Speaker A
Jesus never lived. Jesus is a mythological figure. No. There's over 25,000 manuscripts. Revelation 22:13. Jesus identifies himself as, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
A heated debate where a Muslim woman challenges Christian women on the evidences and claims of Islam and Christianity.
Key Takeaways
- Both Islam and Christianity have passionate defenders citing scripture and historical evidence.
- The authenticity and interpretation of religious texts remain central to interfaith debates.
- Historical and scientific evidence is used by both sides to support their religious claims.
- The debate reveals challenges in reconciling differing religious worldviews in a single discussion.
- Personal and emotional elements often influence the tone and direction of religious debates.
What the video covers
- The video features a debate between one Muslim woman and ten Christian women discussing the validity of Islam versus Christianity.
- Key topics include the historicity of Jesus, manuscript evidence, and theological claims about Jesus' divinity.
- The Muslim participant argues Islam has stronger evidence due to its preservation and historical context.
- Christian participants defend the New Testament manuscripts and Jesus’ identity as God.
- Discussions include Quranic authenticity, historical evidence of Mecca, and interpretations of scripture.
- The debate includes personal attacks and heated exchanges, reflecting strong religious convictions.
- Scientific and historical claims such as evolution, genetic testing, and archaeological evidence are debated.
- The video also touches on social and cultural issues, including gender identity and societal acceptance.
- The conversation references specific biblical and Quranic verses to support arguments.
- The debate format includes interruptions, mic issues, and informal banter among participants.
Chapters
- 00:00 Introduction & Jesus Historicity Debate
- 11:47 Mic Issues & Debate Setup
- 24:45 Discussion on Mecca & Historical Evidence
- 37:51 Jesus’ Divinity and Biblical Claims
- 49:02 Islamic Conquests & Quran Preservation
- 59:17 Interpersonal Exchanges & Debate Dynamics
- 68:51 Scientific Evidence & Genetic Testing
- 76:16 Closing Arguments & Summary
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
You're describing yourself in the form of a woman irregarding the weight. Like the gospel of Thomas. Why isn't that in there? Because it was written after Thomas was dead.
Speaker A
You're describing yourself in the form of a woman, disregarding the weight. Like the Gospel of Thomas. Why isn't that in there? Because it was written after Thomas was dead.
Speaker A
you're going to get humiliated even more just like your prophet did. I'm going to humiliate your religion. I'm going humiliate your God and your prophet right now again. So, let's continue to talk.
Speaker A
He doesn't. It's going to be AI robots with no conscience that will gun these people down like pigs. But being an adult means paying for your kids. Even if you don't have sole custody, even if you don't have partial custody,
Speaker A
If that's hair, what's this? Uglier hair. No, it's not ugly hair. What you have is probably the same thing a dog.
Speaker A
you're going to get humiliated even more just like your prophet did. I'm going to humiliate your religion. I'm going to humiliate your God and your prophet right now again. So, let's continue to talk.
Speaker A
You be willing to spend $50,000 that there's some scientists that said human beings went one step. It was fish and then gave birth to homo sapiens. That is what with genetic testing we could see like the whole family tree of all life on
Speaker A
Look, you were born a man. Yes. Do you know how much money I had to spend to look like this to be accepted by society? Over 100 grand.
Speaker A
Jesus white cuz y'all would never serve a black king. Yeah, but dogs can do that. Dogs make civilizations.
Speaker A
If that's hair, what's this? Uglier hair. No, it's not ugly hair. What you have is probably the same thing a dog.
Speaker A
to be the first and the last. their hospitals, their schools, their moss, their churches, the graveyards, their roads. Some of them have been hit during the route to those. You almost made yourself a laughing stock in front of everybody.
Speaker A
Because you, I struggle to see how you can't accept that Joseph Smith is a true prophet.
Speaker A
Stop the personal attacks. Don't ask me about why I don't have kids. Look at you, you savage man. Skinny arms, out of safety. Yeah, you are.
Speaker A
You'd be willing to spend $50,000. There are some scientists that said human beings went one step. It was fish and then gave birth to Homo sapiens. That is what, with genetic testing, we could see like the whole family tree of all life on
Speaker A
sitting there talking to him. I'm spinning around. That has nothing to do with the topic. It It has everything to do with the topic.
Speaker A
earth can be traced through genetic testing. You cannot follow the Quran in and of itself, by itself. For example, there's more proof on the existence of Jesus than there is proof on the history of Julius Caesar. The reason why you made
Speaker A
Uh oh. Five seconds. All right, welcome. Wait. All right, welcome in everybody. Thank you for joining us today on another exciting episode of Digital Social with Sean Kelly. I'm not Sean Kelly. I'm Justin Admiral Gibbs. We have an exciting one
Speaker A
Jesus white is because y'all would never serve a black king. Yeah, but dogs can do that. Dogs make civilizations.
Speaker A
Looks like number three. Yes. Um, so my first topic is Islam has more evidence of being true than Christianity.
Speaker A
Well, they give birth, too. Like, it's not that big of a deal. Jesus died. If he died in a real and not idiosyncratic way, therefore Jesus is not God because God. So, Jesus here, as you just admitted, unqualified, claims
Speaker A
you like taking us away? Sure. I'd love that. Um, I found this prompt the most interesting because for me, theoretically speaking, if Islam were true, this should be a slam dunk because it came 600 years after Christ because um they had more modern things
Speaker A
to be the first and the last. Their hospitals, their schools, their mosques, their churches, the graveyards, their roads. Some of them have been hit during the route to those. You almost made yourself a laughing stock in front of everybody.
Speaker A
told and trained that you know there's only one Quran never been changed and yet the evidence shows contrary to that there's over 30 crrons there's um even in the most historic crrons there's six of them um there's over 5,000
Speaker A
At first, hold on just one second. At first, your criteria was a commandment that you don't think is good or godlike. But then, is it possible that God is okay with you marrying, let's say, a three-year-old?
Speaker A
to jump on and say, well, that's our evidence, too. But I feel like it's kind of selective. It reminds me of a childhood's theory where like your toys are mine and my toys are mine, if that makes sense. Because it's like I want to
Speaker A
Stop the personal attacks. Don't ask me about why I don't have kids. Look at you, you savage man. Skinny arms, out of safety. Yeah, you are.
Speaker A
And for me, I always give the analogy, if I were making a batch of cookies and I put all the good ingredients in, the eggs, the milk, the sugar, the all the ingredients, I mix it up, but I put even
Speaker A
People of the Bible that you have conceded and inquired actually said, "Yes, we saw the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam." I can outtell you. I can out you. This guy needs... But do you realize I'm not ducking? I'm
Speaker A
feel like when you look at the even the history of Mecca and what the Quran claims about Mecca, there's no archaeological evidence to support that.
Speaker A
sitting there talking to him. I'm spinning around. That has nothing to do with the topic. It has everything to do with the topic.
Speaker A
gone up there, there's never been any of the prophets that have ever been discovered or uncovered. So when you're looking at all the different evidence, even coinage, even when you look at the trade routes, there's no historical maps that back up
Speaker A
You just lied. You said they're on a landline. The astronauts weren't on the left.
Speaker A
I'm sorry that was a lot of information. Good. Okay. Uh well, you did see Sorry, just riding the mic. I know.
Speaker A
Uh oh. Five seconds. All right, welcome. Wait. All right, welcome in everybody. Thank you for joining us today on another exciting episode of Digital Social with Sean Kelly. I'm not Sean Kelly. I'm Justin Admiral Gibbs. We have an exciting one:
Speaker A
Yeah, I think I think so. Say something. Test it. Uh testing. One, two, three. Can you turn her gate up?
Speaker A
Islam woman versus 10 Christian women debate today. I'm pretty excited about it. Uh, I believe, uh, we have our first topic here. We have this. Tina, you want to go ahead and read us off that topic?
Speaker A
It's okay. We'll just get me angry then. All right. Well, somebody get the walnuts. No, I'm just kidding. Go ahead.
Speaker A
Looks like number three. Yes. Um, so my first topic is Islam has more evidence of being true than Christianity.
Speaker A
Yeah. Thank you. So sorry. Appreciate it. We're very needy people. Yes, that too. I think has the label.
Speaker A
All right. And just remember to talk in the mic. All right. In case y'all didn't hear that, just because we were getting the mic issue figured out, Islam has more evidence of being true than Christianity. All right. Melissa, would
Speaker A
No, you're good. All right. Sorry. So, you said a couple things that I wanted to ask about. You said that um that the Quran would have modern preservation techniques to preserve it. What do you mean by that?
Speaker A
you like taking us away? Sure. I'd love that. Um, I found this prompt the most interesting because for me, theoretically speaking, if Islam were true, this should be a slam dunk because it came 600 years after Christ because, um, they had more modern things
Speaker A
What do you mean is a conquering society? um Musl um Islam like for instance if you look at the um Israelites a lot of times they were fleeing because of the consequences of their actions when they were in exile
Speaker A
to record the Quran, all the different things. So, if Islam were true, the evidence should be literally overwhelming. And yet, I believe we see the opposite of that. I think a lot of Muslims believe the given narrative that they've been
Speaker A
much sooner than I guess Christianity but no they were they were persecuted and made there wasn't any persecution But there wasn't like going in and burning down the temples or that type of stuff that happened with Judaism. Let's
Speaker A
told and trained that, you know, there's only one Quran, never been changed, and yet the evidence shows contrary to that. There's over 30 versions, there's, um, even in the most historic versions, there's six of them, um, there's over 5,000
Speaker A
Um where does it make sense? Like there's certain um as opposed to what? Yeah. Like what is I guess what she's asking is what is the metric as like comparison to to like what is the what is the alternative? like papyrus and
Speaker A
copyist errors, which, you know, oftentimes Christians get criticized for that, our Bible isn't accurate or whatever. Um, when you look at the archaeological evidence, it's overwhelming there as well, too, to back up the Bible. And I think sometimes the Muslims would like
Speaker A
even just the six most historic crrons that when the um people who assess that type of stuff the archaeological they went in and they looked at the evidence for that um they are dated much later than what the Muslims claim and
Speaker A
to jump on and say, well, that's our evidence, too. But I feel like it's kind of selective. It reminds me of a childhood's theory where like your toys are mine and my toys are mine, if that makes sense. Because it's like I want to
Speaker A
the um the crrons that are the the six the one in France the one in I mean I I have I'm sorry I'm not good at necessarily memorizing we have the Birmingham and uh oh you go ahead yes ma'am
Speaker A
reject the Bible, the Quran, I mean the Bible, the history, the Torah, the angel, when it doesn't benefit me. But I want to embrace it when it does benefit me.
Speaker A
you're not done you no no that I wanted to see what she say about that. Yeah, no worries. Um, yeah, I I think that's part of the struggle is um I think there's a narrative and it it's not just with Islam. I feel like
Speaker A
And for me, I always give the analogy, if I were making a batch of cookies and I put all the good ingredients in, the eggs, the milk, the sugar, all the ingredients, I mix it up, but I put even
Speaker A
familiar with Jay Smith and dismantling Islam and um that he he's done a lot of history works. He was born in a Muslim country and has spent many years um researching and and coming up with this information and uh there's a lot of
Speaker A
a pinch of poison in, I don't want any of those cookies because if it's been, um, corrupted, I'm not trusting any of it because how do I know what's been corrupted then and what hasn't? Um, so yeah, I guess that's where I'd go. I
Speaker A
assess the text and it came back that they were dated much later. That I would have to Google that right now and look at the the the people that actually went through with that. But I mean I guess if
Speaker A
feel like when you look at even the history of Mecca and what the Quran claims about Mecca, there's no archaeological evidence to support that.
Speaker A
get to all the information. Okay. Well, yeah. So, just to be clear, right, we have um like multiple manuscripts, right? We have like 95% or 97% um uh complete Qurans from the seventh century.
Speaker A
Even the skyscrapers that are being built, but according to the Quran, there are supposed to be like how many prophets that were buried there, they're in a kneeling position and yet with all the giant scrap skyscrapers that have
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Secular. Oh, here. Let's Do you mind if I look up the same evidence?
Speaker A
gone up there, there's never been any of the prophets that have ever been discovered or uncovered. So when you're looking at all the different evidence, even coinage, even when you look at the trade routes, there's no historical maps that back up
Speaker A
memberships, we will shout you out as well. I'm sorry. Say that again. My paperwork over there.
Speaker A
that Mecca was this booming city that the Quran claims prior to after Christ died.
Speaker A
um get them read out, you know, between debaters or whenever there's a little uh and and all that good jazz. We thank you so much for being a part of the show.
Speaker A
I'm sorry, that was a lot of information. Good. Okay. Uh, well, you did see... Sorry, just riding the mic. I know.
Speaker A
Um Hassuni and Sayiana. Um would you mind grabbing me? There's a box inside my backpack over there of note cards.
Speaker A
Sure. You can turn it maybe a little more towards you, I guess. Is that better?
Speaker A
And he goes through right. What are the corrections? I'm confused because these all date back right the sav the Birmingham they all date back to the seventh century. So what are the con uh but but when they when and actually
Speaker A
Yeah, I think, I think so. Say something. Test it. Uh, testing. One, two, three. Can you turn her gate up?
Speaker A
Okay, for instance, um the Taki, the one in Turkey seems to be the most complete manuscript. Um but it was dated between the mid 8th and the 9th century is when it was actually compiled and it it tends
Speaker A
I got you. Thank you. Sorry. You're just soft spoken. That's okay. We'll get through this. Go ahead.
Speaker A
specifics, but anyways, even with that, there's over 2,400 manuscript errors. Um, the same things that uh people would say isn't, you know, yeah, so that's that's incorrect. So, if you go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker A
It's okay. We'll just get me angry then. All right. Well, somebody get the walnuts. No, I'm just kidding. Go ahead.
Speaker A
and that's just because there's it's 90% um uh uh intact right so the the differences are um just not there that's it right but there's no there's no like is that the one in Yemen there's There's no missing verses, like there's no like
Speaker A
B. Go ahead. Bottles. Oh, yeah. If you could take those bottles. Just if you... The bottles.
Speaker A
Sure. Absolutely. I mean because I feel like you might be confusing something, right? Like I'm not. But I mean like when you look at the history, let me look I'm so sorry. I should have had this organized more. And when you're talking about that
Speaker A
Yeah. Thank you. So sorry. Appreciate it. We're very needy people. Yes, that too. I think has the label.
Speaker A
And then there's Birmingham, right? that is the earliest um based but even with that they they think it was around 705 was the first part but when you compare the second part was uh seems to be written about 70 years after and there's
Speaker A
Yeah, the labels. Go ahead now. Now, go ahead, ma'am. Thank you. So sorry about that.
Speaker A
um uh he uh had seven auf right So there's seven recitations of the Quran, right? Um and it was, you know, standardized, right, without the markings, right? So that all seven are within that same Quran.
Speaker A
No, you're good. All right. Sorry. So, you said a couple things that I wanted to ask about. You said that, um, that the Quran would have modern preservation techniques to preserve it. What do you mean by that?
Speaker A
Nobody would say a scribal error is a error in the Bible. No, the Bible's a completely different story. The Bible has verses that don't show up until the fifth century AD. The Bible uh has uh missing information.
Speaker A
Well, I'm just saying that as opposed to, there's a couple different things with that. First of all, most people know that the original Muslims, Islam was a conquering society. So, there were less people coming in and destroying.
Speaker A
people that compiled couldn't even have really known Muhammad and and and they lived in different areas. Um so so I I'm okay. So the Quran was compiled so right like manuscripts um were compiled one year after the death of the prophet. Yeah. By
Speaker A
What do you mean is a conquering society? Um, Muslim, um, Islam, like for instance, if you look at the, um, Israelites, a lot of times they were fleeing because of the consequences of their actions when they were in exile,
Speaker A
Yeah. Yes. I mean, this is historical. Well, I mean, once again, I I I I would agree with you.
Speaker A
when they were having to flee to different places. Um, that has not been the case for Muslims. Like they were more of a conquering nation. They went out and they conquered the nations around them. I mean, they've had victory, uh, you know,
Speaker A
loving kind way. I'm sorry. Sorry. Uh what just happened? Um what did we just push here?
Speaker A
much sooner than I guess Christianity, but no, they were the
Speaker A
We apologize for that inconvenience. No worries. No worries. Thank you. All right. Paul said, go ahead. you said, I believe you were at uh most uh Islamic individuals don't Well, I I I think they took the narrative and they just
Speaker A
whatever's been taught to them, they be like, "Well, this is the the the this is what we've been told rather than actually looking at the archaeological historical evidence." Um for instance, Albukari, he died in 87 870 AD.
Speaker A
What does he have to do with the Quran? Didn't you say he was the one that helped compile? No. Okay. Well, with these things like a lot of the ones that are um Well, let me ask this. Who helped
Speaker A
compile it then? Yeah. Yeah. So, the Sahav, which are the manuscripts, um that was like a u master copy that was compiled by Ebubakar, which was the companion of the prophet one year after his death. Right. Yes.
Speaker A
And then, right, and by the way, the uh the method of preservation is through uh memorization. Right. So the companions, the followers, they they all memorized it. However, they did also preserve it textually. So one year they after the
Speaker A
prophet, by the way, everyone had their own personal copies, but one year after the prophet, uh Abu Bakr, his closest companion, um had uh you know, a master copy, right, that he gave uh then to Omar and then from Omar to uh Hapsa, his
Speaker A
daughter. Um so so yes, we had that and then about 13 years, right, roughly. Um then it was uh Omen who also standardized it uh to have one standard um so that nobody fights over the dialectical issues or um anything in the
Speaker A
future, right? It was a method of preservation. So So I'm like what's your evidence against that?
Speaker A
Well, I mean once again I believe that that's what you've been taught. No, it's not just what we've been taught. It's it's but where are like let go and then I'll go to you.
Speaker A
Yeah. So it's not just what we've been taught, right? This is uh secular scholarship as well. Yet I mean the manuscripts have been dated.
Speaker A
Well, I mean I yet again they're not dated by Muslims, right? They're dated by secular universities like Oxford and Birmingham. Like um I don't know how you would be denying that.
Speaker A
Well, I deny it by a lot of like I said when you look at the evidence of when these places actually came into existence.
Speaker A
That's what I that's what I want to see this evidence. Yeah. Look at that. Well, and that's what I'm trying to present and I'm trying not to, but there's so much I want to cover really quick. Let me go to even
Speaker A
let's start with your strongest piece of evidence. Start with that. What do you think is the strongest piece of evidence to be dispute what her claims are?
Speaker A
That's the secular universities have tested it. Well, that's not a reliable one. I mean, like I said, there there's the fact that when people have actually looked at the manuscripts, there is no manuscripts that actually fall in within
Speaker A
the time period and and it wasn't until they were actually compiled together. Let me ask just just for clarification because I know the chat's going to ask who are these people that you're describing that looked at these these things like so when we
Speaker A
usually do for instance like I said the guy that Dan broker yes he he was one of the ones that compiled all the information and the evidence but I really want to touch on this before I forget about it the
Speaker A
memorization um Muslims love disabled but it was memorized as if that was a new concept I mean Christians memorize our text all the time too and as well is if if you're familiar with Judaism at all, part of the right of passage is
Speaker A
memorizing the Torah. I mean, they they do like a mitzvah for kids all the time.
Speaker A
And yeah, it's for passages. It's not the entire Torah. Well, no, the Torah it is. You're right.
Speaker A
It's not the entire Old Testament. It is the Torah, which is usually compiled of the the the first five books. and and you would have to really consider and I feel like a lot of people don't what would it take
Speaker A
to to corrupt all these things when not just the memorization of um their text but also their celebrations I mean even just the fact of wait I don't know how how we move to the preservation of the Torah or the
Speaker A
corruption of the Torah I well we're talking about the the whole thing but we're talking about the fact that one of the things that Muslims will say is the reason why ours is the is because there were so many people and
Speaker A
everyone's memorized it. Um, but yet that is also true. There's also the history and the preservation which you still haven't really showed.
Speaker A
There's been active memorization with Christians and Jews and where where what kind of Christian history do you have of memorizing the the Bible? I mean, even when I I look at the the just today when I talk to the
Speaker A
majority of the mus Muslims that I've talked to and the majority of the Christians I've talked to that are genuinely actively practicing Christianity have memorized lots of the scriptures. Whereas um most of the Muslims that I've talked to, in fact I
Speaker A
had a Muslim family living with me for almost an entire year and most of them had no clue what the Quran said. Even if they had it memorized, they didn't Can I let me ask this? I'm maybe I'm
Speaker A
just a little bit confused. I I do a lot of these debates and I'm just can how does the memorization uh or not memorization prove the histo of of or not histo preserved because they memorized the Quran up until the part the time it was
Speaker A
compiled into one book. The problem yet again is when we look at the original documents and how much of those documents how much of it is actually there. There's only one like I said the the one that I mentioned first has the
Speaker A
most that is still there still intact where when we look at the the one furthest back and when we looked at the number of errors in the the um the cross can you give me an error please?
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. I think what's happening right now is I know you're first you're a little maybe a little little nervous.
Speaker A
You have clearly you're very prepared. If we like maybe we narrow it down to focus it and might be able to help you out here because I feel like you're making a lot of claims with like a little bit of this, a little bit of that
Speaker A
and like you know what you're talking about but I I think I know the audience and I are a little bit confused on as like lay people like what spec like give me like a claim narrow down and give me
Speaker A
the evidence on that one. Let's just narrow it down a little bit if possible.
Speaker A
I mean yeah. Does that make sense what I'm asking you? Yeah. Because you're kind of like hitting like 15. you kind of like spray and prey right now. Like you're hitting like 15 things and then you're saying a
Speaker A
bit about each one. So if you could like narrow down to one real quick just so we can expand from there. Is that is that something we could do?
Speaker A
If I was going to stick with some of the most powerful evidence, I wouldn't necessarily go with the Quran. I would even go with Mecca and what the Quran claims and the that it was this um where Abraham was. And yet when we
Speaker A
look at even historical maps, Mecca isn't found on any of the historical maps found before Christ came to earth.
Speaker A
And yet according to the Quran, yeah. So the the Quran calls it Becca, right? So it was called Becca. And even in the scripture, your scripture is called Becca, but it's once again it's not found on the historical maps.
Speaker A
Becca is not found on the historical map. No. Okay. So, so, so the city in the Bible is not found in the historical maps.
Speaker A
Well, they talk about I mean most of them they talk about it being um where the Kaba is. Correct.
Speaker A
Where what in Mecca? What the maps? No. Where um where they they said that um isn't that what the narrative? Maybe I'm I'm reading into what you believe, but isn't that where um Muhammad says that uh Ishmael and that's
Speaker A
where um Haggar and that all happened was in Mecca. Is that not the narrative that Yeah. Yeah. It was called Becca at that time.
Speaker A
But Mecca is not where like Israel is. No. So there I mean they're they're far apart. Let let me find my map.
Speaker A
Yes. So yeah, Becca's not where uh Palestine is. Yeah. Um it's where Mecca is.
Speaker A
So, um I just did a quick source and uh it does seem to confirm what you were just saying about uh it just being under a different name. Uh it seems like it's been called several different names throughout history. Under tool, it looks
Speaker A
like it was called Macroaba. Um they there's explicit uses of Mecca as of like the seventh century but all other references to other different names in the same location uh from the seventh century maps. There's archaeological evidence stating as
Speaker A
there's been longtime city there nonro Muslim and Roman Byzantine sources describe western Arabia in detail not mentioning a significant trading site.
Speaker A
However, uh there is location there is supporting trading sites on the Silk Road in other areas in that region um that could be under different name. So it looks like there's evidence that there was some sort of building there or
Speaker A
location. Uh sorry when you look at where Mecca is today when we ask the surrounding like if you look at the surrounding civilizations and all this evidence once again was compiled by um are you familiar with the Jewish
Speaker A
tradition? Yes. Okay. Are you aware that Jewish tradition also holds that Abraham went to Mecca?
Speaker A
um which is why the Jews uh migrated to Yreb modern day Medina. Why um when um when you compare the the dates of what the Jews believe in and I'm so sorry.
Speaker A
Also, I'm going to give you about three more minutes, then we're going to go to closings. And then when we do closings, try not to interrupt each other on closings because it's usually a time thing. I just want y'all to get through
Speaker A
them. and then I'll let them close first, then you can close after you have a closing thought after.
Speaker A
Um, Mecca, I mean, from my understanding, they believe it's the center of the Islam, the center of history. Uh, they they if I'm not mistaken, you guys believe the first sanctuary appointed for mankind was at the Acra. Is that right? And and the uh
Speaker A
it is said in Surah 692 that it's the mother of all settlements. It's also said that in 42:7 um Mecca is where Adam and Eve were cast down according to Surah 7:24. Um it doesn't I'm sorry.
Speaker A
No, that's not necessarily true. Um I mean, yeah, that could be tradition, but that's not what the Quran says. No.
Speaker A
Well, I mean, so Adam So yes, Adam set the foundations of the Cabba at that location, right?
Speaker A
But that they were cast down there. No, that's not what it says. Okay. But but even still when we look at there like when you look at Mecca um there's no archaeological evidence. Like I said even when they're building the
Speaker A
buildings and they're digging down deep they're not finding the prophets that supposedly should be praying you know were buried praying on their knees so they could be there's no point. There is no even when you go what prophets were buried on their
Speaker A
knees. I I don't know what that means. I mean um um so would you say that?
Speaker A
Yeah. What what is the relevance of the non the knees thing? You made that point earlier. Do you have um yeah I mean according to like I said with with if I'm not mistaken Islams believe that a lot of the
Speaker A
prophets were buried on the holy land of Mecca. No that's not. No, that's not historically what was taught.
Speaker A
Nope. The references to Mecca in 9th and 10th century is Lakm traditions um the ba valley of uh parallel valley um I mean in Albuari um 2685 it it talks about you know how it gives a lot of descriptions of what Mecca was
Speaker A
like and yet the evidence doesn't support that. Um, it says that like what though because we don't have a concept that prophets were buried underneath the Cabba. I don't know where you go.
Speaker A
Well, we can go back to that. I mean even like with with the descriptions of what it's what um the prophets originally said like like what um like I said if we go back to um it it it claims that Mecca was in a valley a
Speaker A
parallel valley in Iben Hisham Albukardi 2 645 and 2685 to 891 to 8:15 and in 2820 and in 4227.
Speaker A
Um, it also talks about the Sappa and Ma had shrines to idols on top of them before Islam by Eban Hisham and on page 30. Um, so Safa and Mara are the two mountains that Hagar went through, right? This is
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also biblical. That's in also in in your scripture as well. When it comes to idols and shrines, I don't know if if you're talking about when the pagans took over it. Is that is that what you're referring to?
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I I'm talking about the the the different claims that the um Quran claims like that it was lush vegetation and all the different things that it had trees grass fruit clay lom.
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It did. Well, wait. So, yeah. So, are you aware that Mecca is like in the middle of the desert?
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No, that's what I mean. That's why when it's making these claims, right? And you know, even to this day that Mecca is inhabitable, right?
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Whereas there's only a few places in the desert that are actually inhab inhabitable where you can actually stay and not be a bedawin and you know keep moving. You can actually build a home and live because of right
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the waters and the vegetations. But that's my point is that it claims to be like that it was according to the text and everything else that it was a major um trade route and yet we don't where it's located there wasn't natural water
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which we know that There was and it's historical and there there still is which is why Mecca is still inhabitable.
Speaker A
Well, I mean if you're talk are you talking about the Tsum Tsum well? Yeah, there's that and yeah and natural springs, right? And and vegetation that grows, trees, date palms.
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Well, now that the water is being pumped in, but it's kind of like with with every other historical site. uh like for instance when they uh discovered Jericho, they were able to look and find the walls and they were
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able to even see how the walls fell out. Yes, there is dispute whether or not um you know was caused by an earthquake, which it could have been. Obviously, God could use that to knock down the walls of Jericho. But we're able to look back
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and see even like if there was all this lush vegetation back in the day, there should be archeological evidence to show that that was the type there would be uh people in the surrounding cities would be like, "Oh,
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yeah, we you know, I'm going to let you respondians." Go ahead. Oh, to respond.
Speaker A
Yeah, it was fine. Yeah. So, so there is evidence for this, right? There's uh Medina, right? The Jews of Ythreb even in their traditions um they knew this about Mecca. The Christians at that time knew this about Mecca. They wrote about the Muslims that
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lived in Mecca. Uh they wrote about the after effects and they don't even believe the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him um was a true prophet, right?
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But they still wrote about them. Um they visited the area. They documented this. This is in Christian sources as well, right? In enemy sources.
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I'm sorry. No interrupt. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Finish. No, no, that's okay. Go ahead.
Speaker A
Oh, okay. So, we're going to go to closings. Don't don't know if I'm gonna give you about a minute, two minutes to give you your closing. Kind of wrap up, summarize your thoughts and put it out there and go ahead and then you'll have
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a final thought. Go ahead. Well, I interrupted her. I No, no, no, that's okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. Go ahead.
Speaker A
Um I apologize if you weren't. No, no, it's okay. Um, like I said, when when we actually look at because not just what we've heard people say, but when we look at the actual evidence of like when we go and look at the books
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and see how much of the manuscript and and when we compare them, how much of it is the original Quran as opposed to the Quran that we have today. Um, there is lots of variances when we look at the
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historical evidence. There should be more as far even when we we compare to other religions like um Mormons for instance one of their struggles is the places that they claim to exist nobody's ever been able to find here we do know
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okay this is where Mecca is this is where the Cabba is this is all these different things and yet when we we look at the evidence around it doesn't support the societies that the the Quran and the hadith claim. That
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makes sense. All right. Thank you so much. We're going to go with um wrinkle sprinkle.
Speaker A
All right. And we're going to be switching topics here to the uh Jesus uh the number one topic.
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Sure. All right. Chat. And uh once again, if y'all want us to comment on anything, make sure you get your super chats in and we will read them and we will talk about them. We will pin them. Uh don't
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say anything derogatory though. We won't pin those and we won't read those. Uh but we do appreciate all the support and all that good jazz. All right, Miss Tina, why don't you take us away and read us that next prompt?
Speaker A
Sure. So the next prompt is that Jesus never claimed to be God. All right, man. Take us away, Twinkle.
Speaker A
All right. Hi. Hi. So I think I've heard this on this podcast multiple times, this thing that is said that when you read a book, you read it not to prove that it's wrong or not to prove that it's right. You read
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it for just what it says that it is. I come from a Hindu background. When I started reading the Bible, I just wanted to know what Christianity was. I had no will to prove that Jesus is God or not
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God. But when I read the book of John, it's so obvious to me that he claimed to be God just by the things that he said.
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A a prophet or a human being would never say that I can give eternal life and by my will you can live. And if we see in the Old Testament, I just want to mention the verses. We see in the Old
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Testament that God said for thou shalt worship no other gods for the Lord whose name who whose name is jealous and is a jealous God. God is clearly saying you cannot worship another god. In the Psalms to the same thing in Isaiah I am
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the Lord there is my there is my name and my glory I will not give to another neither my praise to graven images. Say God doesn't want to share his glory. But then and then we see in Peter like in
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Acts Peter like refuses worship. He says that don't worship me in Acts 10:2. Same thing in Acts 14:14 where Paul and Barnabas refused divine honors when the crowd were making them to be gods. We see it clearly. We see that in
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Revelation the angel says only worship God. It was in Revelation 22 verse 8 and 9 when John started worshiping the angel. The angel said worship belongs only to God. But then if we say Jesus was a prophet that you believe that he's
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a prophet and in the Bible clearly so many times let's I'll start with the book of Matthew just this is just in the book of Matthew the wise men worshiped the baby Jesus. He started early. And then Matthew chapter 8:2, the
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leper worship Jesus. And behold, it says, "And behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if thou wil, thou can make me clean." Jesus's response was rather rebuking the man.
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Jesus healed the man. G Matthew 9:18. The synagogue rulers worshiped Jesus. When he spoke these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler and worshiped him, saying, "My daughter is even now dead. But come and lay your
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hand upon her, and she shall live." Jesus's response, he didn't rebuke him again. He gave the ruler and he raises his daughter. No rebuke there. The disciples worshiped Jesus. Then they were in the ship, came worshiped him, saying, "Oh, oh, of a truth. Thou art
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the son of God." No rebuke. Jesus accepted worship over and over again. I can like there's like 20 verses that I have in Matthew.
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Okay. Yeah. So when you say that they worshiped him, what do you mean by that?
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They were like they were knel down to him and worshiped him like like you were God. Like they say the disciples said you were the son of God. The same way the worship that is happening in Revelations to the angel when he it
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stopped the angel stopped him. The same way there it's the same Greek word that is used worship for um I can look it up.
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I don't have the actual word but I I checked it's the same exact Greek word.
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So procos is the Greek word and it just means to prostrate right it is the same hold let her respond. Right. So uh this is used um even in the Septuagent the Greek word um is used for uh uh to
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prostrate towards the temple um to prostrate uh uh I forgot who was it uh Nebuchadnezzar did it to uh Daniel right Daniel didn't rebuke him because it's not actually worship it's just prostration right um uh what do you call
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it uh Jacob and um and uh the 12 or the 11 uh his 11 sons They prostrated to Joseph as well.
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They're not worshiping him, right? At least not in the way that you would worship God, right? So, so you realize that there's a difference.
Speaker A
I get your point. I get your point. And it's a good point about Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar. If Nebuchadnezzar is doing it, I guess that he's not he's not um you know, Israelite or like he doesn't worship God. But if Daniel
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didn't rebuke it, I don't know what's the Greek word. Uh I mean not the Greek, I mean the Aramaic. I think half of Daniel is in Aramaic. If I don't know what's the word used there, but in Greek
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it also if it's all if it's just the New Testament we're talking about is the same word that is used for the for the when disciples reject worship is the same word that is used when the angel rejects worship. If it just means
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to prostate like they don't have to stop it that the word the word it has three meanings like in it like the first one is worship. So if we stick if we apply the same rules that in the New Testament
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they're using the same word again and again without going in the Old Testament and we stick to the New Testament in the Greek that is what it's used for for with Peter right they didn't just prostrate to Peter right they they
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started calling him gods and they started calling him Zeus and and Hermes right so so that's what they were being rebuked for I think I believe it was Peter and Paul if I'm not so in Peter Acts 10:2
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and as Peter was coming in Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. That's the Paul one is the something else but this is the Peter story but Peter took him up saying stand up I myself also am a man. So when
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they're just kneeling down and it says they worshiped him they're stopping it like just kneeling towards something like you know God rebukes that. So but Jesus we see and when um Thomas that's like the clearest example when Thomas
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says my Lord and my God he Jesus really accepted that and he said yeah you can put your finger in my yeah yeah so it's not okay so when we look at the story of Thomas again um we
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don't see that he's actually calling Jesus my Lord and my God right I know that that's what Christians say that that's what he's doing but he's just saying my Lord and my God right the same way that anybody who sees somebody who
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ro rose from the dead would say oh my god and we we demonstrate this based on the context, right? There's nothing within that context that would make Thomas who didn't even believe Jesus was alive to make him suddenly believe that he was
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God Almighty, right? There would have been nothing to substantiate that. And again, and even if that were the case, right, this would be the only time that somebody did that. And Jesus doesn't even acknowledge it, right? He says, "Now that now you
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believe." But what does what's he talking about? He's talking about that he was alive, right? Thomas refused to believe that Jesus resurrected unless he put his fingers in his womb, right? And once he did, then then he believed, right? It wasn't that
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he didn't believe he was God or he didn't believe he was divine, right? He just believed that he was flesh and bone, right? That's that's not something that would make somebody believe that he was God.
Speaker A
Definitely. So, I've heard Muslims say this comment. Um I forget his name, Zakir, something like he's like very popular debater. Um older gentleman.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. It's not Yeah, it's not just Muslims. It's just based on the context of the verse. So if the context of the verse is Jesus responding to this as saying now that you've seen, you've believed and he's
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resurrected from the dead. Right. So what didn't he believe though 30 seconds before that?
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He didn't believe that he could raise from the dead. He didn't believe that he did.
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Yeah. Exactly. Okay. Wonder. So he It's not that he doubted that he was God. And now Jesus says, "Now you believe, right?" He just doubted that he was alive. And now he believes that he's alive because he sees
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that Jesus is flesh and bone. Right. Jesus says a a spirit or a ghost cannot be flesh and bone. Right. So that would indicate that he's not God.
Speaker A
Okay. Okay. It's okay. Let's go to another point. I I I mean this is just interpretation.
Speaker A
Some many people can interpret it one way and when one I don't want to keep going in circles on the same point but yeah I I understand your point. I understand.
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I do want to just remind you like the topic is that Jesus never claimed to be God. Right.
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when we read the gospels, right, uh based on what supposedly Jesus said, right, he was very very clear on who he was and who he wasn't, right? He was very clear that he was a man. He was very clear that he's the Messiah. He's
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very clear that he's the son of God. He's very clear that he is um a messenger sent by God. Um he's very clear that he doesn't come on his own authority, that he can do nothing on his own. Um that the words he speaks are not
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his own, etc., etc., right? But he's not clear and not nearly as explicit um by claiming that he was God.
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But he is explicit on claiming uh that somebody was God and that was the father. The father. So I want to make this clear here too when we're talking about I mean I'm sure you're familiar with it. The trinity.
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One what and three who's. We as humans don't really understand it because we are one what and one who. But when we're talking about the trinity it's one what and he who. one God and three who father, son, and the holy
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spirit. And right, but if you presuppose the trinity then then you're just going to read that presupposing it. I just want to give some verses that give you the idea that something more than here is going on then cuz I didn't
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know about the trinity at that time when I'm reading the gospels. I didn't care for it.
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But when I'm reading but if you're already going to presuppose the trinity, right? Then then you're just going to put that into the text and say, "Well, this kind of implies the trinity. this uh you know this uh is foreshadowing the
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trinity etc. Right? But I I want I want to see where Jesus makes himself.
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I get your point. I get your point that when you have an idea you want to make it true. You can if you have if a human being has an idea in their head and they want to read a text they can make
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anything come true. I I think just just to clarify for for myself and the audience you're making the argument that like say I'm going to maybe I'm going to tell myself a little bit. Southern Baptist should make like
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when Daniel, Meshach, and Abednego are in the furnace and the angel of the Lord comes down and used their one that pre pre what was the word you just said.
Speaker A
Yeah. You were basically a pre they pre-approved the trinity in their head. Oh, presuppose. Yeah.
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Yeah. Yeah. So, they're saying, "Okay, we need to look to the Old Testament and prove that Jesus and the Godhead come to Earth." So, since this is used differently, that's probably a pre uh humanation of Jesus. That was that a
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fair assessment of kind of looking for the proof and the sauce, right? So do you disagree with her statement that Christians do that?
Speaker A
Maybe some Christians do, but I don't do that. I I literally I like I said, I did not care for that. When I'm reading, but when I'm reading the book of John, I just want to give you the verse in John
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14 verse 13 and 14. Jesus says, "Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do." He even says, "If you ask me anything in my name, I will do." Here he says that I will do it. Then it says
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John 16:23 he says whatever you ask of the father in my name he will give it to you one he it's the same literal line he's saying ask in my name I will give it to you ask in my name father will
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give it to you he's changing almost father and him like interchangeably yeah but they're not interchangeable because you believe they're two distinct exact I'm not saying like oh I said almost interchangeably that's why right but they're two different contexts
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right so When Jesus says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it for you." There's no implication that he's talking about like a prayer or when he's not around, right? He's talking about he's talking about after the
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resurrection. Like he hasn't died yet, but he's saying after he's gone. Where does it where does he say after I'm gone, I will do it for you. He doesn't he's not he's of course he's saying I I will do it like later. This is not
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talking about like him him doing it right now. This is talking about after he's gone. That's clear in the context.
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It's actually not in those verses. But um but regardless I I I don't see how that's him claiming to be God. If you pray to somebody and you we presupposing that he's talking about prayer there we only pray you ask everything in my
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name asking something like you know is a prayer when you say that you ask something in my name he will do it father will do it and then saying I will do it who has the power to do anything
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after they die again in my name means like for my sake or or in my honor right so Jesus also says that if you accept a prophet in the prophet's name then you will have a prophet's reward. If you accept one of
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my disciples in the name of that disciple, right, you will get that disciple's reward, right? So doing something in the name doesn't necessarily mean that it's that they're God.
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I don't get it. The in the name of Jesus is because of the glory that the father has given him, right?
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Okay. So if if you accept a prophet in that prophet's name, does that mean that you never pray in prophet's name?
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But Jesus said if you do then you will get your reward. Jesus always said pray in my name. He said if you accept a prophet in the prophet's name in his like in if he if you accept not in Jesus's name in that prophet
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what verse is that it's in John 2 I believe but uh this this might be hold a second. So yeah, while they're doing that, once again, chat, get your super chats in and we will read them out and uh pin them
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and talk about them here. Uh Matthew, yeah, while they're Did you find it? Sorry. Matthew 10 uh Matthew 10 um 41, believe.
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So whoever receives a prophet, um let's see. The one who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward.
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Right? So the actual word here, I can show you person because he's a righteous person will receive a righteous person reward.
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I want to read the concept. Whoever receives you receives me and whoever receives me receives him who sent me. So the verse before is that that whoever if I go now I go and share the gospel with people and when I am going and people sh
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I share about Jesus if they accept me the message that I have of course they're accepting Christ because the message is about Christ. So but that's what Jesus is saying if you accept what my message like if Jesus is saying if
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you accept the message that I have the message that he has is given by the father then you means you're accepting the father and he makes that clear again and again.
Speaker A
Yeah that's yeah I don't I don't and that's the same it's just the extension of the verse the one who receives a prophet because he's a prophet will receive a prophet's reward.
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It never says receiving the prophet name. Yeah. Yeah. No here I'll show you. It's right here in the in the Greek. Just one second. Well, so while while you're doing that, the argument that you're making is it's very similar to
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interesting enough to the ones that the Mormons make, right? Where they talk about the three pens. I always say this because I'm the host of several of the religious debates. They talk about them being three distinct individuals, right?
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So if you say in the father's name, that's a that's a who, right? And so that can't be the same as another who.
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Is that similar to what you're saying? It seems like I'm I'm still one. So the Mormons make the argument there's three pins, right? And so Jesus, the father, the holy ghost, right? And so if you pray in Jesus' name, that's a who.
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That's one who. So therefore, that one who can't be the same as the other two who's. Uh that way it's like the an argument against the trinity. It seems very similar to the argument that you're making. Is that correct? Because you're
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praying in this whose name to this other power. Yeah. Right. To get to them. Does that does that does that make sense? It's is that similar?
Speaker A
Yeah. So yeah. So to pray in Jesus's name, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. That that is that doesn't necessarily mean that that person is God, right? That's um that's he's the mediator. That's fine. That's but I was talking about the way that in
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my name or in somebody's name is used. Yeah. No, no. I just want to focus on what you said that you said that you can pray in a prophet's name. I've never seen that in the Bible. If I'm missing
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that, show me. So here. So this one is whoever gives um one of my little ones, which is talking about the disciples, he calls them the little ones in the name. Right? You see what verse is this again? Let me
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uh It's the next verse over. And whoever gives And whoever gives one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he's a disciple, truly I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. Again, I don't see that he's
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saying, right? So, I have the Greek. Well, no. Yeah. So, that's how they're translating it, but I have the Greek here and the word right here.
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Which word is translating in the name? We lost a note here. Go ahead. Okay. So, do you see that where it says because he is mine? You see how it's in brackets, but the actual Greek word is in their name.
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Because he is mine. What is the English word that they're translating to this? This is in verse 42. Give one of the little ones.
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Because he is a disciple. Okay. Because he is mine. Make sure you're speaking in the mic though.
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Okay. It says because he is mine. That's what they're translating. That's how they're translating it. Look at the Greek word.
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Yeah. No, I'm going to It says in English, because he is a disciple. Truly I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. Here it says in English, because he is my name, character, fame.
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Again, he's saying because he's my name. Their name. No, yours. Okay. Right. So here, okay, the word right after it. So the Greek word is name. The word right after it is the disciple. So it's to do it in
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the name to do it in the name of that disciple. That's how that's the meaning of the Greek. It's the same way when Jesus says to do something in my name or to baptize or whatever in somebody's name. It
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that's the same but he's talking about his name. He's not talking about the disciples name. It says right there the disciple.
Speaker A
I mean I don't think we're going to get Yeah. So yeah, we're circling a little bit. Let's move on to your next point.
Speaker A
You have a you have a few minutes here. Let's move on to your next point here because we're circling a bit. I agree on that statement as well.
Speaker A
Okay. Let's talk about Okay. So I yeah I just want to go back to the topic right yeah yeah where okay Jesus himself does he claim that he is God do okay let me ask you a question well you're going to answer a question
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with a question yeah if I say I have students what am I yeah it could be many things right you yeah so if for example Jesus says he has disciples right so he's a prophet he's a teacher which by the way he makes it
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very clear he's a prophet But he makes it very clear he's a teacher. Right.
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Does Jesus say that he's a man? Yeah. Does Jesus say he's the Messiah? Yeah.
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Does Jesus say that he's the son of God? Yes. Does Jesus say that he is sent by God?
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Yes. Does Jesus say that he's God? No. He didn't say. Thank you. So you can see that Jesus doesn't say that he's God.
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Of course. I'm going to be clear on it. I I'm not insecure about it.
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No, I'm not saying you're insecure about this, but that's the whole point. So No, no, that's what I'm saying.
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when he didn't say in the beginning he he's not even claiming to be God or he's not saying anything about being God he said my time has not yet come right that he was trying to hide hide that because
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when when he he started saying that I am the son of God when he starts saying okay when he's in the when he uh he was arrested and he the the pro the the Pharisees say like who are you I adore
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you by God like who are you and he says that you're going to see the son of man sitting on on the right hand of of power right?
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No prophet would ever say he's going to sit on the right hand of God. It's so clear.
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So So you already said he doesn't claim to be God. So right now, are you are you making the argument that we should Go ahead.
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Are you just making the argument that we should just read that into it? We should I'm confused because if he's very clear about everything else, but he's not clear that he's God, right? He doesn't claim to be God. In fact, he points to
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the father as being the only true God in John 17:3, right? And many other passages, right? So, why should we force that upon it? Why should we say that he's God if he himself made it clear that the only true
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God is the father? I want to address that verse that you mentioned. He says, "You the only true God." You the only true God. The focus of that verse is only true God. That there are no other gods beside him. only you are
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the focus of the verse is not only you the true God the focus is not the person he can he did not say that I am not god in that he did not reject the you did not he said you the only true god you
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the only true god and Jesus Christ whom you sent right he doesn't say that he's saying that he's the only god he doesn't say the father father is the only god in that he does he says the father which is you
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that's who he's talking to you that's the is the only true God. And and then he doesn't just stop there, right? He mentions himself as being sent by that you.
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So Jesus Christ whom you have sent. If somebody says I only love Sarah and then somebody says only I love Sarah. There's a difference in these sentences. I only love Sarah.
Speaker A
Only I love Sarah. There's nobody else. You see the word only changes a lot. It doesn't prove that father is the only god in that. It says it says prove that no other gods. Go ahead.
Speaker A
It doesn't it proves that there are no other gods but it doesn't say that in the godhead father is the only god. It doesn't say that.
Speaker A
It literally says he's the only true god. And Christians recognize this right? Whereas even augustine even said that it uh that Jesus didn't word it correctly. Right? Jesus should have worded it in this way where the only true God is you and Jesus Christ, right?
Speaker A
Like some uh along those lines. He completely changes the way Jesus says it, right? Because this was clearly recognized to be an issue.
Speaker A
Okay. I don't really know who Augustine is. I don't really care who that is.
Speaker A
Father, let's let's go to We're about here about time. I'm going to let you give a closing and then I'm going to go to Tina here for last thought here. Go ahead Twinkle.
Speaker A
Okay. Should I go first? Yes, ma'am. Please. Okay. If I read the Bible and we can like I said we everybody who reads the Bible people inter interpret it their own way whichever they think is true but if I read the Bible and it again and
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again Jesus is making claims that he has eternal life he's going to give eternal life he makes the claim that he was with the father glorify me with the glory that I have with you before the foundation of the world and then he's
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came here as a servant When he came here as a servant, he humbled himself. That's why the father when he's resurrected granted him authority. He gave him the authority that he have before which is very clear. We see a story line that is
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happening. Oh, sorry. That's all right. Don't it happens every time. We see a story line that is happening.
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And when Peter uh after Jesus uh got resurrected and when he told Peter how he's going to die, Peter said, "What about this guy?" Like, you know, he's talking about John. And then Jesus said what it is to you if it is my will that
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he lives. Even if you read in the Quran or in the Old Testament only God has the power to give life. Who is Jesus if he's not God that he's saying what it is you that I it is my will. I can never say
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that. A prophet can never say that it is my if it's my will if he lives. It it's not a prophet's will. It's only God's will. So if we truly believe that Jesus was a prophet even either Jesus was a
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lunatic either he was God like he like somebody who can make these claims cannot be like he's not God like I I give life I give eternal life I am the bread of life that that's huge claim you
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know um and before I leave I just want I came here from India with a message and this is nothing to offend and you um or nothing I like nothing to hurt your faith or anything like that. But when I
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got the message for this podcast, Jesus gave me a message to share with you and I just want to do it without um you know hurting anything. I just have to do it as like I'm feeling very convicted to do
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it if that's okay. Just make it quick please. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I when I prayed it I got this verse of Revelation 19:20. It says the beast was captured and with it the false prophet. I just want to read
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of what I got in prayer. My child, do not allow a prophet simply because he claims to speak in my name. Do not accept a teaching merely because generations before you believed it. I have warned humanity about false
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prophets can deceive people even though extraordinary signs. Therefore, examine what you have been taught and see the truth sincerely. Do not reject Jesus Christ without ex examining his words, his works, and the testimony concerning him. Do not allow fear, tradition, and
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loyalty to religious leaders to become more important than truth. Eternal life is not merely a future promise. It is found in knowing the true God through Jesus Christ. Remain in him for he is the source of truth and life.
Speaker A
I told you to know the true God through him. Yeah. Now you can do a closing. Don't interrupt there. Go ahead, Tia.
Speaker A
Okay. Well, uh I find that um interesting. Um uh I would actually uh have you read that again and uh look at that yourself, right? Because um you know what, let's just move on from that.
Speaker A
But however, you did already concede that Jesus did not claim to be God, right? But you did say that he claimed to be many other things, right? And just and just not God, right? Uh Jesus makes it clear that the only true God is the
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father. Um uh you you made claims that uh Jesus uh said things that no prophet could say. I don't know by what standard you're saying that because um many prophets have uh have uh you know essentially given life right um in the
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case where God's will was to unal alive the Israelites it was Moses's will to uh have them spared right and God listened to Moses right um uh what do you call it uh God also he will to um get rid of
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Sodom and Gomorrah including Lot and his family. It was Abraham's will to have Lot to live and so Lot lived, right? So prophets can intercede in that sense and people can live if they uh intercede to God, right? Um so so yeah,
Speaker A
so Jesus made it very clear that he is uh sent by God. He has no authority of his own. God cannot be given authority.
Speaker A
Um God can uh and you mentioned the glory as well. the same glory that Jesus um asked for from the father. He also told the father that he gave it to the disciples. So the disciples aren't God nor are they claiming to be God either.
Speaker A
So yeah. All right. Thank you so much. Let's get uh our next stuff here. Um she was Daniel.
Speaker A
Oh yeah. Yeah. We're gonna Yeah, you're each gonna That was your first time. We're gonna be doing the same topic.
Speaker A
Yeah, that's Yeah, don't worry. We're going to read the topic before each also. But before she sits down, we're going to do some super chats. Bradley, queue them up for me, brother.
Speaker A
All right, first one. Also, guys, I have no control of super chat, so if they're mean or something, don't show them. All right. Um, don't get mad at me either.
Speaker A
Uh, Ali Tinmer, I guess it's the Ali Dmer. I don't know. Why did the for $10, thank you so much, or 10 pound, I guess. Why did the Old Testament fail to mention the triune nature of God? And why did
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the NT I guess this the New Testament failed to mention the Nian formula 325 CE for father and son 381 C for all three godheads. All right, next. Thank you for that, Miss Ali.
Speaker A
Mr. Olly, I apologize. I can't really tell what that photo is. Little scroll screen. You got another one from Mr.
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Ali, I believe, uh for 10 pounds. When Jesus fell to fully heal the go back fail heal, thank you. Fully heal the blind man in the first temp. Mark 8:22-26. couldn't perform miracles on everyone in Nazareth. Matthew 13:54 to
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58. He was acting uh qua humanity or qua divinity and quotes around those. All right. Next.
Speaker A
Are we reading fives? Yeah, let's do fives. Okay. There. This is from uh on day3.OD3 for dollar. There are survived manuscripts that predate the this preserved oothmanic codeex that differ a lot with the manic codeex that Muslims use today.
Speaker A
Lol dot dot. What else is that? It was one more probably. And yeah, we have the real McGoy for $5. She admitted the father was God.
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Question mark. Jesus wrote the words. Whoever seen me have seen the father in John 14:9.
Speaker A
All righty. Thank you so much. We appreciate those. If you want those read aloud or pen, uh, make sure they're over $5. We'll get that happen. Also, if you do a membership, we just put memberships in, I believe, on YouTube, uh, today.
Speaker A
So, uh, we appreciate those and we will shout those out as well. All right, Miss Tina, why don't you read that prompt for us again? I believe we're doing number one again.
Speaker A
Okay. Jesus never claimed to be gone. All right, take us away, Miss How do I say? Dia. All right, go ahead.
Speaker A
Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Hi, Tina. Hi. All right. Um, so, um, are you familiar with the Old Testament?
Speaker A
Okay, great. I'm curious as to who Moses is in the Quran. Do you mind uh sharing that a little bit?
Speaker A
Uh, sure. Does it have to do with the Yes, it has to do with uh Yes. So, Moses is uh a prophet and he was given a revelation called the Torah.
Speaker A
Yeah. Um Okay. He led the Israelites out of Egypt and into a uh a land of their own.
Speaker A
Got it. Okay. So, he's a prophet as well in the in the Quran in the Bible. uh he he is a prophet as well. Okay. So in the Old Testament right um gen the first book is the book of Genesis and in the
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book of Genesis uh Moses is actually accredited to be the author of the book of Genesis. So um there is um sorry in the book of Genesis I was doing the the Holy Spirit one. Um, no, no, no.
Speaker A
In the book of Genesis, right? Um, oh, I had it. He says, "I am." Jesus, Jesus says, "I am." Oh, okay. Sorry. To Moses.
Speaker A
He reveals himself as the I am. When he Moses is in front of the burning bush, right? So, that is the first time that God gives himself some type of name because previous to there was no identification, right? There was no
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image of God, anything like that. In the Old Testament, there's still no image of God until the New Testament. So now that he is I am in the New Testament, right?
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Now the claim is uh Jesus claims to be God. So in the Old Testament uh we establish that God is referred as the I am. That is the name for God. Now um in John right um Jesus states John 8:58
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before Abraham came to be I am. Okay. So right there he is uh sharing the same name as God himself, God the Father, right? And he's sharing his name, establishing his divinity as God as well. Now there's another um
Speaker A
Wait, before you move on. Yeah, go ahead. Can I please? So um you're referring to the passage in Exodus where um where God appears to Moses in the burning bush and and he says uh uh eher, I am that I am.
Speaker A
I am who I am. Yep. And then uh Moses asked, "Who should I tell the Israelites that you are?" And he says, "Tell them that I am sent me." Right? So that's the Yahweh part, right? Um now in the in the
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Hebrew, right? Um it's it's not I am that I am. Yahweh, that's not what it is because he said it's a Yahweh grammatically in the Hebrew would be something more along the lines of he is.
Speaker A
But regardless, even if it is I am, the Septuagent, right, is the Greek translation of the Old Testament. And um this is what according to scholarship and according to the authors of the New Testament they um quote Jesus using the
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septuent right they themselves use the septuagent right and we know that because it differs from the Hebrew whatever so in the Septuagent God's name is uh ego right and then when Moses asks him who should I tell uh the uh who should I
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tell the Israelites sent me it's Haun right now ha is the divine name of God right in the Greek Jesus doesn't use that name what does Haun mean ha means like uh the supreme the one right this is how the septuagent
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translates the um egoy because egoy just means I am okay great so you're saying the I forgot the I don't I'm sorry not very well versed in this but you're saying that uh can you repeat the definition please
Speaker A
yes so um it the full name in the Greek is ego which is essentially means I am the living one or I am the being I am the supreme right and that that uh I am the living or I am
Speaker A
the supreme. Right. That is the name that God established for himself. Yeah. Yes. So, but correct.
Speaker A
But when only using the I am, so like the equivalent of Yahweh, it would be Haun, right? It would just be the the divine portion of it meaning the supreme, the one.
Speaker A
Oh, okay. Interesting. So when uh when it's used as I am, so that's exactly what Jesus said though in the New Testament. Maybe not in the Old Testament, but it is established and actually uh in uh where he says in um
Speaker A
before Abraham was born I am. Yeah. So it's before Abraham was I am. So it's he doesn't say ha. That's the that's the the thing right. So John the author of uh the gospel according to you it was it's supposed to be John and uh
Speaker A
Jesus were familiar with the septuent. They knew that the name of God is ha right Jesus just says egoy. Egoy is just a reference of identity and it's something that he uses quite often.
Speaker A
I think we backtracked here but um because how I think we backtracked because I am right was I am who I am was used in the Old Testament and right but not ego. So it's ego or just but never just ego.
Speaker A
Okay. So am I not speaking right? Thank you. Okay great. Um ego. Okay, I'm going to look into this and again that's something I'm happy to learn here and I'm grateful that you're you're teaching me a few things. Um
Speaker A
because with the Aramaic and all Greek and the translations, it gets a little a little wonky. However, um in there's another though, it's not the only verse where he claims to be God, right? So, we're on the topic of that. the se the
Speaker A
other verse um in John uh 10 verse uh 29-33 he says I and the father are one literally claiming equal divinity with God the father so why do you believe that he's claiming equal divinity well how else do you explain that verse
Speaker A
let let me ask you how what is what do you interpret from I and the father are one that mean like what do you receive when you hear that yeah so based on the context right we can see that they are uh one in unity,
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right? Um one in uh like uh in mission, right? In purpose. However, even if we wanted to grant that perhaps it does mean that he's one in divinity, right?
Speaker A
Jesus himself explains it. Not not me, not you, not anyone else, right? Jesus himself explains what that means in John 17:20-23, right? when he's talking to the father and he says that um uh that the disciples um may be one in in you as you
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and I are one right and the Greek word that's used for as you and I are one means to the same level and to the same degree so in this so the same oneness that Jesus shares with the father is the
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same oneness that he is asking the uh the father to have the disciples share with them okay has any other prophet that h has any other prophet claimed I am or has any other prophet said I am I and the father are one in in the
Speaker A
Quran. Yeah. Because it means Yeah. So the way that Jesus explains it the way that you interpret it.
Speaker A
No. No. The way that Jesus interprets it. Well, I and the father are one is of course it's open to interpretation because how do you explain that? You interpret it one way and I interpret it in a completely different way. So what
Speaker A
is I'm not inter Well, I'm not interpreting it, right? Jesus is in John 17 20-23 where he says and I can I can make the same argument that Jesus is interpreting it exactly the same way. So go ahead.
Speaker A
Okay, that that would be fine. So if you're saying that Jesus is interpreting it as one in divinity, then you're saying that in John 17 20-23, then he's saying that the disciples are also one in divinity with them. What
Speaker A
what's the exact verse? John 17. Can you read that for me? Yeah. So um sure, I'll pull it up.
Speaker A
What what's the verse if you um Yeah. So John 17:20-23. Um so I mean I I have it right here. It says I am the father are one and John 10:30 is meaning disciples share the same oneness with
Speaker A
the father and son. That's what this says it interprets. Say that last part again right here. It's on the screen. John's statement John 17:20 23 uh I and the father are one in John 10:30 is meaning the disciples could share the same kind
Speaker A
of one as the father and son this is a theological inference something John 17 especially says about John 10 John 17 does not use the same Greek uh neuter word for one uh I don't know how to say
Speaker A
that in several places including disciple uh yeah the passages may described so again it's like a a interpretation thing right well well the thing is he says in the same way that you You and I are one. So
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and the Greek word meaning in the same degree. So if that oneness is divinity then he is asking for the disciples to also be one in divinity to the same degree.
Speaker A
Okay. So we are opening a different topic which I can continue to I I want to agree to disagree in the sense that you know what you're or you're saying and what I'm saying.
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However, I'm going to move on. Okay. Okay. So I'm I'm just curious what what you disagree about because I don't know if there's like a miscommunication.
Speaker A
Yeah, I'm not giving you my interpret. I'm giving you what Jesus is saying, right? So, okay.
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He's saying in the same way to the same degree of Okay, perfect. So, then we can open the conversation. That's not a problem. So, um so Jesus um when he was crucified, right, Jesus brought the Holy Spirit as
Speaker A
well. And then we get into the Trinity topic. And that's why I didn't want to touch on it because it's a different prompt, right? Um but we get into the topic of the Trinity. Um I as a Christian or any other Christian
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believer, we have access to the Holy Spirit, right? Um because that we believe that God is three persons in one. He is God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit. Now we are made in the image of God as his sons and
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daughters. We are created in the image of God. Therefore uh we have authority in Christ to his kingdom or authority in Christ um to to speak on his behalf, right? to be his vessels to share the gospel um
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with our brothers and sisters to ultimately our goal as Christians is to get to heaven right that's ultimately the goal um is it to become God though no we are different however we do share in authority because we are made in his
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image okay so are you saying that the oneness is one in authority that's that's essentially what you're saying right and um in authority however there's levels okay there's God and then we are kind of like um sons and
Speaker A
daughters There's obviously kind like you said there's Jesus. Jesus is the son. I completely agree. However, where we disagree, right, is that uh there is a holy trinity. Now to that that that's just presupposing it. But but regard you said that there's levels
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of that authority, right? So Jesus says in the same degree of in the same level that you and I are one is the same level of oneness that he asks the disciples to have with him and the father. Right? So
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okay. So it's going to be the same level, right? And I'm still going to disagree with that. I'm still going to go with the I am I am thing. I'm not and maybe because I'm not understanding but also
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you're not understanding me either. So that's what I'm saying. Then we can move on to the next point. So I understand you but Okay.
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Yeah. Well, we can move on next point. Go ahead. Okay. Great. So the next point uh is uh he accepted worship and forgave sins. So that's Mark 2 uh verse 5-12. Right. So again, how does has any other prophet
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accepted worship or forgiven sins or casted out demons or been crucified? How what other prophet has been crucified, right? For the forgiveness of sins. How does that make somebody God?
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How does it make somebody God? Uh well, he established again um he he rose 3 days later. Um any other person that you know of that rose 3 days later?
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Lazarus rose 4 days later. By who? By the father. By God the father. And who is one with God the father?
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Jesus Christ. Right. So the father also Can you repeat that again? Yeah. Yes. So the father raised Lazarus after 4 days.
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But who did it? But the father also raised Jesus who claimed it. Okay. Perfect.
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What? Who was there when Lazarus rose? Yeah. Jesus. And he gives credit to the father.
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Jesus. Okay. But exact. But you know who else? One. But so was Lazar because I can't hear you both and they all got Yeah. Lazarus's family and half of Judea also heard about this news. So they were also there. What does that what does
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that mean? Go ahead. That Jesus was the one who commanded him to rise, awake, to to walk, right? Sure.
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So Jesus said it. Okay. And the father granted that to Jesus. Now he Jesus came down as fully man.
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Jesus and his divinity is is God in the flesh according to my belief. But is it possible for the father not to have granted it?
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If it it's it's not because it was his will clearly. But but it's possible for it not to have been his will. Right.
Speaker A
Well, not we're now debating something that happened. That doesn't make sense. I'm not because Jesus goes and he thanks the father for doing so. Right. So and he says but I agree. But what you're saying can you explain that point a little bit?
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Yeah. Go ahead. What you mean by that? Yeah. So he thanks the father for for hearing his his prayer rightly so.
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Right. Amen. Okay. So there's a possibility that the father could not have risen him. So it's not Jesus actually doing the rising.
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He's doing the command but it's the father who who answered Jesus's prayer to but again he was risen according to the will of the father. He was he rose because of that.
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In the same way that the dead boy in 2 kings first or second kings was also dead. And by the will of God, Elijah was able to breathe life back into demanding that right. And now any No, it wasn't Jesus wasn't No, Jesus was
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wasn't his disciples. Go ahead. His disciples were uh somebody if I I'm not really familiar with the one you're saying.
Speaker A
It's Elijah centuries before. Got it. In the Old Testament. Okay. Gotcha. Okay. Perfect. So he also resurrected by the will of First Kings 17:17-24.
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Elisha Elisha raises the Shunomite woman's son in 2 Kings 4:18. So I guess there's two different examples.
Speaker A
Got it. So it was because of the father's will. Absolutely. Okay, great. So I guess just to clarify your point is that you're saying because it seems like an argument against the tr I'm just trying to clarify for people in chat
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myself. Seems like you're arguing that the trinity can't be a thing because Jesus had to pray to God and since God had his own individual will he could have chose not to raise this individual.
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Is that kind of right? So yeah, the topic isn't the trinity, the topic is Jesus being God.
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So So it's not Jesus doing the resurrecting on his own, right? It's the father who is God.
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It's them together. It's them together. See, and that's where we differ. It's them together.
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But just like Elijah, just like Elijah and the father, it was them together. Jesus wasn't in the Old Testament. So obviously obviously it makes sense why it was just so Elijah God because Jesus was not recognized yet. However, there's
Speaker A
so many and I can go into the Trinity. There's so many examples of Jesus being divine already. I mean, if we go to Genesis, right, it says, "Let us make a man in our image." Um, that is our is
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plural, right? So, who the heck is God talking about? Our image, if he's a one single person. And again, in Christianity, we believe it's three persons and one. Now, what I don't like is when people put limits on God. That
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is just crazy to me. The fact that they're like, "Well, it doesn't make sense in my brain." Of course not. We're human. We're so limited in what we can, you know, interpret, right? That's why we we believe in a higher power and
Speaker A
wisdom and discernment and there's all these gifts, right? But so it's so it just it's kind of offensive for sure when it's like well he can't be three persons in one. It's like oh well how what do you mean he's God? He created the
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universe. He created the he created you and I. How can he not? He's he's limitless.
Speaker A
Yeah. Go ahead and let her respond. Go ahead. Thank you. Okay. So we're not really talking about the Trinity. We're just talking about Jesus being God. That's that's one. we can get into the that is going to be a
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topic. So I would love to have that conversation. Um but just about Jesus being God. Um one even you believe that God limited himself regardless. You said that Jesus is God or at least that's your claim because um he worked with the
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father to command Lazarus to raise up. Right. But then when I said that Elijah or Elisha, right, um did the same thing that now Elisha is not God though, right? No, Elijah is not God. Only Jesus is Jesus and the father and the holy
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spirit. So again, so what's making Jesus God then because he did the same thing as Elijah?
Speaker A
Okay, so perfect. I can answer this question. He was killed for it. He was killed for saying that he was God.
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Can God die? God died and got rose again three days later. What's Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. So well according to the according to the New Testament, God cannot die. And according to the Old Testament, God, that's what he sent his
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son. And again is God. It's the nature of God. He's immortal, right? He doesn't He doesn't die.
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Hence why he rose 3 days later. But he died. He died. Mortal means he cannot die.
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God the Son died. So So God can die. God the Son. Okay. But remember, it's three people. So God the Father is still in the throne in heaven till this day listening to us right now. Right.
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So only God the Father is immortal. Well, so is Jesus. Why did he Why did he raise up again if he was? You know what I mean? Yeah, because the father raised him up just like he did with Lazarus and
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just like all the saints of the most high raised up with him and Jesus and the holy spirit work together.
Speaker A
I guess I guess I guess to what she's what she's kind of ask posing to miss uh Daniel is u I'm sure I butcher your name again I apologize is it seems like to me that she's proposing um that how how can
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you prove as a Christian this is fundamentally different than what Elisha Elijah did in the Old Testament with Jesus rising. Why isn't this say like I don't know St. Peter praying and then God granting Peter uh like bringing uh
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Jesus back. Is Is that kind of a fair assessment? Yeah. Is that that Do you understand the steel man? I'm trying to get Okay. I'm I'm beginning to apologize.
Speaker A
I'm a little slow sometimes. All right. Oh, good. I'm definitely slow with that. Okay. I'm beginning to understand. So, he needed to die and that's the difference. Okay. Jesus Christ needed to die in order to make us right with the
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father again. Jesus Christ comes and claims I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one can get to the father except through me. So what what does we have to establish Jesus is the truth.
Speaker A
There is such thing as a universal truth and that's where we differ. So it's like Jesus is the truth, right? G the truth will set you free is in the Bible. So who sets us free? Jesus. Why did he set
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us free? Because he died for our sins. So yeah, he doesn't say he doesn't say any of that. In fact, when he says that the truth will set you free, it's actually in in the context that goes against that. But
Speaker A
but that's you have to know that the truth is Christ. And and all this happens, let me let me let me just paint this point. All this happens with revelation. It It's like there's another verse that says, "My sheep hear my
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voice." Right? And it's like, "What does that mean?" Like you hear God has says that my sheep hear my voice. It means that somebody could read the Bible and not have the the the Holy Spirit giving them deeper revelation. And so you read
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it and you get nothing out of it. You you understand what I'm saying? So the Holy Spirit is the one that opens your eyes. And so therefore there is a certain um as Christians we have that ability to hear from God to hear from
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the father and through Jesus Christ and the holy spirit. Just wanted to make that point.
Speaker A
No no that's fine. So but does Jesus Okay. So you hear his voice you hear his words you okay. Does he say that he's God? Because everything that you showed me right is him pointing to the father as God even in terms of the attributes.
Speaker A
Who's immortal? Who's doing the resurrecting? Who's uh whose authority does Jesus need? Whose authority does he come in? Right? It's the father, right?
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Jesus, again, like I said before, he makes claims about who he is, right? He's not uh ambiguous about him being the Messiah. He's not ambiguous about him being sent by God. He's not ambiguous about him being a prophet or a
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teacher, etc. Right? But he seems to not point, in fact, he seems to point opposite direction of him being God.
Speaker A
Right? We're going to disagree. I don't agree with that at all. This is the argument, right? Um can let me ask you a question.
Speaker A
Can uh anyone else ask rather than God forgive sins? C um is is God the only one who can forgive sins?
Speaker A
Yeah. By the No, by the authority of God, yes, absolutely. Jesus says that the disciples will forgive sins. He says that you will also forgive sins. In fact, when Jesus is ascending, he gives them the Holy Spirit and he tells them
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verbatim that um anybody's uh sins whom you forgive, their sins will be forgiven. And anyone's sins who you decide to retain, their sins will be retained.
Speaker A
Right. So the disciples forgave sins. Absolutely. The disciples forgave sins in the name of who?
Speaker A
It doesn't say anything about in the name of. It's just uh and and again on behalf of who? Or with the authority of who?
Speaker A
The father. God. Okay. Okay. Wonder. But not Jesus, right? Because Jesus gave one. Okay. God.
Speaker A
So are the disciples. No, it's it's it's very it's very different. You just said, hold on. No. No. We're not going in circles cuz you said that nobody can forgive sins except the father.
Speaker A
I mean, I'm sorry. That nobody can forgive sins except God. I was asking a question. I was like, is it can anybody else forgive sins? I didn't say that. I said, can anybody else forgive?
Speaker A
Then the answer is yes. According to the New Testament, yes. Got it. Okay. So, in Mark uh 2:5-12, Jesus forgives a paralyzed man's sins outright, right? The scribes react with a uh who but God alone can forgive sins.
Speaker A
Um Jesus then heals a man specifically to prove he has authority on earth to forgive sins directly. Um uh so anyway that's that's something that that we agree with that the fact that um God forgives sins, Jesus forgives sins again
Speaker A
and the disciples forgive sins and the discip the disciples with uh God's authority. My question now I Jesus does it with God's authority.
Speaker A
Okay. But this they're still one. So are the disciples not in divinity. That's where they're said in the same way. So that's the for the sins. Absolutely. But what I'm saying is No, no, no. For the oneness.
Speaker A
For the oneness. For the oneness. That's where we disagree. I'm not going to agree to that.
Speaker A
But can you show me why you disagree? Because it's not you're not disagreeing with me or disagreeing with Jesus. Cuz Jesus disagreeing with Jesus. Actually, let's let's let's do this. Why don't you show me why you disagree and then we're
Speaker A
going to have to go to closing shortly. We're almost out of time. Okay. No worries. Go ahead.
Speaker A
I I I actually already said this. I said I disagree because in the Old Testament, God is uh name is I am. And No, that's a different point. We're talking about why do you disagree with Jesus when he says that the disciples
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will be one in the same degree, the same level as you and I, meaning him and the father are one.
Speaker A
Again, we're not understanding each other. The reason that I don't agree with that statement is because the interpretation is different.
Speaker A
I I didn't give you an interpretation. I I just read told you what he said. So he said that the disciple okay John 17 20-23 he says to the father he's speaking to the father that the may the
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disciples be one with us in the same way right and to the same degree that you and I are one so that oneness that he shares with the father is the same degree of oneness that the disciples two different oneness that is my point
Speaker A
okay wonderful so show me why you're saying they're two different oneness okay because as sons and daughters of Christ not just Jesus Jesus is also a son. But as sons and daughters of Christ, right, we have authority. We
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are when we're baptized, we're blessed are baptized as prophets, priests, and kings. Kings into what? The kingdom of God. So that's the authority we have in Christ. That's our oneness. But the difference is the the disciples, nobody else claimed
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to say I am, meaning I am God. Nobody else got crucified because they claimed to be God. Jesus. The reason Jesus the whole thing is you're trying to is because the reason Jesus got crucified is because he said I am God. I am one
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with the father and that is blasphemy. That is blasphemy according to the Jewish tradition right to uh all the Jewish people, the Pharisees and all that stuff. That is why um they sentenced him for blaspheming according to the that law. So
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where do you get that idea? Okay. his his uh the Bible history. I mean, there's there's so many ev there's so much evidence. Let me just say this.
Speaker A
There's so much evidence about the crucifixion. I'm not I'm not denying the crucifixion at this moment. I'm asking you, where do you get the idea that he was sentenced by a Roman pagan law that they don't care about the God of uh Israel? They
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don't care about blasphemy law. Where do you get the idea, right, that he was crucified because he claimed to be God?
Speaker A
Which by the way, that's the whole topic is I'm asking where the Bible. Okay. literally state literally the statement I am. Uh before Abraham was born, I am um Jesus was was literally killed for that. That's the No, he's not. No, he wasn't. He claimed
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first of all, okay, so in the I am I already showed you that it's not ready to stone him. He said this multiple times and they were they tried to stone him for many for many years.
Speaker A
Why were they trying to stone him? Great point. Wonderful. Okay, beautiful. So, it has to do with the context of what he's saying. So in John uh 8:24 and John 8:23 uh John 8:28 I believe he talking to the
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same group of people and he says egoy twice right he makes that statement twice and then what the verse right after it says many of them came to believe in him okay so they believed in the egoy claim okay wonderful they
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didn't try to stone him just for context yeah ego means I am right and according to Matthew and Mark in the statements that Jesus makes I am means the Messiah Right? That's why they believed in him.
Speaker A
They didn't try to stone him because they didn't think he was claiming to be God. Now, when they tried to stone him on the third time he said ego, it has to do with the context of what he's saying
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about Abraham and giving eternal life, etc. It has nothing to do with the word ego because it doesn't mean God would have meant the name of God. Egoy just means I am, right? And they know that that meant the Messiah because Jesus
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said that multiple times. So, yeah. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Were you done? I apologize.
Speaker A
Yeah, there's a lot of points, but that's okay. Yeah. Well, okay. I'm going to let you respond and then I'm going to give you a quick response to that. Then we're going to go to closing so I talk. Yeah, that
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was that was a good exchange. I didn't want to interrupt it. Go ahead. Okay. No worries. I completely lost my train thought, but it's okay. Um I know, right?
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Okay. Well, I just want to go ahead say again. Okay. So, yeah. So, they tried to unalive him for for many reasons, right?
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And um he he said that they want in that same chapter, by the way, John 8:58, right before they want they tried to stone him, he said they wanted to kill him. He said uh essentially he he acknowledges that they believe him but
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yet they want to kill him. And that's why uh they he calls them the children of Satan because they're doing their father's desire who is the devil to to want to kill him even though they believe and acknowledge that he's the
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Messiah. Meaning that they're not the children of Abraham and they're not the children of God. Uh that's what he says.
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So okay. So that was the context of why they wanted to unalive him that they wanted to stone him etc. Now, when it comes to him being crucified, right, they the the gospels themselves say that they had to lie to uh Pontius Pilate and
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uh pressure him into crucifying him by claiming that he was an enemy of Caesar.
Speaker A
That's that's insane to me. Every gospel says they wanted to lie. Yes. And they said that uh Jesus uh forbade them from paying taxes to Caesar and he's an enemy of Caesar, which Jesus did not.
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The reason he got crucified was because he was claiming to be God and the Pharisees are pissed off about it.
Speaker A
That's literally what happened. No, Pontious Pilot didn't want to kill him. He said, "I see no reason to kill him." Then they sent him, you're absolutely right.
Speaker A
Then they sent him to Hirod and Hod didn't want to kill him either. So they sent him back to Pontious. Pontious pilot still didn't want to kill him. And then they said, "Well, he forbids us from paying taxes. He forbid us."
Speaker A
What are the reasons you've mentioned when you started this first after that break? Let me ask you this before we do that.
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Do you do you dispute the series of events that you just laid out with the the the pilot, the Herod, the pilot again? Uh I disputed the fact that uh what I understood and maybe I misinterpreted that because I I needed
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to hear it uh correctly, but um that they lied about uh Jesus in order to get him crucified. And I took it as they they lied. They had to lie. Sorry, I'm trying to to understand. Jesus said, "I
Speaker A
am." And that's the reason he got crucified. However, she said that they lied and that's what threw me off. I'm like, "No, that's literally the truth. That's literally why he got crucified." So I don't understand with the lie thing.
Speaker A
That's what I don't understand. So every gospel says that they um bear bore false witness against him, right?
Speaker A
Um and then when they were standing in front of Pontius, they said that he uh claimed to be the king. And the only king that we have is Caesar. And if you um uh if you let him go, then you're no
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friend of them. But God said, "I am to who?" To the Pharisees, right? To the ones that are that were trying. I mean, sorry. Jesus said, "I am to the Pharisees." Right? The ones that you're saying uh to the higher authorities. Uhhuh. Went
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to the higher authorities um to get him executed. But why why did they go through such lengths to lie and to get him crucified? Because he said, "I am he declared his divinity. He declared one with the father." That's the whole
Speaker A
point. They believe. Have you read John 8? Yes. I I quoted that. It does seem like we're a little bit looping here a little bit. So, let's let's go to closings here. I'm going to let you do the closing. I'll give you a
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final thought. All right. And then we'll go to the next person here because we I I feel like y'all are talking past each other. We're making the same claim about three or four times here. So, just for the sake of the audience, let's go to
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you who do the closing and then we'll uh that way maybe get people up here a second time for a second topic. So, go ahead. Go ahead and do a closing.
Speaker A
Got it. Okay. Great. So, in closing, we're going to agree to disagree. Jesus Christ is God. He is one with the father. There's uh such thing as the holy trinity. Um it's three persons in one. It's God the Father, God the Son,
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and the Holy Spirit. Um there is no other way to the father except through Jesus Christ. Uh he is the way, the truth, and the life. Uh no one can get to the father except through him. And there's such thing as an
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absolute truth. And the truth that absolute truth has a name, and his name is Jesus Christ. Amen.
Speaker A
Wow. Any thoughts there? Thoughts for you? Yeah. So sorry, but you you didn't show me where Jesus claimed to be God. So um yeah, when Jesus says egoy, we already know that that's not the name of God.
Speaker A
God's name is Haun in the Greek. It's not ego. Jesus says egoy means the Messiah. They believed in him right before verse 30. Right? So they already acknowledged the egoime. That's not why they wanted to unalive him. Uh that's
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that's one. Um let's see. Jesus also says that the uh only true God is the father. He says that um uh he reiterates to uh that God is um one, right? He reiterates the shama of Deuteronomy. Um uh
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and everything about his uh that he everything that he claims about himself proves that he's not God. He went out of his way to make it clear that he was not God. He claimed that he was a man. God
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says in the Old Testament multiple times that God is not a man. He claims that uh he was sent by God. He claims that he uh the that the father is greater than him.
Speaker A
Nobody can be greater than God. So if he's God, then nobody can be greater than him. They would have to be at the same level, but they're not. Um he says that uh let's see what else. Um yeah,
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that he's the way to the father. Beautiful. The the way to salvation has always been through the prophets. Um through um Moses, the way to salvation was to follow Moses. The way to salvation was to follow um to get on the
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ark with Noah. the the way to salvation was always been through the prophets. That's the goal of the prophets, but he's not the destination. The father is the destination because he's God, right?
Speaker A
So yeah. All right. Thank you so much. Let's get these super chats up. I think we're next we're going to have Miss um um Thank you, Tina.
Speaker A
Thank you. All right. And if we get the super chats up, thank you all so much. That was a good one. Uh here once again, guys, we're gonna read all the super chats over $5. As long as they're not
Speaker A
disrespectful uh in some manner. I see how some of y'all be sometimes. All right. So, yeah, let's get this first here. Ali, Ali, excuse me, brother. I'm gonna keep your name. I'm so sorry. Ollie 10 Amar for 10 pounds.
Speaker A
The Christian sister said Jesus resurrected with quotes around it. What is resurrection? She did not appear to his murderers, the Romans, and as a result, Christians remain oppressed underground for 300 plus years.
Speaker A
Interesting question. All right, next question. Next one. Another one for Mr. Ali Tin Amar. He's given a lot to the day. Thank you so much for the monies. We appreciate it.
Speaker A
Our our quotes is the plural of majesty sister and saying the god needed to die in order to be capable of for forgiven us is the definition of limiting god.
Speaker A
All right. Thank you so much. Another one from Mr. Almar uh for five pounds I believe. Mark 15 2-9 says Jesus was uh un alive for telling pilot he's the king of the Jews not because he is God. Okay. Thank you
Speaker A
so much for that. Uh okay. I I feel like I'm going to Listen, I appreciate the money. I don't want to butcher your name, but Ma, this is for Tina W. Spiritual. I'm going to butcher that to keep rolling. There you go.
Speaker A
Appreciate it. Sounds like they're supporting you. Aliar. Um, pound $10. Did you know that Jesus is not eternal according to the man who created the Lord Trinity said, "For there's a time where sin uh never existed, nor the son
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uh tetrion in against uh hero hero jeans chapter 3." All right. Yeah, guys. Uh some of these religious words I'm going to butcher and some of y'all's names if I butcher them I apologize. I don't want to disrespect y'all uh in any formal
Speaker A
way. I just want to get that out there. Mike the heretic from Tel Aviv for $4.99. Yellow claims to read the text but jumps through who true God verse not unbiased. Great John Tina less known on YouTube but knowledgeable. All right.
Speaker A
Thank you so much for that. Uh block partyage 1568. We are not stoning you for any good work. reply but for blasphemy because you are a mere man claim to be gone claim to be God. John 10:33. Thank
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you for that. Uh Alli said oh with another five pounds. Uh thank you for making it rain brother. John 13:3 Jesus knew that the Jesus knew that the father had put uh all things in his heart. They had come from God was returning to God.
Speaker A
Thank you very much. Another one for all 10 Aaron. when Jesus failed to fully heal the blind man at the first temp Mark 8 uh 22-26 and couldn't perform miracles and everything when in Nazareth Mark 13:54- 58 he was
Speaker A
acting quality we had a quality video I believe we already read that one thank you so much all right and that's where we're caught up all right uh we believe we're doing the same topic Miss Tina if you don't mind reading the same topic uh
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beginning as well sure Jesus never claimed to be God all right his angel take us away correct amen Jesus never claimed to be God but he does say that I am one but If you get married to your husband, are we
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not one? If we fuse in marriage, yeah, you're one in unity. Absolutely. And if his disciples are under him, under his teachings, they are not in unison. They are not in unity. So, they are one.
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They are. Absolutely. Okay. And u the actual holy trinity was not developed until the council of Nika decided that it was a terminology that needed to be used in our redacted or unredacted Bibles when they sat down and made the uh executive
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decision of what information could be included in the Bible. And it has been reducted multiple times ever since then.
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It's been edited King James version, um, English translation version, and some of these terminologies that we're referring to actually do, uh, translate in, uh, different words under different religions, different languages because there is no exact like uh there's no exact translation for
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some of these words. Like for example, he was persecuted. He was unal alived on a cross. But if you look at the actual translation, the cross was actually the original word was tree.
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Yeah. So was he actually Well, Paul makes that uh that comparison as well where he says that uh Jesus is a curse, which is something that no true disciple or apostle would ever say about Christ because Christ was a blessing.
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But uh Paul says that Jesus was a curse um in Galatians 3:13. And he makes that comparison to the law in Deuteronomy that anyone who is hang hung from a tree or a pole is cursed by God. So yeah.
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So what is the curse? Being re resurrected three days later. So yeah, so he had a theology where uh it was according to me a very antichrist theology. But I don't want to go off topic because the topic is Jesus never
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claimed to be God. Um but I would love to talk about uh Paul and his antichrist theology. um on another topic hopefully, but I don't want them to stop us. But um but yes, so it seems like you agree
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Jesus never claimed to be God and that Jesus is not God. Correct. Correct. Amen.
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There is an absolute difference between God and Jesus or the other names. There's Elohim, El Yahweh, uh El Elshadai. Um but God has like 99 names.
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I don't know. I haven't counted them all. They're not all listed in one paragraph. They're sporadic throughout the book. The books I'm plural, but um there is only one Jesus. And Jesus was a prophet. And like I said, the council of
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Nia was approximately 3:25 AD. And then uh the prophet, rest in peace, uh um why aren't you Muslim?
Speaker A
That's the path of Jesus Christ. Yes. The same message that Jesus preached about himself and preached about the father is the same message of Islam. Jesus preached Islam.
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I understand that I was born and raised Christian, Roman Christian in a suburb town of Ohio.
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Mhm. Uh north of Nazareth, north of um Lebanon, Ohio. And um actually I have studied multiple religions but for the purpose all intents and purposes of today's debate is versus Muslim but I have came across a few theologies
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beliefs um um theoretics throughout various religions that I have came across or studied researched and some things do make sense and some things don't but for all intents and purposes we're here today for the Christian versus Muslim.
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Yeah. Well, if you want to stick around, I'd love to have a conversation with you afterwards then if you'd like. Yeah, no problem.
Speaker A
So, yeah. We got a concession. Did you uh you had a second topic? I guess we can Did you want to do the second topic with uh Sure.
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Yeah. Go ahead. Why don't you read the prompt prompt too here since that was very quick.
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Um I feel like you will agree, but uh the second prompt is the prophets of God did not teach the doctrine of the trinity.
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Correct. I mean, basically, so I already touched off on that also, but um it's okay to to agree and to disagree, but yes, the actual ideology behind the trinity was developed by the council of Nika approximately 320 AD.
Speaker A
All right. Well, it seems like we've come to an agreement here. So, uh I guess we'll have you back later unless you had something else you want to write about. I don't know. Uh did you did you disagree with the third topic?
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Islam has more evidence of being true than Christianity. I do believe Christianity is older than than Muslim theology.
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Well, I don't think even you would dispute that Christianity comes before. Well, I believe that all the prophets did preach Islam. So, I believe that Islam is the original.
Speaker A
Um, but uh if you mean that Christianity is older than the prophet peace be upon him, uh, Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, then obviously yes, uh, Christianity uh, developed uh, centuries before. But um but are are you still a
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Christian? Oh yeah. Okay. Do you believe that Christianity has more evidence of being true? Uh not what's older or whatever we can get about that. But there's a lot of similarities that are the the same or very very similar all
Speaker A
across the board. Like for example the flooding like if you proof has shown flooding all across the the globe. So uh some of these narratives can be twisted and distorted by different What's your definition of Christianity?
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The belief of a higher power that we were all created by the uh greatest the ultimate higher power.
Speaker A
Absolutely. I mean that's a belief in Islam. Of course we were uh there's only one creator and he created everything.
Speaker A
Um okay. So what about Christianity then? is uh are you just what's the difference between Christianity and Islam to you? Why would you uh argue for Christianity instead of Islam?
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If you would I I don't know if you would. I'm just getting that vibe since you're here.
Speaker A
Christianity is more lenient in some aspects. Like you guys are very particular about pork. We have been warned against pork, but we were not directed like do not eat um cloven hooves. I mean, it's it's mentioned in the Bible, but
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it's not like a law of everyday life. It's a it's a command. Yes, it is a command, but it's also a command not to kill, not to fornicate, not to cheat on your husband, your wife, yet right. So, so it's Yeah, of course. I
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was but that's that doesn't mean Christianity allows you. So are you saying that Christianity is more lenient towards sin?
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Is it it's possible? I mean I'm saying just because the disciples said that you are supposed to forgive somebody if they slap you in the face turn the other cheek. But what authority do I have to forgive you?
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If you step on my tote, if you steal my horse, I ask God to grant me authority to forgive those who offend me or my Well, you're called. You're you're called to, right? U because those who forgive get forgiven by the father.
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That's what Jesus says, right? I pray forgiven. Mh. Um, but am I supposed to be asking for a a a shield and a sword every time somebody offends me? Like I I pray that you be blessed.
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Yes. No matter how mad you make me, I still pray that you are blessed because obviously you're lacking something.
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You're lacking morals. You're lacking lacking funds. You're lacking food. You're lacking something that you're lacking. So yes, I am going to pray.
Speaker A
Yeah, that's very that's very wise. But what's the like argument for Christianity as opposed to Islam for that?
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Well, um I'm not saying that it's more lenient, but I'm saying like the whole basis of the foundation of the United States was we're going to steal this land from the Indians and and in the name of Christianity.
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Uhhuh. And that way that's why Christianity is more true. Well, it's definitely more older. Uh, is there any record books that you guys actually invaded property and stole people's land? Or if if we did, would that make it true?
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Did that make it true? If there was evidence, just just for clarification on I mean, you could correct me if I'm I'm wrong.
Speaker A
Islam was a was one of the most successful conquering religions in history. They like spread from a very small area and like conquered massive portions of the known world. That's in fact in fact that's why the Spanish not by genocide not in the way that
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Americans I didn't say that I didn't say I just like just in fact that's why even you brought up you brought up the native Americans I mean in fact if you go back to Spain the reconista as part of
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Spanish Christians pushing out uh Muslims and other groups and then the queen Isabella hires an Italian Columbus to come to the United States like that was a response to what she perceived as Arab aggression whether or not that was
Speaker A
an appropriate response is another debate I don't think well that's fine but I would just argue They've obviously conquered stuff in history. They've been around indoctrin for a while. I'm a little confused what your point is.
Speaker A
I guess see what what what makes the but everyone who um who comes to God must come to God through by the authority of me Jesus. That's what he said. Okay. So, okay. Does that mean when we're conquering like when Rome was conquered
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or when Italy was conquered or when when America was conquered, does that make it right? No.
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If it can be verified or not verified, does that still are right now? Are you saying that because they were successful in conquering even though it was wrong then that meant that meant that does that make it correct
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that that meant that God was giving them authority to do is that what you're saying?
Speaker A
Okay. Yeah. But that wouldn't that wouldn't work because then that would mean that many uh nations and and uh empires were were uh true like the Mongols for example right do you believe throughout all the things that I have
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studied all the different philosophies all of the different religions all the different theories that I have came across the ultimate decision that I have came to is as long as I believe that there is an ultimate source there is a
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one source that created all of us all of this this whole matrix that we are in.
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There is some entity or some energy responsible for everything that has transpired ever since the plants were developed, the oceans were developed, man was developed. Hey, name this item, name this animal, name this fruit.
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Do you believe in the Bible? Absolutely. I believe in the Bible. Do I believe the Bible?
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I wouldn't say 100% because what's the difference? the the the the analogies that are there and the um commandments that are listed for us to go by and it was a great teaching mechanism for schools also teaching math
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and how to do your research and verify and valid validate uh information. So in that aspect, there's a great teaching tool, but there's so many inconsistencies that That's true. Yeah.
Speaker A
You really just don't know what to believe. Like even in the even in Genesis, the there's inconsistencies.
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Then there's inconsistencies about how um different disciples passed away. He was taken up into heaven. Oh no, he was hung by by himself. He committed suicide. Okay. Have you read the crime?
Speaker A
Oh, his guts exploded on the field. Like, it doesn't make sense. There are some parents that don't make sense. But I don't mean to disrespect my elders and I don't disre mean to any disrespect to my ancestors, but in that aspect, I I
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thank them for bringing that information into my life. But they also taught me to question authority.
Speaker A
So sure use rational logical thinking to to evaluate what you're looking at. Ah why don't you make closing? I'll let you have a final response here to this.
Speaker A
Go ahead. Then we're going to get the next version. Go ahead. Did you want to say anything?
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Anything else? Do you have anything added that or is that you want to double as your closing and well this was a little off topic but how do we not know that the the uh the third part of the holy trinity is not
Speaker A
the Sophia mother the met feminine divine the third part of the and it could have been one of the things that they decided to leave out of the book. Uh yeah. Yeah, a little off topic.
Speaker A
I don't know. That might be one y'all to discuss later because that's not on the the prompts here today, but uh yeah, if y'all want to, you more than welcome to have a uh conversation after regards that. We're going to get uh Thank you so
Speaker A
much. If we get the super chats up here, thank you for that. Uh we're going we're gonna have Miss Nice meeting Carolyn come up here next uh for this next one. Also, to be clear, I wasn't making any claims about any sort of
Speaker A
whatever there. I was just pointing out the histo from it from a Christian's perspective. I could have done it from an Islamic perspective. I just uh you know we could have picked uh you know Saladine being one of the most
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successful military campaigns all time or meth you know and Dracula comes from you know u the kind of the wars between Christians and Muslims. I mean yeah there's I I was just pointing out historical facts. I wasn't making any
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grand claims just to be clear uh on that issue at hand. Um either way, um go ahead. Uh Miss uh what which title were you starting off with? You're doing the Jesus claim to be God. Mr. Garin, is
Speaker A
that correct? Yes, that's right. If you don't mind reading this, oh, let me read the super chat and then we'll do that. Uh that guy over yonder 4774 says for $10, where in the Bible does Jesus say, "I'm not God. Do not worship me."
Speaker A
Those exact words. And what prophet can say he has glory with the father before the world was? Okay. Thank you for that.
Speaker A
That's it, brother. All right. Thank you so much. All right, guys. As always, make sure you get super chats in. be able to pin them and read them. Miss Deina, if you don't mind reading my thoughts off that for us.
Speaker A
Uh, sure. I I think you said the first one, right? Uh, okay. So, Jesus never claimed to be God.
Speaker A
All right. Take us away. Uh, full disclosure, I am a stand-up comedian and producer.
Speaker A
But before that, in another lifetime, I was a teacher, an assistant youth minister, a theology teacher, CCD teacher in my Catholic faith. And I'm also very connected to the Jewish community as well. So I'm basically the ecumenical counsel today. I'm gonna come
Speaker A
at you from a few different perspectives but we are honored in any any case. It says Jesus never claimed to be God. That is emphatically not true. Yes, the Catholic Church firmly teaches that Jesus claimed to be God and is fully God
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and the doctrine supporting that is full divinity and humanity. Catholic theology holds that Jesus is the true God and true man. The hipposatic union meaning he possesses both a complete divine nature and a complete human nature in one person. That is our belief.
Speaker A
Okay. Um so I'm I'm familiar that that's what you believe and I think that u most Christians would agree agree with you.
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But I'm asking you where does Jesus himself claim to be God? I feel I just explained that.
Speaker A
No. Well, you said that the clear you said that the Catholic Church says that he does.
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And as a Catholic Christian, I do believe that. So, do you believe that he claimed to be God because they told you he claimed to be God?
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No, because he is God. He's clearly God. He's a divine being, someone that walked this earth as a physical person.
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Okay. How do you How do you know that he walked this earth? It's written in the New Testament.
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Okay. Okay. Does in the New Testament does it also say that he claimed to be God?
Speaker A
Uh I don't have a scripture in front of you. I'm just telling you what I know to be true as a Catholic.
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And in the Trinity, Jesus is identified as God the Son, the second person of the blessed trinity along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Speaker A
Yes. So, so I believe that this is a man-made concept that it doesn't actually align with the Bible and it doesn't align with what Jesus says about himself. Um, so I'm curious if you u did want to pull up any verses or anything
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where Jesus himself claims to be God. Well, I don't necessarily need to pull up a verse, but I can pull up what we recite in in our faith at mass every Sunday during the council of Nika and it
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was referenced earlier, which is in 25 AD. Yeah. 4th centur. So, I I'm still speaking.
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Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead. The church formally defined that Jesus is consubstantial of the same substance with the father, which is God. A belief recited every Sunday in every Catholic church in America.
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Okay. Uh did Jesus say that? Pardon me. Did Jesus say that? Did Jesus say he was consubstantial? No.
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Okay. Did he say that he was declared that? Okay. So, okay. So, so it was humans who said that about Christ, but Christ didn't say that about himself.
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No, because he didn't have to. He was divine. He was already a part of God.
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How do you know that? It's the Holy Trinity. And how do you know about that?
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How do I know about the Holy Trinity? Okay, here we go. Here we go.
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I know I know you're going to tell me that the church told you that, right?
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But I'm but I want to know where the church got that. Well, clearly it was written.
Speaker A
Okay. I'd like to see it. Okay. Well, while she looks that up, chat, make sure you all get those super chats in here. Appreciate it, guys. If you get super chats, we will read them in $5 and above. Thank you so much, guys. And
Speaker A
also, we're doing memberships. I see that uh Mr. Olly Tin got a membership in. Uh thank you so much. Uh we appreciate that as well. And any of the other people, I think Sean, Mr. Sean Kelly himself gifted out some members
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channel. Hey, you got the the owner of the channel popping in, giving out gifts. We appreciate that, too. Go ahead M.
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Okay, I can go ahead. Um basically in the gospel of John just as John 858 Jesus uses the divine name I am ego in my echoing God's revelation to Moses in Exodus.
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What makes you think that I'm reading it right now? I need to go ahead.
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Thank you. He also applies divine titles like the Alpha and the Omega in the book of Revelation.
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What makes you think that those are divine titles? because it's written in the Bible.
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Sure. It's written it's written in Revelation that Jesus uh supposedly said in a dream that he's the alpha and omega. What makes you think that's a divine title?
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I'm sorry. I didn't understand the last part of what you said. What makes you think that that's a divine title? What makes you think that he's claiming to be God?
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Because it's written in the book of Revelation. It's written that he said that, right?
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Accepted as the New Testament. Come on, move it a little bit. You're not in the gray square. I'm so sorry.
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He's in the grace square. Go ahead. There you go. Am I good? I think Yeah, you're good now. Perfect.
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Go ahead. Sorry. Go ahead. I'll interrupt you. Go ahead. Right. So, yeah. So, the book of revelation is supposedly uh John having a vision or a dream, right, of Christ coming to him, giving him some, you know, some visions, etc. Interpretation
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as well. Revelation is interpreted in so many different ways. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's very symbolic. But um but when he makes this claim, right, we can at least say that the author of Revelation claims that Jesus said this. Okay, that's fine.
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and I can grant that to you. What makes you think that it's a divine title though?
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What specifically is a divine title? What are you referring to? It would be a title that specifically means that they are God or that only God can share because or have God and one are basically one and the
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same. Right. But if I say that I am the A and the Z, am I claiming to be one?
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I'm sorry. I could you repeat that? If I say that I am the A and the Z, what does that mean? Can you clarify?
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It's the first letter of the English alphabet and the last letter of the English.
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What do you mean in saying that reference? So, so you would need to know what I mean by that. Correct. So, that's why I'm asking you. Yes.
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Okay. Wonderful. So, that's why I'm asking you, why do you think that when Jesus says that he's the alpha, which is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, and the omega, which is the last letter of the Greek alphabet, what makes you
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think that he's claiming to be God? God is God. Alpha, Omega, whatever you want to call it. It's all linguistics in my book.
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Okay. I'm I'm sorry. I'm not That's how I see it. Okay. So, if I say I am You're using linguistics to do the truth.
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No, I'm not using I'm asking you why you believe that the saying that he's the first letter of the Greek alphabet and the last letter of the Greek alphabet.
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Why do you believe that? That's him claiming to be God. That's all I'm asking.
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Because it's written right here in the Bible that God, you know, loved us so much that he came to give us this beautiful gift of Jesus.
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and he died for our sins. Okay. So, who gave you Jesus? God. And God is one and the same. As as an educator, as a CCD teacher, I had to simplify it for my third graders. And I basically described the trinity in in
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the form of a shamrock, which is pretty well known by St. Patrick. And um you know, it's still a shamrock even though there's three leaves. It's still one and the same. Such as Jesus is with God and the Holy Spirit.
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Right. So that would be an openification in this. It's a heresy. I It's not a heresy by any means.
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It's it's partialism. I I disagree with you wholeheartedly. It's not a heresy. It's taught in religious classes as we speak.
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The Catholic Church teaches that God is like a sh as as an oversimplification for a young child. Yes.
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Okay. So you have to appeal to a heresy to teach the trinity. It's not a heresy. I disagree with you wholeheartedly. We can agree to disagree on that. You know, we obviously come from different backgrounds and I respect
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everything, but at the same time, I hold true to my belief system. When Yeah. And I I want to uh understand your belief system. So, I'm just asking you because right now I'm just getting that you believe something because the
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church told you that, right? The church and my faith. Yes, I do believe that.
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What if the church is lying? The church isn't lying. How do you know? Because we're basing it on the Bible.
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Just as beautiful. That's where I want to that's where I want to go. Everything on the Torah, which I'm also familiar with.
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I don't base everything on the Torah, but that's okay. So, um, is it okay? We're having a discussion.
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Yeah. Yeah. I just don't that's just incorrect. I don't base everything on the Torah. That's not what I believe. I think you meant the Quran, but that's okay. So, I'm just asking you, right?
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So, you you said the Bible, right? Yes. Okay. So, the Holy Bible, the Old Testament and the New Testament. That is correct.
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All right. Wonderful. So, in that Bible, I'm going to grant you that the Bible should just for the sake of this argument. Okay, that the red letters Christ really said that. I'm asking you where you got the idea that Jesus
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claimed to be God. It's in the Bible. It's right there in front of you.
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Where? So, for example, you you gave it an example where you said Alpha and Omega, but you weren't able to tell me.
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I read, if I may ask, I I've read the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation scriptures to quote you, but I do know my basic belief systems.
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I mean, I can all Can you teach me where Jesus said that he's God?
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I thought I just did and the council of na decide defined it Jesus is consubstantial.
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Okay. So in the 4th century they decided that Jesus made that claim. Correct. The council of na did. Yes.
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Okay. In reference to the church. Can you show me anyone before the 4th century?
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Probably not. Frankly I probably don't know anything before the 4th century but by all means enlighten me.
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Okay. So I mean that's Yeah. What is your evidence of what exactly? Before the 4th century. I'd really love to hear that.
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Before the fourth century. What? I just want to know. I don't know. I What are we talking about?
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Okay. So yeah. So would you like to intervene? I'm doing my job. I'm I'm not so concerned about where she's coming from.
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I'm a little concerned about where you're coming from to be totally honest. And I have two religious doctrines. It's not like I'm totally lost in this conversation either. So Okay. So, uh, the trini, yeah, the before the 4th century, the trinity
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didn't look the way that it did. Um, in fact, it was a response to aryanism. I we won't get in there. I I want to just stick with the Bible, right? I want to talk about Jesus and what he claimed, right?
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Do do you know anything that he claimed? Forget about him claiming to be God for just one second. Anything else that he claimed about himself?
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That he claimed about himself. Well, obviously he was our Lord and Savior. He died on the cross for us.
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Let me help you out here because I feel like this might help. So earlier and you've gone very very thoroughly through John 10:30 like several times already.
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So I'm not going to. So what she's what Miss Tina here I believe is asking you is in relations to like where specifically Jesus himself claims because she's not accepting the council na because it's a group of humans that
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came this termination just like Martin Luther the Eastern Orthodox Church might not recognize the council na. So what she's wanting is something like John 858 which would be like very truly I tell you for Abraham I was born I am which
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she's already disputed right she's already disputed and saying this thing I actually think all the verses that I'm seeing here in front of me uh you you've disputed. So kudos to you for for disputing all these usually go to. But
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so I guess what like which which one of these uh like verses other than maybe some of these ones from John do you think do you have that Jesus has like said himself claimed to be divine? I guess is because this is like I
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understand this is like a a belief debate about beliefs but right now we need the fundamentals like what leads you to this belief. Is that a fair that's kind of what you're Yeah. It was more about uh I mean I
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don't know John 3:16 would be the one I would go to as far as well John 3:16 is in Jesus speaking but also uh it's um it doesn't say that Jesus is God. It says for God so loved
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the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever may believe have to give his only son that would imply that there's more than one part of God. Correct.
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You believe there's more than one part of God. No it's the holy trinity again.
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Yeah that's an that's a heres that's partialism. So um uh okay so God isn't divided into parts uh even your Catholic church um would disagree with you but um okay so him giving his only begotten son again how would that even prove that he's God
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even if I were to entertain the idea of partialism that Jesus is one part of God and the father is another how would that prove that can you rephrase the question yeah how would John 3:16 prove that Jesus was God or even a god
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Because God gave his son. He He granted permission for his son to come to this earth and die on a cross for us.
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Okay. I'm failing to see what part of that makes Jesus God. I see that he was sent. Okay. Um I see that he was uh um killed the the cross, right? Um I think both of those already would make me
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think that Jesus is not God because God cannot be killed. God cannot be uh sent anywhere, right? God is the ultimate authority, right? Um and he is immortal.
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So what makes you think John 3:16? Because he was divine and he walked this earth as a human being. He was born in the immacul immaculate conception from a virgin, a virgin birth.
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Okay. Um he wasn't just your everyday ordinary human being. Sure, he was a great human being. Many, many miracles, but what makes him god?
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Because being born already means you're not God, right? Well, no, I disagree with that.
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Okay. Wholeheartedly. Okay. Wonderful. Can you show me how being born in the way that he was born makes him God?
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It was an immaculate conception. Okay. Do you know what I mean by that? Yeah. Okay. So, but how does that make you It wasn't an ordinary birth by any means.
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Sure. There was many unordinary uh births. How does that make him go? because he came from God directly.
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Okay. Did we Did we all come from God according to the Bible? We're all children of God. Absolutely.
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Do we all come from God? If we believe in God and we ask God to protect us and watch over us, we're all children of God.
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Okay. Ultimately, we can agree on that. Sure. But um did God put your soul in your mother's womb?
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Did God put my soul? Well, I don't know about the soul, but I know about the eggs. They've been carried over for centuries. So, he gave you life in your mother's womb.
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Okay. Wonderful. Uh, did God give birth uh or created and gave life to Adam and Eve without parents?
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Absolutely. He did give life to Adam and Eve. Okay. Are they God? Are Adam and Eve God? No.
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Okay. Why not? They're the forefathers of the church basically. Oh, wow. Um, okay. So, so Jesus was born. He actually, you know, was growing inside a woman's uh womb, right? He was dependent upon upon Mary. When he was uh
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when she gave birth, he was dependent on her sustenance, uh getting breastfed, growing. It says he grew in wisdom, right? Um true.
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Okay. So, so he seems like he was growing like a normal human being, right? He didn't have the attributes of God, right? God is independent, but Jesus was dependent. what was going on in her womb. Exactly. Because I'm not
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inside Mary's womb to see that. But that's where my faith comes in that God was ultimately having this baby born.
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Okay. Well, according to the New Testament, he was dependent upon Mary, right? Well, he was dependent upon Mary, but I'm saying I don't have a a camera inside of her womb to find out what exactly was going on.
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No problem. But he was still dependent and God is independent, right? uh he had to grow in wisdom. God is all wise and he had parents that took him to the temple and he learned many things as a
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young child. Okay. So he's not all knowing. So everything that you're saying right now seems like he's not God because there are essential attributes for God, right?
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That way you can distinguish God from from a cow, right? Because Well, I would hope I could. Yeah.
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Yeah. Right. So there's a big difference. Okay. Okay. Well, that's good. They're not sacred. They're just animals.
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How do you know Hindu say they're sacred? Well, in my unopin, unethical opinion, they're not sacred. They're just animals.
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What about a cow makes it not sacred? What makes it not sacred? People eat it every day. If it was sacred, people wouldn't eat it.
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Hindus don't eat cow. Well, that's Hindus, but everyone else does. So, okay. Well, you you eat the flesh of I mean, again, I'm a comedian and you know, some of this is just entertaining to me.
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Okay. Do you eat uh according to the Catholic Church, do you eat the flesh of Christ and drink his blood?
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Yes. Okay. So, if he was sacred, you wouldn't do that. I do. It's part of my religion.
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Okay. So, he's not sacred. Pardon me. So, he's not sacred. Of course, he's sacred.
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Why? There's a process in the Catholic Church during the mass called consubstantiation where the body and blood of Christ are blessed. Mhm.
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And we literally believe that we are taking in the body of Christ. It's part of our faith.
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You believe you believe it literally in a metaphysical sense. Absolutely. But that's absolutely. So what's the difference between you?
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Okay. So if you can eat sacred flesh, what's the difference between you and I mean what's the difference between Jesus and the cow?
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Well, maybe you can enlighten me on that too. What What is the difference between Jesus and the cow?
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Yeah. So Okay. So God has essential attributes, right? Okay. He's not limited. Um he is uh uh not he's not an animal. Right. The the uh attributes of a cow go directly against the attributes of God. Right. God is immortal. A cow is
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not immortal. God created the cow. God created everything. Right. So So we're all God.
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No, I mean as a sense of he created the animals for a purpose. Okay. So the nature of a cow.
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Correct. Sure. But but okay by that very admission they're created. God is uncreated. I'm not following maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying.
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Okay. So there are essential attributes that God has to have. Right. He's uncreated and he's the creator. Right.
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He's the ultimate creator. Absolutely. Okay. He is eternal. Right. He is immortal. Okay. He is unlimited.
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He is all powerful. He is all knowing. He is allseeing. He is all hearing.
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Okay. Cows don't share those attributes. Human beings don't share those attributes. And according to the New Testament, Jesus did not share those attributes.
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Well, I disagree. Okay. Why? Jesus was divine. Okay. How how was he divine? He was sent from God.
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Were you sent from God directly to go save the world? I don't think so.
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Uh to save the world. We were all sent by God. What do you mean?
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If you're a Christian or a Catholic and believe that Jesus died for us ultimately you can God die?
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Well, Jesus died on the cross. The physical can God die? God is part of the Holy Trinity.
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Let me let me just We're rehashing some ground again here. Let's let's go to closings. Why don't you give your closing? I'll let you have a final thought and then we'll get the next person up here.
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All right. Um again, Jesus is a part of the Holy Trinity. He is a part of God, the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
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And um I can agree to disagree with you on several topics like what? Well, I aside from the fact that I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe, um it doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement.
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Okay. So, wonderful. So, you appeal to the Catholic Church, right? I appeal to everyone.
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The Catholic I'm a comedian. I appeal to many things. I I was raised as a born again Christian. I converted to Catholicism. And again, I have ties with the Jewish community as well. So, I represent I said earlier the ecumenical
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council. I I kind of believe that. All right. Is that is that your closing?
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That's my closing. Any closing thoughts from you, Mr. Um, yeah. So I think that putting your faith in uh the words of men um uh about another man whom who you you worship and claim that is God. I think
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that that's a very bad thing to do. Jesus himself warns against that in the New Testament. Jesus said that he's a man. Jesus uh and God says he's not a man multiple times. So if Jesus is a man
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and God says he's not a man, then we can put two and two together that Jesus is not God. Jesus says that he was sent by God. Jesus says the father is the only true God. Jesus says that um he is uh
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that the father is greater than he. Um Jesus says that uh what do you call it?
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That he's the way to God. Jesus says that um that he was the son of God, but he never said that he was God himself.
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Right. And I agree to disagree with that. All right. Thank you so much. We have Miss uh Scott up next. Let's get to super chats. Also chat wondering about my background. I have two religious doctorates and a former Southern Baptist
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minister. I'm not practicing anymore. So, I am more than qualified to handle this debate. I just am usually the political moderator for all these shows because we have the wonderful Sean and Omar who's an expert in all these
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fields. Uh, but let's start with these super chats. Uh, Ali, Tim, Aar Omar, thank you so much for being a member and subbing and all that good jazz today.
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All the money you donated. We appreciate it. Jesus literally said he's not the true God. John 73 lol. Ask and ye shall receive. Uh, what's the next one, you guys? Is that it? But we got a another one from Ollie 10 name. What's that?
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I think this one got skipped. Okay, that's fine. Uh, another one from Mr. Ali here. Uh, for 10 pounds. A Christian sister said Jesus resurrected quote unquote. What did his resurrection achieve if he did not appear to his
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murderers? The Romans result Christians remain oppressed in the ground for 300 years. I believe we did read that one.
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Uh, is there another one? That was it. All right, that's it. All right, guys.
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Once again, make sure you super chat. Anything over five $5, I'm going to be reading them or $4.99 and higher, I guess, really. uh you know as long as they are to uh also if you have a toss
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name in chat you will be getting banned as well. Uh we we are you know not allowing any kind of uh I don't know derogatory aspects to our stream trying to run a professional operation around these spots. All right so it looks like
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Scott which prompt was the one you wanted the first one again. Uh yes. Yes. And if you don't mind reading the prompt again for us Tina.
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Sure. Jesus never claimed to be gone. All right Miss Scott take us away. Okay. Sorry my heart is pumping and going talking to Okay. My my bad. So, my heart and blood is boiling because some of these is is I'm a side note. Um the
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Oh, the mic needs to go up. Yeah. And then if you want just make sure you stay in that little gray box.
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Okay. Go ahead. You're good. Okay. Okay. So, does this go up some? Uh it moves with you. Honestly, so there's a lot of diabolical stuff going on because like we're we're here to, you know, we're Christians and stuff, but
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like I'm trying to like, okay, you can't like not back it up with like scripture and um the whole Catholic and comedian thing. This is such a side note before I get into that. It's really like disrespectful because you keep like um
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you keep saying she keeps asking you questions and you keep saying like um oh it's because it's in the Bible but you're not backing it up with the word and it's we're it's supposed to be Bible based like for and it's not about um for
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religion. It's not about religion. It's about um your relationship with God. And if you follow the word and if you're if the word applies to your life and if you live out the word through your actions and everything, by all means, I'm not,
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you know, nobody's perfect. You know, I'm coming back, you know, on the right path. You know, I had my um my uh for those of you that know me, whatever, if you don't, you guys know my my old
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career with, you know, porn, porn and all that. But God uh is retransforming my life and stuff. Reformative my life and stuff. And just because you go to Thank you. Amen. Sister girl, you clapping. Yes. Period. Okay. But no,
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just because you go to church, I mean, just because you go to the hospital doesn't mean you're healed. The same thing with going to church doesn't mean you're healed. So, there is a lot of like mis um information, a lot of like
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all these stuff that people are saying and it's not really making sense. it's they're not healed. They're still going to, you know, the hospital to try to get healed, you know. Same over here.
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But, um, I do got to pray really fast because like to to like calm down. Um, dear Lord, heavenly father, I pray that, um, I pray that I'll be able to get your word out peacefully and not get like um
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anger angry because I don't want to I'm trying to please you and your word.
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Please speak through me, dear God, so I could get your word out properly, dear heavenly father, and forgive me if I say anything that's not um according to your word. In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen.
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Uh and uh is that it? Okay, so where we at? Okay, my bad. Sorry, my blood. I needed to No, I love that. It's all right. A little bit nervous, but go ahead. Go ahead. I'm passionate, guys. I'm very passionate.
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Okay. Okay. Okay. Let's get into it. Hey, by the way, could you send me shaman when you get a chance? Thank you.
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Go ahead. Okay, let's get into it. Let's get into it, baby. Okay, so um so Jesus didn't need to say the exact English sentence, I am God. In John 8:58, he says, before Abraham, I am.
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Then they picked up stones to merc him. So my question is simple. What do they think he was claiming?
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Okay. So, um one within John 8. Okay. Um Jesus said ego Amy u multiple times, right? Two to three times. And uh they they believed him, right? So we know that ego Amy means that he's the Messiah. So he said that multiple times
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that I am is the Messiah that many will come in my name claiming to be the I am, right? Claiming to be the Messiah. Um that's what he says when he's talking about false prophets, false messiahs, etc. He's not claiming that many people
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will come claiming to be God but rather the Messiah. Um so he said this to the same group of people um and they believed him. Then Jesus begins in that conversation to the ones that believe him and he says that um uh that they are
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not the children of Abraham because they do not do what Abraham did, right? And that they are not the children of God because if they did they would love him, right? But rather they are the children of the devil because they are doing the
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will of Satan which is to unal alive him. they were plotting his murder essentially even though they believe that he's the messiah, right? Um then he talks about how uh they misunderstand his words because they have no spiritual
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understanding. Um there's no truth in them and uh you know uh you know they are the children of the father of lies etc. Uh then he um oh then they try to appeal to Abraham, right? They they say
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well um are you greater than our father Abraham, right? Abraham died and so did the prophets, but you claim that whoever believes in you will live. Right? Now Jesus here is talking about um uh eternal life, right? Spiritual life. And
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they're confusing that with physical life. Um so he says that before Abraham was I am, right? So claiming that he uh uh has authority. There was also a part where um oh he says that um that Abraham rejoiced at the thought of
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seeing his day. Right? Then he affirms to the Jews that he saw it and was glad.
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Right? They misunderstand him and they think that Jesus is claiming that he saw Abraham but rather it was Abraham who rejoiced at the thought of his day because that would be the fulfillment of the covenant right with Isaac. Um so
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they either twist his words uh on purpose or they misunderstand him like Jesus said they would and they said well you are not yet 50 years old. How have you how can you claim that you have seen Abraham? Jesus says before Abraham was I
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am uh meaning that his authority and his uh um uh destiny right was uh before Abraham right um that he was destined to be the Messiah that he was destined to be um uh the fulfillment of the covenant
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right that Abraham is not going to save them essentially he is the savior right now they didn't like this because just like John the Baptist said in Luke that uh uh that they thought that claiming that they were descendants of Abraham
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would essentially be their salvation Um, and John the Baptist told them not to do that, but they did anyway. Jesus said that being descendants of Abraham will not be their salvation. And so they wanted to stone him. Sorry for that long
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rant, but it had nothing to do with him claiming to be the I am because they already believed that he was the I am, which is the Messiah.
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Okay. So, um Okay. So for um this is a kind of okay. So Jesus, he came to this earth um to to save us um of course for our sin and his blood.
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He's the only one that's perfect. And he was we're born in the likeness of um God and uh we're not we're not we're not God, you know, but we're born in the likeness of him. And Jesus came to the
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earth because he's to get basically get down to our level and he was living his life to show us human beings of how we're supposed to be to living through him. He's showing his life um of how we're supposed to live it out and stuff.
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He went through trials and tribulations with everything, you know, and then that's why he prayed to God and everything. And even though it's the it's the same um uh they're the same. Uh he prayed to show um because he was in his the human
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form and so he needed to he needed to uh he needed to my bad. Am I fine? Okay.
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Yeah. Ignore me. Yeah. Ignore us. There's a lot of things happen in the background of live broadcast. Go ahead. I apologize. I have ADD so it's hard to focus sometimes when stuff is just like everywhere.
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Um but uh so yeah he came down to this earth to get on our level and um what was he showing you?
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He was showing us how to live like you know there's sin and he and the devil attemp uh tempted him you know and he prayed and that's what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to pray in those temptation. Anything, everything. Giving
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grace, giving thanks. We're stressed out. Pray, you know, we got to go to God. Everything, you know, that's we have to go to him. So, he he got tempted by the devil and he showed us cuz he didn't he didn't fall for the devil's
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schemes, you know. He um he uh he prayed and that's showing us like what we're supposed to do in the in the when in the temptation of sin when it comes our way in anything.
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Sure. Um, so if you are tempted, right, or um if you're struggling or let's say um let's say you're even about to be murdered like like Jesus was um uh scared of in the garden of Gethsemane.
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What does Jesus teach you to do? Um you got to turn the other cheek, baby, because it says that in the Bible.
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I mean connection to God, right? So he teaches you to pray to God, to ask for uh God's help, to um to seek God.
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Correct. Yes. To Okay. Wonderful. Wait, what did you I'm sorry. What else? So, essentially, you said and and I agree. I'm just reiterating that Jesus uh came to teach you, right, how to pray, how to connect to God, right?
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Etc. Okay. So, based on Jesus's example in the Bible, what would you do? Who do you pray to?
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Because what do you can I say something? Okay. So, when you just prayed, right, you pray to the heavenly father. No, you heavenly father. Okay. Go ahead. Let me know you.
Speaker A
Okay. So you you didn't pray to Jesus. You prayed to the father, which I think that's that's I said in Jesus' name. Sure. At the end ended out with that. So he's the heavenly father. God.
Speaker A
So because you're a follower of Christ, right? You you call out to God, right? And you say in Jesus's name because you claim to follow Jesus, right? So So you called out to the father just like Jesus did.
Speaker A
That's good. Yes. Okay. So but you didn't call out to Jesus. So no, I did. At the end I you ended out with prayer. heavenly father God, you know, and then you end it out so you know it's correct who you praying to.
Speaker A
And I made that clear when I said in Jesus name, amen. Okay. You know, so for um you said when um you pray out to him.
Speaker A
So my goodness, I lost my train of thought. You said something and I was about to say something, but then he kept going and then you know power through. Yeah, that's that's virtually. You got this. Wait, what was
Speaker A
the like who did you ask right now when you asked for calmness and ask for uh you know the ability to speak truth? Who who are you talking to?
Speaker A
Yes, Jesus. But you said heavenly father. Yes. Heavenly father. God. So father and Jesus the same person.
Speaker A
God. Yes. It's so our we're human beings. our mindset. We're not we don't know the spiritual world and stuff and what and how that like it's not going to it's not going to it's it sounds like crazy the whatever but it's because um
Speaker A
the spiritual world is way different than our our understanding of what the human brain so it's like you're kind of thinking small-minded of saying like oh this is uh you're thinking the holy uh you're not you're just praying to one
Speaker A
person or whatever. He's not. He He came down into to get on our level like I said um and came human form and that's the only way that's the only that's the only reason why um nobody could get to God but unless it's through
Speaker A
Jesus because God is perfect and everything. So he took his part of him you know and then came to to um to be a human so he could sacrifice his life for us in our sin so he could
Speaker A
I wasn't finished. I'm sorry. Go ahead. So he could so um he could sacrifice his life for us and uh like nobody comes through him but through you know Jesus.
Speaker A
We have to pray to him. We have to because we're in a human flesh. We can't just pray to like back in the day like the Old Testament like you can't just pray to God. Like we're we're sinners.
Speaker A
We're literally sinners and we can't just get to like his, you know, the father. So, we have to in order, we have to pray through Jesus.
Speaker A
He's the one that sacrificed. He came down and sacrificed his literal blood, his life for us.
Speaker A
Okay. Okay. So, so it's the father who is God and Jesus is the mediator.
Speaker A
That's the tr the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Okay. But you said in the old testament they were able to pray directly to God.
Speaker A
No, no. When they go when they went to the temple, um, who was that?
Speaker A
I think it was, was it John? I think it was John the Baptist. Oh my gosh.
Speaker A
Correct me if I'm wrong. Uh, was able to Whoa. Wait, no, that's a New Testament, right?
Speaker A
John the Baptist. New Yes. Yeah. Okay. No, that's Jesus. um you can't cuz they weren't you weren't able to go in and like cuz they're filled with sin, you know, and then they would uh uh he would like kill
Speaker A
you if you went into um the into the Yeah. If you went up in there and you were filled with sin, then you would, you know, you would die. So, and that's why Jesus came to the earth and had
Speaker A
sacrificed to get a whole different New Testament because um we are it says sinners for they don't forgive us for uh they don't know forgive us.
Speaker A
Help me out somebody because they're doing Yes. They don't know for what they're doing.
Speaker A
Okay. Okay. So, yes. Yeah. So, yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. No, go ahead. Go ahead.
Speaker A
I'm respond. Um, yeah. So, I I'm I'm I'm confused. Okay. I think I answered that, but like I was going there, but then confused as well, but I'm gonna let you like reframe it here.
Speaker A
Okay. Yeah. I I just want to Okay, we'll go we'll go back. So, Jesus showed you how to pray, right?
Speaker A
And and our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth is as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as
Speaker A
we forgive those who trespass against us. Okay. Now anywhere in that does he say Jesus or does he pray directly to the father?
Speaker A
He pray that was was that the new or the old? That was the new.
Speaker A
So he he didn't Was that okay? This was him giving the disciples this specific set of words and how to pray.
Speaker A
Yeah, that's the New Testament. Yeah, Jesus was in the New Testament. So, I mean, he didn't he didn't that was after he died.
Speaker A
No, that was So, he didn't die yet. He needed to be He's Jesus. He came down to show you how to Yes. to God. Cuz they're the same.
Speaker A
They're literally the same. It's not It's not um it's it that's part of him, you know, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. God is bigger than us. He's big like of course he created everything. He created bigger than Jesus.
Speaker A
Yes. Bigger. They're the same. They're literally the same. Okay. Is the father greater than Jesus?
Speaker A
That's his That's the son. Father, son, and the holy spirit. It's one. Okay. Who's greater?
Speaker A
It's one. The father is greater than I. He says the father is greater than all.
Speaker A
Yeah. But that was a part of him. It's like it's like taking a part of your body, but that's still you.
Speaker A
So he's not really teaching you correctly then. Is that what you're saying? No, he's he's he's a thousand% correct because it says literally Hold on, hold on, hold on.
Speaker A
It says, okay, so I'm going to read this part. It says, Jesus didn't claim to be another prophet pointing people toward God. He said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except
Speaker A
through me. Then he gave his life for our sins and rose again. Christian Christianity says something spiritual happened at that cross. The barrier between sinful humanity and God was dealt with through Christ. So if Jesus were merely a prophet, why would access
Speaker A
to the father depend on him? Okay. Uh so Jesus says he is a prophet.
Speaker A
I I mean I don't know what you were just reading. Um but so Jesus says he is a prophet. Jesus says the father's greater than I. He says I can do nothing on my own. Right? All authority uh belongs to
Speaker A
the father. He did not come for his own glory before the glory of the father. Uh he point he actually does point you to the father. He says the father is the only true god. He teaches you to pray
Speaker A
only to the father. Okay. So first off the stuff came way after this isn't the Muslim. I'm just basing it off the Bible.
Speaker A
Basing it off the Bible. Yeah. He says in Jesus we're merely a prophet. Why would access to the father depend on him? Why would it depend on him? The only way we could get through we have to believe that he's access to God. Why?
Speaker A
The only way that we can get to Yes. Yes. Okay. Is we have to live our life accordingly through Christ Jesus.
Speaker A
And yeah, because he was the example and the mediator between man and God, but not God. Right. Paul says that we have one God who is the father and one mediator who is the human Jesus Christ.
Speaker A
He was an example. He came to the earth to be yeah an example. But that doesn't take away that he he is God though. He's God as as God.
Speaker A
But his example shows that he's not God. His example shows you how to get to God.
Speaker A
He's not he's not he's he's eternal. So he's not dead. He's he literally rose again and he went up. Like he's not like we as humans we we die for real. And but it's the only way we have eternal life
Speaker A
is through Christ Jesus. And that that's what it showed. When he died, he rose up. You know, he was the only one. He's eternal. He's literally eternal.
Speaker A
What happened before Jesus? God, man, we we don't we don't have we don't have the understanding. There's no there's no uh big bang or whatever the heck that that doesn't happen with the random the random stuff that it's God.
Speaker A
He created everything. He was he was the alpha, the omega, the everything, you know. So he he's he created Wait, it's not going to it's not going to make sense.
Speaker A
Okay, so Elijah, for example, right? Elijah didn't die at all. Right? Elijah, according to the Bible, he was risen up in a heavenly ascension, body and soul, right? So is he eternal? Is he God?
Speaker A
No, he's not God. Nobody is God but the father, son, holy spirit. Okay. Well, Jesus doesn't say that.
Speaker A
Jesus says, uh, nobody's God except the father. Yes. And he's he's God. I don't you're not understanding. He's literally God as well.
Speaker A
Okay. But I'm asking you like why do you believe like where does he say that?
Speaker A
He like I know that that's what you guys believe. I I'm I'm aware of that. I want to know why you believe that because I right have read the Bible. I have studied the words of Christ even in the
Speaker A
the gospels, right? And I see that Jesus is not saying that he's God, but he is pointing to someone who is and that's the father.
Speaker A
So um okay so in Jesus okay can I just give you like a hypothetical yeah go ahead like say it's judgment day okay and Jesus is in front of you right okay and you're asking why you're not making it
Speaker A
into heaven and you say Lord Lord like we I did all this in your name right like you whatever okay and and Jesus turns you away and he says get away from me you workers of lawlessness I never
Speaker A
knew you right what are you going to say ain't nothing true if like you know that's that's God like I can't argue with him like I cannot argue okay different scenario what if Jesus asks you why did you worship me when I
Speaker A
told you that the only true God is the father just as an example what are you going to say wait you said for for he literally says you can't you can't get to you can't get to um God without going through Jesus.
Speaker A
Okay. And how does he show you to go through him? Through through prayer, through our livelihood, how we live our life, we have to live it out accordingly to the Bible Bible. Apply it everything based in our lives and has to show for it.
Speaker A
So, so Jesus in John 17:3, and I've quoted this a lot, but if if the entire Bible were to disappear from your mind, right, and there was only one thing you need to know, it would be this verse.
Speaker A
Because Jesus here, he's uh summarizing what it means to attain eternal life, right? This is what you need. So he says, "This is eternal life." He's talking to the father. This is eternal life that they may know you, the only
Speaker A
true God. And Jesus Christ whom you have sent. So to know the father is to know the only true God. And to know Jesus Christ is to know that he is the Messiah sent by God.
Speaker A
Where does he say that he is God? He's I feel like it's repetitive because I keep saying like he the father, the son, and the holy spirit like he's they're all one. They're literally it's one separate people. It's
Speaker A
not separate things. So So I guess what what she's arguing, right? She's she's arguing the trinity is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, right? So, I guess the the easiest way to steal manhood uh Miss Tina here's position uh for for you
Speaker A
maybe I can help you out here is that she's asking for specific evidence uh biblically that definitively proves that Jesus is divine specifically coming from him especially this pro like so what does Jesus do slash say that definitive
Speaker A
proves that he himself is divine uh in a manner that like can be proven like like in a way that's pro like does that make sense right he's the great teacher right he is the teacher Jesus says Don't call anyone
Speaker A
else teacher cuz you only have one teacher and he's talking about himself, right? Okay. So, where in his teachings does he teach you that he is God?
Speaker A
Uh he's he says he's of him. That's his that's his father. I believe he's of him. Sure. No problem.
Speaker A
God has many sons. God has many begotten sons in the in the Old Testament.
Speaker A
So when the son of God doesn't mean God. Okay. Uh what is it called? Agree to disagree. But um okay. So Jesus didn't say I'll show you a way to God. He said I am the way and no one comes to the father except
Speaker A
through me. That's not an order prophetic claim. He came down to He came literally down to get to our level and you know show it out.
Speaker A
Okay. But he's showing you that he's the way to the father. Yeah. Right. So So your goal is to get to the father.
Speaker A
It it it's all one. I keep saying that like it it's all one. It's literally I'll let you finish I want you to respond then we're going to close.
Speaker A
Yes. Okay. So yeah finish out your thought. I apologize. Who me or you you Oh okay. Um the final thought is you know just read your word honestly because like the the Muslim stuff didn't come till like centuries and centuries
Speaker A
later. So that like makes no sense whatsoever. How are you going to just believe a random thing that popped out of the blue? like hold on, I'm still speaking. So like centuries and centuries later is just crazy and
Speaker A
diabolical and then you just um uh and then you just go with the word or whatever is going on in there and like no it's the holy Bible is you got to read it front and back through and
Speaker A
through and uh and then it'll make sense you know you got to pray to God also to unveil the cloak invisible cloak on your eyes you know cuz there's there's a lot like and then you'll get more knowledge
Speaker A
you got to pray for more knowledge and understanding and um you know life is is crazy. We're going to die one day and we going to see I mean is wait am I allowed to say die?
Speaker A
No, it's fine. Yeah, live is preferable but it's fine just for past 10 minutes.
Speaker A
Um and you know it is what it is like like Yeah. Go ahead. All right, I'm going let you respond.
Speaker A
Here's what's gonna happen. you're going to give a brief closing thought on this topic and then we're going to take a brief break and uh reset here for a moment. So go ahead uh get your closing thought then we're going to take a few
Speaker A
minutes and I'm going to read some super chats while you take a break and then we're going to do something here. Go ahead.
Speaker A
Can booty mommy Instagram that's my Don't worry. We'll make sure it's posted everywhere. I promise. Go ahead.
Speaker A
Okay. Okay. So you said the Islamic stuff comes much later. You said that uh you know I just believe the word of the Islamic stuff but I haven't quoted any Islamic scripture. I haven't quoted any uh I I'm not even sure if you know
Speaker A
exactly what we believe. All I've been quoting was the Bible. All I've been wanting to stick with in uh was the Bible. The words of Christ according to the Bible, not according to my sources, according to your sources. So, I just
Speaker A
want to know where Jesus says that he is God according to your sources. And I don't think you're able to show that.
Speaker A
And genuinely, and I don't mean this offensively, but I don't think you actually believe it because the way that you are acting and the the things that you're saying and who you pray to, you I think that you're genuine. I think that
Speaker A
you're sincere. Um, and I think that you truly do want to follow Christ to the best of your ability. I can see that.
Speaker A
But, um, and I think that you're doing a good job by not praying to him and not actually worshiping him. But people have told you that he is God, right? And and so I think you're just reiterating that.
Speaker A
Just my opinion, but I haven't seen you um, show me where Jesus says that he's God or why you believe that he's God.
Speaker A
Um, everything in the scripture just points that the father is God and that he is the example and the way to God.
Speaker A
All right, thank you so much. We're gonna take a brief break here. I'm gonna read the super chats if y'all need to use your restroom. Hey, but Miss Tina, if you don't mind.
Speaker A
Um, you can use restroom. We do that quick, but then Omar and that's over here. Omar and them are gonna talk outside about something here for the second half.
Speaker A
Sure. Perfect. All right, chat. Let me read these super chats here. Um uh real quick, imagine my shock of 1455 for $5. They have taken the rabbis and monks as Lord's Messiah Allah and also the Messiah, the Quran says Jesus,
Speaker A
Christ is God. Sora alaba chapter 9 verse 31. Thank you for that. That's it. All right. Appreciate. We're going to take a brief break. All right, chat. So, what's about to happen here, I think, in the second half. I I don't
Speaker A
know. I I don't know what's exactly happening me, but they're excited. I'm going to take a brief Russian break. If you want to play the threeinut video live Jesus is a mythological figure.
Speaker A
No, there's over 25,000 manuscripts. Revelation 22:13 Jesus identifies himself as I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Speaker A
You're describing yourself in the form of a woman here regarding the weight like the gospel of Thomas. Why isn't that in there? Because it was written Thomas was dead.
Speaker A
He doesn't. It's going to be AI robots with no conscience kill these people down like pigs. But being an adult means paying for your kids. Even if you don't have sole custody, even if you don't have partial custody,
Speaker A
you're going to get humiliated even more just like your prophet did. I'm going to humiliate your religion. I'm going humiliate your God and your prophet right now again. So, let's continue to talk.
Speaker A
Look, you were born a man. Yes. You know how much money I had to spend to look like this to be accepted by society? Over 100 grand.
Speaker A
If that's hair, what's this? Uglier hair. No, it's not ugly hair. What you have is probably the same thing a dog has. cuz you I struggle to see how you can't accept that Joseph Smith is a true prophet.
Speaker A
You be willing to spend $50,000 that there's some scientists that said human beings went one step. It was fish and then gave birth to homo sapiens. That is what planet with genetic testing we could see like the whole family tree of all life on
Speaker A
earth can be traced through genetic testing. You cannot follow the Quran in and of itself by itself. For example, there's more proof on the existence of Jesus than there's proof on the history of Julius Caesar. The reason why you
Speaker A
made Jesus white cuz y'all would never serve a black king. Yeah, but dogs can do that.
Speaker A
Dogs make civilizations. Well, they give birth, too. Like, it's not that big of a deal.
Speaker A
Jesus died. If he died in a real and not idiosyncratic way, therefore, Jesus not died because God. So, Jesus here, as you just admitted, unqualified, claims to be the first and the last. their hospitals, their schools, their moss, their
Speaker A
churches, the graveyards, their roads. Some of them have been hit during the route to those.
Speaker A
You just made yourself a laughing stock in front of everybody. At first, hold on just one second. At first, your your criteria was a commandment that you don't think is good or godlike. But then, is it possible that God is okay with you
Speaker A
marrying, let's say, a three-year-old? Stop the personal attacks. Don't ask me about why I don't have kids.
Speaker A
Look at you, you savage man. Skinny arms out of safety. Yeah, you are people of the Bible that you have conceded and and quoted actually said, "Yes, we saw the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam." I can outdell you. I can out you. This guy needs
Speaker A
But do you realize I'm not ducking? I'm sitting there talking to him. I'm spinning around. That has nothing to do with the topic. It has everything to do with the top.
Speaker A
You just lied. You said they're on a landline. The astronauts weren't on the land.
Speaker A
Yeah, I want to I want to go on the same topic again because you said so many things that I know.
Speaker A
All righty. What's going on everyone? I am not Sean Kelly, nor am I Mr. Gibbs.
Speaker A
I'm not from Texas, nor am I half Asian. I'm just holding it down until their friends can come back from their bathroom break. Everyone seems to be taking photos now. They're all uh socializing. If you know any of these
Speaker A
girls, uh please follow them online. They will drop their handles when they're up on the mic.
Speaker A
Yes. Um I'm not a professional commentary professionalist of any profession with any professionalism. So, I can't really ask you anything serious. Uh but hey, why don't we ask some uh some more light-hearted debate questions? For example, uh are frogs even real? Like I
Speaker A
think they're just turtles. I think they're turtles that like they took the shell off or maybe another turtle robbed them or something.
Speaker A
I don't think it I don't know. That would be my debate topic. I've never seen a a turtle without its shell. So, I'm just assuming those are all frogs.
Speaker A
According to Alex Jones, uh there is no moon. That's just the back of the sun.
Speaker A
You fools. You're doing great. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. We're doing awesome. Uh if you guys have some super chats, you guys have some super awesome questions, some super awesome statements to state upon our uh statesmanships. Uh please submit them.
Speaker A
We'll be reading them out out loud for our candidates. Uh once again, they're all in a bathroom break right now. Uh they're in a hot room with a broken AC and they're doing their very best today.
Speaker A
Uh, let me see if we can go over some of the super chats that we already read because we're very grateful to everyone that's donated money to keep the show alive and to keep our cats fed. Once again, Mr.
Speaker A
Gibbs has two cats and we need to keep those those two kitties alive. Give me a second. I got to All right, this one super chat from Imagine My Shako 1455. They said they have taken their rabbis and their monks
Speaker A
as lords besides Allah and also the Messiah. The Quran says Jesus is God. And then there's some words that I don't know that I don't understand. They should really get a smarter guy to read these things than me. I'm borderline
Speaker A
illiterate. Uh, next super chat. Jesus literally in all caps said that he is not quote not the true God, unquote.
Speaker A
Also, LOL, ask and ye shall receive. I don't think LOL was in the Bible, but I could be wrong about that. I am an idiot.
Speaker A
All right, next super chat. All right, I'm back. Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus is the son of God?
Speaker A
Let me take it. He's doing pretty good. Yeah, you're doing fantastic. I appreciate it. I'm g back now, guys.
Speaker A
Hope okay. We want to thank him for for stepping in. He's a fantastic uh sub in for me. We are cooking up something special for the second half. Um I think here we got we got some guests in the
Speaker A
studio. One of the cool things about live broadcast is a lot of times we have new people up here uh and that are going to challenge people on all sorts of stuff. So uh there Seaman and Omar our
Speaker A
wonderful religious moderator is um cooking up something right now for special for y'all chat. So if you give me just a brief moment here we're going to get them in here and uh we're going to continue this riveting stuff here uh
Speaker A
along these religious debates. Thank you so much. Mr. Gibbs, what are the name of your two cats?
Speaker A
Oh, I I have I have two cats. One's Garfield and he looks like Garfield. And the other one is Boba Cat. Like Boba Fett, but Boba Cat. And then Oh, so sad story. This hobo died that in front of
Speaker A
my neighborhood recently. Oh no. Yeah. And uh his dog appeared in my my front yard. So I decided I took that one in recently and we've been taking care of him. But I thought you adopted him.
Speaker A
Yeah. There was lots of tricks. I was pleasantly surprised, you know. It's always nice.
Speaker A
Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So we need all the monies for my many many animals and many many cows or we'll have to eat the cat food ourselves.
Speaker A
Yeah. Cats. I'll have to eat the cats, I guess. I don't know. It's up to you. You decide the fate of these cats. It all depends on how many super chats you guys send in.
Speaker A
Please have mercy. That's right. That's right. I would never eat my cat. Yeah. Don't make Don't make Sean Kelly's show into this abomination. All you have to do is just donate money to us and we'll keep it kosher.
Speaker A
This will go from outnumbered to feel factor, brothers and sisters. Yeah. Uh so feeding them all b beef today in honor of the cows. There you go. That's right. Buy Texas beef. That's what we need more of. You want to help
Speaker A
America, you buy Texas beef. Don't buy for me. Appreciate that. Miss Tina's returned here. Miss Tina, how are you doing today? Are you enjoying the debate so far, Miss Tina?
Speaker A
Yeah, it's good. It's just a discussion. Yes. Good, good, good, good. I believe we're cooking up something over there on the other side for you right now. Um, Gibbs, you're from Texas, right?
Speaker A
I am from Texas. I heard something along the lines of there is a law in Texas where you legally cannot defame beef like the name of it like its reputation.
Speaker A
Is this is or or an image, you know, like a billboard or something? Well, I don't know about that. I don't think we treat the uh the the sacred cow like uh some people treat the sacred prophet. I've never heard of that.
Speaker A
However, you can still um get uh you know the old rope treatment for stealing cattle in Texas allegedly. Oh, really?
Speaker A
It's on the books, but I don't think they've prosecuted that in, you know, 50, 60, 100 years.
Speaker A
Uh, also for stealing horses because if you lost a you had your horse stole in Texas, uh, out in the middle of nowhere, it was basically a death sentence.
Speaker A
That's insane. Yeah. And everything's bigger in Texas, too. So, that's a big horse to steal.
Speaker A
That's right. That's right. Actually, the horses are usually smaller in Texas because, uh, it's the harsher land. But, uh, it's funny story, you know, but everything else, we're bigger in spirit.
Speaker A
Um, I heard that a cowboy hat's size also determines their status, too. Like a smaller cowboy hat means a bigger bigger honcho versus a big hat. It's like that's a new cowboy. Yeah.
Speaker A
Also, I'm Latino. So, if you know anything about Latinos, the bigger the boot, the more it curls, the higher up on the pecking order you are.
Speaker A
Unfortunately, I'm very low on the Latino pecking order. I don't have very much curl in the boot. That's a joke for any Tahhanos that if there are any here in chat, they're going to get that one from South Texas. Um,
Speaker A
anybody else is gonna have no idea what I'm talking about, but that's okay. Um, yeah, it's uh it's been good stuff. Uh, yeah, we've had some a fun interesting chat here so far today. I uh I have enjoyed it. I uh I tell you what, um the
Speaker A
sand here in in uh people you think Texas is a desert, it's very humid where I live. The sand here has had me coughing up stuff for the past like week and a half that I've been here. It's
Speaker A
been real interesting. Gibbs is a full-on vape at this point. He's just puffing out that smoke. It's just It's just Vegas rust.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what they say when I'm debating, too. I just be puffing out that spoke because I talk too fast.
Speaker A
Well, there was one person that was having struggle was struggling to keep up with how fast you could talk. I don't really think you talk that fast.
Speaker A
Yeah, it's the accent plus the I think it's the Yeah, I think it's If you're not used to the the Texas the Texas accent, d I saw somebody in chat was mad at me, but don't worry, he had a to name, so he
Speaker A
got banned. He was I don't like that guy. Well, hey, that too bad your name breaks the rules. Hey, if you don't like it, donate some money. I don't know how that helps you, but it helps us.
Speaker A
You won't you won't insult me if you don't like me. It's okay. I have a thick skin. Honestly, if you can find someone to moderate better and cheaper than me, yeah, I'm sure Sean will hire you. I don't want Hey, you might find somebody
Speaker A
cheaper and you might be able to find somebody better, but you ain't going to find both, you know.
Speaker A
And what why would we want anyone better, you know? I saw the chat naming you uh Daddy Gibbs in one of the debates previously.
Speaker A
That's funny. I do go by papa Papa games on some of the stuff. Yeah. But it's more like a grandfather. Like come come join me and we'll take you out of the bomber.
Speaker A
Like a like a Santa Claus. Yeah. Yeah. Like a Santa Claus. But but more redneck.
Speaker A
But more redneck. More redneck. Yeah. What's What's under the tree this year? Squirrels. Yeah. Squirrels. Taxiderer squirrel. And then you did a tax rattlesnake.
Speaker A
No, I I did make some rattlesnake hatbands recently. And one of my some rattlesnake what hatbands got the like they got the snake and it's like on the front. It's pretty cool. I was going to bring one here, but
Speaker A
That's sick. Yeah. Then I start then I started thinking about how I was going to take it through TSA because they stole the venom pouches in them and I was like a Yeah. And if I put it through the like little thing and they
Speaker A
actually touch the fang, you know, that's no good. Um Yeah. But yeah, because the dry venom can mess you up pretty good. Sorry, Chad. We're just filling time for a moment here while we wait for the uh the
Speaker A
people to come back in here in a moment. Uh we're just having a brief bathroom break. I apologize. Then we'll get back to our debate with Miss Tina here. She's been a wonderful sport fighting all these people over Islam Christianity.
Speaker A
And we we want to thank all the people that came out here today to do the Sean Kelly show. I know she travel far. I know one girl said she came from all the way from India. That was very uh very
Speaker A
nice of her to fly that far. I appreciate that. Uh so yeah, we appreciate all the people traveling out here to do these debates for the theological fisty cuffs.
Speaker A
Uh I need you to ask Shaman see what we're waiting on. That's that's the question, Bradley. That's a good question. We should be starting here momentarily. It We're getting shaman in here.
Speaker A
Uh, no. Shaman knows what we're doing. Get shaman. I'm I'm just I'm just the the happy little monkey getting told what to do today. That's what I'm That's what I am today. I'm here to do I'm here to do as I'm told.
Speaker A
I don't think you guys understand. This is what Gibbs is wearing. The AC is broken today.
Speaker A
It is hot. It's It is hot in this studio today in Vegas. All right. So, is that the plan? And she's aware of the plan.
Speaker A
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, of course. All right. Cool. So, it looks like Yeah, it's no surprise.
Speaker A
Okay, cool. So, it looks like we're going to be changing up the next topic.
Speaker A
We have a special guest. Uh, I don't know his name. Uh, but he I'm sure he's about to tell us. And we're going to be changing props here. Uh, and we're going to be doing some a little bit of um I
Speaker A
think um how do I put this? Uh, Muslim Muslim a little bit discussion, right?
Speaker A
Is that a correct way to put Are you Is Quran only? Okay, cool. So, we have the equivalent for the Christians of a red letter Christian versus a non- redletter Christian in a discussion here. So, I uh who wants to present the prompt?
Speaker A
Um I can go. Yeah, if you want to present your prompt and we'll start you with the affirmative and I'll let her have the the last word on the negative at the end. But go ahead, start us off. Do do introduce the
Speaker A
prompt and then introduce the your take on it. All right. So, my name is Husam Speaker.
Speaker A
I follow the Quran alone. I reject all the hadiths. Um and one of the main reasons is because in the Quran many times like chapter 45 verse 6 it says in Arabic in English it's these are God's revelations that we recite to you in
Speaker A
truth. So when which hadith after God and his revelations will you believe in? So my question for Tina do you believe in a hadith after the Quran?
Speaker A
Yeah. I believe that the hadith is the prophet explaining the Quran. But so you believe that the Quran is sufficient, right?
Speaker A
Yes. And it's fully the words of Allah. Yes. And um there's nothing uh missing or no anything like that. Okay. What about verses uh 9128 and 129?
Speaker A
Yeah. That's not part of the revelation. Okay. So you don't believe in the full Quran? Yeah, I do believe in the full Quran but not verses 128 and 129.
Speaker A
Talking about the actual revelation in chapter 9. What makes you think those are not the actual revelation? I'm sorry. Uh many reasons. For one, in verse 128, it calls the messenger, which is one of God's names that's used over and over
Speaker A
throughout the Quran. It calls the Quran the Mahan. That's one of God's names. Superseding the Quran is the superseding authority.
Speaker A
Wonderful. That's the name of Allah. No, but the Quran is the word of God, right?
Speaker A
Okay. And the messenger is the messenger of Allah. He's not the he's not the most uh most kind, most merciful.
Speaker A
Okay. The Quran calls MS um which verse are you referring to? uh the one where he's um uh uh throwing his staff and Moses gets uh scared and I'm sorry and uh Allah says uh do not fear that's the name of Allah
Speaker A
chapter I think you're talking about chapter 20 but for one before we continue the prompt is um regarding the hadith we're not talking about code 19 and then Right. Right. But I want to know where you stand with that first.
Speaker A
Well, the prompt is hadith. I do. Yeah. I do believe that obviously there's textual corruption, right? But it doesn't mean the the word of God is corrupted. The Quran says that the the Quran is preserved with God and is the
Speaker A
master tablet. Same way. So what makes you think that in the master tablet there's not verses 128 and 129?
Speaker A
Because for one, I'm talking about the linguistics with Muhammad, the messenger supposedly being given one of God's names. And then two, was also given God's name. The Quran was given God's name. Let go and I'll go back to you.
Speaker A
Yeah. So many people are given the names of God because these words can be used for others, but you're not presenting a verse.
Speaker A
Okay. And also, if you want to talk about believing in the full Quran, which uh Quran do you believe in? Cuz you're aware there's 30 different versions.
Speaker A
Hold on. Let's just see where you stand first and then we'll I'm telling you where where I stand.
Speaker A
There's the the Alas, there's many different Quran versions. So, which which one do you believe in?
Speaker A
We'll see. Surah Ta verse 46. 46. Oh, wait. No, no, not 46. I'm sorry. Um, and while they're while they're looking that up, guys, make sure you get your super chats in. Anything over $5. I will we will have Ben and read as long as
Speaker A
it's not disrespectful. Uh, go on. Go. 67 and 68 of chapter 20 67 says so Moses concealed fear within himself do not fear it is certainly you who will prevail what's the word means yeah the the word just means one who prevails but
Speaker A
it doesn't it does no it doesn't it does no it doesn't or one who who will be superior or prevail yeah allah means the highest doesn't mean the highest yes it does you speak Arabic okay So Allah doesn't mean high.
Speaker A
It depends on the context. Okay. What's the what's the context of this? The context.
Speaker A
Is it is it the name of Allah? Is only Allah the highest. What's the context? Highest can also can also mean one who will prevail. It doesn't mean highest. He's not calling.
Speaker A
Okay. What does mean? So the title that's given in 128 is most compassionate, most kind, most merciful.
Speaker A
Oh, can somebody be kind and merciful? Not the most kind and merciful. Yeah. So, right just means merc um I'm talking about the full title.
Speaker A
Yeah. So, that part of that title means kind, gentle, right? Means merciful. Well, there's a difference between and what's the difference?
Speaker A
The Quran makes a distinction. I think it's in chapter 57, I think, when it says the discip the followers of Jesus where they and it doesn't say it in the same way. So, there's a distinction.
Speaker A
Yeah. The Quran is the words because it's talking about something else. It's it's Yeah. It's just a different grammar.
Speaker A
Why Why wouldn't they just be called? Yeah. Because it says that Allah granted them granted their hearts gentleness and mercy. That's that's a completely different sentence. No, but there's a distinction.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Let me try. Okay. But are they not and they're not the most kind and merciful, but they are sure they they're kind.
Speaker A
Okay. Wonderful. Okay. Is Mus Alam Allah? He's not the in the same way that Allah is. Obviously not.
Speaker A
Obviously not. Okay. So is Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam is in the same way that Allah is.
Speaker A
He's not in any specific most kind, most merciful. He's not the most kind or the most merciful.
Speaker A
Okay. So you're saying, wait, are you saying Muhammad is the most kind, most merciful?
Speaker A
It doesn't say most. It said the Arabic means. Okay. So go to chapter uh 917.
Speaker A
It calls God. What's the word for most in Arabic? Most um one of the general words would be is that in the verse?
Speaker A
It's not in the verse specifically. You're asking about Arabic. Yeah, but the verse is in Arabic.
Speaker A
No, but obviously the Arabic it's not it's not going to have all the Arabic words. It can use different words for the same meaning.
Speaker A
Mhm. Okay. Just because there's there's an Arabic word for something doesn't mean the Quran has to have that word. You think the Quran has Okay. So, what makes you think that Allah is saying the prophet is the most
Speaker A
gentle or the most kind and the most merciful in the same way that he is?
Speaker A
He's not. I don't believe what makes you think that that verse is saying that the verse because it doesn't qualify.
Speaker A
Hold on. Pull it up. But by the way, um while I pull up, answer my question from earlier. Which version of the Quran do you believe in?
Speaker A
Uh first of all, I don't think you even believe in the Quran. I do. I do.
Speaker A
Okay. Well, then you have to tell me about verse 128 to 129. Yeah. Answer what you just said and then go to your question. Go ahead.
Speaker A
Let me answer and then we're going to go 128. Um I'm just loading it up.
Speaker A
Okay. It says, okay, so this is even worse for you. It says, so means for for the believers, he's most kind, most merciful. In the Quran, the prophet was commanded to say over and over again.
Speaker A
So it doesn't say the Okay. So Okay. Okay. Can I can I finish what I was saying?
Speaker A
Sure. Okay. So many times over and over in the Quran, the prophet was commanded to say he has no power to to benefit himself or or others.
Speaker A
Mhm. So how is he most merciful to the believers? That would mean that because you you would count yourself as a believer, right? Is Muhammad currently merciful to you? Obviously not.
Speaker A
He is a mercy. He's a mercy sent to all world. He was sent as a mercy. It's like if I give you a water and I say I'm giving you the water as a mercy. What's the source of mercy? Me or the water?
Speaker A
Does it say he's the source of mercy or he's merciful? How do you forget? Okay, hold on. Pretend it's not about the go ahead.
Speaker A
Okay, let's pretend it's not about the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Let's pretend this is just a random conversation in Arabic. How do you say that um this person over here is merciful?
Speaker A
I would say um I would say um oh this is this is Rahma. He's Rahma.
Speaker A
I never said he is Rahma. I said this. So yeah, this is mercy. But God what? I said how do you say that he's merciful?
Speaker A
How do you say is merciful? You're not right now. You're doing a hypothetical. I'm not doing what ifs. I'm I'm going with I'm asking you in Arabic. How do you say somebody is hypothetical? I mean, somebody is merciful.
Speaker A
I would just say to um Well, you kind of got to be careful with with how you say it cuz you don't want to attribute with gods.
Speaker A
Be as careful as you want. How do you say it? Okay. Just say, I mean, I don't speak Arabic, so give me some mercy.
Speaker A
Bro, show show some mercy. I said, how do you say he is merciful? Not I'm not saying you're asking him for mercy. How do you say he is merciful?
Speaker A
You just say no, that means he has mer. Okay. So, yeah. Does that if I say someone has mercy, does that mean that one of their attributes is merciful? At least to a small extent again that's not what I
Speaker A
asked you though. If I want I answer the question. No, I want you to say that he's merciful.
Speaker A
How would I say I would I would just say, oh, okay. So, you would say he's beautiful. How would you say that he's kind and gentle? I would say I wouldn't say I would say it's two different things. The words are very clear and
Speaker A
detailed. Okay. Do you understand Arabic grammar? Yes. No, my question for you. Okay. What's the difference? What's the difference? What makes that one worse?
Speaker A
Cuz it's already known that is is a title used only for God. Means most kind merciful.
Speaker A
No, it doesn't. The means most. Okay. Do you disagree with your translators? I'm asking you does mean most would. Yeah. The title note it means most kind, most merciful. It's already established.
Speaker A
Okay. What does make a distinction? So you don't know Arabic grammar. You don't I don't know Arabic.
Speaker A
No. So who is Issak the same thing? Huh? Is Mskin and Masak the same thing?
Speaker A
Mskin and Masak is singular. Messen is plural. Okay. So if I say feed a mskin or feed masak you agree that's two different things right?
Speaker A
Yeah. There's one. So in the Huff's version of the Quran 2184 it says feed.
Speaker A
So you're running. So you're running. Okay. So you're running. Okay. Wonderful. Yeah. Well, we're not going to get if you're going to reject what I thought.
Speaker A
So, if you're going to reject two verses of the Quran, I need you to give me a good reason.
Speaker A
Okay. For one, well, they were never part of the Quran. Chapter nine. Okay. So, chapter 9 is the only chapter in the whole Quran that starts um that that's missing God's signature.
Speaker A
So, it shows that God flagged the chapter for us. Can Can you tell me?
Speaker A
According to who? Huh? According to Can you tell me why chapter 9 is missing the signature?
Speaker A
Yeah, I can. I can. Okay. But can can you tell me why it's missing the signature? I I have hadith. I I have sources to tell me that. Yeah.
Speaker A
Okay. So, you tell me why it's missing that. Yeah. Because God is flagging a force a short.
Speaker A
And it's not missing a chapter. It's missing. I meant it's missing God's sign. The chapter is missing God's signature.
Speaker A
That's what I said. The chapter is missing God's signature. No, it's missing the name.
Speaker A
It's God's signature, right? Which is God's signature? No, not necessarily. I don't know what why you're using that term, but again signed off.
Speaker A
Okay, wonderful. Why is this one missing? Because there was corruption with the with the chapter according to it was tampered according chapter 9 128 129 according to who said that there should be there it's in it's God's signature it's in
Speaker A
every single chapter why is this one chapter specifically missing it okay so so you're you're the author wait no no I'm not the author I'm asking you a question okay so I know why it's not there because the prophet sallallahu alaihi
Speaker A
wasallam tells us the um uh the scholars tell us right the companions the scholars scholars.
Speaker A
Okay. So, why do you accept the Sunni scholars but you reject the Christian scholars? The scholars are they're not God. You can't pick and choose with scholarship.
Speaker A
I'm sorry. How do your scholars on what authority do you do you accept your scholars and reject the Shia scholars, the Black Nation of Islam scholars, the Christian scholars, the Jewish scholars, Quran only scholars? Why specifically these scholars?
Speaker A
Yeah. So, first of all, when it comes to the Quran, I'm going to go with those who study and know the Quran, right? and who get their get their information from the hadith the sunnah and okay so you're
Speaker A
running by the way and by the way I'm pretty adamant I'm not going to continue this conversation until you give me a good reason why verse 128 and 129 are not because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's not
Speaker A
so okay so what is your authority what do you mean what's my authority authority I ask you first what's your authority for the scholars you got to answer me I will tell you my authority is the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam yes
Speaker A
so I want to know your authority what makes you confident that there should be there and what makes you confident that 128 and 129 should not be there for one I already answered about 928 91 you know actually Islamic okay let me
Speaker A
give you another answer you know Islamic history they they rejected those two verses who according I'll show you so so you have a scholar outside of the Quran yeah it's not a scholar I'm showing you according to your sources Islamic
Speaker A
history they they rejected the two verses okay show according to you I'm not saying I believe it I'm saying according to your authority according to your hadith is that why verses it's not okay then tell me why But you got to
Speaker A
deal with it. I already told you. I will deal with it. I will. But once you tell me and for one, okay, let me let me give you another answer, too.
Speaker A
Is it just your feelings? Do you just feel like you don't feelings or is it because somebody told you?
Speaker A
It's not cuz somebody told me. What is your substantive argument? Let's go to your substantive argument. Go ahead.
Speaker A
My subset of argument. Yeah. Like she said, she said her appeal to her authority. What is your appeal to your authority?
Speaker A
Yeah. So the Quran is proven uh through the ma mathematical miracle of code 19.
Speaker A
It's perfectly structured and those two verses break the code. They they break the code. So yeah, it's a supernatural coding. It's like an error correction code uh in the Quran.
Speaker A
So if you if you add a verse or take away a verse or a letter or or a word, it disrupts the entire code.
Speaker A
That's that's the Quranic. Those verses definitely they they disrupt absolutely the 19. Yeah. Yes. When you without the two verses, there are six different words including God's name that go down as multiples of 19. Is that a coincidence?
Speaker A
Okay. So So your authority is the number 19. It's a miracle of the Quran in chapter 74 30-31. It says over is 19. The next verse says that God has made it a number. Um the number has five specific
Speaker A
functions to test you. Yeah. Huh? To test you. Well, five things. That's the first one.
Speaker A
Two is to show the Jews and the Christians that this is divine scripture. Three is increasing the faithful in uh with faith. Four is removing all traces of doubts from the hearts of the Jews, Christians as well those who believe. And five is to expose
Speaker A
the hypocrites and people harbor sickness in their hearts. Allahbar. Okay. So you're the hypocrite with sickness in your heart. You guys removed two verses of Allah.
Speaker A
They're not God. Prove they're God's verses. Prove it. Yeah. So, we do have evidence that they're God's verses through oral transmission.
Speaker A
Oral transmission. Is the hadith? Yeah. Through the manuscript. Through the Okay. So, when the Quran says, "Whichith after God and his revelations will you believe in?" Certainly, it's not asith.
Speaker A
Did I mention in Did I mention once? I I don't think so. Exactly. Uh, I'm not mentioning the shed. So, oh, so you came up with code 19 on your own?
Speaker A
No, it's it's in the Quran. It's God's miracle. I didn't come up with it. It's God's miracle.
Speaker A
Okay. And and you calculated it then? I did do the calculations. Yeah. Let me ask this. So, the code 19 thing is this. This is your code.
Speaker A
No, it's the Quranic code. No, it is. Okay. So, you don't you're not recognizing this code 19 thing.
Speaker A
Okay. To me, it sounds like the Da Vinci code. Yeah. Okay. Do you explain why it's not that?
Speaker A
Okay. Do you hear the Quran's coded I'm going to show you how the Quran's coded by 19? For one, the amount of chapters is 114, which is a multiple of 19.
Speaker A
What's the probability of that? Wow. What's the probability? Wow. What's the probability? You know what else 114 is a multiple of Okay, but I'm going to show you how all of them are are with 19. Do the do the
Speaker A
same thing with any other number. I'm doing more than just them chapters. I'm going to show you everything.
Speaker A
I did do the code 19 thing. And the thing is it didn't work because of chapters 128 to 129.
Speaker A
Yeah. That shows they're not supposed to be in the Quran. Yeah. They're not part of the reolution, honestly. Okay. So, so you're honest.
Speaker A
I just Hold on. I I'm real confused about what the that like Okay, maybe it's cuz I'm a lay person, but like you know, so you know, we've all seen the movie 42 or whatever with Jim Carrey or
Speaker A
whatever that movie is or 28 or what like where you seeing the number and everything. How is this not that? Like I like explain to me how this isn't like a Gary the number guy numerology like hey I'm seeing 11-11 at 3 in the morning
Speaker A
kind of thing. What is what is this? I I need to explain. I got you. So 1400 years ago during the prophet Muhammad's time they had no calculators they had no technology they they had no advanced calculating tools
Speaker A
and with code 19 a lot of the counterparts of it go up to numbers in thousands so this shows that no no superhuman or this is super human no human prime numbers uh not not just prime okay what
Speaker A
so here let me let me show you what's the probability I'm going go back to my question what's the probability that I'll do verses the first verse has 19 letters and the number of chapters is 114. What's the probability?
Speaker A
What's the probability? It's going to get lower the more the more I go. Yeah, we're going to do maths. You piece paper.
Speaker A
Okay. Show me on the paper. I I cuz I I think maybe I'm showing you the Well, I'm showing you in the Quran.
Speaker A
Okay, that works too, but do the calculation. Yeah, I'm going to see the calculation.
Speaker A
Okay. So, easy. Um 114. I'm a numbers guy. I understand number divided by 19 is six, right?
Speaker A
Mhm. Wait, 19. Yeah. 19 * 6 is 114. And then bismillah is 19 letters Arabic.
Speaker A
What's the probability of those? Wow. You want me to go one by one? You want me to show everything?
Speaker A
Yeah. Show us the formula. Okay. Well, 114 divided by 19. This is the number of chapters divided by 19, which is what the Quran's quoted by is six. Right.
Speaker A
Right. I'm I'm waiting for the formula. Okay. I'm I'm starting. Yeah. So, what's what's the probability?
Speaker A
I don't know, man. It's a miracle, bro. No, I'm serious. What's What's the probability the probability of 114 / 19 equaling six?
Speaker A
That's a multiple of 19. That's the point. I'm not talking about the six. I'm talking about how it's a multiple of 19.
Speaker A
What's a multiple? A multiple. What do you mean what's a multiple? What's a multiple?
Speaker A
A number that goes into something. Oh, okay. Fully. Yeah. Oh, wonderful. So, does any is anything else a multiple of 114?
Speaker A
I'm talking about the the chapter the I'm not talking about just one thing. I'm talking about the chapter. the the verses, all of it, the titles, the names, everything is quoted by 19 except for 128 and 129. Yeah,
Speaker A
they're not part of the Quran. That's what you're going to prove. Go ahead and prove it. Let's show us I the things you're saying I I I Okay, maybe it's cuz I'm stupid. We could go with that. But uh I I I don't think I'm
Speaker A
stupid. I have multiple doctorates. So, um this sounds just like Hitchhiker's Guide of the Galaxy, the number 42. It's just a reoccurring. I don't like more than that.
Speaker A
Okay. Yeah, but you're not really doing a very good job. No offense. would like to come in for this prompt. I came in for Quran versus hadith, right?
Speaker A
Yeah, but you're talking Well, you're the one who brought up code 19, not here, but you're saying is the secret of God, Jesus, and the universe.
Speaker A
She's the one that brought up the two verses uh controversy. Yeah. Yeah. Because you want to talk about the Quran excluded because of a of a of a hadith is what's in question here.
Speaker A
But the thing is, you're completely diverting. You didn't let me get So, if you're going to represent the Quran, I want to know you I'm doing I'm doing anti-hadith.
Speaker A
Yeah. You're I want to know why reject the Quran. Yeah, but this is your point. Your point is this code 19 somehow disproves these two verses which are there. Now listen, I'm not a Quran scholar. However, here leave those two verses in. Leave
Speaker A
Leave leave the two verses in that your code 19 thing. No, no, because I'm not here to debate about code. I'm debating anti-hith.
Speaker A
Okay. Yeah. So, even let's say hypothetically you want to get rid of code 19, right?
Speaker A
That my argument still says the hadith is fake. Wonderful. Okay. And I would love to talk about that. But you follow a hadith as well.
Speaker A
I don't. Yes, you do. Show me. Show me. You're about to write it down.
Speaker A
What do you mean? I'm going to write it down. How? I follow hadith. Yes.
Speaker A
What do you mean? Yeah. Is it not the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam? It's not from the prophet. No. Bkari is not a prophet.
Speaker A
I didn't. You said the hadith is from the prophet. The hadith is from Bkari. So, do you believe that Bkari is a prophet?
Speaker A
The hadith is not from Bkari. It is. What does that mean? Bkari is the one who brought those hadith. He's the one who compiled them.
Speaker A
Oh, he compiled them. So, that means that they're from him. Yeah. Um moderator, sure. If if I if I compile something and I give it to you and I say it's from other people, who's it from? Who's giving it to you? Bkari
Speaker A
or the supposed other people? Uh I I guess you would be the one giving it to them.
Speaker A
Thank you. Oh, okay. Wonderful. From the other people, right? According to the one that's giving it to you.
Speaker A
Oh, wonderful. Who gave you the Quran? Who gave me the Quran? The FedEx driver.
Speaker A
Oh, okay. So, is is the Quran from the FedEx driver? No, he's the one that handed it to me.
Speaker A
What do you mean by who gave it? You mean who handed it to me?
Speaker A
If you mean give as in who? Who introduced you to the Quran? Oh, who introduced me to it?
Speaker A
It was It was given to me from the FedEx driver. I opened it and I read it.
Speaker A
Wait. So, okay. You mean who? When you say who who gave it to me, it obviously means who handed it to me, right?
Speaker A
Yeah. It was the FedEx driver came to my house and handed it to me. Said, "Here's your package." Okay. And who gave it to him?
Speaker A
Who gave it to him? I don't know. I didn't ask him. M but originally the the hadith came from from the the Quran came from the prophet from God to Gabriel to Muhammad and then how do you know?
Speaker A
Huh? How do you know? What do you mean? How do I know? That's what the Quran says.
Speaker A
Okay. Does the Quran say that 128 129? We're not talking about those. Leave the two verses in. My argument still stands.
Speaker A
Yeah. I want to know who your authority is. I want to know who your authority is. Cuz if you're going to claim to be Quran only 614 614 says the Quran is the only source of law.
Speaker A
Okay. Well, 128 and 129 has always been part of the Quran. Are we talking about Okay, leave them in there. Show how the hadith is true.
Speaker A
Leave them in there. Leave them in there. That's not my promise. Yeah. Oh, wonderful. But if you're going to act like the Quran is your authority, I want you to prove it. I want you to convince me.
Speaker A
Prove the Quran's from God. No, I want you to prove Yeah. Yeah. Prove that.
Speaker A
Oh, so you know, so guys, we got a Muslim here asking me how do you know the Quran's from God? So you as a Muslim debating all these Christians. Go ahead.
Speaker A
Yeah. You're here debating all these Christians on the Quran, but here you're asking another Muslim or another Quran, how do you know the Quran's from God?
Speaker A
You Christians see this? Yeah. I hope Yeah. I hope everyone's seeing this. Yeah. So, you're asking me? Yes.
Speaker A
You're asking me You're asking me how how do I know the Quran's from God, right?
Speaker A
Please. Okay. The word of God is sufficient, right? Sure. How do you do the word of God?
Speaker A
That's So, you're a Muslim. You don't believe the Quran's from God. I'm asking you.
Speaker A
So, you don't believe the Quran's from God, right? You're questioning the Quran. I want to know why you believe it.
Speaker A
It's not about why I believe. Okay. Cuz in the in the Quran, God says he's going to preserve the Quran.
Speaker A
Is that Is that not enough for you? Is the word of God circular reasoning?
Speaker A
So, Allah said he's going to preserve the Quran. Yes. Okay. Did Allah preserve the Quran?
Speaker A
Yes. Okay. Okay. So why is 128 129 in it? He preserved the Quran. If I Let me Let me show you something. If I add two pages.
Speaker A
No, no. I I don't want you to I want you to give you an example. You said that Allah says he's going to preserve the Quran. So you said that Allah did preserve the I want to know why.
Speaker A
I want to know why 128th and 129 are in the Quran. Which Quran? You can leave them in.
Speaker A
Which which version of the Quran did God preserve? The All of them. They all have 128 and 129.
Speaker A
All of them. Okay. So in HS and Do you dispute that? Huh? Do you dispute that they all have that the the different version? We're talking about the different versions. I want I agree that they they all have the again.
Speaker A
Stop running. I'm not running. You're running from the different Quran. No, you're running. You're running. You said that Allah You believe the words are Allah simply because Allah said so, right? Okay. No problem.
Speaker A
The word of God reasoning. No problem. Then you said that Allah said that he's going to preserve his Quran. I agree. Allahbar. Okay. Okay.
Speaker A
Then you said that Allah did preserve his Quran. Okay. So I'm And then you said 128 and 129 are a corruption in the Quran. So can you make that make sense?
Speaker A
That's textual corruption. According to who? According to Islam, according to your Islamic history, according to the to the linguistics and according to the theology issue with those two verses and according to Well, which version? Let's start with this. Which version of the Quran do you
Speaker A
believe in? The you said all 128 and 129. Oh my god. Okay, keep keep them in there. Fine.
Speaker A
129. I'm going grant that to you. Nope. I I need you to answer. Why are there two verses that shouldn't be there? You're the one in question right now. Which version of the Quran? Okay.
Speaker A
All the versions of the Quran, the all of them, they all have the two verses, right? Which version of the Quran do you do you believe in? The thes the and the what is that? Actually, you know what? I'm not going to let you run.
Speaker A
129 in my preserved Quran. All right. This the that's that's the text. God didn't say he's going to preserve the text. He said he's going to preserve the Quran.
Speaker A
Well, I I What does that mean? I'm sorry. Let me ask Let me ask a question. If I had two, you just said something to here. All right. So, you just asked her which version the Quran should there's different Quran versions. Yeah,
Speaker A
he's running. Yeah, I got that. Yeah. Okay. So, yes, I understand there's different Quran versions. Okay.
Speaker A
If they all have these vers these two specific verses that you keep mentioning, why does it matter which Quran she chooses if they all have those verses?
Speaker A
Because I have my own arguments on on why those two verses are not supposed to be in there. But that's not what's in question right now. The question is hadith or even seems like it's a little bit of a
Speaker A
question. It's a huge question. That's not the prompt. That's not the prompt. Well, well, we're here now. So, let's talk about that first and get back to I would really like you to give me a good explanation as to why those two
Speaker A
verses shouldn't be in there and then I will say, okay, yeah, you're the authority of the Quran. I'm authority.
Speaker A
Well, somebody has to be. Okay. It's either Okay. God. Yeah. All right. Well, Allah put 128 and 129 in there. Prove me wrong.
Speaker A
They disrupt the Quranic code. That's the code 19 is an error correction code does where does it just like so you keep saying this code 19 this is the problem I'm having with your argument right and maybe so maybe
Speaker A
you can like clear it up for me okay it seem I know you want to move on to the other portion of this debate how I started with however it doesn't it feels like we can't get past this because your
Speaker A
fundamental argument is based off of um the secrets to the universe code 19 thing that's not my fundamental argument against the hadith I don't need code 19 cuz I came in asking her the first thing I said is against the hadith You're
Speaker A
representing You're representing the Quran alone. I'm representing anti-hith. No, you're representing Quran alone. That's what you said. So I came in with anti-adith.
Speaker A
You said the Quran is sufficient. Mhm. You said the Quran is Leave the two verses in there. Leave the two verses in there.
Speaker A
So that's interesting actually. If you if you if you say the Quran is enough on its own like a red letter Christian like does with the Jesus words. I don't know any letter Christians and I've known a lot of them that take out any verses
Speaker A
from that Jesus said. Right. So when you're saying you Jesus didn't. Sure. I know. But that's with Christianity. So if you're the equivalent of that for Islam, right, where you only It's interesting to me that you're taking out two verses, then
Speaker A
you're saying simultaneously I I do the Quran alone. Like, can you explain the differentiation of why I'm confused? I'm not I'm not taking them out. They're not part of the original revelation.
Speaker A
I need you to I need you to prove that so that we can continue this conversation.
Speaker A
Okay. Disrupts Let's do code 19. It disrupts the Quranic code. Okay. And and why should we uh use code 19? Cuz in chapter 74 30-31 says that 19 is going to show the Jews and the Christians that this is divine
Speaker A
scripture. It's going to increase the faithful in faith. Um it's going to remove all traces of doubts from the hearts of the Jews, Christians as well as those.
Speaker A
Does it say it's also going to remove two verses from the Quran? No, because they were never part of the Quran. We're not removing anything. If I add two p hold on. If I add two pages to the Quran right now, does that mean the
Speaker A
Quran's corrupted? Yes or no? They're in every manuscript. They're in every oral two again. If I add two pages to the Quran right now, does that mean it's corrupted? The Quran's corrupted via two pages.
Speaker A
If you add two pages of text, yes. To what? A print. To the Quran. To the Quran. Yes.
Speaker A
What do you mean? What does Quran mean? If I take the physical text, the physical Quran and I add two pages to I say Jesus is God. Jesus is the son of God. He died for our sins. And then a
Speaker A
bunch of Christian theology. Does that mean the Quran's corrupted now or is the physical text that you're holding is corrupted?
Speaker A
What does the word Quran mean? Quran recitation. Okay. Wonderful. But the Quran qualifies. Oh, if the Quran ever since it was revealed or at least let's say from the very first century, right, which I have evidence for, not you.
Speaker A
Prove it. Uh, which which version? Which version? You just made a claim. I want you to prove it though. You made a claim. Prove your claim. Yeah.
Speaker A
Right. So, the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam said uh the Quran was revealed to him in seven. Okay.
Speaker A
You said that. Show me where in the Quran he says that. Show me in the Quran where the prophet says that.
Speaker A
Yeah. So, the prophet doesn't speak in the Quran. Didn't you just say the Quran is the words of Allah?
Speaker A
Yeah. It's it's the speech. It's the words of God's speech of the messenger. Corona 69:40 it says what does mean the speech.
Speaker A
Okay. And and speech. So if I'm if I'm reading right uh I have a dream he's reciting the Quran. Yeah. He's reciting it. He's not claiming the words cuz you know how God over and over in the Quran tells tells
Speaker A
the messenger say they ask you about this. Say like chapter 2 vers 219. Chapter 2 vers 222 when it says ask about menstruation say this. Or when they ask you about gambling say this.
Speaker A
Ask you about this. Say this. They ask you about this. say this over and over again. God is telling him what to say.
Speaker A
Correct. Wonderful. Okay. So, did he not say anything outside of that regarding uh the the religion? Um nothing nothing theological only like one time commands like when he told the people to face Jerusalem. That's a one time thing. It's not something for for
Speaker A
us. Did Allah say that he sent the messenger to teach the people? No. Which verse are you referring to?
Speaker A
Well, Chad, if you uh like this conversation, while they look this up, make sure you get your super chats in.
Speaker A
Yeah. Make sure um follow my social media, YouTube, Instagram, Tik Tok, Hussean Speaker. Yes. And I'm sure I'll tell you more about COVID 19 then.
Speaker A
COVID 19. COVID 19. Well, actually, did you know that? Yeah. There there's so many stuff like major world events that are associated with the number 19. Is that a coincidence?
Speaker A
Are like you know 911, right? 911. If you put on the calculator 911 2001, it's divisible by 19 twice. And there were two twin towers that were bombed.
Speaker A
Brother, what? Wait, what? I'm saying I'm just saying just that. I'm just saying. Hold on. Hold on.
Speaker A
Okay. I don't want What? I don't want to digress. No, I think we're going to talk about that. That's what the chat want to know about. What is What is I just mean I just said something. It's not pertinent to the CIA has entered the
Speaker A
chat discussion, but I'm saying that if you put on the calculator 911 2001, I got to be honest. I I wake up sometimes in the middle of the night and I see 222 and then I have to take a
Speaker A
And does that mean that that is the number of the dookie? No. Like what what are we talking about here?
Speaker A
No, that's not what I said. You're just smoking it. I I Yeah. You know, at this point I am a little bit uh confused. I I've asked you several times to explain this and you've not explained it. Like uh
Speaker A
I told you it's a supernatural coding system in the Quran. Yeah, but what does that mean? I need I'll show you. Everything is coded by the number 19 in the Quran. It's the denominator of the Quran.
Speaker A
Yeah. Okay. something said and then you said and I quote this is your quote to to us that this was a code that was supposed to make itself known to the Christians and the Jews says yeah okay well cool I I'm a Christian and I
Speaker A
have I have many many many moons of education on this right and so I ain't never heard of no code 19 ever in my entire life the Muslims are hiding it from you the Muslims have been hiding it from you
Speaker A
oh they're hiding it from you've been hiding code 19 from me the whole time you've been I'm going to show you how it's a thing in the Quran but we're trying to focus on this right now can you prove that The
Speaker A
well you brought up the September 11th being code 19. So I said it's divisible.
Speaker A
I mean I just said it's a thing. September 11th is 9 + 11 is 20.
Speaker A
You mentioned more that's 22. That doesn't hold on. You mentioned but what did I say about that? I said cuz you mentioned COVID 19. I was like yeah 19 actually connects to many major world events.
Speaker A
I just made a claim. I was trying to make a conversation or go further into that.
Speaker A
Well I didn't want to make that conversation either when you said you know 11 + 1 + 2 equals 21. Now it's I didn't say that. I didn't say that.
Speaker A
We're talking about the 911 thing. I said if you put on the calculator 911 2001, you can divide it by 19. It's divisible by 19 twice. There were two twin towers that were bombed.
Speaker A
What? Huh? I never I just made I'm not trying to bring in the discussion. I just added to your COVID 19 thing.
Speaker A
But let's continue. Okay. Yeah, let's continue. The debates were there. Yeah. Okay. So, the the question before we kind of got off topic, the question I asked you regarding the the the seven the Quran um these are these are all the Quran. Can
Speaker A
you prove that that the seven seven the recitations are all the Quran? They're all one.
Speaker A
What's an Huh? What's a recitation? Okay. What makes it what makes them distinct? Huh?
Speaker A
What makes them Okay, easy. So, in the huffs um it it says um if to food one to feed one poor person which is mskin and the w and same verse uh 2184 it says to feed me multiple poor people. That's different
Speaker A
law. Oh, so is it miskin or masak? Is it one person or plural? Cuz at the beginning you admitted that one is singular, one is plural.
Speaker A
So is that the same thing? Do we have a three in one trinity here in Islam?
Speaker A
Okay. How are they different? I'm sorry. Ms. You admitted earlier is singular. Mess is plural. So do I feel one poor person or multiple poor people?
Speaker A
What's the difference? How do you know one is mess and one is me? And the huffs it says msk and 2184. And the it says me plural.
Speaker A
How do how do you know? Huh? We can pull it up right now. That's what it says.
Speaker A
Sure. Yeah. Huffs 2184 versus watch 18 2184. So I have a I have a somebody from Rumble just paid and I'm going to read it. This is a big big number. Yeah. So they want to know they say Gibbs the
Speaker A
mod. Please read off other 19 facts. 19th amendment to the US Constitution proposed by Congress granting women voting rights upon ratification 1920.
Speaker A
Women's rights which Islam does not give. By the way, feminism is not feminism. It's not feminism. recording.
Speaker A
There's more there's more to the more of the chat says and I I know this is not God divine because it says 1919 prohibition was ratified to the 18th amendment. No. Yeah. Lord, lord. That's a sad day in American history. But so
Speaker A
you saying this has got I'm not saying everything with 19 like for major and that's I never said all that is part of code 19 but I'm saying it's something interesting something considerable. You can ignore it if you
Speaker A
want. I don't need those like the 911 or co 19. I don't I don't I'm just using it says Adele number 19. Her debut album was 2008 and Taylor Swift Dear John included reference being 19. Are these all
Speaker A
I never said every single thing in the world is connected with uh with code 19.
Speaker A
I never made that claim. Yeah. How do you make the distinction? Yeah. I'm trying to understand if it's a divine the Quran. Well, I'm talk we're talking about the 19 and the Quran now.
Speaker A
Well, that was Yeah. Didn't Hold on. Does Jesus also say like except the Bible, he's a prophet. And you know, in the Bible in the Bible, it says God's going to make himself known through works, right? This is code 19 is the
Speaker A
works. Wouldn't that apply to everything then? No. Works. Works are many things. Like Moses splitting the Red Sea and then the miracles that Jesus did, the miracles that Abraham walked out.
Speaker A
So, he split the Red Sea 19 times. No, I never said that. Oh, yeah.
Speaker A
I'm very confused. Yeah, it seems like let's Yeah, let's focus. I'm going to come back again and then um talk more about CO 19.
Speaker A
I'm trying to Sure. Yeah. Next question. I'm sorry. So, in the Huffs. Yeah. Says MS one poor person. The says multiple poor people.
Speaker A
Okay. Yeah. Again, what's what's the issue? One is one person and then one is three or plural three or more. So, is it do we have a trinity here in Sunni Islam now?
Speaker A
And you're debating all these Christians about the Trinity, but you have the Trinity in your own religion.
Speaker A
Wait, I'm sorry. What's the issue? One is singular, one is feed one poor person, other one is feed multiple poor people.
Speaker A
What's the issue? That's not the same thing. So, if you feed a poor person or you decide to feed two poor, we're talking about the law. If I want to follow the minimum, I just want to fulfill the law. I don't I don't want to
Speaker A
do extra. Do I feed one poor person or multiple poor people? Which one is it?
Speaker A
Maybe just remove it. No, I'm I'm serious. Which one? I'm according to you. Yeah. All right. So again, I I need you to give me an argument as to why I shouldn't believe.
Speaker A
But there's different Quran versions. Okay. Again, the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam said he was revealed the Quran in seven.
Speaker A
Seven. Okay. So, so, so, so he got seven different Qurans then? They're not different Quran.
Speaker A
Mskian versus Mk. Is that two different things? One poor person or feed multiple. Is that two different things?
Speaker A
No, they're not different in the sense where they're contradictory. No, it is contradictory. No, it's not.
Speaker A
If I say there's one god and there's three gods, is that contradictory? Yeah. Okay. So, is that contradictory? Yes or no?
Speaker A
If you feed me, have you fed a messen? Yeah. A poor. If you feed me Messakin is you feed multiple poor people.
Speaker A
Okay. Wonder is singular. Read the verse. What? What does it say? In 2184, it's to feed one poor person.
Speaker A
The other one is the should. Read the verse. I want to surah 284. Okay. It says fast a prescribed number of days but whoever of you is ill or on a journey then let them fast an equal number of days after Ramadan. For those
Speaker A
who can only fast with extreme difficulty compensation can be made by feeding a needy person miskin for every day not fasted. But whoever volunteers to give more it is better for them. But that's not law. That's extra. And to
Speaker A
fast is better for you if only in you. But so this when it's talking about law it says msk one poor person the other.
Speaker A
And the it says as it's law so plural. Okay. So but if you feed more that's better for you.
Speaker A
I'm talking about fulfilling the law. I want to satisfy the law. I don't want to do I don't want to do extra. Do I feed one poor person or multiple poor people?
Speaker A
Yeah. Okay. So, okay. The right the difference. Which one is it? One. Do for the law to satisfy the law. Do I feed one poor person or multiple poor people?
Speaker A
Yes. So, you can even if you read me, you still can feed one per poor person by the way.
Speaker A
So, if if the law is feed multiple poor people and I feed only one poor person, I satisfy God's law.
Speaker A
Yeah. Is there uh does it qualify? Does it qualify? What do you does? So if Allah says be be kind to the I'm but this one is specific numbers though one is singular one is plural right so I don't think you understand
Speaker A
how grammar works right so if if Allah says to feed a singular and plural thing yeah so if Allah says to feed the me this is a general plurality right so generally feed the poor people right if Allah says to feed a mess
Speaker A
right this is still the same meaning to feed the poor people okay one so if Allah says to be um kind to uh the m okay the believer okay then you're kind to the believer if Allah says be kind to
Speaker A
the believers okay then you're kind to the believers it's that doesn't change the meaning okay wonderful now okay okay I I I answered the question now I want to go back to 128 and 129 because I have because I have reason right to explain
Speaker A
this not only through grammar right uh but through the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam um and through his teachings okay now you again I again like I said, "I'm not going to let you run." I'm not running. You're the only one. I
Speaker A
I answered No, I answered that question. I answered that question. I answer Okay, I answered that question so you can calm down. Now, we're going to go back, okay? Because I'm very very curious as to what your authority is for
Speaker A
removing verses from the Quran. They're not part of the Quran. I I I want you to the the linguistics breaking the the Quranic code. Um Okay. You said you said chapter 9 should say every yeah the god signature chapter. So
Speaker A
let's say let's say okay was there okay that's a what if I'm going with I'm going what it says what if the cross of Jesus is God you made a claim that should be insured to tabbah signature wonderful your code 19 is screwed
Speaker A
so the the Quranic code so when okay so when the Quran says 74 7431 but the number 19 is going to increase the faithful in faith how is it going to do that or how is it going to
Speaker A
it also says it's going to uh expose the hypocrites with diseases in their heart that's what it's doing and you're fulfilling Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Hold on.
Speaker A
Don't run. I'm not running. We're talking about the same. Oh my god. If you truly believe in what you're saying, then calm down and actually answer it with your chest. What if was in the beginning of the Talba? Okay.
Speaker A
And 20 128 and 129 were not. Show me code 19 through that. Code 19. You're saying if was there?
Speaker A
This is actually the it not being there is actually part of code 19 actually.
Speaker A
Okay. So, so why did you say that it should be there? Huh? Why did you say that it should be there?
Speaker A
Now you're saying that it shouldn't be there. No. No. It shows up 19 chapters later actually God said wait I'm sorry you said it should be there and somebody took it out or Allah took it out or something
Speaker A
but God replaced it in chapter um 19 chapters later. Okay. So it shouldn't be there.
Speaker A
God um God didn't put it there because because the Quran because that chapter had two versed it.
Speaker A
No I'm I'm asking you why it's not there. No, you didn't ask me that. I'm you're the one who already made the claim that it should be there. You made the claim it shouldn't but God put it somewhere
Speaker A
else for in in the spot in the spot of of the beginning. God put it 19 chapters later and chapter 27 in the spot.
Speaker A
So it shouldn't be there. So So you lied. I didn't lie. Should it be there or should it not be there?
Speaker A
Uh God God replaces it. Should it be there now? Should we recite it with or no?
Speaker A
She said no. Okay. So then you can see chapter but God replap 19 chapters later.
Speaker A
Okay. Uh, where do you get that idea? Huh? Where do you get that? Because it's that's what's there. From the missing bismillah of chapter 9 to the extra bismillah of chapter 27, there are precisely 19 chapters. And that
Speaker A
follows the total of the chapter numbers from 9 to 27. 9 + 10 + 11 + 12 and and so on + 26 + 27 is 342, which is 19 * 18.
Speaker A
Coincidence? It's all part of code 19. Actually, the signature thing is part of code 19 too.
Speaker A
All of it. I told you the whole Quran there should not be I just want to be clear um just as the Quran is with God replaced the 19 chapters later okay why did he okay why didn't he put
Speaker A
to flag the chapter to flag it as a as a red flag it's like if there's a bunch of documents and then but one of them is is missing my signature you're like oh something's wrong here right right
Speaker A
okay so so Allah removed he didn't remove it he didn't put there. He never signed off on it.
Speaker A
Oh, did he sign Did he sign off? Okay. Did he sign off on 128 and 129?
Speaker A
No. No. Okay. Why is it there? Why is it there? Cuz it was added in.
Speaker A
It's like if you give me a Quran right now and I had a page that says Jesus is God. Are you going to say why? Why is that there? Cuz somebody added it in.
Speaker A
Same with exact same thing with the with the Bible thing. Okay. The word of God is not corrupted, but the physical text we have in our hands, that's what's corrupted. Same thing with the uh with the different Quran
Speaker A
versions. And even I'll bring it to back to the the which Quran version doesn't have 128 and 129.
Speaker A
I never I never said that there's one. I never said there's one that doesn't have it.
Speaker A
Oh. Oh. So you don't have the Quran is the closest. You don't have the Quran.
Speaker A
The Huffs is the closest to the prophet. The We do have it. We have access to it through code 19. The Quran says in chapter 852.
Speaker A
You're making the claim that there are multiple Qurans but they all have 128 and 129. Well, the multiple are the extra ones are not from God. That's human.
Speaker A
Which one is the non-extra one? The nonextra mainly anything the huffs is the closest with the I didn't ask you which is the closest. I asked you which one is the non-extra.
Speaker A
The one that doesn't have the corrupted version without the two. Yeah. Which hops without the two verses.
Speaker A
So just to be clear what you're saying. You're saying every Quran in existence today is no bueno.
Speaker A
Sorry. What do you mean? So yeah, you're no sorry. Like what? What do you mean? I know, buo. Just what do you mean?
Speaker A
So I I guess the claim is if you're like a Quran only guy and you're saying all I think it's 40 plus variations of the Quran all Yeah. 34 have all have all have these verses in there.
Speaker A
You're saying that every single one of those is wrong. I'm saying the Let me qualify. The Huffs is the closest to what was revealed. The Huffs because it has the two verses.
Speaker A
Huh? How do you know? Because of Code 19. But now I'm trying to I'm going to bring it back cuz we focus too much on Wait, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Okay. Again, what's the difference between the 19
Speaker A
calculation of HS and Hen? Yeah, WH actually uh distorts it with I think it's and 50. Yeah, this is a good one. And I believe it's 5724.
Speaker A
The Ha is not there in but it's there. It's there in the in the Huffs.
Speaker A
Oh. So, so why is the watch missing a word? Why is one of the Quran vers one of your uh like same Qurans missing missing a word?
Speaker A
Can show me? Yeah. The huffs hops in and the watch 57:24. I'm gonna give you y'all do about three more minutes and then we're gonna go to closing time.
Speaker A
Can you give me make it 10? All right. I can make it five and then we can Wait, wait, wait. No, no. In in that case, no. No. In that we we can't close until you give me a good reason why. 128
Speaker A
and 129. I gave you answered you many times. No, don't hold the Why is the watch missing a word? Why is it missing the ha?
Speaker A
Yeah. Why is the watch missing a word? Yeah. Haha. What's the word before it?
Speaker A
Why is it missing a word? What's the word right? What's the word right before it? God. Allah. Okay. Is Allah. Uh, those are two different words. Allah and obviously God and here are two different things. Yeah. If I say he referred to
Speaker A
the moderate, am I talking about God? No. So, it's two different words. Okay. One Well, you don't really understand the Arabic. And two, it's missing a word. Different dialect. No.
Speaker A
No. Again. One is a different dialect. It's missing a word. It's missing. Is it missing a word? Yes or no? No, it's not missing word. It's not missing. Hold on.
Speaker A
Yeah. Let it respond one at a time so it's faster. Go ahead. All right.
Speaker A
Yeah. No, it's not missing a word. So, Allah. Okay. And Allah. Okay. Those are different dialects.
Speaker A
I'm not saying Allah. I'm saying the word ha. Just the two letters is not there in the wash. But it's there in the Why is the wash missing a full word?
Speaker A
Yeah. Because why is it why is it missing a word again? It's not missing a word. It's re is the h is the ha there in h but not in Yes. Yeah. Let her back.
Speaker A
Okay. So Allah who right means Allah is Allah he etc. Right? Okay that's a dialect instead of saying Allah you're going to end up actually reciting it anyway. It's just not uh written down.
Speaker A
It's not missing. That's how Allah revealed it. Can you prove that it wasn't how Allah revealed it?
Speaker A
That's the question for you. It's missing a word. So that shows that there's a textual corruption.
Speaker A
You have to prove that it's missing. I'm showing you textual corruption. No. So missing implies that it should be there and it's not. Can you The huffs has it.
Speaker A
The watch does not have it. So, which one did God reveal to the prophet? Did he Did he reveal both or just one?
Speaker A
Okay, guess what? Yeah. Yeah. They both have 128 and 129. Can you show me which one?
Speaker A
We're not talking about See, see how she's running? Yeah. See how she's running? I already answered. Okay. Again. So, I need to go back to this so we can I'm not going to let I'm going to be here all day. No. Again,
Speaker A
do all the counts. That would be a different debate. Uh, no. I want you to show me where code 19 is the criterion.
Speaker A
Code 19 and 7431. It says the Quran is going to prove or sorry that 19 is going to prove the Qurans from God. It's going to show the Jews and the Christians that this is divine. It's going to increase
Speaker A
the faithful in faith and remove all tradition. How? How? How? How? How? That's a question for you. Through through the miracle if you don't believe it's the miracle. Now I'm going to ask you, how is 19 supposed to show the Jews
Speaker A
and the Christians that it's Why do you always run? Can you I answered you. I answer code 19 through the miracle.
Speaker A
Okay. Show me the miracle. I want to I want to see the miracle. Easy. The whole Quran's coded by the number 19.
Speaker A
You want me to go one one by one? Is one is one of the miracles of the Quran preservation? That's the Yeah, the miracle preserves the Quran. Shows us what was originally revealed.
Speaker A
Okay. Do we have any preserved Quran through recitation or through text without 128 and 129?
Speaker A
Just cuz it was added in doesn't mean can Oh my god, there's many different uh Quran versions. How do you know which one is the true one? In the in the Huffs in 37:12, it says that Muhammad wonders
Speaker A
and the 3712 it says that God wonders or or gets surprised. That's two different things. It's the same word.
Speaker A
Who gets surprised? It's a is for one. It's spelled the same way. It's how you pronounce So who if I say I set up the table versus you set up the table. Is that the same thing?
Speaker A
Or Muhammad getting surprised versus God getting surprised. Oh my god. You have no idea about Arabic. There's no there's no difference in the words. It's how you're pronounced again.
Speaker A
So Muhammad and God are one. If Muhammad wonders, God wonders too. Cuz we got another trinity here. We got another trinity.
Speaker A
Okay. 128 129. Can you just see keeps running? She can't answer the Quran. We're not talking about Okay.
Speaker A
We're talking about the your different Qurans. Okay. I want to know about the real Quran that doesn't have 128 and 12. You agree the Quran is tax corrupted. You agree that there's different vers you there's different versions. You can see there's
Speaker A
different versra. Let me try to rephrase this here. All right. All right. All right. All right. Real quick. Okay.
Speaker A
Here's the problem I'm having as a lay person. Okay. Uh I So you're you're claiming to be a Quran only guy. Okay. And you're you're saying that this co 19 is the key to unlocking the Quran. Okay. Now, uh the
Speaker A
the issue that I keep coming back to is when whenever she's asked you which Quran follows this, you can't you don't seem to have a single Quran to point to to be like this is the code 19 Quran.
Speaker A
But you say that you say the closest, but like I say, I'm a Christian, right?
Speaker A
I could be like the New American Standard is closest to King James, but they're both the Bible. They both have both these verses.
Speaker A
You have a criteria. Do you have a code though for your Bible? No, no, you don't. And this is why the Quran is superior uh to the Bible because it has an error correction code.
Speaker A
Sure. I I mean you could make that. That's not the argument that I'm asking you about here.
Speaker A
The argument that I'm asking you is so let's say like I was a Protestant like a Baptist and I wanted to argue with the Catholics. I would be like, "Okay, due to this council, due to this authority, due to whatever is in the Bible, the
Speaker A
Bible only recognize these XYZ." I have something to go to and say, "Hey, this is why I'm in there." and and I have a Bible I can point to as a protest 66 books or if I'm a Catholic I point to
Speaker A
whatever the number is in the Catholic Bible, right? However, with what you're saying is, oh, I'm I'm a Quran only guy, but I don't have a single Quran that matches what I'm Hold on. Here's here's the issue with
Speaker A
the Quran is Quran only. When they say we follow the Quran alone, yeah, ask them which Quran the same. That's what we're asking about.
Speaker A
They have the same dilemma. But but we have an answer. We can reject all the fake versions. We can reject all of them unlike the Quran. Tell me what's the answer. Which one doesn't have 128 and 129?
Speaker A
The hops without them? Does the huffs have 128 and 129? That was added in there and we can prove it.
Speaker A
Prove it. It was added in there. So So you don't have history. You know, according to the Quran, according we do according to your own hadith, the two verses were were never they were not mass transmitted. It was
Speaker A
only from one person that you're not a hadith rejector. I'm saying I'm quoting as an authority for you. When you quote the letters of Paul for the Christians, does that mean that you believe in the letters of Paul?
Speaker A
Obviously not. It's called an internal critique. Okay. Okay. Show me the hadith that says 128 129 should not be there.
Speaker A
Easy one second. Okay. A second. Photos. Almost there. Right here. I got it. All right. Start with uh Bkari 4679.
Speaker A
Oh, brother. There's a cool vibe. Just look it up because if I if I leave this, I'm going to lose it. All right.
Speaker A
What is it? Bkari 4679. There's like 10 different hadiths that that that show that those two verses were not mass transmitted.
Speaker A
They were found with only one person. And then the criteria was there has to be at least two witnesses.
Speaker A
Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Okay. Who is the Some of them are longer than the other, but they're short ones. They'll say the same thing. I can show it to you. It's in the green. You can hold it if you
Speaker A
want. I have. You see You see where it says Bkari where I have the quote in English. You want to read it? Verify there. Is it long though?
Speaker A
Uh, it's only about a paragraph. Read it. Yeah, read it. Verify that there has come unto you a messenger Muhammad from amongst yourselves. It grieavves.
Speaker A
Wait, those are the two ver. No, I'm talking about the hadith. Okay. Yeah. Uh, some alkar 679. Yeah.
Speaker A
Is a hadith in the book of commentary on the Quran. It is narrated by Zah.
Speaker A
Okay. Yeah, I better butcher these names. First prophet describes revelations and describes the compilers of the Quran under Abu Bakar after the battle of Yamama. Um summary of the hadith after heavy loss of among the Kora those who
Speaker A
had memorized the Quran at Yamama Umar urged Abu Bakar to collect Quran into a single written compilation featuring further fear and further losses. Abu Bakar initially hesitated because the prophet had not done so but eventually agreed. He assigned the task to Zuben
Speaker A
alit. Uh collected the material from written fragments including parch fragments parchments scapular bones palm stocks from memories of those who memorizing found two verses al 9128- 9129 only within what whatever the name is it was found with only one person.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. And the the criteria according to the um to your hadith is supposed to be two witnesses. Let's only add one. And then there's more. I think Wait, no. Two witnesses for what?
Speaker A
For for the verse. No, no, no. Two witnesses for what? For the verse. What do you mean? Two witnesses for the verse.
Speaker A
Two two witnesses to testify to the verse. No. Two witnesses to testify that this manuscript was written in the pro in the um the presence of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam.
Speaker A
The verses. Okay. Okay. Where does it say that it did not exist in the Quran? 4679 says it was found with only one person. Do 4986 as well.
Speaker A
What's the context of this? A context. Hold on. 4986. You respond and then we do need to go to closing.
Speaker A
This one's a little long. Uh 4989. All right. Okay. Okay. It says uh narrated zb this is bkari 4989. It says Abu Bakr sent for me and said you used to write the divine revelations for God's messenger. So you
Speaker A
said search for the Quran and collect it. I started searching for the Quran till I found the last two verses of surahba chapter 9 with and I could not find these verses with anybody other than him. They were
Speaker A
textually orally you want to read the whole thing. They were they were barely there has come to Oh just reciting the verse.
Speaker A
Okay. Mhm. So it end here. What were you saying? Yeah. Textually or orally? So I found the last um it would be textually okay was Abu Bakr?
Speaker A
According to who? According to the sunnah that you're quoting yeah I'm quoting as an authority for you. Sure.
Speaker A
Okay. So why was it not found were the companions? Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Speaker A
Okay. So the Quran right is memorized orally transmitted right? It's not oral transmission. Okay. And when did Abu Bakr collect these?
Speaker A
When did Abu Bakr collect it? After the prophet's death. Sometime after how long? How long?
Speaker A
A few years or so. Okay. Okay. One year. One year. Yeah. Okay. Make your argument.
Speaker A
Okay. So, did Zade say these verses did not exist in the Quran that he himself memorized?
Speaker A
He said he could not find these verses with anybody other textually. So Abu Bakr right who already memorizes the Quran said to collect all of the ones that are written down right so they can have a master copy. Okay now
Speaker A
they already know the verses of surah TBA they already know it by heart. Now they're looking for somebody who wrote it down in the presence of the prophet.
Speaker A
So as nobody says they cannot find the verses with anybody other than him. So if I say I I I could not find this. It means I could not find it anyway. They had never heard about it before. They
Speaker A
they had never heard it. So that that would count. No, no, no. You just added that. Show me where it says that.
Speaker A
I didn't add it. It says he had never found it. I could not find these verses with anybody other than him. He never So never heard about it.
Speaker A
So they memorize the Quran. He wants Do you know what sah means? The pages.
Speaker A
Yes. Okay. So he wants to scroll. Right. Right. All of them. Okay. That were written in the presence of the prophet.
Speaker A
Yeah. It says that here. And then yes, absolutely you can present that. And also about the oral transmission thing. If the Quran is memorized and preserved orally, how come the sheep ate ate two verses and they were not able to
Speaker A
put it back in via memory? If the Quran is preserved orally, I can pull up the hadith as well.
Speaker A
The sheep ate two verses. Yeah. The goat ate two two pages or two verses.
Speaker A
Okay. Uh I can pull it up for you unless you know you probably know what I'm referring to, but I'll s you want me to source it?
Speaker A
Yeah. So, okay. So, you're running from this. So, you can't prove that this is I'm show you all the Quran is not preserved orally cuz you're talking about oral, not oral versus written.
Speaker A
Where does it say that it wasn't preserved orally? I don't know why you're conflating Quran is written tradition. Yeah.
Speaker A
With what was memorized. All right. The Quran says 25. It was written tradition. We're not going in circles around cuz I got a new go at two verses.
Speaker A
A hadith. You sure you don't? Are the verses 128 to 129? The about the goat.
Speaker A
Are you talking about talking about the verses that the goat ate? Yeah. No, it's talking about the supposed stoning and then the the one about Okay. Wonderful. Oh, so we're at 128 to 129. Oh my god. No, stop talking about
Speaker A
that. I I feel like we're running a circle. Actually, closings. I'm going to give you two minutes to close. Close and I'm going to go to Tina and then we're going to wrap this. Go ahead.
Speaker A
Okay. So, yeah. Um, the Quran condemns the hadith by name many times like 45:6 7750 7185 when it says and which hadith after God and his revelations will you believe in? So, the Quran condemns the hadith by name. says
Speaker A
which hadith after you believe in the Muslim most Muslims as Sunni Shia and stuff they believe in what a hadith after the Quran which God condemns and the Quran says over and over again it is perfectly uh perfectly detailed like 614
Speaker A
it says um you know should you seek a judge other than God when he has uh you know sent down to you the book you know perfectly and fully detailed and explained um and then in chapter 12 verse 111 in the Arabic the Quran says
Speaker A
it's a it's a detailed explanation of all things and then in the middle it says this is it says which means this is not a fabricated So God is mocking the hadith by by name.
Speaker A
It's like imagine if I give you the Quran and I say, "Don't worry, bro. This is not the Bible. I I would be mocking the Bible." So God is mocking the hadith here. And in 39:23, God says that this
Speaker A
is the the Quran is the best hadith. God has sent to us the best hadith. Um and then in chapter 316, it says that there are people that in the Arabic it says they hold up. They uphold baseless and
Speaker A
vain hadith. So the Quran condemns the hadith by name. Many times it calls it out prematurely 250 years before its arrival. And the the Quran says in chapter 2 vers 256 no compulsion in religion in the hadith in Bkari 6922
Speaker A
Bkari 6930 Bkari 317 it says you have to kill whoever leaves the religion. So very you know religion of peace. And then uh in the in the hadith it says in Bkari 6 uh Bkari 5133 Bkari 5134 the
Speaker A
prophet married Aisha at 6 and had sex with her when she was nine. And in Bkari 6130 it says that she was playing with dolls. And even the commentators agree that she was prepubescent. And then the Quran in chapter 4:6 says um it gives
Speaker A
the criterion for marriage. It says they have to be fully they have to be mature at a marriageable age. They have to be able to handle money, wealth, property.
Speaker A
Obviously a six or 9year-old does not fit that criterion. The Quran says in 482, anything that's not from God will have many contradictions in it. The hadith, not only does it contradict itself, it contradicts the Quran as well. I showed some examples and even in
Speaker A
chapter 242 um it says that you have to you lash the adulterers. In the hadith it says you got to stone the adulterers to death. Um in the in the hadith in Abu D 4482, I believe it says you have to
Speaker A
whoever drinks alcohol three or four times, you have to kill them. But but in the Quran, go ahead. Sorry. So yeah 4482 it says you have to kill whoever drinks alcohol three or four times. The Quran again no
Speaker A
compulsion on religion and whoever wants to disbelieve let them disbelieve. It says it's haram to drink alcohol but it doesn't give a penalty for it. Um and then again 10 seconds.
Speaker A
10 seconds. Okay. But yeah, overall yeah the Quran is perfectly detailed and uh clear and explained that Quran says over and over again. Why do we need something else to explain the the clear book according to chapter 11 verse1 um 1211
Speaker A
614 and then uh many other and 2951-52 it says is it not sufficient for them that we have revealed to you the book.
Speaker A
All right. Wrap it up just the Quran says yeah 2951 through 52 is a very good one.
Speaker A
All right. You got two minutes to do a closing here and then we'll wrap it. Go ahead.
Speaker A
Okay. Yeah. So, what's ironic is that you keep talking about the Quran being sufficient, that the Quran was uh revealed perfectly, it was preserved, um that it doesn't contradict, that it's fully detailed, right? But then you said that it was missing. You said it was
Speaker A
missing uh penalties. You said it was um unclear about uh the uh the stoning. You said that Oh, and my favorite is that you said that it's corrupted.
Speaker A
That there are two verses in there that you can't prove don't belong. Right? And and then yet you claim that the Quran is your authority, that you believe in the word of Allah, that he perfectly preserved it, and you can't
Speaker A
show me a single Quran that doesn't have those two verses simply because it doesn't add up to 19, which you completely made that up. Nobody ever said that code 19 was a secret code to uh preserve the Quran. It clearly didn't
Speaker A
work according to you, right? You said that uh surah Toba shouldn't have um that it should have. And then when I pointed out that if it did your code 19 would fail again then you conceded and said no no it definitely should not be
Speaker A
there. So you have nothing to stand on except for your own desires, right? Um you follow the hadith of some crazy man named Khalifa, right? Uh you don't follow the hadith of the prophet which Allah said that he sent him to teach the
Speaker A
Quran, right? And Allah said that he would preserve the remembrance. He would preserve the Quran, right? But you said that the Quran is rejected. I mean is uh corrupted uh just because some crazy guy said that 19 is the secret code. So
Speaker A
yeah, I think this is all right. Thank you so much. Uh Brad, uh Brad, you want to pull up the super chats for me, brother?
Speaker A
And this is live streamed, right? Yes, sir. Can I get a copy of this?
Speaker A
Uh it'll be posted on the website as soon as we're done being live. All right, Ali Gamer. Uh oh, excuse me. Ali, thank you once again for giving us so much money today for five pounds. Lol.
Speaker A
No way he said that. He thinks hadith only means hadith of the prophet. All right, Ali again. Once again, thank you. He doesn't know the difference between between Rahim and Alaram. Uh has a very tenious graph of grammar. speaks very
Speaker A
tubious broken Lebanese Iraqi accent. Okay. All right. Ally with 20 20 pounds. This guy's an absolute buffoon. There's different recitations of um and I'm sure I'm butchering this guy's name. I apologize. Alf God's responses to the prophet uh due to ease recitation for
Speaker A
wider nations 4991. All of them are from Allah by design. All right. Thank you for that. Uh, Opi Suual Wall, I'm I'm sorry I'm butchering your name. I apologize again.
Speaker A
I think this is true Islam. It's is the code 19. It is supernatural. Okay, thank you for that. Uh, ZZ12216 msad agent in the room. Hey, if there's a mad agent, I need a 7K check. Um, Ali Omar, oh, who have, oh, you have
Speaker A
believed, obey Allah, obey the messenger and those in authority among you. Quran 559. We lost the second half of that, but thank you for that as well. Uh, is that all Bradley?
Speaker A
One more. Oh, one more. We got some jewels from Janice. Thank you so, but we appreciate them.
Speaker A
And that's it. All right. This has been another exciting episode of the digital social hour here at five o'clock. We have an exciting debate uh going down. I believe um we have um Sean, why don't you come tell me who the five o'clock
Speaker A
debate is? Yeah, you're giving me such a blessing. Yeah, tell us who the five o'clock debate is.
Speaker A
Yeah, just kneel down, you tell. It's too late. We have Orthodox Muslim versus Wi. It's a It's a Sunni Muslim versus Quran only. Uh it's going to be an amazing debate. I hope you like that last little bit of entertainment. Code
Speaker A
19. If you don't know about it, ask somebody. Yeah, I bet we're maybe we'll hear about it more then and they can get more depth. I don't know. I I'm still confused on whether or not it's the Da
Speaker A
Vinci Code or not. uh but uh you think Adele's album was called 19 for no reason.
Speaker A
Well, you know, I know that the National Socialist 19 point and the uh their plan was to get rid of uh Roman law and start doing German law. So, lot of questions, lot of questions for me here. I don't
Speaker A
have the answers. I am just a lay person. Uh but this has been a fun. But on that note, thanks to all our debating.
Speaker A
Jesus never lived. Jesus is a mythological figure. No, there's over 25,000 manuscripts. Revelation 22:13. Jesus identifies himself as I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. You're describing yourself in
Speaker A
the form of a woman here regarding the weight. Like the gospel of Thomas. Why isn't that in there? Because it was written after Thomas was dead.
Speaker A
He doesn't. It's going to be AI robots with no conscience. He will gun these people down like pigs.
Speaker A
But being an adult means paying for your kids. Even if you don't have sole custody, even if you don't have partial custody, you're going to get humiliated even more just like your prophet did. I'm going humiliate your religion. I'm going
Speaker A
humiliate your god and your profit right now again. So, let's continue to talk. Look, you were born a man.
Speaker A
Yes. Do you know how much money I had to spend to look like this to be accepted by society? Over 100 grand.
Speaker A
If that's hair, what's this? Uglier hair. No, it's not ugly hair. What you have is probably the same thing a doll.
Speaker A
Cuz you I struggled to see how you can't accept that Joseph Smith is a true prophet.
Speaker A
That's $50,000 that there are some scientists that said human beings went one step. It was fish and then gave birth to homo sapiens. That is what with genetic testing we could see like the whole family tree of all life on
Speaker A
earth can be traced through genetic testing. You cannot follow the Quran in and of itself by itself. For example, there's more proof on the existence of Jesus than it's proof on the history of Julius Caesar.
Speaker A
The reason why you made Jesus white cuz Yah would never serve a black king.
Speaker A
Yeah, but dogs can do that. Dogs make Well, they give birth, too. Like, it's not that big of a deal. Jesus died. If he died in a real and not idiosyncratic way, therefore Jesus is not God because God. So Jesus here, as you just
Speaker A
admitted, unqualified, claims to be the first and the last. Their hospitals, their schools, their moss, their churches, their graveyards, their roads. Some of them have been hit during the route to those.
Speaker A
You made yourself a laughing stock in front of everybody. At first, hold on just one second. At first, your your criteria was a commandment that you don't think is good or godlike. But then, is it possible that God is okay with you marrying,
Speaker A
let's say, a three-year-old? Stop the personal attacks. Don't ask me about why I don't have kids.
Speaker A
Look at you, you savage man. Skinny arms out of safety. Yeah, you are. People of the Bible that you have conceded and quoted actually said, "Yes, we saw the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam." Don't you out. I can outell you. This guy needs
Speaker A
But do you realize I'm not ducking? I'm sitting there talking to them. I'm spinning around. That has nothing to do with the topic.
Speaker A
It has everything to do with the topic. No, you just lied. You said they're on a landline. The astronauts weren't on the left.
Topics:
Islam vs Christianity
religious debate
Jesus historicity
Quran authenticity
Christianity evidence
Islam evidence
interfaith discussion
religious manuscripts
theology debate
Digital Social Hour
