" Well, here isn't it in your book. And I agree. The Quran didn't make that qualification. In point of fact, well, I'll get there. I promise you.
Speaker A
Read all the way to 44. You stop at 41. Read 42, 43. Let's go to 42. I've heard I've seen your response to this. Let's go. 42.
Speaker A
Do not mix truth with falsehood or conceal the truth while you know it. What is your point there?
Speaker A
Okay. Well, keep reading 44. I'll give you a point here. I I have a response. I want to hear also you because you teach the book, right? You read the book.
Speaker A
Okay. Okay. Well, anyway. Okay. We'll drop that one. But I have a good response. Okay.
Speaker A
I know you have your stuff, man. I man hopefully, bro. Shoot. Then all of you will come to my church then. And I want See, but you're praying. Okay. You want to drop that? But anyway, coming back.
Speaker A
No, no. Okay. Well, well, that that one that one's an easy one, but you're not you don't want to make The question is it says, "Though you are a reader of the book 44, right?" We go to 44.
Speaker A
No, but I want to tie in with what you said. You have the truth, don't conceal it.
Speaker A
Can I Can I read 44? Go ahead. Yeah. Because you mentioned it. Uh, do you order righteousness of the people and forget yourselves while you recite the scripture? Then will you not reason? Excellent. What?
Speaker A
So, they have the truth, right? Don't mix it with falsehood. Perfect. The scripture. So in the context confirming what what is with them.
Speaker A
Okay. So now thank you. You did make the case. There you go. So verse 42 says what I understand your point. You're saying when you say don't mix truth with falsehood that's a confirmation that they have the entirety of the truth. Now
Speaker A
allow me to show you why that's not a very sound argument. The reason it's not a sound argument is because I could be talking to an atheist who has no scripture, nothing. And he could be a uh what's it called? a dishonest engage
Speaker A
with me in a you know bad faith bad faith conversation right interlocking. Oh, when that person is speaking in bad faith and kind of twisting things and dodging things, just whatever, right? I could say, "Bro, stop twisting truth with falsehood."
Speaker A
Imagine if he turned around and and then said to me, "Ah, you agree I have access to all truth, don't you?" I'd be like, "Buddy, that is such a stretch." So, that's it. No, you want to move to the
Speaker A
next one. No, let me now address you because number one, you again gave an example.
Speaker A
Yeah. In order to explain what you think the verse doesn't mean, but the passage didn't say what you said. If you read it, confirm what is with you. No qualification. Number one, I'm just let is a I'm going to show you, but I'll show
Speaker A
you. Anybody who studies Arabic [clears throat] knows what I'm talking about. Okay, but even was used in 546.
Speaker A
It's used in 548. It's used in chapter 3:3. It's used the same. Let's take this.
Speaker A
Okay, that's because you keep mentioning. Okay, go ahead. Yeah, but we get to because it's also used of Isa in the Quran, which we spent two hours ago. But now coming back here.
Speaker A
Yeah, it says confirming what is with you. So the question is what is with them? We didn't establish that yet. That's why I say look at 44. What is with them the scripture? So the contextual reading if I read it in context
Speaker A
it's saying this Quran confirms what's with you meaning your scripture. So the first point I'm trying to establish is I have to know the identity of the scripture at the time of Muhammad before I can move to the second point.
Speaker A
So what was the scripture that the Quran confirmed? May I respond? Good stuff. Thank you. So, I'm going to I'm going to answer you.
Speaker A
So, God says, "Do you guys command to goodness?" Just to be clear, you agree, I agree. I think we both agree that goodness is something that is innate in the soul, right?
Speaker A
So, whether you're born in this family or that family, there's certain good things, you know, not to like, I don't know, torture animals or something, you know, how charity is good, truth is good, things like this, right?
Speaker A
Yes. So, yes, decency and goodness is a universal. Now, it's saying, do you order righteousness of the people and forget yourselves while you recite the scripture? Yep. Now you're saying, look, it's very obviously saying that you have to accept the entirety of the scripture.
Speaker A
Right? Now let's imagine, hey, we got Mormons with us, right? We got some. Okay. So to the Mormons, let's say mean you both don't believe in their book, right? [clears throat] Couldn't I make the case? Couldn't I make the statement to a Mormon? He gets
Speaker A
up on what's their day of the week? What's what's their speech day? Sabbath. Seth.
Speaker A
What is it? Is it Saturday or Sunday? Sunday. Sunday. So on I'm sorry. I literally don't know. It's very embarrassing. I apologize.
Speaker A
[clears throat] So on Sunday, uh let's say he gets up, Mormon preacher, and he preaches charity or any other any other decency or goodness. Yeah.
Speaker A
Right. And I say to this guy, do you seriously command your congregation to be righteous and forget about your yourself while you read the scripture?
Speaker A
This could be a reference to Mormon scripture. Don't you use your reason? Now imagine if he turns around to me and says, "Ah, you just confirmed my entire scripture.
Speaker A
So you're a Mormon then. Come on." No. Then he would if [clears throat] he said that, then I'd then have to then explain and qualify. No, that's not what I mean. The qualification you're giving me, it's not in the verses. This is my
Speaker A
point I'm trying to get at. Don't nod your head, bro. You're showing your bias. [laughter] I caught that. You see, that's Yeah.
Speaker A
Don't nod your head, bro. I'm telling you, inshallah. Inshallah, [clears throat] I think there's an honesty with you. And inshallah, Allah, guides our hearts. Honestly, I'm being honest.
Speaker A
Listen, don't be offended. We think Christianity is true. So, we pray for all of you. Is that okay? Because we think so. You're not going to be offended.
Speaker A
I'm not trying to be mean, but I with with certain other people who I don't have to mention. I definitely didn't get that impression at But my point, [laughter] I'm just being honest. You even though I got the worst reputation
Speaker A
of all the apologists, I'm the one. Right. So I think I think is that what I am?
Speaker A
I love this guy. Abdah man, I love you, man. I think the temper I think the temper comes out and that's fine. That's one thing. But alham I was born angry, bro. I came out of my mother's stomach angry, bro.
Speaker A
Thank you for being an honest guy. You know what? You know, the last time I was 120bs, I was a month old. Yeah. I came out 120 pounds a struggling with weight, bro. Shoot. But anyway, coming back time. You got 15 minutes. the
Speaker A
[clears throat] qualification you're making. That's how I know you're not going to confirm the Book of Mormon. If a guy says, "Oh, so you're saying my scriptur is truth." No, no, no, no. I'm saying what you quoted from that part of
Speaker A
scripture is true. That qualification is necessary in order for you to show to the Mormon, you don't mean you confirm the entire book. So, what I'm coming back here is showing you that in the verses that we're citing, that
Speaker A
qualification is not there. Well, that's why I went through each of them. Yeah, but it's there even in 289 to where it doesn't talk about.
Speaker A
Let's go. Thank you. Let's go. Let's go to the next one. So, we're I want to show you also verses where the word sodak is used. I want to ask for your interpretation, but go to 289.
Speaker A
Okay. So, we're going to go through three of them. It's 289 29 911. They all [clears throat] say they all say the same thing, right? Okay.
Speaker A
Perfect. Now, I'm going to make a case. Go ahead. And it's not based on it's just based on the actual context. Let's let's let's bring it up. Go ahead. So let's start with 279.
Speaker A
God in the Quran, hold on one second. So God says in the Quran that they changed the word with their they changed a scripture. Excuse me. They changed a scripture.
Speaker A
Wrote a book with their own hand and said it's from I'm trying to tell you what the verse says. It says they wrote a book with their own hand. Not changed.
Speaker A
They wrote a book with their own hand. Just want to say I'm helping you. Yeah.
Speaker A
So So okay, just everybody read it yourselves. Yes. Okay. Read it yourselves. I am saying and you don't have to believe me. I'm saying that 279 is demonstrating that clearly they mess with scripture. This is my interpretation. You can agree or
Speaker A
disagree if you'd like. I'm saying that they mess with scripture in 279. So therefore, when it comes to scripture, we're not fully agreeing or fully denying, right? But we don't fully agree. We don't fully deny. That's that's that's being established right
Speaker A
here. Cool. Okay. We move a little bit forward. So now we have a book. This your old scriptures that we're we're asking ourselves how much is true, how much is false, we're not sure.
Speaker A
Now in verses 83 and 84, God describes a mak a covenant. That's right. It has five commands and two prohibitions. And God says what? That in this I'd love for you guys to pull it up so you can see.
Speaker A
In this covenant, and I can read you what the covenant is. Yeah. In this covenant, this is what was authentic from the past prophets.
Speaker A
And now what's beautiful is that now when you move on to 89, 91, and 101 when it says confirming what is with you, what is this? What is it? The entirety of the scripture? Well, no, because we just said 79. You can't trust all of it.
Speaker A
Is it just contextually right before is it this basic covenant of what makes a decent believer? Yes. And this is exactly the point that God is saying, I sent you a messenger and he confirms the covenant that not only was sent to you
Speaker A
in the past, but you have it with you now. And I just described it and yet you still do what? Verse 89, you still disbelieve in it. Verse 91, you still disbelieve. You know it's the truth. And verse 101, you throw it behind your
Speaker A
backs. Do the Jews and Christians do that with this covenant? I would say point number one of the covenant is monotheism. Yes. Unfortunately, it's all over your book. It's all over my book and you're still trinitarian, which is
Speaker A
heartbreaking. Then hold on. When it comes to the Jews, when it comes to the Jews yeah it mentions in the last two in verses in verse 84, it talks about what it talks about killing people and exiling people.
Speaker A
And God confirms in the very next verse 85 that they do kill and exile people.
Speaker A
They have done that. And as you said a second ago, turn on the news. What do you see? Killing and exiling people every day paid for by the Christian.
Speaker A
Unfortunately, but I know you disagree with it. Thank God. So, my point is that when God So, do you see that the continuity?
Speaker A
You know, by the way, you're gonna get us censored. You know that, right? Okay. Uh I know. No, I'm saying on on uh we're going to get censored if we talk about Zionism. You know that, right?
Speaker A
Speaking the truth, I'm just I'm glad we're on the same page. We all We all got to We all got to die some. We all No, we're going to get Yeah. [laughter] So, if you if you don't see this video
Speaker A
online because you know why? Because you're going to keep this, right? Yeah. It's being honest, right? Are we lying? I'm not doing Yeah. Just some of the words just let you know because when you just blank it out can't blank out the words
Speaker A
because you're not Yeah, you may get censored. I'm just letting you know. Please keep it and blank the words.
Speaker A
Okay. So [clears throat] coming back to 279 again don't take my word for if you open up it says woe to those who write the book with their own their own hand and say this is from Allah to gain a poulry
Speaker A
miserable. But if you read the context number one it talks about a party of them not all of them. I know the verse. If you look at a party of them, but the same Quran tells us in surah Iran chapter 3 ayat
Speaker A
11314, not all of them are alike because there's a party of them that do what is righteous.
Speaker A
Yeah. Okay. So, you took a verse that talks about one group at a specific place at a specific time.
Speaker A
No one denies because even the Quran itself talks about the Quran being tampered with in the lifetime of your prophet. But you said it says 279. No, no, no. 279 doesn't say.
Speaker A
No, read 279 first. Yeah. So woe to those who write the scripture with their own hand and say this is from Allah in order to exchange for it a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to
Speaker A
them for what they have earned. Never says a party. 75 to 79. I know. I thought maybe we can read 75 79. So you can see 7579. You see it's a party.
Speaker A
275 right? That's the context. Starts at 75. Sure thing. 275. Uh yes. Do you covet?
Speaker A
Uh party them you of a line to Yes. This is different talking about a different thing.
Speaker A
But just keep reading. Yeah, sure. I'll read it right. Do you covet? Do you covet the hope, O believers, that they would believe for you uh for you? Uh yeah. While a party of them used to hear the word of Allah
Speaker A
and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing. That's perfectly fine.
Speaker A
Keep reading. I'm just I agree with you. Okay. And I'm going to show you from 31314.
Speaker A
Can I just make a quick comment here? You do understand that in taps or in the scholarly commentary there are some scholars that take your position but again there's an avalanche of scholars that take my position.
Speaker A
That's why I'm sticking with the Quran. I didn't go to scholars. Fair enough. Good morning.
Speaker A
Uh so uh uh so we said strike the slain man with a party of it. Oh no sorry where where did 75 76 um yeah 74 uh then your hearts became hard after that being like stones were even harder. Yes. This is talking about
Speaker A
a but 75 79. You start at 75, you 76, 77, 78 79. My bad. My bad. My bad. That was my fault. Uh and when they meet those who believe, they say, "We have believed." But when they are alone with the ones uh
Speaker A
they uh with with one another, they say, "Do you talk to them about what Allah has revealed to you?" So they can argue with you about it before your Lord, then will they not reason. But do they not
Speaker A
know that Allah knows what they can say and what they declare? and among uh and among them among them.
Speaker A
Yeah. Are unlettered ones who do not know the scripture except in wishful thinking. Yes.
Speaker A
Okay. So the entire context is not talking about all of them. Even 79 is connected with a context speaking of a group to confirm my interpretation using just the Quran.
Speaker A
So I'm not using taps. If you go to chapter 3, but that doesn't help you at all. If if if you have a party of people that are playing with scripture and another party of people that are not playing with
Speaker A
scripture. So now you have a bunch of different scriptures running around. It kind of confirms what history tells us that that's why there are so many different variant texts.
Speaker A
And so you're saying are you follow like you get my point? No, I understand what you're saying. But my point that's uh no one says that no one at any point in history hasn't corrupted any text. That's true of the
Speaker A
Quran. That's true of the Bible. The point being because you have hundreds of thousands of people all over the world with their copies, you can detect corruption in manuscripts and still restore the original. That's how textual criticism works across the board. It's not just
Speaker A
true of the Bible. It's true of the Quran. But that's why I want to put textual criticism aside. The fact that I'm right that it's only a party of them. Surah chapter 31314 and chapter 3 verse 189. Can you read
Speaker A
that for me? I I I'm I'm Yeah, sure. But do you This isn't helping.
Speaker A
It's going to help if I finish the [laughter] point. I'm just No, no, no. We'll do it. We'll do it.
Speaker A
What you say? Three what? 3113 114. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. They're not all the same. Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. So, they are not all the same among the people of the scripture as a community standing. Read it out loud. They are not all the same among the people of the scripture as a community standing in obedience reciting
Speaker A
the verses of Allah during period during periods of the night and prospering. Yes, there are sincere Christians definitely. but that do recite the verses the way they're supposed to be recited right?
Speaker A
Uh yes. Yes. Yes. And then 3199 confirms it 3199. Yes. That they're not all.
Speaker A
So look, let me let me let me clarify this that uh do they recite uh scripture?
Speaker A
Yes. There's nothing wrong. We do not we do not deny. But if you finish that, they won't sell it. That group in 279 wrote a book so they can sell and profit it. Yeah. This group would not sell the signs of Allah.
Speaker A
That's great. Okay. Yeah. Right. So now what we have what we have is a long Christian history. Yes. Of people that sometimes have scripture and are sincere and pray and worship and they try to hold on to the truth.
Speaker A
We acknowledge that. And then there's a different group that are twisting scripture, adding things.
Speaker A
And then when you take a look at that and contrast it with history, what you have are so many gospels, some of which made it into the canon, some of which didn't make it into the canon. Some copy
Speaker A
copiest. I mean, there are Bibles that you can literally say, "Oh, this one, this one's been edited out. This one's been removed. This one we agree with.
Speaker A
This one we don't agree with." Then there's like people talk about uh uh what's it called? Oh, no. When we look at the ancient, what's it called? The uh which one?
Speaker A
I don't know. Maseretic texts and they talk and they also talk about what's it called? Exactly. Right. There's so many commentary like this is confirming what I'm saying that there are sincere amongst us. So it's nice that Muslims
Speaker A
don't paint people with one brush that we recognize that there is truth that some people hold on to the best they can and other people that mess with it and unfortunately because of this bit of a mishmash throughout history the
Speaker A
prophet Muhammad came to do what I know you don't like it but clarify all the distortions yeah but again now coming back to the issue yeah [clears throat] you keep reading into the passages what you're assuming to be
Speaker A
I just agree with you no not you didn't agree with me and you saying that oh yeah there are corrupt manus manuscripts and that's why we don't know what the original Bible says. That's not the argument of the Quran. Nor is that the
Speaker A
argument of textual criticism. That's why I'm trying to establish a point. I'm letting you talk so you don't think I'm cutting you off. If I read the Quran as a whole in context, there's only one specific group that's tampering with the
Speaker A
scriptures, but the rest because even in 27579, who is the audience? Who are these people that heard the word of Allah and twisted it?
Speaker A
We're talking is Benny. So note, so at best what you're telling me is there's Jews who are corrupting the scriptures, but those same scriptures are in the pres presence of Christians all over the world. They won't change the scriptures to agree
Speaker A
with the Jews. So you haven't proven that the Quran is saying this isn't giving the time period. You you keep on restricting it to a very particular time period.
Speaker A
Surah, it says that they did the same thing time of your prophet. Surah 4:44 to 46.
Speaker A
246. No, not two. Surah chapter 4. I said I meant 44 to 46. I got you read right there.
Speaker A
Have you not seen those who were given the portion of the scripture purchasing errors in exchange wishing and Allah's knowing of your enemies? Look.
Speaker A
Yes. Okay. So, it's a time Muhammad, right? This one is what about Bakra? Because if I go to Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm I'm actually really glad that you follow what I'm saying. Thank you very much.
Speaker A
Yes, you did find a spot that is saying that people try to mess with scripture at a particular time period.
Speaker A
Not scripture, the words that we're hearing from your prophet. That's the context of 444 to 46. So would you say when they heard his words and twist that they were corrupting the Quran?
Speaker A
They were trying to. But did they succeed? I would say no. But were they changing the text or the interpretation what they were hearing?
Speaker A
Either way. No. But interpretation. They're trying to. So all you've established is that there were people when they heard the word they misinterpreted it in. Yes.
Speaker A
Yeah. Even Yeah, I'm [clears throat] getting there. And all if you want me to go outside of the Quran, go ahead.
Speaker A
No, you've made your you made your case and I understand it now. Thank you. Now I I for a second there I was wondering where you're going. Now I get your point. Yes, it's clear. It's good.
Speaker A
So this is contextual. Previously it was not. You're restricting it to a time period that's not that's not granted. Go ahead.
Speaker A
I'll go outside of the Quran to tell you that they say this was at the time of MS.
Speaker A
So what do you want me to do? Because if I go to the commentaries they go that surah bakra 275 means at the time of ma when they heard it they twisted it.
Speaker A
Sure. But like you just said I'm following you. Just because in surah 4:44-46 [clears throat] it says they heard the words of your prophet and twisted it that doesn't mean they corrupted the text of the Quran they were hearing it orally and
Speaker A
misinterpreting it similarly according to those commentators because you wanted the historical context situated they go that when some of the ban is heard Moses you do realize that this doesn't say anything about writing with their hands right I know that I want to get
Speaker A
444 to4 I'm So you're you're you're trying to make a parallel that doesn't really There is a parallel because there's a parallel in a degree is to mess with the scripture, but it doesn't actually it doesn't specifically say uh
Speaker A
uh scribes. Go ahead. I love this guy, man. That's why I can't be mean because I love this guy. All right.
Speaker A
That's very sweet of you. But coming coming to Bakra, what I'm trying to is I'm following your logic.
Speaker A
You admit it was the Jews. So yeah, you said it's Jews. So we establish it's the Jews. It's not every Jew everywhere because you admit there's historical context. So maybe these Jews were corrupt but the rest of the Jews and all
Speaker A
the Christians were not corrupt like these Jews. So we establish it's still a group. Secondly, it is a particular group that's writing the book with their hand. And in the context you admit it's the Jews. What has that got to do with
Speaker A
the scriptures in the hands of the Christians that also had the Old Testament and New Testament and would not fall prey for a book concocted by Jews in order to make money? How does that prove wholesale corruption? That's
Speaker A
what the Quran is teaching. So when when just to be clear when we talk about toadam I don't know of Muslims what when we're talking about the Torah that Isaam had that Jesus had I don't know that Muslims are walking around or believing
Speaker A
that Isa that Jesus was walking around with his own copy version something like this no but he was given and inspired with the Torah meaning the law that means he knew God's law better than anybody completely uncorrupted completely authentic and could prove it
Speaker A
to the Pharisees and would argue with the Pharisees and would thwart them and beat them in argumentation to prove that he had the correct perspective.
Speaker A
understanding etc. You want me to address that? So, so, so what I'm saying is that everything you're saying, and I'm not trying to be rude. I'm not really seeing how it's helping you because you're right. There's your head, man. Oh, you're nodding for
Speaker A
him. You're not for me now. Hey, I'll take it. I wasn't doing the whole thing.
Speaker A
You got a nod for me then. [laughter] So, so what I'm saying is that we don't have the printing press back then. Yes. You have small groups of scribes here and there. And so when small groups of scribes, one party of
Speaker A
them is trying to be faithful, other parties are trying to mess around. What you're going to have is now copies going around that are, you know, making issues.
Speaker A
And so when you have that, there's nothing wrong with the Muslim then saying that. Yeah. And by the way, this is corroborated in history. Again, I I don't want to be So you can I'm just waiting for I don't want to be repetitive, but like
Speaker A
yeah, I even talked about the Catholic version, Protestant version, etc. And I know you're going to say, well, they're different uh not necessarily uh writing errors, but there are different books and this is a big deal. So, what I'm
Speaker A
trying to say, I could address that, but your time is almost up, but go ahead.
Speaker A
Oh, snap. Subhan Allah. No, but I want to address that. Thank you very much, by the way. This has been great. Uh, but yes, I do hope that you uh see my point that you're you're trying to We have to be honest. We can't pretend
Speaker A
we know everything that was happening. Like, no, no, I know 2,000 years ago. I knew I knew all the copious by name and I know the group that was bad and how they lost their perver their perverted version and I know the good ones and how
Speaker A
they were. We don't know any of this stuff. Yes. Right. So, it's a little bit of a stretch. I think I am am in a much safer position to say look since we're things are ambiguous and things have
Speaker A
come to us from the past and that there's a lot of textual variance and issues and people are not sure what books to include, what books to not include when God describes some people being faithful, some people being
Speaker A
unfaithful to the scripture. Yeah. Yeah. It seems perfectly in line. Go ahead. Okay. To say that Jesus learned the Torah so [clears throat] that he had the correct understanding but not necessarily the scriptures at that time.
Speaker A
That's why we spent I'm sorry. I'm asking this for a long time. My brain is lagging. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker A
The Torah that Jesus confirmed was what was taught to him. Revelation. Yes. Okay. Not so much the scriptures, but he had the Torah because it was inspired to him and he could tell the Jews this is what it means.
Speaker A
Yes. The problem [clears throat] with your interpretation, we spent two hours on it. That's why we we keep spinning wheels. It's fine because we, you know, in that that statement in surah al maida 543 to48 the Torah that Jesus confirms is in the
Speaker A
context of exhorting the Jews at the time Muhammad. See this Torah you have that Torah Jesus confirmed. In other words, it's not simply what Allah revealed to Jesus.
Speaker A
I'm sorry to say I think you're kind of reading. Well, let me let me cut you off. No, but actually that's a contextual meaning.
Speaker A
Anyone can read it because that's the context. Why do you Jews come to Muhammad when you have the Torah? And then it says, "The prophets judged by it. Jesus also confirmed it." It makes no sense in that context to tell the
Speaker A
Jews, look, Jesus confirmed this Torah, the Torah I'm telling you to judge by if it's not simply [clears throat] what you're saying, what he was inspired to know as opposed to confirming their copies.
Speaker A
So, can I can I clarify this? So yeah, we're going to have to close, but basically the reason why I would say my position is actually strong is because of uh 350 where Allah does talk about Jesus having the same dual function when
Speaker A
he says exactly right. Exactly. So and we have come confirming what was before me, what was before me of the Torah. So I'm confirming that and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you.
Speaker A
But it goes back to the original argument. So it doesn't say that that Allah forbid for them. It's just this was forbidden for you. So it's using the maj. It's using the the the the passive in order to say that look
Speaker A
was this forbidden by God or was this forbidden because of tradition. So basically what's saying that there has been some kind of distortion that has been made. Jesus came to affirm what is right and clarify what is wrong. So when you
Speaker A
see that Jesus had that function with the Israelites, it's fair to say that the prophet Muhammad had that same and this is the whole concept of prophets coming. If everybody has the truth and everything's fine, you don't need new
Speaker A
prophets. The whole concept of God sending new prophets is that yes, some of the truth may have come across. But you guys are messing around too much.
Speaker A
And this is a beautiful consistency that we see. But go ahead. Okay. Now coming back to your issue. If I take the interpretation, it's tradition. That still doesn't mean this the [clears throat] text is corrupt.
Speaker A
Tradition is one thing. The text is another. So I'm going with your interpretation. No, that's not my inter my interpretation. My interpretation is that there there's range of meaning here. That they could have I'm going to take all of it.
Speaker A
Perfect. because they could have definitely messed with the text. Definitely. Okay. What number one? Yes, we go with what you said.
Speaker A
Sure. If it's making lawful what their tradition made unlawful, that has nothing to do with the text.
Speaker A
But if it's making lawful what Allah made unlawful, that doesn't mean No, no, no. Say the second. That's what you said.
Speaker A
The second the second one would be it's making lawful what they have made made what they messed up with the text. But you said I'm going I'm listening very carefully. You said maybe I'm not.
Speaker A
Sorry. You said it's passive. It can mean what Allah made unlawful or tradition. That's what you said.
Speaker A
Sorry, I think you might have missed me. It could be that Jesus is clarifying their tradition, like what they just passed on, like their ideas about the text or what they messed with the text.
Speaker A
Yeah, but it doesn't say mess with the text. That's my point. But I'm going to make the my point for you. Just like when the Quran abregates the Quran, it doesn't mean the text is corrupted.
Speaker A
Right. I understand that's one interpretation. Yeah, but that's not only my interpretation. [laughter] What I'm trying to get at I know you're trying to press us. what I'm trying to get at even if you go outside my commentator
Speaker A
whatever you're saying you go read the commentaries don't take my word for it they say he was sent what the legislation to free his people from the things that Allah and the Torah made haram or their traditions but none of them said that's
Speaker A
because the text was corrupted so let me I guess we'll we'll come full circle thank you for your point but what I'm saying is that alhamdulillah what since we see that in the Quran Allah t does make and I'm going go back to this
Speaker A
original point that I should have stuck with and I did stick with it to a certain degree that there are uh conscious edits being made we can't address where time is up so but there are conscious edits being made so
Speaker A
it's very reasonable to see that when the Jews for example they say the hand of Moses it came out lepous and then the Quran specifically says that his hand came out white shining and not lepous clearly this is saying what that there
Speaker A
was somebody messing with the text so now we understand that from now if we say okay well if that's true then yeah 279 all the scholars that affirm my perspective they're justified and when we're looking at what was it the 350
Speaker A
it's very fair to say that yes if uh uh uh Jews earlier had messed with their text and Jesus is clarifying it could be just their interpretation or it could be the words themselves both are valid hope that's clear
Speaker A
what do you want me to do because the time is up close you want me to say something all right yeah because you brought up conscious edits again this is again why we talk past each other because you're assuming that if
Speaker A
the Quran says something different from what's in the Torah that it's [clears throat] editing it as opposed to what we're trying to get at. I know you believe he's a prophet, but since we don't accept him as a
Speaker A
prophet, when we see this these mistakes, then we are saying that's all the more reason why we don't follow him because he's confirming the scriptures, not doing conscious edits because he never says I'm correcting the scriptures because you see contradictions. You're
Speaker A
thinking the problems with the Bible. were saying, "No, that's exactly the dilemma, the problems with the Quran.
Speaker A
That's why we can't follow him." Perfect. And the problem with that is that the issue the issue the issue with that is that you're now assuming you're imposing on the text. Okay? That so it agrees with everything in the Bible.
Speaker A
And you're like, "What about here where it doesn't?" Oh, that was a mistake. He meant to agree with the Bible, but he actually said the words this hand is they said lepous. It's actually white shining and not lepous. Oh, that was a
Speaker A
mistake. No, it's a conscious edit. So for you to say, well, he's agreeing with the whole Bible and when he consciously changes it, that's his mistake. Like, do you see how like this is getting there's only a problem with that
Speaker A
assumption that we're saying conscious said it? I know we're gonna go over there. Number one, apart from the Hebrew scriptures, how do you know anything about Moses?
Speaker A
Well, do you want because we're going back to because not only prior to because prior to Muhammad, all the prophets that the Quran mentions were confirming that Torah that had that story, even Jesus. So if you're saying this is a conscience edit, that means
Speaker A
according to you, if I follow your logic, God allowed all the prophets and Jesus to confirm his hand was lepous knowing it's a mistake didn't correct them or tell them to correct it until Muhammad came. That's your dilemma.
Speaker A
No, I would say to respect that that Jesus at the end of uh what's it called?
Speaker A
The end of John even. Oh, even John? Yeah, even at the end of John.
Speaker A
But I thought it's a biography. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. Even thought it's a biography. Listen, not every time I quote something means that's my whole belief system. That's what I'm saying according to you and at the end of John it says that he
Speaker A
had done so many things if we were to fill up all the what he did it would fill up the whole world right so from this perspective is it possible that there were instances where he made corrections and explanations and things
Speaker A
like this so this is my point that but no I can't tell you why because the same John John 5:45-47 John 5:39-4 he says you diligently study scriptures thinking by them you have eternal life but these are the scriptures that bear
Speaker A
witness of me but you refuse to come to me that I may give you life do not think I'll accuse you before the father.
Speaker A
There's one who's your accuser, Moses. Because if you believe Moses, you'd believe me because he wrote about me.
Speaker A
Nothing about corruption.
Topics:Islamic dilemmaQuran and BibleSam ShamounChristian-Muslim debateQuranic interpretationBible authenticitySurah Maidatwo sons of Adamreligious dialogueevangelism
